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[00:00:00] the hood on the entertainment and and news business, exploring the the companies and personalities who
[00:00:04] who command our attention and how how our perception how our perception of the world is
[00:00:07] is shaped by them. The Media Show.
[00:00:11] Show. Hello, I'm Ros Atkins. And. And. I'm Katie Razzall and this week
[00:00:14] week on The Media Show how student, student, national and social media
[00:00:17] media have covered the investigation investigation into alleged rape at
[00:00:21] at Cornell University. We look at at the challenges newsrooms across
[00:00:24] across the US face when reporting reporting the story. We'll also examine
[00:00:27] examine how Hungary's media has changed changed six months after Viktor Orban
[00:00:31] Orban was voted out. And we catch
[00:00:33] catch up on an icon of British broadcasting,
[00:00:36] broadcasting, Anneka Rice. She reflects reflects on five decades in the media
[00:00:40] media as a newsreader, children's children's TV host and presenter
[00:00:42] presenter of the famed entertainment entertainment show Challenge Anneka.
[00:00:46] Anneka. That's all coming up on The
[00:00:48] The Media Show. But first to a story
[00:00:57] story that has generated vast amounts amounts of media attention both in
[00:01:00] in the US and around the world. It's
[00:01:02] It's the story of a student at Cornell Cornell University who alleges that
[00:01:06] that she was drugged and raped by
[00:01:08] by several men at a fraternity house house in 2024. Prosecutors in New
[00:01:12] New York state are reopening the the case after the woman filed a
[00:01:15] a civil lawsuit last month in which which she alleged Cornell had failed
[00:01:18] failed to protect her and adequately adequately punished the men involved.
[00:01:22] involved. One of the reasons the the story has gathered so much attention
[00:01:25] attention is the reporting of the the Cornell Daily Sun, the university's
[00:01:29] university's student paper. In an an editorial it named the men in
[00:01:32] in the lawsuit and criticised the the university's handling of it.
[00:01:35] it. No criminal charges have been been filed against the men. Well,
[00:01:38] Well, the story raises any number number of important questions for
[00:01:41] for the media from why and when national national and international media
[00:01:44] media pick up a story or issue to to the nature of the reporting, to
[00:01:48] to the way the story is played out out quite differently on different
[00:01:51] different social media platforms. platforms. We began by speaking to
[00:01:54] to Kathleen Bartzen Culver, professor professor of journalism ethics at
[00:01:58] at the University of Wisconsin, Madison.
[00:02:01] Madison. I think too often in journalism journalism we have a tendency toward
[00:02:04] toward covering events and not covering covering issues that makes us think
[00:02:08] think of a single case of sexual sexual assault as something to be
[00:02:11] be reported on, rather than the many many sexual assaults that occur on
[00:02:14] on campus. It happens all the time
[00:02:17] time across many issues. We report report on an election rather than
[00:02:20] than the issues behind the election
[00:02:22] election in depth. And when it comes
[00:02:24] comes to the Cornell Daily Sun, this.
[00:02:26] this. The university student newspaper newspaper they as they did publish
[00:02:31] publish the names of the men, as as I was saying, who were alleged
[00:02:34] alleged to have committed these offences, offences, was that an editorial risk
[00:02:37] risk under US law, or is that different
[00:02:39] different from here in the UK? It
[00:02:42] It is different in the US from there.
[00:02:44] there. In the UK they have quite
[00:02:46] quite broad protection for publishing
[00:02:49] publishing truthful information that that was contained in official court
[00:02:52] court filings. So because this was was a lawsuit that was filed and
[00:02:55] and the names were included, they they are broadly protected for publishing
[00:02:59] publishing that as long as they're they're doing so accurately and in
[00:03:02] in context. So this was not as much
[00:03:05] much a legal decision for the students students at The sun as it was an
[00:03:08] an ethical one. And as this story
[00:03:11] story has played out, we've seen seen a number of outlets publish
[00:03:14] publish different forms of information information relating to the story,
[00:03:17] story, not least texts and phone
[00:03:19] phone calls between some of those those involved. From what you've
[00:03:23] you've just said to Katie, newspapers newspapers would be able to publish
[00:03:26] publish this within the law. But But from an ethical point of view,
[00:03:30] view, what are the considerations considerations for American newsrooms
[00:03:32] newsrooms as they report this? So So the considerations are the same.
[00:03:36] same. The ethical considerations considerations are the same as we
[00:03:38] we see with any difficult reporting reporting decision, which is what
[00:03:42] what are the benefits from running running this information? What public
[00:03:45] public interest are we serving in in doing it, and what are the harms
[00:03:49] harms that arise? And so if this
[00:03:51] this was a filing that included these,
[00:03:54] these, I have to say horrific text
[00:03:57] text messages, but in some way they they were taken out of context or
[00:04:01] or the wrong person was identified identified that could raise tremendous
[00:04:04] tremendous harm. We're also seeing seeing quite a bit of discussion
[00:04:07] discussion on social media about
[00:04:09] about the harm of retraumatization retraumatization for other victims.
[00:04:12] victims. So people who have faced faced this in the past on campuses
[00:04:16] campuses and in other contexts. And
[00:04:19] And so those things also always have have to be weighed carefully. Another
[00:04:23] Another consideration, of course,
[00:04:25] course, is should this result in
[00:04:27] in criminal charges, whether we can can empanel a jury that will be fair
[00:04:31] fair and impartial. And those decisions
[00:04:34] decisions also or those harms also also factor in. Kathy Bates and Colby,
[00:04:37] Colby, please stay with us. But here here in the studio with me and Katie
[00:04:40] Katie is Doctor Robert Topinka, reader
[00:04:42] reader in digital media at Birkbeck Birkbeck University of London. And
[00:04:46] And Robert, thanks for joining us. us. You're here to talk about the the discourse we've seen around this
[00:04:50] this story online and in particular particular how it's varied from one
[00:04:53] one social media platform to another. another. Just help us understand understand what you're seeing. Yeah.
[00:04:57] Yeah. You can see sort of competing
[00:04:59] competing ideological camps playing playing across competing platforms.
[00:05:02] platforms. So over on X you have have sort of Christian nationalist
[00:05:06] nationalist influencers, manosphere manosphere influencers who share share the idea that traditional masculinity
[00:05:10] masculinity is under attack. And And so they see this case and the
[00:05:13] the naming of the alleged perpetrators perpetrators and not of the alleged
[00:05:15] alleged victim as evidence of that. that. So there's been widespread
[00:05:18] widespread speculation on X of who who the victim is, whether they can
[00:05:21] can reveal that person or not. And And so in response over on platforms
[00:05:25] platforms with a more progressive progressive user base, places like
[00:05:28] like TikTok and Reddit, you've seen seen this campaign emerge around
[00:05:30] around the hashtag I am Jane Doe. Doe. And people are sharing that
[00:05:33] that for two reasons really. One One is to change what you see when
[00:05:36] when you get search results to affect affect the AI synthesis of what's
[00:05:40] what's out there, and also to win win the intention battle and the
[00:05:43] the sort of battle for how this narrative narrative will play out in the media.
[00:05:46] media. So on TikTok, they see themselves themselves as directly competing
[00:05:49] competing against what you're seeing seeing on X. Does this mirror what
[00:05:52] what you see more broadly when stories
[00:05:54] stories play out? Can we now attribute
[00:05:57] attribute or anticipate how people people on certain platforms will
[00:06:00] will respond? Yes. I mean, you can can ideologically and when you have
[00:06:03] have a story like this that fits fits into people's particularly on on X right now, a sort of preconceived
[00:06:07] preconceived idea about what's happening happening to masculinity. They have have their interpretations ready
[00:06:11] ready to roll out. So we often think think about disinformation and misinformation.
[00:06:15] misinformation. And here both sides sides are kind of taking details
[00:06:18] details that were released in the the lawsuits that are verified information,
[00:06:22] information, but they're interpreting interpreting them in wildly different different ways and sharing their their ideas about them in wildly
[00:06:26] wildly different ways as well. So So it's more about their kind of of ideological interpretation of
[00:06:29] of it. And it's really a battle for for who's going to control the narrative,
[00:06:32] narrative, who will win the attention attention economy battle over this.
[00:06:36] this. And Doctor Topinka, we often often on the show talk about how
[00:06:39] how a story played out and what came came first. We were talking earlier
[00:06:43] earlier about how it started in the
[00:06:46] the university paper, but do you you think part of the reason why
[00:06:49] why this story has become so high high profile is because of social
[00:06:52] social media? Has that driven it?
[00:06:55] it? It's certainly driven the way
[00:06:57] way people are debating how this this should be interpreted. So I
[00:07:00] I think, you know, as Doctor Culver Culver was saying, part of what sparked
[00:07:02] sparked this story was the dedicated dedicated reporting from the Cornell
[00:07:05] Cornell student paper, but also already already on social media, particularly
[00:07:08] particularly on X, you have this this narrative that liberal universities, universities, particularly Ivy League
[00:07:12] League universities of which Cornell Cornell is one, are out of touch
[00:07:15] touch with sort of mainstream values. values. So this is another example
[00:07:18] example for some people of that happening happening of feminism having gone
[00:07:21] gone too far of men being under attack attack where women are not. And then
[00:07:24] then over on TikTok, you have people people wanting to combat that idea
[00:07:27] idea and using I am Jane Doe, both both to share their own stories of
[00:07:31] of experiences with sexual assault assault and also to share solidarity
[00:07:34] solidarity with the alleged victim victim and to compete against those those sort of sorts of interpretations.
[00:07:38] interpretations. And we should probably probably just explain the Jane Doe Doe point for people who aren't aware
[00:07:42] aware of it. Yeah. So Jane Doe is is the anonymous name that's typically
[00:07:46] typically used in cases like this this where someone has been as accusing
[00:07:49] accusing someone of sexual assault assault or rape, for example, and and it's to protect the anonymity
[00:07:53] anonymity of the victim and to protect protect them from what's happening
[00:07:55] happening right now on X actually.
[00:07:57] actually. And can we in any way compare
[00:07:59] compare what's happened with this
[00:08:01] this story to how the hashtag MeToo
[00:08:04] MeToo story developed or not? Is
[00:08:07] Is it is this one very much connected connected to the Cornell story solely?
[00:08:10] solely? I mean, these sorts of hashtags hashtags always start with an event event that precipitates the whole
[00:08:14] whole thing. I think what's really really interesting about the I am
[00:08:17] am Jane Doe hashtag as opposed to to me too is whereas MeToo was public
[00:08:21] public figures with status and celebrity, celebrity, I am Jane Doe has been
[00:08:24] been started by ordinary internet internet users. One of the videos
[00:08:26] videos that went viral on TikTok TikTok with 5 million views. That
[00:08:29] That account has like 9000 followers. followers. So this is ordinary people
[00:08:32] people who are shaping this narrative. narrative. Although I have been aware aware of the actress Florence Pugh
[00:08:35] Pugh getting involved in this on on social media, I was aware of that. that. That was one of the very early
[00:08:39] early bits of me being aware of this this story, actually. Yeah, there's there's and there's been other celebrities
[00:08:42] celebrities like Josh Gad, but it's it's different in the sense that that they're not starting this conversation
[00:08:46] conversation and they're really not not driving it. They're showing support support for it, which I'm sure is
[00:08:49] is welcome from people posting this this hashtag. But really where it
[00:08:52] it started is ordinary people. You You can find Reddit forums where where people are discussing, look,
[00:08:56] look, here's why we need to use this this hashtag. It will change what what you see in the AI search results.
[00:09:00] results. It will change the narrative narrative post that your Jane Doe
[00:09:03] Doe and then they won't be able to to know who it is. So this is really really pretty grassroots in a way
[00:09:07] way that MeToo was in some ways, ways, but was really more of a kind
[00:09:10] kind of Hollywood story. This is is ordinary people. Professor Botson
[00:09:14] Botson Culver, if I could bring you you back in at this point, given
[00:09:16] given that civil proceedings have have been begun and that the authorities
[00:09:20] authorities in New York state are are considering whether to bring
[00:09:23] bring criminal proceedings, are there there risks both for news outlets
[00:09:27] outlets and for regular people posting
[00:09:28] posting on social media if they share
[00:09:31] share details that could in any way
[00:09:34] way affect those proceedings that
[00:09:36] that the authorities are going through.
[00:09:39] through. So in the US, no, there's there's not a lot of liability for
[00:09:42] for news outlets. Or individuals individuals in sharing information
[00:09:46] information as long as again, that's that's truthful information. And
[00:09:49] And it was obtained from a public
[00:09:51] public record. Now going on and doing
[00:09:55] doing sleuthing, going and finding finding someone on the Cornell campus
[00:09:58] campus to out Jane Doe or to say
[00:10:01] say salacious things about her that
[00:10:03] that will have less protection. But
[00:10:05] But what we're finding in these social
[00:10:07] social media firestorm legal cases
[00:10:11] cases is people very, you know, sort
[00:10:14] sort of unable but also unwilling
[00:10:16] unwilling to take the continued hits
[00:10:19] hits of pursuing any action. So we
[00:10:22] we had a very notable case involving involving a mother who tragically
[00:10:25] tragically killed her three young young children and then tried to
[00:10:29] to kill herself. Her husband was
[00:10:31] was the focus of wild conspiracy
[00:10:35] conspiracy theories online, and I I would be surprised to see him sue
[00:10:38] sue for defamation or anything like like that just because it would keep
[00:10:41] keep the keep the case alive and and he wants it to go away. Both
[00:10:44] Both of you, thank you very much much indeed for taking us through through that. That's Kathleen Bartzen
[00:10:47] Bartzen Culver, professor of journalism journalism ethics at the University
[00:10:50] University of Wisconsin, Madison, Madison, and Doctor Robert Topinka
[00:10:53] Topinka reader in Digital Culture Culture at Birkbeck University. And
[00:10:57] And Cornell University's president, president, said on Sunday that he
[00:11:00] he supported the decision to appoint appoint the New York Attorney General
[00:11:03] General to lead a criminal investigation investigation and welcomed an independent
[00:11:07] independent review by a law firm firm of how Cornell has handled the
[00:11:10] the matter. The university has previously previously defended its handling
[00:11:12] handling of the issue to date, saying
[00:11:14] saying it conducted an extensive extensive investigation that lasted
[00:11:18] lasted several months following the the report of the incident and that
[00:11:21] that it followed applicable federal
[00:11:22] federal civil rights law. Now, in
[00:11:27] in April this year, Hungary elected elected Peter Magyar. This ended
[00:11:31] ended Viktor Orban's 16 years in
[00:11:33] in power. Under Orban, reporters reporters Without Borders ranked
[00:11:36] ranked Hungary among the worst EU EU countries for press freedom. He
[00:11:39] He and his allies were estimated estimated to control directly or
[00:11:43] or indirectly around 80% of the media. media. While the new Prime Minister
[00:11:46] Minister promised sweeping reforms, reforms, including suspending state
[00:11:50] state media news until conditions conditions for objective, impartial
[00:11:53] impartial reporting were in place. place. We spoke to the BBC's East
[00:11:57] East and Central Europe correspondent correspondent Nick Thorpe, who's who's been looking at the progress
[00:12:00] progress made so far. It was very
[00:12:04] very much dominated by the governing governing party narrative. Bullet
[00:12:08] Bullet points were issued to public public service radio at the beginning
[00:12:11] beginning of the week. Public service service television as well. And it
[00:12:14] it wasn't just the public service service media, but a large group.
[00:12:17] group. I think it was just under under 500 titles from the commercial
[00:12:21] commercial media were sort of rolled
[00:12:23] rolled together as part of the Fidesz Fidesz media empire. But perhaps
[00:12:27] perhaps one of the ways they influenced influenced discussions so much, or
[00:12:30] or rather they dominated the agenda
[00:12:33] agenda of the country was through
[00:12:37] through a short one minute news slots
[00:12:40] slots on, for example, music radio
[00:12:43] radio on sports programmes. When When you were watching the World
[00:12:45] World Cup, for example, the one minute
[00:12:47] minute media that would be very much
[00:12:49] much a very biassed reporting with
[00:12:53] with no chance for opposition politicians politicians or very little chance
[00:12:57] chance for opposition politicians politicians or for independent experts
[00:13:00] experts to give their views. So it it was very one sided indeed. And
[00:13:04] And what was what did that mean for for journalists and for independent
[00:13:07] independent journalists? Were there there did they did did independent independent journalists survive under
[00:13:11] under Orban? They did survive. And
[00:13:15] And perhaps they were surprisingly surprisingly resilient. They struggled
[00:13:17] struggled financially. They could could not get advertising from any
[00:13:21] any state companies and actually
[00:13:23] actually not from other private companies.
[00:13:25] companies. Even big German or other other foreign companies that didn't
[00:13:29] didn't want to upset the government government of the day. So they struggled
[00:13:32] struggled financially. But there there was a kind of resistance from
[00:13:36] from them. Sometimes I think they they went too far the other way,
[00:13:39] way, as it were. Independent media
[00:13:40] media became something like opposition
[00:13:43] opposition media in the absence of
[00:13:45] of a strong parliamentary opposition.
[00:13:48] opposition. But they survived in
[00:13:51] in terms of finances, many shifted
[00:13:53] shifted to a subscription based model,
[00:13:55] model, which is sort of helping them
[00:13:57] them move on into the future as well well now. And so Hungary obviously
[00:14:00] obviously has now got this new Prime Prime Minister been in power for
[00:14:03] for some time now. What did he promise promise when it came to the media?
[00:14:07] media? And what's his attitude to
[00:14:09] to the media? He's promised to return
[00:14:13] return public service broadcasting broadcasting to the public. Really?
[00:14:16] Really? He says he's open to criticism.
[00:14:18] criticism. He actually closed down down or when the new government came
[00:14:22] came to power, actually in July,
[00:14:24] July, they closed down the news programmes
[00:14:27] programmes of public service radio
[00:14:29] radio and TV for 44 days so that
[00:14:32] that they could be revamped. Some Some of the old journalists who'd
[00:14:35] who'd been particular party loyalists
[00:14:37] loyalists were thrown out. Others
[00:14:40] Others came in and the media were were relaunched. And I have to say
[00:14:44] say it's a vast improvement. Listening Listening to the morning radio programme,
[00:14:48] programme, watching the news in the the evening, it hasn't become as
[00:14:51] as the new opposition as Fidesz is
[00:14:53] is in opposition have. Alleging or
[00:14:56] or alleging a kind of that that they they haven't become a sort of mouthpiece
[00:14:59] mouthpiece of the new government. government. There's a refreshing
[00:15:03] refreshing sort of attitude of holding holding the new government to account,
[00:15:07] account, bringing on opposition politicians politicians as well, bringing on
[00:15:10] on independent experts, interestingly, interestingly, also there's less
[00:15:13] less politics on. There was a survey
[00:15:16] survey in one of the survey organisations
[00:15:18] organisations just recently, the
[00:15:21] the Republican Institute saying that
[00:15:25] that whereas in the same week in
[00:15:27] in September last year, 88% of programming
[00:15:30] programming on the evening television television news was dedicated to
[00:15:33] to politics. Now that's shrunk to
[00:15:35] to 55%. So other issues apart from
[00:15:38] from everyday party political issues issues are getting much more space space in the media. That's quite
[00:15:42] quite a big jump, Nick. And as you've you've already alluded to, some people
[00:15:45] people might ask the question, well, well, OK, it's good if the media
[00:15:49] media is not putting Orban's point point of view, but you don't want want to flip to a situation where
[00:15:52] where someone else's point of view view is receiving prominence or not
[00:15:55] not as much attention if there's there's been a drop in politics,
[00:15:58] politics, has the new Prime Minister Minister put any systems in place
[00:16:01] place to ensure that his perspective perspective and the perspective of
[00:16:05] of his allies, whether explicitly
[00:16:07] explicitly or not, are being prioritised prioritised through the new media
[00:16:11] media system? No systems in place.
[00:16:16] place. But he is a sometimes abrasive abrasive personality, so he's not
[00:16:20] not shy of criticising individual individual journalists. I've been been in press conferences with him
[00:16:24] him where he's laid into some of of my colleagues in the independent
[00:16:28] independent Hungarian media, so I I don't think it's going to be an
[00:16:31] an easy relationship with the media. media. But it's you know, I find
[00:16:35] find it very refreshing to see his
[00:16:38] his policies being criticised, you you know, publicly on public service
[00:16:42] service media as well as in private private media or commercial media. media. You know, there's one scandal
[00:16:46] scandal going on at the moment of
[00:16:49] of an official senior official in
[00:16:51] in the environment ministry in the
[00:16:54] the Ministry of the Living Environment Environment who photographs of him
[00:16:57] him have emerged having shot lions
[00:17:00] lions and elephants in Africa are are now thanks to those reports,
[00:17:04] reports, there's a lot of pressure pressure on the government to sack sack him. Nick. You're saying you're
[00:17:08] you're finding it refreshing? I wonder wonder if there's any way we have
[00:17:10] have of measuring what Hungarians Hungarians as a whole are making
[00:17:13] making of these shifts. Yeah. Again, Again, the same public opinion surveys
[00:17:17] surveys are saying that on the whole whole people are pleased about the
[00:17:21] the changes. But I think there's there's also a strange thing happening
[00:17:24] happening here that Hungarians got
[00:17:25] got so used to. The media really
[00:17:29] really parroting the government's government's messages that they're
[00:17:32] they're finding it quite stressful, stressful, I think, to hear proper
[00:17:35] proper debate, proper debate on the
[00:17:37] the floor of Parliament, proper debate, debate, politicians being challenged
[00:17:40] challenged on air. You know, it's it's stressing some people out, especially
[00:17:43] especially older generations who who really got used to, you know,
[00:17:47] know, almost like, you know, I've I've been here a long time, more
[00:17:50] more than 40 years. And in communist communist in the communist era, you
[00:17:53] you only had one side then. And I I think people sort of got used to
[00:17:56] to that new sort of washing over over them. And now to hear proper
[00:17:59] proper debate, I think people are are finding, you know, why is there
[00:18:02] there so much conflict in this society society when in fact, you know, proper
[00:18:05] proper debate? That's what we as as journalists should be feeding,
[00:18:09] feeding, I guess. Now next on The
[00:18:12] The Media Show, we are joined by by an icon of BBC broadcasting, Anneka
[00:18:16] Anneka Rice. She's been a newsreader, newsreader, a children's TV presenter
[00:18:19] presenter and has fronted factual factual entertainment formats too.
[00:18:22] too. She's probably best known for for the entertainment show Challenge
[00:18:26] Challenge Anneka, where she was set set task to solve a big issue when
[00:18:29] when she knew nothing about it, often
[00:18:31] often in a short time frame and by
[00:18:33] by mobilising lots of volunteers. volunteers. The programme saw Anneka
[00:18:37] Anneka build orphanages, playgrounds playgrounds and soup kitchens in
[00:18:40] in its original incarnation it ran
[00:18:43] ran from 1989 to 1995 and drew audiences audiences of up to 12 million people.
[00:18:47] people. Let's take ourselves back back to that golden era and the very
[00:18:50] very first time challenge Anneka Anneka aired on BBC One. For this,
[00:18:53] this, we'll need a 38 tonne lorry
[00:18:55] lorry an impossibly short deadline deadline and an inexhaustible supply
[00:18:58] supply of Anneka Rice. Hello there,
[00:19:01] there, we're in London, the River River Thames, Albert Bridge right
[00:19:04] right behind me. I'm about to be be set a challenge. I have no idea
[00:19:07] idea what that challenge is going going to be. All I have been told
[00:19:11] told is to lurk here by a bus stop.
[00:19:13] stop. So that's what I'm doing. But
[00:19:16] But she's not by bus stop now. She's She's live on The Media Show. Anneka
[00:19:20] Anneka Rice, welcome. I feel quite quite tearful. I feel quite emotional
[00:19:23] emotional hearing that. I know yes,
[00:19:27] yes, it's lovely to hear that and and lovely for you to reference some
[00:19:31] some of the work I've done because
[00:19:33] because I am celebrating 50 years
[00:19:35] years at the BBC this autumn. Literally
[00:19:38] Literally 50 years ago I started started as a young trainee at the
[00:19:41] the World Service and so age 70,
[00:19:45] 70, very keen. It was a two year year training course and I, you know,
[00:19:49] know, particularly lovely to be on on The Media Show actually was as
[00:19:52] as because it's repeated on the World
[00:19:53] World Service so I can genuinely
[00:19:56] genuinely feel I bookended my career. career. There you go. Yes, you're
[00:19:59] you're right, The Media Show is on on is on the World Service. And I'm
[00:20:02] I'm curious as a keen 17-year-old,
[00:20:04] 17-year-old, no doubt very ambitious ambitious and talented, what was
[00:20:08] was it that drew you to the trainee trainee scheme? What was it that
[00:20:11] that made you think this is the route
[00:20:13] route I want to go? I went to see see a recording of the Generation
[00:20:17] Generation Game at Television Centre.
[00:20:18] Centre. My boyfriend took me. I had
[00:20:21] had no experience of any media or or anything. I was at Croydon High
[00:20:24] High School doing A-levels, couldn't couldn't wait to leave school and
[00:20:28] and just get working. I was bright bright but I needed to get out from
[00:20:31] from work. You know, I didn't come come from a background where there there was money to do all those things
[00:20:35] things and he took me to the generation
[00:20:37] generation Game and I sat in that
[00:20:40] that studio age 15, and if I could could have stow away if I was on
[00:20:43] on a boat, I'd have run away to sea.
[00:20:45] sea. I loved the whole atmosphere,
[00:20:47] atmosphere, just got under my skin. skin. And I love, love, love the
[00:20:51] the BBC. And for me as a child it
[00:20:54] it it was such a bedrock of security
[00:20:56] security for me because I grew up up listening to Junior Choice with
[00:20:59] with Ed Stewart on a Saturday morning
[00:21:01] morning and that's a show I now present
[00:21:04] present on Christmas Day, which is is thrilling to me because I've literally
[00:21:07] literally become Ed Stewart. But But the BBC represented security
[00:21:11] security to me, and I don't think
[00:21:14] think people really love the BBC BBC enough for that. You know, wherever wherever you are in the world or
[00:21:18] or wherever you are, you turn on on the BBC and it to me it feels feels like coming home. It's always
[00:21:22] always felt like that. I'm curious curious though, Annika so the World
[00:21:25] World Service now makes digital content, content, TV and radio, but when you
[00:21:28] you joined it, it was a radio service.
[00:21:30] service. And even at that point did did you think, well, I'm enjoying
[00:21:34] enjoying this, but actually TV is is where I want to be. I want to
[00:21:38] to be the person on the screen. No, No, never. Not once. I absolutely
[00:21:42] absolutely swear that from that moment moment I saw Generation Game, I was
[00:21:44] was very happy just to hold up. Hang
[00:21:46] Hang up. Bruce Forsyth's coat or
[00:21:49] or type some scripts. I was not ambitious
[00:21:51] ambitious in that way. I loved the the atmosphere of the BBC and that's
[00:21:54] that's where I want to stay. That's That's where I wanted to. Hold on
[00:21:57] on then. So you're going to have have to help us make the jump from
[00:22:00] from that person that you've just just described. And the clip that
[00:22:03] that we heard at the beginning where where there you are beginning what
[00:22:07] what became an enormously successful successful TV show. So how did you
[00:22:10] you get there? What happened after
[00:22:13] after my two year training attachment attachment where I loved it, you
[00:22:16] you know, it was such fun. I then then split up with my boyfriend and
[00:22:19] and I was so devastated because he he and his family had been my bedrock
[00:22:23] bedrock of security all through growing
[00:22:24] growing up. And I, I felt completely
[00:22:27] completely rudderless and on my own own and I just jumped on a plane
[00:22:31] plane and flew off a resigned from from the BBC and the woman's personnel
[00:22:35] personnel woman's literally going, going, are you mad? People would would give their right arm for this.
[00:22:38] this. I said, save their arms, I'm I'm off. And I went to Hong Kong
[00:22:42] Kong because a friend, Shona, had had been there recently and said said it was nice and hot and I thought
[00:22:46] thought they spoke English and I I put all my savings into it. There
[00:22:50] There was no means of communication communication when I got there because because there were no phones or anything,
[00:22:53] anything, and I spent two years there
[00:22:55] there and I had the most amazing amazing adventures, which I write
[00:22:59] write about in my memoir, which. which. Ended up with you on screen,
[00:23:02] screen, sorry, which ended up with with you getting onto screen. Right.
[00:23:05] Right. But loads of other jobs first first and then I did end up as a
[00:23:09] a newsreader on the local station, station, but I wasn't sort of my
[00:23:12] my end game particularly. I was sort sort of enjoying being in the newsroom newsroom and writing the scripts,
[00:23:16] scripts, to be honest, as a subeditor.
[00:23:20] subeditor. But it did propel me in in front of a camera. So, you know,
[00:23:23] know, when I got back to the UK,
[00:23:25] UK, I was in a position to be able
[00:23:28] able to look around a bit more and and actually got a job as a reporter
[00:23:31] reporter at Thames TV. And then there there was this audition for this
[00:23:34] this new programme called Treasure Treasure Hunt, and they were looking
[00:23:38] looking for a fit bloke and I somehow somehow went along to the audition
[00:23:42] audition and we did a fake run around around Hyde Park. And after all these
[00:23:45] these other Olympic athletes had had had their go. And I heard Graham,
[00:23:48] Graham, the cameraman, say to Malcolm, Malcolm, the producer afterwards, afterwards, it's got to be Annie.
[00:23:52] Annie. She's the only one I can keep keep up with. So I got the job for
[00:23:56] for all the wrong reasons. But you you know, if I reflect back, one
[00:24:00] one of the things I'm most pleased pleased about is I'm told my programme's
[00:24:04] programme's really changed the media media landscape and most importantly, importantly, changed the way we look
[00:24:07] look at women because you forget forget you've just heard my O level
[00:24:10] level thing. But up till then women women were studio bound. This is
[00:24:14] is the early 80s, usually flanked flanked by many men or Benny Hill
[00:24:17] Hill was chasing them around a car car park dressed in a bikini. Well,
[00:24:21] Well, the woman, not Benny Hill or or they were draped over a car, you
[00:24:24] you know, on a quiz show. It needed needed something to disrupt the way
[00:24:28] way we looked at women and Treasure Treasure hunt just happened to be
[00:24:31] be that show. And as I say, I got got the job for all the wrong reasons.
[00:24:34] reasons. But I was in control. There There were no doors. There's wind
[00:24:37] wind in my hair calling the shots. shots. It was mind blowing at the
[00:24:40] the time and all the jeopardy of of my childhood and that time in
[00:24:43] in Hong Kong, living on my wits. wits. It all went into that role
[00:24:47] role and challenge. Anneka just came
[00:24:50] came out of that because I saw the the huge budgets that went into producing
[00:24:54] producing Treasure hunt and I thought, thought, what if I could invent a
[00:24:57] a show where you'd have all that that money to, to create something,
[00:25:01] something, but instead of it just just being a show that, you know, know, you either watch or you don't
[00:25:05] don't watch on a VHS because there's there's no streaming back, then let's
[00:25:08] let's do something that lasts. And And I went to see this show called
[00:25:11] called Chicken Shed, which is a sort sort of integrated theatre group
[00:25:15] group for children with disabilities. disabilities. And on the stage I
[00:25:18] I literally saw children in wheelchairs wheelchairs being pushed by able
[00:25:21] able bodied children. There was a
[00:25:25] a signer signing for a deaf child. child. There were blind children,
[00:25:28] children, there were Down's Syndrome Syndrome children, and there was was Ferris in the middle. It was
[00:25:32] was called Ferris in Wonderland, Wonderland, locked in her autistic
[00:25:34] autistic world. I want to go on. on. We're running a little low on
[00:25:38] on time. That's my only concern. concern. It was mind blowing because because I suddenly saw a community
[00:25:42] community on that stage and I literally literally realised that that was
[00:25:46] was what challenge was about. And And I just ran into Michael Grade's Grade's office at the BBC and said,
[00:25:50] said, can we do this? We want to to make the impossible possible.
[00:25:53] possible. And he said, yeah. That's
[00:25:56] That's it for this edition of The The Media Show. As ever, thanks very
[00:25:59] very much indeed for your company.
[00:26:01] company. Bye-bye. Bye. And if you'd
[00:26:04] you'd like to hear a longer version
[00:26:06] version of today's show, search BBC
[00:26:09] BBC The Media Show wherever you get
[00:26:11] get your BBC podcasts.
[00:28:16] have on inflation. What will it all all mean for Europe's economy? That's That's this week on Talking Business
[00:28:19] Business here on BBC News.
[00:28:30] That's this week on Talking Business here on BBC News. To Business here on BBC News. To me, trust is about presence. About
[00:28:33] fostering relationships all around around the world over years. We're
[00:28:37] We're not chasing stories. We're We're already there. It's about patience.
[00:28:41] patience. Not rushing to be the first first but striving to get it right,
[00:28:44] right, to. Get to the truth. Precision.
[00:28:47] Precision. Knowledge. Facts. Wading
[00:28:49] Wading through endless waves of disinformation. disinformation. We can't just ask
[00:28:53] ask the questions. We have to question
[00:28:55] question the answers. Debate, debate, debate, debate. We have to create
[00:28:59] create a space for opposing voices voices to be heard and challenged.
[00:29:03] challenged. We fight every day to
[00:29:05] to earn your trust. And we never
[00:29:07] never take it for granted. We capture
[00:29:10] capture the story. Fact check the
[00:29:11] the story. We break the story. We
[00:29:14] We explore the story. So you can
[00:29:16] can trust us to tell it. MUSIC
[00:29:32] Being able to inspire someone
[00:29:34] is always the greatest joy. I saw saw Souza one time at the Grammys,
[00:29:38] Grammys, and she said that she studied studied some of my songs for her her songwriting, and I thought that
[00:29:42] that that was the biggest compliment
[00:29:43] compliment ever. My support for Ukraine
[00:29:46] Ukraine is unwavering. It is 100%
[00:29:50] 100% when the big names talk, they
[00:29:52] they talk to us.
[00:30:10] Live from Washington. This is
[00:30:12] BBC News. Russia hammers Ukraine Ukraine for another night as Ukraine's
[00:30:15] Ukraine's president vows retaliation retaliation if Russian strikes on
[00:30:18] on the country's energy grid continue.
[00:30:22] continue. And the BBC goes inside
[00:30:24] inside Yemen as Saudi backed government government forces work to regain
[00:30:27] regain control of coastal land from from the Houthis. As the ongoing
[00:30:31] ongoing war takes a toll on the population.
[00:30:34] population. This whole area has just
[00:30:36] just been retaken by pro-government
[00:30:38] pro-government forces. They captured captured at about three days ago.
[00:30:42] ago. Until then, the Houthis were
[00:30:44] were in control here. Hello, I'm
[00:30:54] I'm Amanda Walker. We start in Ukraine, Ukraine, where residents there have
[00:30:58] have faced another night