BBCNEWS — The Context
20260915 200000 UTC
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[00:00:07] MUSIC
[00:00:16] Hello, I'm Ben Brown and this
[00:00:18] is The Context on BBC News. Our headlines
[00:00:20] headlines baby wards in England are
[00:00:23] are to get cot cams after an inquiry inquiry into the nurse Lucy Letby
[00:00:26] Letby who murdered seven babies, babies, found that lives could have
[00:00:30] have been saved. The European Union Union chief hits out at what she
[00:00:34] she calls Russia's reckless and dangerous dangerous behaviour after a drone
[00:00:37] drone is shot down by Nato fighter
[00:00:40] fighter jets. China warns against
[00:00:43] against turning outer space into into a battlefield as the United
[00:00:46] United States confirms for the first first time that it has deployed space
[00:00:50] space weapons. The chief executive executive of the tech giant Nvidia
[00:00:54] Nvidia says there's no need for new
[00:00:57] new laws on AI, even though concerns
[00:00:59] concerns over artificial intelligence intelligence are growing. The market
[00:01:03] market forces are already there. there. We don't need any new laws.
[00:01:05] laws. We don't need new regulations.
[00:01:10] regulations. And Matthew Rhys makes
[00:01:12] makes history at the TV Emmy Awards Awards after winning two leading
[00:01:15] leading acting prizes in the same
[00:01:19] same night. Hello. Welcome to the
[00:01:29] the context the lives of some babies
[00:01:32] babies could have been saved if action action had been taken earlier by
[00:01:36] by staff at the Countess of Chester Chester Hospital in north-west England.
[00:01:40] England. That is the conclusion at at the end of a long running inquiry
[00:01:43] inquiry into how the nurse, Lucy
[00:01:45] Lucy Letby, was able to murder seven
[00:01:47] seven babies and attempt to murder murder seven others. Well, the chair
[00:01:51] chair of the inquiry, Lady Justice Justice Thirlwall, said there had
[00:01:54] had been a complete failure to protect protect babies on the hospital's
[00:01:58] hospital's neonatal unit between between 2015 and 2016. Judith Morris
[00:02:02] Morris reports. No babies were murdered.
[00:02:06] murdered. Three Lucy Letby. In the the Lucy Letby case, there are two
[00:02:10] two universes as that of her supporters supporters convinced of her innocence
[00:02:14] innocence and that of the courts courts and the Thirlwall Inquiry
[00:02:17] Inquiry where her guilt is settled. settled. It was established to examine
[00:02:21] examine what those around Letby did
[00:02:23] did as babies kept dying and she she fell under suspicion. And it's
[00:02:27] it's found that if the hospital had
[00:02:28] had acted as it should have done,
[00:02:31] done, babies could have been saved. saved. There was a complete failure
[00:02:35] failure at all levels to invoke safeguarding
[00:02:38] safeguarding procedures at any point point looking for clinical or other
[00:02:42] other explanations for deaths and
[00:02:44] and collapses was not wrong. But But once there was suspicion that
[00:02:47] that Letby may be causing harm, deliberately
[00:02:51] deliberately safeguarding steps should should have been taken. No one seems
[00:02:54] seems to have thought that safeguarding safeguarding action is required when
[00:02:58] when a member of staff is suspected
[00:02:59] suspected of causing deliberate harm.
[00:03:02] harm. It isn't necessary to be sure
[00:03:06] sure suspicion is enough. The offences offences of murder and attempted attempted murder have been identified
[00:03:10] identified and you have been identified identified as a suspect of these
[00:03:14] these offences. Letby has been convicted convicted of murdering seven babies
[00:03:16] babies and attempting to murder a
[00:03:19] a further 7 in 2015 and 2016. And And you're going to have to go to
[00:03:22] to the police station to be questioned questioned about these allegations. allegations. Today's report doesn't
[00:03:25] doesn't specify how many of those those attacks could have been prevented,
[00:03:28] prevented, but lays out a timeline
[00:03:30] timeline of missed opportunities. opportunities. In June 2015, three
[00:03:34] three babies died in quick succession, succession, but it wasn't viewed
[00:03:37] viewed as an unusual cluster of deaths. deaths. That August, a fourth baby
[00:03:41] baby died and consultants disregarded disregarded a baby's blood test,
[00:03:44] test, which suggested insulin poisoning.
[00:03:46] poisoning. After the fifth baby death
[00:03:49] death in October 2015, Letby was was kept on the ward. A doctor failed
[00:03:53] failed to report his suspicions about
[00:03:55] about her in relation to one baby.
[00:03:57] baby. In February 2016, and even even after consultants met managers
[00:04:00] managers in May that year, safeguarding safeguarding rules weren't followed.
[00:04:04] followed. Two more babies would go
[00:04:05] go on to die. The report's scathing
[00:04:08] scathing about the hospital's former former executives. It finds that
[00:04:11] that director of nursing Alison Kelly Kelly in the middle here pitted nurses
[00:04:14] nurses against doctors with misguided misguided determination to protect
[00:04:17] protect Letby. The former medical medical director Ian Harvey, is said
[00:04:21] said to have tried to control the the narrative, writing documents
[00:04:24] documents himself to support the the nurse and the then CEO, Tony
[00:04:28] Tony Chambers is described as dictatorial, dictatorial, running an exercise
[00:04:31] exercise in spin and stalling the the police investigation for nearly
[00:04:34] nearly a year. This is behaviour
[00:04:37] behaviour by NHS managers that should should never have been allowed to
[00:04:41] to happen, and a complete disregard disregard for all of the systems
[00:04:44] systems that would have protected
[00:04:46] protected these children. Safeguarding
[00:04:48] Safeguarding HR. Whistleblowing, Whistleblowing, freedom to speak
[00:04:52] speak out, escalation of concerns
[00:04:54] concerns all of it completely treated
[00:04:57] treated like it didn't matter. It's It's pretty grim reading. Sadly.
[00:05:00] Sadly. Doctor John Gibbs is one of of the senior doctors who battled
[00:05:04] battled to raise concerns about Lucy Lucy Letby with hospital managers.
[00:05:07] managers. But he says he also accepts accepts that the consultants bear
[00:05:10] bear collective responsibility for for some failings. Do you look back
[00:05:14] back and think, I wish I'd done more?
[00:05:16] more? We'd done more. Yes. I wish
[00:05:20] wish we consultants had been brave
[00:05:22] brave enough to follow our suspicions suspicions and escalate things to
[00:05:25] to the police earlier. And when I
[00:05:27] I say we consultants, I am responsible
[00:05:30] responsible as well. And if my other other consultant colleagues didn't
[00:05:34] didn't go to the police, I should
[00:05:35] should have gone to the police. What
[00:05:39] What we did, particularly when we we were having a lot of resistance resistance dealing with the managers,
[00:05:42] managers, what we did, which helped helped us enormously is that we all
[00:05:46] all stuck together. The Countess Countess of Chester Hospital is now
[00:05:50] now under new management, responding responding to the Thirlwall report,
[00:05:52] report, its current CEO said we'll we'll approach its recommendations recommendations with openness and
[00:05:56] and a firm commitment to build on on the progress we've already made
[00:05:59] made in improving our hospital's hospital's governance, safety and
[00:06:02] and culture since that time. We acknowledge, acknowledge, however, that there's there's more to be done. Our priority
[00:06:06] priority is to ensure that we address address the Thirlwall report's recommendations
[00:06:09] recommendations as swiftly as possible.
[00:06:11] possible. The report makes 17 recommendations
[00:06:14] recommendations for the NHS in England, England, including tighter controls
[00:06:17] controls on access to insulin, compulsory compulsory rules on safeguarding
[00:06:20] safeguarding and the introduction introduction of cameras monitoring monitoring all cots and incubators
[00:06:24] incubators on neonatal units which which wasn't available at the Countess
[00:06:27] Countess of Chester Hospital. I have have asked my officials to urgently
[00:06:30] urgently develop plans for Cot cams,
[00:06:32] cams, which can also help parents parents feel better connected to
[00:06:36] to their babies when they aren't aren't able to be with them in person.
[00:06:39] person. As well as aiming her fire fire at the hospital and recommending
[00:06:42] recommending change, Lady Justice Justice Thirlwall had words about
[00:06:45] about how the babies families were were dealt with. The anger some parents
[00:06:48] parents feel at the way they were were treated by the Countess was
[00:06:52] was palpable. They were kept in the the dark for years about what was
[00:06:56] was happening, about the fact that that there were concerns that their
[00:06:58] their babies may have been deliberately deliberately harmed. The lack of
[00:07:02] of consideration shown to the parents
[00:07:04] parents at that time was reprehensible.
[00:07:07] reprehensible. The baby's parents parents have welcomed Thurwell's Thurwell's findings, but they say
[00:07:10] say the real test of this inquiry inquiry and its report will be whether
[00:07:14] whether it paves the way for real
[00:07:17] real change across the NHS. Well, Well, we're going to talk more about
[00:07:21] about this now with Marian Knight, Knight, who's a public health physician
[00:07:24] physician as well as the national national chair of embrace UK, which which is an academic collaboration
[00:07:28] collaboration that tracks and investigates investigates the deaths of mothers
[00:07:32] mothers and babies across the UK. UK. And she actually testifies as
[00:07:36] as a key witness at that inquiry. inquiry. So thank you very much for
[00:07:39] for being with us. Well, I suppose suppose at the end of all of this
[00:07:42] this and at the end of the inquiry, inquiry, what are the lessons that
[00:07:46] that we have to learn and do you
[00:07:48] you think they will be learned? So
[00:07:51] So Lady Justice Thirlwall was absolutely absolutely clear that there were
[00:07:54] were many missed opportunities. And
[00:07:57] And we've got systems in place that
[00:07:59] that make sure that we should not
[00:08:02] not encounter such missed opportunities opportunities in the future. We've
[00:08:05] We've got we now have in place real
[00:08:08] real time systems which allow us
[00:08:10] us to monitor data to look at unusual
[00:08:14] unusual patterns of baby deaths and
[00:08:17] and to escalate concerns about those
[00:08:19] those to ensure that they're investigated
[00:08:21] investigated early. Lady Justice Justice Thirlwall was really clear
[00:08:25] clear that that needs to be a board
[00:08:28] board level responsibility. So we we need to be sure that we're not
[00:08:32] not just seeing patterns and taking
[00:08:33] taking note of them, but we're acting
[00:08:36] acting and making change. And I think think for me that that's really important
[00:08:39] important that we're thinking about about that across all units in the
[00:08:43] the UK. We've had several maternity
[00:08:47] maternity investigations recently recently and they've all identified
[00:08:50] identified that whether we're thinking thinking about inadvertent harm or
[00:08:53] or deliberate harm, we should be
[00:08:57] be responding to baby deaths and and making change. And I think you've
[00:09:00] you've talked about, you know, the
[00:09:01] the need for a sort of learning culture
[00:09:05] culture rather than a defensive culture. culture. And has that been the problem
[00:09:08] problem too often that we have seen
[00:09:10] seen senior staff, people who run
[00:09:12] run hospital trusts, simply being
[00:09:15] being too defensive. It was very
[00:09:18] very clear in, in Lady Justice Thirlwall Thirlwall report that there was a
[00:09:22] a defensive culture at a managerial
[00:09:25] managerial level and that prevented
[00:09:27] prevented us from preventing the
[00:09:29] the actions from being put in place.
[00:09:33] place. And we do often have a reflex
[00:09:36] reflex defensive culture when actually actually we need to make a complete
[00:09:39] complete change. For me, this was
[00:09:42] was learning that also came out of of Baroness Amos report that the
[00:09:46] the maternity and neonatal investigation investigation where she was emphasising
[00:09:50] emphasising the need for leadership leadership and that culture is very
[00:09:53] very definitely driven by the leadership.
[00:09:54] leadership. So we need those leaders
[00:09:58] leaders who have that learning culture culture and are trained to respond
[00:10:02] respond in the right way, as opposed
[00:10:05] opposed to the defensive way. We We have, as you yourself mentioned
[00:10:08] mentioned there, we've seen many
[00:10:11] many scandals really involving maternity
[00:10:12] maternity care, neonatal care in,
[00:10:15] in, in England. What has gone wrong?
[00:10:17] wrong? Do you think. So many organisations,
[00:10:24] organisations, including the collaboration collaboration that I lead, have been
[00:10:27] been criticised for producing recommendations recommendations which are not implemented.
[00:10:31] implemented. Some of us have the
[00:10:33] the power to make sure those recommendations recommendations are implemented and
[00:10:36] and that for me is the step that
[00:10:39] that we have to take. We have to
[00:10:41] to make sure that the government,
[00:10:45] government, NHS England, NHS organisations
[00:10:48] organisations are implementing the the recommendations because we don't
[00:10:51] don't need we don't want a continuous
[00:10:54] continuous cycle of more and more more investigations which say the
[00:10:56] the same thing. Can I just ask you
[00:10:59] you about a couple of the specific
[00:11:02] specific recommendations that came
[00:11:03] came out of this inquiry? Reforms
[00:11:06] Reforms to neonatal units, including
[00:11:08] including CCTV for all Cots and incubators,
[00:11:12] incubators, restriction to access access to insulin, for example. On
[00:11:16] On those specifics, what would you
[00:11:17] you say about those? So Lady Justice
[00:11:22] Justice Thirlwall is is picked up
[00:11:24] up on that area as a and as your
[00:11:26] your reporter clearly, clearly emphasised,
[00:11:30] emphasised, there are many potential potential benefits of Cot cams, not
[00:11:33] not least of which parents remain
[00:11:36] remain in contact with their baby baby even when they can't be there
[00:11:40] there in person. For me, the main
[00:11:42] main learning is is about responding
[00:11:45] responding to concerning patterns
[00:11:47] patterns in the data and making sure
[00:11:49] sure that there's accountability accountability at a senior managerial
[00:11:52] managerial level to make sure that that we respond to that. And we've
[00:11:55] we've talked or you've talked there there about what lessons should be
[00:11:58] be learned. Do you think all these
[00:12:00] these lessons will be learned? So
[00:12:03] So I was really pleased that Lady
[00:12:05] Lady Justice Thirlwall had put timelines
[00:12:07] timelines on when those actions need
[00:12:10] need to be undertaken and very short short timelines. So we know that
[00:12:14] that all hospitals have access to
[00:12:16] to the data monitoring, that they they can be using. But we know there's
[00:12:20] there's huge variability. So some
[00:12:23] some hospitals will look at those
[00:12:26] those data every day, others less less than once a month. So and that's
[00:12:30] that's a change we can make quickly. quickly. We can make it now. And
[00:12:34] And that's why I'm really pleased
[00:12:35] pleased that there's a very short
[00:12:38] short timeline on the actions needed. needed. Marian Knight very good to
[00:12:41] to talk to you. Thank you so much much for being with us. Marian Knight
[00:12:43] Knight they're a public health physician physician who as I mentioned at the
[00:12:47] the beginning testified as a key key witness at the inquiry. Thank
[00:12:50] Thank you. Thank you. Now we're going
[00:12:54] going to take a short break. We will will be back in just a moment. So So don't go away.
[00:13:58] Edinburgh expeditions in the Yorkshire Yorkshire Dales to the Scottish Highlands Highlands meeting people proven adventure
[00:14:01] adventure is far from offline. The
[00:14:02] The Travel Show on BBC iPlayer. Now.
[00:14:11] Now. European Union chief Ursula Ursula von der Leyen has condemned
[00:14:15] condemned what she calls Russia's
[00:14:17] Russia's reckless and dangerous behaviour, behaviour, after Denmark said that
[00:14:20] that a Russian frigate fired flares
[00:14:22] flares at a Danish helicopter and
[00:14:25] and Nato had to shoot down a drone
[00:14:28] drone over Lithuania. In a post on
[00:14:30] on X, she said these are not isolated isolated incidents. They're part
[00:14:34] part of a broader pattern of Russian
[00:14:37] Russian aggression and provocation provocation against Europe. Testing
[00:14:39] Testing our readiness and our resolve,
[00:14:41] resolve, Russia will find our resolve resolve only growing stronger. And
[00:14:44] And she went on we are reinforcing
[00:14:48] reinforcing our collective deterrence deterrence and defence together with
[00:14:51] with Nato, and we are stepping up up the pressure on Russia. Well,
[00:14:55] Well, this was the moment that that that drone was brought down by Italian
[00:14:59] Italian Nato fighter jets near the
[00:15:02] the Lithuanian city of Kaunas. The The interception was actually caught
[00:15:05] caught by a residents security camera.
[00:15:07] camera. Let's talk now to Tan Dhesi,
[00:15:10] Dhesi, who's MP for Slough and chair
[00:15:12] chair of the House of Commons Defence Defence Select Committee. Thank you
[00:15:15] you very much for being with us. us. How worried are you that we keep
[00:15:19] keep seeing more and more of these
[00:15:21] these incidents, these kind of cross-border cross-border provocations, if you
[00:15:24] you like. There was the attack on on a train near the Polish border
[00:15:28] border just the other day as well.
[00:15:31] well. Well, Ben, as Kaja Kallas herself herself has said on behalf of the
[00:15:35] the EU that this is part of a predictable,
[00:15:39] predictable, sustained pattern from
[00:15:40] from Russia. We've had not only the
[00:15:45] the Lithuanian airspace incursion incursion and the drone being shot
[00:15:48] shot down by a Nato jet. We've likewise
[00:15:52] likewise had the attack on the train
[00:15:54] train in Ukraine. And thank God that
[00:15:58] that some of the other diplomats diplomats in the including former
[00:16:01] former UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson Johnson and others that their train
[00:16:04] train had actually gone into Poland
[00:16:06] Poland before that. We've had also
[00:16:08] also the attack in Germany, the drone
[00:16:12] drone attack which Germany itself itself has publicly exposed Russian
[00:16:16] Russian involvement in that. And
[00:16:17] And the two individuals one was Belarusian
[00:16:21] Belarusian and the other was linked
[00:16:23] linked to Russian intelligence agencies.
[00:16:26] agencies. Likewise, before we've we've had incursions into Romanian
[00:16:30] Romanian airspace, Polish airspace
[00:16:32] airspace and much more besides. So
[00:16:35] So we need to be absolutely of the
[00:16:39] the opinion that we need to help, help, not just our Ukrainian friends,
[00:16:43] friends, but also to bolster our
[00:16:45] our own Nato defences. Do you think
[00:16:48] think this is Putin in a sense, lashing
[00:16:51] lashing out against Ukraine's European European allies, especially those
[00:16:54] those nearest to Ukraine, saying, saying, you know, don't interfere, interfere, don't interfere in support
[00:16:58] support of Ukraine against Russia? Russia? Well, it's part of Putin's
[00:17:02] Putin's desperate tactics to try
[00:17:04] try to deter and to divide Nato allies.
[00:17:07] allies. All the Western allies. And And it was also good that our UK
[00:17:11] UK Prime Minister came out strongly
[00:17:13] strongly to say that this would not
[00:17:15] not undermine our support for Ukraine.
[00:17:18] Ukraine. And we know that this is
[00:17:20] is meant to undermine our support
[00:17:22] support and unity. And likewise, likewise, I note that Nato Secretary
[00:17:26] Secretary General Mark Rutte made made a similar statement as well.
[00:17:29] well. So we know what the tactics
[00:17:32] tactics from Vladimir Putin are. are. But we need to be steadfast
[00:17:35] steadfast in our support for Ukraine. Ukraine. And in fact, that's what what the House of Commons defence
[00:17:39] defence Committee, in an earlier earlier statement, also asked our
[00:17:42] our government that we must show show leadership in supporting our
[00:17:45] our Ukrainian friends because they they are not only fighting for their
[00:17:49] their homeland, but they are helping
[00:17:52] helping to preserve this. Our security
[00:17:56] security of our continent. So it's it's important that we come to their
[00:17:59] their aid. But at the same time, time, we need to accelerate the investment
[00:18:03] investment into our own defences
[00:18:05] defences to replenish those stockpiles stockpiles and munitions. But some
[00:18:08] some people watching this, I mean, mean, just briefly might be worried
[00:18:12] worried and say, this is actually actually getting really dangerous.
[00:18:14] dangerous. All these sort of incidents, incidents, cross-border incidents
[00:18:18] incidents and so on. You know, it
[00:18:20] it could ignite into a wider war.
[00:18:23] war. Well, look, that's why the likes likes of myself and others on the
[00:18:26] the defence committee as well as as other parliamentarians who are
[00:18:30] are passionate about defence and and national security, who care that
[00:18:33] that our country is kept safe. We've We've been saying for quite some
[00:18:36] some time now that we've got a rising
[00:18:39] rising threat level and we need to to step up to the plate because,
[00:18:42] because, as I said on the floor of of the House, not just to the Prime
[00:18:45] Prime Minister, but we've been saying
[00:18:47] saying this repeatedly since the
[00:18:50] the last couple of years that we've
[00:18:52] we've got a very aggressive imperialist
[00:18:57] imperialist neighbour to the east
[00:18:58] east of Europe, namely Russia and
[00:19:02] and they have got expansionist ambitions. ambitions. But we've also to the
[00:19:06] the west we've got a new US administration
[00:19:10] administration with Donald Trump
[00:19:12] Trump who for whom European security
[00:19:14] security is no longer a focus or
[00:19:17] or a priority. So we as European European nations need to step up
[00:19:20] up to the plate. We need to invest
[00:19:22] invest in our defence and we need
[00:19:25] need to make sure that we deter any
[00:19:28] any aggressive actions. And in fact, fact, the defence committee recently
[00:19:31] recently visited Denmark. We also also went to Greenland as well to
[00:19:35] to look at security within the high high north as part of our inquiry
[00:19:39] inquiry defence in the High north. north. And we saw, for example, our
[00:19:42] our Danish neighbours who have significantly
[00:19:45] significantly ramped up their defence
[00:19:47] defence spending from a mere. It
[00:19:50] It was under 1.5% just four years
[00:19:52] years ago when the full-scale illegal
[00:19:55] illegal invasion of Ukraine was initiated
[00:19:58] initiated by Putin and now they are
[00:20:03] are coming up to 4.99% in terms of
[00:20:06] of defence and defence related expenditure expenditure and likewise other European
[00:20:10] European nations are doing that.
[00:20:11] that. We as the UK do not want to
[00:20:14] to be left behind. We want to make make sure that we have that leadership,
[00:20:18] leadership, not just for our security
[00:20:20] security but our continent security. Tan Dhesi thank you very
[00:20:23] very much indeed. Chair of the House House of Commons Defence Select Committee.
[00:20:26] Committee. Thanks for being with
[00:20:27] with us. Thank you. Well, still on
[00:20:32] on matters of defence for the first
[00:20:34] first time, the United States military military has confirmed that it has
[00:20:38] has deployed weapons in space orbiting
[00:20:40] orbiting the earth. The Chinese Foreign Foreign Ministry has reacted by warning
[00:20:44] warning against what it calls an
[00:20:45] an arms race in space. As Jonathan
[00:20:48] Jonathan Beale now reports. No notice notice launch Iran. The US Space
[00:20:52] Space Force is already helping America
[00:20:53] America fight its wars on the ground ground here, detecting the launch
[00:20:57] launch of ballistic missiles. This
[00:20:59] This is the wolf Den. But it's also
[00:21:02] also preparing for a potential conflict conflict in space. We are already
[00:21:06] already sparring in the cyber domain domain in the space domain. Home
[00:21:09] Home to thousands of active satellites.
[00:21:13] satellites. Now, for the first time, time, the US has confirmed it's deployed
[00:21:16] deployed a weapon in space. The US
[00:21:19] US Air Force secretary said it wanted wanted to maintain its dominance.
[00:21:22] dominance. So we've had to take steps
[00:21:24] steps to make sure that when we're
[00:21:26] we're threatened, we can take care
[00:21:29] care of that. That's prompted both
[00:21:31] both Russia and China to condemn
[00:21:33] condemn the move and warn of an arms
[00:21:35] arms race in space. America's already
[00:21:39] already accused them of doing the
[00:21:40] the same. The reality is there's
[00:21:43] there's already the start of an arms
[00:21:45] arms race in space. The US has accused
[00:21:47] accused both China and Russia of
[00:21:50] of developing satellites that can can jam the signals of other satellites
[00:21:53] satellites or listen in, or deploying
[00:21:56] deploying lasers to blind them. Even
[00:21:59] Even fitting grappling arms to try try to manoeuver other satellites
[00:22:03] satellites out of orbit. The US has
[00:22:04] has also accused both China and Russia
[00:22:07] Russia are developing weapons that
[00:22:09] that can be fired into space or from
[00:22:11] from space to destroy satellites.
[00:22:14] satellites. Three. Two. We have ignition.
[00:22:16] ignition. But for now, the US isn't isn't saying what weapon it's launched
[00:22:20] launched into orbit. What the US
[00:22:23] US is talking about are probably
[00:22:25] probably things like electronic warfare
[00:22:27] warfare or jamming abilities or spoofing spoofing abilities, possibly things
[00:22:31] things like what we call co-orbital co-orbital weapons, which you have
[00:22:34] have another satellite that's orbiting orbiting alongside another satellite
[00:22:37] satellite and could bang into it. It's not just the military that
[00:22:41] that increasingly relies on space.
[00:22:43] space. We all do on satellites for
[00:22:46] for everyday life, from social media media to phone calls and finding
[00:22:49] finding our way about. It's not yet
[00:22:53] yet Star Wars, but an arms race in
[00:22:56] in space should concern us all. Jonathan
[00:22:59] Jonathan Beale, BBC News. Let's discuss
[00:23:00] discuss this now with Michael O'Hanlon,
[00:23:03] O'Hanlon, who's chair in defence defence and strategy and director
[00:23:07] director of research in the Foreign Foreign policy programme at Brookings Brookings Institution. Thank you
[00:23:10] you very much for being with us. us. What do you think? You know,
[00:23:14] know, the American military confirming confirming they have weapons in space.
[00:23:16] space. What do you think they are? are? It's an excellent question.
[00:23:20] question. My best guess would be
[00:23:23] be electronic jamming because that's
[00:23:26] that's something that's fairly easy
[00:23:27] easy to do. You know, we've got a a lot of experience with it. We can
[00:23:31] can probably direct those beams pretty
[00:23:33] pretty well. Another guess would
[00:23:36] would be the ability to just manoeuver manoeuver and get close to something
[00:23:39] something and then blow up. So an
[00:23:41] an explosive with enough fuel for
[00:23:43] for the satellite that it can position position itself in the event of a
[00:23:47] a conflict. Now that sounds maybe maybe less likely because we don't
[00:23:51] don't really like the idea of creating creating debris in space. But if
[00:23:54] if you're postulating that you're you're already in a great power war
[00:23:57] war and China is using spy satellites satellites to identify and target
[00:24:00] target your aircraft carriers, maybe maybe at that point you run the risk
[00:24:04] risk of creating some space debris.
[00:24:06] debris. So that's the second possibility. possibility. I'm a little less inclined
[00:24:09] inclined to think it's a laser because,
[00:24:13] because, you know, that would probably probably require a fair amount of
[00:24:16] of testing. And I don't know how how much serious testing we've done
[00:24:19] done of lasers in space. Someday. Someday. Your colleague mentioned
[00:24:23] mentioned Star Wars and maybe at at some point we start thinking about
[00:24:25] about putting lasers in space to to shoot down ballistic missiles,
[00:24:28] missiles, and then we test them. them. At that point, a laser could
[00:24:32] could be, you know, considered viable viable to destroy a satellite as as well. But at this point, I don't
[00:24:36] don't know that we have enough data data or experience with that. So
[00:24:39] So those are my best guesses as to to where we could be. And why. This
[00:24:43] This is another question. Why would would the American military announce
[00:24:46] announce this at this stage? I mean, mean, surely you would think all
[00:24:49] all of this is very classified. Yeah.
[00:24:52] Yeah. I was a little struck by that.
[00:24:55] that. You know, I've been on policy policy boards where we had clearances clearances and people still wouldn't
[00:24:59] wouldn't tell us what we had in space, space, even though we were cleared
[00:25:02] cleared to know because indeed it it was considered to be so sensitive sensitive that you're only going
[00:25:06] going to tell somebody if they really really need to know, quote unquote.
[00:25:09] unquote. That's an expression, as as you're aware, often used in these
[00:25:12] these kind of circles. But you know, know, on the other hand, the secretary
[00:25:15] secretary didn't say that much and and he said something that's increasingly
[00:25:19] increasingly hinted at in polite polite conversation in unclassified
[00:25:23] unclassified conversation, because, because, you know, we have a Space
[00:25:25] Space Force now and they're called called space Guardians. But some
[00:25:28] some people wanted to call them space
[00:25:30] space warriors. And so there's no no doubt that as part of defending
[00:25:34] defending our own assets in space space and also defending our assets
[00:25:37] assets on the ground that might be be targeted by adversary assets in
[00:25:41] in space. We have been getting we've
[00:25:43] we've been thinking in this direction direction more and more in recent
[00:25:46] recent years. So in that sense, it's it's no huge surprise. OK. And I
[00:25:50] I guess also no huge surprise has has been the reaction from China
[00:25:53] China and Russia both absolutely absolutely condemning this as if
[00:25:57] if they have no interest at all in
[00:25:59] in having weapons in space. Yeah.
[00:26:02] Yeah. Well, we are pretty confident confident that Russia had plans and
[00:26:05] and may even have actualised them them to put nuclear weapons in space.
[00:26:09] space. That would be an actual violation violation of a treaty. The Outer
[00:26:12] Outer Space treaty, putting conventional conventional weapons like jammers
[00:26:15] jammers or even explosives in space space would not be a violation of
[00:26:18] of any treaty. It might seem unseemly
[00:26:20] unseemly to some people or sort of
[00:26:23] of weaponising the last frontier, frontier, but it's not prohibited prohibited by international law.
[00:26:26] law. So the Russians, of course, course, have nothing to fall back back on here. I doubt very much the
[00:26:30] the Chinese have put a nuclear weapon weapon in space, but I think they
[00:26:33] they are investigating the same kinds kinds of technologies that we are
[00:26:36] are for pretty much the same reasons. reasons. Michael, really good to
[00:26:39] to have you with us. Thank you so so much. Michael O'Hanlon there.
[00:26:41] there. We'll take a short break in in a minute. Just a quick bit of
[00:26:44] of breaking news to bring you, which
[00:26:46] which is that several support acts
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[00:26:51] have pulled out. This is in solidarity
[00:26:53] solidarity with the rapper Macklemore Macklemore after he was barred from
[00:26:57] from the forthcoming performances performances for making pro-Palestinian
[00:27:01] pro-Palestinian statements on stage. stage. Billie Eilish's brother Finneas, Finneas, Irish songwriter Aaron
[00:28:35] still in the mid to high 40s by.
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