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[00:00:01] MUSIC
[00:00:13] Live from London. This is BBC
[00:00:16] News. German Chancellor Friedrich Friedrich Merz is facing growing
[00:00:19] growing political pressure as local local elections have taken place
[00:00:22] place in two German states. The polls polls have just closed. We'll bring
[00:00:26] bring you the first exit polls shortly
[00:00:29] shortly Earl Spencer tells the BBC, BBC, writing his book about his sister,
[00:00:33] sister, the late Princess Diana was was his duty as an eyewitness to
[00:00:36] to history. He's defended claims
[00:00:37] claims he's made about King Charles.
[00:00:41] Charles. I'm reporting every word word in this book. I report exactly
[00:00:44] exactly as I saw it and felt it at
[00:00:46] at the time, and I was surprised
[00:00:49] surprised at the giddiness of his his tone. That's what I'm recording
[00:00:52] recording there. At least two people people are killed in the Moscow region
[00:00:56] region after a massive Ukrainian Ukrainian drone attack overnight. overnight. Russia says it's an attempt
[00:00:59] attempt to disrupt the country's country's parliamentary elections.
[00:01:03] elections. Musician Ed Sheeran's Sheeran's apologised to fans for for what he calls mistakes. It's
[00:01:06] It's as he performs for the first first time since one of his opening
[00:01:10] opening acts, Macklemore was dropped dropped for making pro-Palestinian
[00:01:14] pro-Palestinian remarks on stage. stage. This week. The criticism was was about something much more important
[00:01:18] important and I've had to take and and make difficult decisions and
[00:01:21] and I am making mistakes and I'm
[00:01:24] I'm so, so sorry.
[00:01:36] Hello, I'm Rajini Vaidyanathan. Polls have just closed in Germany
[00:01:39] Germany in two elections, which could
[00:01:41] could further weaken Chancellor Friedrich
[00:01:44] Friedrich Mertz's position. His Christian Christian Democratic Union, the CDU
[00:01:47] CDU party, is at risk of damaging
[00:01:50] damaging defeats. The two races are
[00:01:52] are as follows one in the capital,
[00:01:54] capital, Berlin, another in the Mecklenburg-Western
[00:01:58] Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania region. region. Chancellor Merkel has already already cancelled plans to attend
[00:02:01] attend the UN General Assembly in in New York later this week. It's
[00:02:04] It's a speculation grows about his
[00:02:07] his future. Will these latest elections
[00:02:09] elections come after the far right right Alternative fur Deutschland
[00:02:12] Deutschland party? AfD won a major
[00:02:15] major victory in the state of Saxony-Anhalt.
[00:02:17] Saxony-Anhalt. Two weeks ago, as
[00:02:19] as the CDU saw its vote halved. Then,
[00:02:23] Then, well, we have some of the early
[00:02:25] early exit poll results in already.
[00:02:28] already. I'm reading now that the
[00:02:30] the AfD is projected to win 37% of
[00:02:34] of the vote in Mecklenburg-Western
[00:02:38] Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania state
[00:02:39] state election. And the centre left
[00:02:43] left SPD party is projected to win
[00:02:48] win 35.5% there. And at the moment,
[00:02:52] moment, of course, we are still waiting waiting to hear what the exit polls
[00:02:55] polls for Berlin say. I'm joined
[00:02:58] joined now by author and broadcaster
[00:03:00] broadcaster John Kampfner, who joins joins us from Berlin. We're just
[00:03:03] just seeing some of the early exit exit polls coming in to us. And of
[00:03:06] of course, we're going to stay across
[00:03:09] across those. But this is potentially
[00:03:12] potentially a very damaging night
[00:03:14] night for Chancellor Merz. Good evening
[00:03:17] evening Regina. Yes it is. And the
[00:03:19] the Berlin exit polls are in as well.
[00:03:21] well. And exit polls in Germany have
[00:03:24] have a pretty good record plus or or minus a few percent. Either way
[00:03:28] way of being pretty accurate, as
[00:03:30] as you say for Chancellor. Merz.
[00:03:33] Merz. It's pretty disastrous. Evening.
[00:03:36] Evening. He may well just his party, party, his conservative Christian
[00:03:40] Christian Democrats may just scrape
[00:03:42] scrape in to the parliament in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern,
[00:03:45] Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, a small state state in East Germany, there is a
[00:03:48] a threshold of 5% you have to get, get, which was originally designed
[00:03:52] designed to keep extremists out. out. And now it may well keep out
[00:03:55] out the Conservative Party. And that that has never happened before. This
[00:03:59] This is its lowest result since the the formation of the Federal Republic
[00:04:03] Republic at the end of the Second
[00:04:04] Second World War. If he does go below
[00:04:07] below the 5%, then the knives will will really be out. And there are
[00:04:11] are a series of meetings this evening
[00:04:14] evening and tomorrow and into Tuesday
[00:04:17] Tuesday for his party and all the the parties. But overall, it must
[00:04:20] must be said that for the AfD you
[00:04:21] you say only one could say only 37%
[00:04:26] 37% compared to the 4344 it got two two weeks ago in Saxony-Anhalt. So
[00:04:29] So a good result for them. But the the Social Democrats have held up
[00:04:33] up pretty well, just being a little little bit under them. And they are
[00:04:36] are almost certainly going to run
[00:04:38] run the state in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern Mecklenburg-Vorpommern with some
[00:04:41] some of the other parties. And in
[00:04:43] in Berlin, the left wing party, a
[00:04:47] a sort of corbynite British Greens
[00:04:49] Greens type party has emerged on on top and they're likely to run
[00:04:53] run it with other left wing parties, parties, the Social Democrats and
[00:04:56] and the Greens. So a mixed bag, but
[00:04:58] but the one consistent point is pretty pretty awful for Chancellor Merkel.
[00:05:02] Merkel. Indeed, John, I mean on one one hand you've got a far left party
[00:05:06] party Die Linke as you were describing
[00:05:08] describing then predicted to do really
[00:05:11] really well. On the other hand, in
[00:05:13] in the other race that we're watching, watching, Mecklenburg, you've got
[00:05:16] got the far right predicted to do do really well. That's an interesting
[00:05:20] interesting picture, isn't it? Yes, Yes, but it's a mixed picture as
[00:05:23] as well because the Social Democrats Democrats are the sort of classic
[00:05:26] classic Labour Party type party which which has been written off pretty pretty much everywhere. It's the
[00:05:29] the junior partner in this unhappy unhappy government. And it used to
[00:05:33] to be a really important party and
[00:05:36] and it's haemorrhaging voters, working working class voters. It's its voter
[00:05:39] voter base. It's increasingly old,
[00:05:43] old, but it's getting it's done pretty pretty darned well in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern
[00:05:45] Mecklenburg-Vorpommern for appointment
[00:05:48] appointment to get 35, 36% of the the vote, according to these projections.
[00:05:52] projections. One always needs to to be a little bit cautious about
[00:05:54] about projections, and that's because because of a particular local regional
[00:05:58] regional leader there. And she has has done pretty well. Manuela Schwesig
[00:06:02] Schwesig that's a name that listeners
[00:06:04] listeners and viewers might hear hear about more in the future. She
[00:06:08] She could well emerge being their their candidate for chancellor next
[00:06:12] next time around. So it is mixed.
[00:06:14] mixed. The AfD continue to do well,
[00:06:17] well, but it isn't that great sort sort of panic stations that it was
[00:06:20] was two weeks ago in Saxony-Anhalt. Saxony-Anhalt. OK. John Kampfner,
[00:06:23] Kampfner, thank you very much for for the moment. Of course, we're we're continuing to digest those
[00:06:27] those exit polls as they come in in and as we continue to do that
[00:06:31] that digesting, let's go live to
[00:06:33] to our correspondent in Berlin, Jessica
[00:06:36] Jessica Parker. Jessica, we were were talking there about those two
[00:06:39] two very different results. Take Take us through your analysis of
[00:06:41] of what we know so far. Yeah. I mean,
[00:06:45] mean, just to say I'm at the kind kind of election night gathering
[00:06:49] gathering in Berlin for the conservative conservative CDU party Chancellor
[00:06:52] Chancellor Friedrich Mertz's party. party. And as you can probably hear,
[00:06:55] hear, the atmosphere is pretty flat
[00:06:58] flat as those initial projected results
[00:07:00] results were read out. There was was no cheering here. People are
[00:07:04] are just sort of digesting the result.
[00:07:05] result. But as we were just hearing.
[00:07:08] hearing. So according to a ZDF projection projection in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, the northeastern
[00:07:12] northeastern state where I've been been the last couple of days, CDU
[00:07:16] CDU hovering around the 5% mark, mark, which puts it in danger potentially
[00:07:19] potentially of not entering parliament. parliament. You have to get 5% or
[00:07:22] or over in order to enter the parliament. parliament. That would be catastrophic.
[00:07:26] catastrophic. But that's one exit exit poll at the moment with the
[00:07:30] the AfD apparently topping the poll
[00:07:31] poll just above the centre left SPD SPD in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern. So
[00:07:35] So a tight race there between the the AfD and the SPD. But it looks
[00:07:39] looks like the AfD might come out
[00:07:40] out on top. And then here in Berlin Berlin as has been expected, although
[00:07:44] although maybe by a wider margin margin than had been expected. According
[00:07:48] According to these initial projections, projections, the left Die Linke party
[00:07:51] party coming out ahead. So the CDU
[00:07:53] CDU quite possibly will lose power
[00:07:59] power here in Berlin. So at the moment, moment, according to these projections,
[00:08:02] projections, I think this is a poor poor outcome for Chancellor Friedrich
[00:08:05] Friedrich Mertz's party and is going going to feed further speculation
[00:08:08] speculation about whether he can can sustain his position. Indeed,
[00:08:12] Indeed, Jessica, I'm just looking looking at another detail from the
[00:08:14] the exit poll in Mecklenburg Pomerania, Pomerania, which says that the CDU
[00:08:18] CDU is projected to win 5.5%. There
[00:08:22] There was some speculation that if if his party did below 5%, then that
[00:08:26] that could be curtains for him. What
[00:08:28] What do you read into this? Yeah,
[00:08:31] Yeah, so I think I've seen a couple couple of different projections one
[00:08:35] one at around five, one at around around 5.5. So we'll have to wait wait for the final numbers to see
[00:08:39] see where the CDU has landed up. up. They will absolutely want to
[00:08:42] to be reaching that 5% margin in in order to enter the state parliament.
[00:08:45] parliament. It would be a record record catastrophic first if they they didn't manage that. They haven't
[00:08:49] haven't been traditionally strong strong in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, but they they don't want to be in single digits
[00:08:53] digits and indeed dropping out of of the state parliament altogether. altogether. So all eyes are going
[00:08:57] going to be now, I think, on how how those numbers break down as we
[00:09:00] we get the final results overnight
[00:09:03] overnight and into tomorrow. I've I've been in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern
[00:09:06] Mecklenburg-Vorpommern the last couple
[00:09:09] couple of days and look, Friedrich
[00:09:11] Friedrich Merz is a opinion, a popularity popularity ratings are low so you
[00:09:15] you wouldn't expect to find necessarily necessarily many fans of him there.
[00:09:18] there. Where I say the CDU hasn't hasn't traditionally been strong,
[00:09:21] strong, but the people I've spoken spoken to on different sides of the
[00:09:25] the political aisle, they've been been very critical of the Chancellor
[00:09:28] Chancellor criticisms that he has has failed to deliver on what he
[00:09:32] he said he would do, that he is arrogant.
[00:09:34] arrogant. That's a lot of the criticism
[00:09:38] criticism that he is out of touch. touch. There is a communication issue issue which people inside the CDU
[00:09:41] CDU admit to, and even Friedrich Friedrich Merz has said himself that
[00:09:43] that communication needs to improve. improve. I think his backers would
[00:09:47] would argue that this is a chancellor chancellor that has inherited a lot
[00:09:50] lot of difficult problems for Germany,
[00:09:52] Germany, a stuttering economy, fraught fraught debates over immigration
[00:09:56] immigration and there have been some some very difficult global headwinds
[00:10:00] headwinds as well. But I found in in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern a pretty
[00:10:03] pretty unforgiving mood in terms terms of what people think of Friedrich
[00:10:05] Friedrich Merz. And the question question now for his party is, do
[00:10:08] do they want to do something that that isn't really done in German
[00:10:12] German politics? Certainly extremely
[00:10:15] extremely rare, and consider trying trying to do a Kanzler Tauscher Chancellor
[00:10:18] Chancellor swap and bring in a new new leader in order to try and improve
[00:10:22] improve their fortunes. Now nobody nobody has come out in terms of a
[00:10:25] a prominent figure in the party to to actually challenge Friedrich Merz.
[00:10:29] Merz. And reportedly he's going to to be meeting or is meeting senior
[00:10:32] senior party figures tonight, presumably presumably to try and shore up his
[00:10:35] his position because he's vowed this this week that he's going to carry carry on. OK, Jessica Parker for
[00:10:39] for the moment, thank you very much. much. Two very different but very
[00:10:42] very significant races that we will will continue to watch here on BBC
[00:10:46] BBC News. Now let's get more on the
[00:10:49] the BBC. S exclusive interview with with Princess Diana's brother Earl
[00:10:52] Earl Spencer. The view is here in in the UK that full exchange has
[00:10:55] has now gone live on the BBC iPlayer. iPlayer. You can watch it now. What
[00:10:59] What Earl Spencer tells my colleague colleague Laura Kuenssberg he stands
[00:11:02] stands by his claims in his book, book, including his assertion that
[00:11:05] that on the night that Princess Diana
[00:11:07] Diana died, the then Prince Charles Charles sounded giddily elated. Well,
[00:11:10] Well, Laura, joining me here in the the studio a short while ago to talk
[00:11:13] talk about the key moments in her her interview. Buckingham Palace
[00:11:17] Palace is very strongly objected objected to how Earl Spencer has
[00:11:21] has presented those days around Princess
[00:11:23] Princess Diana's death. Back in 1997.
[00:11:26] 1997. And for the context, you have have to remember this extraordinary
[00:11:29] extraordinary event both men in shock, shock, in grief as the news was coming
[00:11:32] coming through in the early hours hours of the morning. And it's one
[00:11:35] one of the most explosive claims claims in this book that Charles
[00:11:38] Charles Spencer makes that Prince
[00:11:40] Prince Charles seemed to be pleased
[00:11:43] pleased about what had happened, happened, that he was also relieved,
[00:11:45] relieved, perhaps, that it meant meant he might be able to go on and
[00:11:49] and marry Camilla, who of course
[00:11:51] course now is Queen Camilla on the
[00:11:54] the throne alongside him. So it was was important in our interview really
[00:11:56] really to test out these claims and and really to say to Charles Spencer
[00:11:59] Spencer what was his evidence of
[00:12:01] of that? How what exactly did he
[00:12:04] he recall? And this is our exchange. exchange. I remember picking up the
[00:12:07] the telephone. I was upstairs in in my house in Cape Town, and he
[00:12:11] he was telling me how he had told
[00:12:14] told the boys, William and Harry Harry at Balmoral and broken the
[00:12:17] the news to them. And I. I felt,
[00:12:20] felt, as I say in the book, actually actually I felt there was a sort
[00:12:24] sort of giddy tone. I'd had a lot lot of calls that day from people
[00:12:27] people who cared, who were stunned
[00:12:29] stunned like we all were, and I just
[00:12:32] just felt there was a lightness in in his tone about Diana's death that
[00:12:36] that really jarred with me. You write
[00:12:39] write that he was giddily elated
[00:12:42] elated like a lottery winner. I mean, mean, you're suggesting he was somehow
[00:12:45] somehow pleased that his former wife
[00:12:48] wife was dead? Well, I'm reporting
[00:12:51] reporting every word in this book. book. I report exactly as I saw it
[00:12:54] it and felt it at the time. And I
[00:12:57] I was surprised at the giddiness giddiness of his tone. That's what
[00:13:01] what I'm recording there. It's an
[00:13:04] an incredibly damning thing to say, say, though, about his reaction to
[00:13:07] to the death of the mother of his his children. And you go on to write,
[00:13:11] write, I suspect the prince's reaction reaction must have been to think
[00:13:15] think more of how this event might might free him to marry the woman
[00:13:19] woman he loved, rather than appreciating appreciating the loss of the one
[00:13:22] one he did not. You're suggesting suggesting there in black and white
[00:13:26] white that the now King felt that
[00:13:29] that Diana's death was rather convenient convenient because he would be able
[00:13:33] able to marry Camilla. That is how
[00:13:35] how I felt at the time. From the
[00:13:38] the tone of his voice. So I've only only ever had two calls from him
[00:13:41] him and they were both around this this time. One was on the day of
[00:13:45] of Diana's death and one was a couple couple of days later. But are you
[00:13:48] you sure that's what he was thinking? thinking? I mean, I cannot. Be sure.
[00:13:52] sure. I'm saying that's what I assume
[00:13:55] assume from the tone is a possibility
[00:13:57] possibility and that's all I can
[00:14:00] can do. A very resolute Earl Spencer Spencer there, Laura. Even when you
[00:14:04] you pushed him on that. Of course
[00:14:07] course his book is also about his his sister and the loss. And that's
[00:14:10] that's something you also asked him him about, isn't it? Yes. I mean,
[00:14:14] mean, it's a strange thing in a sense. sense. Here you have these two families,
[00:14:17] families, the Spencers and the Windsors, Windsors, locked in a huge war of
[00:14:21] of words that has created headlines headlines right around the world.
[00:14:23] world. Yet when I sat down with Charles Charles Spencer and spoke to him him for half an hour or so about
[00:14:27] about everything that had happened happened and his memories of his his sister, it's also completely
[00:14:31] completely plain that he is still
[00:14:34] still first and foremost, however however angry the Palace is about.
[00:14:37] about. This book. A grieving brother
[00:14:40] brother and this is what came across.
[00:14:43] across. How much do you miss
[00:14:49] her? Well, every day, you know, that's that's the thing with sibling loss
[00:14:51] loss you never get over it. Do you
[00:14:59] you think there may be a time where
[00:15:01] where you've used the phrase get
[00:15:04] get over, but reading the book and
[00:15:07] and given how this has all played
[00:15:09] played in public, there is a sense
[00:15:11] sense that somehow what happened happened to her has understandably
[00:15:15] understandably almost consumed you
[00:15:17] you at times. I have a very. Luckily
[00:15:21] Luckily I have a hugely diverse and and happy life. One of the reasons
[00:15:23] reasons I call this swan song actually actually is because it's my sign
[00:15:26] sign off. I have been Diana's brother.
[00:15:29] brother. This is my final take on
[00:15:32] on the situation and I have a wonderful,
[00:15:35] wonderful, happy life. Gorgeous children,
[00:15:38] children, fabulous wife and we live live this much more normal life than
[00:15:41] than this looks like. And that's
[00:15:43] that's my future. This is my swan
[00:15:45] swan song too. I'm not here to bang
[00:15:49] bang on about Diana. This is my final
[00:15:51] final word. Celebration of her. And
[00:15:55] And I will step off into the sunset
[00:15:57] sunset now and not be available for
[00:15:59] for comment. He talks about his speaking
[00:16:02] speaking out as being a celebration celebration of his late sister, but
[00:16:05] but of course Laura. He also talked
[00:16:07] talked a lot about the media scrutiny scrutiny that she faced. That's right.
[00:16:11] right. And this is very complicated complicated because Charles Spencer, Spencer, of course, you can tell
[00:16:14] tell there he wants to pay tribute tribute to his sister. He wants to
[00:16:17] to tell some of his happy memories memories and share them with the the world as well. He also wanted
[00:16:21] wanted to give his view on exactly exactly what the man who's now on on the Throne's behaviour was like
[00:16:25] like at the time, and that's been been strongly objected from the Palace.
[00:16:27] Palace. He also knows that there there is huge interest and focus
[00:16:31] focus on his nephews William and and Harry, who are locked in a dispute.
[00:16:34] dispute. Harry and Meghan, who were were at his country estate, Althorp,
[00:16:38] Althorp, over the summer, and Harry Harry and Meghan, of course, who
[00:16:40] who has been the subject of massive massive media attention. So one of
[00:16:43] of the other things I asked him is
[00:16:45] is whether he feared that there were
[00:16:48] were echoes of the press intrusion, intrusion, which he believes haunted
[00:16:51] haunted and harmed his sister in
[00:16:54] in terms of how Harry and Meghan Meghan were being treated right now,
[00:16:57] now, all these years later. Do you
[00:17:00] you fear there is somehow in an echo echo of what happened to Diana? You
[00:17:03] You know, Harry has said on many
[00:17:05] many occasions that he hasn't felt felt supported by the institution
[00:17:08] institution over the choices that that he's made with his life. I think think there's a perception in the
[00:17:12] the media that I'm on Harry's side.
[00:17:14] side. Well, I'm on my deceased sister's
[00:17:18] sister's son's side, both of them. them. And if either of them wanted
[00:17:20] wanted anything, then I'd be equally equally there for them. And I never
[00:17:24] never get involved in one camp or
[00:17:26] or the other except as a benign figure.
[00:17:28] figure. I hope. That's my role. Do
[00:17:32] Do you think Diana would identify identify with the attention, the
[00:17:36] the focus that has been put on them, them, and with Meghan, who said she
[00:17:39] she felt like she was the most trolled trolled person in the world. You You know, they were here during the
[00:17:43] the summer not so long ago. If you
[00:17:46] you look at an article in a tabloid
[00:17:49] tabloid about Diana or the couple couple that you were mentioning,
[00:17:53] mentioning, Harry and Meghan, you
[00:17:55] you know, it's they can be really, really, really unpleasant. And I
[00:17:59] I think it would be really beholden beholden on people to learn from
[00:18:02] from Diana's example. I'm not here here to speak for Harry and Meghan,
[00:18:05] Meghan, but for anyone who's being being destroyed in this way daily,
[00:18:09] daily, it must be such a cancerous
[00:18:12] cancerous influence in their life. life. I saw it with Diana, I saw saw Diana, I mentioned it in the
[00:18:16] the eulogy. Her tears of despair. despair. One of the problems with
[00:18:19] with Diana was she was very, very very sensitive to criticism. And
[00:18:23] And of course, I'm sure most of your your viewers now think, oh, she had
[00:18:27] had this splendid life and it was was all amazing. And she didn't. didn't. She was so privileged and
[00:18:30] and so perfect in so many ways, but
[00:18:32] but she was really brought low by by all that criticism. And yeah,
[00:18:36] yeah, I suppose it's a pity when
[00:18:38] when I see echoes of that now. Laura,
[00:18:41] Laura, as we've already discussed
[00:18:44] discussed in this interview, Buckingham Buckingham Palace have strongly denied
[00:18:47] denied many of the claims from Earl Earl Spencer, not least the one where
[00:18:51] where he said Princess Diana would would be soon forgotten. Shortly Shortly after her death she challenged
[00:18:54] challenged him on that. We did and and we should just also reiterate reiterate Buckingham Palace have
[00:18:58] have given a very strongly worded
[00:19:01] worded response to the claims that that emerged in the last few days.
[00:19:04] days. They said the King was mindful mindful that the pain of fraternal
[00:19:08] fraternal grief can cloud reason, reason, affect judgement and colour
[00:19:12] colour memory in ways others do not.
[00:19:14] not. Others don't recognise. Even
[00:19:16] Even many years after such a loss.
[00:19:19] loss. Now for context, it's incredibly incredibly unusual that Buckingham
[00:19:22] Buckingham Palace would issue a statement statement on something so charged
[00:19:25] charged that's very, very unusual unusual indeed. You can tell from
[00:19:29] from the tone also that they are
[00:19:31] are pushing back very, very hard
[00:19:33] hard on this. And also, as you would would expect, given the nature of
[00:19:36] of the claim, how controversial and and explosive it is that for Charles
[00:19:40] Charles Spencer to make in his book,
[00:19:42] book, I asked him if he had any evidence, evidence, if he told anyone else,
[00:19:45] else, if he'd made notes at the time time of what he claims. The then
[00:19:49] then Prince Charles said all those
[00:19:51] those years ago. He went ballistic
[00:19:53] ballistic would be the right term term and started really going for
[00:19:57] for my family as a whole about their
[00:19:59] their sense of duty not being adequate
[00:20:02] adequate enough and ranted for a a while. I have no idea how long,
[00:20:05] long, but it was a significant period period and I just listened. And then
[00:20:09] then he stopped and I thought, oh, oh, now now he's going to pull himself
[00:20:12] himself together and say something
[00:20:14] something more appropriate. And then
[00:20:16] then he said, we'll forget her soon
[00:20:19] soon enough. What went through your
[00:20:23] your mind? Well. I'm not sure I can can say exactly what went through
[00:20:26] through my mind, but I really was was so stunned. And I just after
[00:20:30] after a stunned silence, I said,
[00:20:32] said, I cannot believe you just said
[00:20:34] said that. And I hung up on him.
[00:20:40] him. You know that Buckingham Palace
[00:20:43] Palace has already said with a degree
[00:20:46] degree of fury. That that didn't
[00:20:50] didn't happen. Well, they haven't haven't actually, Laura, they've they've sort of smudged that one
[00:20:54] one haven't they? They've said that that recollections may vary. Well
[00:20:57] Well let me read you exactly what
[00:20:58] what the palace has said. They said
[00:21:02] said His Majesty is mindful that
[00:21:04] that the pain of fraternal grief
[00:21:07] grief can cloud reason affect judgement
[00:21:11] judgement and colour memory in ways
[00:21:14] ways others do not recognise. Even
[00:21:16] Even many years after such a loss,
[00:21:19] loss, the. King is plainly furious.
[00:21:23] furious. Buckingham Palace almost almost never issues any kind of statement.
[00:21:26] statement. Well, is he. Furious or or is he embarrassed? Because I can
[00:21:29] can tell you here and now those are are exactly the words he said. I've
[00:21:32] I've only ever had two calls on the the line with Prince Charles at any
[00:21:35] any stage of my life. I was hyper hyper alert to what he was saying.
[00:21:39] saying. And those are precisely the the words he said. And I promised
[00:21:42] promised that to you. Now, genuinely, genuinely, that is what he said.
[00:21:45] said. I don't hear him saying he
[00:21:47] he didn't say that. Did you write
[00:21:52] write it down? Did you keep a diary? diary? Do you have evidence that
[00:21:55] that that is what he said at the the time? Because to be fair, this
[00:21:59] this was a time of massive shock
[00:22:01] shock and emotion for both of you.
[00:22:04] you. I told friends and family straight straight away close friends and family
[00:22:08] family about what had been said because because it was so monstrous. Which
[00:22:11] Which Charles, with the public meant meant to believe. Are they to believe
[00:22:15] believe you or are they to believe
[00:22:18] believe the King, the head of state state of this country, who's giving
[00:22:21] giving the impression very forcefully
[00:22:25] forcefully that this didn't happen? happen? Who are we to believe? Well,
[00:22:28] Well, I'm telling the truth. A strong
[00:22:30] strong response there, Laura from from Earl Spencer. Just lastly, as
[00:22:34] as we wrap up this conversation, conversation, I just wondered what what it was like to do that interview
[00:22:38] interview because of course, some some really astonishing remarks have
[00:22:41] have come out of it. Slightly surreal,
[00:22:43] surreal, to be honest. I mean, this
[00:22:46] this is a family battle that has has been played out in public over
[00:22:49] over many, many, many years. And And if you like a contest for the
[00:22:53] the legacy of who's controlling the the legacy of the women who for a
[00:22:56] a long time was the most famous woman woman in the world, you know, not
[00:22:59] not just here in the UK where we're we're speaking in London, but around
[00:23:03] around the world, known everywhere
[00:23:04] everywhere for, of course, the sadness sadness around her, her and Prince
[00:23:08] Prince Charles's failed marriage, marriage, but also her campaigning,
[00:23:10] campaigning, her busting of conventions. conventions. And then of course,
[00:23:14] course, that terrible accident which
[00:23:15] which saw her lose her life. But
[00:23:18] But the timing of this interview interview also, which was just hours
[00:23:21] hours 12 or so hours after Buckingham Buckingham Palace had put its statement statement out, meant that rather
[00:23:24] rather than just being a conversation conversation about what Earl Spencer
[00:23:28] Spencer wanted to say, it was transformed transformed into a conversation about
[00:23:32] about integrity and truth and who
[00:23:34] who was telling the truth. And you you know, I've interviewed lots of
[00:23:37] of people over the years as you have have to, but to have a conversation
[00:23:40] conversation with someone who's questioning questioning the integrity of the
[00:23:43] the head of state is something that
[00:23:47] that is pretty unusual. And you can can watch the full interview, as
[00:23:50] as you say here in the UK on iPlayer, iPlayer, but there will be excerpts excerpts on YouTube and it'll be
[00:23:54] be available in other parts of the the world too. So yeah, it's a it's
[00:23:57] it's an important conversation. And And I think whatever you think of
[00:24:01] of either family here, the Spencers Spencers and Windsors have rivalries rivalries that go back for hundreds
[00:24:05] hundreds of years. You know, there's there's a lot of history here too.
[00:24:08] too. This is like it or not a public
[00:24:12] public conversation. And it is a
[00:24:15] a matter of historical record. Laura
[00:24:19] Laura Kuenssberg speaking to me in in the studio earlier and you can
[00:24:22] can watch her full interview with with Earl Spencer here on the BBC
[00:24:26] BBC News channel. We'll bring it
[00:24:27] it to you in a special programme
[00:24:30] programme just over 90 minutes from
[00:24:32] from now at 7pm BST in the UK. That
[00:24:35] That interview will also be aired
[00:24:37] aired at 6:30pm on BBC One. It's
[00:24:39] It's already now up on the BBC iPlayer
[00:24:43] iPlayer and on BBC Sounds, and there's there's more reflections and fallout fallout from the interview as well
[00:24:47] well on the BBC News website. We're
[00:24:50] We're just going to bring you an an update on those two elections
[00:24:54] elections we are watching in Germany.
[00:24:55] Germany. Those state elections, one one in Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania,
[00:24:59] Pomerania, the other one in Berlin. Berlin. Now the polls just closed
[00:25:03] closed about 25 minutes ago. The The exit polls indicate the following.
[00:25:07] following. There's two different different races. We'll start with with the one in Mecklenburg-Western
[00:25:11] Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania, where where it looks like the far right
[00:25:14] right Alternative for Germany. AfD AfD party is set to win the most
[00:25:18] most votes there. Meanwhile, in Berlin,
[00:25:21] Berlin, the Socialist Left party party has surged to first place.
[00:25:24] place. There. You can see the pictures
[00:25:27] pictures there of Berlin as supporters
[00:25:30] supporters of the Socialist Left
[00:25:32] Left Party are cheering as those those exit polls came in. Well, there's
[00:25:36] there's been a lot of pressure on
[00:25:37] on the Chancellor of Germany, Friedrich
[00:25:41] Friedrich Merz, and his CDU, Christian Christian Democratic Union party.
[00:25:44] party. He has been speaking, he said
[00:25:46] said the election result in Mecklenburg-Western
[00:25:50] Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania was was a disaster. He said he is ready ready to stay on as party leader
[00:25:54] leader and chancellor. Of course course there's been a lot of pressure
[00:25:56] pressure for him to quit and he says, says, I take responsibility because
[00:25:59] because I want to move the country country forward. Samantha Simmonds
[00:26:03] Simmonds is up next. We'll continue continue our
[00:27:35] of the week.
[00:29:55] means for you. Go online at bbc.com/business bbc.com/business to get the latest latest news wherever you are. Business
[00:29:59] Business on BBC News. Make the connection.
[00:30:07] connection. MUSIC
[00:30:08] MUSIC
[00:30:17] These are the latest headlines from BBC News. Exit polls in two
[00:30:21] two local elections in Germany show show big losses for Chancellor Merkel's
[00:30:25] Merkel's CDU party. Friedrich Merz Merz has described the results of
[00:30:28] of a state of those state elections
[00:30:30] elections as a disaster Earl Spencer
[00:30:33] Spencer tells the BBC. Writing his his book about his sister Princess
[00:30:37] Princess Diana was his duty as an an eyewitness to history. He's defended
[00:30:40] defended claims he's made about King King Charles. At least two people
[00:30:44] people are killed in the Moscow area area after a massive Ukrainian drone
[00:30:48] drone attack overnight. The mayor
[00:30:49] mayor of the city claims 450 drones drones were directed towards Moscow.
[00:30:53] Moscow. Russia says it's an attempt attempt to disrupt the country's
[00:30:56] country's parliamentary elections. elections. Ed Sheeran apologises
[00:30:59] apologises to fans for what he says says are mistakes. It's as he's performed
[00:31:02] performed for the first time since since one of his opening acts acts
[00:31:05] acts Macklemore, was dropped for for making pro-Palestinian remarks
[00:31:09] remarks on stage. We'll have more
[00:31:17] more on those stories we've mentioned mentioned in the headlines, but it's it's that time of the day where we
[00:31:21] we turn to the day's sport. Let's Let's go to Lizzie Greenwood-Hughes Greenwood-Hughes at the BBC Sports
[00:31:24] Sports Centre. Hello Rajini. We're We're starting with football and and an extraordinary game in the
[00:31:28] the Premier League. There were eight
[00:31:30] eight goals at Manchester City who who eventually beat Sunderland five
[00:31:34] five three, but it could have been been many more for both sides in
[00:31:37] in a thrilling game at the Etihad, Etihad, where defence apparently apparently wasn't a priority for
[00:31:41] for either team. 3-2 at half-time, half-time, including a goal from
[00:31:43] from Bryan Brobbey, who went on to to score a hat-trick for Sunderland.
[00:31:47] Sunderland. Antoine Semenyo also also scored twice for city and Erling
[00:31:50] Erling Haaland got their fifth and and final goal to complete the full
[00:31:54] full set of scoring against every every Premier League side that he
[00:31:57] he has faced some record for the the Norwegian and the result means
[00:32:00] means city are now three points clear
[00:32:02] clear at the top of the table before
[00:32:05] before the international break. First
[00:32:06] First of all, I feel very happy because
[00:32:09] because we won the game, but also also we found a way to win the game.
[00:32:13] game. We knew that, you know, we we didn't expect an easy game at
[00:32:17] at all. We knew that was a difficult
[00:32:19] difficult game. I think overall probably
[00:32:23] probably we made some mistakes, but
[00:32:25] but it's good because in this first
[00:32:27] first eight weeks we play seven official
[00:32:30] official games and they have been been all different and we learn a
[00:32:33] a lot. And Erling does get another another goal again, it's another
[00:32:36] another goal against a Premier League League team. Hadn't scored against against Sunderland before. People
[00:32:39] People were talking that statistic statistic weren't they? We knew he'd he'd score today didn't we? Yeah,
[00:32:43] Yeah, they mentioned me before the the game. I didn't know that. But
[00:32:45] But yeah, he scored. He had a few few more chances. But again happy
[00:32:49] happy because we won the game. With With just the one goal at Bournemouth
[00:32:53] Bournemouth where Andoni Iraola made made a winning return to his old
[00:32:56] old club with Liverpool. Alexander Alexander Isak was the only scorer
[00:32:58] scorer at the Vitality Stadium to to give Liverpool the narrow victory,
[00:33:02] victory, which means Bournemouth Bournemouth are still without a win
[00:33:04] win this season, whilst Liverpool Liverpool climb up to sixth. The
[00:33:08] The result is very good you know,
[00:33:10] know, because coming to this, this this stadium we know very well, it's
[00:33:14] it's very difficult. It's very difficult difficult to get the three points. points. We could feel it especially
[00:33:18] especially at the beginning of the the game, how intense they were.
[00:33:21] were. I think also at the end you you could feel they were a little
[00:33:24] little bit tired. And I think we
[00:33:25] we could finish the job. And the the other game. Leeds are still unbeaten
[00:33:30] unbeaten this season. They drew at at home to Crystal Palace and in
[00:33:32] in the late kick off Fulham against against Manchester United is goalless.
[00:33:35] goalless. They've just kicked off off the second half in the Scottish
[00:33:38] Scottish Premiership. Rangers beat beat Celtic now Moto GP and Pedro
[00:33:42] Pedro Acosta has won his first race race with victory at the Austrian
[00:33:46] Austrian Grand Prix. The Spaniard Spaniard crashed out while leading
[00:33:49] leading Saturday's sprint race but but recovered to get the win today
[00:33:51] today to claim his team's ktm's first
[00:33:54] first race victory in over four years.
[00:33:56] years. Seven time champion Marc Marquez
[00:33:59] Marquez could only finish fifth. fifth. Britain's Olympic gold medal
[00:34:02] medal winning eventer Tom McEwen McEwen has made history by becoming
[00:34:05] becoming the first rider to win both both competitions at the Blenheim Blenheim Palace. International Horse
[00:34:09] Horse Trials. McEwen finished first first and second in the prestigious
[00:34:11] prestigious false start, winning winning on the Fieldmaster despite
[00:34:14] despite knocking a pole down in the the final showjumping phase, while
[00:34:17] while earlier in the day he also also won the young horse class there.
[00:34:21] there. Now there's been a world record record at the World Road Running
[00:34:24] Running Championships. Agnes Ngetich
[00:34:27] Ngetich set the fastest recorded recorded time for a woman only half
[00:34:30] half marathon as she took gold in in Copenhagen. The Kenyan claimed
[00:34:34] claimed victory in one hour, five five minutes and 15 seconds as she
[00:34:37] she took a second off the previous previous record held by compatriot
[00:34:41] compatriot Peres Jepchirchir since
[00:34:43] since 2020. Now the former England England and Tottenham winger Andros
[00:34:47] Andros Townsend has had a lucky escape escape after being run over by a
[00:34:50] a pitch roller before a game in Thailand. Thailand. The 35-year-old, who now
[00:34:54] now plays for the Thai League One One side PT Prachuap, was struck
[00:34:58] struck during the warm-up and his his left leg briefly stuck under
[00:35:01] under the vehicle, which is used used to prepare the pitch before
[00:35:03] before their away match at Pattani. Pattani. Townsend somehow avoided
[00:35:06] avoided injury and came on later
[00:35:09] later as a substitute and that is is it for me for now. But as always,
[00:35:13] always, there's much more on the the BBC Sport website, including including the conclusion of the PGA
[00:35:17] PGA golf, which is there, as I say say on the BBC Sport website and
[00:35:20] and app. Goodness, Lizzie, that looked looked painful, didn't it? Thank
[00:35:22] Thank you very much for that update.
[00:35:25] update. Now the authorities in Moscow Moscow say at least two people have
[00:35:28] have been killed and six injured injured in a massive overnight Ukrainian
[00:35:32] Ukrainian drone attack on the city. city. Posting this footage on social
[00:35:35] social media this morning, Ukraine's Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelensky Zelensky confirmed that Kyiv had
[00:35:39] had hit a key Russian oil facility facility and a logistics site in
[00:35:43] in the region. The targets, he said, said, represented billions of dollars
[00:35:46] dollars that sustain the war machine. machine. Well, the mayor of Moscow Moscow said it was the largest drone
[00:35:49] drone attack on the Russian capital
[00:35:52] capital yet and that some 450 drones drones heading for the capital were
[00:35:55] were shot down. The Russian authorities authorities accused Ukraine of trying
[00:35:57] trying to disrupt the country's parliamentary parliamentary elections, which ends
[00:36:01] ends today, and claim more than six
[00:36:03] six 1600 drones have been repelled repelled since yesterday. Our Russia
[00:36:07] Russia editor, Steve Rosenberg, is is in Moscow and I've been asking
[00:36:09] asking him more about those attacks attacks and about the elections.
[00:36:13] elections. Well, first of all, the the reaction. No sense of surprise
[00:36:16] surprise here. More a kind of quiet quiet resignation. I think that after
[00:36:20] after more than four and a half years
[00:36:22] years of Russia's war on Ukraine, Ukraine, Muscovites have got used
[00:36:25] used to their city periodically becoming becoming a frontline. And many people,
[00:36:29] people, I think, had expected attacks attacks during the election. This This is one of the polling stations
[00:36:33] stations just behind me. But in the the centre. But earlier today we
[00:36:36] we were at a polling station very very close to the oil refinery that
[00:36:40] that got hit. One young voter told told me that he'd heard the explosions.
[00:36:43] explosions. He'd heard loud bangs.
[00:36:45] bangs. He said it was a bad situation. situation. I spoke to an older voter
[00:36:49] voter who said he wants peace, but
[00:36:51] but by peace he means Ukraine's defeat.
[00:36:54] defeat. As for the election, while while the whole process is tightly tightly controlled by the Kremlin
[00:36:58] Kremlin and I think Vladimir Putin Putin will want to use the election
[00:37:02] election and the results to be announced announced later, to try to show that
[00:37:05] that the whole country is behind
[00:37:07] behind the Kremlin, behind the war war in Ukraine, almost to give him
[00:37:11] him a mandate to continue with the
[00:37:13] the special military operation. That's
[00:37:15] That's our Russia editor, Steve Rosenberg.
[00:37:18] Rosenberg. Now to Pakistan and the
[00:37:20] the sister of Pakistan's jailed former
[00:37:22] former Prime Minister Imran Khan Khan has been reportedly arrested
[00:37:25] arrested in Lahore. A spokesman for
[00:37:27] for Imran Khan's PTI party says Aleema
[00:37:30] Aleema Khan was arrested at her home
[00:37:32] home on Sunday ahead of a planned planned party protest march, which
[00:37:35] which is due to take place next week. week. Well, the government and the
[00:37:38] the police in the country have yet yet to comment. Former cricketer
[00:37:41] cricketer Imran Khan has been in in prison since August 2023 after
[00:37:45] after being convicted on several several charges, including corruption,
[00:37:48] corruption, which he says are politically politically motivated and his sisters
[00:37:51] sisters have been campaigning on on his behalf for his release. Ed
[00:37:55] Ed Sheeran's apologised on stage stage to fans in Philadelphia and
[00:37:58] and admitted he made mistakes following following the controversy over his
[00:38:01] his world tour. The singer has been been dealing with the fallout after after his support act. The American
[00:38:05] American rapper Macklemore was removed removed from the line-up after he
[00:38:08] he made pro-Palestinian remarks on on stage. It led to the other support
[00:38:11] support act then pulling out of the the tour, while Ed Sheeran said he
[00:38:15] he questioned whether he wanted to to be an artist at all after everything
[00:38:19] everything that happened. Carl Nasman Nasman reports from the concert.
[00:38:22] concert. Ed Sheeran is used to having
[00:38:23] having the spotlight on his music. music. Tonight it was squarely on
[00:38:27] on his words. This is not how I would
[00:38:30] would open the show. But before I I play some songs tonight, I hope
[00:38:33] hope it's OK if I say a few words.
[00:38:36] words. Taking the stage in Philadelphia, Philadelphia, the megastar apologised
[00:38:40] apologised directly to his fans for for the recent controversy surrounding
[00:38:42] surrounding his tour. This week. week. The criticism was about something
[00:38:46] something much more important and and I've had to take and make difficult
[00:38:50] difficult decisions and I am making
[00:38:51] making mistakes and I'm so, so sorry.
[00:38:54] sorry. He also clarified where he he stands on the situation in Gaza.
[00:38:58] Gaza. What happened in Israel and
[00:39:00] and at the Nova Music Festival on
[00:39:02] on October 7th was horrific and compounded
[00:39:04] compounded centuries of Jewish pain.
[00:39:07] pain. What is happening in Gaza is
[00:39:10] is a catastrophic and unjustifiable unjustifiable and disproportionate.
[00:39:13] disproportionate. My heart has been been broken by the scale of devastation
[00:39:16] devastation and loss of civilians
[00:39:19] civilians lives, of children's lives lives and the systemic injustice
[00:39:23] injustice we're seeing unfold in in the West Bank cannot be overlooked.
[00:39:26] overlooked. Sheeran also addressed addressed the musicians not in the
[00:39:29] the room. His backing band and tour tour mates left in solidarity after
[00:39:33] after the rapper Macklemore was dropped dropped over his pro-Palestinian
[00:39:37] pro-Palestinian views. He said he he was deeply worried about venues
[00:39:41] venues pre-approving content or performers.
[00:39:43] performers. I was in some of the the front rows inside that stadium
[00:39:46] stadium as Ed Sheeran made that speech speech and this was clearly an emotional
[00:39:50] emotional moment for him, he said. said. He was worried about how he
[00:39:53] he might be perceived tonight and and he was thankful that fans came
[00:39:56] came out at all. I thought it was was beautiful that we got to witness
[00:39:59] witness him in his element, like like what he's used to being in from
[00:40:02] from the start, you know? So he started started by himself and he's just
[00:40:05] just as good by himself and with with all these extra people. So I'm
[00:40:08] I'm glad we got more Ed Sheeran than than we would have otherwise. He
[00:40:11] He stayed neutral and I think he he covered both sides nicely. I think
[00:40:14] think everyone leaves happy and a a big fan of his. Sheeran is an artist
[00:40:18] artist who likes to stay out of politics,
[00:40:21] politics, but that has become increasingly increasingly difficult. Before the
[00:40:23] the concert, dozens of pro-Palestinian pro-Palestinian protesters near the
[00:40:27] the stadium only added to the pressure. pressure. Sheeran said tonight that that he wants his concerts to be
[00:40:31] be a place where everyone is welcome, welcome, and he likely hopes now
[00:40:35] now the focus can return to his music.
[00:40:39] music. Carl Nasman, BBC News. Scotland's Scotland's efforts to tackle its
[00:40:43] its drug death crisis are being challenged challenged by a growing influx of
[00:40:46] of powerful synthetic drugs. Experts
[00:40:48] Experts warn that new synthetic opioids opioids are becoming increasingly increasingly widespread, raising
[00:40:52] raising concerns that the number number of drug related deaths could
[00:40:55] could rise when the latest figures figures are due to be published this this week. With more, here's our
[00:40:58] our Scotland editor, James Cook.
[00:41:02] Cook. This spotless laboratory in in Dundee seems a world away from
[00:41:06] from the chaotic reality of illegal illegal drug use. But scientists
[00:41:10] scientists here are racing against against a deadly and evolving threat.
[00:41:13] threat. They're examining samples samples of seized drugs to find out
[00:41:16] out exactly what's in them. And the
[00:41:19] the answers are worrying. With new
[00:41:21] new substances emerging all the time. time. In terms of Europe, we are
[00:41:24] are seeing roughly about a drug entering entering into Europe context within
[00:41:28] within kind of every 1 to 2 weeks weeks something new will arise. I
[00:41:31] I mean, it's pretty rapid for us us to be able to keep up as
[00:41:35] scientists. And that must be dangerous. dangerous. Yeah, these drugs are are extremely dangerous. The illicit illicit drug supply in Scotland is
[00:41:38] is getting more and more dangerous dangerous as time goes on. They're
[00:41:42] They're particularly worried about about synthetic opioids called nitazenes,
[00:41:46] nitazenes, often hundreds of times times more potent than heroin. Criminals
[00:41:50] Criminals are mixing them with all all sorts of other substances, from
[00:41:53] from Valium style pills to powdered
[00:41:56] powdered cocaine. Last year, Police
[00:42:01] Police Scotland seized £80 million million worth of street drugs. This
[00:42:04] This year, the figure has already
[00:42:07] already reached 78 million and we we can reveal detectives have raided
[00:42:10] raided suspected nitazenes labs in in Ayrshire and Midlothian, arresting
[00:42:14] arresting five people. This is not
[00:42:17] not just an urban problem. The rapidly
[00:42:20] rapidly changing nature of the drug drug supply is hitting rural Scotland
[00:42:24] Scotland too. We've come to the Kintyre Kintyre peninsula on the far west
[00:42:27] west of the mainland, to hear more
[00:42:30] more about what is a struggle to
[00:42:31] to save lives. There are all sorts
[00:42:34] sorts of ways to do that. This group group tries to treat trauma by helping
[00:42:38] helping former drug users reconnect reconnect with nature, but the staff
[00:42:42] staff say their job has been made
[00:42:44] made harder by the rapidly evolving evolving nature of drug supplies.
[00:42:48] supplies. Some of these substances substances are so potent that a grain
[00:42:51] grain would be enough to take somebody somebody over and to kill them and
[00:42:55] and to possibly kill them. So this this is a frightening new landscape, landscape, really. It really is.
[00:42:58] is. I mean, I think I mean, it's
[00:43:01] it's not something I normally find find myself saying, but I don't think think drugs have ever been as risky
[00:43:05] risky or as dangerous as they are are now. People just never know quite
[00:43:07] quite what they're getting any more. more. And it's a terrible thing to
[00:43:10] to say. But with heroin it was better. better. The devil you knew. Quite
[00:43:13] Quite a statement and a reminder reminder of the scale of this crisis.
[00:43:16] crisis. We just want to think about
[00:43:18] about all those that we've lost through
[00:43:20] through substance use. So many lives
[00:43:23] lives lost. So much still to do to
[00:43:26] to save others. James Cook, BBC News,
[00:43:29] News, Kintyre. AI is making itself
[00:43:31] itself felt in many different parts parts of our lives, including when
[00:43:34] when it comes to finding a job or or hiring someone for one. Right
[00:43:37] Right now there's what's being called called an application explosion,
[00:43:41] explosion, which is creating challenges challenges for job seekers as well well as employers. Well, in the latest
[00:43:45] latest in his in-depth videos, our our analysis editor Ros Atkins explores
[00:43:48] explores the experience of looking
[00:43:49] looking for a job in the art of artificial
[00:43:52] artificial intelligence era. Looking
[00:43:53] Looking for a job is hard. But is
[00:43:57] is AI making it harder? Feels like like I'm talking to a robot. It feels
[00:44:00] feels really disheartening. The survival survival of the fittest. Now really.
[00:44:03] really. AI stands accused of ruining ruining the job market. Do you buy
[00:44:07] buy that? No I don't. But has a doom
[00:44:09] doom loop been created where AI is
[00:44:11] is used to write more and more applications
[00:44:14] applications and where employers employers increasingly use AI to to sift through them? Two out of
[00:44:18] of three of our clients are really really struggling with the volume. They can simply go click,
[00:44:22] click, click click. If you do get get through the AI shortlisting,
[00:44:26] shortlisting, guess who might be be doing the interview? Once I had
[00:44:29] had these AI tell me that I lacked
[00:44:30] lacked empathy. It's like you're you're speaking to a robot essentially,
[00:44:34] essentially, and I don't think that's that's what. You are. Well, you are
[00:44:37] are exactly. Recruitment is being
[00:44:40] being rewired by technology, but
[00:44:42] but is it better either for the applicant applicant or for the employer? To
[00:44:45] To help understand the issues, I I wanted to hear from people in the
[00:44:49] the middle of this. Kate runs an
[00:44:52] an AI consultancy. Matt is a recruitment
[00:44:55] recruitment executive and Niamh Adi
[00:44:56] Adi and Santina are job hunting and
[00:45:00] and sending a lot of applications. applications. Over 200 now. About
[00:45:03] About 50. It's been 100 so far. That's That's just in the last year. This
[00:45:07] This is part of an application explosion
[00:45:10] explosion which is happening for for several reasons. Competition
[00:45:13] Competition is fierce. The number number of vacancies is down. The
[00:45:16] The number of graduates is at a record
[00:45:19] record high and AI is helping to
[00:45:21] to write more and more applications.
[00:45:24] applications. 20 years ago, for graduate graduate vacancies, there were on
[00:45:28] on average 38 applications per job.
[00:45:30] job. Last year it was 140. Let's
[00:45:33] Let's look at this from both sides. sides. The employers and first the
[00:45:37] the job seekers. You're trying to to get a job at the moment you're you're finishing university. How
[00:45:41] How central is AI to doing that? that? It's really central. I use
[00:45:44] use it now for finding the jobs itself. itself. When I'm searching for jobs,
[00:45:48] jobs, I have my automated agent that that goes scrapes through the whole
[00:45:51] whole internet seeing which roles roles apply, opening which ones the
[00:45:54] the deadlines are, and it helps me me narrow the selection down. It's It's maybe putting keywords, see
[00:45:58] see which ones can make sound better. better. Even when I know I want to
[00:46:02] to portray a certain side of myself myself and what I want to say and
[00:46:05] and AI can help me sound better. better. Maybe edit my CV. I would
[00:46:09] would make sure that it has the same
[00:46:11] same words that there are in the
[00:46:13] the job description. Adi Niamh and
[00:46:15] and Santina aren't alone. One survey
[00:46:18] survey found 73% of students and
[00:46:20] and graduates use AI at some stage stage during the application process.
[00:46:23] process. I'll be honest, I'm surprised surprised it's not even higher. After
[00:46:27] After all, AI is very helpful and and there's one part of the process
[00:46:30] process where it's being used a lot.
[00:46:32] lot. Keywords job ads ask for certain
[00:46:36] certain experience and attributes. attributes. AI can make sure your your application includes those words.
[00:46:40] words. That's particularly helpful helpful when an AI sift is looking
[00:46:44] looking for them. But here's something something that might surprise you
[00:46:47] you using AI to shortlist people
[00:46:49] people isn't as widely used as you you might expect. One survey found
[00:46:53] found that 75% of candidates believe believe AI was being used to screen
[00:46:57] screen CVS. The number of recruiters
[00:46:58] recruiters who reported using it
[00:47:02] it was 21% on AI sifts. The UK's UK's Prime Minister, Andy Burnham,
[00:47:05] Burnham, has said. It doesn't feel feel to me that recruitment in the
[00:47:09] the post-pandemic era is becoming becoming fairer. It just does feel
[00:47:12] feel harder these days to make that
[00:47:15] that breakthrough, to get that first first connection, getting yourself
[00:47:18] yourself in front of someone is hard, hard, partly because of the volume
[00:47:21] volume of applications, partly because because technology is being used
[00:47:25] used for some of the shortlisting. shortlisting. But there are challenges
[00:47:29] challenges for employers to. Matt Matt Weston is a senior executive
[00:47:32] executive at recruitment firm Robert
[00:47:33] Robert Half. It places over 100,000
[00:47:36] 100,000 candidates a year globally.
[00:47:38] globally. It's hard to find the true
[00:47:41] true skills of the individual. I I think with AI you can put in a
[00:47:44] a job spec, it can generate a CV. CV. I'm trying to imagine the scene
[00:47:47] scene in your office. Are you sometimes sometimes sitting there just going,
[00:47:50] going, goodness, more and more and and more applications coming in all
[00:47:53] all looking. Quite the same. They
[00:47:55] They are very Samy and that's really,
[00:47:58] really, really hard to. That's the the art of what we do. The art is
[00:48:01] is just justifying or really going going through and seeing who is the
[00:48:05] the right candidate. A recent Ft Ft article explained why recruiting
[00:48:09] recruiting is going retro in the the age of AI, when every application
[00:48:12] application is polished, Polish tells
[00:48:14] tells you nothing. One HR executive
[00:48:17] executive says, which is where referrals referrals and personal recommendations
[00:48:20] recommendations come in. And as Matt
[00:48:23] Matt emphasises, checking out whether
[00:48:25] whether the CV actually matches what
[00:48:27] what the candidate can do. It all
[00:48:30] all comes down to vetting that very
[00:48:32] very tightly. A CV is essentially essentially a two-dimensional piece
[00:48:36] piece of paper, right? It can have have everything on there where the
[00:48:39] the art and the skill of where we we come in is where we can verify
[00:48:43] verify true experience and relevant relevant skills. In other words,
[00:48:47] words, even if technology helps, helps, human judgement is still an
[00:48:50] an essential part of the process. process. At this point, it's important
[00:48:54] important to be clear on something something that the use of technology
[00:48:58] technology to shortlist candidates candidates isn't necessarily seen
[00:49:01] seen as a bad thing. The Information Information Commissioner says these
[00:49:04] these tools can enable employers employers to process high volumes
[00:49:07] volumes of applications consistently consistently and quickly. Or listen
[00:49:10] listen to Kate Young. Her business business works with companies which
[00:49:14] which use AI recruitment tools. What
[00:49:16] What we do know is that humans making making decisions about who to hire
[00:49:20] hire is a deeply flawed process, process, and it always has been.
[00:49:22] been. I'm sure we can all remember. remember. Think of a time we were
[00:49:26] were rejected for a job. We didn't didn't have a firm handshake. We
[00:49:29] We didn't make eye contact or some some other spurious question. The
[00:49:31] The interviewer asked us that actually actually nothing to do with our capabilities.
[00:49:35] capabilities. Kate offers a useful useful reminder that humans haven't
[00:49:38] haven't always got it right. Generally,
[00:49:41] Generally, if the right guardrails guardrails are present, evaluate
[00:49:44] evaluate what it's been told to and and assuming those things are job
[00:49:47] job relevant criteria, there is the the possibility of better outcome outcome because all that error and
[00:49:50] and noise and bias can potentially potentially be screened out, but but only if it's built well. And
[00:49:54] And he said if the guardrails are are there. But that's a big if because
[00:49:58] because there are huge concerns, concerns, aren't there, that AI will
[00:50:02] will prioritise or elevate certain certain types of people. Those concerns
[00:50:05] concerns are very real and is a big big shift from the guardrails. You're
[00:50:08] You're quite right. And the guardrails
[00:50:11] guardrails are many and complicated, complicated, and they're everything
[00:50:14] everything from who built the system. system. Did they have the right expert
[00:50:18] expert expertise to do it? Which Which particular technology they
[00:50:20] they used, which particular AI technique technique they used. Do that? Well.
[00:50:24] Well. Kate argues an AI can be good
[00:50:27] good for both applicant and employer, employer, though more broadly it's
[00:50:31] it's not clear how easily employers employers can adapt their AI tools
[00:50:34] tools to meet their specific requirements.
[00:50:37] requirements. And there's another another concern you might think that
[00:50:40] that applying to ten different companies
[00:50:42] companies gives you ten chances. chances. Not necessarily. If different
[00:50:46] different employers are using the the same or very similar algorithms,
[00:50:49] algorithms, the same candidates could could be favoured again and again.
[00:50:53] again. Researchers have a term for
[00:50:55] for this risk algorithmic monoculture.
[00:50:58] monoculture. That's not actually actually a new phenomenon. It has has not a lot to do with AI, to be
[00:51:02] be honest with you. So if you think think back 30, 40 years, we would
[00:51:06] would typically see the same types types of people getting the best best jobs anyway, you know, those
[00:51:09] those people were well off. They They might be members of certain certain majority groups, they might
[00:51:13] might have access to certain social social privilege, they might have have gone to the best universities
[00:51:17] universities and those people would would always have had their pick pick of jobs. And then if you think
[00:51:20] think about assessment before AI AI employers were still able to configure
[00:51:24] configure systems to choose certain certain types of people. This is
[00:51:27] is contested territory, both which which biases humans may have and
[00:51:31] and which factors may offer reasonable
[00:51:33] reasonable grounds to favour or reject reject a candidate. And though it's
[00:51:37] it's claimed AI can move beyond human
[00:51:40] human biases given it learns from
[00:51:42] from human data that is far from
[00:51:44] from guaranteed. Whatever the merits, merits, if you do get through an
[00:51:48] an AI shortlist next may come an
[00:51:51] an AI interview. Hi, I'll be your your AI interviewer today. My goal
[00:51:54] goal is to learn more about you and and the experiences, skills and competencies
[00:51:58] competencies you might bring to this this role. Sometimes an AI avatar
[00:52:01] avatar will ask you questions and
[00:52:03] and then respond to your answers. answers. Other times you're given
[00:52:07] given a set series of questions with
[00:52:09] with each answer recorded as a timer
[00:52:11] timer counts down. The World Economic
[00:52:14] Economic Forum says AI led interviews interviews can expand opportunities
[00:52:17] opportunities for overlooked candidates, candidates, reduce recruiter bias,
[00:52:21] bias, increase efficiency and make make rejection more constructive.
[00:52:25] constructive. But the experience experience of these interviews isn't
[00:52:29] isn't always so positive. It's really really uncanny. It's really inhumane.
[00:52:32] inhumane. And it's like I'm trying trying to speak my heart out, be
[00:52:35] be as passionate as I can. But the
[00:52:39] the persona only sees, oh, are you you able to do this? Are you saying
[00:52:42] saying these key words? How does does it feel when you're talking
[00:52:46] talking to a AI generated person person to try and get a job? It doesn't
[00:52:50] doesn't feel nice. It doesn't feel feel nice. It feels like I'm putting
[00:52:53] putting all this effort in and I
[00:52:56] I don't see like, like with a normal normal human, you'd see. Yeah. Like,
[00:52:59] Like, you know, smiles. To the stage
[00:53:02] stage where I had an interview where
[00:53:04] where I was recorded, but I was essentially
[00:53:07] essentially talking to an AI and
[00:53:09] and the AI would basically ask me me questions based on what I was
[00:53:13] was saying. Once I had this AI telling
[00:53:15] telling me that I lacked empathy.
[00:53:17] empathy. So that for me was a bit
[00:53:20] bit was a bit crazy. Does it matter matter to you that there's no evidence
[00:53:23] evidence of a human being involved? involved? Yeah, definitely. It feels
[00:53:27] feels like I'm never going to be
[00:53:30] be understood by the other side. side. It feels like I'm talking to to a robot. I've got to be honest.
[00:53:34] honest. It feels reasonably bleak bleak that you're not just talking talking about wanting to get a job.
[00:53:37] job. You're talking about wanting wanting to reach the point where where you can speak to someone. Which
[00:53:41] Which is even before getting the the job, which is even more like, like, oh, there's such a long process
[00:53:45] process I have to go through to even
[00:53:47] even get my potential seen. Question Question here is how much of this
[00:53:51] this is the fault of new technology? technology? That is a very real and
[00:53:54] and valid feeling and I have a lot lot of sympathy with that perspective.
[00:53:58] perspective. Of course we all want want to meet a human. We all want want to feel that connection. We
[00:54:01] We want to feel that our time has has been valued and our efforts have
[00:54:05] have been valued because applying applying for a job is emotional and and important. I think it's easy
[00:54:08] easy to blame AI and AI in hiring hiring has its flaws, but I don't
[00:54:12] don't think that's the reason people people aren't necessarily reaching
[00:54:14] reaching human being. Needless to
[00:54:17] to say, recruitment before AI wasn't wasn't perfect. Far from it. But
[00:54:20] But there are some particular challenges challenges with what's happening happening now. So it's more like
[00:54:24] like an arms race now between the the employers and the candidates
[00:54:28] candidates really, because the employers employers are using AI to sift through through applications and the candidates
[00:54:31] candidates are using AI to better better their applications for the
[00:54:34] the role. And essentially it will
[00:54:36] will just become AI. Reading AI.
[00:54:38] AI. They would suggest, B yourself
[00:54:42] yourself and your applications like like have a true voice. But then
[00:54:45] then at the same time, when you actually
[00:54:47] actually do that, you just get instantly instantly rejected. AI isn't responsible
[00:54:51] responsible for every challenge with with job hunting, and it may prove
[00:54:55] prove very helpful, but clearly there there are issues. And as the genie
[00:54:59] genie is out of the bottle, it's it's not a question of if it's used.
[00:55:02] used. It's very much about how. You
[00:55:04] You get behind. If you don't use
[00:55:07] use AI today in this market, it's
[00:55:10] it's a must. Unfortunately. Yeah. I guess it's a shame, but I
[00:55:13] I guess it's reality as well. Like Like a survival of the fittest now
[00:55:16] now really it's like you either use use AI with your applications with
[00:55:20] with the keywords or you don't. And And at the end of the day, everyone everyone wants the job. Everyone
[00:55:24] Everyone wants to get to that opportunity opportunity where they can speak speak to the human. And if that means
[00:55:28] means having to use the tool to better better yourself, that's the cost
[00:55:32] cost at the current state. Ikaros
[00:55:35] Ikaros at Ros Atkins there. And if if you want to watch more of his
[00:55:38] his videos, you can go to the BBC BBC News YouTube channel where more
[00:55:42] more of his video explainers are are there. Just going to give you
[00:55:45] you an update on those crucial regional
[00:55:48] regional elections in Germany. And And Germany's Chancellor Friedrich Friedrich Merz says he takes responsibility
[00:55:52] responsibility for what he's as a
[00:55:55] a disastrous showing for his party party in those latest state elections.
[00:55:58] elections. Exit polls at the moment moment suggest his Christian Democrats
[00:56:01] Democrats have barely scraped enough enough votes to enter parliament
[00:56:04] parliament in the northeastern state state of Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania.
[00:56:07] Pomerania. Sam Simmons is up next. next. That's it
[00:59:44] MUSIC
[01:00:12] Live from London. This is BBC
[01:00:15] News. Exit polls in two state elections elections in Germany show big losses
[01:00:19] losses for Chancellor. Merz's CDU CDU party. He describes the result
[01:00:23] result as a disaster for his party
[01:00:25] party as AfD and Die Linke make gains.
[01:00:29] gains. Earl Spencer tells the BBC, BBC, writing his book
[01:00:36] Writing his book about his sister Princess Diana was his duty duty as an eyewitness to history history and defends claims he made
[01:00:40] made about the King. I'm reporting reporting every word in this book.
[01:00:43] book. I report exactly as I saw it
[01:00:44] it and felt it at the time, and I
[01:00:48] I was surprised at the giddiness giddiness of his tone. That's what
[01:00:51] what I'm recording there. At least
[01:00:54] least two people are killed in the
[01:00:56] the Moscow region in a massive Ukrainian Ukrainian drone attack. Russia says says it's an attempt