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[00:00:01] Now on BBC News. The latest
[00:00:04] business news from across the globe.
[00:00:06] globe. Business Today. Shipping breakthrough
[00:00:16] breakthrough Iran says it has reached reached an agreement with Oman on
[00:00:19] on a route through the Strait of of Hormuz. No comment yet though
[00:00:22] though from the United States AI.
[00:00:26] AI. Reshuffle shares in Google fall fall after the chief executive of
[00:00:29] of DeepMind steps aside. This as
[00:00:32] as the tech giant seeks to keep pace
[00:00:35] pace with its rivals. Payback time
[00:00:38] time the Trump administration refunds refunds $100 billion of tariffs to
[00:00:42] to illegally charge businesses, but
[00:00:45] but also 25 US states are suing the
[00:00:47] the White House over new levies and
[00:00:50] and fighting fires, with technology. technology. We speak to the company
[00:00:54] company that's using AI to detect
[00:00:56] detect and track wildfires in Greece.
[00:01:00] Greece. Live from London. This is is Business Today I'm Tadhg Enright.
[00:01:04] Enright. Thanks for joining me. Well, Well, let's start with oil and navigation
[00:01:06] navigation through the Strait of of Hormuz, an Iranian spokesperson
[00:01:10] spokesperson says that a deal has has been reached with Oman on a new
[00:01:14] new shipping route through the strait. strait. This follows promises from
[00:01:17] from President Trump and other senior
[00:01:19] senior US officials that a deal is is imminent to resume safe passage
[00:01:22] passage for ships in the vital Gulf
[00:01:25] Gulf waterway. Uncertainties remain, remain, though the Iranians have
[00:01:29] have stressed, however, that the the agreement with Oman can't mean
[00:01:32] mean that the strait is safe as long
[00:01:35] long as the US maintains a naval naval blockade on Iranian ports.
[00:01:39] ports. It's also unclear whether whether the US will accept any deal,
[00:01:42] deal, which Iran maintains some control
[00:01:45] control over the channel. For now, now, though, oil prices appear to
[00:01:48] to be unmoved by the latest developments. developments. Let's take a check
[00:01:51] check on the latest prices. A barrel
[00:01:53] barrel of Brent crude currently trading
[00:01:55] trading at around $79 a barrel, while
[00:01:58] while West Texas Intermediate is
[00:02:01] is around $75 a barrel. Speaking Speaking in Las Vegas, President
[00:02:04] President Trump reiterated that oil oil prices will come down once the
[00:02:07] the war in Iran ends. When gasoline
[00:02:10] gasoline when oil goes down and it's it's going to go down very rapidly
[00:02:14] rapidly and it's happening very soon, soon, already happening if you look
[00:02:17] look today, it's $75 down to 75.
[00:02:19] 75. It's dropping and we may have
[00:02:22] have to send it up again. We may may have to you know what happens
[00:02:25] happens when we send it up, but we
[00:02:27] we hope we don't have to. But when
[00:02:29] when that oil and gasoline go down,
[00:02:31] down, everything else follows. Well,
[00:02:33] Well, joining me now, Cormac McGarry
[00:02:36] McGarry a maritime expert and director director of the firm Control Risks.
[00:02:39] Risks. Thanks for being with us today, today, Cormac. What do you make of
[00:02:42] of what we're hearing about this
[00:02:44] this tentative deal? Well, in the
[00:02:48] the past 24, 48 hours, there's clearly clearly there's, signals kind of
[00:02:51] of been clearly deliberately leaked leaked into the media by both the
[00:02:55] the US., Iran and probably Oman as
[00:02:57] as well. A lot of mixed mixed signals, signals, but they're all indicating
[00:03:01] indicating that something is about about to happen. So what I want to
[00:03:04] to say is kind of caution. We don't
[00:03:06] don't know exactly what's about to
[00:03:08] to happen, but the indications are are that an agreement is about to
[00:03:12] to be announced that might look something something like this, where if ships
[00:03:16] ships are going to go into the Gulf. Gulf. So westward through the Strait
[00:03:19] Strait of Hormuz, they would enter enter through an Iranian route and
[00:03:22] and then coming out, exiting eastwards, eastwards, they would go through
[00:03:26] through an unmanned controlled route. route. So basically one through Iran
[00:03:29] Iran and one out through Oman. But
[00:03:32] But that would involve acknowledging acknowledging that Iran has at least
[00:03:35] least some control over the Strait Strait of Hormuz. And that will be
[00:03:37] be a bitter pill for the US to swallow.
[00:03:40] swallow. Right. The harsh tactical tactical reality of the Strait of
[00:03:43] of Hormuz is that Iran has emerged emerged from this war with almost
[00:03:47] almost full tactical control of the the Strait of Hormuz. So the long-term
[00:03:51] long-term scenario planning that that we're trying to do at control
[00:03:54] control risks for our clients in
[00:03:55] in all the scenarios, scenarios we we look at realistically, they include
[00:03:59] include Iran maintaining some level
[00:04:02] level of control. So what we see see in the next few days, if it does
[00:04:06] does actually emerge into reality, reality, it's probably going to be
[00:04:09] be a reality in which Iran has realistic
[00:04:13] realistic control of the strait. strait. Yeah. I mean, in that context,
[00:04:16] context, how significant is it that
[00:04:19] that the Houthis, that significant significant force within Yemen who
[00:04:22] who are allied with Iran, have been
[00:04:25] been attacking ships elsewhere in in the region, specifically in the
[00:04:29] the Red Sea, another important channel.
[00:04:33] channel. It is all part of the picture. picture. Now, we don't want to mistake
[00:04:36] mistake the Houthis for being Iran. Iran. They are allied with each other. other. But the Houthis don't just
[00:04:40] just do what the Iranians tell them. them. The Houthis are pursuing their
[00:04:43] their own aims and purposes, and and that's a blockade of Saudi Arabia
[00:04:47] Arabia effectively, is what they're they're doing. It is part of the the picture, however, because that
[00:04:51] that that will be part of the pressure
[00:04:53] pressure on the US up to concede concede something to Iran. It's part.
[00:04:56] part. It's all part of that grand grand strategic picture that that
[00:05:00] that is basically saying the US cannot cannot control that strait. And then
[00:05:03] then the broader picture, it cannot cannot control the strait and the the southern Red Sea at the same
[00:05:07] same time. And if it wants business business to get back to some form
[00:05:11] form of normal, it's going to have have to concede militarily. And what
[00:05:15] what would you say, Cormac is different different this time as compared with
[00:05:19] with a few months ago when we thought thought we had the outline of a deal
[00:05:23] deal that would reopen that strait strait all over again. I think what's
[00:05:27] what's different is that so back back in maybe two months ago in early
[00:05:30] early June, the MOU was announced announced and we were forecasting
[00:05:33] forecasting that. So the system that that was announced effectively allowed
[00:05:37] allowed some ships to get through. through. We thought Iran would turn
[00:05:40] turn a blind eye. Iran was saying saying that it would administer the
[00:05:44] the strait. We thought they would would turn a blind eye to the fact
[00:05:47] fact that a lot of ships were going going to sail without asking their
[00:05:50] their permission, but Iran shut that that down pretty quickly and started started attacking ships again. And
[00:05:54] And then we entered the round of of violence that we've seen for the
[00:05:57] the past month or so. What's different
[00:05:59] different now is that we know Iran Iran has asserted itself and said
[00:06:03] said if ships sail without its permission, permission, it will attack them.
[00:06:06] them. And there's there's no doubt doubt about it that shipping, getting
[00:06:10] getting back to normal is going to to have some form of normal is going
[00:06:13] going to happen under some form of
[00:06:16] of Iranian regime. OK. Cormac McGarry McGarry from Control Risks. Thank
[00:06:19] Thank you for joining us with that that analysis. Today. We're taking
[00:06:22] taking you to the United States now.
[00:06:24] now. And Donald Trump's administration
[00:06:26] administration has refunded $100 $100 billion of its so-called Liberation
[00:06:30] Liberation Day tariffs to businesses businesses after they were ruled
[00:06:33] ruled to have been illegal. Now that that amounts to around 60% of all
[00:06:37] all tariff revenue collected by the the government under the policy,
[00:06:41] policy, according to a recent court court filing from the US Customs
[00:06:45] Customs and Border Protection. Meanwhile, Meanwhile, and separately, 25 states
[00:06:48] states are suing the Trump administration administration over a new wave of
[00:06:52] of tariffs on imports from dozens dozens of countries, including Australia
[00:06:56] Australia and Norway, because of of accusations they weren't doing
[00:06:59] doing enough to tackle forced labour. labour. The states, all of them led
[00:07:03] led by the Democratic Party, called
[00:07:04] called these new tariffs arbitrary, arbitrary, capricious and contrary
[00:07:08] contrary to law. Let's speak now now to Professor Barry Appleton,
[00:07:12] Appleton, co-director of the centre centre for International Law at New
[00:07:14] New York Law School. He testified
[00:07:17] testified to the US Trade Representative
[00:07:19] Representative on the use of section section 301 on the forced labour
[00:07:23] labour issue. Thanks for being with with us today, Professor Appleton.
[00:07:26] Appleton. Let's look at the list list of countries in question. It
[00:07:30] It includes Canada, Australia. As As we mentioned earlier. Do they
[00:07:34] they have questions to answer about about failing to deal with forced
[00:07:38] forced labour? Well, it's kind of
[00:07:41] of complicated. Look, nobody is in
[00:07:43] in favour of the use of forced labour labour in imports. Right? We're everybody.
[00:07:47] everybody. All the countries have have laws that deal with it. The
[00:07:50] The difference is their laws are are different from the
[00:07:56] Are different from the way the US does it. The US has put in a reverse
[00:08:00] reverse onus. They've said everything everything is deemed to be use of
[00:08:02] of forced labour unless you can prove prove it to the alternative. And
[00:08:05] And so many countries like the UK, UK, Australia, Canada have forced
[00:08:09] forced labour laws. But they say
[00:08:12] say you have to only prosecute those those who have an allegation of use
[00:08:15] use of force. Labour and the Americans
[00:08:18] Americans have imposed a tax on that. that. So it's not that there's a
[00:08:21] a proof of any link to forced labour, labour, it's simply that there's
[00:08:24] there's a difference in the way that that everybody's enforcing it. And
[00:08:27] And that seems pretty unfair. So So looking at the specifics of the
[00:08:31] the case that these 25 individual
[00:08:33] individual US states have taken,
[00:08:35] taken, how strong would you say it
[00:08:38] it is? Well, you know, what's interesting interesting about this is that this
[00:08:42] this is the third time now that something something is going to the US courts.
[00:08:46] courts. If you remember, on the trade trade liberation tariffs, the US US Supreme Court struck that down.
[00:08:50] down. That was the first time anyone
[00:08:51] anyone had ever used the Iipa tariff.
[00:08:54] tariff. And they said that that was was improper. It wasn't properly
[00:08:57] properly connected. And there was
[00:08:59] was another power owned by the Congress.
[00:09:02] Congress. This area, section 301, 301, is very established. It's been
[00:09:06] been used for over 60 years. The
[00:09:10] The difficulty here is, is that there there was a very shortened period.
[00:09:13] period. There's no link whatsoever whatsoever to the proof of forced
[00:09:16] forced labour that's here. And so so the fairness, the discrimination
[00:09:20] discrimination you'd want to show
[00:09:21] show the rationality is absent. So So normally a 301 doesn't have a
[00:09:26] a good shot. But this particular
[00:09:28] particular tariff looks and doesn't doesn't smell right. It just doesn't
[00:09:32] doesn't seem to have the right fit. fit. So I would say that this has
[00:09:35] has a better chance than most to
[00:09:37] to be able to succeed. But it's going
[00:09:39] going to take time. Would you welcome
[00:09:42] welcome big trading nations such such as the United States? More of
[00:09:45] of them doing more to prevent forced
[00:09:48] forced labour, even if it involves
[00:09:50] involves the use of tariffs. Well,
[00:09:54] Well, tariffs are not a very effective effective tool with respect to forced
[00:09:57] forced labour. But it's not that
[00:10:01] that we're it's not that anyone would would be opposed to the use of tariffs
[00:10:03] tariffs per se if there was actually actually a link. But remember in
[00:10:07] in this case the 59 countries in
[00:10:09] in the EU. The 60 affected participants,
[00:10:12] participants, there's no proof whatsoever whatsoever that they're using forced forced labour. It's simply they're
[00:10:16] they're enforcing it in a different different way. And somehow that doesn't
[00:10:19] doesn't seem to be right. OK. Professor
[00:10:23] Professor Barry Appleton, co-director co-director of the centre for International International Law at New York Law
[00:10:27] Law School, thank you very much for for joining us here on Business Today.
[00:10:30] Today. Thank you for having me. Shares
[00:10:32] Shares in Google have been falling falling after a shake-up at the top
[00:10:36] top of the company's AI business. business. Demis Hassabis, who's chief
[00:10:40] chief executive of Google's DeepMind, DeepMind, is set to become chief
[00:10:44] chief scientist at Google's parent parent company Alphabet. This comes
[00:10:48] comes as four of Google's AI researchers researchers announced they were leaving
[00:10:51] leaving to start their own company. company. Here's our North America
[00:10:55] America business correspondent Samira
[00:10:57] Samira Hussain. Google is under immense immense pressure as it competes with
[00:11:01] with the likes of Anthropic and OpenAI.
[00:11:04] OpenAI. It is why this big shake
[00:11:06] shake up of their AI leadership has has investors just so nervous. There
[00:11:10] There are worries that alphabet has
[00:11:12] has actually fallen behind in the
[00:11:14] the AI race, even though it created
[00:11:17] created some of the key technologies
[00:11:19] technologies that are underpinning underpinning current AI models. Now
[00:11:22] Now also remember like other tech tech firms, Google continues to spend
[00:11:25] spend big on AI data centres and
[00:11:28] and such to the tune of somewhere
[00:11:32] somewhere between 195 to $205 billion. billion. That's an awful lot of money
[00:11:35] money to spend on a division of a a company that is going through such
[00:11:39] such a massive shake up. Samira Hussain Hussain there. Let's discuss this
[00:11:43] this in more detail now with Justin Justin Urquhart Stewart, founder
[00:11:46] founder of Regionally Ventures. Justin
[00:11:49] Justin shares down. Does that suggest suggest investors certainly do not
[00:11:52] not see this as a positive for Google's
[00:11:55] Google's place in the AI race? Well, Well, they're concerned as to watch
[00:11:58] watch what happens next. Because Because what you're seeing is an an awful lot of just moving around
[00:12:02] around of some of the deck chairs, chairs, but no one actually quite quite really giving us an idea of
[00:12:05] of what we're going to achieve. So
[00:12:08] So what they want is some much clearer clearer business direction. What
[00:12:11] What happens next, who's going to to be running it and when do we start start getting some return? What you've
[00:12:15] you've got is an awful lot of money money being thrown at this moment moment with very little understanding
[00:12:19] understanding as to actually when when we're actually going to see
[00:12:21] see a positive return in terms of, of, well, actually sort of proper
[00:12:24] proper money coming through, which which can be given out to shareholders. shareholders. So this is the big
[00:12:28] big bet at the moment and everything everything is being very positive. positive. Everyone's very keen and
[00:12:31] and enthusiastic to see it moving. moving. The trouble is there comes comes a stage when people turn around
[00:12:35] around and say yes, OK, that's fine, fine, but now can actually we see
[00:12:37] see some positive business returns.
[00:12:41] returns. Times of technological disruption disruption can be seismic, particularly
[00:12:44] particularly for big old names. Once
[00:12:45] Once upon a time it was Google shaking
[00:12:48] shaking up the scene. Now there's there's all sorts of new names out out there the likes of Anthropic,
[00:12:52] Anthropic, the likes of OpenAI. A
[00:12:55] A timely warning for companies like like Google who think might have
[00:12:58] have once upon a time thought they they were invincible to competitive
[00:13:01] competitive forces. It is astonishing, astonishing, isn't it, when you actually actually go back and look actually
[00:13:05] actually how businesses just a few few years ago were seen to be so so dynamic and strong, what could
[00:13:09] could touch them? Remember the days days when he used to talk about IBM? IBM? Talk to generation now? They've
[00:13:12] They've never heard of it. And even
[00:13:15] even things like old businesses like
[00:13:17] like Yahoo and things. So no things
[00:13:19] things change very, very, very quickly quickly indeed. The problem is of
[00:13:22] of course the fastest goes like this. this. Actually what you're getting
[00:13:25] getting is much less understanding understanding of actually where these these businesses are actually going
[00:13:29] going to be making money. The past past year, what we've seen is some some really good business concepts
[00:13:33] concepts and ideas. AI coming through through and actually seeing some
[00:13:36] some progress, but can you convert convert that actually into real profitable
[00:13:39] profitable returns? Otherwise investors investors will turn around and say,
[00:13:42] say, nice idea, but I can't take take this any further. What's the
[00:13:45] the issues for that? Well, just look look back at the old internet boom
[00:13:48] boom and bust when people turn around around and say, I'm sorry, but the
[00:13:51] the Emperor appears to be somewhat somewhat sartorially challenged.
[00:13:54] challenged. OK, Justin Urquhart Stewart Stewart never sartorially challenged.
[00:13:57] challenged. Thank you very much for
[00:13:59] for that. Still to come here on Business
[00:14:03] Business Today Beyond the clouds clouds could data centres in space
[00:14:05] space be a solution to meeting the
[00:14:07] the huge computing demands of AI
[00:14:11] AI around the world and across the
[00:14:13] the UK? This is BBC News.
[00:15:16] MUSIC
[00:15:24] This is BBC News. And you're watching Business Today. The summer's
[00:15:27] summer's high temperatures have seen seen record breaking wildfires in
[00:15:30] in France and Spain in recent weeks. weeks. And in Greece, authorities
[00:15:34] authorities there are still battling battling fires with risks of further
[00:15:37] further outbreaks. Rising temperatures, temperatures, of course, are making
[00:15:41] making wildfires more frequent, more more intense and harder to predict.
[00:15:44] predict. But now satellite imagery
[00:15:46] imagery and AI are increasingly helping helping emergency services detect
[00:15:50] detect fires earlier and forecast
[00:15:53] forecast how they will spread. Joining Joining me now. Doctor Axel Reinecke,
[00:15:56] Reinecke, who's chief commercial commercial officer at OroraTech,
[00:15:59] OroraTech, which helps to develop
[00:16:01] develop Greece's first dedicated dedicated national wildfire satellite
[00:16:04] satellite system. Thank you very very much for joining us today. Can
[00:16:08] Can you explain to us how it works?
[00:16:11] works? Good morning to you. Yes of
[00:16:13] of course. So from space we can continuously
[00:16:18] continuously monitor fires with satellites
[00:16:21] satellites that measure infrared.
[00:16:23] infrared. So we measure heat rather
[00:16:25] rather than visible smoke or flames.
[00:16:27] flames. And we scan the Earth's surface
[00:16:30] surface surface looking for heat
[00:16:32] heat signatures frequently and globally.
[00:16:35] globally. So with that information information combined with weather
[00:16:39] weather vegetation and terrain data,
[00:16:41] data, our AI turns millions of data
[00:16:45] data points into a simple alert and
[00:16:47] and actionable insight like how the
[00:16:49] the fire evolves, where it goes.
[00:16:52] goes. And how important it is. Europe
[00:16:54] Europe is getting used to more wildfires. wildfires. It's probably going to
[00:16:57] to have to. Other parts of the world world are more accustomed to dealing
[00:17:00] dealing with them. I wonder is this
[00:17:03] this part of that Europe becoming
[00:17:05] becoming more capable of managing
[00:17:08] managing wildfires? Wildfires need
[00:17:13] need to be detected earlier if you
[00:17:14] you want to. If you want to act,
[00:17:17] act, on a manageable size of the the fire. Once fires get beyond a
[00:17:21] a certain size, there is no control.
[00:17:24] control. So the earlier you can detect detect a fire and even predict where
[00:17:28] where fires are likely to happen, happen, you can put forces on the
[00:17:32] the ground, be prepared and react react when the fire is still manageable.
[00:17:35] manageable. And this is where we we need to get to go. Obviously there's
[00:17:39] there's like also in the prevention prevention part that we need to do
[00:17:43] do things like, removing vegetation
[00:17:45] vegetation early enough, etc. Is
[00:17:48] Is there a risk that this kind of of technology could promote maybe
[00:17:52] maybe some complacency about climate climate change that we rely on technology
[00:17:56] technology to help mitigate its worst
[00:17:59] worst impacts? No, we are currently
[00:18:03] currently using in firefighting often often technologies that are, you
[00:18:05] you know, 100 years old and we just
[00:18:08] just need to catch up and use what,
[00:18:10] what, what we have at hand, to, battle
[00:18:15] battle wildfires, with the appropriate appropriate means. OK. And setting
[00:18:18] setting up systems and infrastructure. infrastructure. This is like roads
[00:18:21] roads and bridges and IT infrastructure. infrastructure. This is something
[00:18:24] something that every country should should have. OK. Doctor Axel Reineke,
[00:18:28] Reineke, chief Commercial Officer Officer at OroraTech thanks for joining
[00:18:31] joining us on BBC News. Thank you.
[00:18:34] you. Africa's richest man Aliko Dangote
[00:18:37] Dangote has told the BBC about his his plans to build a new oil refinery
[00:18:41] refinery in Kenya, which he says says will help African countries
[00:18:45] countries become more self-sufficient. self-sufficient. My colleague Nancy
[00:18:47] Nancy Kacungira caught up with Mr Mr Dangote in Lagos and began by
[00:18:50] by asking him about how advanced advanced the plans for the refinery
[00:18:54] refinery are. The plans have actually
[00:18:56] actually gone very far with Kenya
[00:19:00] Kenya and because what we are trying trying to do really is to try and
[00:19:03] and make sure that you know, most
[00:19:06] most African countries we make them
[00:19:11] them self-sufficient in their own,
[00:19:13] own, you know, energy needs energy
[00:19:16] energy needs, which leather and co.
[00:19:18] co. So going back to your question, question, how far have we gone? We've
[00:19:22] We've gone very far. And I think
[00:19:26] think by latest by October we'll
[00:19:29] we'll be doing, groundbreaking once
[00:19:32] once we break ground, we will start
[00:19:35] start the construction very soon.
[00:19:37] soon. We are really planning something
[00:19:39] something very big within the African
[00:19:42] African continent and a lot of people people say, well, does the refinery
[00:19:45] refinery in East Africa, does it it make sense? It makes a lot of
[00:19:49] of sense because the refinery is is not only for Kenya. That's why
[00:19:53] why we are calling it East African
[00:19:56] African refinery. You know, so that
[00:19:58] that can serve a lot of countries
[00:20:01] countries up to even Egypt. How much much do you expect the East African
[00:20:04] African refinery to. I think we. we. We thought it was going to cost
[00:20:07] cost 17 billion. But it's going to to cost much. It will cost less than
[00:20:10] than that. We are looking at about
[00:20:14] about 15.5, $16 billion. Why will will it cost less than you originally
[00:20:17] originally anticipated? Because this
[00:20:20] this one will be faster. So in terms terms of financing costs will be
[00:20:23] be less. And then also you know,
[00:20:28] know, we are wiser as a company then
[00:20:31] then that when we built this one one because we are just learning
[00:20:34] learning when we built the one here. here. So that is really what is helping
[00:20:37] helping us. So in terms of timing,
[00:20:40] timing, we'll be able to build in
[00:20:42] in less than four years. So the location
[00:20:45] location is decided. What about the the financing. Are you looking at
[00:20:48] at cash debt equity. Yeah, we're we're looking at. All that you know
[00:20:51] know looking at equity and debt.
[00:20:54] debt. So 30% is going to be equity.
[00:20:57] equity. And then, 70% will be debt.
[00:21:01] debt. But we know we don't have any
[00:21:02] any problem raising the money. So
[00:21:05] So what do you see as the impact
[00:21:07] impact that this refinery could have have on energy security, not just.
[00:21:11] just. To have a massive impact really,
[00:21:14] really, and then also it guarantees guarantees the countries getting
[00:21:17] getting their own products that are are not going to live hand to mouth,
[00:21:20] mouth, you know, this. And then, then, you know, the refinery is there.
[00:21:23] there. It's for them. Well, you'll
[00:21:25] you'll be able to see more of that
[00:21:27] that interview broadcast on our new
[00:21:30] new Africa business programme, starting
[00:21:32] starting on BBC News in October.
[00:21:34] October. Now data centres are of
[00:21:36] of course becoming hugely controversial. controversial. They are vast, noisy,
[00:21:40] noisy, consume a huge amount of natural natural resources and are widely
[00:21:43] widely seen as bad neighbours to to those who live around them. But
[00:21:46] But we are going to need many more
[00:21:48] more to power the age of artificial
[00:21:51] artificial intelligence. So could could launching those data centres
[00:21:54] centres into space be a viable solution solution to this new age problem?
[00:21:57] problem? Elon Musk's SpaceX certainly certainly thinks so. It's planning
[00:22:01] planning to launch so-called orbital orbital data centres. And next we're
[00:22:04] we're going to hear from another another technology company called
[00:22:08] called orbital that also believes believes SpaceX could be the next
[00:22:11] next frontier for AI. I'm joined
[00:22:14] joined now by the founder of one one of those start-ups that very
[00:22:17] very start-up based in California, California, Ewan Poon joins us now.
[00:22:21] now. Thank you very much for joining
[00:22:24] joining us, Ewan. Tell us what are
[00:22:27] are the benefits of putting data
[00:22:29] data centres into space? I mean, mean, it's basically getting a tremendous
[00:22:33] tremendous amount of energy and scale.
[00:22:36] scale. And we have five times the the amount of solar energy that can
[00:22:39] can be captured in orbit as on the the planet's surface in a sun synchronous
[00:22:43] synchronous orbit, you get 24/7 sunlight.
[00:22:46] sunlight. And we really are just
[00:22:48] just running out of room energy.
[00:22:51] energy. The interconnection queues queues are clogged up and to basically
[00:22:54] basically just get to the next era
[00:22:56] era of AI. We do need to start tapping
[00:23:00] tapping into, solar energy up in
[00:23:02] in space. But Earth's orbit is already
[00:23:05] already full of satellites, perhaps perhaps not full, but there are certainly
[00:23:08] certainly plenty of them up there.
[00:23:10] there. Perhaps are they a different different prospect to, to data centres?
[00:23:14] centres? Aren't they more bulky? bulky? How would you plan to build
[00:23:17] build them and get them up there? there? Not quite actually. I think
[00:23:21] think we only have about 14,000 satellites
[00:23:24] satellites in orbit, a remarkably remarkably small number actually
[00:23:26] actually 12,000 of them are Starlink, Starlink, which were just launched
[00:23:30] launched in recent years. There are are many, many orbits and there are
[00:23:33] are six degrees of freedom of orbits. orbits. And we're you know, there's
[00:23:37] there's a lot of space, different different altitudes. So there's a
[00:23:41] a lot of potential there for being being able to capture a tremendous
[00:23:44] tremendous amount of energy. Now Now you've talked about, as you say,
[00:23:47] say, building potentially thousands thousands or launching thousands
[00:23:50] thousands of these individual little little data centres into space are
[00:23:53] are at risk, though, of just pushing pushing our problems off the planet
[00:23:57] planet because space junk space litter
[00:24:00] litter is another problem of the the modern age. Yeah, it's something
[00:24:03] something that we need to manage.
[00:24:05] manage. But you know, there's relatively
[00:24:08] relatively barren space and it's it's pretty calm up there. So you
[00:24:11] you know, with proper collision mitigation,
[00:24:17] mitigation, technology and there's, there's, there's just plenty of space space out there to be used. They
[00:24:21] They would have a life, I would expect expect they're going to have a relatively
[00:24:24] relatively limited lifespan though. though. And when one of these data
[00:24:27] data centres reaches the end of its its useful life, what's the plan
[00:24:31] plan there? Do you bring them back back down to earth? We actually just
[00:24:35] just deorbit them. And that's a process process that's very elegant process
[00:24:38] process of nudging them using a thruster thruster into the atmosphere where
[00:24:41] where they burn up. So ultimately ultimately with their lifespans in
[00:24:43] in say less than ten years or so, so, we expect about 7 to 10 years
[00:24:47] years of lifespan. They just burn burn up and we send a new one up.
[00:24:50] up. How close are you to making this this a reality? Closer than most
[00:24:54] most people think. We're sending
[00:24:55] sending one up next year and this
[00:24:58] this matches SpaceX's own timeline. timeline. Now, we'll be sending probably
[00:25:02] probably a few at a time in the next next few years until we scale up
[00:25:05] up in a big way towards the end of of the decade. And that's all dependent
[00:25:08] dependent on SpaceX's Starship launch
[00:25:11] launch capability and launch capacity. capacity. OK, you and Poon, fascinating
[00:25:14] fascinating stuff. You and poon from from orbital. Fascinating to hear
[00:25:18] hear about it and, wish you the best best of luck with it. Now let's have
[00:25:22] have a look at a couple of other other business stories before we
[00:25:24] we go. The Facebook owner Meta says
[00:25:26] says an issue during testing allowed allowed one of its AI models to connect
[00:25:30] connect to the internet and hack hack another organisation system.
[00:25:33] system. The announcement follows follows recent incidents across the
[00:25:37] the AI industry, including breaches breaches by OpenAI and Anthropic
[00:25:40] Anthropic models that have raised raised cyber security concerns, Meta
[00:25:43] Meta told the BBC it was investigating
[00:25:45] investigating the hack said it was
[00:25:49] was caused by a misconfiguration.
[00:25:54] misconfiguration. That is your Business Business Today. I'm Tadhg Enright Enright plenty more business stories
[00:25:58] stories on our website you can catch catch up with. Stay with us here.
[00:26:00] here. Here on BBC News. MUSIC
[00:28:56] That booming noise that you
[00:28:58] Hear from automatic
[00:29:03] semiautomatic weapons. It was a pretty pretty distinctive sound. And that's that's when all of us hit the deck
[00:29:07] deck all along the banks of Hungary's Hungary's historic River Danube, Danube, overlooking the parliament
[00:29:10] parliament building, which is going going to dramatically change after
[00:29:14] after tonight's results. That is
[00:29:15] is the part of Lebanon that is now
[00:29:18] now occupied by Israeli troops. We We heard the first explosions after
[00:29:22] after midnight last night and then then the air raid lasted right through
[00:29:25] through the night. It's not just just what you see and you hear as
[00:29:29] as the rocket lifts off. You can
[00:29:31] can actually feel the force of it
[00:29:33] it through your body. There. When
[00:29:35] When the story breaks, BBC News.
[00:30:10] Live from London. This is BBC
[00:30:13] News. Iran says a deal with Oman
[00:30:15] Oman for a new shipping route through through the Strait of Hormuz is in
[00:30:18] in the final stages. Israel says
[00:30:21] says two of its soldiers have been been killed in southern Lebanon as
[00:30:25] as it resumes strikes on the country.
[00:30:29] country. Fifas president, Gianni Gianni Infantino, apologises after
[00:30:32] after a backlash over proposals to to sell shares in the World Cup to
[00:30:36] to private investors. Myanmar's military
[00:30:40] military leader visits Thailand as
[00:30:41] as Bangkok pushes for re-engagement
[00:30:44] re-engagement with its regional neighbours.
[00:30:46] neighbours. And also coming up, Afghanistan's
[00:30:49] Afghanistan's exiled women footballers footballers make an international
[00:30:52] international comeback after a change
[00:30:53] change in Fifa's rules.