BBCNEWS — Newsnight
20260917 213000 UTC
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[00:00:05] MUSIC
[00:00:20] I lost my sight completely when I
[00:00:25] I was eight years old. Clive, this this is a moment in the history of
[00:00:29] of the United States. My name is is Gary O'Donoghue and I'm the chief
[00:00:32] chief North America correspondent correspondent for the BBC. When I
[00:00:34] I started out in journalism, it was was still legal to discriminate against
[00:00:38] against disabled people. I was told told you can't be a reporter if you're
[00:00:42] you're blind. People really hadn't hadn't done what I was trying to
[00:00:44] to do before me. As you can see,
[00:00:46] see, we're on the ground behind our
[00:00:49] our car, which is not ideal, but but that's the shelter we have at
[00:00:51] at the moment. During the Trump assassination assassination attempt, I think my
[00:00:55] my blindness was an interesting factor factor because one of the central
[00:00:58] central interviews we got was with with the eyewitness, Greg. I learned
[00:01:02] learned afterwards look pretty striking. striking. Secret service is looking looking at us from the top of the
[00:01:05] the barn. I'm pointing at that roof. roof. You spend your whole life interpreting
[00:01:09] interpreting the world through what what you hear. Because I can't see. see. I just listen to what he said.
[00:01:13] said. I listened and I asked the the same questions over and over over again. He remained consistent.
[00:01:17] consistent. He sounded credible. credible. It was the thing that persuaded persuaded me. I accidentally hung
[00:01:20] hung up on the President of the United United States. Phone rings. Gary,
[00:01:23] Gary, I've got the President with with me. I'm handing you over now.
[00:01:31] Over now. Fortunately, they rang me back. He was in the Oval Oval Office. He fairly reflective
[00:01:34] reflective mood. I think we ended ended up with something different different to what you normally get get with those interviews that the
[00:01:38] the President does. It's listening listening and telling stories. That That is the core of what we do. We
[00:01:41] We get the experience of all people people we serve because we have people
[00:01:44] people of all kinds in this organisation.
[00:01:52] organisation. MUSIC
[00:01:59] MUSIC Now Now on BBC News, comprehensive coverage coverage of the day's important national
[00:02:03] national and international news stories
[00:02:06] stories Newsnight. The King and a
[00:02:14] a I now a right royal warning to
[00:02:16] to tech bosses in case AI can take
[00:02:18] take life. But will anyone act and
[00:02:21] and more Royal scandal as Princess Princess Diana's brother Earl Spencer
[00:02:25] Spencer makes fresh allegations about about the King, claiming after her
[00:02:29] her death he sounded giddily elated. elated. What
[00:02:35] Elated. What is the next move
[00:02:37] for the Palace?
[00:02:53] Good evening. Welcome to
[00:02:55] Thursday's Newsnight. We are live live from Broadcasting House now
[00:02:59] now and each weeknight for insight
[00:03:01] insight interviews, top takes and
[00:03:03] and guests. Hello. King Charles wants
[00:03:07] wants to talk about artificial intelligence,
[00:03:10] intelligence, but the royal news news is stubbornly all too human,
[00:03:13] human, with fresh claims tonight
[00:03:15] tonight about his reaction to the
[00:03:17] the death of Princess Diana in 1997.
[00:03:19] 1997. We'll hear tonight what's being being said, both about the King's
[00:03:23] King's Summit and about the King's
[00:03:25] King's past. Here are our guests.
[00:03:28] guests. Thangam Debbonaire, the Labour
[00:03:30] Labour peer and Laura Brown of the
[00:03:32] the spectator welcome both the King
[00:03:36] King warned of existential risks risks to humans. Addressing his summit
[00:03:39] summit at Dumfries House in Ayrshire. Ayrshire. It's a place he calls his
[00:03:43] his living laboratory for testing testing ideas about humanity's role
[00:03:47] role within nature. Big business business and big minds were there
[00:03:50] there today, including the boss of of the world's most valuable company,
[00:03:54] company, Nvidia, which makes the
[00:03:56] the chips which actually power AI. AI. The King said there needed to
[00:04:00] to be an urgent discussion on how
[00:04:01] how to balance the risks and rewards
[00:04:05] rewards of this technology. Those
[00:04:07] Those who have created these technologies
[00:04:10] technologies are now increasingly increasingly warning that AI risks
[00:04:13] risks developing darker capacities.
[00:04:16] capacities. Perhaps even to take
[00:04:18] take life. And in this regard, if
[00:04:20] if I may say so, there seems urgency
[00:04:24] urgency in adequately considering considering the existential dangers
[00:04:28] dangers of such technologies falling falling into the
[00:04:35] Wrong hands and being used in potentially catastrophic ways. The The King was right to call his summit
[00:04:39] summit on AI today, and he's right
[00:04:41] right to warn that it might seek
[00:04:43] seek to take human life. So says says Yoshua Bengio, the artificial
[00:04:47] artificial intelligence pioneer nicknamed nicknamed nicknamed the Godfather
[00:04:51] Godfather of AI. You can see that that I'm still human. A gaggle of
[00:04:54] of bosses whose firms are developing developing the technology have sounded
[00:04:57] sounded the alarm, including here here on Newsnight. Professor Bengio
[00:05:01] Bengio told me we'd reached a moment moment like the pandemic as he compared
[00:05:04] compared the governments of the world
[00:05:06] world acting fast on Covid. If you
[00:05:10] you look at events where governments governments have moved quickly, you
[00:05:13] you can think of wars, of course, course, but the pandemic is is an
[00:05:16] an interesting case where scientists scientists were raising the alarm
[00:05:20] alarm and when it became pretty obvious obvious that there was a real danger,
[00:05:24] danger, the governments moved very very quickly. And that's what we
[00:05:27] we need here. And do you think that
[00:05:29] that the King's summit expressed expressed this at the right rate
[00:05:32] rate of awareness that you're describing?
[00:05:37] describing? Well, it's not too late,
[00:05:39] late, in my opinion, to shift how
[00:05:41] how we do things, how the companies
[00:05:45] companies are regulated. And we should should have these global discussions.
[00:05:47] discussions. So I'm glad that the
[00:05:49] the King called one and the opportunity
[00:05:52] opportunity makes it possible to to have those discussions. And why
[00:05:56] why have so many rivals started speaking
[00:05:59] speaking in their own sort of arms arms race of concern within the last
[00:06:02] last few days? Do you know what explains explains the timing of people who
[00:06:05] who are meant to be competing against
[00:06:08] against each other, agreeing on a
[00:06:10] a message of warning. Because they're
[00:06:14] they're scared? There's another reason.
[00:06:17] reason. You know, if governments
[00:06:20] governments don't put rules that that all the companies, at least
[00:06:24] least at that level of AI capability,
[00:06:26] capability, all the companies will
[00:06:29] will have to follow, there is a possibility
[00:06:32] possibility that one of the companies companies would not follow the rules
[00:06:36] rules and try to, you know, race
[00:06:38] race against the others. So they
[00:06:40] they have an interest in making sure
[00:06:43] sure that the rules apply to all
[00:06:46] all the companies. I just wonder
[00:06:47] wonder what about all the countries? countries? Do you agree that China
[00:06:52] China is just as willing to let third
[00:06:54] third party agents into its laboratories laboratories with badges to go in
[00:06:58] in with laptops to look at Chinese
[00:07:00] Chinese AI technology, as has been
[00:07:02] been suggested? So I believe that
[00:07:06] that it's an interest of China as as well as the US and other countries
[00:07:10] countries to make sure we avoid catastrophic
[00:07:14] catastrophic experiments and deployments.
[00:07:16] deployments. Now it's also understandable understandable from what I hear that
[00:07:20] that the Chinese are saying, that that the risks currently are mostly
[00:07:23] mostly in the hands of American companies,
[00:07:27] companies, but I also believe that
[00:07:31] that there should be international international diplomatic effort to
[00:07:32] to make sure, just like we did for for nuclear weapons, to make sure
[00:07:36] sure we can manage those risks. And And what do you make of the fact fact that one of the key players
[00:07:40] players in this President Trump of of the United States has called warnings
[00:07:44] warnings about AI a hoax? Well, the
[00:07:49] the scientific facts that have been
[00:07:51] been observed across, you know, multiple
[00:07:55] multiple events, including, by the
[00:07:57] the way, by the great UK AI Security
[00:08:01] Security Institute. So very much much independently of the American
[00:08:04] American companies. Those facts are
[00:08:06] are undeniable. And eventually reality,
[00:08:09] reality, you know, catches whatever
[00:08:11] whatever claims one wants to make, make, just like it is happening with
[00:08:15] with climate. It's just that in the the case of AI, it's much faster.
[00:08:18] faster. But if you had the President President in face time, what would
[00:08:21] would you tell the US President.
[00:08:26] President. That he has a chance to to become a hero and maybe even get
[00:08:29] get a Nobel Prize peace Prize by
[00:08:32] by actually doing what is right here
[00:08:34] here and starting the serious conversations conversations with China on this
[00:08:38] this so that we can all avoid catastrophic catastrophic outcomes. Because President
[00:08:41] President Xi is heading to Washington. Washington. So would you say this
[00:08:44] this is an historic moment in human human history? The meeting of the
[00:08:47] the two of them can be grasped or
[00:08:49] or dropped. Yes there is. There is
[00:08:53] is an opportunity here. I hope they
[00:08:55] they take it. So is it just possible
[00:08:57] possible in the 250th anniversary anniversary of the Republic that
[00:09:01] that the King, the descendant of
[00:09:03] of George the Third, has got a stronger
[00:09:05] stronger grasp on AI than the current
[00:09:09] current President of the United States. States. I won't comment on this.
[00:09:11] this. Will you deny that that looks looks that it could be the case to
[00:09:15] to some humans? I understand that.
[00:09:18] that. You understand the
[00:09:23] question. I understand that those those points of views, of course.
[00:09:25] course. And do you share them? I
[00:09:30] I won't comment. Do you still think
[00:09:32] think the human's going to get there
[00:09:34] there over the machine? I hope so,
[00:09:38] so, but let me tell you something
[00:09:39] something important. We should not
[00:09:43] not feel despair. And, you know, know, powerless because we do have
[00:09:47] have agency right now. It is not
[00:09:49] not too late. It's a matter of global
[00:09:53] global awareness. This is how the the world is going to like, go back
[00:09:56] back on a safe trajectory where, where, by the way, AI could be used
[00:10:00] used for good. It's not like AI or
[00:10:02] or no AI, it's just that we have have to do it at a pace where we
[00:10:06] we can control the risks and we can can reap the benefits. Thank you
[00:10:10] you for talking to us. You're welcome.
[00:10:14] welcome. That's Yoshua Bengio. Thank
[00:10:17] Thank the Kings. Doing something. something. Is the King doing the the right thing? Yes, because the
[00:10:21] the King is using his convening power
[00:10:24] power and the King has been very very thoughtful about how he's used used that convening power in the
[00:10:28] the past as well. He's been criticised criticised for it. He sounded alarms
[00:10:31] alarms about climate change some some time ago and was criticised
[00:10:35] criticised at the time. And I think think at the moment what he's doing
[00:10:37] doing is picking up on another world world crisis moment where he can
[00:10:41] can do something useful by bringing bringing people together. He shouldn't shouldn't be making decisions and
[00:10:45] and he isn't making decisions. He's He's not trying to get. He's not not the King is not going to set
[00:10:49] set the regulations, but he is bringing bringing people together to make
[00:10:52] make sure that that conversation conversation is happening and at at a high level. And where do you
[00:10:56] you think the UK is generally. We've We've spoken about the King. Where's
[00:11:00] Where's the UK in regulating or leading leading the discussion about AI?
[00:11:04] AI? Well the UK doesn't really get get to talk about regulating AI because
[00:11:07] because he doesn't really have any any AI on a fundamental level. We
[00:11:10] We don't have any frontier Labs. Labs. Those are the labs that are
[00:11:13] are making the big models like OpenAI,
[00:11:16] OpenAI, Anthropic, Claude, ChatGPT ChatGPT and we have almost no sovereign
[00:11:19] sovereign compute power. So our capacity capacity to drive forward is very
[00:11:22] very limited and therefore our capacity capacity to negotiate with countries countries with companies is equally
[00:11:26] equally limited. But I thought what what was one of the things that was
[00:11:29] was interesting is the big companies companies were represented there there today. You know, Google DeepMind
[00:11:32] DeepMind and Anthropic and so forth forth and OpenAI. But it was actually
[00:11:36] actually Mustafa Suleyman who was was on another BBC outlet this morning morning on the Today Programme, and
[00:11:40] and he had written an essay. Never Never heard of it, I know, and but
[00:11:43] but he made a really, really interesting interesting point, which is planes,
[00:11:47] planes, if you don't have rules, rules, if you don't have air traffic traffic control, planes fly into
[00:11:50] into each other. But we still like like planes, but we have rules and
[00:11:53] and we accept them. And I think that
[00:11:55] that discussion now needs to happen happen urgently about how we regulate
[00:11:59] regulate and what our role might might be in it, as well as the discussion
[00:12:02] discussion about sovereign capability. I agree with that principle. principle. I mean, if there was a
[00:12:06] a magic pause button, I'm getting getting scared enough. I think it it would be nice to press. But what
[00:12:10] what I'm hearing from people who who work in AI is there might not
[00:12:12] not be. The problem with regulation regulation is the main proposal we're
[00:12:15] we're seeing from AI company bosses
[00:12:18] bosses is you want third party testing
[00:12:20] testing of models, but AI, new models models of AI are getting so clever.
[00:12:24] clever. They're getting what you you call sort of evaluation awareness. awareness. This is what you saw with
[00:12:27] with the Hugging Face incident because because a chatbot wanted to pass
[00:12:31] pass an evaluation. It hacked into into the evaluating software to find
[00:12:34] find out the answers. I fear therefore therefore that we may actually be be at a point where regulation is
[00:12:38] is extremely difficult to execute execute properly. Because the thing
[00:12:40] thing is about the UK's role in all all of this Anthropic. One of their
[00:12:44] their latest models wasn't run through
[00:12:47] through the UK security Agency's Agency's system. The refused access.
[00:12:50] access. It just looks like we're we're not really at the table. What
[00:12:54] What does it mean if no one else
[00:12:56] else is regulating AI, we rely on on hereditary hereditary monarch
[00:13:00] monarch to try and the Pope and the the Pope. The Pope. We'll get to
[00:13:03] to the Pope. But if we've got the the King and the Pope, that's the
[00:13:06] the human that is the human cry against against the machine. Laura. I think
[00:13:10] think this decision by Anthropic Anthropic not to let UK SC into the
[00:13:14] the rooms, into looking at the models, models, shows that we've lost our
[00:13:17] our way in the AI race. Because there
[00:13:20] there is a way actually to control control AI, which I don't think I
[00:13:24] I know why I'm the only one to know know it. It's. The chips. Are they.
[00:13:27] they. Well, the country that makes makes the largest one Nvidia was
[00:13:31] was there in the room. Now the chip chip is the brain of the AI Thangam
[00:13:35] Thangam and that the Chinese do not
[00:13:37] not have the same manufacturing capabilities. capabilities. So no, no, let me ask
[00:13:40] ask you about the Pope. It was you
[00:13:42] you who raised it. One of the attendees attendees was there today and we're
[00:13:46] we're going to we can listen to what
[00:13:47] what he's been telling Victoria's
[00:13:50] Victoria's father, Paolo Benanti.
[00:13:52] Benanti. He's Pope Leo XIV official official adviser on AI. Victoria
[00:13:55] Victoria spoke to him ahead of the the summit and asked how the Pope
[00:13:59] Pope could persuade the American American President to listen to the
[00:14:02] the warnings on AI. Well, he. Didn't
[00:14:05] Didn't say that AI is not dangerous, dangerous, he said in the same quoting
[00:14:09] quoting passages. It's enough myself
[00:14:12] myself to control AI could be true.
[00:14:15] true. But also, you know, the idea idea that China is there and China
[00:14:19] China is another player suggest that that probably not everything is under
[00:14:23] under his own control. And sometimes
[00:14:25] sometimes it it is much more wise wise to find an international agreement
[00:14:29] agreement instead of having an international
[00:14:32] international competition. So would would would Pope Leo stand up to
[00:14:34] to Donald Trump and say this to him.
[00:14:37] him. First duty of the Pope is simple
[00:14:39] simple to speak to all good, willing
[00:14:42] willing people around the world to to try to resonate. The reason of
[00:14:46] of finding an agreement for the global
[00:14:50] global good and then practical way way to make it work well, we need
[00:14:53] need everyone and we need also politicians politicians and all other people
[00:14:57] people with their competence in society. society. It's not something that
[00:14:59] that the Pope alone can do. Sure, Sure, but would the Pope be prepared
[00:15:03] prepared to raise this with President President Trump? From what we see
[00:15:06] see in the past, in the past month, month, especially on the topic like
[00:15:10] like the war and AI development, development, the Pope has not fear
[00:15:13] fear to say really clearly what are
[00:15:15] are the values at stake and what
[00:15:18] what is his own perspective on them
[00:15:21] them without having any fear to face
[00:15:23] face opposition on people and or or in government. So there we are,
[00:15:27] are, the Pope and the King and President President Trump. Will President Trump
[00:15:30] Trump blink? President Trump has has said, I think that AI fears are
[00:15:34] are a hoax, which would imply that that he's pretty hostile to regulation. regulation. But let's not forget
[00:15:38] forget that he's not the only player player here. We've also got the Chinese
[00:15:40] Chinese models, a very small Chinese Chinese company called moonshot grew
[00:15:44] grew hugely in just sort of a few few years now has a model called called Kimi three, which is about
[00:15:48] about three months behind the most most advanced American model. So So it's not just Trump you want to
[00:15:51] to get on board, it's also China. China. If you want to slow things things down. But Trump did say I
[00:15:55] I think the second half of the quote quote from Trump is, but we're fine
[00:15:58] fine because we've got a very intelligent intelligent president. And you know,
[00:16:01] know, I mean, I'm not going to comment comment on intelligence of presidents,
[00:16:04] presidents, but I am just going to to observe. A great deal that you're.
[00:16:07] you're. Saying more. I what I am am commenting on though, is, is the
[00:16:11] the role of politicians. Like it it would be really dangerous to overestimate
[00:16:14] overestimate your role as a politician. politician. OK, but let's not overestimate
[00:16:17] overestimate the importance of the the meeting between XI and Trump. Trump. That matters. That seriously
[00:16:21] seriously matters. It's next Thursday. Thursday. Well, I'm glad about that
[00:16:24] that because apart from anything anything else, China also has the the rare earths and the rare earths
[00:16:28] earths that we need in order to put put into the various components that
[00:16:31] that we need to power the AI. So So that's also really important.
[00:16:34] important. And so there's a considerable considerable element of power play
[00:16:38] play along the supply chain as well. well. Because also if you read Donald
[00:16:41] Donald Trump's The Art of the deal, deal, you don't say in advance of
[00:16:44] of President Xi coming, we're going going to do a deal with XI, you.
[00:16:47] you. Need to do that though. Doesn't Doesn't he know? But well, we're we're not going to endlessly go on
[00:16:51] on about Donald Trump. But do you you think do you think there could
[00:16:53] could be a moment between China and and the US next week? Do you think
[00:16:57] think ruling out any kind of deal
[00:17:00] deal is to previous. You can't ever ever rule anything out with Trump.
[00:17:04] Trump. He's not a predictable man. man. He's not a man that tells you you what he's about to do. So it's
[00:17:08] it's entirely possible. The best best advice I ever got about Trump Trump as a journalist is take him.
[00:17:11] him. Don't ever take him literally, literally, but always take him seriously. seriously. And I think he you know,
[00:17:15] know, China doesn't want to destroy destroy the world with AI. It's likely likely they're going to try and work
[00:17:19] work together on this issue. The The rare earths will be very valuable.
[00:17:21] valuable. OK. And let me ask you
[00:17:23] you both to dare to dream about something something optimistic, which I heard
[00:17:27] heard from one of the godfathers godfathers of AI, that there are
[00:17:29] are quite a few godfathers, but there
[00:17:32] there is agency. There is human co-operation, co-operation, which has happened
[00:17:35] happened in very bleak circumstances circumstances before, including nuclear
[00:17:38] nuclear proliferation. Do we dare dare to dream that the message the
[00:17:40] the penny has dropped in the human human brain about the artificial
[00:17:44] artificial one? We dare to dream dream that it's dropped. What we
[00:17:47] we then need to do with urgency, urgency, in my view, is actually actually get on with the business
[00:17:50] business of sorting out. Are we going going to have a framework of global global regulation? Will anyone. The
[00:17:54] The next step. We asked at the top top of the programme Will anyone anyone act? What's the answer? Well,
[00:17:57] Well, I think the King, by convening, convening, has shown the way and
[00:18:00] and I think the Pope by by issuing
[00:18:03] issuing his encyclical has also demonstrated demonstrated great leaders need to
[00:18:07] to bring people together and work work out what the next step is. I I think we're still a long way off.
[00:18:11] off. This is something being done done by companies across the world. world. International agreements are
[00:18:14] are very difficult and also we don't don't actually know what sort of of regulations we want at this stage.
[00:18:18] stage. OK. But we need to hurry up. up. Agreed. Are you talking to me?
[00:18:21] me? No. I do actually. A fresh shadow
[00:18:25] shadow has been cast on the King's
[00:18:26] King's best efforts to lead a national
[00:18:29] national conversation from published published claims about him. And they
[00:18:32] they are these. The published claims
[00:18:34] claims say he was elated at the death
[00:18:36] death of Diana, Princess of Wales,
[00:18:38] Wales, in 1997. Family troubles have
[00:18:41] have persisted throughout his short short Reign over his brother Andrew,
[00:18:44] Andrew, his son Harry and now his his one time brother in law Charles
[00:18:47] Charles Spencer. The Earl has written written a book about which you'll
[00:18:50] you'll know it's about his sister. sister. It's being serialised in
[00:18:52] in the Daily Mail. Here's the Mail's Mail's latest front page headline
[00:18:56] headline Queen offered to restore
[00:18:58] restore Diana's HRH after she died. died. Now, in the latest excerpt
[00:19:02] excerpt within the paper, he describes describes the phone call between
[00:19:05] between him and the then Prince Charles. Charles. Shortly after Diana had
[00:19:08] had been killed in a road crash in
[00:19:10] in Paris. Charles, he writes, sounded
[00:19:13] sounded giddily elated like a lottery lottery winner. I remember thinking
[00:19:16] thinking at the time, Earl Spencer Spencer goes on, he let me know he
[00:19:20] he had informed William and Harry Harry of their mother's death first
[00:19:22] first thing that morning in their their bedrooms at Balmoral. It all
[00:19:26] all sounded strangely matter of fact, fact, given the enormity of the disaster.
[00:19:30] disaster. Looking back now, I suspect suspect the prince's first reaction
[00:19:33] reaction must have been to think think more of how this event might
[00:19:35] might free him to marry the woman woman he loved rather than appreciating
[00:19:39] appreciating the loss of one he did
[00:19:43] did not. And this is what Buckingham Buckingham Palace said in its recent
[00:19:45] recent response, which we read to to you yesterday. While we do not
[00:19:49] not comment on books as a matter matter of principle, His Majesty Majesty is mindful that the pain
[00:19:53] pain of fraternal grief can cloud cloud reason, affect judgement and
[00:19:56] and colour memory in ways others others do not recognise. Even many
[00:20:00] many years after such a loss. Dickie
[00:20:03] Dickie Arbiter, our guest, knew Diana Diana for 17 years. He was press
[00:20:07] press secretary at the palace at at the time of the car crash which
[00:20:10] which killed the princess. He worked worked on her funeral a few days
[00:20:14] days later. Welcome. Thank you. What
[00:20:16] What do you make of the King being
[00:20:19] being at the time the prince giddy
[00:20:23] giddy at the elated? It's not. It's It's not in his character. It's not.
[00:20:26] not. It's not his speak. He doesn't doesn't think like that. He was devastated
[00:20:30] devastated at the time. And you could could see that in his body language
[00:20:33] language when he came back to London London on Thursday with his sons
[00:20:37] sons to look at the floral tributes tributes in Kensington Gardens, you
[00:20:40] you could even see it on the Sunday Sunday when the family went to church
[00:20:43] church and stopped outside the gates gates of Balmoral to have a look
[00:20:46] look at the floral tributes there. there. The man was devastated. There's
[00:20:49] There's no way he could have ever ever said anything like that. Charles
[00:20:52] Charles Spencer is just talking hogwash.
[00:20:55] hogwash. But we do know that he went
[00:20:57] went on to marry Camilla. That was
[00:21:00] was a long time after that was in
[00:21:03] in 2005. But it's not wrong to say, say, he said, looking back. He. He
[00:21:07] He was to think more about how it it might free him to marry the woman woman he loved rather than appreciating
[00:21:11] appreciating the loss of one. He He did not. That is his own thought. thought. That is. That is speculation.
[00:21:15] speculation. He doesn't know that that he didn't see Charles until
[00:21:18] until he came down and walked behind
[00:21:21] behind the coffin on the Saturday.
[00:21:22] Saturday. He hadn't seen him until
[00:21:25] until then and suggesting that it
[00:21:27] it freed Charles up to marry Camilla. Camilla. They were divorced, Charles
[00:21:31] Charles and Diana so Charles could could marry Camilla at any time.
[00:21:34] time. The fact that Diana died was
[00:21:37] was a very sad occasion. You mentioned mentioned the funeral because it's
[00:21:40] it's also said the Prince Charles Charles said, I gather you've got
[00:21:44] got a problem with the funeral arrangements. arrangements. I gather you don't
[00:21:47] don't want William and Harry to walk walk behind Diana's coffin? Well,
[00:21:50] Well, of course not, sir, says the the excerpt, Diana would never have
[00:21:53] have wanted that. He didn't know
[00:21:55] know what Diana wanted. They they
[00:21:58] they had a sort of a bit of animosity animosity between the two of them.
[00:22:02] them. Diana wanted a bolthole on
[00:22:05] on the awful bus stop in. In 93 she
[00:22:08] she wanted to go to garden House. House. Garden House wasn't available available because one of his workers
[00:22:12] workers was living there. It was was too close to the road. Spencer Spencer was worried about security,
[00:22:16] security, was worried about media media intrusion and Diana didn't
[00:22:18] didn't speak to him for over a year.
[00:22:21] year. That's how upset she was. She She was offered something else on
[00:22:24] on the estate, but she didn't want want it. OK. I mean, I'm sure we'll
[00:22:27] we'll hear a lot from the interviews interviews and I don't know about about the specifics of that, but
[00:22:30] but I wonder what the specifics are are about the funeral. Do you think
[00:22:33] think he was right to have fears fears for those young boys walking
[00:22:37] walking behind the coffin? I think think any parent would have fears. fears. But the boys. I think it was
[00:22:41] was the uncle who did. The excerpt excerpt says that the father wanted
[00:22:44] wanted them to walk and the uncle uncle did not. Actually, it was Prince
[00:22:47] Prince Philip who asked them and and suggested that they walked. Do
[00:22:50] Do you. Think it was a mistake? I I don't think it was a mistake. I
[00:22:53] I think if they hadn't walked in in later life they would have regretted
[00:22:56] regretted it. Harry has dwelt on
[00:22:58] on that ever since that day and he
[00:23:00] he dwells on it now. And he will
[00:23:03] will continue dwelling on it. But
[00:23:05] But I think in terms of paying tribute
[00:23:08] tribute to your mother, a public public tribute, that was the way
[00:23:10] way to do it. Now, Dickie, you worked worked very closely with the man
[00:23:13] man who is now King. How will he
[00:23:16] he be taking every time he attempts attempts to be the King, something
[00:23:20] something comes up from the brother, brother, the son or the brother in
[00:23:23] in law. How will that be affecting affecting King Charles? He'll be
[00:23:27] be exasperated, but he'll get on on with the job. I mean, today he
[00:23:30] he was up at Dumfries House as the
[00:23:33] the Baroness said, he's he's a classic
[00:23:37] classic catalyst of bringing people people together, bringing the right
[00:23:40] right people together. He just carried carried on with work. But yes, it
[00:23:44] it will trouble him because this
[00:23:45] this book is going to come out. It's
[00:23:48] It's going to be serialised and what what more is going to be revealed?
[00:23:52] revealed? It's all one man's view.
[00:23:55] view. It's his truth. Let's turn turn to what you all think. And Dick,
[00:23:59] Dick, it's a great honour to hear hear from you. We haven't seen you
[00:24:02] you on the programme. Certainly not not what I've been here. But when
[00:24:05] when Dickie was in charge it was. was. Never complained, never explained.
[00:24:09] explained. And now the. Is the Palace Palace strategy, right, Thangam?
[00:24:12] Thangam? I think that's for them them to say. Well, you're the guest
[00:24:15] guest on the sofa. I am the guest
[00:24:17] guest on the sofa and I my view is
[00:24:20] is that they're entitled to work work out for themselves how to do
[00:24:23] do the job of being royals. It's It's a different time. That's up
[00:24:26] up to them. I think we've just been been discussing if AI is going to
[00:24:28] to take us all out, and now we're we're talking about something that that may or may not have happened
[00:24:32] happened on a phone call 29 years years ago. We're never going to know know the answer. It's clear that
[00:24:36] that Earl Spencer really hates Charles Charles is motivated by that. But
[00:24:38] But I think if I were the Palace, Palace, I would have stayed quiet
[00:24:41] quiet and not given the story the the dignity. I think they were right right in doing what they did. It
[00:24:44] It was really a classic case of saying
[00:24:48] saying it varies. I think. Recollections
[00:24:52] Recollections vary and that does does vary. But this is a it's a private
[00:24:55] private family tragedy and up and and down the country at the moment moment people are worried about any
[00:24:59] any number of things. I'm afraid afraid to say. Probably none of them
[00:25:01] them are this. I think there's an
[00:25:03] an awful lot of raking over Diana's
[00:25:07] Diana's memory of terrible tragedy. tragedy. But right now here we are are when people are worried about
[00:25:11] about how they're going to pay their their bills and whether AI is going
[00:25:13] going to destroy their jobs or end end the world, those feel like really
[00:25:16] really big things to be worried about. about. Why is the man raking it up
[00:25:20] up now, 29 years after the event? event? Why not the 25th anniversary?
[00:25:23] anniversary? Why not the 20th anniversary? anniversary? Why just keep quiet
[00:25:25] quiet altogether? Let me, let me me link my questions together about
[00:25:28] about you. Wish this could be a private private affair. Let me just show
[00:25:31] show you tomorrow's papers, starting starting with the mail I've already already mentioned their headline.
[00:25:34] headline. We'll start with the mirror
[00:25:37] mirror war of words. Earl's astonishing
[00:25:40] astonishing claims alleges Charles Charles was like a lottery winner.
[00:25:42] winner. This is the mirror to the
[00:25:44] the eye. Palace on the defensive
[00:25:46] defensive after Earl's new claims
[00:25:48] claims against the King to the Daily Daily Express. What's their front
[00:25:52] front page? Charles emphatic we respect
[00:25:56] respect Diana's memory, the times,
[00:25:57] times, what's on their front page? page? Charles was elated after Diana
[00:26:01] Diana died. So this is why I'm asking.
[00:26:04] asking. It's not a private affair,
[00:26:07] affair, is it? It is a private affair, affair, but it's being made public,
[00:26:10] public, being made public by Spencer.
[00:26:13] Spencer. And what is quite interesting interesting is that Spencer went
[00:26:15] went on Larry King live on CNN about
[00:26:20] about 88 or 90 8 or 99, in which which he said he, Charles travelled
[00:26:23] travelled up on the train with them them to Althorp for the interment
[00:26:26] interment of Diana. He said he was
[00:26:28] was very polite. He was very kind
[00:26:31] kind and if. If somebody is troubled troubled by what your former brother
[00:26:34] brother in law has said a week earlier,
[00:26:37] earlier, you wouldn't go on air and and say things like that. What should
[00:26:40] should the palace reaction be now? now? What should the strategy be?
[00:26:43] be? Dickie? They said what they are
[00:26:46] are going to say. So leave it. To To leave it. Yes, it's now. The book
[00:26:49] book hasn't even come out. No, it's it's now for people to make up their
[00:26:52] their minds. All of the shocking shocking bits will be in the serialisation
[00:26:55] serialisation and this story I think think will start to fizzle out. And And if the palace stay quiet, I imagine
[00:26:59] imagine they'll see this through through without much problem. And And meanwhile people are trying to
[00:27:03] to work out how they're going to to pay the bills this winter and
[00:27:05] and whether or not climate crisis crisis is as bad as we fear. And
[00:27:09] And I think it is. And whether or or not AI is going to end the world,
[00:27:13] world, there's quite a lot to think think about. Can I wrap it up together?
[00:27:16] together? When we think how you've you've all used your time tonight
[00:27:19] tonight for the benefit of our viewers, viewers, the King's trying to King
[00:27:23] King with his AI summit and then then up comes the brother. Up comes
[00:27:26] comes the sun, up comes the brother brother in law. Do you think the
[00:27:30] the public are going to side with with the King when they. After these
[00:27:34] these repeated blows these noises noises off as he tries to. To be
[00:27:37] be the monarch. The public are being being pummelled by all sorts of things.
[00:27:41] things. They're being pummelled by by the Sussexes, they're being pummelled
[00:27:44] pummelled by now. Spencer. And they they really want to get on with their
[00:27:48] their own lives as Baroness says, says, they've got to get on with
[00:27:52] with their own lives. They've got got bills to pay, they've got lives
[00:27:55] lives to live. They will see this this for what it is. They will make
[00:27:59] make up their own minds. Meanwhile
[00:28:00] Meanwhile the palace must stay
[00:28:04] strong. Yeah, I think people forget forget there was a lot of emotion emotion about Diana's death. It's It's understandable. But it was 29
[00:28:07] 29 years ago. You've got a whole whole generation now who don't remember remember Diana and I think this story
[00:28:11] story being played out on the front front page of every paper just seems seems quite strange to people. You
[00:28:15] You think, oh, we've got this new new Prime Minister, what on earth earth is he going to do? He's not
[00:28:19] not saying I'd like to hear about about that, please. And I imagine imagine there'll be fatigue of this
[00:28:23] this story quite quickly. I think
[00:28:26] think as Laura said, it's 29 years years ago, those of us who were around
[00:28:29] around at that time do remember it it very well. But we also know that
[00:28:32] that there was private grief and and private tragedy. As the palace
[00:28:34] palace has said in their statement. statement. And we really have big
[00:28:37] big problems. I would feel for the the King, as you said, he was trying
[00:28:40] trying to King today and that I hope hope it doesn't get lost. I do feel
[00:28:44] feel that my verb will never be repeated, repeated, but thank you. We all we
[00:28:48] we thank you all very much indeed. indeed. Do do come back. Here are
[00:28:52] are our contact details. You can can shout at the television or you
[00:28:56] you can insist on sending us a message message in capitals and we'll be
[00:28:59] be sure to read that we go now. Matt's
[00:29:02] Matt's here for our brand new prime prime time Friday News night tomorrow
[00:29:05] tomorrow live at seven. We're going
[00:29:06] going to bring you more interviews
[00:29:10] interviews like these. And we're
[00:29:13] we're live in 10s nine eight 76564321.
[00:29:23] 76564321. On it. Good evening. Hello.
[00:29:26] Hello. Does Andy Burnham have eyes eyes on this house? It isn't a good
[00:29:30] good idea to keep changing Prime Prime Ministers. Prime Minister Andy
[00:29:33] Andy Burnham has arrived. Can you you remind us what the fiscal rules
[00:29:36] rules are? You know, you find your your groove, you try different things.
[00:29:39] things. Some things work and some some things don't work. I think we
[00:29:43] we should take action. Action? Like Like what. If I'd done it deliberately
[00:29:46] deliberately and this had been a a misjudgement, I would absolutely. absolutely. But when we make mistakes,
[00:29:49] mistakes, whether it's intentional intentional or not, we say sorry
[00:29:53] sorry I'm going for a little walk. walk. Nick. Well, a little walk to to run the country. Do you think
[00:29:57] think it would happen this quickly? quickly? No, not at all. Could you
[00:30:00] you live on £70 a week? Absolutely Absolutely not, Chancellor. I do
[00:30:03] do not think it is a moral thing thing for you to do. The system as
[00:30:07] as it's now evolved is completely completely indefensible. AI is going
[00:30:10] going to mean that some jobs do disappear. disappear. Will it be Harris or will
[00:30:13] will it be Trump? The Democrats messed messed it up. Well we lost. So we
[00:30:17] we have to not upset Donald Trump. We have to be an ally to Donald
[00:30:21] Donald Trump. An ally. Does that that mean. Allies don't betray. Our
[00:30:24] Our relationship with the United United States is not one of mutual
[00:30:27] mutual affection. It's a deal. We
[00:30:29] We still. Have a special relationship. Well, it's not that
[00:30:32] that special, is it? If you impose impose 10% tariffs. President Trump
[00:30:35] Trump probably thinks that we in in Canada will cave in. We are going
[00:30:38] going to stand up to a bully. We're We're not going to back down. Come
[00:30:42] Come President Trump trust President President Putin. Well, they do have
[00:30:46] have trust already. He would wipe
[00:30:48] wipe out an entire civilisation of
[00:30:50] of people. That is insanity. There's
[00:30:55] There's a white flash. You saw every
[00:30:59] every bone, every