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[00:00:13] It's 6pm in London. This is The
[00:00:15] World Today with Maryam Moshiri new
[00:00:18] new strikes hit two refineries deep
[00:00:20] deep inside Russia as a wave of Ukrainian
[00:00:23] Ukrainian drones target the country. country. Iran says a deal with Oman
[00:00:26] Oman on the Strait of Hormuz is in
[00:00:29] in its final stages. The English
[00:00:32] English FA withdraw support for embattled embattled Fifa president Gianni Infantino,
[00:00:36] Infantino, as Uefa says Europe's Europe's World Cup boycott may still
[00:00:38] still go ahead. Also coming up on
[00:00:42] on The World Today, Meta becomes becomes the latest firm to say one
[00:00:45] one of its AI models hacked another
[00:00:48] another company.
[00:00:59] Hello and welcome to The World
[00:01:02] Today on BBC News. Ukraine has launched
[00:01:04] launched a series of strikes deep
[00:01:07] deep into Russia, including an attack attack on one of the country's largest
[00:01:10] largest oil facilities, the Slovnaft Slovnaft refinery has the capacity
[00:01:14] capacity to produce up to 300,000
[00:01:17] 300,000 barrels of oil a day, and and has been repeatedly targeted
[00:01:21] targeted by Ukraine. Yaroslavl governor
[00:01:23] governor says drones had been intercepted, intercepted, but falling debris sparked
[00:01:27] sparked fires and damaged the refinery
[00:01:29] refinery storage tanks. Well, video video shared on social media showed
[00:01:33] showed explosions and two columns columns of smoke rising over the
[00:01:36] the city. Around 700km from the Ukrainian
[00:01:39] Ukrainian border. Four people are are reported to have been injured.
[00:01:42] injured. The regional governor says says it's the largest ever attack
[00:01:45] attack by enemy drones. Well, Ukraine's Ukraine's president says the attacks
[00:01:49] attacks there and on the Bashneft
[00:01:51] Bashneft Navale refinery, around around 1300km from Ukraine, were
[00:01:55] were aimed at limiting oil revenues, revenues, which he says fund the
[00:01:58] the Kremlin's war effort. The Russian
[00:02:00] Russian military says it's intercepted
[00:02:03] intercepted more than 600,000 Ukrainian Ukrainian drones across the country
[00:02:06] country overnight. Meanwhile, at at least 11 people have been killed
[00:02:09] killed and many more injured in Russian
[00:02:11] Russian attacks across Ukraine, including including this drone strike on a
[00:02:14] a rail station in Lozova, the southern
[00:02:17] southern city of Kherson has reported reported a total blackout, while
[00:02:20] while Russia says it's targeting targeting fuel, energy and transport
[00:02:24] transport facilities. Well, let's let's speak to John Foreman, who
[00:02:26] who previously served as the UK defence defence attache to Moscow and to
[00:02:30] to Kyiv. Thanks so much for joining joining us on The World Today. Just
[00:02:33] Just talk me through what you make make of the latest escalation between
[00:02:36] between the two sides. Well, hello,
[00:02:39] hello, Mariam, I think this is a a continuation of the strategy both
[00:02:42] both sides have been using for the the last couple of years is to try
[00:02:45] try and strike at each other's infrastructure infrastructure in the deep areas,
[00:02:49] areas, IE away from the battlefield. battlefield. This is because the
[00:02:52] the battlefield itself has largely largely remained unchanged for 2
[00:02:55] 2 or 3 years. So I think both sides sides are trying to gain an advantage
[00:02:58] advantage by trying to raise the
[00:03:01] the cost to their opponent, in the the hope that the other side will
[00:03:04] will change course. And that hope hope that the other side will change
[00:03:07] change course. Clearly, so far has
[00:03:10] has been a futile hope. How is that that feeding into the way both sides
[00:03:14] sides are proceeding with this
[00:03:18] war? Yes. I mean, I think raising raising the costs, conducting in
[00:03:19] in a language, a deep campaign takes
[00:03:22] takes time and takes many years. years. We've seen effects inside inside Russia, as you're saying,
[00:03:26] saying, reducing oil revenues and
[00:03:27] and also raising costs of oil and
[00:03:30] and making it scarce for Russians Russians bring that war home to Russians
[00:03:33] Russians in return. The Russians Russians are striking energy sites,
[00:03:37] sites, water facilities distribution
[00:03:39] distribution sites, ports to reduce
[00:03:44] reduce Ukraine's economic potential. potential. I think the key factor
[00:03:47] factor here is the impending winter winter and the impending elections
[00:03:50] elections inside Russia. For Russia Russia knows that winter is coming
[00:03:53] coming for Ukraine, it's going to to be exceptionally difficult again. again. So I think Russia is trying
[00:03:57] trying to gain a momentum and advantage advantage before the winter comes.
[00:04:00] comes. In return, Ukrainians are are trying to bring home the war
[00:04:03] war to Russians ahead of the parliamentary parliamentary elections at the end end of September. Inside Russia.
[00:04:07] Russia. And what about the US.? And
[00:04:10] And in terms of the negotiating team team there and that kind of effort
[00:04:14] effort to move forward with some some sort of deal, where do you see
[00:04:17] see that? Well, a peace has been
[00:04:21] been moribund, I think, for a number number of months because frankly,
[00:04:25] frankly, the approach that the Trump Trump administration took last year
[00:04:27] year was of trying to get a deal deal was chaotic. It led absolutely
[00:04:30] absolutely nowhere. Trump gave a
[00:04:33] a summit in Alaska to Putin, and and in return he got absolutely nothing.
[00:04:37] nothing. So I would welcome a resumption resumption of US engagement in the
[00:04:40] the peace process if there is a peace peace process. But unfortunately, unfortunately, the United States
[00:04:44] States in particular, Trump is distracted distracted by the war in Iran and
[00:04:47] and trying to rebuild Washington, Washington, DC he doesn't seem particularly particularly engaged on the issue
[00:04:51] issue of Ukraine. And I think without without significant US engagement
[00:04:55] engagement and US coercion, particularly particularly of Russia, there is
[00:04:58] is little chance of bringing a peace peace deal, even if Mr Witkoff and
[00:05:02] and his Mr Kushner go to Kyiv. OK. OK. John Foreman, great to talk to
[00:05:05] to you. Thank you. Well, we spoke
[00:05:09] spoke about land attacks, but Russia Russia and Ukraine have also stepped
[00:05:11] stepped up their attacks in the Black Black Sea. Russia has been targeting
[00:05:15] targeting ships using this corridor, corridor, which is supposed to allow allow international ships to bring
[00:05:19] bring goods safely in and out of of Ukraine. Ukraine has been launching
[00:05:22] launching its own attacks on ships ships here in the Sea of Azov and
[00:05:26] and trying to cut off all supplies supplies to Russian occupied Crimea.
[00:05:30] Crimea. Our correspondent Paul Adams Adams was granted rare access to
[00:05:33] to Ukraine's navy in the Black Sea
[00:05:35] Sea on the condition he doesn't reveal
[00:05:37] reveal their precise location. We're
[00:05:41] We're going on patrol with the Ukrainian
[00:05:44] Ukrainian navy out into waters made made increasingly dangerous by Russian
[00:05:47] Russian attacks. Rare access to a
[00:05:49] a unit facing constant danger in in a part of the country where a
[00:05:53] a drone or ballistic missile can
[00:05:55] can arrive with little warning. Yeah,
[00:05:58] Yeah, everyone is focused on alert. alert. They fire their guns every
[00:06:02] every day. This morning it looks
[00:06:04] looks deceptively calm with its guns, guns, its netting and some of the
[00:06:08] the other equipment on board. This This vessel can look after itself
[00:06:11] itself more or less. But what it
[00:06:13] it can't do is to stop Russia attacking
[00:06:15] attacking civilian ships coming in
[00:06:18] in and out of Ukraine's ports. Those Those attacks are increasing and
[00:06:21] and it's a major problem. There's
[00:06:23] There's a war out at sea Russia and
[00:06:27] and Ukraine hitting each other's other's ships, hundreds of them.
[00:06:30] them. For the past month, the images
[00:06:32] images have been pouring in. Every
[00:06:35] Every day we have to rescue crews crews and take measures to prevent
[00:06:38] prevent these attacks and reduce reduce their number. We're doing
[00:06:41] doing everything we possibly can. can. Ukraine is one of the world's
[00:06:45] world's largest grain exporters. exporters. Before the war, when these
[00:06:48] these pictures were taken, Odesa's
[00:06:50] Odesa's ports helped feed the world.
[00:06:53] world. The country's grain exporters exporters are worried the summer
[00:06:56] summer harvest is in full swing. swing. Russia's attacks coming at
[00:07:00] at the worst possible time. I would
[00:07:02] would say that we already have lost
[00:07:05] lost the ability to deliver to global
[00:07:08] global consumer. Around half 1 million
[00:07:12] million or 700,000 metric tonnes tonnes of Ukrainian grains and oilseeds.
[00:07:14] oilseeds. The war at sea is raging,
[00:07:16] raging, some of it out over the horizon,
[00:07:18] horizon, some of it right here along along the coast. Ukraine and Russia
[00:07:22] Russia are looking to exert maximum maximum economic pressure on each
[00:07:26] each other. For those who live and
[00:07:28] and work here, life is becoming increasingly
[00:07:31] increasingly dangerous. Svetlana Svetlana works in Odesa's port. She's
[00:07:34] She's been limping for the past year year ever since a Russian missile
[00:07:39] missile exploded nearby, killing killing two of her colleagues. The
[00:07:41] The last few weeks, she says, have
[00:07:44] have been grim. Oh. Watching low
[00:07:48] low morale. It's very difficult.
[00:07:50] difficult. A lot of sirens, a lot
[00:07:52] lot of drones, a lot of hits. And
[00:07:55] And for morale, it's even more difficult.
[00:07:58] difficult. People are very tense.
[00:08:00] tense. What can I say? Look at my
[00:08:04] my hands. For all its dangers, this
[00:08:09] this is summer in Odesa. Ukrainians
[00:08:10] Ukrainians have flocked to the beach.
[00:08:15] beach. Mostly ignoring the sirens sirens and showing only mild interest.
[00:08:19] interest. Earlier this week, when
[00:08:20] when a Russian drone washed ashore.
[00:08:24] ashore. At the other end of the Black
[00:08:25] Black Sea. On the same day. Seven
[00:08:30] Seven Russians were killed when an an intercepted Ukrainian drone fell
[00:08:34] fell on their beach back near Odesa. Odesa. We go looking for the site
[00:08:38] site of an explosion we heard earlier.
[00:08:41] earlier. We find 83-year-old Andrei Andrei Dudek in the shattered ruins
[00:08:44] ruins of his house and garden. It's It's been just five hours since a
[00:08:48] a jet powered drone interrupted his
[00:08:50] his afternoon nap. Somehow he escaped
[00:08:53] escaped without a scratch. You think
[00:08:56] think that you are the accidental
[00:08:59] accidental victim of Russia's attacks
[00:09:01] attacks on the ports? Absolutely.
[00:09:04] Absolutely. He says. I won't forget
[00:09:07] forget this. This war on ships and
[00:09:09] and ports has many casual victims
[00:09:11] victims sailors, dock workers or or people simply unlucky enough to
[00:09:15] to live or work nearby. Paul, BBC
[00:09:19] BBC News Odesa. Now there are still
[00:09:25] still question marks over the future
[00:09:28] future of Gianni Infantino as the
[00:09:29] the boss of Fifa fights to keep his
[00:09:32] his job. Now the English Football Football Association, the English
[00:09:36] English FA, has today officially officially withdrawn its support
[00:09:39] support for Mr Infantino. There was was uproar over his plan to sell
[00:09:43] sell a stake in the World Cup to to private investors. Well, that
[00:09:46] that idea was, of course, scrapped.
[00:09:48] scrapped. We know that. And since
[00:09:50] since then Infantino has apologised
[00:09:53] apologised and called a meeting of of representatives in Morocco as
[00:09:56] as well. But many, including Europe's
[00:10:00] Europe's governing body Uefa, remain remain unhappy with the way everything
[00:10:03] everything was dealt with and indeed
[00:10:05] indeed the plan itself from Gianni
[00:10:07] Gianni Infantino. In fact, in a statement statement it said Uefa made it abundantly
[00:10:11] abundantly clear that it has lost
[00:10:12] lost confidence in Gianni Infantino Infantino presidency and that position
[00:10:16] position holds. Well, our sports sports editor, Dan Roan joins me
[00:10:20] me now. And, Dan, the pressure building
[00:10:23] building on Gianni Infantino now. now. Yes it is. I think he may well
[00:10:27] well have hoped perhaps that that that attempt at clearing the air
[00:10:30] air in Morocco yesterday when he he gathered his hierarchy in Rabat,
[00:10:34] Rabat, very much friendly territory territory for him. It's one of the
[00:10:37] the countries that's come out in in support. And interestingly, it's
[00:10:39] it's where he hopes to be re-elected re-elected for a fourth term next
[00:10:42] next year. It's where the next Fifa Fifa Congress is due to take place
[00:10:46] place in March, may have helped him him draw a line under this saga,
[00:10:50] saga, but Uefa have proven that that's that's not the case today. By renewing
[00:10:54] renewing this threat of a boycott boycott of Fifa competitions now,
[00:10:57] now, yes, the World Cup has only only just happened, but there are are competitions quite regularly
[00:11:01] regularly and the next one is in in just a few weeks' time. It's the the women's T20 World Cup. It's due
[00:11:05] due to take place in Poland. Several
[00:11:08] Several European nations are participating, participating, including England.
[00:11:11] England. Will Uefa have the resolve resolve to actually go through with
[00:11:13] with that threat if they don't get get the assurances that they're looking looking for? Remember, they've said
[00:11:17] said that they're not satisfied that
[00:11:21] that the possibility of another proposal proposal to sell off stakes in, in
[00:11:24] in World Cups and other competitions competitions to private investors
[00:11:27] investors won't come to pass again. again. So there is some potential
[00:11:30] potential there that they do get get what they're looking for. But
[00:11:33] But if not, then they may well go go ahead. And that runs the risk
[00:11:36] risk I think for Uefa of them being being more isolated because there'll
[00:11:40] there'll be some who don't agree agree with that tactic of denying denying young players the opportunity
[00:11:44] opportunity to play in a competition competition of that sort, to try
[00:11:47] try and unseat a president. I think
[00:11:49] think Uefa in a little bit of a dilemma dilemma here. They'll have hoped hoped that the pressure that's been
[00:11:53] been applied in the last few days days would have made Infantino consider
[00:11:56] consider his position and step aside. aside. He's made clear now that he's
[00:11:58] he's not minded to do that. And so so it may well be they have to now
[00:12:02] now either wait until an election election next March or try and get
[00:12:04] get the support around the world world required to either have an
[00:12:08] an emergency meeting of the Council Council or of the entire Congress.
[00:12:11] Congress. But the numbers at this this point don't seem to stack up.
[00:12:14] up. And I think that's why Uefa are
[00:12:17] are still offering up those kind kind of threats, because they don't
[00:12:20] don't feel that they have the global global support required to go down
[00:12:24] down those avenues. And as if to to reinforce that Conmebol, the South
[00:12:27] South American Confederation, today today issued a statement saying that that it was pretty clear from what
[00:12:31] what they said that they don't believe believe that there should be any
[00:12:33] any more pressure applied to Infantino Infantino to quit. What they would
[00:12:36] would like is for the election to to take place and for the democratic democratic process to decide who
[00:12:40] who will lead Fifa going forward.
[00:12:42] forward. Dan, thank you. Well, much much of Infantino's support comes
[00:12:46] comes from football associations associations in Africa. Are they they still backing their man? Well,
[00:12:50] Well, let's speak to Moroccan sports sports journalist Amin El Amri. I
[00:12:53] I mean it's great to talk to you. you. Thanks for joining us. What
[00:12:56] What are you hearing about the power power struggle within those upper
[00:12:59] upper echelons of Fifa? Hi. Cheers.
[00:13:03] Cheers. Thanks for having me. Well,
[00:13:04] Well, there's certainly a different
[00:13:08] different tiers of support or lack
[00:13:11] lack of towards Infantino, especially
[00:13:12] especially in Africa, in Africa I
[00:13:15] I can say that all members or all
[00:13:19] all heads of. I'm sorry. What? No,
[00:13:25] No, no you're fine. You keep going.
[00:13:26] going. I can hear you. Keep
[00:13:30] going. All right. Fantastic. So like like I said, there's a couple of
[00:13:33] of members of the Fifa Council which
[00:13:36] which also are members of the CAF
[00:13:38] CAF Exco that are backing Infantino
[00:13:41] Infantino no matter the situation.
[00:13:43] situation. But there are also some some members of CAF top executives
[00:13:47] executives that are taking their
[00:13:49] their time, namely Patrice Motsepe,
[00:13:52] Motsepe, the head of CAF. That didn't
[00:13:56] didn't go public in support of not
[00:13:58] not supporting Infantino but rather
[00:14:01] rather called for an emergency Reunion
[00:14:03] Reunion of the Exco today by by by
[00:14:07] by video call. Other than that, I
[00:14:11] I think Uefa is seen in Africa as
[00:14:14] as a little bit patronising and trying
[00:14:18] trying to be, you know, the white
[00:14:21] white knight astride the white horse horse trying to save football. And
[00:14:25] And I don't think that's the best
[00:14:27] best approach. Uefa is already gathering
[00:14:30] gathering all of the power in football, football, all of the finances and
[00:14:34] and the approach should be different. different. Let's not forget that
[00:14:37] that Gianni Infantino is kind of
[00:14:40] of the creator of Uefa, which he
[00:14:43] he was Secretary General before becoming
[00:14:46] becoming Fifa president. So moving moving forward, how much support
[00:14:49] support do you think there is for for him in countries like Morocco,
[00:14:52] Morocco, in other African nations? nations? And how much do you think think he's going to end up having
[00:14:56] having to rely on that support? Well,
[00:14:59] Well, I think he's still assessing
[00:15:03] assessing his the people that will
[00:15:04] will support him. They will back
[00:15:07] back him up in the next Fifa Congress
[00:15:11] Congress during the elections. We
[00:15:12] We all know that in by November 18th,
[00:15:17] 18th, everybody that wants to be
[00:15:20] be candidates should apply by November November 18th. And I don't think
[00:15:24] think Uefa has got a really credible
[00:15:26] credible candidate to go against against Infantino because he's got
[00:15:29] got so much good relationships with
[00:15:34] with many, many African countries
[00:15:36] countries or African let alone the
[00:15:40] the South American Comibol Confederation
[00:15:44] Confederation Confederation that that backs him up no matter what.
[00:15:47] what. I think the struggle between
[00:15:50] between Uefa and Infantino will be
[00:15:51] be played in the AFC in the Asian
[00:15:54] Asian Confederation. I think Africa
[00:15:56] Africa overall will vote for Infantino. Infantino. OK. I mean good to talk
[00:15:59] talk to you. Thank you so much for
[00:16:01] for joining us on The World Today.
[00:16:04] Today. Right. Let's take a short short break now because still to
[00:16:07] to come on The World Today a new new language for Star Wars. We'll
[00:16:11] We'll hear from the latest voice voice of C-3PO as the movie is dubbed
[00:16:15] dubbed into Welsh for the first time time ever around the
[00:17:18] line. Join us for the climate question
[00:17:22] question on BBC News. Pakistan says
[00:17:30] says it hopes a potential agreement agreement between Iran and Oman over
[00:17:34] over the Strait of Hormuz could get get Washington and Tehran to return
[00:17:38] return to the negotiating table to to end the war. Iran has claimed
[00:17:41] claimed a deal for a new route through through the shipping route through
[00:17:44] through the Strait of Hormuz has has almost been agreed with Oman,
[00:17:47] Oman, which sits on the other side side of the vital waterway. The Iranian
[00:17:51] Iranian Foreign ministry has said said any agreement would depend on
[00:17:54] on certain third parties not interfering. interfering. Well, the US hasn't
[00:17:58] hasn't yet responded to Iran's comments. comments. The strait has been effectively
[00:18:02] effectively closed since the war war began in February. Any deal to
[00:18:05] to reopen it may start to ease oil
[00:18:08] oil supply issues and economic pressures,
[00:18:11] pressures, but it could also solidify solidify Iranian control of that
[00:18:14] that key route. Well, let's speak speak to Jen Gavito, a senior adviser
[00:18:18] adviser at the Cohen Group and former former senior State Department official. official. Jen, great to have you
[00:18:22] you on the show. Thank you so much much for joining us. And just talk
[00:18:24] talk me first of all about where where we are now because, you know,
[00:18:28] know, we've seen ourselves close close to a deal. We've seen ourselves
[00:18:31] ourselves pulling back from a deal.
[00:18:33] deal. How do you view the latest latest so far between Iran and Oman?
[00:18:37] Oman? How hopeful are you that this this time we could be as close as
[00:18:41] as we've been to a deal between the
[00:18:43] the US and Iran? Thanks for having
[00:18:46] having me back. And I think that that in any agreement like this,
[00:18:50] this, the final details are the stickiest. stickiest. We had heard earlier this
[00:18:54] this week that there was hope that that that deal would be signed on
[00:18:57] on Wednesday. Obviously that didn't didn't happen. But I do think all
[00:19:00] all signs are still pointing towards
[00:19:03] towards some sort of bilateral agreement
[00:19:04] agreement between Oman and Iran that
[00:19:08] that would reopen the waterway. What's What's interesting, I think about
[00:19:11] about this is that it would be, as as I note, a bilateral agreement
[00:19:15] agreement between Iran and Oman.
[00:19:16] Oman. We've heard the Trump administration
[00:19:19] administration profess that we, the the United States, are close to a
[00:19:23] a deal. Iran has denied, however, however, that it's negotiating with
[00:19:26] with the US at this point. And so
[00:19:28] so I think what we're likely to see see is the announcement of the deal
[00:19:31] deal with Oman and then the GCC potentially
[00:19:34] potentially and the United States
[00:19:36] States more or less endorsing it,
[00:19:39] it, giving it legitimacy before it it goes into effect. I mean, both
[00:19:43] both sides need to come out of this this looking like they've, you know,
[00:19:47] know, looking like it's a win for for them. Right? So in your experience experience in the State Department,
[00:19:50] Department, what do you think each each side would need to secure from
[00:19:53] from the other side to get their.
[00:19:56] their. So first of all, trust is
[00:19:59] is at an absolute low point at the the moment, particularly given that
[00:20:03] that there had been, in fact, an an MOU that was signed and both sides
[00:20:07] sides feel strongly that the other other violated it. That makes it
[00:20:10] it that much harder to get back into
[00:20:12] into a place of negotiations. But
[00:20:14] But I think what Iran will be looking
[00:20:16] looking for is first and foremost
[00:20:18] foremost a continued strategic control
[00:20:21] control of the Strait of Hormuz. Hormuz. That's obviously something something that they did not have
[00:20:25] have six months ago, but we've seen
[00:20:27] seen them prioritise more and more more as negotiations have gone on.
[00:20:31] on. So I think for them that is the the red line. But that's. Anathema,
[00:20:34] Anathema, isn't it, to the US.? Absolutely.
[00:20:36] Absolutely. I mean this has major major implications for freedom of
[00:20:40] of navigation around the world, not not just for the United States, but
[00:20:44] but it also represents, if true, true, a major strategic loss for
[00:20:48] for the US essentially this war is
[00:20:50] is going to come down to Iran controlling
[00:20:53] controlling a waterway that was opened
[00:20:55] opened six months ago and very little
[00:20:58] little else to show despite, again, again, six months of conflict. So
[00:21:01] So for the US., this is both problematic.
[00:21:03] problematic. And yet I think inevitable inevitable because it's increasingly
[00:21:07] increasingly clear that President President Trump wants out of this
[00:21:10] this war. OK. It's so interesting, interesting, Jen. It's great to get get your analysis. Thank you very
[00:21:14] very much for joining us on The World World Today. I just want to remind
[00:21:18] remind you that shortly after half half past the hour, we'll have our
[00:21:22] our daily round up of all the latest latest developments in the Middle
[00:21:25] Middle East that's coming up in The The Iran War Today. So do stay with
[00:21:28] with us here on BBC News for that
[00:21:30] that daily update. A US Senate committee
[00:21:33] committee has voted to hold the former former White House Chief Medical
[00:21:37] Medical Adviser Anthony Fauci in in contempt after he refused to answer
[00:21:40] answer questions about his handling handling of the Covid pandemic. The
[00:21:44] The infectious disease specialist specialist invoked his constitutional
[00:21:47] constitutional right to silence last last week when he was grilled by
[00:21:51] by senators about the pandemic and and whether he covered up its origin.
[00:21:54] origin. It's not clear if the vote vote to hold him in contempt will
[00:21:56] will lead to criminal prosecution. prosecution. Former President Joe
[00:21:59] Joe Biden gave Mr Fauci a pre-emptive pre-emptive pardon on his last day
[00:22:03] day in office in 2025, protecting
[00:22:05] protecting him from federal prosecution prosecution for his actions between
[00:22:09] between 2014 and 2025. Fauci could, could, however, still face charges
[00:22:11] charges for anything after that date, date, including contempt of Congress.
[00:22:15] Congress. Well, let's speak to Joe Joe Moreno, a former federal prosecutor.
[00:22:18] prosecutor. Thanks so much for joining joining us on The World Today, Joe.
[00:22:21] Joe. So just talk me through. Exactly.
[00:22:23] Exactly. Let's go back to why Mr
[00:22:25] Mr Fauci kept his silence during
[00:22:28] during that hearing and whether that that was the right thing to do, given
[00:22:31] given what's happened now. Sure, Sure, Miriam. Good to be with you.
[00:22:34] you. Well, you teed it up perfectly, perfectly, right? Because there's
[00:22:38] there's this pardon that begins and
[00:22:41] and goes backward. January 19th, 19th, 2025. Back to basically cover
[00:22:45] cover everything that Doctor Fauci Fauci did when he was the President's
[00:22:48] President's medical adviser and basically basically head of the coronavirus
[00:22:51] coronavirus task force. Right. So So one would say, what does he have
[00:22:54] have to invoke the Fifth Amendment Amendment about, which protects you
[00:22:58] you against criminal prosecution? prosecution? He would say, look,
[00:23:01] look, Republicans, Rand Paul in particular, particular, and now even a number
[00:23:05] number of states have been calling calling for my prosecution. So I'm
[00:23:08] I'm not going to walk into effectively effectively a trap and incriminate
[00:23:12] incriminate myself. So I can see see as an American citizen, I would
[00:23:15] would love to know what Doctor Fauci Fauci knows that we haven't yet learned
[00:23:18] learned in public. But as a defence defence lawyer, I'd be the first
[00:23:21] first one to say, look, there's no no reason to help the government
[00:23:25] government prosecute you. So to be be safe, don't say anything at all.
[00:23:29] all. But he's done that, right? That's That's OK. But what I don't understand
[00:23:32] understand is why is he being held held in contempt? Surely the Fifth
[00:23:35] Fifth Amendment will offer him some some level of protection though.
[00:23:38] though. Right? So there's a couple couple of different moving pieces
[00:23:42] pieces here, right? Normally a Senate Senate committee would vote on a
[00:23:46] a contempt finding. Then it would would go to the full Senate. The The Senate would have to vote on
[00:23:50] on it and get 60 votes because of of the filibuster rule. Then the
[00:23:53] the Senate would refer it to the the Justice Department and the Justice
[00:23:56] Justice Department would decide whether whether or not there's a legitimate
[00:23:59] legitimate criminal case to bring. bring. It's rare, but it has happened
[00:24:02] happened a few a handful of times times in the last few decades. So
[00:24:06] So the number one thing, if you cross
[00:24:09] cross all of these procedural hurdles, hurdles, then it would come down
[00:24:12] down to was this a legitimate assertion assertion of the Fifth Amendment?
[00:24:15] Amendment? Doctor Fauci would say, say, yes, I do not have a pardon
[00:24:19] pardon or some kind of immunity following
[00:24:22] following the date of January 19th
[00:24:24] 19th of last year. Everyone's calling calling for my prosecution and there's
[00:24:27] there's no way I want to entrap myself.
[00:24:30] myself. The prosecution, if they they brought one, would say, look,
[00:24:33] look, you have this broad pardon. pardon. All we're asking you to do
[00:24:37] do today is to tell the truth. And And the pardon does not protect you
[00:24:40] you from perjuring yourself. So it it would be a vigorous legal battle
[00:24:44] battle in the courts if it even gets gets out of the Senate, which at
[00:24:47] at this point I'd say is pretty unlikely. unlikely. OK, so it looks like it's
[00:24:50] it's a pretty long way to go before before then. Joe Moreno, we're out out of time. But thank you so much
[00:24:54] much for joining us and explaining explaining that so clearly as well. well. Thank you. Thanks, Miriam.
[00:24:58] Miriam. The sister of the murdered murdered British exchange student
[00:25:01] student Meredith Kercher, has appealed
[00:25:03] appealed to Amanda Knox not to go go ahead with a comedy show at the
[00:25:07] the Edinburgh Fringe Festival. Amanda
[00:25:10] Amanda Knox was convicted but later
[00:25:12] later acquitted of the murder in in Italy in 2007. Miss Kercher's
[00:25:15] Kercher's sister says the proposed proposed stand up show turns the
[00:25:18] the rape and murder of Meredith into into entertainment. Emma Vardy has
[00:25:22] has more and a warning. Her report
[00:25:23] report contains flashing images.
[00:25:27] images. Characterised in court as as a cold, manipulative femme fatale.
[00:25:31] fatale. For many years Amanda Knox Knox was portrayed to the world as
[00:25:35] as a murderer convicted along with
[00:25:37] with her former boyfriend 21-year-old
[00:25:41] 21-year-old Meredith Kercher was was found dead in the apartment they
[00:25:44] they shared she had been stabbed
[00:25:46] stabbed in the throat. Amanda Knox
[00:25:49] Knox spent four years in prison, prison, but after years of appeals
[00:25:53] appeals and Retrials, Italy's highest highest court, finally acquitted
[00:25:55] acquitted her. I'm so grateful to
[00:25:57] to have my life back. After years
[00:26:00] years rebuilding her identity through through documentaries, books and
[00:26:04] and podcasts, she's now bringing bringing a stand up comedy show to
[00:26:06] to the Edinburgh Fringe. My friends friends and family are actually really
[00:26:10] really nervous for me, despite my my spotless record in the court of
[00:26:13] of public opinion, I bombed in a
[00:26:16] a courtroom and they sent me to prison, prison, so I'm just saying I'd rather
[00:26:19] rather be heckled than
[00:26:23] shackled. But Meredith's family have have told the BBC their pain is being
[00:26:26] being turned into entertainment. I so appreciate comedy
[00:26:28] comedy is there to push the boundaries
[00:26:32] boundaries and you know it very much
[00:26:35] much normalises and trivialises violence violence against women and Meredith
[00:26:38] Meredith in particular. And it shouldn't shouldn't be given a platform for
[00:26:41] for that specific topic. They've They've backed a petition calling
[00:26:44] calling for the show to be cancelled, cancelled, but Amanda Knox says the
[00:26:48] the show honours Meredith's memory memory rather than making light of
[00:26:51] of it. I'm not the first person to
[00:26:53] to invent using comedy to talk about
[00:26:56] about traumatic and difficult material, material, and I think that, again,
[00:26:59] again, I would hope that people will will honestly engage with my work
[00:27:03] work and recognise, like the deep deep heart and sensitivity that I
[00:27:06] I bring to it as I tell a very personal personal story through a comedic
[00:27:10] comedic lens. The show, which is
[00:27:12] is said to be sold out, has raised raised questions for the fringe over
[00:27:15] over someone's right to tell their their own story and the impact of
[00:27:19] of that on others. Around nearly
[00:27:23] nearly two decades on, it's another another chapter for Amanda Knox in
[00:27:26] in a story she spent years trying
[00:27:28] trying to tell. Emma Vardy, BBC News.
[00:27:34] News. Rihanna could be back making making music. According to her partner partner ASAP Rocky. Rihanna, whose
[00:27:37] whose real name is Robin Fenty, hasn't
[00:27:40] hasn't released a full album since
[00:27:43] since 2016, while ASAP Rocky said said on the Jason Lee podcast she's
[00:27:46] she's in the studio right now, adding, adding, she's cooking. We don't have
[00:27:50] have any details, but the pair have have said they wouldn't collaborate
[00:27:53] collaborate on a double album. Interesting.
[00:27:56] Interesting. Maybe a comeback for for Rihanna after a break and a comeback
[00:27:59] comeback for me after a break as as well. With The Iran War Today
[00:28:02] Today coming up in a few minutes' minutes' time. Stay with us
[00:29:35] into next week, hitting the 50 Celsius
[00:29:37] Celsius mark on Tuesday.