BBCPERSIAN — broadcast
20261102 130000 UTC
412 transcript segments
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[00:00:00] That means when you look at the data now, for example, the words of the vice president of America are not
[00:00:03] a single dish. The JCPOA was for a period
[00:00:07] when there was no talk of Trump, but Trump came and trampled it,
[00:00:10] but in Venezuela, in the end, we see that what
[00:00:14] has happened, that is, the axis of American foreign policy, because
[00:00:17] I understand that many methods of foreign policy will change,
[00:00:21] but foreign policy in America in
[00:00:24] the end does not change much with the change of governments. For example, you can look at this in relation to China.
[00:00:27] Obama must
[00:00:45] war is the product of the behavior of the Islamic Republic. The Islamic Republic that
[00:00:49] creates proxies and officially
[00:00:52] comes and says in its diplomacy and foreign policy
[00:00:56] that I want to annihilate such and such a country, it is actually considered war.
[00:01:30] He was the leader of the resistance movement against Nazism, and
[00:01:32] Petain was the leader of a government that collaborated with Nazism.
[00:01:36] What conclusion do you want to reach? I'm telling you that when you become
[00:01:40] the language of war, you help that foreign government
[00:01:43] that has been planning to attack Iran
[00:01:47] for years. For example, when Isaac
[00:01:50] Rabin and Shimon Peres wanted to
[00:01:53] sign the agreement for the government,
[00:01:56] who Charles de Gaulle got support from the governments that fought against
[00:02:00] Nazism. But he didn't become their voice,
[00:02:04] meaning de Gaulle succeeded. You see,
[00:02:07] de Gaulle was first of all in the French army. He was 48 years old, not outside the country,
[00:02:11] he was in the French army. He succeeded in gaining the support of
[00:02:14] Roosevelt in that period.
[00:02:18] Have you ever seen anyone gain the support of Trump? Just
[00:02:21] yesterday, we saw how beautifully the US Secretary of State spoke about
[00:02:25] ancient Iran in Greece.
[00:02:28] It is Islamist.
[00:03:01] Yes, in the Islamic Republic, which is an enemy, in foreign policy, in foreign
[00:03:04] policy, sanctions and war are tools, not goals.
[00:03:08] Because a government based on national interests cannot
[00:03:11] go to war without national interests.
[00:03:15] And in fact, no opposition can act against national interests
[00:03:19] in the name of opposition. There are three groups that have the same discourse
[00:03:22] in the past year. One of them is a part of America that we even
[00:03:26] saw in the Democrats. I saw someone of Iranian descent from the Democrats
[00:03:30] on TV the other day who said, "Let's go bomb them easily."
[00:03:34] There are Republican neoconservatives who,
[00:03:37] I have seen their hatred of Iran in their words for years. One of them
[00:03:41] is the Netanyahu and Ben-Gvir faction who spoke of destroying
[00:03:45] Tehran in the 12-day war, up to atomic bombs and so on.
[00:03:49] And there is a faction in Iran that is steadfast and so on, for whom war
[00:03:53] is a blessing. Who has benefited from circumventing sanctions? The profiteers and a part of
[00:03:56] the opposition that we don't have
[00:03:59] is 100 times more responsible than the Islamic Republic
[00:04:03] that we are fighting against. They also use the same discourse.
[00:04:07] Why, for example, on November 7th
[00:04:09] in Germany, we are witnessing that
[00:04:13] the freedom prize, because it's a very interesting
[00:04:16] example, is being awarded to the Prince
[00:04:19] because exactly, it is written in the text of the award that he
[00:04:23] represents, and then it was very interesting to me that a group
[00:04:26] of activists came and corresponded with
[00:04:32] No, it's not like that. And then again, in his answer, he says, look, there are groups,
[00:04:36] there is diversity, but he represents the largest movement.
[00:04:40] So I'm here with you,
[00:04:43] this organization is the decision-maker. We were talking about the US government,
[00:04:46] no, I want to say that you see, Mr.
[00:04:50] Ahmadi, to make it clear what you are talking about, this is an award
[00:04:53] given by a German think tank,
[00:04:57] and as you said, they
[00:05:01] say that the person they know is Prince Reza
[00:05:04] Pahlavi, and
[00:05:08] about 80 German personalities,
[00:05:11] some of whom are former politicians, some of whom are academics, public figures, came
[00:05:15] and protested, saying that he is the only
[00:05:19] representative of the voice of the Iranian people, and according to
[00:05:22] them, he has even created a rift among the opposition. I do not
[00:05:26] accept that the diaspora necessarily says
[00:05:29] what is the desire of a
[00:05:33] specific group. At least, I am a person whose
[00:05:37] actions are more focused on civil society. Well, I see that during these
[00:05:40] seven or eight months, what was previously imagined in Iran, for example,
[00:05:43] about the Islamic Republic, that if we come in millions, the Islamic Republic will be eliminated,
[00:05:47] in the society itself, it has turned into
[00:05:51] us needing to change our methods. Now, if
[00:05:54] the Prince comes and mentions it in an interview or a report,
[00:05:58] it doesn't necessarily mean that he is speaking his own mind.
[00:06:02] It means that he is also monitoring the internal data
[00:06:06] and trying to play the essential role of
[00:06:10] a knowledge base that now the Islamic Republic wants to use for propaganda.
[00:06:42] I can't sit here silently and not criticize Iran
[00:06:46] but immediately criticize three American soldiers. Excuse
[00:06:49] me, dear America, this and that. Or that there is no talk about
[00:06:53] the Dena ship, about the young people who were killed, for nothing,
[00:06:57] for nothing. If someone on the other side has a big Israel project or
[00:07:01] wants to do anything, that's their problem.
[00:07:04] If they want to create a failed state in Iran, let them do it. But
[00:07:08] here, the opposition and I must confront them, not play their game.
[00:07:12] You see, when we say that humanitarian aid is on the way,
[00:07:16] military forces have joined me, people come out. Then
[00:07:19] we say that Starlinks have arrived. We didn't
[00:07:23] see any of these. Iranian society was in complete darkness for 3 months.
[00:07:27] We must accept mistakes. These are not tactical mistakes,
[00:07:30] these are lessons dictated,
[00:07:33] in my opinion, by the Netanyahu government.
[00:07:37] And it's not just the movement of Prince Reza Pahlavi. There were other
[00:07:40] factions too. When they come and say we armed this, and then
[00:07:44] he sits in front of the media and says, "I'm ready to go to Iran,"
[00:07:48] and an American sits across from him and says, "I'm waiting to see where it gets liberated."
[00:07:52] Well, that means collapse, it means disintegration, it means civil war.
[00:07:55] What does it mean for us to want a certain ethnic group? Mr. Mark
[00:07:59] Levin writes every day, "Arm the Iranian people." He allows himself to come and support him,
[00:08:02] and he doesn't say a word. In
[00:08:05] Israel, one strategy is to disintegrate Iran. So we know this.
[00:08:09] The groups that but the Prince never, I want
[00:08:13] to emphasize that he, well, I say he, other groups
[00:08:16] also, at least the groups that we know are pro-Iran,
[00:08:20] have always shown their independence
[00:08:23] with these repeated positions, preserved it, and are not
[00:08:27] willing to accept any foreign policy
[00:08:31] from any government.
[00:08:33] Why
[00:08:35] did they support arming the Iranian people from this very UN
[00:08:39] organization on Fox News? This is an evolved
[00:08:42] method of struggle. I mean, I'll give an example. For example, during
[00:08:46] the Constitutional Revolution, you know, at one point, I said
[00:08:50] the diaspora came and produced books, created ideas,
[00:08:53] but it wasn't just those books and ideas that led to victory.
[00:08:57] In the end, Sattar Khan and Baqer
[00:09:00] Khan were also added. I mean, I want to say that this is the evolution of our
[00:09:04] lived experience in the fight against the Islamic Republic. A
[00:09:07] humanitarian catastrophe occurred in December. This was not
[00:09:10] a failure. First of all, according to Reza
[00:09:14] Pahlavi himself, they once said they started from 12,000 and
[00:09:18] it reached 40,000. These numbers went up so much. They say so many people
[00:09:22] have been killed. So this is a responsibility
[00:09:25] on their shoulders. I mean, you can't put people in harm's way,
[00:09:29] and then the Mossad spokesperson says, "Come," and then you don't accept it. Then he
[00:09:32] comes on Fox News and says, "Give me the blocked money," which is
[00:09:36] propaganda, because we know how US law is after the Carter era. Money
[00:09:40] is not given to anyone. "Give this to me. Let's send these
[00:09:43] armed people, these reformers, to Iran." Arming
[00:09:47] the Iranian nation means creating civil wars,
[00:09:50] it means creating a paper bankrupt government that will turn Iran into something
[00:09:54] like Syria and Lebanon, where they will come and bomb it every now and then,
[00:09:57] and destroy it. This has been discussed in other programs,
[00:10:00] but Ms. Golestan, your position
[00:10:04] also has serious criticisms. That is, you who believe
[00:10:07] that the diaspora abroad should be the voice of the Iranian
[00:10:10] people. One of the comments
[00:10:14] I read on social media says that
[00:10:18] when you become the voice of the Iranian
[00:10:21] people, well,
[00:10:25] you are actually saying that someone should experience it and I will
[00:10:29] be the loudspeaker, and then because you have more linguistic
[00:10:32] capabilities, because you have access to foreign media
[00:10:36] abroad, when you become our voice,
[00:10:39] gradually our voice inside becomes like your voice,
[00:10:43] and this is what happened. I got this from social media. That is,
[00:10:46] the constant voice of
[00:10:50] the diaspora abroad had made it so that the internal voice was not heard much.
[00:10:53] This didn't happen during the war. This itself
[00:10:57] is a criticism. Look, when we say being a voice, it has a political
[00:11:00] definition. Look, for example, when Mandela
[00:11:03] took over the leadership
[00:11:07] and came out of prison and started a dialogue with
[00:11:09] the South African government, it's very important to talk.
[00:11:12] This point many committees
[00:11:16] existed all over the world, and these committees
[00:11:19] worked and cooperated in a coordinated way, and
[00:11:23] there they succeeded in achieving a non-violent
[00:11:27] report. But these committees did not take the place of the internal voice
[00:11:31] of South Africa. Their voice did not
[00:11:34] take its place. No one is supposed to take anyone's place. We are supposed to
[00:11:37] be able to reflect without wanting to get on board with a movement
[00:11:41] or take advantage of a movement, or vice versa.
[00:11:45] I mean, becoming the voice of foreign governments. You yourself said before the program
[00:11:48] that the voice of the Iranian diaspora
[00:11:52] caused them to sell this war to the government.
[00:12:25] Iranian personality, whether pro or anti-Mohammad Reza Shah Pahlavi,
[00:12:28] hosted him there to the point that Egypt would say, "Don't come this year." My point is that
[00:12:32] your statement that the diaspora
[00:12:35] should be the voice of the Iranian people
[00:12:38] also has issues. No, I don't think so.
[00:12:42] When we can lobby in our own position,
[00:12:46] we can convey the voice of the interior, as you said, around a set
[00:12:48] of fundamental values like human rights,
[00:12:52] like secular democracy. You
[00:13:25] must be the voice. All my words are that the diaspora must find a common
[00:13:28] language, and it must be able to
[00:13:32] create interests. For example, after the Strait of Hormuz and the events that happened,
[00:13:35] today this ground has been laid for us to create
[00:13:39] common interests that will involve other diasporas. Even today, for example, China,
[00:13:43] even if you sit with the Chinese opposition, they will not accept
[00:13:46] that a government comes and appropriates a truly international
[00:13:49] trade route for its own benefit.
[00:13:52] So today, this opportunity, until yesterday, we had
[00:13:55] the opportunity to only talk about Israel,
[00:13:59] because Israel was the opposite and the target of the Islamic Republic's attack.
[00:14:03] Of course, the Israeli diaspora is one thing,
[00:14:06] but in the end, Israel and the Israeli flag are another.
[00:14:10] Today, the Strait of Hormuz, in my opinion, has created this opportunity
[00:14:14] for the diaspora to expand its commonalities
[00:14:16] and find allies and be able to
[00:14:20] and I emphasize again, for me,
[00:14:23] the national and pro-Iranian movement is a priority,
[00:14:27] and I base all my distinctions
[00:14:31] on this. What should the Iranian diaspora do regarding the Strait of Hormuz, in your opinion?
[00:14:34] I mean, should it defend that the Strait
[00:14:37] of Hormuz is not the mistake that the Islamic Republic
[00:14:41] made? For example, you are seeing its impact in Europe. It has created
[00:14:44] dissatisfactions in the economic
[00:14:48] then the ear of that European official is more open today as to why we are still talking about
[00:14:52] the danger of this current situation, which is caused
[00:15:07] by the Islamic Republic, and the Islamic Republic must be removed. This is something that Europeans know,
[00:15:11] they know from where. Europeans have been dealing with the Islamic Republic for 47 years. Why
[00:15:15] shouldn't they know what to do? Europeans, when
[00:15:19] Mr. America attacked Iran, came and asked for help.
[00:15:22] Because Netanyahu went to the White House 7 times,
[00:15:26] excuse me, 7 times, and said, "Attack, attack, attack." Her point, madam, is that
[00:15:30] her point is that
[00:15:33] the situation in the Strait of Hormuz and its impact
[00:15:36] on economies.
[00:15:47] the financial system of the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps and consulates and
[00:15:51] there are many strategies and tactics that for example in South Africa, which is also
[00:15:54] an example for you, have been experienced. Now today
[00:15:58] in fact, you should have political partners who are
[00:16:01] in fact decision makers and come and help you.
[00:16:05] The example of South Africa is a very good example of the point
[00:16:12] we were making, which was to say that the Islamic Republic is like South
[00:16:15] Africa, an apartheid. Now, that is racial apartheid, this is gender
[00:16:18] apartheid, and in fact, the representative of human
[00:16:22] rights of America at the UN, that
[00:16:25] lady, said it very beautifully, and then she was sidelined because global
[00:16:29] politics apparently didn't want it to go this way, and this discussion
[00:16:33] was closed. Right? So Europe is not
[00:16:36] an important decision-maker. It is one of the important players.
[00:16:39] The reality is that one of the important decision-makers is sitting in Washington.
[00:16:42] Washington wants to implement the peace project of
[00:16:46] 2025 in the Middle East, and here it is moving
[00:16:49] various actors forward through its representatives, Donald Trump,
[00:16:53] for example, in the region, such as Saudi Arabia,
[00:16:56] Pakistan, Egypt, and Turkey, sitting together to form
[00:16:59] a kind of NATO and so on, and see how they can bring about
[00:17:03] these changes in Iran so that they can bring this
[00:17:07] stability to the Middle East together, so that some investments can enter there.
[00:17:11] Now, what is my point? My point is that when we
[00:17:15] say, for example, Europeans, come and talk about the Strait of Hormuz,
[00:17:18] they themselves, the price of gasoline has gone up and the damages, and when America attacked
[00:17:22] Iran, they came and asked for help. Coincidentally, one of those who responded
[00:17:26] was Macron. Macron, the President of France, replied, "Well,
[00:17:30] did you ask for our opinion before attacking Iran so that now we should participate in this war?"
[00:17:33] Because they knew and said, "We know this will lead to an economic
[00:17:37] catastrophe, a crisis will be created." Then, from the other side, they go and
[00:17:41] provoke the countries of the Persian Gulf. They provoke them to say
[00:17:45] that the three islands, for example, belong to a country that is 78
[00:17:48] years old. Israel, Netanyahu, I understood, madam. The three
[00:17:51] islands, for example, excuse me, a country that came into existence 780 years ago, they say, "Go."
[00:17:55] And he says, "Come." Then a group of opposition comes on television
[00:17:58] and defends it. Yes, very
[00:18:01] groundlessly, for example, they target the countries of the Persian Gulf. I say, "No,
[00:18:05] that's Iran's territory." It's national sovereignty, and then
[00:18:08] the government. First, Iran must exist so that we can discuss
[00:18:12] it. Let me just mention a very important point that remains
[00:18:15] unsaid, Ms. Golestan.
[00:18:18] Theories are one thing, but the circumstances
[00:18:21] that befall a movement or
[00:18:25] a political movement
[00:18:27] are another thing. Those who talk about
[00:18:31] the role of the diaspora and its efforts
[00:18:34] to reflect the voice of the people
[00:18:38] or even lead and represent the voice of the people
[00:18:41] say that the political deadlock
[00:18:45] inside will inevitably place this responsibility
[00:18:48] on the diaspora and its representatives
[00:18:52] abroad. Despite the failures,
[00:18:54] shortcomings, and lobbying that you say
[00:18:58] is wrong, we are facing an existing situation
[00:19:01] that we must use. This is the gist of what
[00:19:04] those who may also be critical say. They may be critical
[00:19:08] of this or that movement, of dancing in the street with the Israeli flag, but
[00:19:11] they say there is no other way. Don't you think
[00:19:15] you are overlooking this? I mean, no other representative within
[00:19:18] the government is allowed to emerge.
[00:19:22] Outside, the representatives
[00:19:25] of the opposition are losing the trust
[00:19:28] of the people one after another, and in the end, the movement that becomes
[00:19:32] the dominant movement becomes the voice
[00:19:36] of the people, or, according to him, the representative of the people. No, you see, again, I
[00:19:40] repeat, during the Women, Life, Freedom Revolution, we had no
[00:19:43] specific leadership, but we saw what cultural,
[00:19:47] social, and political revolution it brought with it, and now
[00:19:51] civil campaigns are the same. That is, when you have a non-violent civil
[00:19:54] resistance movement starts in a country
[00:19:58] and becomes a national
[00:20:00] will, becomes a national will, no power can stand against it.
[00:20:04] If we assume, for example, this opposition
[00:20:08] or even those who represent a part of the opposition, after all, every
[00:20:12] group has some supporters, right? They come and start
[00:20:15] a movement that political prisoners in Iran should be released. Suppose 2
[00:20:19] million, 3 million, 4 million in Iran oppose or oppose
[00:20:22] executions. Now, before the execution, excuse me, let me say this, 4
[00:20:25] million people in Tehran go in front of the Ministry of Justice, which we don't have, well, it's called
[00:20:29] that. They stand and only chant that this social pressure
[00:20:32] will have an effect, like the women's movement, which no one thought
[00:20:36] would happen. That's why these non-violent civil
[00:20:39] pressures are what work. You see, the government of the Islamic Republic, today,
[00:20:43] is not the government of the Islamic Republic before the killing,
[00:20:46] the wilayat-e faqih, Ali Khamenei. He is not the one who is now the wilayat.
[00:21:20] The deadlock in Iran is fulfilling a movement abroad. Of course, there is also a footnote, Mr. Ahmadi, that
[00:21:24] you must answer, which is that this movement that has dominated
[00:21:27] abroad as the main movement
[00:21:31] of the diaspora has dominated because
[00:21:35] it shouts louder.
[00:21:39] You yourself admit that here it intimidates
[00:21:42] and actually marginalizes
[00:21:45] other movements or pushes them to the fringes. Therefore, it's not easy to say that abroad
[00:21:49] we have a movement that has dominated
[00:21:52] and lobbies, and other governments
[00:21:55] recognize it, and therefore, they must officially recognize it,
[00:21:59] because in what process has this become
[00:22:02] the dominant movement or is becoming
[00:22:05] it? I see its origin again within Iran
[00:22:08] itself, because, as I said, there is the experience of 2022, there is the experience
[00:22:11] of the charter, which actually inclined
[00:22:15] the diaspora and that product, which is understood in the form of the charter.
[00:22:19] What we are experiencing today was the gap that the people,
[00:22:23] that is, the legitimacy that the people inside did not give to that movement,
[00:22:26] and they did not understand the movement that way. They trusted
[00:22:30] someone else. Again, I say I don't know the coefficient of this trust
[00:22:34] to be 100, but they trusted someone else and a different
[00:22:37] method. But what I constantly
[00:22:41] emphasize and you distance yourself from
[00:22:44] is that when you are actually interpreting
[00:22:47] or analyzing Iran, you isolate it from a world where
[00:22:51] politics is international. Partners are not just
[00:22:54] America; China is also a partner of the Islamic Republic. We
[00:22:57] cannot analyze the situation in a vacuum. Politics is the art
[00:23:01] of the possible. You
[00:23:03] constantly insist on why the knowledge base went for this, went for that. Well,
[00:23:07] I said it went for this, I said why it became their language, why
[00:23:10] it became their proxy. The Islamic Republic also goes for its partners, and then
[00:23:14] we don't accept it. Please let me, my job is to accept
[00:23:17] or not accept that politics
[00:23:23] should not follow the same methods as the Islamic Republic. No, the methods
[00:23:27] of resolving, actually, creating
[00:23:30] global interest, which the Islamic Republic does not create for China.
[00:23:33] China has interests. That's why I say when you are talking about
[00:23:37] foreign policy, look at all the actors.
[00:23:41] If, for example, France has a plan
[00:23:44] for itself, this does not mean that this plan, the discussion of interests,
[00:23:47] in fact, you want to say that interests beyond
[00:23:51] Iranian interests, the part you belong to, can also create a common
[00:23:54] language with Israel, and can use this
[00:23:57] opportunity. And the second point is, if I am part of the diaspora, I must
[00:24:01] also have an active role. Just sitting and criticizing
[00:24:05] in the morning, in fact, more than helping the diaspora, it seems
[00:24:08] that I am indirectly helping the anti-movement,
[00:24:12] because it also wants very much. This is the same
[00:24:15] rhetoric that anyone who criticizes exactly,
[00:24:20] anyone who criticizes the Islamic Republic and in the past two years, anyone who has criticized
[00:24:23] the monarchist movement or Reza Pahlavi himself,
[00:24:27] exactly this label is attached to them: either leftist, or Mujahed, or
[00:24:30] Islamic Republic, or Mullah, or, for example, "Death to sophistication!" Such
[00:24:34] a huge division in the opposition really
[00:24:38] required an art that was done in two years.
[00:24:41] It required an art, for example, yesterday this video came out, for example,
[00:24:45] a female political prisoner, whether we like it or not, Narges Mohammadi
[00:24:49] is giving four.
[00:25:20] minutes of podcasting. We continue here until the end of this week's Pargar.
[00:25:23] Thank you for watching this discussion, as well as the guests
[00:25:27] of the program, Nazila
[00:25:29] Golestan and Abdolreza Ahmadi.
[00:25:33] And before the end of the program, a point I read
[00:25:36] in connection with one of our previous programs
[00:25:39] about the breaking of friendships due to political
[00:25:43] differences. I found it interesting
[00:25:46] and thought I would share it with you in this
[00:25:50] program. It's a study that showed that in America,
[00:25:53] liberals and opponents of Trump cut off more
[00:25:57] friendships as a result of political differences.
[00:26:01] Again, liberals had more experiences of breaking off friendships
[00:26:04] compared to Trump supporters. In this study,
[00:26:08] it is said
[00:26:09] that liberals, meaning
[00:26:13] supporters of the Democratic Party, opponents
[00:26:16] of Trump, said that they could not tolerate
[00:26:19] friendship with someone who supports Trump, and this
[00:26:23] was interesting to me. I think this
[00:26:26] is debatable. I wanted to share it with you to see if you think
[00:26:30] this is due to the excessive subtlety of liberals
[00:26:34] or the intolerance of Trump supporters.
[00:26:37] And I must also add that we
[00:26:41] have put a QR code on the page for you
[00:26:45] through which you can find the list of programs
[00:26:47] on BBC Persian YouTube.
[00:26:51] You can find almost all of our previous programs
[00:26:54] through this. Have a good day and night, everyone.
[00:26:58] Good. US midterm elections,
[00:27:18] a close race for both houses of Congress.
[00:27:22] Democrats' bid to control Congress in the midterm elections.
[00:27:26] War with Iran has caused a significant increase in the price of gasoline
[00:27:30] and diesel, and has intensified
[00:27:33] economic pressure on American voters. Will
[00:27:37] Republicans pay the price for Trump's declining popularity?
[00:27:40] What is the impact of these elections on the future
[00:27:43] of America? Stay with us for comprehensive coverage
[00:27:47] of the midterm elections from BBC
[00:27:49] Persian.
[00:27:55] We ourselves had sheep when the lake had water.
[00:27:59] We had 2000 sheep. Now we have 200.
[00:28:14] Hamoun, for the sake of its people. Once upon a time, Hamoun
[00:28:18] this week on Aparat.
[00:30:19] Headlines. I can say that now we have reached
[00:30:21] a two-day plan. Tehran announces readiness
[00:30:24] to open the Strait of Hormuz in 48
[00:30:28] hours, coinciding with increasing tensions with.
[00:30:31] تنش ها با.