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[00:00:00] and wasn't working. That was really really influential to how I approached approached my journalism. Building
[00:00:04] Building trust by taking the time time to understand a situation clearly
[00:00:07] clearly before reporting a story
[00:00:10] story in a 24 hour news cycle. Patience
[00:00:13] Patience can be so frustrating, but but it's a crucial tool. I'm Lucy
[00:00:17] Lucy Hockings on BBC News Now. Now
[00:00:23] Now on. BBC News. Comprehensive coverage
[00:00:27] coverage of the day's important national
[00:00:29] national and international news stories.
[00:00:33] stories. Newsnight. A conversation
[00:00:41] conversation we must have. Andy Burnham Burnham says it will be a dereliction
[00:00:44] dereliction of duty for the government government not to pursue closer ties
[00:00:48] ties with the EU. Should we brace brace ourselves for a rerun of those
[00:00:52] those divisive Brexit rows? And we
[00:00:54] we probe the extent of Russian interference interference in UK elections after
[00:00:57] after Andy Burnham says it's inconceivable inconceivable to think Russia didn't
[00:01:01] didn't try to interfere in the Brexit Brexit vote. A close ally of President
[00:01:04] President Putin tells Newsnight that's
[00:01:07] that's a crazy lie.
[00:01:27] Good evening. Welcome to Monday's Newsnight live from Broadcasting
[00:01:30] Broadcasting House with insight on on politics, media and international
[00:01:33] international news. Each weeknight.
[00:01:36] weeknight. Hello. Did Russia interfere
[00:01:39] interfere in the 2016 Brexit referendum? referendum? Let me introduce you
[00:01:41] you to our panel this evening. Times Times columnist Fraser Nelson and
[00:01:45] and Labour MP for Pendle and Clitheroe,
[00:01:47] Clitheroe, Jonathan Hinder, a leading
[00:01:49] leading Red wall MP, and Nick is
[00:01:52] is here to. This is what the Prime Prime Minister said. On. The Rest
[00:01:55] Rest Is Politics podcast. Last night. night. I asked a question coming
[00:01:59] coming into Downing Street. Was there
[00:02:03] there interference in the 2016 referendum referendum from Russia? And I've I've had the clear answer that yes,
[00:02:06] yes, there was. Yes. Today in the
[00:02:08] the Commons he said something different.
[00:02:11] different. It is a matter of record, record, Mr Speaker, that Russian
[00:02:14] Russian actors sought to interfere
[00:02:18] interfere in the 2029 general election
[00:02:19] election and we think it is inconceivable
[00:02:23] inconceivable that this was the first first time. Let's talk to Labour Labour MP Emily Thornberry, chair
[00:02:27] chair of the Foreign Affairs Select Select committee, about this and and the Prime Minister's comments
[00:02:30] comments that it will be a dereliction dereliction of duty for the government government not to pursue closer ties
[00:02:34] ties with the EU. Welcome to you you Dame Emily Thornberry. Why is
[00:02:37] is the Prime Minister saying two
[00:02:39] two very different things about Russian Russian interference, do you think?
[00:02:43] think? I don't know if he is. I mean,
[00:02:45] mean, I think that it's well, it's
[00:02:48] it's measurable that there was attempts attempts by Russia to interfere in
[00:02:51] in the Brexit referendum is it. Yeah, Yeah, yeah. Where's the evidence?
[00:02:55] evidence? Well, City University did
[00:02:56] did show that there were 13,500 tweets
[00:03:00] tweets that put out 65 sorry, 13,500
[00:03:04] 13,500 accounts put out 65,000 tweets
[00:03:06] tweets at the time. Very shortly shortly around the Brexit referendum.
[00:03:10] referendum. One of them was a guy
[00:03:13] guy called David Joe Brexit. And And although he claimed he came from
[00:03:16] from the Isle of Wight, he only seemed seemed to tweet during Russian working
[00:03:19] working hours. But that's not what what Andy Burnham said in the Commons Commons today, is it? He did say
[00:03:23] say something different. I'm just just saying that there is evidence evidence that there were attempts.
[00:03:27] attempts. Now the trouble is how how do you measure whether that actually
[00:03:29] actually had an effect or not, particularly particularly in the context? Actually, Actually, I'm not asking about whether
[00:03:33] whether it had an effect or not. not. I'm literally just asking why why you thought the Prime Minister
[00:03:36] Minister said two different things things and why he appeared to row
[00:03:40] row back in the Commons today. What What he said on that podcast last
[00:03:42] last night? Well, it's like, are are you interfering? You know, Russia
[00:03:46] Russia is interfering. But whether whether they interfered effectively effectively or not is something which
[00:03:49] which is difficult to, to prove one one way or the other, I suppose.
[00:03:53] suppose. I mean, ten years later later and we have to remember it's it's in the context of a huge amount
[00:03:57] amount of lies. You know, it's kind kind of rich coming from some people
[00:04:00] people saying that Andy Burnham is
[00:04:02] is lying when, you know, there were
[00:04:05] were what was it, 350 lies that were
[00:04:08] were being told, you know, on the the side of a bus, they claim they they were going to have all this
[00:04:12] this money. That was I mean, all all of this Boris Johnson saying saying that people's lives were going
[00:04:15] going to be, you know, bigger breasts breasts if we left the European Union.
[00:04:18] Union. I mean, all of this nonsense, nonsense, there was a lot of lies
[00:04:20] lies told. It's very difficult to to know on what basis people made
[00:04:24] made decisions. And it's difficult difficult to know whether the Russians
[00:04:27] Russians were making up additional additional lies or simply amplifying
[00:04:30] amplifying the lies that were already already there. One thing you think.
[00:04:33] think. It definitely happened. They They definitely did. I mean, they they definitely tried to interfere.
[00:04:37] interfere. And actually the truth truth is, is that in the last ten ten years they've got a lot better
[00:04:41] better at it. And that is the real
[00:04:44] real issue, which is how do we now
[00:04:46] now protect our democracy to make make sure that the Russians don't
[00:04:50] don't interfere in future and are are effective? OK. So that's what's
[00:04:53] what's important really. I mean, mean, like, you know, we can argue argue for as long as we like about
[00:04:57] about what happened with Brexit. Brexit. Let's not let's just say
[00:05:00] say we had a referendum and we chose chose to leave. And you know, that
[00:05:03] that was ten years ago. Now we need need to look at how do we protect
[00:05:07] protect our democracy right now.
[00:05:08] now. OK, we'll come back to further further conversation about this in
[00:05:12] in a moment. I spoke to close ally
[00:05:14] ally and former spokesperson for for President Putin, Sergei Markov.
[00:05:18] Markov. What does he say to Prime Prime Minister Burnham's claim that
[00:05:21] that Russia interfered in the 2016
[00:05:23] 2016 Brexit vote? No, it's directly
[00:05:27] directly I don't know either. It's
[00:05:29] It's Prime Minister Burnham is lying
[00:05:32] lying or intelligence service of
[00:05:34] of Great Britain who is not fully
[00:05:36] fully under the control of the industry
[00:05:41] industry changing Prime Ministers Ministers lying. We don't know. But
[00:05:43] But it's absolutely clear. Like Russia
[00:05:46] Russia are those time was discussing
[00:05:49] discussing about more independent
[00:05:50] independent of Europe from United United States of America. That's
[00:05:54] That's why Russia was interesting
[00:05:56] interesting about more strong and
[00:05:58] and more independent European Union.
[00:06:02] Union. So it's a crazy lie. Mr Burnham Burnham said that Russian actors
[00:06:06] actors sought to interfere in, in
[00:06:08] in the UK's 2019 general election,
[00:06:11] election, and he said it's inconceivable inconceivable that this was the first
[00:06:14] first time and Twitter, as it then
[00:06:16] then was told the House of Commons
[00:06:18] Commons that it had identified 49 49 accounts linked to Russia's internet
[00:06:22] internet Research Agency that posted
[00:06:25] posted 942 Brexit related tweets tweets during the referendum campaign
[00:06:28] campaign and the University of Edinburgh
[00:06:32] Edinburgh identified 419 accounts accounts operating from the Russian
[00:06:36] Russian internet Research Agency Agency attempting to influence UK
[00:06:38] UK politics. Out of 2500 accounts
[00:06:42] accounts suspended by Twitter. Peter
[00:06:46] Peter Saull Russia Russian government
[00:06:49] government has no political forces forces in Great Britain who is friendly
[00:06:52] friendly to Russia so no reason for
[00:06:55] for Russia to support anybody in
[00:06:58] in British politics. Vladimir Putin
[00:07:00] Putin many times Russia very much
[00:07:03] much respect of sovereignty of all all other countries. Well, that's
[00:07:06] that's not true. That's not true. true. Sorry. That's blatantly not
[00:07:09] not true because Russia invaded Ukraine,
[00:07:11] Ukraine, didn't respect its sovereignty.
[00:07:13] sovereignty. No, no, no, you're yeah,
[00:07:16] yeah, I am absolutely right because
[00:07:20] because Ukraine not independent Ukraine
[00:07:22] Ukraine after the coup military coup
[00:07:26] coup of 2014, independence of Ukraine
[00:07:29] Ukraine had been stolen by United
[00:07:31] United States of America, Great Britain
[00:07:33] Britain and European Union. So it's
[00:07:37] it's impossible to violate independence independence of Ukraine because independence
[00:07:40] independence of Ukraine does not
[00:07:43] not exist from 2014. OK, that's absolute
[00:07:46] absolute nonsense because Ukraine
[00:07:47] Ukraine Ukraine voted for independence
[00:07:50] independence in 1991. And as we know
[00:07:52] know in 20 well, in 2014, Russia
[00:07:55] Russia took Crimea, annexed Crimea
[00:07:57] Crimea illegally and then invaded
[00:07:59] invaded Ukraine in 2022. So so I
[00:08:02] I put to you again Russia, President
[00:08:04] President Putin does not does not
[00:08:06] not respect the sovereignty of independent
[00:08:10] independent nations. Vladimir Putin,
[00:08:12] Putin, respect the sovereignty of of all independent nations. And he
[00:08:16] he repeated this many times. It's
[00:08:20] It's strategic position of Russian
[00:08:22] Russian government. But if you are
[00:08:24] are talking about Ukraine, Ukraine
[00:08:27] Ukraine was independent from 1991
[00:08:30] 1991 until coup of 2000 and when
[00:08:34] when Ukraine was independent and
[00:08:35] and neutral country. Ukraine has
[00:08:38] has zero problem with Russia, zero
[00:08:41] zero security problems or zero economic economic growth. That's why Russia
[00:08:45] Russia support independence of Ukraine.
[00:08:48] Ukraine. Russia suggested that Ukraine
[00:08:50] Ukraine should come back to the period
[00:08:54] period between 1991 and 2014, when
[00:08:57] when Ukraine was independent, neutral
[00:08:59] neutral and democratic country, but
[00:09:01] but not as Neo colonial regime as as it now. Thank you very much, Sergei
[00:09:04] Sergei Markov. Thank you for talking
[00:09:06] talking to us. My pleasure. So what's
[00:09:11] what's so interesting about that that is when you see him being questioned,
[00:09:14] questioned, that is the voice of of Russia just directly. It is just
[00:09:17] just not believable. And that's why why they have to hide behind all
[00:09:20] all of these bots that they make. make. They pretend that there are
[00:09:24] are real people. They are not real real people. And they simply echo
[00:09:26] echo one another and they put messages messages out that way. And people
[00:09:30] people are completely fooled. But But what they should do is look at
[00:09:32] at these bots and look to see whether whether they have followers who are
[00:09:36] are like their auntie or their mum, mum, or somebody who would look like
[00:09:39] like a real friend. Not Ivan 3245
[00:09:42] 3245 you know, do they have real real faces? Do they have real profiles?
[00:09:46] profiles? Because those are the bot bot farms and many of them are based
[00:09:49] based in Russia and they are using using you know, they are trying to
[00:09:52] to divide democracies. They are trying trying to undermine us. And it is
[00:09:55] is really important that people understand
[00:09:57] understand what is going on. Nick,
[00:10:00] Nick, what have you picked up about about the differing statements, the
[00:10:03] the different statements that Andy Andy Burnham made? Well, what we
[00:10:06] we had from today, from Andy Burnham Burnham was obviously him talking talking about the deal that he hopes
[00:10:09] hopes to sign with the European Union Union on the 20th of November. And
[00:10:12] And then, as we were saying, those those differing statements on alleged
[00:10:15] alleged Russian interference. So So on the wider relationship with
[00:10:18] with the EU, you can see three factors factors explaining Andy Burnham's
[00:10:21] Burnham's thinking. Firstly, he believes
[00:10:23] believes it's in the UK's economic
[00:10:25] economic interest to improve on Boris Boris Johnson's zero tariffs. Zero
[00:10:29] Zero quota deal with the EU. Secondly, Secondly, the Prime Minister believes
[00:10:33] believes it's in the UK's broader broader political interest to widen
[00:10:36] widen that deal to cover things like
[00:10:39] like co-operation on immigration. immigration. And then thirdly, the the Prime Minister believes that
[00:10:42] that if you get a deal that should should open up a wider conversation
[00:10:46] conversation about a much closer
[00:10:47] closer future relationship with the
[00:10:50] the EU, that could include rejoin. rejoin. Now, might there just be
[00:10:52] be a little bit of a political calculation calculation there? Because if as
[00:10:56] as he's trying to win back voters voters from the Greens and the Liberal
[00:10:59] Liberal Democrats will, polling shows shows that well over 70% of Green
[00:11:03] Green and Lib Dem voters in 2024
[00:11:06] 2024 would vote for rejoin. And if
[00:11:09] if you are making a big offer to
[00:11:11] to remain voters, there are many
[00:11:14] many passionate remain voters who
[00:11:16] who feel very strongly about this this alleged Russian interference
[00:11:19] interference in the Brexit referendum. referendum. But then what that took
[00:11:22] took us today is a pattern that we've we've had since Andy Burnham became
[00:11:25] became Prime Minister. Does he occasionally occasionally use loose language?
[00:11:28] language? So in the rest of the Rest Rest is Politics podcast, he talked
[00:11:32] talked about how to he saw he was
[00:11:34] was told when he became Prime Minister
[00:11:36] Minister there was Russian interference interference in the 2016 referendum
[00:11:40] referendum appeared before MPs today today where you've got to be utterly
[00:11:44] utterly precise in your language. language. A clarification much more
[00:11:46] more cautious language. There was
[00:11:48] was Russian involvement in the 2016
[00:11:51] 2016 referendum and then his Andy Andy Burnham's judgement is that
[00:11:55] that it's inconceivable that there there wasn't involvement before that
[00:11:59] that date. OK. Could it be a political political strategy then from Andy
[00:12:03] Andy Burnham to be appealing to those
[00:12:06] those pro-EU voters who may have have drifted to the Lib Dems, to
[00:12:09] to the Greens, from Labour? I don't
[00:12:11] don't know. I think that I think
[00:12:16] think that the I think that the majority majority of people in Britain know
[00:12:19] know that that leaving the EU was
[00:12:21] was a mistake and that it shouldn't
[00:12:24] shouldn't be the end of the world world for us to discuss changing changing our relationship. I mean,
[00:12:28] mean, remember, you know, our current current relationship is one that that was a deal that was signed by
[00:12:32] by Boris Johnson on Christmas Eve.
[00:12:35] Eve. Now, by definition, frankly, frankly, one should be sceptical sceptical about whether or not that
[00:12:39] that deal was sufficient. Signed Signed by Boris Johnson Christmas Christmas Eve, it obviously had massive
[00:12:43] massive holes in it. Attempts are are being made to patch those holes
[00:12:47] holes up. They've. The negotiations negotiations have been going on for for some time, but actually the time
[00:12:51] time it's taken us to negotiate that that Europe has changed. Our relationship
[00:12:54] relationship with Europe has changed.
[00:12:55] changed. It's much more of a security
[00:12:58] security focused Europe these days.
[00:13:00] days. You know, the impact of Ukraine
[00:13:03] Ukraine has really affected our standing standing in Europe, but our relationship
[00:13:06] relationship with Europe too. So
[00:13:08] So I think having opening up a conversation, conversation, but this time doing
[00:13:11] doing it in an honest way and doing doing it in a way whereby we don't don't spend our time screaming at
[00:13:15] at each other, but we just say if if we want to grow our economy, if
[00:13:19] if we want to be able to find ourselves ourselves a place in the world where
[00:13:22] where we are safe and secure, then then maybe we should be closer to
[00:13:25] to our closest geographical neighbours. neighbours. Other countries about
[00:13:28] about the same size, other countries, countries, economies like ours and and the same sort of outlook. Let
[00:13:32] Let me push you to the next Labour Labour manifesto because my understanding
[00:13:35] understanding is that you want to to see rejoining the EU in the Labour
[00:13:38] Labour manifesto. I mean, I think think that would be quite sensible. sensible. Which means freedom of
[00:13:42] of movement, of course. Well, why why do you say well why are you saying
[00:13:45] saying it would it would mean freedom. freedom. But I don't know whether whether it. Which may not which may
[00:13:49] may not be what a majority of the the British public. I mean we need
[00:13:52] need to we need to discuss this and and we need to discuss this not just just internally but also with the
[00:13:56] the European Union. And on that point, point, does it mean that. EU not not have free movement? Well, rewrite
[00:13:59] rewrite the Treaty of Rome. No, no no no. Does it mean that we have have to sign up to Schengen? Does
[00:14:03] Does it mean that we have to the. the. Terms that we that the UK had.
[00:14:06] had. Yeah, yeah. So so. Freedom of of movement in the Treaty of Rome. Rome. Yeah. That's not. Yeah, I understand
[00:14:10] understand that but you know but but the Schengen agreement is is is something else. Do we need to
[00:14:14] to be in that and do we need to or or do we need to join the euro. You
[00:14:17] You know, there are countries in in the European Union because the the euro in the Maastricht treaty,
[00:14:21] treaty, we had an opt out as a member. member. There are countries that that have not joined the European
[00:14:24] European Union or have signed up up to join the European to join the
[00:14:27] the euro at some stage in the future. future. In 20 years on, they still
[00:14:31] still haven't got there. This. Is Is a flavour of the conversation conversation that would be opened
[00:14:34] opened up. Now you may want that that conversation to be opened up up even though you wrote during the
[00:14:38] the Brexit years about Brexit paralysis paralysis in this country, you wrote
[00:14:42] wrote about the Britain disappearing disappearing into a Brexit hole.
[00:14:45] hole. Do you want to see that again?
[00:14:48] again? I want us to be in a country country at ease with our neighbours
[00:14:51] neighbours and a country where we
[00:14:52] we can grow our economy, which will will be to our advantage. And you
[00:14:56] you know, for us to be, as I say, say, safe and in a good relationship
[00:14:59] relationship with those who are closest closest to us. And can I put this
[00:15:02] this to you finally before we before before we talk to Fraser, Nelson
[00:15:05] Nelson and Jonathan, Hinder your your colleague, what do you think
[00:15:08] think about the fact that Andy Burnham Burnham appeared to say more about
[00:15:12] about a future EU, UK relationship relationship in the Commons today,
[00:15:15] today, rather than the crisis in in Ukraine because of President Trump's
[00:15:18] Trump's diesel deal with President
[00:15:20] President Putin and the Iranian backed
[00:15:22] backed an assault on RAF Fairford?
[00:15:26] Fairford? Yeah, so I think he did did talk about the other matters.
[00:15:29] matters. But I mean, he was also also questioned largely about Brexit
[00:15:32] Brexit too. So that's how it kind
[00:15:34] kind of ended up dominating. But
[00:15:37] But clearly it is a very important important issue, which is that America
[00:15:40] America would seem under Donald Trump Trump to be increasing its dependence
[00:15:44] dependence on Russian oil and gas, gas, unlike Europe, that is weaning
[00:15:48] weaning itself off oil and gas from from Russia as we need to in order
[00:15:51] order to be able to, to take a stranglehold stranglehold on the Russian economy,
[00:15:55] economy, because that really is the the only way in which we're going
[00:15:57] going to get Putin back to the negotiating negotiating table in a sensible frame
[00:16:00] frame of mind. But there are there there are parts of Europe who are are still buying Russian energy.
[00:16:04] energy. But I think that they have have Yahya Sarea but they've cut
[00:16:07] cut it back. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And And they still I think it's now 14%
[00:16:10] 14% in relation to some countries, countries, but it has gone down from
[00:16:13] from a much higher number. And that's that's true. You can't cut it off
[00:16:17] off overnight necessarily. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you very much. Emily Emily Thornberry Dame Emily Thornberry
[00:16:20] Thornberry thank you for being with with us. So the Prime Minister says says he's going to push for new post-Brexit
[00:16:24] post-Brexit deals with the EU at at a summit next month. Areas like
[00:16:27] like youth mobility, food, energy. energy. The conservative leader,
[00:16:30] leader, Kemi Badenoch, says he's he's unpicking the deal this country
[00:16:33] country signed with the EU a decade decade after the referendum. Mr Burnham
[00:16:36] Burnham said we should be open to to a discussion about our relationship relationship with Brussels in the
[00:16:40] the longer term. Here he explains
[00:16:42] explains his reasons. If we are serious
[00:16:47] serious about promoting growth controlling
[00:16:50] controlling immigration, upholding upholding our values and security,
[00:16:54] security, it is a conversation we
[00:16:56] we must have. Sticking with the status
[00:17:00] status quo is not good enough for
[00:17:02] for Britain. Worse, it would be a
[00:17:04] a major dereliction of duty to turn turn away. We need to take a calm,
[00:17:08] calm, clear eyed, rational look at at the world as it is today to consider
[00:17:12] consider what is best for our country.
[00:17:15] country. OK, let's pick this up with with our panel then. Jonathan, do
[00:17:18] do you agree with Andy Burnham and and Emily Thornberry? Oh on what?
[00:17:22] what? Sorry. On getting closer to
[00:17:25] to the EU. Well, I think if I may
[00:17:28] may say what we just saw with you,
[00:17:31] you, Nick and Emily is what you could could well imagine the conversation
[00:17:35] conversation going into if we open open this to be a full-blown Brexit
[00:17:38] Brexit debate again. So let's take take things in turn. What we've got
[00:17:42] got is Andy Burnham continuing the the work that Keir Starmer's government
[00:17:45] government was doing on the summit. summit. So we're trying to get rid
[00:17:48] rid of red tape, improve things for for business farmers and so forth.
[00:17:52] forth. That's a tick for you. That's That's good. OK. Right. That's one
[00:17:55] one thing. But when we talk about
[00:17:58] about the possibility of dropping dropping those red lines, then you
[00:18:02] you get into free movement. You get get into the customs union. So not
[00:18:06] not having your own trade policy, policy, you get into tens of billions
[00:18:08] billions of pounds a year being sent
[00:18:10] sent to the EU. That's what rejoining
[00:18:13] rejoining means, not to mention the the euro and Schengen, which as you
[00:18:16] you say, we had opt outs out of because
[00:18:19] because of our special status that that we had inside the EU. So none
[00:18:23] none of that is going to happen, happen, right? None of that is going
[00:18:26] going to happen. So I think geopolitically
[00:18:30] geopolitically it makes sense for for us when we've got what's going
[00:18:33] going on in America going on to say say we want to be close to France
[00:18:37] France and Germany and our other
[00:18:39] other European allies, but the EU,
[00:18:42] EU, that's a different thing. The The institutions of the EU are a
[00:18:44] a different thing. And we played played a central role in European
[00:18:48] European geopolitics when it comes comes to Ukraine from outside the
[00:18:51] the EU. And I think that's where where we should stay. Right. Why
[00:18:54] Why do you say none of that is going going to happen? How can you be so
[00:18:58] so sure? Well, because there's no
[00:19:00] no way we can go back into the European European Union without a referendum.
[00:19:04] referendum. It wouldn't have democratic democratic legitimacy. And what we
[00:19:06] we just saw from your conversation conversation with Emily and Nick
[00:19:09] Nick was exactly how the campaign
[00:19:11] campaign would go. And honestly, honestly, I don't think it would
[00:19:15] would be close. I really don't know. know. What you mean. People would would vote again to stay out. Well,
[00:19:18] Well, that's not what the polling polling suggests. As you know. Well,
[00:19:22] Well, we saw the conversation beyond beyond the initial question there,
[00:19:25] there, didn't we? It was only 30s 30s and it was getting a bit sticky.
[00:19:28] sticky. Fraser Nelson Polling shows shows the public's attitude has shifted, shifted, in part because Brexit has
[00:19:32] has not delivered what Boris Johnson Johnson and Nigel Farage said it
[00:19:35] it would, which was growth, decent
[00:19:37] decent growth, good growth and reduced
[00:19:41] reduced immigration this summer. summer. YouGov YouGov poll suggested suggested that 57% of Brits said
[00:19:45] said they thought it was wrong to
[00:19:47] to have left the EU, and 55% say
[00:19:51] say they supported the UK rejoining.
[00:19:53] rejoining. Well, as we saw in the the Brexit campaign, these percentages
[00:19:57] percentages shift over the course course of a campaign but this reminds
[00:19:59] reminds me a lot of the Scottish Scottish referendum. I mean the result result in Scotland. If you knew that
[00:20:03] that opinion poll, would Scotland Scotland become independent? A good good number of people would say yes.
[00:20:06] yes. But then you say would you actually actually like the referendum now
[00:20:09] now the debate now hardly anybody anybody does is exactly the same
[00:20:12] same with Brexit. If you do run a
[00:20:14] a poll saying would you like a referendum?
[00:20:17] referendum? Like soon in the foreseeable foreseeable future, I think it's
[00:20:20] it's down to like 30% or something. something. I mean. Why is Andy Burnham
[00:20:23] Burnham doing this? Because he wants wants to rally his troops. He wants
[00:20:26] wants to try to put together the the kind of the left wing coalition
[00:20:29] coalition he wants to get Lib Dem Dem voters back to Labour. He wants
[00:20:32] wants to get some of the green voters voters back and he's thinking, OK,
[00:20:36] OK, maybe it's time now to use remain remain to try to rally that flag.
[00:20:39] flag. There's no doubt about it. it. There is a huge number of Brits
[00:20:42] Brits who want back in the EU now. now. Previously Labour has not dared
[00:20:45] dared do this because like Jonathan Jonathan here represents quite Brexit
[00:20:48] Brexit deceit. They know that if if they do that's going to be a lot
[00:20:52] lot of seats just gone to Labour
[00:20:54] Labour Party. And so the position position was that, as Jonathan was
[00:20:57] was saying, just let sleeping dogs dogs lie. Let's move on. But to actually
[00:21:00] actually reopen it for the Prime Prime Minister to say he wants to
[00:21:03] to rejoin the EU, to even entertain
[00:21:05] entertain the prospect of free movement, movement, as we heard just a few
[00:21:09] few moments ago, that is the problem. problem. On one level you'll get
[00:21:12] get a lot of green voters and Lib Lib Dem voters watching this thinking
[00:21:16] thinking maybe Andy Burnham's got got the gumption I need to vote Labour
[00:21:19] Labour again. But you'll also get get a big reaction that the Tories Tories are absolutely looking their
[00:21:23] their lips for. That's why Kemi Badenoch Badenoch is going so strong, because
[00:21:26] because rerunning that referendum referendum would suit the Conservatives Conservatives down to the ground.
[00:21:29] ground. What do you think of it then, then, as a political strategy from
[00:21:32] from your new Prime Minister? Well, Well, I think we want to build a
[00:21:35] a broad based coalition across the the whole country, working class.
[00:21:38] class. Is this the way middle class
[00:21:39] class voters? And I think most people
[00:21:42] people would say relaunching ourselves ourselves into that national trauma
[00:21:45] trauma again should not be a priority. priority. So not not a good political.
[00:21:49] political. Relationship with the the EU, good for business and so
[00:21:51] so forth. And I have businesses in in my constituency that say, yeah, yeah, there have been some issues
[00:21:55] issues with that red tape and so so forth, but not relaunching the
[00:21:58] the whole thing. I mean, if it were were to happen, if we were to move
[00:22:01] move in the direction of rejoin, rejoin, it would be a huge journey. journey. I mean, it was interesting.
[00:22:04] interesting. I picked up on Emily Emily suggesting that maybe you could could join the European Union, not
[00:22:08] not have free movement. I mean, I I cannot see that happening because because as I said, it's in the Treaty
[00:22:12] Treaty of Rome. The Four freedoms, freedoms, freedom, freedom of movement,
[00:22:14] movement, people, capital and services. services. That's absolutely non-negotiable.
[00:22:18] non-negotiable. So we have been on on a journey which is taking us more more in the direction of thinking
[00:22:22] thinking the EU is a good thing. thing. But for us to rejoin the European
[00:22:25] European Union would have to go on on a journey that it hasn't gone gone on, which would probably have
[00:22:29] have to take us back to something something like our membership terms,
[00:22:32] terms, which is not in Schengen, Schengen, not in the euro. That would
[00:22:35] would be a hard negotiation because
[00:22:38] because we would be obliged. Joining Joining after the signing of the the Maastricht treaty, after the
[00:22:42] the signing of Schengen to do that. that. But the EU would have to go
[00:22:45] go on a journey and think that they they want us so much that that would
[00:22:48] would be acceptable. That journey journey has barely started on the
[00:22:51] the EU side, so it's a long way to to go. Imagine that journey after
[00:22:55] after you've got Marine Le Pen in in the Lyse and AfD perhaps and knocking
[00:22:58] knocking in Berlin. You know, it it might be a very different Europe. Europe. By the way, would that be
[00:23:02] be one that the current Remainers Remainers would like to join? I'm
[00:23:04] I'm not sure. But, you know, it's it's conceivable that the populists
[00:23:08] populists really come to the fore fore in the EU and think, OK, let's let's have country club membership.
[00:23:12] membership. Let's be less oppressive oppressive like this. Look, the polls, polls, they always complaining about
[00:23:15] about this so you can see that happening. happening. But you can also see a
[00:23:19] a club that I don't think the centre centre left would be very keen on
[00:23:22] on joining one a little bit. I think think I was just gonna say I think
[00:23:25] think that's a really important point point is the EU has changed. Europe Europe has changed so much since
[00:23:29] since then. It's not the Europe of
[00:23:31] of Merkel, Renzi and Hollande. It's
[00:23:35] It's the Europe of Le Pen potentially potentially going to be the President President hot favourite to be president,
[00:23:38] president, the AfD in Germany, Meloni Meloni in Italy. You know this is
[00:23:43] is a completely different European European Union. And I think we need need ensure that when we're talking
[00:23:46] talking about this, you talk about about the polling about Brexit and
[00:23:50] and how it's gone. Actually, we're we're in a new moment and we need
[00:23:53] need to consider what's best for for now. Whatever people think of
[00:23:56] of what happened in 2016 and beyond. beyond. You asked the Prime Minister
[00:24:00] Minister for some reassurances today. today. Just briefly remind our audience
[00:24:02] audience what you wanted to know. know. And were you reassured? Well,
[00:24:06] Well, I wanted that confirmation confirmation on freedom of movement, movement, and I hope that we'll get
[00:24:10] get that in due course and that we we won't be returning to free movement.
[00:24:13] movement. I mean, as we again go
[00:24:16] go back to that conversation. So So it's not popular. So I don't think
[00:24:19] think it's going to happen, but I I think it would be helpful if we
[00:24:22] we did rule it out. I mean, Andy Andy Burnham's position because you you asked me about the red lines,
[00:24:25] lines, which are in the manifesto, manifesto, which is no free movement,
[00:24:27] movement, no customs union. And he
[00:24:30] he said basically that stands for for this Parliament manifesto stands
[00:24:33] stands for this Parliament. But what what he's talking. About the short-term.
[00:24:36] short-term. For the future relationship relationship is after the general
[00:24:39] general election. Yeah. So you if
[00:24:42] if you don't want it to be in your your manifesto, you need to be talking talking to him. Well, you can see
[00:24:46] see there's a diversity of views views in the parliamentary Labour Labour Party. And you know, the debates
[00:24:49] debates on. And the lid, by the way, way, is off. And we if anyone wants
[00:24:53] wants to keep going down this road, road, then he can expect lots of
[00:24:56] of pushback. I mean, Jonathan is is not the only Labour MP representing
[00:25:00] representing Brexit leaning voters. voters. I mean. But he might welcome
[00:25:03] welcome that. I mean, Andy Burnham Burnham might welcome that. He seems
[00:25:07] seems to want to have these arguments. arguments. Look he may want to kiss
[00:25:10] kiss goodbye to the red wall. I'd I'd be surprised if he did. But previously
[00:25:14] previously the kind of the idea of of let's move on from this seem to
[00:25:17] to be look at his what I call his his make her feel pledge when he
[00:25:19] he was standing to be an MP again. again. He was saying it'd be crazy crazy to reopen this debate. He said
[00:25:23] said that in order to win Makerfield, Makerfield, as soon as he's down down here in Westminster, he now
[00:25:27] now starts to say something different. different. That's not a good look.
[00:25:30] look. And look, my own gut feeling feeling is that in the next few weeks
[00:25:33] weeks and months, the more he tries tries this, the more he'll see. There
[00:25:35] There is nothing but pain for his his party in opening this box. What
[00:25:39] What if it does lead to what if it
[00:25:41] it does boost growth? The elusive elusive growth, the good decent growth
[00:25:45] growth of maybe 2.5%. I know you're you're going to tell me. We'll look
[00:25:48] look at the eurozone. They're not not growing very much. What if it
[00:25:51] it boosted it here. Well what you've
[00:25:54] you've answered your own question question but let me quote let me me quote House of the European Union.
[00:25:58] Union. He said it could add ten. ten. Has been growing a lot slower
[00:26:00] slower than us. If GDP is the metric metric that we all focus on, and
[00:26:03] and I think we sometimes focus on on it too much, but given that's
[00:26:06] that's the one we focus on, Germany Germany has been way behind in terms
[00:26:09] terms of growth and France about about the same as us. So in terms
[00:26:12] terms of our comparable neighbours, neighbours, it's hard to think that that it's going to be this panacea
[00:26:16] panacea for all our country's ills. ills. It's a distraction. And it's it's interesting. I remember talking
[00:26:20] talking to Andy Burnham two weeks weeks before the referendum ten years years ago, and he was pretty clear
[00:26:23] clear that he thought there was a a real chance that there would be be a leave vote. And he thought that
[00:26:27] that was wrong. But he was very respectful respectful of the leave voters because
[00:26:30] because his then constituency leave leave voted for leave. He was very
[00:26:34] very respectful of them and thought thought that sort of Westminster Westminster was out of touch with
[00:26:37] with them in that rest of politics politics interview, he talked about
[00:26:40] about how now, how Westminster opinion opinion is behind public opinion
[00:26:43] opinion on Brexit and he thinks public public opinion has once again gone
[00:26:46] gone in a different direction, more more favourable to membership than
[00:26:50] than the elite is what he's saying.
[00:26:52] saying. And on that point, you know,
[00:26:55] know, a lot of my constituents and and constituents of many other MPs
[00:26:58] MPs in areas of the country like like mine think that Westminster
[00:27:01] Westminster treat them with contempt.
[00:27:05] contempt. And if Westminster went went back and said, you know what,
[00:27:09] what, we're going to relaunch that
[00:27:12] that because you're wrong. It would would not be good for our politics.
[00:27:15] politics. It would not be good people. people. Not allowed to change their
[00:27:18] their mind then. Well. I think we
[00:27:22] we know that most of Westminster
[00:27:24] Westminster didn't want this to happen. happen. And they were very surprised
[00:27:28] surprised when this wake-up call
[00:27:31] call came from the population. And
[00:27:33] And the reality is I don't feel like
[00:27:35] like we've heeded that call. Still Still now we're ten years on and
[00:27:39] and do you think Brexit has. Been
[00:27:40] Been a skill. Pulling the lever that
[00:27:43] that marks listen to us, listen to
[00:27:45] to us out in the country. So there's there's no way this would be good
[00:27:49] good for our politics if we reopened reopened it. Do you think Brexit
[00:27:51] Brexit has been a success? Well, Well, that's a different question, question, isn't it? That's a very
[00:27:55] very different question. Your answer answer to where we are now. But if
[00:27:57] if we think about immigration, for
[00:28:00] for instance, which is what this this was about, there's two different
[00:28:04] different sides to it, aren't there? there? EU migration fell off a cliff
[00:28:07] cliff and that was what was driving
[00:28:09] driving huge levels of net migration migration 300,000 a year. We thought
[00:28:12] thought that was high in those days days and it fell off a cliff. It's
[00:28:15] It's net negative now, right? So
[00:28:19] So on that score, well people got got what they voted for. What we
[00:28:23] we didn't counter was the Boris wave, wave, the Tories flinging open the
[00:28:27] the doors nearly 1,000,000 in 1 year year and similar for other years
[00:28:30] years as well from outside the EU. EU. No one was thinking that was was going to happen. OK, right quick
[00:28:34] quick look at some of the stories stories on tomorrow's papers the the Guardian PM. Britain's relationship
[00:28:38] relationship with the EU is not good good enough. The Independent Burnham
[00:28:42] Burnham I'll let voters decide to
[00:28:44] to rejoin Europe. Mail Burnham in
[00:28:46] in retreat over Russia. Brexit lies
[00:28:48] lies and the times. Disability benefits
[00:28:52] benefits for 120,000 teenagers cost cost the taxpayer 1 billion a year.
[00:28:55] year. This is a huge push by The The times to have a look at welfare.
[00:28:58] welfare. Fraser Nelson I haven't haven't left you very much time to
[00:29:01] to talk about it, but go ahead. This This teenagers angle. Well this is
[00:29:04] is the times as well for an inquiry inquiry is looking at all aspects aspects of the welfare state. Now
[00:29:08] Now this is particularly shocking shocking because we're finding £1 £1 billion is being given in cash
[00:29:11] cash to teenagers for conditions
[00:29:14] conditions like ADHD and other anxiety anxiety depression. And why is that
[00:29:18] that shocking? Well, it's shocking shocking because the kids who actually actually want help and go to the
[00:29:22] the NHS, they are put in a massive massive waiting list. We also reveal
[00:29:25] reveal almost 500,000 children have have been waiting ten months for
[00:29:29] for the first therapy appointment. appointment. Now that money can be be used to give the kids what they
[00:29:33] they want children they want help. help. They're not asking for cash. cash. Our system is geared to giving
[00:29:37] giving them cash in lieu of care. care. It's one of many ways that
[00:29:40] that the welfare state is failing failing in its duty to look after
[00:29:43] after people and dispensing cash cash is a very poor substitute to to doing what the government should
[00:29:47] should do, which is give therapy therapy to children who are asking asking for it. Is it your view that
[00:29:51] that Andy Burnham, when he gets the the Alan Milburn review, will grip
[00:29:55] grip this? Well, a lot of people people are hoping that Andy Burnham
[00:29:58] Burnham will do. I mean, we've had
[00:30:00] had the Milburn review and the Mayfield Mayfield review into the workplace
[00:30:03] workplace and sickness. We've had had the times review stepping stones
[00:30:06] stones to an obvious segue of welfare welfare reform. I think there's a
[00:30:09] a great chance for cross-party consensus consensus on this. And if Labour
[00:30:13] Labour the Labour Party can't do do it, the clues in the name, then then what is the Labour Party for?
[00:30:16] for? Thank you both very much this this evening. Thank you. That is
[00:30:20] is it from us. We're back tomorrow.
[00:30:24] tomorrow. Good night.
[00:30:43] MUSIC
[00:30:48] Hello. I'm Amanda Walker in
[00:30:50] Washington and this is BBC World
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