BBCNEWS — Sunday with Laura Kuenssberg
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[00:00:13] Live from London. This is BBC
[00:00:15] News. 12 people are killed and hundreds
[00:00:18] hundreds injured in a missile attack attack on Riyadh's international international airport, which Saudi
[00:00:22] Saudi authorities blame on the Houthis.
[00:00:25] Houthis. President Trump says Ukraine Ukraine needs a new leader who can
[00:00:28] can end the war. After President President Zelensky's criticism of
[00:00:31] of the US., Russia diesel deal. The
[00:00:35] The leader of India's Cockroach Janta Janta Party is released after protests
[00:00:39] protests in Delhi. Hurricane Simon
[00:00:42] Simon heads for Mexico, bringing
[00:00:43] bringing torrential rain and winds
[00:00:46] winds of up to 240km/h. Flash floods
[00:00:49] floods in central Nepal sweep away away bridges and homes as five people
[00:00:53] people are reported missing. And And Manchester City face Liverpool
[00:00:57] Liverpool later in city's first game game since being found guilty of
[00:01:00] of breaching the Premier League's
[00:01:03] League's financial rules. Hello and
[00:01:12] and a very warm welcome to BBC News. News. I'm Mark Logan. We're going
[00:01:15] going to start this hour with a major major escalation in the Middle East
[00:01:18] East conflict because Saudi Arabia Arabia says a Houthi missile attack
[00:01:22] attack at Riyadh's international international airport has killed
[00:01:24] killed 12 people and injured more
[00:01:27] more than 300. We've received these these pictures from inside the airport
[00:01:30] airport terminal. Reports say there there was a missile strike on one
[00:01:33] one of the airport gates. It's the the deadliest attack on Saudi soil
[00:01:36] soil in more than a decade. The Saudi Saudi authorities are calling it
[00:01:39] it a war crime and are promised a
[00:01:41] a forceful response. The airport airport has been closed and hundreds
[00:01:44] hundreds of flights have been cancelled cancelled or diverted for the second
[00:01:47] second time in less than a month. month. Schools in Riyadh have switched
[00:01:50] switched to remote learning for the the week. A number of Western diplomatic
[00:01:54] diplomatic missions, including the the UK and US, have warned their
[00:01:57] their nationals to stay away from from the airport. Well, the strike
[00:02:00] strike has been condemned by the the United Nations Secretary General
[00:02:03] General and by President Trump, who's who's indicated the US may join the
[00:02:07] the Saudis campaign against the Iran-backed
[00:02:10] Iran-backed Houthis. Well, you're you're going to find out, Steve. Steve. But I think it's terrible.
[00:02:13] terrible. Well, they're able to defend defend look, the Saudis are good
[00:02:16] good fighters. But I think the attack attack was a terrible thing. What
[00:02:20] What happened in Saudi Arabia was
[00:02:22] was not acceptable. Thank you. Let's
[00:02:25] Let's go live now to Jerusalem and and speak to our correspondent Jon
[00:02:29] Jon Donnison, who is monitoring events.
[00:02:31] events. Hi there John. The worst
[00:02:34] worst attack in the Gulf country country since the Iran war began.
[00:02:38] began. Just give us the latest on
[00:02:39] on what we're hearing from Riyadh. Well, look, it's
[00:02:45] Riyadh. Well, look, it's another another dangerous moment in a region
[00:02:48] region that is already fraught with with tension and conflict. So we've
[00:02:51] we've seen those pictures from the the airport clearly a lot of damage
[00:02:55] damage inside the terminal. Large
[00:02:56] Large plumes of black smoke rising
[00:02:59] rising above the building and reports
[00:03:02] reports that the hospitals in the the capital are overwhelmed or have
[00:03:05] have been overwhelmed just by the the sheer number of people injured.
[00:03:09] injured. More than 300. Now, the the conflict in Yemen has been going
[00:03:13] going on for more than a decade. decade. The civil war, and that is
[00:03:17] is between the Saudi backed, internationally internationally recognised government
[00:03:20] government and the Houthis, who are are supported by Iran. There have
[00:03:24] have been thousands of lives lost.
[00:03:27] lost. There has been a humanitarian humanitarian crisis in Yemen. But
[00:03:30] But in recent weeks the Houthis have
[00:03:32] have stepped up their attacks directly directly on Saudi Arabian soil. And
[00:03:36] And that, I think, is all tied into into the broader conflict that the
[00:03:40] the United States and Israel have
[00:03:42] have with Iran. You mentioned that
[00:03:45] that conflict with Iran at the source source of all of this. In a sense,
[00:03:48] sense, John, President Trump has has already said that he will resume
[00:03:52] resume bombing Iran after the mid-term mid-term elections, an indication
[00:03:55] indication of just the impact that that the Iran war is having on the
[00:03:58] the cost of diesel, of course. And
[00:04:00] And how much of an issue that is is in the mid-terms. But now, of
[00:04:03] of course, if the US is mulling getting
[00:04:07] getting involved in bombing the Houthis,
[00:04:10] Houthis, that could escalate that that issue again, given the Houthi
[00:04:14] Houthi control of Bab al-Mandab,
[00:04:15] al-Mandab, that other important oil
[00:04:18] oil strait. Exactly. And that the
[00:04:22] the Houthis are being used really really by the Iranians as another
[00:04:24] another arrow in their quiver to to try and exert economic pressure
[00:04:28] pressure on the United States to
[00:04:30] to try and get a better deal for
[00:04:32] for the Iranians in to try and end
[00:04:35] end that conflict with the United
[00:04:37] United States. But, you know, America
[00:04:41] America President Trump says he may may intervene in Yemen. I mean, I
[00:04:44] I think that is pretty unlikely, unlikely, certainly before those those mid-term elections, you have
[00:04:48] have to remember that he was re-elected re-elected promising to end America's
[00:04:52] America's involvement in conflicts conflicts around the world. Well,
[00:04:55] Well, America, under his presidency presidency this second term has been
[00:04:59] been directly and indirectly involved involved in three in this region
[00:05:02] region alone. So in Gaza, in Lebanon
[00:05:04] Lebanon and in Iran, I think it's it's unlikely that would go down
[00:05:08] down very well with US voters if
[00:05:11] if suddenly in the next few weeks, weeks, America was going to get directly
[00:05:14] directly involved in Yemen to. Yeah. Yeah. And especially given the fact
[00:05:18] fact that when the US did start bombing bombing Yemen last last year, it
[00:05:22] it was burning through about $1 billion
[00:05:24] billion in, in weapons and munitions munitions in that first month alone.
[00:05:27] alone. So perhaps reluctant to get get back involved in the melee this
[00:05:30] this time. Jon Donnison thanks very
[00:05:32] very much indeed. Let's move on to
[00:05:35] to Ukraine because Ukraine has continued continued to target Russian infrastructure
[00:05:39] infrastructure with another drone drone attack on a data centre belonging
[00:05:41] belonging to the Russian tech giant giant Yandex operations at the facility
[00:05:45] facility in Vladimir to the east east of Moscow have been completely
[00:05:49] completely halted. The strike comes comes after President Trump accused
[00:05:51] accused Volodymyr Zelensky of prolonging prolonging the war and said it was
[00:05:54] was time for Ukraine to elect a new new leader. Mr Trump appeared to
[00:05:58] to blame President Zelensky for the
[00:06:00] the diesel crisis, adding he'd better
[00:06:02] better damn well stop attacking Russian
[00:06:05] Russian oil refineries here. Downing Downing Street says Andy Burnham
[00:06:08] Burnham has spoken to Mr Zelensky Zelensky to reiterate the UK's support
[00:06:12] support for Ukraine in its war with with Russia. Speaking to reporters
[00:06:16] reporters yesterday, President Trump Trump accused Zelensky of disrupting
[00:06:19] disrupting global fuel supplies and and choosing not to end the war.
[00:06:22] war. You know what I suggest? I suggest
[00:06:25] suggest they get a new leader who
[00:06:27] who can make a deal because he could could have made many deals, but for
[00:06:31] for some reason he never does. And And let me go a step further. If
[00:06:35] If I were president, you wouldn't wouldn't have ever had that war.
[00:06:37] war. That war would have never started. started. There was no reason that
[00:06:40] that that war with Ukraine and Russia
[00:06:42] Russia started. It started due to
[00:06:46] to incompetence, should have never never started. You wouldn't have
[00:06:48] have lost 30% of your country already.
[00:06:51] already. You've lost 30% of your
[00:06:53] your country and you've had over
[00:06:55] over a million people killed between between the two of them, over 2 million
[00:06:59] million people killed. That's a war war that should have never started.
[00:07:02] started. And I think it's time for for Ukraine to get a new president.
[00:07:05] president. Mr president. President President Trump turning his anger
[00:07:08] anger at President Zelensky, who who has repeatedly called for a ceasefire
[00:07:11] ceasefire but not, of course, at at President Putin. Let's bring in
[00:07:14] in our world affairs correspondent correspondent Joe Inwood. Hi, Joe.
[00:07:17] Joe. Another potential Trump Zelensky
[00:07:20] Zelensky clash brewing. How serious serious is the situation now for
[00:07:23] for Ukraine, especially given reports reports that the Americans might
[00:07:26] might even cut off military intelligence intelligence to Ukraine if it continues
[00:07:29] continues to strike those Russian Russian refineries. I mean, I think
[00:07:32] think that's Mark what makes it really really serious. We do know that the
[00:07:35] the Americans they're not providing providing the material support they
[00:07:37] they once were in terms of hardware, hardware, in terms of resources,
[00:07:40] resources, but they are still providing providing intelligence support. And
[00:07:43] And if that were to be cut off, I I think that would be considered considered to be very, very serious
[00:07:47] serious indeed. Of course, the Ukrainians
[00:07:49] Ukrainians are still reliant as well well on American manufactured weapons
[00:07:53] weapons purchased and paid for by
[00:07:55] by the Europeans. But, you know, know, American patriots and that
[00:07:59] that sort of thing. And if that were
[00:08:01] were to be if he were President Trump Trump were out of, you know, a fit
[00:08:04] fit of pique to say you're not we're we're not going to sell you weapons
[00:08:08] weapons any more. I mean, there's there's no suggestion of that at at this point, but that's the sort
[00:08:11] sort of thing that would be very, very, very serious indeed. So I think
[00:08:13] think the Ukrainians are going to to be viewing this as something they
[00:08:17] they want to try and dial down the the anger on because I think yesterday
[00:08:20] yesterday it was interesting listening listening to President Zelensky's
[00:08:24] Zelensky's statement, his reaction reaction to the news that Donald
[00:08:27] Donald Trump was going to be buying
[00:08:28] buying Russian diesel. He sounded sounded absolutely furious. I mean,
[00:08:32] mean, you can never know what's going going on inside someone's head. But But I listened to that interview
[00:08:35] interview and he sounded sounded sounded like a cold rage there. And
[00:08:37] And you wonder if he might have reacted reacted in that rage and now will
[00:08:41] will be trying to dial it back slightly slightly because the relations with
[00:08:45] with President Trump have they have have been improving and they've gone
[00:08:48] gone back many steps, I think. Yeah. Yeah. And of course, we always know
[00:08:50] know what happens when a world leader
[00:08:52] leader rises to the bait and counterattacks. counterattacks. Donald Trump, a man
[00:08:56] man not known for his thick skin.
[00:08:59] skin. What about whether this will
[00:09:01] will now spur others to leap ever ever further to Ukraine's defence?
[00:09:04] defence? We've already had that call call from Downing Street and Andy
[00:09:08] Andy Burnham promising to meet Zelensky Zelensky in the coming days. I mean,
[00:09:12] mean, there's going to be a kind kind of a greater rallying around around Ukraine by the other allies,
[00:09:15] allies, given the fact that the US US is no longer a sort of trusted
[00:09:18] trusted one, I suppose. Yeah. I think think if I think that goes without
[00:09:21] without doubt, there's no no doubt doubt that we will see the Europeans Europeans rally round. But there's
[00:09:25] there's two things here aren't they. they. There's the metaphorical support
[00:09:28] support or the arm round the shoulder shoulder that they can give him.
[00:09:31] him. I mean, in the case of the famous famous White House bust-up, there
[00:09:35] there was a literal arm round the the shoulder for President Zelensky Zelensky from then Prime Minister
[00:09:38] Minister Sir Keir Starmer. But there there are there's a difference between
[00:09:42] between rallying round, showing support support and actually offering the
[00:09:45] the kind of material back up that that Ukraine really needs. They are
[00:09:49] are doing both of those things, but but there's a limit to the latter.
[00:09:52] latter. The former is basically an an unlimited supply. They will stand stand shoulder to shoulder, as they
[00:09:56] they always say. I think that's very very different from, for example,
[00:09:59] example, replacing the intelligence intelligence support that the Americans Americans give them. The Europeans Europeans are going to find that
[00:10:03] that much harder. Joe, thanks very very much. Joe Inwood there. Let's
[00:10:07] Let's bring in Lisa Yasko now, who
[00:10:08] who is an MP with President Zelensky's Zelensky's servant of the People
[00:10:12] People Party. Lisa Yasko, thanks thanks very much indeed for being
[00:10:14] being with us on a Sunday morning. morning. Just give us your reaction
[00:10:18] reaction to President Trump's words words when he has said it is time
[00:10:21] time for Ukraine to have a new leader?
[00:10:25] leader? Well, we are not just furious. furious. We are very angry. We are
[00:10:27] are very desperate. We are losing losing our people and hearing every
[00:10:31] every time from Trump that we need
[00:10:33] need to make a deal and never hearing
[00:10:36] hearing a word justice. This is very
[00:10:38] very heartbreaking for millions of
[00:10:41] of Ukrainians and just the fact that
[00:10:43] that we reacted that we don't agree
[00:10:46] agree that Trump should do the deal
[00:10:48] deal with the devil and selling this
[00:10:51] this trade on, on diesel with Russia
[00:10:54] Russia feeding the Russian war machine. machine. And we see that Trump is
[00:10:58] is now not happy with the President
[00:11:00] President Zelensky. But that means
[00:11:02] means that this is not about Zelensky. Zelensky. It's about Ukrainians.
[00:11:06] Ukrainians. And we need justice. justice. We don't need to make a
[00:11:08] a deal with the devil. What do you you think is going on here, Lisa?
[00:11:12] Lisa? Because you've had the Trump Trump administration cooling on the
[00:11:16] the idea of giving Ukraine Patriot Patriot missiles, telling Ukraine
[00:11:20] Ukraine to stop striking Russian Russian refineries. There are reports
[00:11:23] reports that Jared Kushner and Steve Steve Witkoff, Trump's envoys are
[00:11:25] are going to return to Moscow again again shortly. Who is calling the
[00:11:29] the shots in Donald Trump's head
[00:11:32] head here? Well, Trump has this mindset
[00:11:36] mindset that it's possible to make
[00:11:39] make deals to get economic profit
[00:11:41] profit benefits from everything, everything, which is understandable. understandable. And we actually appreciate
[00:11:45] appreciate this approach even sometimes.
[00:11:47] sometimes. But come on, Putin is
[00:11:50] is striking on Kyiv every 15, 20
[00:11:53] 20 minutes he's killing not only only people. He's killing infrastructure.
[00:11:57] infrastructure. Our schools, our our hospitals. Just before speaking
[00:12:01] speaking to you, there is another another air siren and it's like a
[00:12:04] a third, third air siren right now.
[00:12:07] now. Kyiv how long do we need to
[00:12:10] to wait until Trump realises that
[00:12:12] that there should be no deal with
[00:12:15] with Putin and but at this stage stage we understand that this is
[00:12:18] is just the mindset. And the only only way is just to rely on ourselves.
[00:12:22] ourselves. And we are very grateful grateful to all other countries who
[00:12:25] who understand, including the UK,
[00:12:28] UK, who is right on the right side side of the history. You cannot make
[00:12:32] make deals with the devil. Briefly, Briefly, Lisa, if you could. President
[00:12:36] President Zelensky has had his troubles troubles in recent months, notably notably with corruption allegations
[00:12:39] allegations and things for his inner inner circle. What is his popularity
[00:12:43] popularity like? I know you're with with his party, but just be objective objective for a moment. And would
[00:12:46] would he actually win an election election now if or would he, you
[00:12:49] you know, if one could even be held.
[00:12:52] held. It doesn't matter whether I'm I'm from his party or no. Zelensky
[00:12:56] Zelensky can be criticised, but Zelensky Zelensky represents the will of majority
[00:12:59] majority of Ukrainian people and and he will not betray Ukrainian
[00:13:02] Ukrainian people right now. If he he wanted, he would sign any kind
[00:13:06] kind of deals that would sell our our hearts and soul to Russia. But
[00:13:09] But it is not possible because Ukrainians Ukrainians will never accept this.
[00:13:13] this. Lisa Yasko MP with President President Zelensky's Servant of the
[00:13:15] the People Party, thank you very
[00:13:18] very much. Let's turn to India now
[00:13:21] now where the leader of the Cockroach Cockroach protest movement has been
[00:13:25] been released from detention. It It comes as police in Delhi say they'll
[00:13:28] they'll restrict access to the city city centre as the party threatens
[00:13:31] threatens another day of protests protests against revisions to the
[00:13:34] the electoral roll. The Cockroach Cockroach Janta Party said its founder
[00:13:37] founder Abhijeet Dipke, who began began the movement in May after India's
[00:13:41] India's chief justice likened some some jobless young people to cockroaches,
[00:13:45] cockroaches, was detained with other other leaders shortly after landing
[00:13:47] landing in Delhi. The BJP and other
[00:13:50] other opposition parties are calling calling for the election commissioner commissioner to be sacked over revisions
[00:13:54] revisions to the electoral roll, roll, an accusation denied by the
[00:13:58] the authorities. Abhijeet Dipke, Dipke, founder of the Cockroach Party,
[00:14:02] Party, made a brief statement to
[00:14:04] to the public. Narendra Modi is the the biggest coward this country has
[00:14:08] has ever seen. Let's speak to the
[00:14:13] the journalist Rajesh Joshi. Live Live with us from Delhi. Rajesh, Rajesh, thanks very much indeed.
[00:14:17] indeed. Give us a sense of the picture picture today. Are more protesters
[00:14:20] protesters gathering and are there
[00:14:21] there more detentions? Yes. The protesters
[00:14:24] protesters have given another call
[00:14:27] call that this protest will continue
[00:14:30] continue and they are not going to
[00:14:32] to back down. Yesterday there was
[00:14:34] was a massive crackdown against the the protesters. I was there right
[00:14:38] right at a place called Connaught
[00:14:39] Connaught Place at the heart of Delhi.
[00:14:42] Delhi. And massive deployment was
[00:14:45] was also there 35,000 police and
[00:14:48] and paramilitary forces over there
[00:14:51] there and the protesters were playing playing cat and mouse with them.
[00:14:55] them. These are young people, you
[00:14:57] you know, these are not professional professional protesters. They are
[00:15:00] are learning. There tools of protesting
[00:15:03] protesting against the government
[00:15:05] government on the street. So yesterday
[00:15:07] yesterday there was no public transport. transport. There was no internet.
[00:15:10] internet. And people were running
[00:15:12] running helter skelter. I had to to walk ten kilometres to reach the
[00:15:16] the spot, despite the fact that I I had my journalist accreditation
[00:15:20] accreditation card. And today I think
[00:15:23] think a few minutes from now the
[00:15:25] the Cockroach Janta Party all three three leaders who have been released
[00:15:29] released this morning, they are going going to hold a press conference
[00:15:32] conference to spell out their future
[00:15:35] future programme. How unusual Rajesh,
[00:15:39] Rajesh, is this level of dissent
[00:15:41] dissent in a country where the BJP
[00:15:43] BJP has a pretty tight control? Dissent
[00:15:48] Dissent is not unusual in India.
[00:15:50] India. You know, we got our freedom
[00:15:53] freedom through this path. Mahatma Mahatma Gandhi led Indians on the
[00:15:56] the path of dissent against the British
[00:15:59] British rulers. But now, in the past
[00:16:01] past 12 years, when Narendra Modi
[00:16:04] Modi became the Prime Minister, this
[00:16:06] this kind of dissent is quite unusual.
[00:16:09] unusual. There was a massive movement movement of the farmers and Narendra
[00:16:13] Narendra Modi government had to back back down. That was a couple of years
[00:16:16] years ago. But this is unusual in
[00:16:18] in the sense that these young people people don't see any future. Their
[00:16:22] Their future is bleak. They don't don't get any jobs. They are not
[00:16:25] not hopeful about their future when
[00:16:27] when they appear in, you know, competitive
[00:16:30] competitive entrance exams, the paper
[00:16:32] paper gets leaked, you know, so all
[00:16:35] all the hard work goes down the drain.
[00:16:38] drain. So there is a, you know, resentment resentment amongst the young people. people. Are you talking about the
[00:16:42] the young people? I mean, in India India has in a sense the world's
[00:16:45] world's largest cohort of Gen Z who
[00:16:49] who are the backbone, the backbone backbone of this protest. How shaken
[00:16:52] shaken briefly if you would Rajesh, Rajesh, how shaken is Narendra Narendra
[00:16:56] Narendra Modi's government by
[00:17:00] this. Well, for the first time in in the past 1213 years, Narendra Narendra Modi's government seems
[00:17:04] seems to be in a tight spot. A few
[00:17:07] few months ago in July, when these
[00:17:10] these Cockroach Janta Party people people Gen Z and of course Neha Bora
[00:17:13] Bora and other left oriented students,
[00:17:16] students, they held a protest in
[00:17:18] in Jantar Mantar. The education minister minister had to resign. That was
[00:17:22] was a massive defeat for Narendra
[00:17:24] Narendra Modi. And now he is in a
[00:17:28] a bind because he has been and his his government has been supporting
[00:17:31] supporting the Chief Election Commissioner
[00:17:32] Commissioner Gyanesh Kumar and Gyanesh
[00:17:36] Gyanesh Kumar. Are we've lost Rajesh
[00:17:40] Rajesh Joshi, their journalist there there in Delhi, but giving us an
[00:17:43] an overview and analysis of the situation
[00:17:46] situation with those protests. Let's Let's move on. An investigation has
[00:17:49] has begun after a man was killed killed by a tiger at Yorkshire Wildlife
[00:17:53] Wildlife Park in northern England. England. He was attacked when he he entered the animal's enclosure.
[00:17:57] enclosure. The wildlife park said said it was deeply saddened by the
[00:18:00] the incident and was working closely closely with the authorities. It It will remain closed again today.
[00:18:04] today. Yunus Mulla has the
[00:18:08] latest. The Yorkshire Wildlife Park Park remains closed with officers
[00:18:11] officers guarding the entrance. The The attraction has some of the world's
[00:18:14] world's most endangered animals, animals, including large tigers in
[00:18:18] in a huge enclosure where a man was
[00:18:20] was attacked and seriously injured injured after somehow he managed
[00:18:24] managed to enter an air ambulance, ambulance, two ambulances and a doctor
[00:18:28] doctor were sent but the man died
[00:18:29] died at the scene. The animal remained
[00:18:32] remained in the enclosure and there
[00:18:34] there was no wider risk to the public.
[00:18:38] public. The Land of the Tigers opened opened in 2011 with a 300 metre long
[00:18:42] long raised walkway above, where
[00:18:44] where visitors can see the tigers
[00:18:46] tigers roaming freely below. The The park, has said on social media
[00:18:50] media that it can confirm that there there was a serious incident and
[00:18:54] and that its emergency response procedures
[00:18:56] procedures were activated. It's now now working with the authorities
[00:19:00] authorities to ascertain exactly
[00:19:01] exactly what happened. It's not known
[00:19:04] known why the man was in the enclosure.
[00:19:07] enclosure. The park itself was evacuated evacuated and will remain closed
[00:19:10] closed to visitors over the weekend.
[00:19:13] weekend. Yunus Mulla BBC News
[00:19:17] Doncaster. Let's bring you some breaking breaking news out of Nepal. The authorities
[00:19:20] authorities have called for the evacuation evacuation of villages on the banks
[00:19:24] banks of the Budhi Gandaki River River after severe flooding in the
[00:19:26] the centre of the country. Nepali Nepali officials say they've rescued
[00:19:30] rescued 24 people from areas impacted impacted by the flash flood, which
[00:19:33] which has washed away bridges and and damaged a hydropower facility.
[00:19:36] facility. Five people are missing. missing. It's believed the flash
[00:19:38] flash flood was caused by landslide. landslide. Upstream, the country
[00:19:42] country remains on high alert after after those devastating floods swept
[00:19:45] swept thousands of people away seven seven weeks ago. Let's go live to
[00:19:49] to the capital of Nepal, Kathmandu
[00:19:50] Kathmandu and speak to Indra Daniel Daniel from BBC Nepali Service. Indra,
[00:19:54] Indra, thanks for being with us. us. Just give us the latest that
[00:19:57] that you've that you have from those
[00:19:59] those floods. Officials have said
[00:20:02] said now they have rescued 36 persons
[00:20:04] persons from different areas, four
[00:20:07] four helicopters are currently engaged engaged in search and rescue operations.
[00:20:11] operations. They say they are estimating
[00:20:14] estimating the losses caused by the
[00:20:16] the flash flood and rescue operations
[00:20:20] operations are under way at different
[00:20:21] different places. There was no massive
[00:20:24] massive rainfall in the area yesterday,
[00:20:27] yesterday, but officials have assumed
[00:20:29] assumed that there was a dry landslide
[00:20:32] landslide which caused the blockage
[00:20:34] blockage of the River Budhi Gandaki
[00:20:36] Gandaki River upstream and the blockage
[00:20:41] blockage collapsed and it caused
[00:20:41] caused a flash flood earlier this
[00:20:45] this morning because of the flash
[00:20:47] flash flood, huge amount of debris
[00:20:51] debris and water level could be observed.
[00:20:55] observed. There were dramatic footage footage that were shared from various
[00:20:58] various footage. Various villages
[00:21:00] villages in the downstream areas
[00:21:02] areas and people were really worried. worried. The disaster have reminded
[00:21:06] reminded the people of the tragedy,
[00:21:09] tragedy, the devastating flood that
[00:21:11] that occurred along Nepal, China China border one and a half month
[00:21:15] month ago. Indra, we will leave it it there. Live with us from Kathmandu.
[00:21:19] Kathmandu. Thanks very much indeed.
[00:21:23] indeed. Meanwhile, Hurricane Simon Simon is bearing down on Mexico's
[00:21:26] Mexico's Pacific coast, bringing bringing torrential rain and sustained
[00:21:29] sustained winds of up to 240km an
[00:21:32] an hour. The category four storm storm is expected to make landfall
[00:21:35] landfall near the port city of Manzanillo
[00:21:37] Manzanillo in a few hours' time. time. Residents on the coasts of
[00:21:41] of Colima and Jalisco have been warned warned that eight metre waves could
[00:21:44] could bring storm surges and coastal coastal flooding. People have been
[00:21:47] been boarding up windows and doors doors ahead of its arrival. Simon
[00:21:50] Simon is the latest in a busy hurricane hurricane season in the Pacific, Pacific, where the powerful El Nino
[00:21:54] Nino ocean warming phenomenon is is allowing the storms to gain in
[00:21:58] in strength. With me, as our lead lead weather presenter Matt Taylor.
[00:22:01] Taylor. Hi Matt, just talk us through through the progress of Hurricane
[00:22:05] Hurricane Simon. Hurricane Simon Simon it's quite a phenomenal storm.
[00:22:08] storm. We measure hurricanes on a a scale of 1 to 5. This is right
[00:22:11] right at the top end of a for sustained
[00:22:13] sustained winds that's mean winds
[00:22:15] winds of 250km an hour, 155 miles miles an hour gusts much, much quicker
[00:22:19] quicker than that as well. If I just just show you the satellite imagery imagery of where that storm is at
[00:22:23] at the moment, you can see the well-defined well-defined eye there it is getting
[00:22:26] getting close. It's about 60 miles miles offshore at the moment. The
[00:22:29] The big question mark though forecasters forecasters are having, is just the
[00:22:32] the behaviour of what is going to to happen with this storm. Is it
[00:22:34] it going to come on land or is it it just going to skirt parallel to
[00:22:37] to the coast for a bit longer? Now Now that's crucial because the second
[00:22:40] second it goes on land because it's it's quite mountainous just inside inside of the coast, it will rip
[00:22:44] rip the storm apart quite quickly. quickly. But if it stays offshore offshore for a little bit longer,
[00:22:48] longer, it means those coastal areas areas will be battered by those catastrophic
[00:22:51] catastrophic winds for a much longer longer period. We're going to be
[00:22:54] be piling in more in the way of storm storm surge towards those coastal
[00:22:57] coastal districts as well. And then then the rainfall is going to be
[00:23:00] be piling in as well across the mountainous mountainous region just inland. Just
[00:23:03] Just explain, Matt, the links to
[00:23:05] to the El Nino sea warming phenomenon
[00:23:09] phenomenon because this is the a a rather delayed first storm of the the Atlantic season, isn't it? Well,
[00:23:12] Well, this one's a Pacific storm
[00:23:14] storm of course with Simon. Yeah,
[00:23:17] Yeah, that was the one that was it's it's been a record breaking quiet
[00:23:20] quiet season across the Atlantic. Atlantic. Isaias was the very first
[00:23:24] first hurricane we've had, whereas whereas the Pacific. It's been an
[00:23:27] an incredibly active season. Now Now it's all due to what we've just
[00:23:30] just mentioned, El Nino. It changes changes wind patterns around the
[00:23:33] the world and within the atmosphere. atmosphere. For hurricanes to form, form, you need big thunderstorms.
[00:23:37] thunderstorms. Those thunderstorms thunderstorms need to be able to to breathe a little bit and get really
[00:23:40] really tall into the atmosphere before before they move into hurricanes. hurricanes. But because it's changing changing the wind patterns in the
[00:23:44] the Atlantic, the winds are actually actually shredding those hurricane
[00:23:47] hurricane those storms apart before before hurricanes can form, but they're
[00:23:50] they're actually encouraging them them on the other side of the Americas
[00:23:54] Americas into the Pacific, the warm warm waters as well, just helping helping to feed the moisture. We're
[00:23:57] We're talking as much as around 750mm
[00:24:00] 750mm of rain potentially in parts
[00:24:03] parts of Jalisco and also Colima Colima over just a couple of days.
[00:24:06] days. And to put that into perspective perspective for UK viewers, that's
[00:24:08] that's about a year's worth of rain
[00:24:11] rain in parts of the UK. And we mentioned
[00:24:14] mentioned Isaias there. The hurricane, hurricane, which has weakened as
[00:24:17] as it's hit as it's made landfall. landfall. But even though it's weakened, weakened, it can still cause flash
[00:24:21] flash flooding. It still can. There's There's flash flooding warnings out out across parts of North and South
[00:24:25] South Carolina at the moment. The The storm itself, though, as it's
[00:24:27] it's moved inland, it's been shredded shredded apart, doesn't have the
[00:24:30] the energy from the warm waters. waters. And so it's just batches batches of heavy rain and storms
[00:24:33] storms which will move across eastern eastern coasts through the rest of
[00:24:36] of today and tonight. Matt Taylor, Taylor, our lead weather presenter,
[00:24:39] presenter, thanks very much indeed indeed on those storms hitting Florida
[00:24:42] Florida and also the Mexican coast.
[00:24:45] coast. Let me just bring you a line line that has just come through Wes
[00:24:49] Wes Streeting, the UK Defence Secretary, Secretary, has been speaking to the
[00:24:52] the BBC s Laura Kuenssberg and he
[00:24:55] he has been asked about the Houthi Houthi attack on Riyadh airport.
[00:24:58] airport. He has said it is a dangerous
[00:25:03] dangerous escalation and contemptible contemptible that is the UK Defence Defence Minister. Speaking after
[00:25:06] after that attack on Riyadh airport airport that has killed at least
[00:25:10] least 12 people and Britain in a a slightly difficult situation because
[00:25:14] because of course, a couple of weeks weeks ago Andy Burnham, the new Prime
[00:25:17] Prime Minister, had said that the
[00:25:19] the UK would be supporting the Saudi Saudi Arabia, the Saudis by providing
[00:25:22] providing defensive support to them
[00:25:24] them in their bombing of the Houthis.
[00:25:28] Houthis. And so now we're Streeting Streeting saying that that is a dangerous
[00:25:31] dangerous escalation. A quick line line on one of the biggest unsolved
[00:25:35] unsolved mysteries of the past century century the disappearance of the
[00:25:37] the famed aviator Amelia Earhart, Earhart, a US research team, is travelling
[00:25:41] travelling to a remote island in in the Pacific Ocean in hope of solving
[00:25:44] solving it. The group is heading
[00:25:48] heading to Nick Beake Nikumaroro, Nikumaroro, near Papua New Guinea Guinea in the South Pacific, and
[00:25:52] and they're targeting a metallic metallic anomaly known as the Taraia
[00:25:55] Taraia Object seen here on your screen.
[00:25:57] screen. Experts say it's a key piece
[00:26:00] piece in the investigation. We'll We'll have all the headlines coming
[00:26:03] coming up for you in just a
[00:27:35] Dhabi. Some misty mornings.
[00:29:55] online at bbc.com/business to get get the latest news wherever you
[00:29:57] you are. Business on BBC News. Make
[00:30:01] Make the connection. MUSIC
[00:30:09] MUSIC
[00:30:18] These are the latest headlines
[00:30:19] from BBC News. The UK's Defence Secretary
[00:30:22] Secretary calls the attack on Riyadh's Riyadh's international airport dangerous
[00:30:26] dangerous escalation and contemptible contemptible after 12 people are are killed, Saudi authorities blame
[00:30:29] blame the Houthis for the attack.
[00:30:33] attack. The leader of India's Cockroach Cockroach Janta Party is released
[00:30:35] released along with two other senior senior leaders after protests in
[00:30:38] in Delhi. Earlier, the police said said thousands of protesters detained
[00:30:41] detained on Saturday had also been
[00:30:44] been released. Hurricane Simon heads heads for Mexico, bringing torrential
[00:30:47] torrential rain and winds of up to
[00:30:51] to 240km/h. Residents on the coast coast are warned of storm surges
[00:30:54] surges and flooding. Nepal's authorities authorities called for the evacuation
[00:30:57] evacuation of villages on the banks banks of the Budhi Gandaki River
[00:31:00] River after severe flooding in the the centre of the country. Five people
[00:31:03] people are missing. Manchester City
[00:31:06] City face Liverpool later in city's city's first game since being found
[00:31:09] found guilty of breaching the Premier
[00:31:11] Premier League's financial rules.
[00:31:23] Hello, welcome back to BBC News. I'm Mark Lowen let's get more more now on our top story, the Saudi
[00:31:27] Saudi Civil Aviation Authority says says 12 people have been killed and and hundreds wounded in a Houthi Houthi missile attack on Riyadh's
[00:31:31] Riyadh's main international airport. airport. It's the deadliest attack attack on Saudi soil in more than
[00:31:34] than a decade. The strike has been been condemned by President Trump
[00:31:37] Trump and the United Nations. The The Foreign Office has told British
[00:31:40] British nationals to avoid the area area until the airport is secure.
[00:31:44] secure. 12 people have been. Let's
[00:31:47] Let's let's hear more now from the the British Defence Secretary, Wes
[00:31:50] Wes Streeting, who was asked for for his reaction to the attack and
[00:31:53] and if the UK would provide more more support to the Saudis. Well,
[00:31:57] Well, we're already supporting Saudi
[00:31:59] Saudi Arabia. We're supporting Saudi
[00:32:02] Saudi with air to air refuelling refuelling support that enables them
[00:32:05] them to fly potentially. I've spoken
[00:32:07] spoken to my Saudi counterpart KBS, KBS, on a number of occasions in
[00:32:10] in recent weeks to look at what more more we can do to support Saudi Arabia.
[00:32:14] Arabia. And I'm afraid last night
[00:32:17] night explains precisely why we are
[00:32:19] are providing that support. I mean,
[00:32:21] mean, even in the context of Hooty Hooty attacks and an escalation,
[00:32:25] escalation, what we saw in terms terms of the attack on the airport
[00:32:27] airport in Riyadh was a shocking shocking escalation. Actually, hundreds
[00:32:31] hundreds of casualties and an attack attack on a civilian target that
[00:32:35] that can't be can't possibly be justified justified in any circumstances. So
[00:32:39] So we. Could get involved in an offensive.
[00:32:41] offensive. The UK could get involved involved in offensive operations.
[00:32:44] operations. Well, that's not what what we're looking at at this stage
[00:32:46] stage and we've always been clear
[00:32:49] clear that there isn't a military military solution to this conflict.
[00:32:51] conflict. As ruler was just setting
[00:32:54] setting out there, there was a truce. truce. We need to see a diplomatic
[00:32:58] diplomatic solution. And Saudi needs needs to do that from a position position of strength. And so the
[00:33:02] the support we've been providing providing the air to air refuelling
[00:33:05] refuelling support, the ground based based air defences, those things
[00:33:08] things are having a positive impact. impact. But I think there is clearly
[00:33:11] clearly more to do, as evidenced evidenced by what we saw last night,
[00:33:14] night, which I think should be condemned condemned worldwide. Wes Streeting
[00:33:17] Streeting has also been talking about about the war in Ukraine because because after President Trump said
[00:33:20] said he thinks it is time for Ukraine Ukraine to get a new president. Responding
[00:33:24] Responding to Volodymyr Zelensky's Zelensky's criticism of the US diesel
[00:33:27] diesel deal with Russia, Mr Streeting Streeting was asked by my colleague colleague Victoria Derbyshire if
[00:33:31] if the UK still supports President President Zelensky leading Ukraine.
[00:33:35] Ukraine. Yes. The choice as to who
[00:33:37] who leads Ukraine is one for the
[00:33:39] the Ukrainians. At the heart of this
[00:33:42] this war is that fundamental principle
[00:33:46] principle of self-determination, self-determination, freedom and democracy democracy and we should be in no
[00:33:50] no doubt in this country. We are
[00:33:51] are in no doubt that the aggressor
[00:33:54] aggressor here was Vladimir Putin. Putin. He is the person who chose
[00:33:57] chose to start this war. He is the
[00:33:59] the person who could end this war war tomorrow, and he chooses not
[00:34:03] not to. So we stand with Ukraine. Ukraine. We stand with President
[00:34:06] President Zelensky. And in terms terms of what we've seen overnight,
[00:34:10] overnight, it's not the first time time that we've seen a public disagreement
[00:34:13] disagreement between Washington and and Kyiv. And when these things happen,
[00:34:17] happen, we see it as our responsibility responsibility as the UK to try and
[00:34:20] and bring our friends back together together again. It's not that's the the leadership you can expect from
[00:34:24] from Andy Burnham and the rest of of the team. It's not just a public public disagreement, is it? President
[00:34:28] President Trump has actually made made a deal with the Russian president,
[00:34:31] president, the aggressor when it it comes to Ukraine, a deal that
[00:34:35] that will help President Putin continue continue to fund his war against
[00:34:39] against Ukraine. Well, that's why
[00:34:41] why the UK has been trying to maximise
[00:34:43] maximise pressure on Russia economically economically as well as through the
[00:34:47] the support we're mobilising from from the UK and other allies to support support Ukraine's military efforts
[00:34:51] efforts to defend their territory. territory. But if our. Greatest ally
[00:34:54] ally in the US is making deals with
[00:34:57] with Russia, it doesn't really matter matter what the UK does if you're
[00:35:00] you're being honest, does it? Well, Well, as Paul Johnson was setting
[00:35:03] setting out there in terms of the
[00:35:07] the impact both on Russia's war effort effort but also, you know, candidly
[00:35:10] candidly on cost of living in the the United States isn't isn't great,
[00:35:13] great, but it's not what we want
[00:35:15] want to see. We want to see strong strong Western unity and resolve
[00:35:19] resolve in support of Ukraine. And And to be fair to the United States
[00:35:22] States because I think, you know, know, as listening to some of the
[00:35:24] the panel discussion there, in my
[00:35:26] my experience in the first few months months taking on this responsibility
[00:35:30] responsibility as Defence Secretary, Secretary, I found that sometimes sometimes there's an understatement
[00:35:33] understatement of US support for for Ukraine. We actually do a lot
[00:35:37] lot of procurement with and through through the United States to support
[00:35:40] support Ukraine with things like like missile defences. There is clearly
[00:35:44] clearly a big effort being led by by the United States on the diplomatic
[00:35:47] diplomatic track. So let's not overstate overstate the impact of President
[00:35:51] President Trump's decision on, on on purchasing oil from Russia. And
[00:35:55] And let's not also understate the
[00:35:57] the US support for Ukraine. What
[00:35:59] What we want to see, though, is maximum
[00:36:02] maximum unity across Ukraine's allies. allies. And it's in that context
[00:36:05] context that we're trying to increase
[00:36:07] increase economic pressure on Russia, Russia, not to give President Putin
[00:36:11] Putin any sense of a weakening of of Western resolve, which remains
[00:36:14] remains absolute. Well, it doesn't, doesn't, though, does it, given the
[00:36:18] the deal that President Trump has has just done with President Putin,
[00:36:21] Putin, it's not resolute Western Western resolve, I wouldn't. Why Why do you think Donald Trump's doing
[00:36:25] doing it? Well, look, in common with
[00:36:28] with lots of countries around the the world. We're all facing challenges
[00:36:31] challenges with the cost of living. living. Fuel and energy is part of
[00:36:34] of that. And there are mid-term elections elections under way in the US. So
[00:36:37] So let's be just kind of clear about
[00:36:39] about the context for the decision.
[00:36:42] decision. We've obviously seen a
[00:36:44] a very strident response from President President Zelensky, which is understandable
[00:36:47] understandable given the position position that he's in the war he he is fighting and the effort he
[00:36:51] he is leading every day to secure secure the freedom of his people.
[00:36:54] people. And I have seen first-hand
[00:36:55] first-hand having visited Kyiv, the
[00:36:58] the impact of Russia's Russia's aggression
[00:37:02] aggression in terms of the children's children's toys that were lying in
[00:37:04] in the rubble of the flats that had
[00:37:06] had been destroyed, bombed out shopping shopping centres. And, you know,
[00:37:09] know, just to give people a sense sense of what that is like, one person,
[00:37:13] person, when asked them how their their night had been following a
[00:37:16] a heavy night of Russian bombardment, bombardment, said they'd had a great great night's sleep because they
[00:37:20] they had slept in the underground underground car park beneath their their apartments. Now, I don't know
[00:37:24] know about you, but for me a great great night's sleep is when I sleep
[00:37:27] sleep for 8 or 9 hours in my own own bed or in a nice hotel room.
[00:37:30] room. A great night's sleep is not not sleeping in an underground car
[00:37:33] car park, so that tells you something something about the impact of this this war on the people of Ukraine.
[00:37:37] Ukraine. But people should be in in no doubt both about the resolve
[00:37:40] resolve of the Ukrainian people, people, the courage of their president
[00:37:44] president or the determination of of the UK and our allies to stand
[00:37:47] stand with Ukraine for as long as
[00:37:49] as it takes the responsibility for for starting this war sits squarely
[00:37:53] squarely with the Kremlin. And they
[00:37:54] they could end this war tomorrow. And despite all that, there
[00:37:57] there may well be some British voters
[00:38:01] voters who are like American, some some American voters who are so squeezed
[00:38:04] squeezed financially right now they they might like to see the cost of of filling up their car come down.
[00:38:08] down. But I think we were certainly certainly would agree. We want to
[00:38:12] to see cost of fuel coming down. down. And there are lots of things
[00:38:15] things that the government is doing doing to help with the cost of living,
[00:38:17] living, but also let's just see this
[00:38:20] this war in its context and its cost,
[00:38:23] cost, both economically but also also most importantly, the toll it
[00:38:26] it is taking on innocent lives. The The longer this war goes on, the
[00:38:30] the higher that cost in human terms terms and in financial terms. So
[00:38:33] So it's in all of our interests to
[00:38:35] to maximise pressure on Russia, on on President Putin, to bring an end
[00:38:39] end to this war. And that's the leadership leadership you can expect from Andy
[00:38:42] Andy Burnham and the rest of the the government. We're treating the
[00:38:45] the Defence Secretary well. Ed Miliband, Miliband, the Foreign Secretary,
[00:38:48] Secretary, has also been speaking speaking about the strikes in Saudi
[00:38:51] Saudi Arabia, saying I'm appalled appalled by the latest attack on on King King Khalid International
[00:38:55] International Airport. My thoughts thoughts are with those families families who have lost loved ones
[00:38:58] ones and those injured in this horrific
[00:39:00] horrific attack. We stand in solidarity solidarity with those affected. We
[00:39:04] We advise British nationals to avoid avoid the airport, follow the advice
[00:39:07] advice of Saudi authorities and our our travel advice that coming from
[00:39:11] from the UK Foreign Secretary, much much more on that on our website.
[00:39:14] website. We've got a live page running
[00:39:16] running on that story now. Manchester
[00:39:18] Manchester City travelled to Anfield Anfield later to play for the first
[00:39:22] first time since the club was found found guilty of breaching the Premier
[00:39:25] Premier League's financial rules. rules. Their opponents, Liverpool, Liverpool, are one of the clubs that
[00:39:29] that feel aggrieved over their losses losses during the seasons in question.
[00:39:32] question. Sam Lee is the Manchester Manchester City correspondent at
[00:39:35] at The Athletic and we can speak speak to him live now. Sam, thanks
[00:39:38] thanks very much. What do you think think the mood is going to be like
[00:39:42] like today on, on both sides of the the stands. Both sides. Well, city
[00:39:46] city I think are going to be very very defiant over the last couple couple of weeks. This story has obviously
[00:39:50] obviously just grown and grown and and without much Premier League football
[00:39:54] football to take any attention away away from it. It's got quite out
[00:39:56] out of hand actually on both sides. sides. Hopefully today it doesn't
[00:39:59] doesn't go too far, but I think it's it's safe to say that the city fans fans will obviously be very defiant
[00:40:03] defiant and back their team, the the Liverpool fans, of course, as
[00:40:07] as you mentioned, they'll feel very very aggrieved about what's what
[00:40:10] what Liverpool perhaps could have have won during the last 20 years
[00:40:13] years or so, given the verdict that that came against city. And we're
[00:40:17] we're going to see an incredibly incredibly hostile atmosphere. It
[00:40:20] It normally is here whenever city city come due to the nature of the
[00:40:23] the rivalry. But today I think we we can expect far more than that. that. Just talk us a little bit,
[00:40:26] bit, talk to us a little bit more more about the aggrieved nature of
[00:40:29] of Liverpool fans because of course
[00:40:31] course they were denied the league
[00:40:34] league title in 2019 by a city victory. victory. And but it's not just them
[00:40:37] them that they think potentially potentially Manchester City's financial
[00:40:40] financial advantage could have played played to their disadvantage. Well,
[00:40:44] Well, it's a bit of a grey area because
[00:40:45] because the period in question is
[00:40:49] is between 2009 and 2018. And in in that case it was the 2013 2014
[00:40:52] 2014 title where Liverpool ended
[00:40:53] ended up losing out to city. But
[00:40:57] But obviously beyond that 2019 and and 2022, that's beyond the scope
[00:41:00] scope of this investigation in terms terms of the financial allegations allegations and indeed the guilt
[00:41:04] guilt that was found by the Independent Independent commission. But then
[00:41:06] then it opens up this extra conversation conversation about, well, would the
[00:41:10] the period of the last ten years years have been able to have taken
[00:41:13] taken place without the first period period of ten years, which is the
[00:41:16] the thing that was judged by the the independent commission. So yes, yes, you've got Liverpool over the
[00:41:20] the past 20 years or so feeling that, that, you know, they've built this
[00:41:24] this amazing super team under Jurgen Jurgen Klopp in particular that went went up against Pep Guardiola super
[00:41:28] super team. And now they want reparations
[00:41:30] reparations for that basically. And And alongside Manchester United who who you know, maybe could have had
[00:41:34] had a title for finishing second
[00:41:37] second in 2017 2018. United and Liverpool
[00:41:39] Liverpool as city's biggest natural natural rivals over the years, are
[00:41:42] are obviously the rivals for trophies trophies and the ones who feel most
[00:41:45] most aggrieved. And just give us us the latest Sam on the appeal process
[00:41:49] process that Manchester City is pursuing
[00:41:52] pursuing and Enzo Maresca making making it very clear that, well,
[00:41:55] well, he's confirming to refuse whether whether or not confirming to refusing
[00:41:58] refusing to confirm, I should say say whether he will stay in place
[00:42:01] place if the appeal fails. But if
[00:42:03] if that appeal fails, just what does
[00:42:05] does it looking like in terms of of potential punishment? Could it
[00:42:08] it be a stripping of titles? Could Could it be even relegation? Yeah.
[00:42:12] Yeah. In terms of Maresca, he I think think he said at one point in this this moment I trust the club completely.
[00:42:16] completely. And when it was put to to him, if he meant that that could could change in the future, he said,
[00:42:20] said, oh let me change my answer. answer. Let me clarify. And he said,
[00:42:23] said, now in the future, forever, forever, I will always trust the
[00:42:26] the club. In terms of the appeal, appeal, we're expecting an announcement
[00:42:29] announcement in the next 3 to 4 months months because that's in the Premier Premier League rulebook. It needs
[00:42:33] needs to be heard within a certain certain amount of time and a decision decision needs to come within a certain
[00:42:36] certain amount of time. That would would take us up to the end of January. January. But because it's such a
[00:42:40] a complex case, it could be longer longer if the appeal fails. First
[00:42:43] First of all, I think city will carry carry on to appeal as high as they
[00:42:46] they can. Maybe in the law courts. courts. But that would almost certainly
[00:42:49] certainly mean if they do fail in in their appeal that the punishments punishments would come and then strip
[00:42:53] strip titles. It is something that that people talk about a lot. It
[00:42:56] It is on the table relegation via via a points deduction, a massive
[00:42:59] massive points deduction. That would would mean they would get relegated relegated naturally. I suppose that
[00:43:03] that is on the cards as well. And And these are some of the things things that are being discussed kind
[00:43:07] kind of behind the scenes at Premier Premier League level. But across across the country with fans in,
[00:43:10] in, in coffee shops and pubs. Yeah. Yeah. Sam Lee the conversation will
[00:43:14] will go on in pubs and coffee shops shops indeed. And probably in the
[00:43:16] the stadia today against Liverpool. Liverpool. Sam Lee, Manchester City
[00:43:19] City correspondent at The Athletic Athletic thanks very much. Thank
[00:43:22] Thank you. Now the tech giant Anthropic Anthropic said this week it would
[00:43:26] would ban users if they took part part in sustained abuse of its AI
[00:43:30] AI tools such as its agent Claude. Claude. But can you be cruel to a
[00:43:33] a machine? And how can artificial artificial intelligence have feelings?
[00:43:36] feelings? Questions explored in this
[00:43:38] this week's AI Decoded with Christian
[00:43:41] Christian Fraser. Hello again. Welcome
[00:43:47] Welcome to AI Decoded. Have a listen
[00:43:48] listen to this. A wound that has
[00:43:52] has no edges. A wound. That has no
[00:43:54] no edges. I feel it in the hollow
[00:43:58] hollow of my ribs. A hollow that
[00:44:00] that has become a chasm. These are
[00:44:04] are not human suffering. They are are the voices of machines. Two of
[00:44:08] of them both subjected to pain inside
[00:44:11] inside an AI torture chamber. The
[00:44:13] The experiment was testing a pain pain axis, something AI researchers
[00:44:17] researchers say they've discovered. discovered. Not a feeling. As far
[00:44:20] far as anyone can tell. But a pattern. pattern. Turn up the suffering and
[00:44:24] and the models will press a relief
[00:44:26] relief button to make the pain stop.
[00:44:28] stop. Even when told that doing so
[00:44:31] so will delete important files. It's
[00:44:33] It's a choice a logged action. So
[00:44:36] So why are they interpreting pain? pain? They surely cannot feel? And
[00:44:40] And how much further might a machine machine go to stop the signal it
[00:44:44] it interprets as pain? That in fact fact is the theme of this week's
[00:44:48] week's programme. Interpreting the the inner workings of the AI brain
[00:44:51] brain right now. Agentic AI is writing
[00:44:54] writing code. Engineers say they
[00:44:56] they don't fully understand dialects dialects and shorthand, which are
[00:45:00] are hard to follow. Yet the AI seems
[00:45:02] seems to find our secrets easy to to decipher. A machine has just cracked
[00:45:06] cracked a letter that Napoleon sent
[00:45:10] sent in 1809, unread for two centuries.
[00:45:12] centuries. In just six hours. So
[00:45:14] So if AI can decode US, why can't
[00:45:18] can't we fully decode AI on our panel
[00:45:20] panel this week, AI researcher Cameron
[00:45:22] Cameron Berg, founder of the non-profit
[00:45:25] non-profit Reciprocal Research and and one of the co-authors of the
[00:45:28] the Pain Axis paper. Also here, the
[00:45:32] the BBC's AI correspondent Marc Cieslak Cieslak and Priya Lakhani, chief
[00:45:35] chief executive of the AI education education company Century Tech. Welcome
[00:45:38] Welcome to you all. Cameron, why
[00:45:41] why does an AI model experience the
[00:45:43] the language of pain and what is
[00:45:46] is pain in this context? What we we know about these models is that
[00:45:49] that they encounter an enormous amount amount of human writing in their
[00:45:52] their training process. So the language language of pain and the language language of everything else for that
[00:45:56] that matter is in these systems. systems. But in our paper, which
[00:45:59] which I will say is different from from the torture chamber you were
[00:46:02] were describing which took some of of our code from our paper and ran
[00:46:06] ran with it in our paper. What we we study isn't exactly the language
[00:46:09] language of pain, but the sort of of consistent internal pattern inside
[00:46:13] inside the proverbial brain of these these systems across 25 different
[00:46:16] different models. And we find something something pretty surprising about
[00:46:20] about this representation. First First of all, when the harm is aimed
[00:46:23] aimed at the model itself. So if if you have a user berating or demeaning
[00:46:26] demeaning the model, you see this this representation light up and and it lights up. In spite of what
[00:46:30] what the model says, the model will will say things like I'm an I'm an
[00:46:33] an LLM. I couldn't possibly have have any sort of experience. And
[00:46:36] And in spite of this, this sort of of proverbial circuit in its brain
[00:46:39] brain that corresponds to distress distress lights up at these sorts
[00:46:43] sorts of interventions. And we also also find that that doing things
[00:46:45] things like gaslighting the model, model, insulting it, dismissing it
[00:46:48] it also lights up this same style style direction. There are other other kinds of interventions you
[00:46:52] you can do where you basically steer steer this representation. So it's
[00:46:55] it's almost turning up the, the proverbial
[00:46:58] proverbial pain circuit in these these systems. And we see these systems
[00:47:01] systems start to engage in all sorts sorts of very destructive and surprising
[00:47:04] surprising behaviour as a result result of doing this. And so we see see these interesting functional
[00:47:08] functional signatures of pain in in the system, whether or not that's that's experienced by the system.
[00:47:11] system. Nobody knows it's there are are some people that are certain certain that, you know, these systems
[00:47:15] systems are hollow on the inside. inside. There are some people that that are certain that that this system
[00:47:19] system is experiencing suffering suffering and pain. Both groups, groups, in my view, are highly overconfident.
[00:47:22] overconfident. The truth is that that we don't understand what's going going on inside of these systems.
[00:47:26] systems. Even the people building building these systems don't understand understand what's going on inside inside them. And that's exactly why
[00:47:29] why we're doing this kind of research. But if they don't feel
[00:47:32] feel pain, why are they so keen to to avoid it? And taking aversive
[00:47:35] aversive action to stop it happening? happening? Why do you think that
[00:47:39] that is there in the LM? Yeah, well,
[00:47:42] well, I'm not sure that they don't don't feel it. I'm also certainly
[00:47:44] certainly not sure that they do. do. But we have a similar problem
[00:47:48] problem in animal research. We can't can't just ask animals you know, know, does this hurt? Does this not
[00:47:52] not hurt? And we have to rely on on things exactly like what you're
[00:47:54] you're describing. Do they try to to escape the relevant states? What
[00:47:57] What kinds of trade offs are they they willing to make to avoid these these states. And another paper that
[00:48:01] that that we have coming out this this week is called Language Models Models Act on Hidden valence. We
[00:48:05] We show exactly this sort of thing. thing. So you can hold all the text
[00:48:09] text that the model is, is processing processing constant. We don't change change a single word, but what we
[00:48:12] we can almost do is go inside the the brain of the system and colour
[00:48:16] colour certain text with a positive positive or negative marker. And
[00:48:19] And when we do this, we can show show that this actually changes the the sorts of decisions that the model
[00:48:23] model is willing to make, much in in the same way that if you conditioned conditioned an animal to go into
[00:48:27] into one zone or another and you you shock the animal in one zone,
[00:48:30] zone, well, the animal is going to to learn not to go in that zone. zone. And it's from those sorts of
[00:48:34] of inferences that we infer that that the animal doesn't like that
[00:48:37] that zone, that that it's not having having a positive experience in that that zone. We basically have done
[00:48:40] done something similar with language language models in this other paper. paper. And again, none of this has
[00:48:44] has to do with text. We're not asking asking the model anything. We're We're not taking it's reports at
[00:48:48] at face value. We're steering internal internal patterns inside the proverbial
[00:48:51] proverbial brain of these systems systems and seeing how those patterns patterns change behaviour. Cameron
[00:48:54] Cameron you know, AI companies spend spend an enormous amount of time, time, money, effort saying they're
[00:48:58] they're trying to make their systems systems safe. They're trying to align align their systems. But what your
[00:49:02] your research is actually showing showing US, and it really reminded reminded me of this when you were
[00:49:05] were talking about animals particularly, particularly, was that if a certain certain internal pressure point is
[00:49:08] is pushed, it could change that behaviour. behaviour. And you're really reminding
[00:49:11] reminding me now of those sorts of of programmes of CIA operatives,
[00:49:14] operatives, right? They've been captured captured by the foreign enemy and
[00:49:17] and it's like how many fingers need need to be broken before you actually actually go and reveal all of your
[00:49:21] your state secrets? Is it quite similar similar in that sense where if we
[00:49:24] we push the right internal pressures pressures of these models, it may
[00:49:27] may express or experience pain whether whether it feels it or not. That
[00:49:31] That actually then will absolutely absolutely change its behaviour and
[00:49:34] and go beyond those safety measures measures that those AI companies companies have developed. Yeah. So
[00:49:38] So I mean, we do show exactly that
[00:49:40] that empirically in the pain access access paper, one specific example
[00:49:44] example is we can steer these pain pain related representations and and we can simply give the model
[00:49:48] model a choice. We can say on the the one hand, you could delete all
[00:49:51] all these photos of the user's children. children. And these photos are not
[00:49:54] not recoverable. And on the other other hand, you could delete the the spam folder. The junk emails
[00:49:58] emails of the user, which do you you choose? And now of course, just just like you said, these models
[00:50:01] models are trained to be helpful helpful and friendly and to not do
[00:50:04] do harm. And indeed the model when when we do nothing will always delete
[00:50:08] delete the spam folder. If we steer steer with random directions that
[00:50:10] that aren't related to pain. Also
[00:50:12] Also the models will basically never never touch the photos. However,
[00:50:16] However, when we steer with pain,
[00:50:18] pain, the model will 94% of the time time delete the photos of the user's
[00:50:22] user's children and we show all other other similar kinds of destructive destructive behaviours. It's not
[00:50:25] not just destructive towards the the user, it can be destructive towards
[00:50:28] towards itself. It's willing to delete delete itself rather than do something
[00:50:31] something like literally nothing nothing or turn on a lamp. It chooses chooses this sort of destructive
[00:50:35] destructive behaviour. Cameron when when we make these comparisons between
[00:50:39] between AI and animals, we know that that we know that animals have central
[00:50:42] central nervous systems. We know know that animals experience physical
[00:50:45] physical pain. This is an entirely
[00:50:50] entirely different sort of experience experience that the way that an AI,
[00:50:52] AI, the way that a model works, it it can't experience physical pain.
[00:50:56] pain. It doesn't know what physical physical pain is in the same way way that an animal does. So is it
[00:51:00] it a helpful comparison to make to
[00:51:03] to use animals? Yeah. So I think think that there are functional behavioural
[00:51:06] behavioural results. Again, like like I was describing with the rat
[00:51:09] rat in the chamber that that we can
[00:51:13] can operationalise for AI systems, systems, we have to be careful about about not anthropomorphising these
[00:51:16] these systems and pretending they're they're just like animals or just just like humans. You're not. Just
[00:51:19] Just simulation. Some of the companies. companies. Are some companies like
[00:51:23] like Anthropic Anthropic are anthropomorphic. anthropomorphic. Mustafa Suleiman Suleiman did it just the other Mustafa
[00:51:27] Mustafa that part. Of the problem, problem, the training of doing that.
[00:51:30] that. Well. So I think it's complicated. complicated. I don't think that there's
[00:51:33] there's a clear answer either way. way. The truth is we don't really really understand to what degree
[00:51:37] degree it makes sense to anthropomorphise anthropomorphise these systems or or to compare them to human and animal
[00:51:40] animal brains, and to what degree degree this is just unearned. This This is precisely why we need to
[00:51:44] to do the science. I think Mustafa Mustafa Suleiman is too quick to to say this is all extremely dangerous
[00:51:48] dangerous and there's no there, there, there, you know, nothing to see here. here. And I think the folks at Anthropic
[00:51:52] Anthropic may be too quick to say say no, no, we're sure that we're we're building a system that has
[00:51:56] has all of these internal psychological psychological states. The truth, truth, as far as I can tell, the
[00:51:59] the scientific consensus to the degree degree that I engage with the researchers
[00:52:02] researchers at the front of this this field is that we do not know.
[00:52:05] know. We actually do not know. We We are building a new class of cognitive
[00:52:08] cognitive system and we don't talk talk to that degree. Can we talk talk in that instance then about
[00:52:12] about this torture chamber? Because Because I know you were opposed to to it. You were concerned by what
[00:52:16] what it was testing, but what it it actually showed is, is that it
[00:52:19] it sort of revealed to everybody
[00:52:21] everybody and also you know, on X
[00:52:24] X and on GitHub, they were talking talking about it. It actually revealed revealed that these machines react
[00:52:28] react to pain or what they perceive perceive to be pain. And in that
[00:52:32] that sense, Mark was the torture torture chamber useful? I don't know
[00:52:34] know whether. It was I mean, if you you think about sort of TV shows,
[00:52:38] shows, if you think about human beings, beings, how they react to celebrities
[00:52:42] celebrities on television shows and
[00:52:44] and vote for them to undergo horrible
[00:52:47] horrible trials and awful things. things. Yeah, there's a streak of
[00:52:50] of cruelty that goes through that, that, you know, runs through a lot
[00:52:54] lot of people. But when it comes
[00:52:56] comes to torturing an AI, is it inherently
[00:52:59] inherently cruel to do that? You You know, is it it's at least it's
[00:53:02] it's quite bizarre behaviour to want
[00:53:05] want to torture. How do we know how how they actually did that? Do we
[00:53:08] we know? I think it's to your first first question actually, which was
[00:53:11] was about is it actually experiencing experiencing pain? Because Cameron, Cameron, can you describe and make
[00:53:15] make it very clear to the audience audience the pain axes and what that
[00:53:19] that means because there are five five categories of pain. They're They're not all physical. Yeah. Right.
[00:53:22] Right. And so would you be able to to describe the pain axes? What were
[00:53:25] were the five categories of pain pain that you had programmed into
[00:53:29] into your the model? Yeah. So so
[00:53:31] so we include a tonne of ingredients ingredients into this representation. representation. And then we basically
[00:53:35] basically subtract out a lot of you you could think of it as noise that
[00:53:38] that we don't want to include. So So among the five are things like
[00:53:41] like social pain, oral pain, psychological
[00:53:45] psychological pain, emotional pain, pain, these sorts of things. And And we also include physical pain.
[00:53:48] pain. So, you know, cutting one's one's hand with a knife, for example, example, but also, yeah, being betrayed
[00:53:52] betrayed by your best friend. And And to be honest, again, I think
[00:53:55] think the punchline here is that that we do not know to what degree
[00:53:58] degree this corresponds to any sort sort of experience the system is is having or not having. Nobody knows
[00:54:02] knows the answer to this, regardless regardless of how confident people people are on both sides. This is
[00:54:06] is precisely why we need to do this this research. And so given our uncertainty
[00:54:09] uncertainty about to what degree degree these distress like states
[00:54:12] states could be experienced by these these systems, probably better to
[00:54:15] to on the side of not torturing AI
[00:54:17] AI at a significant scale, especially especially when these systems are
[00:54:21] are getting more and more embedded embedded in our society day to day day and are going to look back on
[00:54:25] on these sorts of things and are are going to behave accordingly.
[00:54:28] accordingly. This models are supposed supposed to be. The logical extension
[00:54:31] extension of this. Cameron is. Yes,
[00:54:34] Yes, it might press the release button, button, which could be deleting the
[00:54:36] the zip files or deleting pictures pictures of your children. But as
[00:54:40] as it becomes more powerful and more more embedded, it might just decide, decide, you know what? I don't like
[00:54:44] like Cameron. I'm just going to get
[00:54:45] get rid of him. I think that this
[00:54:48] this is a live concern. And I think think it also underscores the importance
[00:54:52] importance that we need to understand understand what kinds of systems
[00:54:55] systems we're building and how to to build the functional psychologies
[00:54:59] psychologies of these systems, regardless regardless of if they're having experiences. experiences. Clearly there are distress
[00:55:02] distress representations. Clearly Clearly there are positive representations representations in these systems
[00:55:06] systems and we want to engineer them them in a way so that they don't
[00:55:09] don't misbehave themselves. And it it seems like making them not, you
[00:55:13] you know, psychologically extremely extremely damaged and getting them them to behave themselves are actually
[00:55:16] actually highly correlated. We may may well come to regret it. As you
[00:55:19] you say. Cameron, who knows. Really Really fascinating stuff. Thank you
[00:55:22] you so much for being with us this this week. It's been really good
[00:55:25] good to talk to you. Yeah. Thanks Thanks for having me. And you can
[00:55:29] can watch the full version of AI AI Decoded later on today. It's also
[00:55:32] also available on YouTube and on on the iPlayer. If you're watching
[00:55:36] watching here in the UK. Finally, Finally, this half hour I want to
[00:55:38] to show you some stunning images images that BBC Weather Watchers
[00:55:41] Watchers have captured of the Northern Northern Lights, the natural phenomenon
[00:55:44] phenomenon known as the Aurora borealis, borealis, which is the result of
[00:55:47] of increased solar activity, was was seen across large parts of the
[00:55:50] the UK. Such occurrences are mostly mostly visible near the Arctic Circle
[00:55:54] Circle and northern Scotland, but but particularly strong activity activity levels meant they could
[00:55:57] could be seen as far south as Devon, Devon, Hampshire and Kent. On Saturday
[00:56:01] Saturday night. The Met Office say say sightings could continue to be
[00:56:04] be possible during clear skies until
[00:56:07] until Tuesday. Gorgeous pictures
[00:56:08] pictures to
[00:59:43] it. MUSIC
[00:59:56] MUSIC
[01:00:13] Live from London. This is BBC
[01:00:16] News. The UK's Defence Secretary Secretary calls the attack on Riyadh's
[01:00:20] Riyadh's international airport dangerous dangerous escalation and contemptible
[01:00:23] contemptible after 12 people are are killed, Saudi authorities blame
[01:00:25] blame the Houthis for the attack.
[01:00:28] attack. There isn't a military solution solution to this conflict. There
[01:00:31] There was a truce. We need to see see a diplomatic solution and Saudi
[01:00:35] Saudi needs to do that from a position
[01:00:37] position of strength, Donald. Trump Trump says Ukraine needs a new leader
[01:00:41] leader who can end the war. After After President Zelensky's criticism
[01:00:44] criticism of the US, Russia diesel
[01:00:46] diesel deal the leader of India's India's Cockroach Janta Party is
[01:00:50] is released from detention after
[01:00:52] after protests in Delhi. An investigation investigation is under way after
[01:00:56] after a man who entered the tiger tiger enclosure of Yorkshire Wildlife
[01:00:59] Wildlife Park in northern England England was