CANALCATORCE — broadcast
20260914 113000 UTC
259 transcript segments
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[00:00:00] afternoon, a session, the deputy who does not
[00:00:03] deliver the correction of the ruling that he is responsible for, does not
[00:00:06] get paid and makes the constituent assembly work
[00:00:09] and they manage to come out with the constitution. The
[00:00:12] second one I will leave to Andrés for the second part of this
[00:00:15] program, which
[00:00:17] would
[00:00:20] be the famous
[00:00:23] treaty that Melchor Ocampo signed
[00:00:27] with McLean in the United States and
[00:00:31] which is the defensive mechanism, the only one he has left
[00:00:34] to defend the
[00:00:38] new intervention of the conservative government of Miramón in
[00:00:41] the middle of the Reform War with the alliance with the Spanish who
[00:00:45] from Cuba are sending support to the
[00:01:23] Well, I'm going to continue talking about Melchor
[00:01:27] this fratricidal confrontation Ocampo, filling some of the gaps
[00:01:31] that Paco left open. It should be said that
[00:01:35] chance of well, Melchor Ocampo,
[00:01:38] is the heart of the
[00:01:41] Reform, as many understand it, he
[00:01:45] was a lawyer,
[00:01:47] Juárez, the scientist,
[00:01:49] engine of the interested in
[00:01:52] good, everything all the things we are used to hearing about he could see, a
[00:01:55] Leonardian
[00:01:58] curiosity. It's impressive,
[00:02:02] but a very reserved man, so
[00:02:05] reserved that
[00:02:08] it was difficult, it was difficult
[00:02:11] to approach him, and that is one of the advantages
[00:02:14] of Orlando Ortiz's book, I bend but I don't break, which is
[00:02:18] a novel, and what
[00:02:22] Orlando does is to get into the
[00:02:25] character, which is very difficult,
[00:02:28] there are... that is to say, here we
[00:02:31] learn about many of the vicissitudes
[00:02:35] that this had, what Paco said, the
[00:02:38] the idea that well,
[00:02:41] indeed it is assumed that
[00:02:44] Doña Javiera, Francisca
[00:02:48] Javiera Tapi Valbuena who owned the
[00:02:51] Hacienda de Pateo, picked him up in an orphanage in Mexico
[00:02:55] City, in reality what is said is that she went to give birth in
[00:02:59] the city. Mexico City to give birth and that two
[00:03:03] of her potential parents
[00:03:06] were priests, one Ignacio Alas who was
[00:03:09] an insurgent and who fought with
[00:03:13] delved deeply Morelos and Matamoros
[00:03:16] and Antonio María Huranga who
[00:03:19] was a priest of Marabatío and but
[00:03:22] finally this child had the
[00:03:25] possibility of educating himself like
[00:03:28] no one else and a... a child who had an
[00:03:32] intelligence and a curiosity absolutely
[00:03:35] out of the ordinary, this that Paco said, he
[00:03:39] coming from a very Catholic tradition,
[00:03:42] there is an episode that
[00:03:46] revolts him, he was very dedicated
[00:03:49] to working the land because one of his
[00:03:52] passions was agriculture and he was
[00:03:56] the classification of flora and fauna was one of his.
[00:04:00] It's throughout his life, but he also worked the land and therefore
[00:04:04] had a lot of contact with
[00:04:07] agricultural workers, and on one
[00:04:10] occasion he passed by and realized that
[00:04:13] a priest refused to bury
[00:04:17] a peasant and he refused to bury him because he
[00:04:20] had no money to pay for
[00:04:24] the sacramental offices, so
[00:04:26] that truly revolted him and but... it also
[00:04:30] marked him, being very young, it marked him because he realized
[00:04:33] how far the influence
[00:04:36] of the clergy was distorting not only
[00:04:40] the political life of the country but also social life,
[00:04:44] relations between people. Indeed, in
[00:04:47] 1840
[00:04:50] Melchor Ocampo went to Europe,
[00:04:54] fortunately his mother
[00:04:57] had the benefits of the store and he
[00:05:00] took full advantage of it. In
[00:05:03] fact, one of his
[00:05:06] and then with passions in Europe
[00:05:09] was buying books and he bought an impressive
[00:05:12] number of books to the point that it was
[00:05:15] considered to have become the best
[00:05:19] library in Mexico at that time when
[00:05:22] he returned here. He
[00:05:26] almost immediately joined
[00:05:30] political life, he entered a law firm as a lawyer, but he continued with
[00:05:33] his scientific activities
[00:05:36] and as Paco well stated, he
[00:05:40] confronted the government of Santana. The government of Santana sent
[00:05:44] him to San Juan de Ulúa
[00:05:48] to San Juan de Ulúa. His
[00:05:52] daughter accompanied him, she insisted
[00:05:55] on accompanying him to prison, which San
[00:05:58] Juan was one of the worst prisons
[00:06:01] you can imagine in
[00:06:04] Mexico, next to the sea, if you have been to Veracruz, in
[00:06:07] very very
[00:06:09] precarious sanitary conditions and everything.
[00:06:13] And
[00:06:15] they offered him, Santana offered
[00:06:18] to expel him from the
[00:06:21] country and he refused, saying no, but his
[00:06:25] son, his daughter, goes with him to San Juan de Ulúa
[00:06:28] and he begins to see the suffering that a
[00:06:31] young woman could have in a
[00:06:34] prison like San Juan de Ulúa, so he accepts
[00:06:37] to leave, they expel him first to
[00:06:40] Cuba. And then the
[00:06:44] very fortunate
[00:06:47] arriving in New Orleans and in New Orleans
[00:06:51] he meets Benito Juárez and there the story takes a
[00:06:54] total turn because he becomes the
[00:06:57] ideologue of
[00:07:02] Reform and in
[00:07:05] this very advanced idea,
[00:07:07] even for European states,
[00:07:11] of separating church and state, which
[00:07:14] centuries later they achieved
[00:07:17] in many other places, in fact it was very important
[00:07:21] because, for example, all
[00:07:25] birth certificates, death
[00:07:28] certificates, everything went through the church, there was no
[00:07:31] civil registry, that is one of the merits that
[00:07:34] Melchor Ocampo has, that is why that
[00:07:38] very unfortunate
[00:07:40] epistle
[00:07:43] was called the Epistle of Melchor Ocampo, but not only
[00:07:46] that, he, while
[00:07:50] with Juárez, was in charge of the Ministry
[00:07:53] of War, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and
[00:07:57] Finance, he
[00:07:59] ideologically, structurally,
[00:08:03] legally organized the Constitution of
[00:08:06] 1857, which is fundamental, from
[00:08:10] then on the country
[00:08:13] changed and the state separated from the church
[00:08:16] and the new Mexican state was formed and
[00:08:20] these two books are, I bend but I don't
[00:08:23] break by Orlando Ortiz that presents
[00:08:27] all these vicissitudes and of
[00:08:30] course Don Melchor Ocampo Reformer of Mexico by
[00:08:34] Don José Cebaladéz, one of the most
[00:08:37] important historians in Mexico,
[00:08:40] recognized by many
[00:08:42] historians, except, well, Craw says that no, that he is not
[00:08:45] academic, but Friedrich Katz, Paco
[00:08:49] Taibo, Javier García Diego recognize the
[00:08:52] importance of Balades as a historian, and
[00:08:55] these are the two books that you
[00:08:59] can get at the Fondo de Cultura Económica to
[00:09:02] approach this fundamental character,
[00:09:06] engine of the reform in this
[00:21:58] Well, we are back here on the program to talk to you about
[00:22:02] another triad of books, the last years of General Cárdenas
[00:22:06] by Fernando Benítez,
[00:22:08] it is the last part, the last chapters of
[00:22:12] a monumental work by Benítez that was published in the
[00:22:16] black series of the Fondo de Cultura
[00:22:18] Económica, that is, the history series, the
[00:22:22] formal history series,
[00:22:25] and in this edition of the
[00:22:29] popular collection,
[00:22:31] these last chapters were rescued
[00:22:35] because normally
[00:22:39] the
[00:22:42] that Lázaro
[00:22:45] Cárdenas developed in his and what he defended in his political career
[00:22:48] and his military career, of course, his
[00:22:52] involvement in the Mexican Revolution when he was so young, then
[00:22:56] already as president, all the
[00:22:59] things he did for the good of the country,
[00:23:02] the oil expropriation is what all
[00:23:06] Mexicans know, no, in school it's what is most
[00:23:09] taught about Lázaro Cárdenas, but
[00:23:12] his last years are not well known, there is also an
[00:23:16] episode when he stopped being president.
[00:23:20] And very, very soon after, very quickly,
[00:23:24] World War II happened and
[00:23:27] he defended sovereignty, then he immediately moved to Mexico
[00:23:31] when Ávila Camacho was
[00:23:34] president and the Americans
[00:23:37] were trying to set up a
[00:23:40] military base in Baja
[00:23:43] California and
[00:23:46] well, he of course opposed it and said no, I don't want
[00:23:50] to stay still, he was a person with a
[00:23:53] great moral integrity and very restless, no, he was used
[00:23:57] to, well, he never stopped his career, no, in fact he
[00:24:01] spent his time doing things for Mexico, doing things for the
[00:24:05] people, and that was no exception because it seemed
[00:24:07] tremendously terrible for
[00:24:11] the United States to invade Mexico, because the least of it was
[00:24:15] letting them in to defend the continent, because the argument
[00:24:18] was that, as we were allies as
[00:24:22] countries, well, we had to cooperate, no, for the defense of the continent
[00:24:26] and the intention of the United States was to put many military bases
[00:24:30] along the Pacific and
[00:24:32] he said no, this is not a good idea because the
[00:24:36] problem is not that they enter, but who will get them out, no, how will
[00:24:39] they leave, so he stood firm,
[00:24:43] he went to Mexico and said no,
[00:24:46] he requested an audience with the president and offered his services.
[00:24:50] The president agreed, there were many others who did not
[00:24:54] agree in the presidential
[00:24:57] staff and well, finally he
[00:25:01] did a great diplomatic and moral work, he had a very important
[00:25:04] moral weight after having been president and
[00:25:08] he counterattacked in a very diplomatic, very
[00:25:11] peaceful and very intelligent way.
[00:25:14] And even that episode is not well
[00:25:17] known, he was appointed
[00:25:20] in charge of the defense of the
[00:25:23] country, but
[00:25:26] after that came the last
[00:25:29] years truly because even after
[00:25:32] all that episode of World War II
[00:25:36] when he was in charge of national defense,
[00:25:39] other political circumstances came in which he
[00:25:43] participated as a defender of popular rights, he was very
[00:25:46] linked to the defense of popular
[00:25:49] struggles, no, for example with the railroad
[00:25:53] strike at the time
[00:25:56] the episode of '68,
[00:25:59] the defense of the students, the
[00:26:02] declaration of his right and
[00:26:06] well, the protection he gave to Heberto Castillo
[00:26:10] as one of the main leaders being a professor at that
[00:26:14] time in '68, and and and he
[00:26:17] protected it, that is, he participated in a lot
[00:26:20] of of of, above all, when when there was the
[00:26:24] invasion of the Bay of Pigs in Cuba, he came to another
[00:26:28] intervention in favor of the sovereignty of a of a
[00:26:31] brother country, no? And he
[00:26:35] said, "Let's go all in, let's defend it." He
[00:26:39] almost got on a plane because he knew perfectly well that even if he was very
[00:26:42] old and that he probably wouldn't reach the island of Cuba, the
[00:26:46] fact of saying it, of of of speaking it aloud was
[00:26:50] something very significant because of his moral weight, no, in the
[00:26:53] country, because of the respect that all the people, all
[00:26:57] the officials of Mexico, all the people who
[00:27:00] respected him, had for him.
[00:27:02] They would receive this attitude as something, a gallantry and of
[00:27:06] an impressive integrity, no? And well, to this day, this
[00:27:10] maxim of the country of non-
[00:27:13] intervention, no? That is, not intervening in others', in the
[00:27:17] sovereignty of other peoples, no? So this book
[00:27:21] is worth reading, take a look because it's a part
[00:27:24] that we don't know much about, and it also includes an
[00:27:28] appendix, a posthumous text, no? Well, he
[00:27:31] wrote it shortly before he died, shortly before one of
[00:27:35] the anniversaries of the revolution in the year '70, and it is addressed to
[00:27:39] all the revolutionaries who were
[00:27:42] in their time and those who are still alive in the
[00:27:46] country for the defense of Mexico, so in honor of these national
[00:27:49] holidays, it's a great book to