CANALCATORCE — broadcast
20260807 023000 UTC
416 transcript segments
Google Cloud Speech-to-Text API (Chirp) + Gemini 2.5 Flash Non-Thinking
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Machine transcription. Treat it as a searchable index of what was broadcast, not a verbatim quotation record.

[00:00:00] in common is the opposite of immunis. So what the
[00:00:03] neo-Pentecostal evangelists are telling you is not communis but immunis,
[00:00:07] that is, think of yourself, save yourself, ask God
[00:00:10] to make you rich and you ignore others. So
[00:00:14] of course, we live in a world, as I said, where there is no society for everyone, where everyone is pitted
[00:00:18] against everyone, where you say vote for me, because I am the politician who authorizes you to be a
[00:00:21] scoundrel and a rogue. I have to disqualify those who
[00:00:25] propose collective solutions, being supportive of idiots, compassion
[00:00:29] is a thing. contrary to life itself,
[00:00:32] I come with the chainsaw, society doesn't exist, as Margaret
[00:00:35] Thatcher said, and that's why one of the central battles that we
[00:00:39] have to fight is for a new common sense, to tell
[00:00:43] these people what madness they are doing. Let's see, and we
[00:00:46] already have that common sense written down, and we
[00:00:49] need to promote it. We don't
[00:00:52] have it written down. It's just that they haven't been like this for 50 years.
[00:00:56] This started in 19 73, but we who
[00:01:00] think differently, who think about the common good, all of us because we have all become
[00:01:04] a bit neoliberal, all of us,
[00:01:07] because we have been doing this for 50 years. For example,
[00:01:10] if a child comes to their parents and says, "Dad, Mom, I want
[00:01:14] to study philosophy,"
[00:01:17] what a disappointment you give me,
[00:01:20] not redistribute income, the no, I mean, how much I love you for that good heart, but how are you going to study philosophy, how are you going to make a living,
[00:01:24] they ask, it's again money, money as
[00:01:29] before dying, before he went to the most important god.
[00:01:31] So we are internalizing that, we are internalizing a series
[00:01:35] of behaviors, because life is
[00:01:38] Latinos, no, well I think that one of commodified, no? So it's very hard for us to understand that we have
[00:01:41] to do things for which we are not paid, to recover those verses from Machado, every
[00:01:45] fool confuses value and price, and that requires
[00:01:48] time, and that's why I've always liked López Obrador so much with
[00:01:51] that intuition he had, he proposed
[00:01:54] many things, in his approach to fighting the
[00:01:58] neoliberal model, he was clear that he had to have ideological
[00:02:01] firmness, no, he who does not have clarity in ideology will not have
[00:02:04] clarity in organization, he understood clearly that he had to
[00:02:08] be consistent between what he said and what he did, he was clear that he had to
[00:02:11] communicate in a different way, he was clear that it was necessary to govern and that people
[00:02:15] noticed that you governed, he noticed that a movement party was needed and
[00:02:18] he noticed, he knew that Mexican humanism was needed, and
[00:02:22] Mexican humanism is changing common
[00:02:25] sense, where people think that this
[00:02:29] is a fight of everyone against everyone because there is no
[00:02:33] society for everyone, he said let's change the way of thinking
[00:02:36] and let's try to recover in the history of Mexico
[00:02:39] that community element that
[00:02:42] has allowed us to resist, that has
[00:02:45] mentality of cattle rustlers from allowed us to build the 4T, that allows us today to withstand a bit the
[00:02:47] onslaught of a madman like Donald Trump, the narrative
[00:02:50] triumph of López Obrador is great and the interesting thing is
[00:02:54] that he built his narrative while he was
[00:02:56] traveling through the country, he has recognized. narrative because
[00:03:00] he was traveling through the country, both things, but for example, several
[00:03:03] phrases uh, first the poor for the
[00:03:07] good of all is a phrase that has to do with Evo
[00:03:10] Morales, this, this phrase
[00:03:13] dividing political power from economic power is not what it seems, because
[00:03:17] Marx told us, that's why I told you that
[00:03:19] because if you we are interested in the forest of Marx and not so much the trees, Marx told us that the revolutionary
[00:03:22] subject is the working class, well today no, today the working class is a
[00:03:26] part of the revolutionary subject, but so are women, look.
[00:03:30] Indigenous people are also and separating political power from
[00:03:33] economic power, a merchant told
[00:03:36] him on the side of the road,
[00:03:40] I believe it has been a narrative triumph of
[00:03:42] you need help, call the life the left in Mexico, it makes sense according to polls to
[00:03:46] more than 70%,
[00:03:48] this, although in
[00:03:51] social state, in favor of daily life people live a
[00:04:05] companion of the Latin like Homer, now that Christopher
[00:04:09] Norland's Odyssey is in fashion, I thought
[00:04:12] that Odysseus, Odysseus, you know, is the Greek name
[00:04:15] and Ulysses is the Roman name they give to
[00:04:19] evident, no, just as one of Odysseus, Odysseus is the
[00:04:21] people, in this case the Mexican
[00:04:23] people,
[00:04:26] who return, there is Penelope
[00:04:30] weaving and
[00:04:47] a success that the right doesn't dare say his name in
[00:04:50] Mexico, that's how big it is. Now let's talk about Donald
[00:04:53] Trump, Donald Trump, it seems to me, what he wants
[00:04:57] is to dominate every country in Latin America that he
[00:05:01] considers his backyard, and be able to call on the phone
[00:05:04] and give orders like a CEO of a transnational
[00:05:08] company, that's the medium. Now the narrative disaster is
[00:05:11] impressive. For Mexico, he says what they have to
[00:05:15] do is intervene because there is a narcogovernment, for
[00:05:18] Cuba there is no effective government,
[00:05:22] for Venezuela
[00:05:24] eh it's Maduro, not Maduro who was the head of the
[00:05:28] Cartel de los Soles, which doesn't exist, in
[00:05:31] each country he has a different narrative, it's
[00:05:35] very, it's very difficult to understand
[00:05:39] Trump's narrative because it doesn't exist, the only narrative is the...
[00:05:42] said: I want to subjugate every Latin
[00:05:45] American country and make them part of the North
[00:05:48] American empire. Do you agree that that is the goal,
[00:05:51] as a Spanish group used to say, they give us bread and
[00:05:55] circuses, but less and less bread and the circus is worse, no, eh,
[00:05:59] it's very good though, the look, I was telling you that the United States has
[00:06:03] always done the same thing, but who were the friends, but
[00:06:06] not so blatantly so
[00:06:09] fast, also Juan Carlos, the speed of this.
[00:06:12] The difference is that they have always negotiated,
[00:06:15] damn it, they negotiated with Bin Laden, they negotiated with Saddam
[00:06:19] Hussein, eh, they negotiated with Suharto who
[00:06:23] killed more than a million people calling
[00:06:25] them communists, the United States has always negotiated, but it had a
[00:06:29] narrative of decency and of
[00:06:31] exporting democracy, of course, it had three narratives, above all, one
[00:06:35] was no war, because there is nuclear disarmament, there are
[00:06:38] multilateral bodies such as the International Monetary Fund, the
[00:06:41] UN, the World Trade Organization, and in third place
[00:06:45] we defend democracy. That narrative no longer works for them, so at the same
[00:06:48] time that they accuse Nicolás Maduro of being a drug trafficker, they release
[00:06:52] Juan Orlando Hernández, who arrived yesterday, yesterday
[00:06:55] a guy arrived in Panama who was sentenced to 45 years
[00:06:59] for trafficking 500 tons of cocaine, and they
[00:07:03] release him after payment, we have to understand that the American government is a
[00:07:15] the narrative is Marco Rubio with the gentlemen of the
[00:07:18] Pentagon who have narrative rooms, it's becoming
[00:07:21] increasingly stupid. You have this text about Cuba, world capital
[00:07:25] of the empire, you read it and you say, if a student of mine wrote this stupidity, I would
[00:07:28] fail him because it's made with artificial
[00:07:37] that you are not on that list of global villains, no,
[00:07:41] I have my... visa
[00:08:05] Iglesias, with someone named Monedero, if we
[00:08:09] surnames for the system, but they don't care,
[00:08:22] right, you are savages, that is, the
[00:08:25] Pentagon and Marco Rubio are
[00:08:29] conservatives in that sense, they try to create
[00:08:32] a narrative and Trump pays attention to them and then he gets desperate
[00:08:36] and says no, no, no, it's invading, it's
[00:08:39] doing business, yes, but Marco Rubio too. I mean, there
[00:08:43] is one thing that people have to understand is that all these far-right people who
[00:08:47] have replaced the right, Pope Leo XIV was recently in
[00:08:50] Spain and was almost
[00:08:54] crying out in the desert, please let Christian democracy return,
[00:08:57] because he was saying where is that Christian democracy
[00:09:01] that was in favor of the
[00:09:04] laws, in favor of a just system and that has been
[00:09:08] swept away all over the world by the far-right. Christian
[00:09:12] democracy has been swept away by the fascist Giorgia
[00:09:15] Meloni who comes from the party of Giorgio Almirante who was a minister of
[00:09:19] one of Mussolini's governments, the Spanish Francoist
[00:09:22] right, eh, do you think that's going to happen in Mexico,
[00:09:26] I mean, that Salinas Pliego is going to sweep away the
[00:09:29] PAN and PRI right? Here you have a
[00:09:33] fortune, it's that López Obrador
[00:09:36] has helped this people identify with absolute
[00:09:39] clarity who are the culprits of the catastrophes.
[00:09:42] So just as the right on almost all sides has blamed the
[00:09:46] left and that weighs, and the only thing that unites these rights is the
[00:09:50] hatred towards the left, here people identify those
[00:09:53] responsible for Fobaproa, for the massacres
[00:09:57] of Sinapa, for the inequalities
[00:10:00] of
[00:10:03] eh a
[00:10:22] time, is she playing chess? she's inherited that she's
[00:10:26] telling an endless story to Trump hoping that
[00:10:30] he'll disappear,
[00:10:32] of course, but that's the smart thing, I
[00:10:36] with all the leaders I've been able to talk to, my recommendation is
[00:10:39] that, that the left already has enough martyrs, dialectics is
[00:10:43] that, understanding when you can push, when you have to give in, when you have to
[00:10:46] share with that idiot the
[00:10:49] end of the World Cup of football, when you have to stand up to him,
[00:10:53] here I go, here I don't go, this is not
[00:11:25] people receive a welfare program because honesty and
[00:11:28] love for the people yield results. Government of
[00:12:15] warms my heart because they are convinced that
[00:12:18] Trump is going to hand over power to them, what they don't
[00:12:22] agree on is to whom
[00:12:25] they are going to hand it over, to Salinas Pliego,
[00:12:29] are they going to hand it over to the PAN, are they going to hand it over to the
[00:12:32] PRI, they don't know, they are very uncertain
[00:12:35] about that, they never talk about it, but they remind me
[00:12:39] of the girlfriends of machos,
[00:12:42] who are waiting for them, they just say
[00:12:46] whoever you choose, who will Trump choose,
[00:12:49] I hope it's not Trump who has to make that decision because he's already
[00:12:53] out, no, uh. of any responsibility, but yes,
[00:12:57] you are right that the Mexican right is
[00:13:01] well, it's so desperate that it has to call Isabel Díaz
[00:13:04] Ayuso to come and offer the Mexican right a
[00:13:07] mass to Hernán Cortés in the Zócalo, you say, you have lost the
[00:13:11] Oremus, you are so desperate that you understand nothing
[00:13:14] at all, I mean, it's crazy, no, no, it's on the verge of psychosis,
[00:13:17] this, I mean, a country conquered, a right on the verge of a nervous
[00:13:21] breakdown, is a modoborian right.
[00:13:25] Yes, but, I mean, there is a character we don't want in our
[00:13:28] history, it's Cortés, of course, he says Ayuso arrives, what
[00:13:32] did they give her, they gave her some cards, no,
[00:13:36] like three cards in which they
[00:13:39] informed her what Mexico was, what
[00:13:47] Court that annoyed Loret de Mola very much,
[00:13:51] I was saying that you didn't behave well at all because
[00:13:56] we agreed to bring Díaz Ayuso here for 10 days and
[00:13:59] you returned her to us on the seventh, no, it was a compensation for sending
[00:14:03] Peña Nieto, Calderón, Salinas to Madrid, it was
[00:14:07] a form of historical compensation, but it seems that
[00:14:11] you did not agree and when Díaz Ayuso said that you
[00:14:14] are savages, I thought well, they are somewhat savage because they haven't
[00:14:18] endured it for even 10 days,
[00:14:20] no, Ayuso said it afterwards when she went to Spain
[00:14:24] on the seventh day and blamed the government, you have left me alone,
[00:14:56] But, uh, in any case, they call Cayetana Alvarez de Toledo to come
[00:15:00] here and scold them, I come to defend the sovereignty of Mexico and you are
[00:15:03] not very right-wing,
[00:15:06] learn from uh from Bukele, build
[00:15:09] mega-prisons, it's an absolute absurdity, and it's
[00:15:13] also, as you said, a bit sad because you say, the Mexican
[00:15:16] right has to rely on a country that has just
[00:15:19] lost 136 votes to
[00:15:22] nine, a vote in the United Nations after Donald
[00:15:26] Trump had threatened that whoever voted against
[00:15:29] the United States would face tariffs and so on,
[00:15:32] no, it's hard, I mean, it's a moment, but what is it, a
[00:15:36] distraction, a lack of culture of our
[00:15:39] right-wingers, how do you explain it, really, it's a
[00:15:42] narrative disaster, it's like saying, uh, that they don't know the country,
[00:15:46] because it's true that in northern Mexico there is a very strong closeness with
[00:15:50] the United States, no, and that is real and we have to understand it, many people study
[00:15:54] there, they mix, but nobody wants
[00:15:57] Cortés,
[00:15:59] no, but, but, but they don't want a confrontation with the United States, with the United
[00:16:03] States the situation is more complex, so it's different here in
[00:16:07] the city. Mexico or in the south, that is, I believe that Claudia
[00:16:10] Sheinbaum has an intelligent attitude of trying to
[00:16:13] appease, being aware that you cannot fight against
[00:16:17] someone who is objectively stronger than you, I mean, half
[00:16:21] of the world's armament budget is managed by the United
[00:16:25] States, they export almost 20% to you,
[00:16:28] that is, they have to get along
[00:16:31] well, I mean, there is a geographical curse of
[00:16:35] Mexico and you have no choice but to try. uh, well
[00:16:38] manage it with awareness, I think it's very
[00:16:41] important for the 50 million Mexicans in the
[00:16:44] United States, something that one of the intelligent rogues
[00:16:48] from the United States noticed, who was, uh, Samuel
[00:16:51] Huntington, who was the teacher of Francis Fukuyama, the one about the end of
[00:16:55] history, and his last book, after having
[00:16:58] pointed out that the enemies were the leftists, the
[00:17:01] Soviets, the Arabs, uh,
[00:17:06] meet John Paul. world, eternity, he wrote a book called
[00:17:10] How We Are, where he said that the enemies of the United States were
[00:17:16] the important tasks of the
[00:17:18] American government, sorry, of the Mexican government is to understand that in
[00:17:22] North America, in the United States there are 50 million
[00:17:25] Mexicans with rights who must be cared for and I
[00:17:29] know, I have, I have a friend who is a
[00:17:33] consul and she writes terrible things about the ICE raids, it's
[00:17:36] terrible.
[00:17:40] And the Mexican-American community, who are already
[00:17:43] naturalized Americans, don't know what to do, that's what I
[00:17:47] told you, that in general
[00:17:49] the progressives in the United States
[00:17:53] are not succeeding in facing this regime change,
[00:17:57] little by little, that is, it's not immediate, no, no, that requires
[00:18:01] more time and I think we have to have
[00:18:09] of course, assuming this forces us, it's that we have to
[00:18:13] start almost from scratch to explain basic
[00:18:16] things, that is, we have to understand that we have to go back to
[00:18:20] explaining that there is society for everyone, that it is
[00:18:24] a lie that society does not exist, what
[00:18:27] does uh the historical liberalism of the
[00:18:30] 19th century
[00:18:33] mean, and we don't have an international narrative,
[00:18:37] the... and we should have it, for example, Trump's
[00:18:40] narrative is, if it's already
[00:18:44] transparent that the goal is to make a subordinate
[00:18:48] colony of each Latin American country, but for example, you don't
[00:18:51] hear the left say, yes, and what about China,
[00:18:55] we never talk about China, the Latin American left, how is
[00:18:59] it possible that we don't talk about China, except in Brazil, that they not only
[00:19:02] talk about China, but they have made big
[00:19:06] deals with China
[00:19:09] that keep them safe
[00:19:12] from Trump's invasion, yes,
[00:19:15] yes, the big story of the United States is that China has
[00:19:18] surpassed them, there is an Australian institute that
[00:19:21] measures 72 technological products,
[00:19:25] 4 years ago the majority were led by the United States and
[00:19:29] now the majority are led by China, no,
[00:19:32] of course we have to negotiate with China, but it's not our model either, let's not fool ourselves,
[00:19:36] no, but it's a... on the board that we don't talk about
[00:19:39] and that should be a traveling
[00:19:42] American left because geopolitics is not about ideology, when
[00:19:46] we think in geopolitical terms we have to think in terms of national interest and
[00:19:56] the things that Trump has tried to break brutally and that's why the Shield of the
[00:20:00] Americas that goes against UNASUR and against CELAC and that's
[00:20:03] why this brutal pressure and that's why the strategy.
[00:20:07] national where it says that whoever humbles himself, whoever kneels to me will have a
[00:20:11] space here in the third circle of courtly
[00:20:15] power and whoever misbehaves I will eliminate him as has happened in Honduras, as has
[00:20:18] happened in Colombia, as he wants to happen in Brazil and as he will operate
[00:20:30] rage that the continent has caught against Argentina, no, and
[00:20:34] Argentina is not to blame for having this.
[00:20:37] crazy person who doesn't take his medication, who is no, well, but Argentinians also
[00:20:40] hit us a lot with their, but they are not Argentinians,
[00:20:44] they are not Argentinians, they are four
[00:20:46] idiots who are, uh, spokesmen
[00:20:50] for the interests of
[00:20:53] the United States, no, so it is very important that you recover Latin
[00:20:57] American unity, Mexico will not solve the big problems alone,
[00:21:00] it needs to recover continental unity, that's why they hated
[00:21:04] Fidel Castro so much, that's why they continue to hate Cuba, Cuba that doesn't even have food
[00:21:08] or light, Cuba, world capital of terrorism,
[00:21:11] but stop messing around, stop lying, the terrorists of the world are
[00:21:15] you Americans who have always been cheating all over the
[00:21:19] continent. And fomenting coups and now they are making a medieval
[00:21:23] siege against Cuba to try to create a crappy narrative that absolutely
[00:21:26] no one believes because they remember that Fidel Castro
[00:21:30] said we can't do it alone, we have to unite the whole continent and a
[00:21:34] rhetoric that was regional because he had a lot
[00:21:36] of lucidity, well of course we have to recover that
[00:21:40] internationalist idea because they are winning, I mean, in the last
[00:21:43] 3 years it's been a debacle of the
[00:21:46] continental left.
[00:22:01] govern, they are proving what a mistake
[00:22:04] they make to govern, well, they govern for a
[00:22:07] minority and therefore they will
[00:22:10] most lucid moment of the capitalist system
[00:22:14] they paid with Roosevelt from
[00:22:17] about $250 of income, from then on. they paid
[00:22:20] 90% of every dollar they earned, 90 cents
[00:22:24] went to build schools, hospitals,
[00:22:27] roads, that is, in contrast to these guys, this communist
[00:22:31] called Roosevelt, no, of course, it's that Donald Trump has earned in what
[00:22:35] he has been in government 4,500 million and the New
[00:22:38] York Times says it, we don't say it for his personal pocket, the bad leftists,
[00:22:42] no, he has pocketed 4,500 million and
[00:22:45] Bukele has pocketed I don't know how many and Miley has pocketed I don't know how many,
[00:22:49] his sister, they are stealing.
[00:22:59] I want my share of the loot, it's that we have to understand that the United States is a great predatory
[00:23:01] company,
[00:23:05] if you pay them, that is, an Israeli lobby
[00:23:09] puts money and they get paid and
[00:23:12] they release a drug trafficker like the
[00:23:15] former president of Honduras, they release him, they don't care, they release him
[00:23:19] because they have paid. It's all a business and a guy here like, for example,
[00:23:22] Ebrard understands that well, he knows that with the gringos
[00:23:25] he says: how much do you want, how much do you have, how much do I give you, how much do I get,
[00:23:29] that's the only negotiation and suddenly because they have that
[00:23:35] Western movies they invade,
[00:23:38] uh, I mean they do it with Venezuela and they are stealing their oil, wanting to establish
[00:23:42] a protectorate there, the Venezuelan government is saying we have to
[00:23:45] hold on because if they dismantle us as happened for
[00:23:48] example in Libya, this country will never recover, they are doing it
[00:23:52] in every country in Latin America, of course, but for us it doesn't work, in Iran it doesn't
[00:23:55] work and suddenly they have a huge problem and
[00:23:59] suddenly they have to sit down and negotiate, this is why I think Mexico is doing
[00:24:03] well by standing up to them, by pushing, by yielding,
[00:24:06] apretando, cediendo,
[00:24:09] put yourself at their mercy and kneel, they
[00:24:13] will massacre you, they will invade you completely, they will devastate you, so do
[00:24:17] you think the president is buying time, she's playing
[00:24:20] chess, it's a tale that is
[00:24:23] telling an endless story to Trump, hoping that
[00:24:27] he will disappear, well, of course,
[00:24:30] but that's the intelligent thing, I,
[00:24:33] with all the leaders I've been able to talk to, my recommendation is
[00:24:36] that the left already has enough martyrs, I don't want more martyrs, there's
[00:24:40] a left that's crazy for martyrs,
[00:24:43] pray in a convent and don't mess around, no, I don't want more
[00:24:46] martyrs, no, a soldier who flees serves for another war. That's
[00:24:50] the right strategy, of course it's strategy, you have to be in a
[00:24:53] world where we have to be like light, sometimes you are a wave, sometimes you are a particle,
[00:24:57] everything is very flexible, dialectics is that, understanding when you can push,
[00:25:01] when you have to give in, when you have to share with that
[00:25:04] imbecile the end of the World
[00:25:08] Cup, when you have to confront him, here I go, here I don't, this is a
[00:25:11] business, that is, this is a man who for the
[00:25:15] rest of what remains of American justice, he stops the tariffs saying they are illegal
[00:25:18] that Congress has to approve them. And he looks for, you know, the United States
[00:25:22] that supports dictatorships in the Middle East, that has
[00:25:26] supported dictatorships in the world says no, there is forced labor
[00:25:29] and uses an indirect law to raise
[00:25:33] tariffs, no, it's the bankruptcy of the American narrative, we no longer
[00:25:36] believe, the only thing we only
[00:25:39] believe is that they are imperialists, which we already knew,
[00:25:43] but they didn't say it, now at least we have
[00:25:46] that certainty now,
[00:25:50] and these votes in the United Nations, 136 votes
[00:25:54] against nine, despite the threats that whoever voted against the United States
[00:25:58] would suffer the seven plagues of Egypt, no, so I think
[00:26:01] that... let's be conscious, I think it's very important, I told you, at least
[00:26:05] that's my position, there are things that need to be explained again from scratch,
[00:26:09] the new generations have a conceptual
[00:26:13] rupture, no, that's why I like that Marx is
[00:26:16] recovered, no, but we also have to recover Marx in what
[00:26:20] serves, not what doesn't, each generation
[00:26:23] Marx, each generation, and the interpretation of Marx in the 21st
[00:26:27] example, because in Marx's
[00:26:30] logic, the... realism thought that growth
[00:26:34] although it's true that there are elements of
[00:26:38] Marx that have allowed some authors
[00:26:42] real, just as you cannot recover Marx as
[00:26:45] died in 1883,
[00:26:48] he's a man with whom we must continue
[00:26:52] understand the elements
[00:26:55] del feminismo, hay que incorporar eh a Rosa
[00:26:58] Luxemburg, we have to reincorporate
[00:27:02] understand the imperialist elements, we have to
[00:27:05] include Dussel, Enrique Dussel to understand the
[00:27:09] decolonial elements, we have to continue growing, no, we don't have to read
[00:27:12] Marx as if he were an Instagram, Ludovico Silva used to say that if parrots
[00:27:16] and macaws and cockatoos were Marxists, they would be orthodox
[00:27:20] Marxists.
[00:30:38] Hello, good evening, welcome, welcome to Punto de Referencia, your
[00:30:42] newscast, I'm Azul Alzaga and Luisa Iglesias here,
[00:30:45] Azul, good evening, good evening, with so, so much to
[00:30:49] comment on, dear Azul, of course, remember @mxreferencia
[00:30:52] #puntodereferencia on social networks, we continue talking about young people and perhaps
[00:30:56] now from a serious, important angle.