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[00:00:00] Business on BBC News. Make the connection.
[00:00:07] connection. MUSIC MUSIC
[00:00:18] These are the latest headlines headlines from BBC News, exit polls
[00:00:21] polls and two state elections in in Germany show big losses for Chancellor
[00:00:25] Chancellor Merkel's CDU party. He He describes the results as a disaster
[00:00:29] disaster for his party as the AfD
[00:00:30] AfD and Die Linke make gains. Earl
[00:00:34] Earl Spencer tells the BBC, writing writing his book about his sister
[00:00:37] sister Princess Diana was his duty duty as an eyewitness to history
[00:00:40] history and defends claims made about about the King. These two people
[00:00:44] people are killed in the Moscow region region after a massive Ukrainian
[00:00:47] Ukrainian drone attack overnight. overnight. The mayor of Moscow claims
[00:00:51] claims 450 drones were directed at at the city. Russia says it's an
[00:00:54] an attempt to disrupt the country's country's parliamentary elections.
[00:00:58] elections. Ed Sheeran apologises apologises to fans for what he calls
[00:01:01] calls mistakes as he performs for for the first time since one of his
[00:01:04] his opening acts was dropped for for making pro-Palestinian remarks
[00:01:07] remarks on stage. Global business
[00:01:18] business news from the boardroom boardroom or grassroots BBC News News cuts through the jargon to add
[00:01:22] add colour, depth and context with with live reaction from Wall Street
[00:01:26] Street and Asia. Studio interviews interviews with top CEOs and the
[00:01:29] the latest innovations in technology.
[00:01:32] technology. Talking Business. Hello
[00:01:35] Hello and welcome to Talking Business. Business. Here's what's on the programme
[00:01:38] programme this week. If we wheel wheel around you can see the rows
[00:01:42] rows of soundproof booths where the
[00:01:44] the scammers all worked. And elsewhere elsewhere in this building there
[00:01:47] there are many other rooms with police police stations purporting to be
[00:01:50] be from other countries. This is
[00:01:53] is scamming on an industrial scale. scale. As the cost of cyber fraud
[00:01:56] fraud and financial scams hits hundreds hundreds of billions of dollars.
[00:02:00] dollars. There are growing calls calls for governments to treat the
[00:02:03] the threat as a national security
[00:02:05] security issue. Cyber related crimes
[00:02:08] crimes have become the priority for
[00:02:11] for member countries of Interpol
[00:02:14] Interpol around the globe. This threat threat is growing in numbers. It's
[00:02:18] It's growing also in complexity. complexity. As bad actors get hold
[00:02:22] hold of powerful new technology and
[00:02:24] and join forces with hostile states. states. On this programme, we'll
[00:02:27] we'll assess the scale of the threat threat and ask what needs to change
[00:02:30] change to keep our money, our businesses
[00:02:33] businesses and our financial systems systems safe. Georgia Jones is a
[00:02:37] a finance and security expert at
[00:02:38] at the UK's Royal United Services
[00:02:41] Services Institute. Greg Jones ran ran Interpol's cybercrime division
[00:02:44] division for five years and tells tells me what he found working with
[00:02:47] with law enforcers around the world. world. And what about the risks to
[00:02:51] to critical infrastructure and transport transport systems? I'll speak to
[00:02:54] to the boss and pioneer of self-driving
[00:02:57] self-driving truck company, plus
[00:02:58] plus AI, about the threat of cyber
[00:03:01] cyber attacks on vehicles. Wherever
[00:03:07] Wherever you're watching, welcome welcome to the programme. Now, earlier earlier this year, authorities in
[00:03:11] in Thailand took BBC journalists journalists and other news organisations
[00:03:14] organisations into land that they'd they'd captured during their conflict
[00:03:17] conflict with Cambodia. The destination destination was a compound revealing
[00:03:21] revealing an abandoned international international scam factory. Inside,
[00:03:24] Inside, cameras went into rooms appearing appearing to be Vietnamese banks.
[00:03:28] banks. An Australian police station station as well as artefacts like
[00:03:31] like Chinese police officer
[00:03:35] shirts. Yeah. Well, Cambodia is often often referred to in the fraud community
[00:03:39] community as Cambodia. It's been been estimated that revenue from
[00:03:41] from fraud now accounts for about about a quarter of the country's
[00:03:45] country's GDP, and it is not alone.
[00:03:47] alone. Global losses from fraud hit
[00:03:50] hit more than $440 billion last year,
[00:03:53] year, and it's getting worse at Interpol, Interpol, the International Police
[00:03:56] Police network fraud notices have
[00:03:57] have risen by more than 50% since
[00:04:00] since 2024. Nearly half the world's world's population is targeted by
[00:04:04] by a scammer each week. Here in the
[00:04:07] the UK, attacks on businesses by
[00:04:08] by hackers demanding a ransom last last year devastated operations at
[00:04:12] at retailers like Marks and Spencer Spencer and the co-op, as well as
[00:04:16] as the car giant Jaguar Land Rover. Rover. That attack alone cost billions
[00:04:20] billions of dollars. And all of this this is highlighted in a special
[00:04:23] special report from the UK's Royal Royal United Services Institute.
[00:04:26] Institute. It reveals how technology technology has changed the face of
[00:04:30] of fraud, how areas like the Costa Costa del Sol in Spain have become
[00:04:34] become centres where hostile states states and organisations can order
[00:04:37] order fraud operations and launder launder money in the way that most
[00:04:40] most of us may order a taxi or an
[00:04:43] an Uber. The report also says that
[00:04:46] that as well as powerful technology technology collaboration between between gangs and hostile states
[00:04:49] states means that the issue is no no longer just a matter of criminality
[00:04:53] criminality but also one of national national security. My first guest
[00:04:57] guest is from the Finance and Security
[00:04:59] Security Centre of the Royal United United Services Institute and one
[00:05:02] one of the leading researchers in in this area, Georgie Jones. Welcome
[00:05:06] Welcome to Talking Business. Good Good to have you here. And give me
[00:05:08] me a sense of what changes if governments
[00:05:12] governments consider treat cybercrime
[00:05:14] cybercrime as a national security
[00:05:16] security risk rather than just criminality.
[00:05:18] criminality. Yes. So what changes
[00:05:21] changes is a greater mobilisation mobilisation of resources and more
[00:05:25] more concerted effort toward the the problem at hand? So we've seen
[00:05:28] seen with the way that fraud is categorised categorised as a national security
[00:05:31] security risk in the UK since 2023,
[00:05:34] 2023, there's been a much greater greater mobilisation of resources
[00:05:37] resources and a lot more cross-government cross-government effort. So ideally
[00:05:40] ideally we would see this conceptualisation
[00:05:42] conceptualisation of fraud as a national national security risk spreading spreading throughout the rest of
[00:05:46] of the world too. And where is that
[00:05:48] that threat coming from? Who are are the people perpetrating these
[00:05:52] these crimes? So the evidence that
[00:05:54] that we have suggests that this is
[00:05:56] is largely being directed by organised
[00:05:58] organised criminal factions. Now
[00:06:01] Now there is also a degree of complicity
[00:06:04] complicity from political elites, elites, particularly if you're looking looking at those larger scam compounds
[00:06:08] compounds that are operating. They
[00:06:11] They necessarily have to have some
[00:06:13] some form of complicity coming in, in, but that can exist on a continuum.
[00:06:17] continuum. So you can have low level level operatives being paid to give
[00:06:20] give tip offs about upcoming raids, raids, for example, but it can go
[00:06:23] go all the way up to state involvement
[00:06:27] involvement as it was in Myanmar. Myanmar. There was the Korean border border guard were found to actually
[00:06:31] actually be providing muscle for for some of these scam compounds.
[00:06:33] compounds. So it's incredibly concerning, concerning, but it's not necessarily
[00:06:36] necessarily being used as a state, state, like as a tool of statecraft,
[00:06:39] statecraft, just to qualify that. that. But it appears that it's organised
[00:06:43] organised criminal factions. And And for those larger operations,
[00:06:46] operations, there's some degree of of complicity from political elites.
[00:06:50] elites. And how much more sophisticated sophisticated do you think these these operations have become given?
[00:06:54] given? I guess technology is changing
[00:06:56] changing all the time, but the sophistication sophistication of these means that
[00:06:59] that it is potentially much easier easier for people to fall victim
[00:07:02] victim and maybe not just even individuals, individuals, but big organisations
[00:07:05] organisations too. Yeah. Most definitely. definitely. I mean, if you look at
[00:07:07] at the way that artificial intelligence intelligence has changed the game, game, you're not going to be getting
[00:07:11] getting a suspicious email with terrible terrible grammar from a prince any
[00:07:15] any more. They've entirely moved moved on and they've been able to
[00:07:18] to craft really compelling campaigns campaigns and targeting lots of different
[00:07:22] different audiences as well. So like like you rightly say, businesses
[00:07:26] businesses being targeted. And it's it's something that unfortunately
[00:07:28] unfortunately we expect to increase increase in the coming years. If
[00:07:31] If you look at the return on investment
[00:07:33] investment for a fraudster, you might might have to work with a single
[00:07:37] single human for months on a romance romance scam to actually get any
[00:07:39] any transfer of value. And then you're you're looking at sums that are maybe
[00:07:43] maybe tens of thousands, possibly possibly even hundreds of thousands thousands of pounds. But all you
[00:07:46] you need is one fake invoice to go go through and you could potentially potentially be looking at hundreds
[00:07:50] hundreds of thousands of pounds. pounds. So just for the basic incentives
[00:07:53] incentives that are at play, it's it's likely that we're going to see
[00:07:56] see that increasing to. And when
[00:07:58] when you look around the world, where where is getting the response right?
[00:08:02] right? Where is it has got a handle handle on how to tackle this. So
[00:08:05] So over the course of our research, research, we saw a lot of really
[00:08:09] really interesting examples. There's There's the obvious ones like the
[00:08:12] the UK has a wonderful fraud strategy.
[00:08:16] strategy. The UK, Australia, Singapore Singapore those are the examples
[00:08:18] examples that are often touted. But But even in places like the Philippines
[00:08:22] Philippines and South Africa, there's there's really interesting initiatives
[00:08:24] initiatives that are in place in
[00:08:27] in terms of having that broader cohesive cohesive strategy that's mobilising
[00:08:31] mobilising the entirety of government. government. There aren't a huge amount
[00:08:34] amount of those examples out there there as of yet, but they're definitely
[00:08:38] definitely in development. And so so if you're an organisation watching watching this right now saying, yes,
[00:08:42] yes, you know, I know I should be
[00:08:44] be taking cyber security more seriously. seriously. Where do they start? What
[00:08:48] What should they be concerned and and dealing with? What can they put
[00:08:51] put in place right now? I think the
[00:08:54] the first thing is to just have a
[00:08:57] a look at your own internal processes
[00:08:59] processes and think like a fraudster
[00:09:02] fraudster before they do so you want want to be trying to map out where
[00:09:05] where the vulnerabilities are in
[00:09:07] in your unique system. And secondly,
[00:09:11] secondly, I would say it's actually actually really important to reach reach out to your competitors to
[00:09:14] to look at. Across industry and to to be sharing information. Fraudsters
[00:09:17] Fraudsters take advantage of the the fact that we're not speaking
[00:09:20] speaking to each other. And if you you have a much clearer picture of
[00:09:23] of the threat as it's manifesting manifesting not just in your individual
[00:09:26] individual firm, but looking at across across the industry, it's going to
[00:09:29] to make it a lot easier for you to to hopefully plug in those vulnerabilities.
[00:09:33] vulnerabilities. Georgia Jones, really really good to talk to you on the the programme this week. Thanks for
[00:09:36] for being with us. Thank you for for having me, Ben. My next guest
[00:09:39] guest has been at the forefront of of the fight against cybercrime and
[00:09:42] and fraud for most of his career,
[00:09:44] career, including five years as the the director of cybercrime at Interpol.
[00:09:48] Interpol. Greg Jones, welcome back back to Talking Business. It's good
[00:09:51] good to see you. You've met and had had to deal with some pretty unpleasant
[00:09:54] unpleasant people in your time at at Interpol. Talk to me about how
[00:09:58] how that threat has changed and maybe maybe resource is moving away from
[00:10:01] from what we might consider to be
[00:10:03] be traditional organised crime to
[00:10:06] to cybercrime and scams that is evolving evolving all the time. But it's changed
[00:10:10] changed significantly, hasn't it?
[00:10:11] it? Yeah, absolutely. When we look
[00:10:14] look at the sort of the early cyber cyber scams, they were pretty basic
[00:10:18] basic effectively. But sometimes sometimes we still fall for those
[00:10:22] those basic sort of crimes. But when when you look at these criminal ecosystems
[00:10:25] ecosystems now as the digital technology
[00:10:29] technology has evolved, you know, know, businesses and normal businesses
[00:10:32] businesses are able to operate globally
[00:10:34] globally from your own home now.
[00:10:36] now. So criminals are just leveraging leveraging that same technology and
[00:10:39] and they've got a really decentralised decentralised way of working. So
[00:10:42] So you look at these modern technology technology companies that they have, have, you know, they don't have people
[00:10:46] people all coming into one office. office. Well, criminals do it the
[00:10:48] the same. They look for the infrastructure infrastructure so they look to see
[00:10:52] see what platforms they can leverage. leverage. They look for people as
[00:10:55] as well. So how can they get people people to work directly for them?
[00:10:58] them? Because you know, there is is a skill shortage in this space.
[00:11:02] space. So they can either try and and trick people to work for them, them, say, look, you know, we're
[00:11:06] we're doing some penetration testing testing at the moment. Here's a contract, contract, here's a company you need
[00:11:10] need to go and look at. Can you get get into their networks? Can you
[00:11:13] you get us access? But the other other thing we're seeing now from
[00:11:16] from these criminal groups is, is is that human trafficking. So they're
[00:11:20] they're advertising jobs, you know, know, globally. You think you're you're going to go and get a well-paid
[00:11:24] well-paid job in Dubai, for example,
[00:11:26] example, as an it sort of consultant
[00:11:29] consultant or running, you know, know, helping to run a team. And And in fact, what happens is then
[00:11:33] then you then get trafficked out out into South East Asia or something
[00:11:36] something like that and end up being being dropped into a scam compound.
[00:11:38] compound. So they need the IT skills. skills. They need people to be running
[00:11:42] running the calls as well. So there's there's a whole different part to
[00:11:45] to this. And, and the criminals are
[00:11:49] are building out this ecosystem across across different areas as well. And
[00:11:52] And you talk about scam compounds. compounds. We've just been looking
[00:11:55] looking at incredible pictures of
[00:11:57] of that big scam compound in Cambodia.
[00:12:01] Cambodia. Where in the world is this this happening? And there are real
[00:12:04] real hotspots in certain places, places, aren't there? So if there there are, why is it so difficult
[00:12:07] difficult to tackle them? So I think think maybe we trace back to start
[00:12:11] start with. We looked at it being being in Russian speaking centres
[00:12:14] centres to start with. That's sort sort of where it started. You had
[00:12:17] had whole villages and effectively effectively what happened there is, is, you know, people didn't have
[00:12:21] have much money, but they had a connection connection to the internet. They
[00:12:24] They had a connection to the world world and they realised they could
[00:12:27] could make, you know, pretty significant
[00:12:29] significant amounts of money by committing
[00:12:32] committing crime online. So as that
[00:12:34] that technology has moved out into
[00:12:36] into the sort of South East Asia's Asia's Africa, the same model has
[00:12:40] has evolved as well. When you have have poor economic growth in a country,
[00:12:44] country, you know, one way that you you can bring money in is through
[00:12:47] through committing crime and online online crime. Being able to do it
[00:12:50] it in a country which might be a a hard to reach jurisdiction or,
[00:12:54] or, you know, as law enforcement enforcement as I was previously.
[00:12:57] previously. You know, we work very
[00:12:58] very much in a local area, a local
[00:13:01] local crime area. You worked in your your community. Now you have law
[00:13:05] law enforcement working on global global investigations that used to
[00:13:08] to be mainly in sort of a drug importation
[00:13:11] importation that that higher based, based, commodity based crime. But
[00:13:14] But now it's online. So again, looking
[00:13:16] looking at how law enforcement now
[00:13:18] now has to work, it's a really different
[00:13:21] different area that judicial outcome outcome is not always achievable.
[00:13:25] achievable. By that, I mean putting putting a hand on someone's shoulder,
[00:13:28] shoulder, arresting them and locking locking them up, taking them to court
[00:13:31] court and then getting a prison sentence sentence for them. Trying to do that
[00:13:34] that globally is a lot more challenging challenging to try to do that in,
[00:13:37] in, in Southampton or London, for for example, when you're working
[00:13:40] working locally. And there's a growing growing focus, of course, on the
[00:13:43] the crime itself on, on the methods methods of making this money. Is
[00:13:47] Is there enough focus on what they they do with this money, how they
[00:13:51] they dispose of it, money laundering laundering and dealing with the proceeds
[00:13:55] proceeds of this crime. Because it it strikes me there's two very distinct
[00:13:58] distinct elements to this. You're You're absolutely spot on. I mean, mean, first of all, we have to set
[00:14:01] set up the infrastructure. So they they need the means to bring that that money in. How do they bring
[00:14:05] bring that money in? And we're seeing seeing a lot of scams now being set
[00:14:08] set up where you're paying in virtual virtual currencies or if you're putting
[00:14:12] putting it through a bank account, account, they move that money really
[00:14:14] really quickly. So they have a network network that's set up so they can
[00:14:17] can shift that money around. But But when we look at virtual currencies
[00:14:21] currencies or bitcoins, for example,
[00:14:23] example, you can trace that because because you know, always leaves a
[00:14:26] a trace of where it's gone effectively.
[00:14:29] effectively. So there's a whole industry industry now looking at how we trace
[00:14:32] trace this money. And again, it's it's another thing that law enforcement
[00:14:35] enforcement has to do. So again, again, working with the private sector
[00:14:38] sector in this space is, is really,
[00:14:41] really, really important. Being able able to work directly with them.
[00:14:44] them. But then you have to have the the right information sharing agreements
[00:14:48] agreements in, you know, it's not not quite as simple as it used to
[00:14:51] to be. And that's where Interpol
[00:14:53] Interpol comes into this very much
[00:14:55] much so that connects globally law
[00:14:57] law enforcement together. And coming coming back to that money movements, movements, they're looking at different
[00:15:01] different ways about how they can can trace money quickly and then
[00:15:04] then get a stop, put on that money money through financial investigation
[00:15:08] investigation units in countries countries using Interpol channels. channels. We can speed this up a
[00:15:12] a lot quicker. And then the law enforcement enforcement and that sort of mutual
[00:15:16] mutual legal assistance that comes comes in afterwards can be followed
[00:15:19] followed up. And that's more about
[00:15:21] about time consuming, you know, writing writing out, you know, lawyer's notes
[00:15:25] notes from one country to another another country as well. So you then
[00:15:28] then go back to that almost like like that paper and pen effectively
[00:15:31] effectively in a law enforcement enforcement investigation. Now AI
[00:15:35] AI is a game changer when it comes
[00:15:38] comes to the sophistication of some
[00:15:39] some scams able to replicate, you
[00:15:42] you know, really realistic details, details, voices, you know, web pages,
[00:15:46] pages, all that sort of stuff. Is Is it also helping in the fight against
[00:15:50] against the crime? I mean, does it it work on both sides? Yeah, absolutely.
[00:15:53] absolutely. Sure. It works on both both sides. But I think what we see
[00:15:56] see on both sides is the checks and and balances that governments have
[00:15:59] have to put in place, and law enforcement enforcement has to put in place,
[00:16:02] place, you know, the cyber criminals criminals don't have those checks checks and balances. They can just
[00:16:06] just grab the latest technology, technology, they can play around around with it. They can look to
[00:16:10] to see how they can integrate it it into their criminal business model
[00:16:13] model and use it really quickly, quickly, really effectively. Law
[00:16:17] Law enforcement is doing exactly exactly the same thing. It's trying
[00:16:18] trying to join up maybe systems that
[00:16:22] that haven't been connected previously, previously, large data sets and really
[00:16:25] really get into that data and pull
[00:16:27] pull out that crucial piece of information,
[00:16:30] information, which can then identify identify those criminals or the infrastructure
[00:16:34] infrastructure they're using. But But I suppose when you look at how
[00:16:37] how the criminals set up their networks networks and their operations, they're
[00:16:40] they're a very agile, almost like like a Start-Up at times they can
[00:16:44] can move very, very quickly and they they can grow very quickly as well.
[00:16:47] well. They can move their operations, operations, you know, taking down
[00:16:50] down one server, bringing another another server up in a different different country very quickly. And
[00:16:54] And that then makes it more challenging challenging for law enforcement when
[00:16:57] when they're trying to track and and trace those criminal groups as
[00:17:01] as well. Are you confident that we
[00:17:04] we are winning here or are we just just playing whack a mole trying
[00:17:06] trying to keep this crime down wherever wherever it might pop up, but it
[00:17:10] it is always there? I mean, what
[00:17:12] what is your consensus about whether whether we can ever get ahead of
[00:17:16] of this? So I think. We knew some
[00:17:19] some fairly emotive language when when we're describing these things.
[00:17:21] things. We talk about it being a a battle, a war. Can we win? Can't
[00:17:25] Can't we win? Who's winning? Who's Who's losing? I think for me, the
[00:17:28] the simple fact is we still have
[00:17:31] have victims of crime. So that to to me is a loss. They're losing money.
[00:17:34] money. People are losing their lives lives as well. When we have sextortion sextortion and things like that.
[00:17:38] that. So when we look at it, I like like to try and draw it back to,
[00:17:41] to, you know, what are we trying trying to prevent here and how do do we prevent those crimes happening
[00:17:45] happening in the first instance?
[00:17:46] instance? How can we work more effectively
[00:17:49] effectively with the big technology technology companies? So when we
[00:17:53] we spot something, you know, we can can go to them or what can they do?
[00:17:57] do? As technology companies, we've we've looked at some of these technology
[00:18:00] technology companies shifting away
[00:18:02] away maybe from those checks and
[00:18:05] and balances in that space because
[00:18:07] because it is not necessarily a priority priority for them at that moment
[00:18:11] moment in time, but how can they
[00:18:12] they be more effective in that space space in protecting their users?
[00:18:16] users? They might be providing a a platform, but how do we protect
[00:18:19] protect the users at the end of this this as well? And I think for me,
[00:18:23] me, more focus on that prevention
[00:18:25] prevention piece and looking at those those vulnerabilities because even
[00:18:28] even if we look at how AI is exploiting exploiting those vulnerabilities,
[00:18:32] vulnerabilities, AI is just a tool. tool. Those vulnerabilities are in
[00:18:35] in those systems and networks, and and that's what the cybercriminals
[00:18:39] cybercriminals leverage off. They They go to those vulnerabilities vulnerabilities and systems and networks
[00:18:43] networks and use those. But also also as humans, we're vulnerable
[00:18:46] vulnerable as well, and they prey prey on that. So it's not just a
[00:18:50] a technology problem here. That's That's it's a people problem as well.
[00:18:53] well. Craig Jones, good to talk to to you on the programme this week. week. Thank you. Thank you very much
[00:18:57] much indeed. Now when we come back, back, how self-driving vehicles could
[00:19:01] could become a target for hackers. hackers. I'll ask the boss of a self-driving
[00:19:05] self-driving truck software company company about facing up to the security
[00:19:09] security challenges.
[00:20:13] for world questions. Nigeria truth,
[00:20:14] truth, trust and fake news on BBC
[00:20:18] BBC News. MUSIC
[00:20:29] MUSIC Welcome Welcome back to Talking Business Business Now. Self-Driving vehicles
[00:20:31] vehicles provide a new challenge challenge for cyber security. And
[00:20:34] And while a lot of recent discussion discussion has been about cyber taxis
[00:20:38] taxis and autonomous cars, the real real revolution is in the haulage
[00:20:42] haulage industry. Autonomous trucking trucking is one of the most complex
[00:20:45] complex engineering challenges of of our time. But the biggest risk
[00:20:48] risk isn't just a software bug. It
[00:20:50] It could be a malicious actor. Imagine
[00:20:53] Imagine an autonomous 800 £0 truck
[00:20:56] truck that gets hacked. Well, the the damage could be colossal. So
[00:20:59] So discuss that. I'm joined by the the chief executive of plus AI. It's
[00:21:03] It's a company driving automation
[00:21:05] automation of the transport sector. sector. David welcome to Talking Talking Business. It's good to have
[00:21:09] have you here. And in this programme programme we're looking at the risk
[00:21:12] risk from cyber threats to all sorts sorts of businesses big and small
[00:21:15] small and to the wider economy from from where you're sitting in autonomous
[00:21:18] autonomous trucks. What does that that mean for you, Ben? Thank you
[00:21:21] you for having me on for delivering
[00:21:25] delivering autonomous truck security
[00:21:28] security and functional safety are
[00:21:31] are the most important. Two factors
[00:21:33] factors that for us. So what we are
[00:21:36] are building is a autonomous driving
[00:21:38] driving system that can drive a truck,
[00:21:41] truck, a 800 £0 truck down the highway.
[00:21:45] highway. So from a reliability and
[00:21:47] and security and safety point of
[00:21:50] of view, it is the most fundamental fundamental requirement for us to
[00:21:53] to design the system. And so how
[00:21:54] how do you make sure that it is secure.
[00:21:57] secure. So we design the security security from the very foundation
[00:22:00] foundation of the system. Every layer
[00:22:03] layer of the system is designed with
[00:22:06] with security and anti-hacking in in place. We also have detection
[00:22:10] detection system in place where we we can detect any intrusion from
[00:22:14] from a cybersecurity point of view.
[00:22:16] view. And we will take a proactive
[00:22:19] proactive action once we detect the the threat. So I suppose the question
[00:22:23] question is how you prevent hackers hackers getting in there in the first first place. And we were talking
[00:22:26] talking in this programme about how how the nature of that sort of threat
[00:22:29] threat has changed. It's no longer longer just about extorting money.
[00:22:32] money. It's now about taking control control of critical infrastructure.
[00:22:35] infrastructure. And with a truck truck the size that you're talking talking about here, that could be
[00:22:39] be a lethal weapon if it was in the
[00:22:41] the wrong hands. So this is exactly
[00:22:43] exactly what we're designing to prevent.
[00:22:45] prevent. So first of all, we're preventing
[00:22:49] preventing hackers from entering entering the system. At the same
[00:22:52] same time we're detecting any type
[00:22:54] type of unintended access or intrusion intrusion to the system. And then
[00:22:58] then from that point on, every layer
[00:23:00] layer of the system we are we have
[00:23:05] have security in place to prevent prevent overriding of what's intended
[00:23:08] intended for the system to do. And And then we also have system in place
[00:23:12] place to shut down the entire entire
[00:23:15] entire truck, the entire system in
[00:23:18] in case where there is a, you know,
[00:23:20] know, an undetected or unprevented unprevented intrusion to the system.
[00:23:23] system. So talk me through what that that process would look like if you
[00:23:27] you were aware that there was malicious malicious actors in the system, do
[00:23:30] do those trucks just stop that they they would stop en route or they
[00:23:34] they brought slowly to a halt. How
[00:23:35] How does it work? Yeah. So if there
[00:23:38] there is a fundamentally if there
[00:23:40] there is a threat or intrusion that's,
[00:23:43] that's, you know, penetrated multiple multiple layers of the system already.
[00:23:46] already. Ultimately the system will will essentially detect that and
[00:23:50] and place the truck into a safe stop
[00:23:52] stop and stop there for for overall
[00:23:56] overall humans to come over and to
[00:23:58] to take over the system. Also, is
[00:24:00] is it because there is concern too too about where the software is coming
[00:24:04] coming from? And we've seen this this in other industries too. So
[00:24:07] So it's not unique to yours, but but potentially some software coming
[00:24:10] coming from China that has sparked sparked concerns in parts of Europe
[00:24:13] Europe and the United States. How How do you assuage some of those
[00:24:17] those concerns? That's a broader broader geopolitical question. You
[00:24:19] You know, plus AI, where a company company based in the US with branches
[00:24:23] branches in Europe and that's the the primary market we're addressing
[00:24:27] addressing us, Europe and Japan. Japan. Now, you are of course, hoping
[00:24:30] hoping to list publicly and take
[00:24:33] take that technology to a bigger bigger market. What would that look
[00:24:36] look like? And I guess what would would you do with the money if you
[00:24:39] you were able to float? So we're
[00:24:41] we're on the cusp of a wide adoption
[00:24:43] adoption and commercialisation of of autonomous driving technology.
[00:24:47] technology. So going public would would only accelerate our progress
[00:24:51] progress in the industry. So we're we're very, very excited about becoming
[00:24:54] becoming a public entity in the in
[00:24:56] in coming the near future. I mean, mean, it would value the company
[00:25:00] company at what, about $800 million? million? What would be the first
[00:25:04] first thing that you can do with with that money that maybe you can't
[00:25:08] can't do at the moment? So we are
[00:25:11] are going to use the proceeds to
[00:25:13] to really accelerate the R&D development
[00:25:15] development to develop our AI system,
[00:25:17] system, to be smarter and safer. safer. So we'll continue down that
[00:25:21] that path. OK. David Lou, really really good to talk to you on the the programme this week. Thank you.
[00:25:25] you. Thank you Ben. That's all for for this week. For more on the global
[00:25:29] global economy and the businesses businesses powering it, check out out the BBC News website and app.
[00:25:33] app. But until next time, thanks thanks for watching and we'll see
[00:25:35] see you soon. Bye-bye.
[00:29:18] My dad was a farmer, but he
[00:29:20] also had a radio talk show for farmers farmers who called in with their
[00:29:24] their farming problems. He patiently patiently listened to every conflicting
[00:29:27] conflicting account of what was and and wasn't working. That was really
[00:29:30] really influential to how I approached approached my journalism. Building
[00:29:33] Building trust by taking the time time to understand a situation clearly
[00:29:37] clearly before reporting a story
[00:29:39] story in a 24 hour news cycle. Patience
[00:29:42] Patience can be so frustrating, but but it's a crucial tool. I'm Lucy
[00:29:46] Lucy Hockings on BBC News Now.
[00:30:08] MUSIC
[00:30:17] She was the most famous woman
[00:30:20] in the world. Next to Charles. And
[00:30:23] And I can't go wrong. He's there
[00:30:25] there with me. Married into the monarchy.
[00:30:29] monarchy. Destined to be queen. Her
[00:30:33] Her campaigning, her chosen causes
[00:30:34] causes broke convention and touched
[00:30:37] touched millions of lives. I'm only only trying to highlight a problem
[00:30:40] problem that's going on all around around the world. That's all. But
[00:30:44] But that. Fairytale became a nightmare.
[00:30:48] nightmare. Private unhappiness couldn't couldn't be hidden from the public
[00:30:51] public glare. Delight in her beloved
[00:30:54] beloved boys. One a future King came
[00:30:58] came with constant pursuit by