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[00:00:03] MUSIC
[00:00:16] Hello and welcome to The Context USA. I'm Sumi Somaskanda
[00:00:19] Somaskanda in Washington and I'm I'm Annita McVeigh in London. And
[00:00:23] And tonight we're focusing on the the role of intelligence sharing
[00:00:26] sharing between the US and Ukraine. Ukraine. As Ukraine intensifies attacks
[00:00:29] attacks on Russian infrastructure. infrastructure. This is a deliberate
[00:00:33] deliberate Ukrainian strategy to to take the war deeper into Russian
[00:00:36] Russian territory, to make the Russian
[00:00:37] Russian people really feel the impact.
[00:00:40] impact. A US Senate committee has has voted to hold. Former White House
[00:00:43] House medical adviser Anthony Fauci Fauci in contempt after he refused
[00:00:47] refused to answer questions about about his handling of the Covid pandemic.
[00:00:50] pandemic. If we were to grant him him immunity from telling the truth
[00:00:53] truth of what value, you know, would
[00:00:55] would his testimony be? Metta becomes
[00:00:58] becomes the latest firm to say one
[00:01:00] one of its AI models hacked another
[00:01:02] another company. This is not AI turning
[00:01:06] turning against us. This is AI doing
[00:01:09] doing exactly what it was told. On
[00:01:12] On our panel tonight, Leslie Shedd,
[00:01:14] Shedd, the President of Rising Communications Communications and Chris Meagher, Meagher, former assistant to the
[00:01:18] the Secretary of Defence for Public
[00:01:21] Public Affairs.
[00:01:32] Welcome to the programme. Ukraine's president has confirmed
[00:01:34] confirmed in the past few days that that the country has no more interceptors
[00:01:38] interceptors to defend itself against against Russian ballistic missile
[00:01:41] missile attacks, but Ukraine is continuing
[00:01:43] continuing to strike deep into Russia. Russia. Nearly four and a half years
[00:01:47] years since the full-scale invasion invasion ordered by President Putin.
[00:01:50] Putin. The latest targets were two two oil refineries a President Zelensky
[00:01:54] Zelensky says, aimed at limiting limiting the revenues Moscow is using
[00:01:56] using to fund the war. The Slavneft-Yanos
[00:01:59] Slavneft-Yanos refinery is one of of the biggest in Russia. It's been been hit before, but the regional
[00:02:03] regional governor described this this as the largest enemy drone attack.
[00:02:07] attack. The other refinery. To be be hit was the Bashneft-Novoil refinery
[00:02:11] refinery in the afar region even
[00:02:13] even further east, around 1300km.
[00:02:16] 1300km. That's 830 miles from the the border with Ukraine. President
[00:02:19] President Zelensky also said two two military patrol boats and shadow
[00:02:23] shadow fleet vessels were hit in in the Black Sea. Shadow fleet refers
[00:02:27] refers to tankers used by Russia
[00:02:29] Russia to export sanctioned oil. oil. Meanwhile in Ukraine. At least
[00:02:32] least ten deaths have been reported reported following the latest wave
[00:02:35] wave of Russian air attacks. Russian Russian drones hit an apartment block
[00:02:39] block in Zaporizhzhia and in cities
[00:02:40] cities a little further north. There
[00:02:44] There was no time to look at the
[00:02:46] the clock because the panic was overwhelming.
[00:02:48] overwhelming. People were screaming, screaming, running some hiding cars,
[00:02:52] cars, rushing out. These strikes
[00:02:54] strikes come years into this conflict conflict and conversations persist
[00:02:57] persist on what effective support support for Ukraine looks like from
[00:03:01] from its allies. A big part of that that is technology, weapons, air
[00:03:04] air defence systems and so on. But But there's also intelligence. And
[00:03:08] And on that, the relationship between between this Trump administration
[00:03:11] administration and Kyiv has been
[00:03:13] been mixed. Yeah. Remember that acrimonious acrimonious Oval Office meeting between
[00:03:16] between President Trump and Zelensky Zelensky early last year? After that,
[00:03:20] that, the US paused all intelligence intelligence sharing with Kyiv in
[00:03:23] in March, Ukraine took rapid losses losses on the battlefield before
[00:03:26] before President Trump relented after
[00:03:29] after pressure from Western allies. allies. But there are more. Positive
[00:03:33] Positive signs, Politico reports reports today that the intelligence intelligence sharing relationship
[00:03:36] relationship between the US and Ukraine Ukraine has bounced back to previous
[00:03:40] previous highs. They're citing various various US senators who say they've
[00:03:44] they've seen evidence of an improved improved agreement and believed it's
[00:03:48] it's helped helped Kyiv gain an advantage.
[00:03:51] advantage. Let's speak now. To Melinda Melinda Haring senior fellow at the
[00:03:55] the Atlantic Council's Eurasia Centre Centre for more on all of this. Melinda,
[00:03:58] Melinda, it's always good to speak speak with you. I want to start with
[00:04:02] with the latest strikes we've seen seen back and forth. It is clear
[00:04:05] clear that Ukraine is continuing continuing to strike Russia's energy
[00:04:09] energy infrastructure, so oil refineries refineries we've been covering the
[00:04:12] the last few days. The strikes on
[00:04:14] on Wildberries this online logistics
[00:04:16] logistics company, Russia's Amazon.
[00:04:19] Amazon. And is this strategy working?
[00:04:22] working? Yes, it is great to be back
[00:04:23] back with you. So Zelensky has decided
[00:04:26] decided to take the war to Russians
[00:04:29] Russians and they have increased increased the number of strikes in in Russia. They've the Ukrainians
[00:04:33] Ukrainians have hit every major oil
[00:04:35] oil and gas factory in the country
[00:04:38] country except for one. And as a a result of the precision of the
[00:04:41] the strikes, we're seeing that the the Russians have fuel shortages.
[00:04:44] shortages. They've banned the export export of diesel. Just to give you
[00:04:47] you one example, the Ukrainians have
[00:04:50] have hit Wildberries the Russian Russian Amazon at least ten different
[00:04:53] different times. So Ukraine is hitting hitting targets and it's hitting
[00:04:57] hitting with increasing depth. I I also want to ask you about this
[00:05:01] this reporting. We've seen about about the intelligence sharing between
[00:05:04] between the US and Ukraine right
[00:05:06] right now. What do you make of this?
[00:05:11] this? So I don't make much of it. it. I think the relationship between between Kyiv and Washington when
[00:05:15] when it comes to intelligence support support is very strong and very good
[00:05:18] good and has been for a while. You You can criticise Donald Trump's
[00:05:22] Trump's stance on Ukraine all day day long. I have my own beefs with
[00:05:26] with it, but he's maintained intelligence intelligence support since they turned
[00:05:29] turned it back on. It's been consistent. consistent. And he's also allowing
[00:05:32] allowing the Europeans to buy weapons weapons through the Perl programme.
[00:05:35] programme. And that's really important. important. That allows European governments
[00:05:38] governments to buy US weapons and and give them to Ukraine. But the
[00:05:41] the Intel support is absolutely, absolutely, absolutely crucial. Ukraine
[00:05:45] Ukraine is striking these targets
[00:05:47] targets with precision because of of us and this intelligence support
[00:05:51] support since that turn off last last year has been in place. You
[00:05:55] You know, it's interesting back in in March, we saw President Trump Trump when he was asked whether Russia
[00:05:58] Russia was helping Iran with intelligence intelligence in the US war with Iran.
[00:06:02] Iran. He said maybe, but perhaps perhaps President Putin thinks we're
[00:06:05] we're helping Ukraine a little bit. bit. I mean, what does that tell
[00:06:08] tell us about how President Trump
[00:06:10] Trump sees intelligence or weapons
[00:06:12] weapons aid to Ukraine? So President
[00:06:17] President Trump allegedly reportedly reportedly said gave permission for
[00:06:20] for deep strikes in Russia. He is
[00:06:23] is comfortable using intelligence intelligence support to back up America's
[00:06:27] America's national interests and and to back up its allies. And I
[00:06:29] I think we see President Trump growing growing increasingly frustrated with
[00:06:33] with Putin. You know, it's 2 or 3 3 steps forward and then a step back.
[00:06:36] back. So I see evidence that his
[00:06:39] his position is getting stronger stronger towards Ukraine. But I think
[00:06:42] think President Trump is comfortable
[00:06:45] comfortable using our intelligence intelligence assets for our own advantage
[00:06:48] advantage is how I would read that that to. OK, Melinda Haring always
[00:06:52] always good to get your analysis. analysis. Thank you so much. Thank
[00:06:54] Thank you. OK, let's bring in our
[00:06:57] our panel Leslie Shedd president president of Rising Communications Communications and Chris Meagher,
[00:07:00] Meagher, former assistant to the the Secretary of Defence for Public
[00:07:04] Public Affairs Chris. Intelligence Intelligence sharing is, of course,
[00:07:06] course, by its very nature a much
[00:07:09] much more covert aspect of war. But
[00:07:12] But given the strikes that we're we're seeing, these deeper strikes strikes into Russia by Ukraine, is
[00:07:16] is it possible, do you think, to to quantify the role of intelligence
[00:07:20] intelligence sharing in the war right
[00:07:22] right now? Oh, well, it's unmistakable
[00:07:26] unmistakable that it's having a positive positive impact. You know, the Ukrainians
[00:07:29] Ukrainians certainly have capabilities, capabilities, but they don't have
[00:07:33] have capabilities like the United United States. And they wouldn't
[00:07:36] wouldn't be able to do the targeting
[00:07:40] targeting for their capabilities capabilities without the United States. States. You know, we provided Intel
[00:07:43] Intel sharing in the last administration, administration, but there are definitely
[00:07:46] definitely limits to what we allowed allowed the Ukrainians to do with
[00:07:49] with that information in order to to limit our own footprint in the
[00:07:53] the war. But there's no doubt that
[00:07:56] that this is that their ability to
[00:07:58] to target and to hit targets that
[00:08:01] that actually have a meaningful impact impact on the war and the shape of
[00:08:04] of the war and the direction of the
[00:08:07] the war is a is an asset and a benefit benefit that we're providing to them.
[00:08:10] them. Yeah. Leslie, I saw you nodding nodding along there. What do you
[00:08:14] you make of this? I mean, I was just just in Ukraine last month and while
[00:08:17] while I was there, we got to meet meet with President Zelensky, with with the Minister of Foreign Affairs
[00:08:21] Affairs and other officials. And And in every single meeting they they talked to us about the importance
[00:08:25] importance of this intelligence sharing sharing and how crucial it has been
[00:08:27] been and their long range strikes. strikes. And I think it's important
[00:08:30] important to note it's not just US US intelligence that's helping with
[00:08:33] with this. While some of these strikes strikes are being done with Ukrainian
[00:08:37] Ukrainian made drones, others are are being done with US made weapons,
[00:08:40] weapons, for example, there are several several reports out that zone Five's
[00:08:44] Five's rusty dagger, which is one one of those low cost, you know,
[00:08:47] know, easier to make cruise missiles, missiles, is actually that one blew
[00:08:50] blew up a semiconductor plant back back in June. And so you're seeing
[00:08:54] seeing a lot of really great synergy synergy right now between the United
[00:08:57] United States with our defence sector sector and our intelligence. Well,
[00:09:00] Well, Leslie, do you think President President Trump is reluctant to talk
[00:09:03] talk that up? He's worried to be be seen as partisan to Ukraine in
[00:09:07] in this. I mean, every time he's he's the only one the only president
[00:09:10] president that has been out on TV TV talking about how great it is is that they're making these long
[00:09:14] long range strikes. I don't think think that this is any, you know,
[00:09:18] know, secret at all. You know, like
[00:09:20] like was just mentioned while President President Biden certainly did provide
[00:09:24] provide some weapons and did intelligence intelligence sharing, he put so many
[00:09:28] many handcuffs on the Ukrainians Ukrainians as to how they could use use those that it really hampered
[00:09:31] hampered them from making these long long range strikes. And President
[00:09:34] President Trump right now is not not only allowing them and publicly
[00:09:37] publicly cheering them, he is giving giving them both the intelligence
[00:09:40] intelligence and the US weapons systems systems to do it. And Chris, it's
[00:09:43] it's not a one way street, is it? it? Ukraine is likely sharing intelligence
[00:09:47] intelligence on Russia with the U. U. S a but to the impact of all of
[00:09:51] of this, do you think do you have
[00:09:52] have any sense that this is creating
[00:09:55] creating a pressure on President President Putin in terms of any talks
[00:09:59] talks that might happen to try to to end this war? Yeah, absolutely.
[00:10:03] absolutely. I think we need to put
[00:10:05] put Russia on their back foot in in order to get them to come to the
[00:10:09] the negotiating table. You know,
[00:10:11] know, this became a war of attrition.
[00:10:14] attrition. And Vladimir Putin thought thought that he could ride out Ukraine
[00:10:16] Ukraine and ride out the United States. States. And I think that came in
[00:10:19] in large part because of Donald Trump.
[00:10:23] Trump. Donald Trump's wishy washiness
[00:10:26] washiness and capitulation to Vladimir Vladimir Putin over the course of
[00:10:28] of the last year and a half. But
[00:10:31] But I do think that, you know, putting putting the pedal to the metal, giving
[00:10:35] giving the Ukrainians the capabilities capabilities they need to go on offence
[00:10:38] offence is going to put them in a
[00:10:40] a better position to negotiate and
[00:10:43] and out for this war at the negotiating negotiating table. This war is going
[00:10:47] going to come to an end only when when the two sides come to a negotiating
[00:10:50] negotiating table. It's up to the the United States and partners and
[00:10:54] and allies to put Ukraine in the the best possible position to go
[00:10:58] go to the negotiating table. And
[00:11:02] And Leslie on that point as well. well. Obviously, at the moment, we're
[00:11:05] we're very much aware that Ukraine Ukraine has run out of interceptors
[00:11:08] interceptors to deal with Russian Russian ballistic missiles. But on
[00:11:10] on that question of the strikes that that it's carrying out deeper into
[00:11:14] into Russia, do you think that is is putting any significant pressure
[00:11:17] pressure or starting to put significant significant pressure on President
[00:11:20] President Putin? It absolutely is.
[00:11:22] is. And it is doing it in two different different ways. First of all, they
[00:11:25] they are targeting actual, you know, know, the lifeblood right now behind
[00:11:29] behind Putin's war machine. They're They're targeting energy infrastructure,
[00:11:33] infrastructure, semiconductor plants. plants. They're targeting locations locations that have, you know, have
[00:11:37] have these ballistic missiles, the the launch pads that they use for
[00:11:39] for them. But in addition, this Wildberries Wildberries strikes that have been
[00:11:43] been happening, it's not just that that Wildberries is used for logistics
[00:11:47] logistics to help the Russian military.
[00:11:49] military. This is also a lifeline lifeline of the Russian economy.
[00:11:52] economy. There are a tonne of Russians Russians that use that for their their small businesses in the same
[00:11:56] same way that Americans use Amazon. Amazon. So going after this not only
[00:11:59] only is putting pressure directly directly on Russia's war machine, machine, it is also putting pressure
[00:12:03] pressure on Russia's economy. But But Leslie, why not then why is President
[00:12:07] President Trump backtracked on allowing allowing Ukraine to have the licence
[00:12:10] licence to make those critical air air defence systems in their country?
[00:12:14] country? And as Chris said over the the last year and a half has gone
[00:12:17] gone back and forth on who he thinks thinks is responsible for this war.
[00:12:19] war. I mean, on the Patriots, I just
[00:12:23] just I honestly don't know why suddenly suddenly it's changed my understanding
[00:12:25] understanding from speaking with with people inside the administration
[00:12:28] administration is that there is a a hesitancy to make sure that we
[00:12:31] we have enough patriots. I think think the more people that can make
[00:12:34] make patriots, the better. And you you know, if there is concern about
[00:12:38] about if somehow Russia ends up taking taking over Ukraine, that they could
[00:12:41] could get access to this weapon, weapon, I think the best option would
[00:12:44] would be to put the plant in a place place like Germany. They've got the
[00:12:47] the infrastructure, they'll have have the skilled workers already, already, and it's close enough to
[00:12:50] to the front lines that we can get get them made as quickly as possible
[00:12:53] possible and get them into Ukraine. Ukraine. Chris, what do you think
[00:12:56] think is going to change the metric metric on this from the US perspective?
[00:13:00] perspective? If anything? I think
[00:13:03] think it's what I said earlier, you you know, continuing to work with
[00:13:07] with our partners and allies in Europe Europe to make sure that Ukraine
[00:13:11] Ukraine has the capabilities it needs needs to wage this war. I think we've
[00:13:14] we've seen some positive steps in
[00:13:16] in that direction, but we need to
[00:13:18] to continue to shift the war in Ukraine's Ukraine's favour so that they can
[00:13:22] can go to the negotiating table in in the best position possible, and
[00:13:25] and we can finally put an end to to this. OK, Chris and Leslie, thank
[00:13:29] thank you for those thoughts. We We have to take a short break. Back Back in a
[00:14:33] he was their friend. Paul's heart-wrenching heart-wrenching stuff that made me me feel sick. The big cases, funeral
[00:14:37] funeral Home horror watch on BBC
[00:14:40] BBC News. It might be the middle
[00:14:46] middle of summer, but it is still still a busy time on Capitol Hill
[00:14:49] Hill here in Washington. A US Senate Senate committee has voted to hold
[00:14:52] hold the former White House Chief Chief Medical Adviser Anthony Fauci,
[00:14:56] Fauci, in contempt after he refused refused to answer questions about
[00:14:58] about his handling of the Covid pandemic. pandemic. The infectious disease
[00:15:02] disease specialist faced the committee committee last week. There he was
[00:15:05] was grilled by senators about the the pandemic and whether he covered
[00:15:09] covered up its origins. But we didn't didn't learn much. Doctor Fauci invoked
[00:15:12] invoked his constitutional right right against self-incrimination. self-incrimination. You've likely
[00:15:16] likely heard it described as the
[00:15:17] the Fifth Amendment more than 100
[00:15:20] 100 times. Well, former President
[00:15:23] President Joe Biden gave Fauci a a pre-emptive pardon on his last
[00:15:26] last day in office in 2025, protecting
[00:15:29] protecting him from federal prosecution
[00:15:31] prosecution for his actions between
[00:15:34] between 2014 and 2020. Five Doctor Doctor Fauci has argued that Kentucky
[00:15:37] Kentucky Senator Rand Paul was trying trying to put him behind bars. It's
[00:15:41] It's not clear if the vote to hold
[00:15:43] hold him in contempt will lead to to a criminal prosecution, while
[00:15:46] while the next step would typically typically be a vote on the Senate
[00:15:49] Senate floor. Senator Paul says he
[00:15:51] he intends to send the contempt resolution resolution directly to the Justice
[00:15:54] Justice Department. The next decision decision we have decided is we will
[00:15:58] will forward it. It's the committee's committee's verdict that he should
[00:16:01] should be held in contempt and it it will be sent. But no one said said that we won't bring it before
[00:16:05] before the Senate. We'll see what
[00:16:06] what happens over time. But this
[00:16:11] this is outside of the ordinary bill bill making process. So it doesn't doesn't have to go to the House,
[00:16:14] House, doesn't have to be signed signed by the President and really really doesn't have to go before
[00:16:18] before the Senate. There is some some precedent for doing it that that way, and it still may be done
[00:16:22] done that way. But for now, we will will hand carry this over to the
[00:16:25] the Attorney General. We will hand
[00:16:26] hand carry this to the district court
[00:16:30] court here in Columbia, and we will will as a committee, we have voted
[00:16:33] voted the majority to refer this, this, so that will be accomplished
[00:16:36] accomplished today. But Mister Chairman. Chairman. Doctor Fauci has said that
[00:16:39] that you are out to get him if you're you're circumventing the normal Senate
[00:16:42] Senate procedure. Aren't you proving proving his point? A million Americans
[00:16:45] Americans died and I think they deserve deserve to know the truth. Well,
[00:16:49] Well, the Republican led committee committee voted 8 to 5 on the resolution
[00:16:52] resolution to hold Doctor Fauci in in contempt. All Democrats opposed
[00:16:56] opposed it. Senator Richard Blumenthal Blumenthal told reporters after the
[00:16:59] the vote that serious questions had had to be asked of the Covid pandemic.
[00:17:02] pandemic. Management. But these motions,
[00:17:05] motions, he said, were not. It. It
[00:17:08] It is a disgrace to the Constitution
[00:17:10] Constitution to hold someone in contempt
[00:17:13] contempt simply for properly exercising exercising a constitutional right,
[00:17:16] right, namely the right against self-incrimination. self-incrimination. When the chairman
[00:17:19] chairman of the committee says his his objective in the proceeding is
[00:17:23] is to put that person behind bars.
[00:17:26] bars. And joining us now is Caitlin Caitlin Owens, a senior policy reporter
[00:17:29] reporter at Axios who covers health. health. Caitlin, welcome to the programme.
[00:17:33] programme. And in fact, you were were reporting on health for Axios
[00:17:36] Axios during the pandemic. And at at that point, Anthony Fauci became became a hugely well-known figure,
[00:17:40] figure, didn't he? Not just in America America but around the world. Tell
[00:17:44] Tell us more about him. Absolutely.
[00:17:48] Absolutely. Doctor Fauci, he is retired retired from his service now, but
[00:17:52] but he was in his position for decades
[00:17:55] decades in the US he worked through through the Aids crisis and multiple
[00:17:59] multiple other infectious disease disease outbreaks. But, you know,
[00:18:02] know, Covid was when America really
[00:18:04] really got to know him. He was on on the, you know, on the news all
[00:18:08] all the time. The I don't know if if anyone remembers, but the nightly
[00:18:11] nightly Covid briefings with President President Trump, Vice President Pence,
[00:18:15] Pence, top health officials and then then Doctor Fauci. So he you know,
[00:18:19] know, at first he became one of the the just the premier voices that
[00:18:23] that were telling Americans what
[00:18:25] what was happening and what to expect.
[00:18:27] expect. But that kind of mass goodwill
[00:18:31] goodwill was very short lived. Whereas
[00:18:33] Whereas the pandemic response became
[00:18:35] became more controversial and split,
[00:18:38] split, Americans very much bipartisan
[00:18:41] bipartisan lines. Doctor Fauci. Tell
[00:18:43] Tell us more about how that relationship relationship between President Trump
[00:18:46] Trump and Doctor Fauci and by extension,
[00:18:49] extension, with the Republican Party Party evolved. You know, so what
[00:18:53] what happened before last week's
[00:18:56] week's hearing is Republicans released released Fauci's diaries that were
[00:18:59] were stored on a government server. server. And so it was it's fascinating.
[00:19:02] fascinating. We can actually see see Fauci's real time reflections
[00:19:06] reflections on his relationship with with President Trump and even behind
[00:19:09] behind closed doors. They were up up and down. I think what's important
[00:19:12] important to remember that is the the pandemic moron. You know, kind
[00:19:15] kind of into the summer of 2020,
[00:19:18] 2020, they were two men with very very different goals. Doctor Fauci
[00:19:21] Fauci was a scientist. He was trying trying to address the pandemic and
[00:19:24] and public health. President Trump
[00:19:27] Trump was a politician. He was thinking thinking bigger than public health. health. And, you know, there was
[00:19:30] was an election coming up that year. year. And so, you know, you started
[00:19:33] started to see a lot of chafing between between the two men. And, you know,
[00:19:36] know, it spilt out into the public public about the best way to handle
[00:19:39] handle the virus, about what people people should be doing just about
[00:19:42] about personal measures. And, and, and, you know, those divides over
[00:19:46] over the pandemic, they only got got deeper and more partisan. And
[00:19:50] And Caitlin, just briefly, if you you would tell everyone why, then
[00:19:54] then Doctor Fauci is in front of
[00:19:55] of the Senate committee. Republicans, Republicans, it's been six years
[00:19:59] years later, but Republicans like like Senator Rand Paul, they still
[00:20:03] still want to talk about particularly particularly Covid origins and how
[00:20:06] how the pandemic got started. And
[00:20:09] And they feel very strongly that that Doctor Fauci lied about what
[00:20:13] what he knew and when about those
[00:20:15] those origins. And so they subpoenaed
[00:20:17] subpoenaed him to come before the the committee and testify and answer
[00:20:20] answer their questions as they investigate investigate how the pandemic got
[00:20:23] got started. OK, Caitlin, thank you
[00:20:25] you very much. Caitlin Owens from
[00:20:29] from Axios. Let's bring in Leslie Leslie and Chris on this. And I think
[00:20:33] think it's important to underline
[00:20:34] underline this contempt vote doesn't doesn't address that underlying allegation
[00:20:38] allegation that Anita was just discussing discussing there with the reporter
[00:20:42] reporter that Republicans believe believe that perhaps Doctor Fauci
[00:20:45] Fauci knew that the pandemic started started in a laboratory, not in a
[00:20:47] a wet market, and then misled the the public or Congress about it.
[00:20:50] it. Again, this contempt vote is is simply about him pleading the
[00:20:54] the fifth in that hearing. But, Chris, Chris, to start with you and we heard
[00:20:57] heard Rand Paul there say a million
[00:20:59] million people died of Covid. We
[00:21:01] We deserve to have answers. Do you
[00:21:04] you agree? I mean, sure, I think
[00:21:09] think that we need to understand
[00:21:11] understand as best we can how to
[00:21:14] to prevent something like this from from happening again. You know, I
[00:21:17] I thought it was really telling what what Caitlin talked about the two
[00:21:20] two different perspectives of the the men sort of running this Donald
[00:21:23] Donald Trump and Doctor Fauci, you you know, Doctor Fauci trying to
[00:21:26] to address it in a scientific way.
[00:21:29] way. President Trump handling it it because he's a politician, you
[00:21:33] you know, and sometimes those things things don't match up. I was at the the White House for the first two
[00:21:37] two years of the Biden administration. administration. We were enduring enduring the same thing. You know,
[00:21:41] know, it's tricky and it's complicated complicated when you're trying to
[00:21:43] to do the right thing and politics politics become involved. I think
[00:21:46] think that's what you see here, doctor
[00:21:48] doctor Fauci was set to testify in
[00:21:50] in front of a committee where the
[00:21:53] the chair literally said that his his goal and his mission is to put
[00:21:56] put this man behind bars. So why
[00:21:59] why would you do anything close to
[00:22:02] to something that might be used against against you to throw you in jail?
[00:22:05] jail? I don't know why it would come
[00:22:08] come as a surprise to anybody that that he would plead the fifth. It's
[00:22:11] It's complicated where we go from from here. Certainly it's going to to get wrapped up in court. I would
[00:22:16] would imagine one way or the other. other. And you know, I'm no expert
[00:22:19] expert on that side of things. But
[00:22:21] But you can't be surprised by Doctor
[00:22:24] Doctor Fauci's move pleading the the fifth when Rand Paul is out there
[00:22:27] there talking about how he, you know, know, deserves to be behind bars.
[00:22:30] bars. And Leslie, let's get your your take on this because obviously
[00:22:34] obviously after the pandemic, there there deserves to be, doesn't there there a sober reflection on what
[00:22:37] what happened and what could have have been done better in order to,
[00:22:41] to, you know, heaven forbid, if there's there's another pandemic, save lives.
[00:22:44] lives. But, you know, given what what Rand Paul has said about wanting
[00:22:47] wanting to Anthony Fauci to be behind
[00:22:50] behind bars, does that really scupper
[00:22:51] scupper that right from the outset? outset? Well, I think it's really
[00:22:55] really important to start with the
[00:22:56] the fact that we were misled by scientists, scientists, including Doctor Fauci.
[00:23:00] Fauci. When I worked for the House House Foreign Affairs Committee,
[00:23:03] Committee, we did an extensive review review of everything for over a year,
[00:23:07] year, and we wrote three reports reports on the origins of Covid.
[00:23:10] Covid. And within that we found just just one glaring example of the way
[00:23:13] way in which we were misled is that that Doctor Fauci and other scientists
[00:23:17] scientists repeatedly said that the the virus could not have been genetically genetically modified, could not have
[00:23:21] have been man made, because when when you do that, it leaves a mark
[00:23:24] mark on viruses. This was one of of their top arguments when they
[00:23:26] they were talking about how it couldn't couldn't have come from. Most scientists scientists believe this did start
[00:23:30] start with an. A zoonotic infection. infection. In other words, an infection
[00:23:33] infection being passed from an animal animal to the. American people. About
[00:23:37] About that because a doctor at the the University of North Carolina. Carolina. Our report found a doctor
[00:23:41] doctor at the University of North North Carolina by the name of Doctor
[00:23:44] Doctor Ralph Baric. He figured out
[00:23:46] out a way to modify coronaviruses
[00:23:50] coronaviruses in 2005 that left no
[00:23:51] no mark. And that same research was
[00:23:54] was duplicated at the Wuhan lab in
[00:23:57] in 2016. For years. But that. Doesn't Doesn't prove that scientists were
[00:24:01] were actually lying about the findings findings that they have had. Doctor
[00:24:03] Doctor Fauci himself has said that that he is open to the theory that
[00:24:06] that there was a lab leak, as you've you've said, that your committee
[00:24:09] committee had researched into, but but that he still believes that the
[00:24:13] the outbreak came from this market. market. But he lied about this fact.
[00:24:17] fact. He could have said yes, this this could have been manufactured.
[00:24:19] manufactured. There are ways to genetically
[00:24:22] genetically modify and create coronaviruses coronaviruses that leave no mark
[00:24:25] mark and instead for months and months months they told us there wasn't.
[00:24:29] wasn't. When there was. Doctor Ralph Ralph Baric has actually come out out and said, yeah, I've known about
[00:24:33] about this. They knew about this. this. I don't know why they didn't
[00:24:36] didn't say anything. So I don't necessarily necessarily think that Doctor Fauci
[00:24:38] Fauci was trying to be nefarious nefarious in his actions. I think
[00:24:42] think that scientists try to protect protect other scientists, and that
[00:24:45] that is going to be their number number one thing that they do. So
[00:24:49] So while, you know, I understand understand that he might feel frustrated, frustrated, he might feel attacked,
[00:24:52] attacked, I think that he should should have used this opportunity opportunity to go on the record.
[00:24:56] record. And if he believes that he he did everything right, defend himself.
[00:24:59] himself. He's been given this borderline borderline blanket immunity from
[00:25:03] from Biden. So use the opportunity opportunity both to defend yourself
[00:25:06] yourself and importantly, to discuss discuss what he thinks the origin
[00:25:09] origin of this virus came from. We We are never going to be able to
[00:25:13] to get over this. We're never going going to be able to make sure we're
[00:25:15] we're prepared for the next one unless unless we know about what happened
[00:25:18] happened this time. I want to give give Chris an opportunity to respond
[00:25:20] respond to what you've been saying.
[00:25:24] saying. Well, first of all, I think think if Republicans were actually
[00:25:28] actually interested in honest testimony
[00:25:29] testimony and a full exploration exploration of unresolved pandemic
[00:25:33] pandemic questions, they could have have offered him immunity. Covering
[00:25:36] Covering the testimony instead of
[00:25:39] of the rhetoric that that Senator Senator Paul had offered to Doctor
[00:25:42] Doctor Fauci in the first place. place. The second point I would make
[00:25:45] make is we're talking about research research and studies being done by
[00:25:48] by people here in the United States
[00:25:51] States when ultimately the only people people who actually have the answers
[00:25:54] answers that we need and are looking looking for are in China, and there's
[00:25:58] there's no way to hold those people people accountable. OK. So we can
[00:26:02] can speculate. We can talk about
[00:26:04] about science as best we can. But But yeah, Chris,
[00:27:37] temperatures ramping up further into into next week, hitting the 50 Celsius Celsius mark on
[00:29:56] means for you. Go online at bbc.com/business bbc.com/business to get the latest latest news wherever you are. Business
[00:30:00] Business on BBC News. Make the connection.
[00:30:08] connection. MUSIC
[00:30:16] Hello and welcome back to The
[00:30:18] Context USA. I'm Annita McVeigh in
[00:30:20] in London. And I'm Sumi Somaskanda
[00:30:22] Somaskanda in Washington. Later this this half hour Metta becomes the
[00:30:25] the latest firm to say one of its
[00:30:28] its AI models hacked another company.
[00:30:40] company. Welcome back to the programme. programme. Let's turn to the Middle Middle East now we want to take a
[00:30:44] a closer look at Gaza today. A few few developments there. Uganda's
[00:30:47] Uganda's parliament has approved approved the deployment of troops
[00:30:49] troops to Gaza as part of a proposed proposed international stabilisation
[00:30:53] stabilisation force. The Defence Defence Minister said. The move followed followed an invitation from Washington
[00:30:56] Washington to help secure the territory territory and monitor ceasefire