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20260915 003000 UTC
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[00:00:12] And now on BBC Persian TV, current affairs.
[00:00:16] In January 2002, a few weeks
[00:00:18] after the fall of the first
[00:00:22] Taliban government, the Kabul Weekly was republished.
[00:00:25] It was one of the first independent media outlets during a period that
[00:00:29] led to 20 years of unprecedented media flourishing in Afghanistan
[00:00:32] and a unique opportunity for Persian-speaking journalism.
[00:00:36] Fahim Dashty, the editor of this weekly,
[00:00:39] said: "Without an independent press, a democratic country cannot be
[00:00:42] built." A few months before that, on September 9,
[00:00:45] 2001, he had survived an explosion in which Ahmad Shah
[00:00:49] Massoud was assassinated. Twenty years later, with the return
[00:00:53] of the Taliban, this time not as a journalist, but as
[00:00:56] the spokesperson for the National Resistance Front, he went to Panjshir.
[00:01:00] On Sunday, September 5, 2021, the news of Fahim
[00:01:03] Dashty's death arrived. Three days before that, he had
[00:01:07] given his last interview to me. Now, five
[00:01:11] years later, with Sayara Dashty, his wife and the director
[00:01:14] of the Fahim Dashty Foundation, I will talk about his life
[00:01:17] and journalistic legacy, a generation that had 20 years of unprecedented
[00:01:21] opportunity to experience media freedom in
[00:01:24] Afghanistan. I am Farnaz Ghazizadeh, and this is a special
[00:01:28] interview with Sayara Dashty.
[00:01:45] Sayara Dashty, welcome to this special interview. Thank
[00:01:48] you for talking to me. It's been five years since Fahim
[00:01:52] Dashty was killed. If you want to describe him, what kind of person
[00:01:55] was he? Hello to you and your viewers.
[00:01:58] Thank you for your time. I think I should
[00:02:02] start by talking about a more
[00:02:06] important topic because I think it's necessary.
[00:02:09] Here, Fahim Jan started his first work
[00:02:12] at the Kabul Weekly.
[00:02:15] Those were the years when the new Islamic
[00:02:18] government had started its activities,
[00:02:21] and Fahim Jan, with
[00:02:24] his colleagues and the team they had,
[00:02:28] tried to deliver accurate news to the people.
[00:02:32] And it should be noted that at that time,
[00:02:35] the founder of the Kabul Weekly
[00:02:39] was the national hero, the martyr Ahmad Shah Massoud. And this
[00:02:42] itself shows how much value
[00:02:46] they placed on youth and media.
[00:02:49] This was a very
[00:02:52] valuable experience for Fahim
[00:02:55] Jan in the media sector.
[00:02:59] And
[00:03:16] later, until his martyrdom,
[00:03:20] he followed that same path and chose
[00:03:22] it. That is, he made himself
[00:03:25] from that
[00:03:28] air. You
[00:03:36] mentioned Ahmad Shah Massoud. We know how close Fahim Dashty was to Ahmad Shah Massoud,
[00:03:39] and in the incident
[00:03:42] that led to the assassination of Mr. Massoud,
[00:03:46] Mr. Dashty was severely injured, but
[00:03:49] he survived.
[00:03:52] Were you familiar with him then? Were you married to him then
[00:03:56] when he was injured in that
[00:04:00] explosion? We had already married
[00:04:03] and had a child, my eldest
[00:04:06] child, Idris, who was four months old at that time.
[00:04:10] I can imagine that at that time, communication facilities were not as
[00:04:14] readily available as they are now. What was your feeling when
[00:04:17] the news of the assassination
[00:04:21] came? Indeed, at that time, it was not
[00:04:25] easy to make contact. Even weeks
[00:04:29] passed until a message arrived or until
[00:04:32] news could reach families.
[00:04:35] As you said, it was very
[00:04:39] difficult. It was very difficult.
[00:04:42] I personally did not know immediately,
[00:04:46] but a day later, when I
[00:04:49] found out, in a way that they didn't say what,
[00:04:53] they said it was a very minor thing,
[00:04:57] and they didn't know about the commander.
[00:05:12] There was news written about it,
[00:05:16] and of course, the family knew
[00:05:20] about this matter. The only one who was unaware
[00:05:23] was me. After they suddenly
[00:05:27] told me that we could go back to
[00:05:30] Tajikistan because my family lived
[00:05:33] in Tajikistan, only I had come to Panjshir
[00:05:37] after marrying Fahim Jan to live.
[00:05:39] It was really
[00:06:12] difficult until I reached Dushanbe,
[00:06:15] Tajikistan, and went to the hospital.
[00:06:19] Then on the way to the hospital,
[00:06:23] they told me that we were going to the hospital. I
[00:06:27] asked why. The moment I arrived, that is,
[00:06:30] afterwards, they said that Fahim Jan
[00:06:33] was seriously injured. It was then that I
[00:06:36] became seriously injured afterwards. Of course, I went
[00:06:39] and saw that Massoud Khalili was there. And Fahim
[00:06:43] Jan was there. Both of them were in a room
[00:06:47] in a very difficult situation,
[00:06:50] and it was something I had never imagined
[00:06:54] I would encounter. About three or four months later, when the Taliban
[00:06:58] government fell in Kabul, the first
[00:07:01] thing Fahim Dashty did was to relaunch
[00:07:04] the Kabul Weekly, because
[00:07:08] we know that during the Taliban era, publications were completely banned.
[00:07:34] After Fahim Jan was transferred from Tajikistan
[00:07:38] to France for treatment, of course,
[00:07:41] only four months later. He returned. I don't remember exactly,
[00:07:45] I think it was four months later, and
[00:07:48] they started the Kabul Weekly again.
[00:07:52] They worked on it with the help of the French.
[00:07:56] They re-established this weekly, and as I
[00:07:59] said, for Fahim Jan,
[00:08:02] it was a legacy from Commander Massoud
[00:08:06] that the Kabul Weekly and its path were his.
[00:08:09] He had a clear goal.
[00:08:13] And he dedicated all his time, everything, at a time
[00:08:17] when he was very sick, his hands were not working
[00:08:20] at all. His hands could not
[00:08:23] move, that is, Fahim Jan was so burned in the incident
[00:08:26] with Commander that
[00:08:30] his fingers could not move. He was stuck.
[00:08:34] Despite those problems, despite
[00:08:37] his physical condition not
[00:08:40] being good, he started the Kabul Weekly.
[00:08:43] At that time, many people came back to
[00:08:47] Afghanistan and started political work, other
[00:08:50] work. But it is quoted from him that
[00:08:53] he said in different places that no
[00:08:57] country can be democratic without independent media.
[00:09:01] Why did he put all his
[00:09:04] efforts into journalism? You lived with him. What did
[00:09:08] he say about journalism? He had a passion
[00:09:11] for journalism.
[00:10:12] The media was active. Besides the Kabul Weekly,
[00:10:16] they also had other courses that were active,
[00:10:20] which was very difficult at that time.
[00:10:23] And this was the first weekly that had started its activities,
[00:10:27] and some young people who were interested would come with
[00:10:30] such enthusiasm. And Fahim Jan worked
[00:10:34] with them. That period of the Republic
[00:10:37] of Afghanistan is an exceptional period in Persian-speaking media
[00:10:40] in general. It is not even exclusive to
[00:10:44] Afghanistan, because during that period, the media in Afghanistan
[00:10:47] was experiencing something that was not even possible
[00:10:51] for the media in Iran. This is actually an environment where censorship
[00:11:25] I'm going to cover up, because that's what Fahim Jan shared with me,
[00:11:28] and I can't not
[00:11:32] say it. After that,
[00:11:35] time passed. Time passed.
[00:11:38] These kinds of times came much more often, where if
[00:11:42] something was written about a minister, a threat would come from his
[00:11:46] office, or if any personality
[00:11:49] was criticized, it was clear that at that
[00:11:53] time, it was very
[00:12:55] It was also multilingual, but we know that Fahim Dashty
[00:12:59] had an exceptional attachment and interest in the Persian
[00:13:02] language. He was very interested in the Persian language.
[00:13:06] Did this issue cause
[00:13:09] a disagreement? That is, he himself was a journalist,
[00:13:12] he was someone who was really in love with his
[00:13:16] profession. Fahim Jan's concern was not only Persian-speaking
[00:13:19] media or the Persian language,
[00:13:23] but Fahim Jan's concern was how media
[00:13:26] freedom of expression could
[00:13:29] reach its quality, that is,
[00:13:32] truly have freedom of expression.
[00:13:35] And you are witnesses
[00:13:38] that after the Kabul Weekly, when he was also the head of the Union
[00:13:41] of Journalists, Fahim Jan tried very hard in this
[00:13:45] area, and indeed, as you said,
[00:13:49] Iran did not even have the freedom
[00:13:53] that they could
[00:13:55] truly express themselves freely.
[00:13:59] Other places where Persian speakers at that
[00:14:02] time could not express themselves or
[00:14:06] write in that way. But
[00:14:09] it should be noted that Fahim Dashty was really someone who tried
[00:14:13] very hard in this area, in this direction of freedom
[00:14:16] of expression. He worked very hard with
[00:14:20] a group of colleagues
[00:14:22] and friends who, thank God, are still
[00:14:25] active. How much did Mr. Dashty see himself as a national
[00:14:29] figure? How much did he see himself
[00:14:33] as a Tajik
[00:14:34] figure?
[00:14:38] Without a doubt, it is clear
[00:14:41] that but again, I tell you,
[00:14:45] Fahim Jan's concern was not just Persian. Fahim Jan's concern
[00:14:49] was true freedom of expression. Fahim Jan's
[00:14:52] concern was that we could truly
[00:14:56] have access and freedom
[00:14:59] of expression in terms of democracy,
[00:15:03] that it would not be individual,
[00:15:06] that is, he really wanted
[00:15:08] to
[00:15:11] be able to make
[00:15:15] the best possible
[00:15:17] replacements in Afghanistan.
[00:15:21] I ask this because Mr. Dashty,
[00:15:25] in the last weeks of his life, changed
[00:15:28] from a journalist to the spokesperson for the resistance front. I want to know
[00:15:32] how this change happened. As you said, he spent his entire
[00:15:35] life trying to be a journalist. What happened that he thought
[00:15:39] it was time to enter
[00:15:41] a struggle?
[00:15:44] You know that the years of the Republic
[00:15:48] went on for a long time, the process of state
[00:15:52] governance became corrupt. In that way,
[00:15:55] it should have remained and improved,
[00:15:58] but on the contrary, it worsened.
[00:16:01] And Fahim Jan, as far as I
[00:16:04] used to talk at home.
[00:16:11] The level of expression had gone up because
[00:16:15] he didn't want to see that
[00:16:19] really human rights
[00:16:22] didn't exist, women's rights didn't exist,
[00:16:25] and gradually all our values were being
[00:16:29] trampled. So
[00:16:31] he decided that he would gradually move
[00:16:34] towards politics. But then also use
[00:16:37] the political aspect and also try
[00:16:40] to succeed as much
[00:16:43] as possible.
[00:16:45] This was the only reason. And there is another
[00:16:49] thing that he was very much looking
[00:16:52] forward to having a true
[00:16:56] leader with emotions come
[00:16:59] to Afghanistan who could save Afghanistan from
[00:17:02] this situation. I think that at that
[00:17:05] time, Fahim Jan's decision was to
[00:17:09] have Mr. Ahmad Massoud return from his studies
[00:17:12] and start his political
[00:17:14] work
[00:17:18] in the field of politics. Why did he stay in Afghanistan
[00:17:21] and go to Panjshir, while many of the country's political
[00:17:24] figures had left the country? Many
[00:17:28] of the resistance front figures were in Tajikistan.
[00:17:31] بودن
[00:17:36] Fahim Jan absolutely did not want to leave
[00:17:39] Afghanistan, especially Panjshir, for any reason,
[00:17:43] and he absolutely did not want to
[00:17:47] leave Ahmad Massoud alone, even in
[00:17:50] our last conversations when he went to Panjshir.
[00:17:53] بگذارن
[00:17:56] And he loved Panjshir. He loved his
[00:17:59] people. That's why if they had
[00:18:03] the opportunity to leave Panjshir, and
[00:18:37] And Fahim Jan also had much more chances,
[00:18:41] but he preferred not to leave the country.
[00:18:44] He preferred to go to Panjshir and stay
[00:18:47] with his people. Five years ago, around these days,
[00:18:51] I conducted Fahim Dashty's last interview with
[00:18:54] him right here at the BBC. And three
[00:18:57] days later, he was killed in Panjshir. Were you
[00:19:00] aware of the circumstances of the interview when
[00:19:04] you saw it? Were you in contact with him at all?
[00:19:11] I mean, for a day or two, in total, for a day
[00:19:14] or two, I was not in contact with them,
[00:19:17] but otherwise, I had continuous contact
[00:19:20] with them. Even on the day they were martyred, I
[00:19:24] was in contact with them until 1:30 in the afternoon,
[00:19:27] until 1:30 p.m.
[00:19:31] Afterwards, it was around 3 or 4 o'clock
[00:19:34] when the news came that Dashty had been martyred.
[00:19:56] Many narratives reached our ears, especially
[00:20:00] at that time. You are witness
[00:20:03] to the fact that many things were
[00:20:06] brought up and said. It was clear that it was not
[00:20:10] easy, neither for me nor for the children.
[00:20:13] Those were very difficult, harsh days, and we still
[00:20:17] haven't recovered from them. Your reference is to the claim
[00:20:21] that was made about a number that was shown
[00:20:24] for a few moments on the TV screen during a Zoom call, and
[00:20:28] it was said that this helped identify his location. The BBC, of course,
[00:20:32] said that this number was a Zoom ID and could not
[00:20:35] pinpoint his location. But you yourself
[00:20:38] previously spoke to me and said that you had not reached
[00:20:41] any definitive
[00:20:43] conclusion about it. Five years after that incident, how
[00:20:47] do you see it? Why do you think Fahim Dashty's death
[00:20:50] was accompanied by this news and these issues?
[00:20:54] Dear Farnaz, if you ask truthfully, I still
[00:20:58] haven't reached any
[00:20:59] conclusion.
[00:21:03] But as far as I and Dashty's friends
[00:21:06] have investigated and progressed, that is, five years later, I agreed
[00:21:10] to do an interview with you. This itself shows that
[00:21:14] perhaps to some extent, we may
[00:21:17] have found
[00:21:50] It was not something clearer
[00:21:52] that we could find so far.
[00:21:56] I want to go back to Fahim Dashty's
[00:21:59] legacy. We know that he was a prominent
[00:22:03] Persian-speaking journalist, as we discussed in this program,
[00:22:06] not just for Afghanistan, but for Persian
[00:22:10] journalism as a whole, Fahim Dashty is a very
[00:22:14] important person. When 20
[00:22:17] years later, exactly 20 years later, the Taliban
[00:22:21] came to power, the media returned to the darkness
[00:22:25] that existed before,
[00:22:28] during the first Taliban era. What was the
[00:22:32] legacy of these 20 years, in your opinion? You followed
[00:22:36] this situation closely, you lived these 20 years closely.
[00:22:39] What was the legacy of these 20 years for Afghan
[00:22:42] society, do you think?
[00:22:46] I think that the 20 years
[00:22:49] of effort that was made not only in the field
[00:22:52] of media and freedom
[00:22:55] of expression, but in every area you can think of,
[00:22:58] people made their effort.
[00:23:01] Especially the media. I want to talk specifically about the media.
[00:23:05] 20 years. Currently, I see the situation
[00:23:09] as much better. Currently, you see
[00:23:12] people, especially the news that has come out
[00:23:15] of Afghanistan, they are active and have not allowed
[00:23:18] که
[00:23:50] it to be finished, and the 20 years of effort
[00:23:53] to reach zero. Although the Taliban
[00:23:57] tried, currently you see that there is no
[00:24:00] media in Afghanistan that can speak
[00:24:04] freely and convey its
[00:24:07] message to the people. There is absolutely
[00:24:10] no freedom of expression in Afghanistan.
[00:24:14] But fortunately, those who have left
[00:24:17] Afghanistan have been able to some extent.
[00:24:50] They are working, and we want to hold some courses,
[00:24:53] and one or two courses
[00:24:55] were successfully completed
[00:24:59] in the field of media.
[00:25:02] Especially for the prisoners
[00:25:05] we have from the media,
[00:25:08] we are trying to figure out how to address
[00:25:11] their concerns and advocate for them.
[00:25:14] And also, especially for girls who have been deprived
[00:25:17] of education and other
[00:25:20] things. The first five journalism
[00:25:23] classes that were started, our effort is to be able to
[00:25:27] arrange scholarships for
[00:25:31] them so that they can resume their studies,
[00:25:35] whether online or in person, so that they can
[00:25:38] achieve what they want. And it should be noted
[00:25:42] that currently, we are very busy
[00:25:45] trying to transfer a number
[00:25:49] of girls to study journalism
[00:25:53] outside Afghanistan so that they can continue
[00:25:56] their education, and God willing, in 2027,
[00:26:00] we will be able to do this. Sayara Dashty, Director of the
[00:26:03] Fahim Dashty Foundation, thank you for giving your time
[00:26:06] to this program. Thank you. You're welcome.
[00:26:27] They use fake names. Their phones are disposable.
[00:26:31] And
[00:26:47] in an era when free and stable access to information
[00:26:51] is not always guaranteed, BBC Persian, with its weekly
[00:26:55] newsletter every Thursday, selects the best and sends
[00:26:58] it directly to your email. By subscribing to the BBC
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[00:27:18] شوید
[00:27:22] This week's tech news from Click. Do you think there's
[00:27:26] a connection between the increase in second-hand book sales and
[00:27:30] artificial intelligence? Some publishers believe that, yes, apparently
[00:27:34] AI companies have focused on second-hand books. The BBC
[00:27:38] has spoken to a number of booksellers who say they have received
[00:27:41] unusual and bulk orders, many of which
[00:27:44] were for old and low-demand books. Sales of second-hand
[00:27:48] books have increased globally in recent months, but not just
[00:27:51] bestsellers. Booksellers say they are receiving
[00:27:55] large orders for books that some of them
[00:27:58] haven't had customers for years. One bookseller
[00:28:02] told the BBC that they usually
[00:28:04] sell 2-3,000 books a week, but recently, a single
[00:28:08] Canadian company placed an order equivalent to a week's sales.
[00:28:12] But where are these books going
[00:28:16] and why are so many books, even old and low-demand books,
[00:28:19] being bought all at once? One hypothesis is that some
[00:28:23] of these books are being bought to train artificial intelligence,
[00:28:27] because AI models need a very large
[00:28:30] amount of data for training. This happens at
[00:28:34] a time when the discussion about using books to train AI
[00:28:37] has already made headlines. One of the important examples
[00:28:41] is Anthropik, the creator of the Claude chatbot.
[00:28:45] During a lawsuit this company had in the US, documents were
[00:28:49] released that showed Anthropik had access to a large
[00:28:52] collection of books to train its AI models. These documents
[00:28:56] describe a process for extensive scanning of books.
[00:28:59] A process in which the spine of a book may be cut
[00:29:03] so that the pages can be scanned at high speed,
[00:29:06] and then the rest of the book is sent
[00:29:10] for recycling. Anthropik has stated that it has no plans
[00:29:13] to buy and destroy rare or antique books. But this
[00:29:17] very possibility is the main concern of booksellers. The concern
[00:29:20] is that books are bought only for their content.
[00:29:23] That is, they are scanned, their information is entered
[00:29:26] into AI systems, and then the physical book itself is destroyed.
[00:29:30] For a book that has millions of copies, this
[00:29:34] might not be a big deal. But if an old book
[00:29:36] has only a few copies left, destroying even
[00:29:40] one copy could mean the permanent loss of a
[00:29:44] part of written heritage. If you are active in the technology
[00:29:47] field or interested in artificial intelligence,
[00:29:51] send me a message on
[00:29:52] Instagram and write your comments.
[00:29:57] Click, every week on BBC
[00:29:59] Persian.
[00:30:20] Headlines. Trump's
[00:30:23] claim about Tehran's insistence on a quick agreement,
[00:30:27] simultaneously, the US re-sanctioned a sanctioned Russian bank
[00:30:30] due to its connection with Iran.
[00:30:33] Well, this was an opportunity
[00:30:36] that Iran and Oman
[00:30:39] provided.
[00:30:41] Iran's claim about the reason for canceling its meeting
[00:30:45] with the Persian Gulf countries in Oman. The Ministry
[00:30:48] of Foreign Affairs spokesperson says it was at
[00:30:51] Saudi Arabia's request.
[00:30:54] The rioters in fact, a threat.