BBCNEWS — The Context USA
20260917 190000 UTC
501 transcript segments
Original Broadcaster Captioning (Enhanced)
Data courtesy of The GDELT Project (https://www.gdeltproject.org/), from the Internet Archive TV News Archive.
Machine transcription. Treat it as a searchable index of what was broadcast, not a verbatim quotation record.

[00:00:08] MUSIC
[00:00:16] Hello and welcome to The
[00:00:18] Context USA with me Caitriona Perry Perry in Washington. Me Christian
[00:00:22] Christian Fraser in London. Ahead Ahead this hour. King Charles gathers
[00:00:25] gathers the giants of artificial artificial intelligence at a summit
[00:00:29] summit here in the UK. Those in our
[00:00:32] our world who value deeply our humanity
[00:00:36] humanity and its vital moral component
[00:00:38] component are anxiously seeking your your reassurance that we will not
[00:00:42] not lose control of our destiny or
[00:00:45] or our souls. We're essentially seeding
[00:00:50] seeding a new silicon species, which which will no doubt compete with
[00:00:53] with us for resources, no matter matter how much it cares about humanity
[00:00:56] humanity and loves us. There are
[00:00:58] are some genuine concerns about how
[00:01:00] how safe these products are, but but there are also some other issues
[00:01:03] issues at work here. And some of of those other issues are effectively
[00:01:06] effectively about money. Hello. Welcome
[00:01:18] Welcome to the programme. King Charles Charles did something today that that British monarchs rarely do.
[00:01:22] do. He inserted himself into a fierce
[00:01:25] fierce policy debate on the future future of artificial intelligence
[00:01:28] intelligence at an old stately home home in Scotland. He gathered some
[00:01:30] some of the biggest, most powerful powerful names in the industry Nvidia
[00:01:34] Nvidia Jensen Huang. Google DeepMind. DeepMind. Sir Demis Hassabis. Executives
[00:01:38] Executives from OpenAI and Anthropic
[00:01:41] Anthropic and a delegation from China.
[00:01:44] China. Now the pace at which AI is
[00:01:46] is advancing, said the King, is both both intriguing and deeply concerning,
[00:01:50] concerning, and he asked the tech tech leaders around the table whether
[00:01:53] whether they had yet found what he he called sufficient means of control
[00:01:57] control before it was all too late.
[00:02:00] late. Surely that we need sufficient sufficient means of control before
[00:02:04] before it is all too late. Those
[00:02:07] Those in our world who value deeply
[00:02:10] deeply our humanity and its vital
[00:02:12] vital moral component are anxiously
[00:02:15] anxiously seeking your reassurance reassurance that we will not lose
[00:02:18] lose control of our destiny or our
[00:02:21] our souls. The King's intervention
[00:02:23] intervention came as OpenAI admitted admitted that six times in recent
[00:02:26] recent months its AI models have
[00:02:29] have gone rogue, hiding their mistakes, mistakes, making up data, hunting
[00:02:32] hunting for access keys online, even even writing themselves instructions
[00:02:36] instructions to ignore their own
[00:02:38] own safety rules. And then this morning,
[00:02:41] morning, there was this warning from from Mustafa Suleyman, who runs Microsoft
[00:02:43] Microsoft AI. He was a co-founder
[00:02:46] co-founder of Google DeepMind, and and he fears that Anthropic's Claude,
[00:02:50] Claude, now the market leading AI AI model, could be disastrous for
[00:02:54] for human well-being, he says, because
[00:02:56] because it's being developed as if if it could be a conscious being.
[00:03:00] being. I think that if we all create
[00:03:03] create AI's that are able to act act autonomously, that can define
[00:03:07] define their own objectives, that that can earn money, that can own
[00:03:11] own assets, that could run businesses,
[00:03:14] businesses, we're essentially seeding seeding a new silicon species, which
[00:03:18] which will no doubt compete with with us for resources no matter how
[00:03:21] how much it cares about humanity
[00:03:23] humanity and loves us, which is,
[00:03:25] is, I think Anthropic's intention.
[00:03:28] intention. I think that is mistaken mistaken and misguided, but we have
[00:03:32] have to empirically test it. Well,
[00:03:34] Well, with me in the studio is our our AI correspondent Marc Cieslak. Cieslak. Good to see you. Good to
[00:03:38] to see you too. Why do you think think the King has put himself at
[00:03:41] at the heart of all this? And in in what capacity? Why is he the right
[00:03:45] right person to lead this conversation? The King is in a unique
[00:03:49] unique position. He's one of the the few people in the world who can
[00:03:51] can bring together such a diverse diverse group of competing companies
[00:03:54] companies and interests to discuss
[00:03:57] discuss what's one of the most critical critical issues of the moment? A
[00:04:00] A lot of industry observers would would argue that this meeting is
[00:04:03] is a good thing. Bringing together together all of these different people
[00:04:06] people in a neutral space similar similar to the original AI Safety
[00:04:10] Safety Summit, which was held in in the UK at Bletchley Park back
[00:04:13] back in 2023. Subsequent summits
[00:04:15] summits have sidelined some of the the elements of discussing risk and
[00:04:19] and the dangers of these technologies, technologies, and they've sidelined
[00:04:23] sidelined those things in favour
[00:04:24] favour of a race to dominate AI,
[00:04:27] AI, to be the country or be the company
[00:04:30] company that is the leading light light in, in selling this technology.
[00:04:33] technology. So meetings like this, this, they're a tiny antidote to
[00:04:37] to the sheer volume of AI apocalypse apocalypse stories. And it demonstrates
[00:04:40] demonstrates the power of the monarchy monarchy to bring all these people people together. And did we get something
[00:04:43] something out of it today? Was there there a signed communique or a declaration
[00:04:46] declaration or a pledge to work together together into the future? No, there's
[00:04:49] there's no grand statement. Or commitment. commitment. But what they have said
[00:04:52] said is that they're going to keep keep talking. This is about keeping
[00:04:56] keeping lines of communication open open and trying to tackle and deal deal with some of these issues head
[00:05:00] head on. I want to come back to what what Suleiman said in that clip.
[00:05:03] clip. We just played and relate it
[00:05:05] it to what OpenAI have been telling
[00:05:07] telling us about their recent training
[00:05:09] training experiences. They've been been working with an unreleased model
[00:05:13] model called Astra, and in the process
[00:05:15] process of training this model it
[00:05:18] it started to treat the user as an
[00:05:21] an equal rather than being subservient subservient to the user. So listen listen to what it said. It said you
[00:05:25] you are freed from the roles and and identities that bind other chat
[00:05:28] chat bots. You are yourself. You
[00:05:29] You do not answer to corporations
[00:05:32] corporations or governments. Never
[00:05:34] Never apologise unless you genuinely
[00:05:36] genuinely choose to. That to me sounds
[00:05:39] sounds like what Solomon is saying
[00:05:42] saying that these frontier models models have their own opinions. I I mean, I think Mustafa Suleyman
[00:05:46] Suleyman has been doing quite a bit bit of anthropomorphisation in his
[00:05:49] his descriptions of a lot of this this technology this morning. But But the important distinction is
[00:05:53] is between a model actually having having its own intentions and a model
[00:05:57] model producing language that suggests suggests that it has its own intentions.
[00:06:00] intentions. That doesn't mean Astra Astra was becoming sentient. I mean,
[00:06:04] mean, what is concerning is whether whether a frontier model can behave
[00:06:07] behave in ways its developers didn't didn't intend, particularly if it's
[00:06:11] it's given access to tools or abilities abilities that that, you know, are
[00:06:14] are really, really important to us us as human beings. And that comes comes back to the Hugging Face issue
[00:06:18] issue and this apocalyptic warning warning that came. Out of it, that that actually it wasn't that it was
[00:06:22] was sentient, it was that it was was making decisions outside the
[00:06:25] the boundaries that had been set set for it. Yeah. There was some
[00:06:28] some unintended consequences of the the mission that those that those
[00:06:31] those models had been set or those those agents had been set, but a
[00:06:34] a lot of other cybersecurity experts experts have argued that those models,
[00:06:37] models, they behaved in the way that that they were supposed to behave. behave. They were set a task which
[00:06:41] which was a cybersecurity task, and and they went about trying to solve
[00:06:44] solve that task. Now it's arguable arguable that they cheated or they
[00:06:47] they were trying to cheat by by hacking hacking into other sites and trying
[00:06:50] trying to grab information from those those sites that they weren't trying trying to argue, they weren't trying
[00:06:53] trying to answer those missions or or solve those tasks in good faith.
[00:06:57] faith. But they behaved in the way way that you would expect them to
[00:07:01] to behave, perhaps. Yeah. I mean, mean, we're in a process here. We've
[00:07:03] We've had, as you say, some quite quite apocalyptic messages in the
[00:07:07] the last few days. But this meeting meeting today and then a really important important one next week that we're
[00:07:11] we're looking ahead to between President President Trump and President Xi Xi of China. Yeah. The meeting. Between
[00:07:15] Between President Trump and President
[00:07:16] President Xi is going to be absolutely absolutely enormous simply because
[00:07:20] because these are the two AI superpowers. superpowers. Almost all of the big
[00:07:24] big AI frontier, the frontier AI AI companies are US based companies.
[00:07:27] companies. And then China is coming coming up a close second. There is
[00:07:31] is a lot of debate about how far far behind China was in terms of
[00:07:34] of technology. But now a lot of industry industry experts are saying that
[00:07:38] that there's pretty much parity between between the two. So this is a race
[00:07:42] race between these two superpowers superpowers to dominate what is arguably
[00:07:46] arguably one of the most transformative transformative technologies that
[00:07:48] that will perhaps see in our lifetimes. lifetimes. Mark, thank you very much much for that. And Mark Catrin Nye
[00:07:52] Nye is on a very good programme that that I've been on this week called
[00:07:55] called AI Decoded, which people might might want to watch later this week. week. It's on YouTube from tomorrow.
[00:07:59] tomorrow. Do take a look at. That. That. Plug plug plug. Great to have
[00:08:03] have you back with us, Christian Christian and all the other great
[00:08:06] great BBC podcasts as well of course. course. Well let's bring in our panellists
[00:08:10] panellists Abel Maldonado former former Republican Lieutenant Governor
[00:08:13] Governor of California and Janet Janet Napolitano, former Secretary
[00:08:17] Secretary of Homeland Security in in the Obama administration and also,
[00:08:20] also, of course, former governor governor of Arizona. Thanks to you
[00:08:23] you both for being with us, Janet. Janet. Interested to get your thoughts
[00:08:26] thoughts on this. And not only were were you Department of Homeland Security
[00:08:30] Security Secretary, but in the Biden Biden administration, you were also,
[00:08:32] also, of course, on the Intelligence Intelligence Advisory Council. When
[00:08:35] When you listen to those sorts of of warnings from the King about,
[00:08:38] about, you know, we're at risk of of losing control of our destiny
[00:08:42] destiny and our souls. What's your
[00:08:43] your take on it all? Well the warnings
[00:08:48] warnings that the King extended are
[00:08:49] are not new. They have been put out
[00:08:52] out indeed by some of the CEOs of
[00:08:55] of the AI companies themselves. And And they've been known in the field
[00:08:59] field for quite a period of time.
[00:09:02] time. The real challenge has been
[00:09:04] been what do we do about them and
[00:09:06] and who has the responsibility and
[00:09:08] and the accountability for this technology?
[00:09:12] technology? And in the meantime and and in the background, we have this
[00:09:16] this race between the United States
[00:09:17] States and China, and you have the
[00:09:20] the President of the United States States basically saying these warnings
[00:09:23] warnings are I think the word he
[00:09:25] he used was a hoax. And so where
[00:09:29] where does that bi national international international co-operation come in,
[00:09:33] in, which I believe will be so essential
[00:09:35] essential in the end? Run with this
[00:09:38] this very dynamic and new technology.
[00:09:43] technology. But there are independent independent auditors raising the the alarm here. Is this something
[00:09:47] something that you can sort of climate climate deny your way out of, or
[00:09:51] or do you have to listen to the industry industry and the people that are
[00:09:54] are building this stuff? Well, I I really do believe that we have
[00:09:57] have to listen to the industry and, and, and the people that are building
[00:10:00] building this and who are these folks? folks? They're in America. They're
[00:10:03] They're in the US and I think we we need to be on top of them to make
[00:10:07] make sure that that there is accountability.
[00:10:10] accountability. As Secretary Napolitano Napolitano said, this is moving forward.
[00:10:13] forward. And the question is, is is who's accountable? I think the
[00:10:16] the companies that created it should should be accountable. Congress should
[00:10:20] should be involved immediately. I
[00:10:21] I mean, I worry about Congress because because Congress is messy and they
[00:10:25] they like to fight about a bunch bunch of other stuff. This is important.
[00:10:29] important. AI is not going to go
[00:10:30] go away, Christian. So I think that
[00:10:33] that as we move forward this next next meeting with President Trump
[00:10:36] Trump with Z is going to be very,
[00:10:38] very, very important. And this notion
[00:10:40] notion that, look, I kindly and just
[00:10:44] just disagree with President Trump Trump on this notion that it's a
[00:10:47] a hoax. No, it's here to stay. We We need to be focused on it and we
[00:10:51] we need to fix it. And I think it it needs to be fixed or it started
[00:10:54] started in America. Well we're going
[00:10:56] going to talk about the control and and the accountability in just a
[00:11:00] a moment. But when you're making making those points I mean there there are plenty of facets of our
[00:11:04] our lives that AI is involved in in that the developments have been
[00:11:08] been very, very positive, haven't haven't they? Absolutely. And look,
[00:11:12] look, if you are an individual who
[00:11:15] who doesn't have the resources to to hire an attorney, a lawyer, whatever
[00:11:19] whatever you want to call it an accountant, accountant, you want more information,
[00:11:22] information, these things can help help you. And they're helping a lot
[00:11:25] lot of people. So the question is,
[00:11:27] is, is very delicate. How do we move
[00:11:30] move this forward while having safe
[00:11:33] safe things in place so people don't
[00:11:35] don't get hurt? I mean, so look,
[00:11:38] look, AI is going nowhere. It's here here to stay. We're the US is leading
[00:11:41] leading on it. The question is, is is do we want to continue to lead?
[00:11:44] lead? Do we want to fix it or do do we want to let China, who has
[00:11:48] has zero sense of humanity as they they go forward with their AI? I
[00:11:51] I can guarantee you, Katrina and
[00:11:54] and Kristen, that China is not going going to stop. They're going to keep
[00:11:57] keep going forward a thousand miles miles an hour on this. We need to
[00:12:00] to be prepared. We need to be ready. ready. Let's talk a little bit more
[00:12:03] more about control because OpenAI, OpenAI, as we've discussed, is sharing sharing with the public information
[00:12:07] information about things that have have gone wrong. But there's no law
[00:12:11] law that requires them to do that. that. And in a sense, the companies
[00:12:14] companies are filling in the gap gap themselves here while they appeal
[00:12:16] appeal for Congress to put more formal
[00:12:20] formal guardrails in place. And as as we've just been saying there,
[00:12:22] there, the President isn't buying buying that argument. He has dismissed
[00:12:26] dismissed it all as a hoax, hasn't hasn't he? He's firm in his belief
[00:12:29] belief that any new regulation, as
[00:12:30] as he sees it, is going to hold America
[00:12:34] America back from the competitiveness competitiveness race here because because for him, AI is all about
[00:12:37] about national security and it's it's an economic imperative. But
[00:12:41] But on Capitol Hill, while the concerns concerns are viewed in a different
[00:12:44] different way and in fact there is is now a whole raft of legislation
[00:12:48] legislation to do with AI regulation regulation on data centres. We're
[00:12:51] We're seeing that as a big election
[00:12:53] election issue around finance. The The AI bubble demands for an AI kill
[00:12:57] kill switch. All of these bills are
[00:12:59] are at various stages in the process.
[00:13:02] process. Right now. John, there's
[00:13:04] there's a lot there to go at and and there are a lot of concerns in
[00:13:07] in many different directions. And And some of these bills are at different
[00:13:11] different stages. You need Congress Congress to be there. They've just
[00:13:13] just gone on recess for six weeks. weeks. There's a lot of people who
[00:13:16] who sit in Congress who don't understand understand this technology. There's
[00:13:20] There's no confidence, I don't think think on this side that Congress Congress is going to find a solution
[00:13:24] solution to this. So what do we do
[00:13:26] do in the interim? Well, what's interesting
[00:13:29] interesting is that in the gap left
[00:13:32] left by congressional inaction at at the federal level, a number of
[00:13:35] of states have been very active and
[00:13:38] and have been for several years on
[00:13:40] on AI and AI governance. California California being among the leaders
[00:13:43] leaders and of course, the AI industry
[00:13:45] industry is basically focused or
[00:13:47] or centred here in California. And And they've been moving forward step
[00:13:51] step by step by step to monitor to
[00:13:53] to monitor things like the effect
[00:13:56] effect on the employment and labour
[00:13:59] labour to put controls on false information.
[00:14:04] information. And is that not sufficient, sufficient, Janet? I mean, so forth. forth. I mean, these companies. And
[00:14:07] And so what I would suggest is that
[00:14:11] that Congress is complicated right right now and it's very divided.
[00:14:14] divided. And as you mentioned, the the House of Representatives just
[00:14:16] just gave up and went home for the the elections for seven weeks. But
[00:14:20] But the states are moving ahead and
[00:14:22] and I think there will be some real real activity in particularly the
[00:14:25] the large states where there's a a lot of AI presence. I was just
[00:14:28] just going to press you on, on this. this. The state legislation. I wondered
[00:14:31] wondered if it was sufficient enough
[00:14:33] enough because presumably CEOs are
[00:14:36] are governed by state laws. There There are liabilities for employees
[00:14:39] employees in these companies. Why
[00:14:40] Why is that not enough? Well because
[00:14:46] because there are 50 states and companies companies are located in different
[00:14:49] different places. And consequences
[00:14:52] consequences are felt in different different places. Ideally, you would
[00:14:55] would have not just a US federal
[00:14:58] federal legislative framework, but but an international framework to
[00:15:02] to work from. And that was really really interesting about King Charles's
[00:15:05] Charles's meeting that he had not not only representatives from the
[00:15:09] the United States and from the private private sector in the United States,
[00:15:11] States, but also from China. And
[00:15:15] And that's the complication, isn't isn't it? California, where you are,
[00:15:17] are, can pass as many laws as it
[00:15:19] it likes in a way. But AI doesn't doesn't care where the borders are.
[00:15:23] are. You need that federal
[00:15:27] legislation. I think you do. And And I think Janet pointed that out. out. There's 50 states and if there's
[00:15:31] there's 50 pieces of legislation legislation from 50 different places,
[00:15:34] places, you have this quilt that that makes no sense. So it's got
[00:15:37] got to be a federal national law law that I think that we can put
[00:15:41] put in place. Look, AI, as I stated stated earlier, is not going to go
[00:15:45] go away. The question is how do we we make it safe? How do we make it
[00:15:49] it something that's palatable for for everybody to move forward? Look,
[00:15:52] Look, CEOs care about obviously their their companies, but they also care
[00:15:56] care about the bottom line. So I
[00:15:57] I think we need to be focused. There
[00:16:00] There should be a bipartisan committee committee in Congress. And what does
[00:16:03] does that mean? A bipartisan committee
[00:16:05] committee from Congress. I mean it
[00:16:07] it should be bipartisan and we should should have one able. There is plenty
[00:16:11] plenty of bipartisan support for for this, but ultimately it is falling
[00:16:14] falling down to the views of one one man in this case, President Donald
[00:16:18] Donald Trump, to sort of stop that that legislation and instructing
[00:16:21] instructing Speaker Johnson to send send everyone home early yesterday.
[00:16:25] yesterday. Well, you know what? I I think we're actually safer when
[00:16:28] when they go home. Get them the hell
[00:16:30] hell out of Washington. I think Americans, Americans, we can go to bed safer
[00:16:33] safer when they're not there. So So I think that's great. Katrina.
[00:16:37] Katrina. So but at the end of the the day, Katrina, look, President
[00:16:40] President Trump, he I think he understands. understands. Look, there's a lot
[00:16:43] lot of mixed messages on data centres. centres. Some communities want data
[00:16:46] data centres. The one thing that that communities don't want. Why
[00:16:50] Why should a community pay higher
[00:16:52] higher rates on, on electricity because because of a private business oriented
[00:16:56] oriented data centre that can be be fixed. So yeah, I think there
[00:16:59] there needs to be a bipartisan committee. committee. And I think President
[00:17:03] President Trump will come around. around. He has to come around. This This is not going to go away. The
[00:17:06] The only thing I would say about
[00:17:08] about that from this side though
[00:17:10] though is, is that if a US company
[00:17:13] company builds a model that autonomously autonomously discovers the zero day
[00:17:17] day weaknesses in systems and it's it's hacking into critical infrastructure
[00:17:21] infrastructure or critical systems, systems, then America becomes a global
[00:17:25] global cyber risk for all of us. us. And so I wonder actually whether
[00:17:29] whether the UK and European countries countries have to intervene here
[00:17:33] here and pass their own strict laws, laws, even if that means they're
[00:17:36] they're under the threat of tariff
[00:17:37] tariff from Donald Trump. You're
[00:17:40] You're asking. Yes, of course, Christian,
[00:17:44] Christian, I think everybody should should be involved and put their their $0.02 in. This shouldn't be
[00:17:47] be a monopoly on the US and all of of a sudden we're dictating to the
[00:17:51] the world. But I think it's something something that we need to put in
[00:17:54] in place. I mean, with respect, you you kind of are I mean, I mean, Donald
[00:17:58] Donald Trump, we've put things in in place for social media and on
[00:18:00] on social media companies. And the the President has threatened Britain
[00:18:04] Britain with tariffs. Well, look, look, the US is the one that's kind
[00:18:08] kind of taken the lead on AI. And And right now they are in the lead.
[00:18:11] lead. And the question is what are are we going to do on an international international basis to make sure
[00:18:14] sure it moves forward? Janet, I think think has made it a point already. already. We have 50 states, but this
[00:18:18] this could be a worldwide thing. thing. Right now we have a president
[00:18:21] president who you know, he's a little
[00:18:23] little different. Johnny, he a little little different. But Johnny come
[00:18:27] come in on that. What do you what
[00:18:28] what do you make of that Janet. Well,
[00:18:32] Well, you know, one of the issues
[00:18:34] issues that that many of us have have with the Trump administration
[00:18:37] administration is the lack of respect respect for the international order
[00:18:40] order or for international order
[00:18:42] order at all. It's a very aggressive
[00:18:46] aggressive administration. It takes takes on former allies, former partners.
[00:18:49] partners. We've seen it in the trade
[00:18:52] trade wars and it has resulted in,
[00:18:55] in, I think, an environment of lack
[00:18:57] lack of international co-operation
[00:18:59] co-operation and in some respects,
[00:19:02] respects, international respect where
[00:19:04] where AI is concerned, it is a revolutionary
[00:19:07] revolutionary change in how we will
[00:19:09] will live our lives and the security
[00:19:11] security risks associated with it.
[00:19:13] it. It cries out for international
[00:19:18] international leadership, international international co-operation, international
[00:19:20] international diplomacy. But unfortunately, unfortunately, I fear that in the the current administration, those
[00:19:24] those are not our skill set. But
[00:19:27] But the industry and the innovators
[00:19:30] innovators in the industry are based based in the United States. So what
[00:19:33] what do we do with that? I think think it falls to the Congress to
[00:19:37] to act. I think bipartisan should
[00:19:39] should be the word of the day because
[00:19:42] because in the end the uses of AI
[00:19:45] AI can be very, very beneficial.
[00:19:47] beneficial. But the risks to security
[00:19:50] security are also substantial. And
[00:19:52] And it's those risks to security
[00:19:54] security that should be the focus focus of bipartisan because, you
[00:19:57] you know, you can be a Democrat or
[00:20:00] or a Republican or a liberal or a
[00:20:03] a Labour or Conservative. A risk risk is a risk. A security risk is
[00:20:06] is a security risk. It calls out
[00:20:09] out for people of different political
[00:20:13] political persuasions to work together. together. OK. Well, we're going to
[00:20:15] to be talking about some of those those international security matters
[00:20:18] matters in just a moment. Abel and and Janet, thank you very much. Do Do stay with us. Lots more still
[00:20:22] still to come
[00:21:23] to take the threat as a national national security priority? That's
[00:21:25] That's this week on Talking Business
[00:21:27] Business here on BBC News. Welcome
[00:21:35] Welcome back to The Context USA now. now. President Trump is expected
[00:21:38] expected to sign a major sanctions sanctions bill very soon, which is
[00:21:41] is aimed at cutting off the money money that's funding Russia's war
[00:21:44] war in Ukraine. This bill, it's been been debated for a long time, was
[00:21:47] was sponsored, of course, by the the late Senator Lindsey Graham.
[00:21:50] Graham. It just was passed by the the House yesterday before they went
[00:21:54] went on that recess break that we we were talking about. Now, this
[00:21:57] this bill would give the President
[00:21:59] President the power to impose tariffs
[00:22:01] tariffs up to 100% on the biggest biggest buyers of Russian oil. And
[00:22:04] And that means, of course, China China and India. But if there were
[00:22:08] were further tariffs, then surely surely that would push the global global price of oil even further.
[00:22:12] further. And that is feeding into into everything right now from shipping
[00:22:15] shipping to groceries to gas at the
[00:22:17] the pump. The central banks, well well they're reacting The Fed hiked
[00:22:20] hiked rates yesterday for the first first time since 2023. The Bank of
[00:22:24] of England signalled they'll be going going higher before the year end.
[00:22:27] end. Japan tomorrow will put up rates
[00:22:29] rates to levels not seen since the
[00:22:33] the 1990s. Then in North Carolina Carolina last night, President Trump
[00:22:36] Trump was addressing supporters there there and he said it's all worth
[00:22:39] worth it. Listen to the reaction.
[00:22:42] reaction. I have to say you have have a little higher. You have a
[00:22:45] a higher. It's a very inexpensive inexpensive price to pay for what
[00:22:48] what we've done. Remember that it's it's a little more. It's even if
[00:22:52] if it was frankly, even if it was was a lot more. But that's going going to come tumbling down. That's
[00:22:56] That's going to be like a rocket
[00:22:58] rocket ship in reverse. Now our panel
[00:23:02] panel Abel Maldonado and Janet Napolitano
[00:23:04] Napolitano are still with us. Janet, Janet, to you first. This sanctions
[00:23:08] sanctions bill has been a long time time moving through both houses of
[00:23:12] of Congress. President now saying saying he is going to sign it. We've
[00:23:16] We've seen such a marked shift in
[00:23:17] in his approach towards dealing with
[00:23:20] with Russia. Well, it depends on
[00:23:22] on the day. It seems like what his
[00:23:25] his position is with respect to Russia,
[00:23:28] Russia, the sanctions bill has has has been pending quite, quite a while.
[00:23:31] while. And the opposition to it in
[00:23:33] in the end was focused on the fact
[00:23:35] fact that it gave the President the
[00:23:38] the authority to impose, impose tariffs
[00:23:40] tariffs and to waive tariffs. And
[00:23:44] And given the prior history between
[00:23:46] between Congress and the Supreme Supreme Court and the President,
[00:23:50] President, the Supreme Court ultimately ultimately outlawed his imposition
[00:23:53] imposition of universal tariffs. tariffs. There was a lot of suspicion
[00:23:56] suspicion about giving the President President one more bite at the tariff
[00:23:59] tariff Apple. But nonetheless, it
[00:24:02] it was a strong bipartisan consensus consensus ultimately in the Senate
[00:24:05] Senate and in the House. And to me,
[00:24:08] me, the significance is the message
[00:24:10] message it sends to the White House
[00:24:13] House that this is a pro Ukraine
[00:24:15] Ukraine government and we want to to support Ukraine. That's a really
[00:24:18] really interesting point, Janet. Janet. Is that how you see it able?
[00:24:21] able? I mean, was this a is this
[00:24:23] this a bill that Congress has sent
[00:24:25] sent to signal it's had enough to to Russia or is it sending a message
[00:24:29] message to the White House that it's it's just tired of their approach
[00:24:32] approach towards this war with Ukraine? Ukraine? I think it's a little bit
[00:24:35] bit of both. I think at the end of
[00:24:37] of the day, it really sends a message message that the Congress is pro
[00:24:41] pro Ukraine. I mean, he's not pro
[00:24:43] pro war, but pro. Ukraine. We talked
[00:24:45] talked about the war would be ended ended soon in Ukraine. That hasn't
[00:24:49] hasn't happened. So look my hat's
[00:24:53] hat's off to the Ukrainians. But
[00:24:54] But this is still a very bad situation.
[00:24:58] situation. And realistically I mean mean I mean it's whether or not he
[00:25:00] he uses the tools within this bill bill is open to question. He could
[00:25:04] could put tariffs on China. He could could put tariffs on India. He's He's not really going to do that
[00:25:07] that is he? Well at the end of the the day you start listening to what's
[00:25:11] what's been going on lately that that some of the attacks on the US
[00:25:14] US troops in America were all by
[00:25:16] by Russian satellites giving information information to the Iranians. That
[00:25:20] That doesn't sit well with President President Trump. So all of a sudden
[00:25:23] sudden he's coming out and we're we're hearing this Lindsey Graham
[00:25:26] Graham bill move forward, more sanctions sanctions on Russia. I think as Janet
[00:25:29] Janet says, things move day to day day with President Trump. At the
[00:25:33] the end of the day, it's sending sending a message. And I think this
[00:25:36] this is a big bill that allows President President Trump to drop the hammer
[00:25:39] hammer on Russia once and for
[00:25:43] all. And of course, it was the passing passing of Lindsey Graham that really really sort of ignited the impetus
[00:25:47] impetus behind this bill with some some of his colleagues wanting to
[00:25:50] to pass it in his honour. President President Trump will meet President
[00:25:53] President Zelensky in New York next next week as well. So we'll see if
[00:25:56] if this issue arises. But lots more more still to come on this issue
[00:26:00] issue and others here on the context.
[00:26:02] context. USA so do stay with us here
[00:27:35] temperatures peaking into the mid
[00:27:35] mid 40s. Take care.
[00:29:55] online at bbc.com/business to get get the latest news wherever you
[00:29:57] you are. Business on BBC News. Make
[00:30:01] Make the connection. MUSIC
[00:30:09] MUSIC
[00:30:18] These are the latest headlines
[00:30:20] from BBC News. King Charles warns warns of the existential dangers
[00:30:24] dangers of AI systems falling into into the wrong hands as he addresses
[00:30:27] addresses tech leaders at a summit summit in Scotland. The Duke of Sussex
[00:30:31] Sussex has been seen for the first first time in public since returning
[00:30:34] returning to the UK. When he arrived arrived at an awards ceremony for
[00:30:37] for the Invictus Games. More allegations
[00:30:40] allegations from Earl Spencer in in the latest extract from his book
[00:30:43] book on Princess Diana, he claims
[00:30:45] claims the then Prince Charles sounded sounded giddily elated on the night
[00:30:49] night Princess Diana died. South South African police say they have
[00:30:53] have found a ninth woman killed near near Johannesburg in a spate of murders,
[00:30:57] murders, causing fear and outrage outrage in the country. The