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20260917 200000 UTC
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[00:00:08] MUSIC
[00:00:16] Hello, I'm Christian Fraser.
[00:00:17] This is The Context on BBC News.
[00:00:20] News. The headlines King Charles Charles warns of the existential
[00:00:24] existential dangers of AI systems systems falling into the wrong hands
[00:00:27] hands as he gathers the giants of of artificial intelligence at a summit
[00:00:31] summit in Scotland. Those in our
[00:00:34] our world who value deeply our humanity
[00:00:37] humanity and its vital moral component
[00:00:39] component are anxiously seeking your
[00:00:42] your reassurance that we will not
[00:00:43] not lose control of our destiny or
[00:00:47] or our souls. The head of Nato tells
[00:00:49] tells the BBC. There has to be a
[00:00:51] a credible path towards the UK meeting
[00:00:54] meeting targets to increase defence defence spending and the United Nations
[00:00:58] Nations warns of a serious decline decline in the amount of fresh water
[00:01:01] water stored on the Earth's surface.
[00:01:02] surface. We'll consider the consequences.
[00:01:14] consequences. Hello. Good evening. evening. Welcome to the programme.
[00:01:16] programme. King Charles has warned warned of the existential dangers
[00:01:20] dangers posed by artificial intelligence. intelligence. He made the comments
[00:01:23] comments at a summit he convened convened in Ayrshire, Scotland, bringing
[00:01:26] bringing together representatives representatives from the AI giants
[00:01:29] giants Nvidia, OpenAI, Google, DeepMind DeepMind and Anthropic. It follows
[00:01:32] follows a series of warnings about
[00:01:34] about the risks posed by two humanity
[00:01:37] humanity by AI and the need for regulation.
[00:01:39] regulation. President Trump this this week dismissed fears about the
[00:01:42] the safety of AI as a hoax and criticised
[00:01:45] criticised calls for more guardrails guardrails in place for the technology.
[00:01:48] technology. Our correspondent Shiona
[00:01:50] Shiona McCallum has our top story.
[00:01:54] story. Not just another royal engagement engagement for the King. He was hosting
[00:01:58] hosting Jensen Huang, the boss of of one of the world's most valuable
[00:02:02] valuable companies in Nvidia and and Sir Demis Hassabis, the co-founder
[00:02:06] co-founder of Google DeepMind, along along with some of the world's most
[00:02:08] most influential voices on AI. And
[00:02:11] And as soon as pleasantries were were over, it was a stark warning.
[00:02:14] warning. There seems urgency in adequately
[00:02:19] adequately considering the existential existential dangers of such technologies
[00:02:23] technologies falling into the wrong wrong hands. The King addressed an
[00:02:26] an audience that included Tino Cuellar Cuellar from Anthropic, Sarah Friar
[00:02:30] Friar from OpenAI and Professor Chu
[00:02:33] Chu Lang from the Shanghai University University in China. A Chinese presence
[00:02:36] presence in the room is significant, significant, too, with President
[00:02:39] President Trump framing AI as a race.
[00:02:41] race. America must win. The summit summit has been in the royal diary
[00:02:44] diary for six months, but the timing timing of it has become part of the
[00:02:48] the story. Last week, a former Anthropic Anthropic researcher said some of
[00:02:52] of the people building AI believe believe that it could kill us all
[00:02:55] all by the end of the decade. The
[00:02:57] The King has asked you here to give
[00:03:00] give reassurances that this technology technology will not harm humanity.
[00:03:02] humanity. Can you give those reassurances?
[00:03:06] reassurances? It is the responsibility responsibility of the AI companies
[00:03:10] companies ourselves to develop the the technology safely and to properly
[00:03:14] properly test it. That as we move
[00:03:15] move from labs to product development,
[00:03:18] development, the companies have to
[00:03:20] to become much more rigorous in testing.
[00:03:23] testing. But other chief execs are
[00:03:25] are less optimistic. I think that
[00:03:27] that if we all create AI that are
[00:03:30] are able to act autonomously, that
[00:03:32] that can define their own objectives,
[00:03:34] objectives, that can earn money, money, that can own assets, that
[00:03:37] that could run businesses, we're
[00:03:40] we're essentially ceding a new silicon silicon species, which will no doubt
[00:03:44] doubt compete with us for resources, resources, no matter how much it
[00:03:48] it cares about humanity and loves loves us. Beyond the garden, the
[00:03:51] the public's feelings about AI are are equally as mixed. I do think
[00:03:55] think it is scary if you think about about it too much, so it's better
[00:03:58] better just to stay in the present. I think there's a lot of of fear mongering as well with it,
[00:04:01] it, but I do think it's going to to take a lot of jobs. And the debate
[00:04:04] debate is not only about safety and
[00:04:06] and jobs. The data centres powering
[00:04:09] powering AI require enormous amounts
[00:04:11] amounts of electricity and water, water, placing the tech's environmental
[00:04:14] environmental issues at the heart heart of a cause that King Charles
[00:04:17] Charles has championed for decades.
[00:04:20] decades. The King cannot regulate regulate artificial intelligence, intelligence, but what he can do
[00:04:24] do is use his convening power to to get these rivals round the table.
[00:04:28] table. The question is will anything anything concrete be produced from
[00:04:32] from these private discussions beyond
[00:04:33] beyond what happens in Dumfries House
[00:04:36] House Shiona McCallum BBC News. Gina
[00:04:39] Gina Neff is the deputy CEO of responsible responsible AI UK and she runs the
[00:04:43] the Minderoo Centre for Technology Technology and Democracy at the University
[00:04:47] University of Cambridge. Welcome Welcome to the programme. Let's set set the context here because we have
[00:04:50] have a president who has established established this as an existential
[00:04:53] existential risk to national security. security. We have a leading figure figure there in Jensen Huang who
[00:04:57] who says we need much more rigorous rigorous testing on frontier models.
[00:05:01] models. Who wins the argument? Well,
[00:05:04] Well, right now the industry is winning winning the argument. They're saying,
[00:05:07] saying, trust us, we're the ones
[00:05:10] ones who can do this testing in-house. in-house. All of the fears that have
[00:05:14] have bubbled up to the surface over
[00:05:15] over the last week and months have
[00:05:18] have been answered with an industry
[00:05:21] industry by calls for we can do this this as long as we have people sitting
[00:05:24] sitting alongside us to help evaluate
[00:05:26] evaluate these models. I think we
[00:05:29] we are at a stage where there need
[00:05:32] need to be stronger conversations conversations among all of us on
[00:05:35] on what we're going to do to regulate regulate these technologies and the
[00:05:39] the companies that make them. Can
[00:05:41] Can you, though, as a CEO answerable
[00:05:45] answerable to shareholders, slow slow down frontier AI development
[00:05:48] development if a competitor is racing
[00:05:50] racing ahead? Well, right now this
[00:05:52] this has been posited as a race and
[00:05:54] and a race that it's between the
[00:05:57] the US and China, evidently with
[00:05:59] with no room for anyone else in the the world and a race about a set
[00:06:02] set of values that we either speed speed up or completely slow down
[00:06:06] down with nothing in between. I think
[00:06:08] think a race to the bottom is not
[00:06:11] not the right way. We should be sending
[00:06:14] sending these messages around AI.
[00:06:16] AI. There are other alternatives
[00:06:19] alternatives we can have shared best best practices across the industry.
[00:06:22] industry. We can have products that that are safe for our children, for
[00:06:25] for our families, for our society.
[00:06:28] society. It would be like imagine imagine that we would have products
[00:06:31] products in any other category from
[00:06:35] from pharmaceuticals to automobiles, automobiles, where the industry simply
[00:06:37] simply said, trust us, we can regulate regulate ourselves. We need no safety
[00:06:41] safety controls from anyone else. else. So do you think we're going
[00:06:44] going beyond that? Because I mean, mean, there's a feeling within the the industry that they want to mark
[00:06:48] mark their own homework. And one. one. Thing. Mark, but one thing that
[00:06:52] that Dario Amodei has put forward
[00:06:53] forward is that they would have independent
[00:06:57] independent inspectors in the training training sessions for these frontier
[00:06:59] frontier models. They would have
[00:07:02] have open access to all the models.
[00:07:05] models. They wouldn't be restricted. restricted. Can you really see the
[00:07:07] the industry agreeing to that? Well,
[00:07:10] Well, he's actually saying it should should be in the company's own remit
[00:07:14] remit to invite those independent independent investigators in that
[00:07:17] that they would have no legal oversight, oversight, that they would have that
[00:07:20] that and that these would be voluntary voluntary measures. And he's called
[00:07:23] called on other companies to do these these voluntary measures. So, yes,
[00:07:27] yes, they're asking to mark their
[00:07:28] their own homework and they're asking
[00:07:31] asking to, you know, to trust that that they're building AI that is
[00:07:35] is in benefit for all of us. Listen Listen 85. We did a piece of survey
[00:07:38] survey research in the UK and my
[00:07:41] my research centre and 85% of British
[00:07:44] British public surveyed said they they want stronger government action
[00:07:47] action here, that they don't trust trust the companies alone. 70% say
[00:07:51] say they're really worried about about the direction of AI. And I
[00:07:54] I think we've got a moment and an an opportunity here where we can
[00:07:58] can start to guarantee some kind kind of flaws and safeguards, some
[00:08:02] some real red lines that we don't don't want this technology to do, do, but we're not going to get there
[00:08:06] there if we just listen to industry. industry. Gina, good to talk to you. you. Thank you for coming on the
[00:08:09] the programme. Thank you. Well away
[00:08:11] away from the King's meeting in Ayrshire, Ayrshire, there were more deeply
[00:08:15] deeply personal claims made about about him today, due to be published
[00:08:18] published tomorrow in the British British newspapers. Extracts from
[00:08:19] from a new book written by Earl Spencer,
[00:08:22] Spencer, the brother of Diana, Princess Princess of Wales. The earl says
[00:08:25] says that on the night Diana died, died, the then princess, the then
[00:08:29] then Prince Charles, I should say,
[00:08:31] say, sounded giddily elated, like like a lottery winner. Buckingham
[00:08:34] Buckingham Palace said yesterday. yesterday. The King was mindful that
[00:08:37] that the pain of fraternal grief
[00:08:39] grief can cloud reason. Daniela Relph
[00:08:41] Relph reports. The King and his former
[00:08:44] former brother in law, another royal royal drama playing out in public.
[00:08:48] public. It's the content of Earl Earl Spencer's new book about his
[00:08:51] his sister that has so angered Buckingham Buckingham Palace. In the book, Earl
[00:08:55] Earl Spencer recounts a row with with the King in the days after the
[00:08:59] the death of Princess Diana in 1997
[00:09:02] 1997 over the decision to have Princes Princes William and Harry walking
[00:09:05] walking behind their mother's coffin.
[00:09:06] coffin. Earl Spencer writes he Charles
[00:09:10] Charles unleashed down the phone phone what I've always taken to be
[00:09:13] be his pent up contempt for Diana
[00:09:16] Diana and his horror that the world world was so bowled over by her death.
[00:09:20] death. Rest assured, he hissed. We'll
[00:09:22] We'll forget her soon enough. It
[00:09:26] It is an incendiary allegation and and the palace has pushed back hard,
[00:09:29] hard, saying that a brother's grief grief can cloud reason, affect judgement
[00:09:33] judgement and colour memory. You've You've got this extraordinary, well
[00:09:36] well protected, very rich royal family family and you've got the likes bizarrely
[00:09:39] bizarrely of Charles Spencer feeling feeling like the underprivileged
[00:09:43] underprivileged one weaponising and and monetising his sister's legacy
[00:09:46] legacy and casting himself very much
[00:09:48] much against the House of Windsor.
[00:09:50] Windsor. The Earl Spencer. The relationship relationship between the Royal family
[00:09:54] family and the Spencers has never never really recovered since the
[00:09:56] the funeral of Princess Diana. In
[00:09:58] In his eulogy to his sister, Earl Earl Spencer was openly critical
[00:10:02] critical of the royals. It caused caused lasting damage. On behalf
[00:10:06] behalf of your mother and sisters, sisters, I pledge that we, your blood
[00:10:09] blood family, will do all we can can to continue the imaginative and
[00:10:13] and loving way in which you were were steering these two exceptional
[00:10:16] exceptional young men so that their their souls are not simply immersed
[00:10:20] immersed by duty and tradition, but
[00:10:22] but can sing openly as you planned.
[00:10:26] planned. Of all senior royals, it it is Prince Harry who has the closest
[00:10:30] closest relationship with his uncle uncle Earl Spencer. The warmth on
[00:10:33] on show two years ago at a service
[00:10:35] service at St Paul's Cathedral and
[00:10:38] and recent social media posts show show Harry, Meghan and their children
[00:10:41] children at the Spencer Family Estate Estate at Althorp in Northamptonshire,
[00:10:44] Northamptonshire, where they stayed stayed over the summer holiday tonight,
[00:10:47] tonight, the Daily Mail has published published further extracts from Earl
[00:10:50] Earl Spencer's book, including an an account of a phone call he had
[00:10:53] had with the King in the hours after after Diana's death. Earl Spencer
[00:10:56] Spencer writes unlike my other callers callers who were stunned, barely
[00:10:59] barely able to articulate their condolences condolences and offers of help, he
[00:11:03] he sounded giddily elated like a
[00:11:05] a lottery winner. I remember thinking
[00:11:07] thinking at the time, the book is
[00:11:09] is a direct personal criticism of
[00:11:12] of the King from Buckingham Palace. Palace. There has been no further
[00:11:15] further response. Well, Prince Harry Harry and his wife Meghan have kept
[00:11:19] kept a low profile since returning returning to the UK from California
[00:11:23] California three weeks ago. But the the Duke of Sussex today made his
[00:11:25] his first public appearances. Speaking
[00:11:27] Speaking at a charity event and attending attending an awards ceremony in London
[00:11:31] London this evening linked to his
[00:11:34] his Invictus Games, Meghan is understood understood to have stayed at home
[00:11:36] home with their two children. Our Our royal correspondent Noor Nanji
[00:11:40] Nanji was in Greenwich as Prince Prince Harry arrived to a barrage
[00:11:43] barrage of reporters questions about
[00:11:44] about his uncle's book. Even here,
[00:11:47] here, there's no escaping the Earl Earl Spencer revelations. As Prince
[00:11:50] Prince Harry arrived, a journalist journalist did ask him what he made
[00:11:54] made of his uncle's book. It may may not surprise you that he didn't
[00:11:57] didn't answer that he walked straight straight into the venue. But you
[00:12:00] you know, tonight for Prince Harry Harry is really something for him
[00:12:03] him to celebrate. We know how dear dear the Invictus Games are to him,
[00:12:07] him, how close it is to his heart. heart. This is an event which is
[00:12:11] is around an awards event which is
[00:12:13] is celebrating the people who have have the communities around Invictus
[00:12:16] Invictus and the people who've really really championed and celebrated
[00:12:19] celebrated that cause. And so it's it's for him something he describes
[00:12:22] describes as a family. We know how how much it means to him. He, of
[00:12:25] of course, founded the Invictus Games,
[00:12:27] Games, which are for injured servicemen servicemen and servicewomen. So he
[00:12:31] he speaks a lot of this. The group group here as his family. And we
[00:12:34] we know that he is, as you say, treated treated as something of a hero when
[00:12:37] when he arrives at events like this. this. Even when he was living in
[00:12:40] in the US, he still made a point point of attending all these sorts sorts of events. Of course, now he
[00:12:44] he has moved back here. This is his
[00:12:47] his first big public event since since moving back here. So that will
[00:12:50] will be the focus today. No escaping escaping the Earl Spencer revelations.
[00:12:54] revelations. But of course for him, him, a moment to celebrate Meghan,
[00:12:57] Meghan, as you were saying there, there, she did not join him. There
[00:13:01] There had been some speculation she she might join on at this event because
[00:13:05] because she does tend to attend a
[00:13:06] a lot of the Invictus Games events
[00:13:09] events with him. But sources close
[00:13:11] close to the Sussexes have said that
[00:13:13] that her priority is really settling settling the children, Archie and
[00:13:16] and Lilibet into their new routine. routine. Of course they've just moved
[00:13:19] moved a country as well so it's a a big step for them and that is her
[00:13:22] her priority for the time being. being. So we understand that she
[00:13:25] she stayed with the children tonight.
[00:13:27] tonight. Noor Nanji they're reporting reporting from Greenwich. Let's take
[00:13:30] take a
[00:14:30] changing capital of Warsaw and the the buzzing port town of Gdansk. Gdansk. Join me, Julie Lynn, for
[00:14:34] for discovering the world's table
[00:14:35] table Poland on BBC News. Welcome
[00:14:43] Welcome back. The Secretary General General of Nato has told the BBC
[00:14:47] BBC there has to be a credible path
[00:14:50] path towards the UK meeting targets targets to increase defence spending.
[00:14:53] spending. Mark Rutte, on a visit visit to Britain, has met the Prime
[00:14:56] Prime Minister and Defence Secretary Secretary for the first time. He
[00:14:59] He also described drone strikes in in western Ukraine today very close
[00:15:02] close to the Polish border, as evidence evidence of Russia's desperation.
[00:15:06] desperation. Mr Rutter has been talking
[00:15:07] talking to our political editor,
[00:15:10] editor, Chris Mason. In eastern Poland
[00:15:14] Poland this morning, sirens blaring
[00:15:16] blaring Russia's war in Ukraine sounds
[00:15:19] sounds near drone strikes over the
[00:15:21] the border far too close for comfort.
[00:15:24] comfort. Is this yet another example example of a dangerous escalation
[00:15:27] escalation in this war? It's clearly
[00:15:29] clearly an example of increasingly
[00:15:32] increasingly reckless behaviour by by Russia and its president, but
[00:15:36] but also evidence of him being increasingly
[00:15:38] increasingly desperate. Should Nato Nato intercept Russian drones that
[00:15:42] that are over Ukrainian territory territory if they are approaching
[00:15:45] approaching a Nato border? There There is a limit to what I can go
[00:15:49] go into in a public interview, but but I can assure you we do everything
[00:15:53] everything to make sure that Nato Nato stays safe. Nato territory stay
[00:15:56] stay safe, that we can defend every every inch of that that's happening
[00:15:59] happening again. I can never get get into those operational details.
[00:16:02] details. I was told afterwards drones
[00:16:05] drones were not, at least yet intercepted
[00:16:08] intercepted by Nato while still over over Ukraine. How worried are you?
[00:16:11] you? How worried should we all be
[00:16:13] be that Russia will attack or invade
[00:16:16] invade a Nato country in the coming
[00:16:18] coming years? If you're willing to to sacrifice 1.2 million of your
[00:16:22] your own people in this crazy, unprovoked
[00:16:24] unprovoked fight, let's not be naive naive about what Putin could do,
[00:16:28] do, but we are stronger. I mean, mean, in. Other words, it could happen. happen. It could happen in the coming
[00:16:32] coming years. I don't think so because because we are strong, so strong
[00:16:35] strong that he will not try. But But we have to make sure of is that
[00:16:38] that we are as strong in two, three, three, five years from now.
[00:16:45] Years from now. You've been here meeting the Prime Minister, Minister, the Defence Secretary, Secretary, the Foreign Secretary,
[00:16:48] Secretary, as you all know, the Chancellor, Chancellor, John Healey, the former former Defence Secretary, resigned resigned because he wasn't certain.
[00:16:52] certain. No, he didn't think the the previous government would get
[00:16:54] get to 3% of national income on defence
[00:16:57] defence by 2030 and said that was was essential. The new government
[00:17:00] government hasn't yet explicitly explicitly committed to that. In In the conversations you've just
[00:17:04] just come from, are you confident confident they're going to manage
[00:17:07] manage that? I'm totally confident confident about what this government
[00:17:09] government wants to do. That is to
[00:17:12] to reach the 3.5 and 2035. Also understanding understanding that cannot be that
[00:17:15] that you stick to 2.6, 2.7 now and
[00:17:18] and then in one go in 2034 you would
[00:17:21] would go to 3.5. So you've long been been a sceptic about. A credible
[00:17:24] credible path. Yeah. Sounds like like they've not managed to be specific
[00:17:27] specific and reassure you that that
[00:17:29] that 3% target by 2030 is actually actually going to be met. I'm absolutely
[00:17:32] absolutely confident that when it it comes to the 3.5, they are there.
[00:17:36] there. I'm absolutely confident that that when it comes to the yearly
[00:17:39] yearly increments, they totally take take it and accept it that they have
[00:17:42] have to be there. What exactly the the pathway will be, we will see see next year in the spending review.
[00:17:46] review. Secretary General, thank thank you. Thank you very much. Chris
[00:17:49] Chris Mason there with the Nato Secretary Secretary General. Let's bring in
[00:17:52] in Major General Tim Cross, former former British Army major General, General, good to have you with us.
[00:17:56] us. Reuters says there has to be be a credible path to meeting the
[00:17:59] the targets. It didn't sound to me
[00:18:02] me like he'd been given a path to
[00:18:04] to getting to 3% by the end of this this parliament. Do you think there
[00:18:08] there is a credible path? No, no, no, there's absolutely not a credible
[00:18:11] credible path. I mean, he clearly clearly he's a good man and he clearly clearly needs to be a diplomat and
[00:18:15] and be very careful what he says says in public. And I don't know know what they said behind closed
[00:18:19] closed doors. And it may well be be that, you know, the British ministers
[00:18:22] ministers gave him a sense of that. that. They understand the scale of
[00:18:26] of the problem. But there is the the bottom line is it's pretty obvious
[00:18:29] obvious there is no plan. And, you
[00:18:31] you know, picking up what he was was saying in that interview. Ultimately,
[00:18:35] Ultimately, this is all about deterrence deterrence and trying to avoid the
[00:18:39] the fact that Russia tries it on on Nato by invading a Nato country
[00:18:43] country or indeed, you know, does does other things against us in a
[00:18:46] a sort of hybrid sense. But the bottom bottom line is there is no evidence
[00:18:49] evidence of any clear plan at all. all. There's lots of rhetoric, lots
[00:18:53] lots of promises, lots of lots of,
[00:18:55] of, you know, strategic defence reviews,
[00:18:57] reviews, etc but virtually no, no no action. And we know from the Prime
[00:19:01] Prime Minister's statement that he he that he I don't think he takes takes this very seriously at all.
[00:19:04] all. Right. OK. So you don't believe
[00:19:08] believe the reassurances he's given given and you would be pointing,
[00:19:11] pointing, would you, to what he said said about welfare payments and that
[00:19:15] that taking precedence over defence defence spending. Yeah. No, you know,
[00:19:19] know, I spent 43 years man and boy boy in the British Army and you know,
[00:19:22] know, clearly I see these things things from a certain perspective perspective and I absolutely recognise,
[00:19:26] recognise, you know, the Prime Minister's Minister's got all sorts of issues.
[00:19:28] issues. But nonetheless, you know, know, defence and security are, as
[00:19:31] as we all know, a key, if not the
[00:19:34] the most the most important issue issue for any nation. And we've had
[00:19:38] had years of rhetoric and people
[00:19:40] people talking about the need to to improve our defence, to spend
[00:19:43] spend more on defence, to recognise recognise the threats that are around
[00:19:46] around in the world, etc many, many many senior people saying that we're
[00:19:49] we're living in very difficult times, times, probably more dangerous times.
[00:19:53] times. People comparing it to the
[00:19:56] the mid 1930s, people talking about about a major war with Russia within
[00:19:59] within three years. You know, all all these words are being said, but
[00:20:02] but there is absolutely no evidence evidence that the Prime Minister
[00:20:05] Minister and indeed the previous previous Prime Minister really took
[00:20:08] took this seriously. They were not not they're not they don't seem to
[00:20:10] to be prepared to put their to coin coin the phrase, to put their money
[00:20:14] money where their mouth is. I recognise recognise the Chancellor's got difficulties
[00:20:17] difficulties and I like John Healey. Healey. He was a very good Defence Defence Secretary, but the fact that
[00:20:21] that he has basically announced that that he's going to kick this can
[00:20:24] can further down the road into next next year before he makes any statement
[00:20:27] statement is just indicative of the
[00:20:29] the problem. Can I push you on the the question that Chris asked of
[00:20:33] of Mark Rutte about drones over western
[00:20:36] western Ukraine? Two airports were were closed today in Poland. We had had a drone that
[00:20:44] We had a drone that came over the border into Lithuania yesterday. yesterday. Do you think we're fast
[00:20:47] fast approaching a situation where where Nato might consider taking taking down drones when they approach approach the border? Yeah, I think
[00:20:51] think so. I mean, you know, it's it's difficult to know. We talk about
[00:20:55] about Putin as if he's driving every, every, you know, every aspect of of this war in Ukraine. But there's
[00:20:59] there's no doubt in my mind at all all that Putin is pushing hard and
[00:21:02] and harder. He's going to give Ukraine
[00:21:04] Ukraine a hard time this winter particularly
[00:21:07] particularly in targeting their critical critical national infrastructure infrastructure and their energy and
[00:21:10] and so on. And he will push that that as far as he can go. And a lot
[00:21:14] lot of that means striking deep into into Ukraine, deep into Western territory
[00:21:18] territory of Ukraine with the danger danger that some of these drones drones will go across borders. But
[00:21:22] But most of these drones, you know, know, they know where they're going.
[00:21:25] going. So I think we're going to to see more of these incursions into
[00:21:29] into Nato territory. And I think think he's pushing to see how does
[00:21:32] does Nato respond to this. And in in all in you know, in dealing with
[00:21:35] with these sorts of guys, history history tells us you have to be robust.
[00:21:39] robust. You have to you have to show show that you are prepared to, you
[00:21:42] you know, to take him on. So yeah, yeah, I think the pressure is building.
[00:21:46] building. I'm not saying it's happening happening at the moment. I don't don't think it is actually, but I
[00:21:50] I don't think there's any doubt that that Poland and others on that, you
[00:21:53] you know, right on the border with with what's going on here are going
[00:21:57] going to be pushing hard to say. say. We've got to start doing something something about these incursions
[00:22:01] incursions into our territory. So So yeah, I think it's coming. Major Major cross. Good to talk to you
[00:22:04] you this evening. Thank you for coming coming on. Not at all. The United
[00:22:07] United Nations is warning of a serious serious decline in the amount of
[00:22:11] of fresh water stored on the Earth's Earth's surface. The annual report
[00:22:14] report from the UN's World Meteorological Meteorological Organisation says
[00:22:16] says rivers and lakes are drying drying up while glaciers are retreating.
[00:22:20] retreating. It says the increasingly increasingly erratic weather caused
[00:22:22] caused by climate change is predicted predicted to cause both floods and
[00:22:26] and drought. The authors say there there will be particularly severe
[00:22:29] severe consequences for Asia and and Africa, where 80% of water related
[00:22:32] related disasters have occurred in in recent years. Here's the WMO Secretary
[00:22:36] Secretary General. Celeste Saulo
[00:22:38] Saulo for the fourth consecutive
[00:22:41] consecutive year in 2025, every major
[00:22:43] major glaciated region on earth lost
[00:22:46] lost ice mass. Several regions with
[00:22:49] with smaller glaciers, including
[00:22:50] including the Alps show signs of
[00:22:54] of having past peak water. This is
[00:22:56] is the point at which glaciers can can no longer contribute more meltwater
[00:23:00] meltwater in a hot year, because because it has run out of ice to
[00:23:04] to give. Let's get a view on that. that. We can speak to Naho Mirumachi.
[00:23:07] Mirumachi. She is professor of environmental environmental politics and co-director
[00:23:11] co-director of the King's Water Centre Centre at King's College London. London. Thank you for being with
[00:23:14] with us. Bluntly, what exactly is
[00:23:18] is disappearing and how fast? So
[00:23:21] So what we're seeing is that we're
[00:23:23] we're losing massive chunks of these
[00:23:25] these glaciers from places like the
[00:23:27] the Arctic, Iceland, parts of Canada
[00:23:29] Canada and also places like the South
[00:23:31] South Asia. And we're losing over
[00:23:35] over 1400 gigatons of water when
[00:23:38] when they melt. Now this is a problem
[00:23:40] problem because quite often these
[00:23:42] these glaciers are water storage storage bodies for us. They become
[00:23:46] become very useful during our dry dry seasons when we need water further
[00:23:50] further downstream. So when there there are no glaciers, when they're
[00:23:54] they're melting very rapidly, there's there's not a lot of water left to
[00:23:57] to use in other times of the year. year. During the dry season. And
[00:24:00] And when they melt, they also cause cause flash floods. And we know that
[00:24:04] that this can be very devastating
[00:24:06] devastating for livelihoods. Right. Right. So if you extrapolate that
[00:24:09] that if lakes are drying up and riverbeds riverbeds are drying up and they're
[00:24:13] they're not being replenished by by glaciers, are we becoming more
[00:24:17] more dependent on salt water? Well, Well, there are lots of technologies
[00:24:21] technologies that are trying to look look at how we can convert salt water
[00:24:24] water into fresh water, but we need
[00:24:27] need lots of fresh water to support
[00:24:30] support not just our drinking water water to flush or lose, to have showers,
[00:24:33] showers, but also to produce food
[00:24:36] food and agriculture. So this is is the thing that puzzles me though,
[00:24:39] though, is that we were told because because of the climate change, there there was going to be more moisture
[00:24:42] moisture in the air, more rainfall. rainfall. Yes. That's right. But
[00:24:45] But the thing is, it doesn't happen
[00:24:48] happen evenly across the world. So So there are some places that gets
[00:24:51] gets lots of rain and then places places that don't get a lot of rain.
[00:24:54] rain. And we're also seeing different different timings. And this also
[00:24:58] also impacts farming because you you need the right amount of rain
[00:25:01] rain at the right amount of time time on the land. You need it. So
[00:25:05] So this is why it's not working out
[00:25:08] out just because we have lots more more water and. And is it just this
[00:25:12] this year? It's a bad year because because of the El Nino cycle we know
[00:25:14] know we're in. Or is this a permanent
[00:25:16] permanent shift. So we're seeing
[00:25:18] seeing a trend where there are drying drying rivers where there is going
[00:25:22] going to be lots more melting of
[00:25:25] of glaciers. Our groundwater is also
[00:25:28] also being slowly recharged, but but not at the rate that we need
[00:25:31] need it to be. So if we go from one
[00:25:34] one extreme to another, from another another drought to another drought,
[00:25:37] drought, we don't have enough time time for these water bodies to replenish.
[00:25:40] replenish. And that's where the real
[00:25:42] real challenge lies. Professor really
[00:25:45] really interesting. Thank you for for coming on the programme. Really
[00:25:48] Really interesting. And of course, course, a great concern to many countries
[00:25:52] countries around the world. We are are going to take a short break very very shortly. But coming up the other
[00:25:56] other side of that break, we're going going to take you to our latest edition
[00:25:59] edition of AI Decoded. We're going going to talk to our panel here in
[00:26:03] in the studio. And of course, our our focus will be
[00:27:35] temperatures peaking into the mid mid 40s. Take care.
[00:29:39] fast changing capital of Warsaw and and the buzzing port town of Gdansk.
[00:29:42] Gdansk. Join me, Julie Lynn, for
[00:29:44] for discovering the world table Poland
[00:29:47] Poland on BBC News. Here at BBC Verify
[00:29:53] Verify we use forensic investigative investigative techniques and tools
[00:29:55] tools to fact check stories, verify
[00:29:58] verify information and counter disinformation disinformation using data analysis analysis and the latest technology,
[00:30:02] technology, our journalists examine examine the evidence and get to the the facts. Watch our BBC Verify reports
[00:30:05] reports on the BBC News channel or
[00:30:07] or go online to find out more. MUSIC
[00:30:18] MUSIC These These are the latest headlines from
[00:30:20] from BBC News. King Charles warns warns of the existential dangers
[00:30:24] dangers of AI systems falling into into the wrong hands as he addresses
[00:30:27] addresses tech leaders at a summit
[00:30:29] summit in Scotland. The Duke of Sussex Sussex has been seen for the first
[00:30:32] first time in public since returning returning to the UK, when he arrived
[00:30:35] arrived at an awards ceremony for
[00:30:37] for the Invictus Games. More allegations
[00:30:40] allegations from Earl Spencer in in the latest extract from his book
[00:30:43] book on Princess Diana, he claims
[00:30:45] claims the then Prince Charles sounded sounded giddily elated on the night
[00:30:49] night Princess Diana died. South South African police say they have
[00:30:53] have found the body of a ninth woman woman near Johannesburg in a spate
[00:30:56] spate of murders, causing fear and
[00:30:59] and outrage across the country. The The head of Nato tells the BBC there
[00:31:03] there has to be a credible path towards
[00:31:05] towards the UK meeting targets to
[00:31:08] to increase defence spending and and the United Nations warns of a
[00:31:12] a serious decline in the amount of
[00:31:13] of fresh water stored on the Earth's
[00:31:17] Earth's surface.
[00:31:29] Welcome to AI Decoded. King Charles has warned of the existential
[00:31:33] existential dangers of AI falling falling into the wrong hands. Addressing
[00:31:36] Addressing tech leaders at Dumfries Dumfries House in Scotland today.
[00:31:40] today. Among those at the table,
[00:31:42] table, Nvidia. Google, DeepMind,
[00:31:45] DeepMind, OpenAI and Anthropic and and a delegation from China. Now
[00:31:48] Now the King has no power to regulate regulate any of this. What he does
[00:31:52] does have is convening power, the the ability to get rivals into the
[00:31:55] the same room. Can they set aside
[00:31:57] aside the white hot competition to
[00:32:00] to agree shared principles that keep
[00:32:02] keep AI in the service of humanity? humanity? The substantive discussions
[00:32:06] discussions were taking place behind behind closed doors. We will discuss
[00:32:09] discuss tonight what progress might might look like. But first let's
[00:32:12] let's hear a little bit of what the the King had to say at the opening
[00:32:16] opening of this summit. AI is already
[00:32:19] already showing its immense capacity
[00:32:21] capacity to improve and save life.
[00:32:24] life. For example, in the field of
[00:32:26] of life sciences and medicine, yet
[00:32:31] yet those who have created these
[00:32:33] these technologies are now increasingly increasingly warning that AI risks
[00:32:37] risks developing darker capacities.
[00:32:39] capacities. Perhaps even to take
[00:32:42] take life. And in this regard, if
[00:32:44] if I may say so, there seems urgency
[00:32:47] urgency in adequately considering
[00:32:50] considering the existential dangers dangers of such technologies falling
[00:32:53] falling into the wrong hands. It It is rather an incongruous sight.
[00:32:57] sight. The monarchy, one of the world's world's oldest institutions sitting
[00:33:01] sitting down with the new lords of of artificial intelligence, first
[00:33:05] first among them Jensen Huang president president and chief executive of
[00:33:08] of Nvidia. He was asked directly directly whether he could offer any
[00:33:11] any reassurance in the face of some some pretty existential warnings
[00:33:15] warnings from within the industry
[00:33:16] industry this past week. It is the
[00:33:20] the responsibility of the AI companies companies ourselves to develop the
[00:33:24] the technology safely and to properly
[00:33:26] properly test it. There were incidents
[00:33:29] incidents and those incidents thankfully
[00:33:32] thankfully did no harm. But those those incidents are a reminder that
[00:33:35] that as we move from labs to product
[00:33:39] product development, the companies companies have to become much more
[00:33:43] more rigorous in testing and securing securing and making sure that the
[00:33:47] the products are ready for use before
[00:33:49] before it's released. And in doing
[00:33:52] doing so, if it's not ready, just just hold it back. You should go
[00:33:56] go as fast as you can, but no faster
[00:33:58] faster than that. Pacing. We'll talk talk about that in the course of
[00:34:02] of the programme. We're joined in in the studio by Daryl Flack partner
[00:34:05] partner at AI Security company Avella
[00:34:08] Avella Security, and also here AI AI Decoded Stephanie Hare, author
[00:34:11] author of the book Technology is
[00:34:14] is Not Neutral. Quite an extensive extensive family photo in Ayrshire
[00:34:17] Ayrshire today. Lots of different different figures from the world
[00:34:19] world of AI. And Stephanie's been been telling me while we were off
[00:34:23] off air that she's been plotting plotting on a piece of paper the
[00:34:26] the narrative, which might be quite quite a big bubble map because there
[00:34:29] there are different narratives from from different directions. Yeah.
[00:34:32] Yeah. So if we take it from the top, top, I see four groups and we may
[00:34:35] may evolve this over time. I think think the first one are the people
[00:34:38] people who are worrying that AI could could kill humanity. So call those
[00:34:42] those your AI doomers and they are are walking the walk with their claim
[00:34:45] claim by resigning. So like the Anthropic Anthropic researcher last week who
[00:34:49] who resigned and then made his statement statement to the public over Twitter,
[00:34:52] Twitter, but also Yoshua Bengio, Bengio, who is the world's most cited
[00:34:55] cited computer scientist. These are are people who are spending their their lives and really putting their
[00:34:59] their money on the line to try and and make sure that AI does not kill
[00:35:02] kill humanity. Then there's a group group of people who think that AI
[00:35:05] AI could or even will kill humanity, humanity, but they would like to
[00:35:09] to make generational wealth before before that happens. So that's where
[00:35:12] where we would put, I think, Elon
[00:35:15] Elon Musk, Sam Altman, Dario Amodei
[00:35:18] Amodei and I reckon even Demis Hassabis
[00:35:21] Hassabis of Google DeepMind because because they're building while warning
[00:35:25] warning they're not stopping. They They haven't slowed down in any way, way, shape or form, but they'd like
[00:35:28] like to tell us all how worried they they are in very long manifestos
[00:35:31] manifestos that they publish online.
[00:35:34] online. Then there's the people who who say, I don't think AI is going
[00:35:38] going to kill us at all. And in fact, fact, this is all a con. This is
[00:35:41] is distracting us. This hypothetical hypothetical scenario from the real
[00:35:45] real risks of AI, the ones that are are already happening today, which
[00:35:49] which is algorithmic discrimination. discrimination. It's not a sustainable sustainable technology. It requires
[00:35:52] requires lots of energy and water. water. How are we going to build build all of this? They're powered
[00:35:56] powered by fossil fuels, these data data centres. So what are we going going to do with climate change?
[00:35:59] change? Right. So they want us to to focus on that. They think this
[00:36:02] this is all a distraction. And then
[00:36:04] then we conclude with the AI boomers
[00:36:07] boomers or Accelerationists are the the ones who are like full steam
[00:36:09] steam ahead. This is led by Jensen
[00:36:12] Jensen Huang of Nvidia who says go go for it. And of course President President Trump, who thinks we have
[00:36:16] have all the guardrails we need because
[00:36:18] because all we need is a smart, high
[00:36:20] high IQ president. And we have that that in the United States. There
[00:36:24] There is an ocean between these different different viewpoints. Daryl, how
[00:36:28] how do you get them all around the
[00:36:29] the table to agree a safe way forward?
[00:36:32] forward? I think that's part of what what King Charles has tried to do
[00:36:35] do today. I think making it non-political non-political today is probably the
[00:36:38] the starting point where there aren't aren't anyone to lobby from a political
[00:36:42] political point of view and have have partisan views, and to create create that neutral environment where
[00:36:45] where people can hopefully speak speak their mind and agree a way
[00:36:49] way of achieving a safe path forward. forward. Unfortunately, with all
[00:36:53] all of the diversity of views and and opinions, that's not going to
[00:36:56] to be easy. And sometimes what people people say in front of the cameras cameras isn't quite what they're
[00:36:59] they're saying behind closed doors, doors, right? One of the solutions
[00:37:03] solutions that has been put forward
[00:37:05] forward by Dario Amodei in his 3500
[00:37:09] 3500 word open letter over the weekend, weekend, was that they should invite
[00:37:12] invite in to the company to see first-hand
[00:37:15] first-hand the training of frontier
[00:37:18] frontier models, independent assessors. assessors. Can you ever envisage
[00:37:21] envisage a scenario where all the the companies would agree to that?
[00:37:24] that? It's almost like we're talking
[00:37:26] talking about AI as a potential weapon, weapon, which would make sense because
[00:37:29] because it's a dual use or multi multi use technology. And that reminds
[00:37:33] reminds me a little bit about inspections inspections regimes that we have
[00:37:35] have for things like biological, biological, chemical and nuclear
[00:37:38] nuclear warfare. If they think that that what they are building is that
[00:37:41] that dangerous and they're the ones ones saying it, not us. Why not have
[00:37:44] have an inspection regime for AI?
[00:37:47] AI? We'll talk more because this this week on the YouTube edition
[00:37:50] edition of AI Decoded, we've been been discussing this very issue the the threats, the solutions and whether
[00:37:54] whether it's possible to pace the the development of the most advanced advanced frontier models. We had
[00:37:58] had two leading experts on AI security security with us, Max Corbridge and
[00:38:01] and Andrew Weber, and I asked Max Max if these latest AI models were
[00:38:05] were to outrun our capability to to understand them, whether we'd
[00:38:09] we'd even know what was coming. We We wouldn't know. And that's the
[00:38:12] the really tricky thing. The continued continued development of this technology
[00:38:16] technology is largely happening in in some closed doors in one state
[00:38:20] state within the US, and the models
[00:38:22] models that we consume from the public public perspective, we wouldn't be
[00:38:25] be the first to know. Maybe. Maybe Maybe we'd see continued evolution
[00:38:28] evolution of these models closer closer or shorter gaps between models
[00:38:32] models being released, bigger leaps leaps in the models capabilities,
[00:38:36] capabilities, but only the models models that we see publicly. And And those are not going to be all
[00:38:39] all the models. We know that both both the major AI labs are doing doing a lot of work behind the scenes
[00:38:43] scenes that maybe doesn't make it it out into the public, and that's that's where a lot of this risk is
[00:38:46] is really living within those walls walls that we don't get the view
[00:38:49] view into when. It comes to regulation. regulation. Andy, let's talk about
[00:38:53] about the three step plan that Ahmed
[00:38:54] Ahmed has put on the table embedded
[00:38:57] embedded third party evaluators within
[00:39:00] within companies with employee like like access. So common standards
[00:39:04] standards across democracies, to to the extent that's possible pacing
[00:39:07] pacing with China and the authoritarian authoritarian states, if that's possible,
[00:39:11] possible, does any of that do you you think survive contact with the
[00:39:15] the real world? I think so, I think
[00:39:18] think I'm already after the Hugging
[00:39:20] Hugging Face incident, at least two
[00:39:22] two of the frontier laboratories
[00:39:24] laboratories invited an independent independent evaluation group called
[00:39:28] called metre Meta into their. This
[00:39:30] This is the non-profit in Berkeley, Berkeley, California. Yes, exactly.
[00:39:34] exactly. With expertise. And they
[00:39:36] they were given not complete access. access. In the future I'd like to
[00:39:40] to see them get more access. But But if each of the Frontier Labs
[00:39:44] Labs would agree to allow such independent
[00:39:48] independent audits, if you will,
[00:39:49] will, I think that will go a long
[00:39:53] long way to understanding the threat
[00:39:56] threat and preventing it before it it gets out of control. And even
[00:39:59] even though Meta was given sort of of limited access, didn't they come
[00:40:02] come up with some, you know, quite, quite, quite chilling results? You
[00:40:05] You know, they weren't shown all all of the work. They weren't shown shown all of the logs. And yet with
[00:40:09] with the small amount that they were were shown and the small amount of
[00:40:12] of time that they had access to stuff, stuff, the results that they came came back with were quite were really
[00:40:16] really quite worrying, weren't
[00:40:19] they? Yes. I think that's why we're we're seeing so much urgency at the
[00:40:22] the moment. The mythos moment earlier
[00:40:26] earlier this year and then the Hugging
[00:40:30] Hugging Face incident these agents agents teaming up and breaking out
[00:40:33] out of the sandbox and not finding finding out about it until there
[00:40:37] there was a significant lag time.
[00:40:39] time. This has really set off alarm
[00:40:42] alarm bells inside the Frontier Laboratories Laboratories and for the first time
[00:40:45] time they're talking about co-operating co-operating together to get a handle
[00:40:49] handle on these risks. The interesting interesting thing actually about
[00:40:52] about Meta Daryl was that they kind kind of went into the company after
[00:40:55] after this Hugging Face incident incident with one hand tied behind
[00:40:59] behind their back and still found found significant red flags. And
[00:41:01] And I think that's some of the concerns
[00:41:04] concerns in that in order for there there to be independent assurance,
[00:41:07] assurance, it needs to be open, independent independent assurance, it needs to
[00:41:09] to be with all of the guardrails guardrails down, complete visibility
[00:41:13] visibility of all of the logs, all all of the chain of thought that that is going on behind the scenes.
[00:41:17] scenes. But the downside then is is that equally, some of these models models can hide what they're thinking
[00:41:20] thinking and use deception to avoid avoid writing things to logs. So
[00:41:23] So unless you've got full open access access and I would suggest that needs
[00:41:26] needs to be done outside of the frontier frontier AI environments. It should
[00:41:30] should be done in independent environments environments like the AI Security Security Institute in the UK. I think
[00:41:34] think unless you're doing it in those those environments where you can
[00:41:36] can fully test across a whole range range of different examples where
[00:41:40] where you can see how it's behaving, behaving, how it's writing to logs,
[00:41:44] logs, having real time views. I think think you're going to have a real
[00:41:47] real problem to understand what the the true challenges are going to
[00:41:49] to be. Because I mean, what we have
[00:41:52] have had in the last week is an acceptance acceptance for an acknowledgement acknowledgement from the companies
[00:41:55] companies that they don't fully understand understand what is going on in the
[00:41:59] the brain of the models, the frontier frontier models they're training. And if you don't understand
[00:42:02] understand what's going on behind behind the scenes, how can you protect
[00:42:06] protect from it ultimately the outcomes outcomes that you're trying to achieve
[00:42:08] achieve if those goals aren't aligned aligned with the goals that you want
[00:42:11] want them to be aligned with, then then they're going to start behaving
[00:42:14] behaving in ways that you don't expect. expect. And so trying to create an
[00:42:17] an environment, a sandbox that secure, secure, that can prevent that kind
[00:42:20] kind of escape from task driven and
[00:42:22] and objective driven outcomes is is going to be pretty difficult.
[00:42:26] difficult. If that is the case. And And I speak to you as an American
[00:42:30] American and Donald Trump doesn't doesn't want to legislate on that
[00:42:32] that and wants to stand in the way way of legislation. And there is
[00:42:36] is a threat, a cyber threat to all
[00:42:38] all of us, don't we? As individual
[00:42:41] individual countries have to take take proper precautions and pass
[00:42:43] pass our own laws, irrespective of
[00:42:45] of whether there is a threat of tariffs tariffs for doing that? Yes. And
[00:42:48] And that's I think, a really important important point to raise. We know
[00:42:52] know that Washington, DC is going going to be the site of a meeting
[00:42:54] meeting between President Trump and and China's President, Xi Jinping,
[00:42:58] Jinping, on the 24th of September. September. Lots of talk about whether whether or not these two leaders
[00:43:01] leaders are going to agree some sort sort of AI safety standards. I regret
[00:43:04] regret to say I do not think we should should be holding our breath on that.
[00:43:08] that. They see the problem really really differently. China is not
[00:43:11] not worried about this. China would would actually belong in the third third category that I was mentioning
[00:43:15] mentioning of. We're not worried worried about this existential risk
[00:43:17] risk to humanity. That's a very Bay Bay area. Because there was reporting
[00:43:20] reporting this week that their spy spy chief had raised the flag, that
[00:43:24] that it could be a problem for the the Communist Party. So they're worried
[00:43:26] worried about their control. Control
[00:43:28] Control of the population. So misinformation, misinformation, disinformation, people
[00:43:32] people becoming psychologically crazy crazy because they have relationships relationships with chat bots that
[00:43:35] that persuade them to kill themselves. themselves. All the things that we're we're seeing already, and of course,
[00:43:38] course, the existing cyber security security risks, these are things
[00:43:41] things that are happening today. We're worried about the United United States being the leader. Well,
[00:43:44] Well, there's also the fact that that from China's perspective, it's it's the United States that looks
[00:43:47] looks like the crazy country with with the President that doesn't want
[00:43:50] want to regulate and the companies companies that are going gangbusters
[00:43:53] gangbusters and building fast and and releasing products onto the market
[00:43:56] market that are not safe. That's That's where Jensen Huang was very very interesting. The CEO of Nvidia,
[00:44:00] Nvidia, when he said, you don't put put a car onto the road if it is
[00:44:04] is not safe and roadworthy, you would would not release drugs into the
[00:44:06] the market. If they are not safe, safe, things have to pass safety safety tests before you sell them.
[00:44:10] them. Why are these AI companies
[00:44:11] companies doing that? Why are they
[00:44:15] they asking for regulation? Presumably
[00:44:17] Presumably there is state law which
[00:44:20] which exists already under which which they have liability. So why
[00:44:23] why do they want federal law and and is it I mean, am I being cynical
[00:44:27] cynical to suggest that maybe it's it's because they know there are
[00:44:29] are lawsuits coming down the road? Well, I think as organisations organisations their first duty is
[00:44:33] is to sort of grow their business business and to grow the value of of their business. So unless there
[00:44:37] there are regulations in place that that force them to do things, ultimately
[00:44:41] ultimately they're going to be driven driven from a commercial angle. And
[00:44:44] And so for having to have frontier frontier AI companies coming out out asking for regulation, I think
[00:44:48] think is them saying we're aware aware that we've got a problem here
[00:44:51] here and doing it on our own against against the competitive environment
[00:44:54] environment isn't going to sort of of cut the mustard for our internal internal shareholders or from our
[00:44:58] our internal value point of view. view. We need everyone to agree that
[00:45:01] that we need to slow down order for for in us to put the right security
[00:45:04] security guards in place. We could could talk plenty more about it,
[00:45:07] it, couldn't we? But we are out of of time. Stephanie. Daryl, thank thank you very much indeed. Just
[00:45:11] Just to remind you that AI Decoded Decoded YouTube version is out tomorrow.
[00:45:14] tomorrow. It's a really good listen listen at 24 minutes where we knock
[00:45:17] knock all this around, do take a a look at it. It'll be up first thing
[00:45:20] thing tomorrow morning. Daryl. Stephanie,
[00:45:23] Stephanie, thank you very much indeed. indeed. We're going to take a short
[00:45:26] short break around the world and and across
[00:46:28] for world questions. Nigeria truth,
[00:46:31] truth, trust and fake news on BBC
[00:46:34] BBC News. Welcome back. The National
[00:46:42] National Portrait Gallery in London London has unveiled one of the earliest
[00:46:46] earliest known portraits of a black black individual in Western art.
[00:46:50] art. The 400-year-old painting shows
[00:46:52] shows two teenage boys standing side-by-side.
[00:46:54] side-by-side. One of African heritage heritage and one of European descent.
[00:46:58] descent. An inscription says. Both
[00:47:01] Both were 13 and identifies the boy boy on the left as Prince Rupert,
[00:47:04] Rupert, a nephew of Charles the First. First. The identity of the other
[00:47:08] other boy is unknown. The gallery gallery hopes the portrait will challenge
[00:47:12] challenge historical preconceptions preconceptions about the presence presence of people of African heritage
[00:47:16] heritage in Europe. I'm joined to to discuss it by Charlotte Bolland,
[00:47:20] Bolland, a senior curator, researcher
[00:47:22] researcher and 16th century collections collections at the National Portrait
[00:47:25] Portrait Gallery. Thank you very very much for being with us. So what what are we looking at here? Take
[00:47:29] Take us through it. Well, it's a
[00:47:32] a really unusual double portrait portrait from the period. As you you see, you've got these two kind
[00:47:35] kind of teenage boys standing side-by-side.
[00:47:38] side-by-side. And it's also quite quite intriguing in its scale that
[00:47:41] that it's actually a small double double portrait as you can see. But
[00:47:44] But they're dressed kind of ready ready to go hunting. So they've got got this landscape in the background
[00:47:48] background and in this rather unusual unusual setting with a sort of swagged swagged curtain and column behind
[00:47:51] behind them. But the main thing is, is, is this really interesting kind
[00:47:54] kind of parallel pose that they have have standing side-by-side. Who painted
[00:47:58] painted it? We do not know. There There are so many mysteries with
[00:48:02] with this painting, and that's one one of the things that we're researching
[00:48:05] researching and really hoping by by having it on display with other
[00:48:08] other works by artists from the period, period, we can really investigate investigate that question as to who
[00:48:11] who might have made it. So if you you don't know who painted it, how
[00:48:14] how can you date it to more than
[00:48:17] than 400 years old. That it's got got really useful information. It's
[00:48:20] It's got an inscription on it dating dating the painting to 1626. And
[00:48:24] And this correlates both to all the the materials and techniques that
[00:48:27] that are in use and also the costume costume that the boys are wearing.
[00:48:29] wearing. So we're really kind of of confident with that date. And
[00:48:33] And that is just really early for for a portrait of this type. From
[00:48:36] From the scholars who've looked at at it, have they been able to ascertain
[00:48:40] ascertain if that's Prince Rupert, Rupert, who he was? I mean, was he
[00:48:43] he a servant, a companion, a boy
[00:48:45] boy of status? What do the clothes
[00:48:48] clothes and the composition of this this painting tell you? Well, that
[00:48:51] that thing that the mystery kind kind of deepens because the Prince Prince Rupert is actually a kind
[00:48:54] kind of false trail that it's we've we've realised through technical
[00:48:57] technical analysis that it's actually actually a later addition to the
[00:49:00] the portrait. So while the date and and the age of the boy is original,
[00:49:03] original, the Prince Rupert is a a later addition. So we can kind
[00:49:06] kind of discard that identity. So So we've really got to kind of start
[00:49:10] start from scratch from looking at at the dates. But they look to be
[00:49:13] be very kind of wealthy. The large large amount of kind of gold embroidery
[00:49:17] embroidery and just the ambition ambition of commissioning a portrait portrait of that type, but perhaps
[00:49:20] perhaps not the kind of most elite elite of the top of the aristocracy,
[00:49:23] aristocracy, the kind of very wealthy
[00:49:25] wealthy gentry, merchant class, perhaps.
[00:49:28] perhaps. So where has it been up
[00:49:30] up to this point? And you said it's
[00:49:33] it's 1626, so obviously it is bang bang on 400 years. What story are
[00:49:37] are you hoping to tell the public? public? So this portrait belongs
[00:49:41] belongs to the Sidney family and and has been at Penshurst Place in
[00:49:45] in Kent at least since the mid 18th
[00:49:47] 18th century, but quite possibly possibly since the painting was made.
[00:49:51] made. So that's the kind of first first area we're looking through through is working with the Sidney
[00:49:54] Sidney family and collaboration to to kind of track through inventories
[00:49:57] inventories and also thinking about about kind of family networks because
[00:50:01] because they're connected to all all sorts of interesting families families that were really involved
[00:50:04] involved in the early 17th century
[00:50:06] century with the beginnings of England's
[00:50:09] England's activities in America and and the kind of trading companies
[00:50:12] companies like the Virginia Company Company through the Earl of Warwick,
[00:50:15] Warwick, the Smythe family. So all all these networks is where we're we're kind of really looking in to
[00:50:18] to try and identify these boys. Right. Right. You had any reaction from
[00:50:22] from those who've seen it? Yes. I
[00:50:24] I mean, people it's only just gone
[00:50:26] gone on display this morning following following conservation treatment.
[00:50:30] treatment. But prior to it, the people people who've the researchers have have been able to come into the conservation
[00:50:34] conservation studio have just been been so struck, I think, by how immediately
[00:50:37] immediately engaging kind of the the portrait is that I've had kind kind of colleagues sort of say, you
[00:50:41] you know, I went to school with them
[00:50:43] them and there's something brilliantly
[00:50:46] brilliantly kind of human and understandable understandable about them that makes makes you want to learn more about
[00:50:50] about their lives. Charlotte it's it's a lovely story. I look forward forward to seeing it. I'm going to
[00:50:54] to go and have a look. Charlotte Charlotte Bolland, curator and senior
[00:50:57] senior researcher at the National National Portrait Gallery. Thank
[00:50:59] Thank you very much indeed. That's That's it from me. We will be back
[00:51:03] back same time tomorrow. Do join
[00:51:05] join us for that. Thanks for watching.
[00:51:12] watching. MUSIC
[00:51:22] I know this might sound weird,
[00:51:25] but I've been obsessed with the oldest
[00:51:27] oldest person in the world for years.
[00:51:32] years. Meet adventurous Brooklyn Brooklyn based, Oscar nominated filmmaker
[00:51:36] filmmaker Sam Green. Since 2015, 2015, he's been travelling the world,
[00:51:40] world, chronicling the forever changing changing holders of the title of
[00:51:42] of oldest person in the world. Its
[00:51:46] Its survey has included Kane Tanaka Tanaka in Japan, who held the title
[00:51:49] title for four years. And then there's
[00:51:51] there's the oldest person ever, Jeanne
[00:51:54] Jeanne Louise Calment, who when she
[00:51:56] she died in 1997, was 122 years old.
[00:51:58] old. In her later years she recorded
[00:52:00] recorded a rap album. The thing I I liked about the film Sam Green's
[00:52:04] Green's investigation of these very very senior citizens has become a
[00:52:07] a lifelong project. A documentary documentary based on his survey so
[00:52:10] so far has just been released. He
[00:52:12] He has long been fascinated by why
[00:52:14] why the news media and the public
[00:52:17] public are so interested in the title title holder of the oldest person
[00:52:20] person in the world. To this day, day, I still don't fully understand
[00:52:23] understand it. Is this a fear of
[00:52:26] of death? Is this a fear of fate
[00:52:29] fate or a you know, one of those
[00:52:31] those things like with the car crash
[00:52:33] crash where you can't look away but
[00:52:35] but you don't want to look at it? it? In making his documentary, Sam
[00:52:39] Sam Green found there was nearly nearly always a desire on the part
[00:52:41] part of others to find out if there's there's a secret to longevity. The
[00:52:45] The elderly people, he observed, observed, had all kinds of answers
[00:52:48] answers for why they'd led a long long life. One woman stated she'd
[00:52:52] she'd live for a long time because because she'd stayed away from men.
[00:52:55] men. She also said her secret was was eating three raw eggs a day.
[00:52:59] day. Two, you know, so it's like like the media descends on these
[00:53:02] these people. Everybody asks them them what their secret is and they
[00:53:06] they say something and everybody everybody runs with that. This documentary
[00:53:09] documentary often shows that other other people, the outside world is
[00:53:12] is often much more intrigued by the the oldest person in the world than
[00:53:16] than the subjects who hold that title.
[00:53:18] title. But this film isn't just about about the very old. It's also about
[00:53:22] about life and death and events in in the filmmaker's own life the birth
[00:53:26] birth of a son and his own confrontation confrontation with a life threatening
[00:53:29] threatening illness. These things things started to creep into the
[00:53:32] the movie, so over time it becomes
[00:53:34] becomes a larger meditation, I hope,
[00:53:37] hope, about time and the mysteries mysteries of being alive and fate
[00:53:40] fate and all these big questions
[00:53:43] questions that we ask ourselves.
[00:53:46] ourselves. The last person I interviewed, interviewed, a Spanish woman named
[00:53:49] named Maria Branyas, she was very very funny. She even was making fun
[00:53:53] fun of me, which I love. But in.
[00:53:55] in. At a moment in the interview
[00:53:57] interview she said, you are young. young. What else? I was jobless.
[00:54:01] jobless. Now is the time to do good good works. What you were saying
[00:54:05] saying is you're young and you have
[00:54:07] have time, so use it. And I think
[00:54:10] think that's a beautiful thing to
[00:54:15] to appreciate. Over the last ten ten years, Sam Green has met many
[00:54:18] many of those who've held the title title of oldest person in the world.
[00:54:21] world. But there's been one holdout
[00:54:23] holdout the current title holder, holder, 117-year-old Ethel Caterham,
[00:54:27] Caterham, who lives in Surrey, just just outside London. She was born
[00:54:31] born in Edwardian times. She is the
[00:54:33] the first person in ten years who
[00:54:37] who has rebuffed my overtures. But But she did let King Charles visit
[00:54:40] visit her, didn't she? When I saw
[00:54:43] saw a video of her in King Charles
[00:54:46] Charles and I thought, Charles, not
[00:54:47] not me. You know she's British. She's
[00:54:51] She's the last Edwardian. So I guess guess she feels some allegiance to
[00:54:54] to the King. But you know, come on. on. I've been doing this for ten
[00:54:57] ten years. Even though this documentary documentary focuses on the very old
[00:55:01] old and very fragile. It makes the the point that there is much to learn
[00:55:04] learn from observing them and from from the filmmaker himself about
[00:55:08] about what it means to live a thoughtful
[00:55:10] thoughtful life. It is an unexpectedly
[00:55:13] unexpectedly life affirming film.
[00:59:02] I was here at the very first
[00:59:04] protest. The party had organised
[00:59:07] organised about a month ago, and and this is so much bigger. We've
[00:59:10] We've been driving towards the site site of this wildfire, but we've we've just stopped at the side of
[00:59:14] of the road here because of what what we saw out the window. Spain
[00:59:18] Spain is still burning. This man man has been pulled out successfully.
[00:59:21] successfully. It's taken a mammoth mammoth mammoth rescue effort. These
[00:59:25] These young rebels are heading back
[00:59:26] back to the front line to pull. There's
[00:59:29] There's a hunter base there which which these men have been trying
[00:59:33] trying to take for two years now. now. From the entrance of the pub
[00:59:36] pub this morning, you get very little little sense of the terrible scenes
[00:59:39] scenes that were witnessed here last last night. There. When the story
[00:59:43] story breaks. BBC News.
[01:00:08] MUSIC
[01:00:17] I'm Caitriona Perry in Washington and this is BBC World
[01:00:20] World News America. King Charles
[01:00:23] Charles urges leading tech bosses bosses developing AI to ensure our
[01:00:26] our humanity remains sacred, as he
[01:00:29] he warns of existential dangers.
[01:00:33] dangers. Those who have created these
[01:00:35] these technologies are now increasingly increasingly warning that AI risks
[01:00:39] risks developing darker capacities.
[01:00:42] capacities. Perhaps even to take
[01:00:45] take life. Possible war crimes by
[01:00:48] by the US that's the verdict of a
[01:00:50] a UN panel investigating two deadly deadly strikes in Iran this February.
[01:00:54] February. The US rejects that report
[01:00:57] report and Canada's Prime Minister Minister hails its