CANALCATORCE — broadcast
20260920 133000 UTC
503 transcript segments
Google Cloud Speech-to-Text API (Chirp) + Gemini 2.5 Flash Non-Thinking
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[00:00:00] further, objectively, uh, then we will have to continue insisting
[00:00:03] and we will have to generate the political conditions for that, no, to
[00:00:06] to be able to understand how from the state and how
[00:00:10] at a general level we can think of a policy design that
[00:00:14] fundamentally impacts on risk factors and that combines,
[00:00:18] without ceasing to think about the immediate demand, President Nayib
[00:00:22] Bukele maintains a war against violent gangs, the state of
[00:00:25] exception that allows arrests without a court order was established on
[00:00:28] March 27, 2022. I understand the
[00:00:32] shock policy in public security that
[00:00:35] Bukele is carrying out, I don't know
[00:00:39] and that's why I lack to make a
[00:00:42] 360 evaluation on the issue of human rights, the issue of the prison
[00:00:46] situation, I don't know entirely. If
[00:00:49] the question is, is it a model for Uruguay? No, it's not a model for
[00:00:52] Uruguay.
[00:00:56] In Uruguay, as in several other Latin American countries,
[00:01:00] this idea of the Bukele model is
[00:01:03] used as a reference to
[00:01:07] talk about security in our own
[00:01:09] fill out a resume or whatever, countries. First of all, I want to ask you that, can we talk about
[00:01:12] a model? I believe that no, we cannot talk about a
[00:01:16] model in which the government's security strategy
[00:01:19] for the first 3 years was to make a pact with criminal
[00:01:22] organizations, which were the gangs. The pact ends
[00:01:26] with a massacre of 87 citizens in a period of 3
[00:01:30] days. From that, another model begins
[00:01:34] called the state of exception, which consists of the
[00:01:38] suspension of constitutional
[00:01:39] something about the rights for citizens, and
[00:01:42] which has resulted in El Salvador being the country with the highest incarceration
[00:01:45] rate in the world. There have
[00:01:49] been more than 80,000 arrests since March 2022. There were more than
[00:01:53] 40,000 people in prison at that time, that is, it is said
[00:01:57] that at least 2% of the adult Salvadoran population is incarcerated.
[00:02:00] In addition, in a system
[00:02:04] because it has even been taken to in which citizens know what the government allows us to
[00:02:07] know, in which the public information access law is
[00:02:10] rendered useless, in which the Directorate of Penitentiary Centers has not uploaded
[00:02:13] statistics since December 2020, and in which the statistics that had been
[00:02:17] uploaded are now inaccessible.
[00:02:19] And in which citizens, at any time they are
[00:02:23] arrested, do not have the right to a lawyer. What has happened in El
[00:02:26] Salvador, people want to
[00:02:29] type of contact within the know if it can be replicated. And the other thing is if people would be
[00:02:32] willing, in a society that has different characteristics from that of El
[00:02:35] Salvador, Salvadoran society is a society that has an average
[00:02:39] schooling of sixth
[00:02:41] grade. It is a society in which 40% of people are poor
[00:02:45] and in which
[00:02:47] the half-naked gang members there is all this notion of people's rights. When we
[00:02:50] talk about the rule of law, guarantees, separation of powers, people did not
[00:02:54] understand that. People understood that there was a criminal outside their house who was
[00:02:58] about to
[00:03:00] do something to their children or themselves, who rented or
[00:03:03] extorted them. So the
[00:03:07] projects and to sacrifice of those theoretical rights for tangible
[00:03:09] security has been a decision of the majority of Salvadorans and is
[00:03:13] part of the reason why Bukele was voted
[00:03:16] unconstitutionally for a new term. It is the basis
[00:03:21] yes, in the way I get to the neighborhood at of now, in other societies that have other
[00:03:24] characteristics,
[00:03:26] the question that arises is whether people are willing to give up
[00:03:30] their rights for security.
[00:03:32] to enable them to return to And another question that academics and people who study this ask is
[00:03:35] if it is necessary, is it the only
[00:03:38] way to have security? There must be other formulas and that this is neither
[00:03:42] a magic formula nor replicable as such. El Salvador is a
[00:03:45] country of 6 million inhabitants in 21 thousand km2.
[00:04:08] Federico Maritán is a community teacher in Piedras Blancas since
[00:04:12] 2010 and coordinator of the women's rugby group Las Águilas. This
[00:04:16] it ends up being something that will is a social and
[00:04:20] sports integration project that has been operating since 2018. About
[00:04:23] 40 girls between 12 and 19 years old who
[00:04:27] study in high school, UTU, and the University's Institute of Physical Education
[00:04:31] participate. They themselves baptized themselves Las Águilas,
[00:04:35] they are registered in the Rugby Union of Uruguay, and since they still
[00:04:38] do not have a field or headquarters, they train at the Piedras
[00:04:42] Blancas social
[00:04:43] club.
[00:04:47] Have you seen an evolution in terms
[00:04:50] of, above all, that, living with children and
[00:04:53] seeing them,
[00:04:57] When you put flesh on that, what you also correction, then the do you feel that they are more afraid than before, that life has changed a little
[00:05:00] in relation to the neighborhood and to security? Well,
[00:05:03] look, actually,
[00:05:06] yes,
[00:05:08] it's true that sometimes there are news that are not nice, I'm not going to say
[00:05:12] no, nor am I going to be naive nor am I going to
[00:05:15] say things that are not.
[00:05:18] Yes, sometimes people are a little afraid of
[00:05:22] some things that have happened, but
[00:05:24] well, from the school's point of view, for
[00:05:28] example, the school is a place that is highly cared for by the
[00:05:32] neighborhood, so it is a safe place.
[00:05:35] The community, the school, respects it
[00:05:39] very much. So
[00:05:42] many times it can be thought that Piedras Blancas is a dangerous
[00:05:46] place, but I would say that it is not that
[00:05:49] dangerous, that things can happen, I'm not going to tell you no. The
[00:05:52] truth is that I believe that many good things happen, educational
[00:05:56] centers, the movement that there is in educational centers, I mean, nothing,
[00:05:59] as for teachers, professors, I mean,
[00:06:02] committed and well, maybe that sometimes doesn't
[00:06:05] appear in the news. What
[00:06:08] appears is the other thing, and a lot of the other thing,
[00:06:10] right?
[00:06:27] That before the door of the CAIF, the door of the school, the door of the youth center was
[00:06:31] respected, nowadays there are
[00:06:34] shootings at the door of the CAIF at the time
[00:06:38] the children leave. Last
[00:06:41] week there was another one at the door of Santa Rita, which is one of
[00:06:44] the CAIFs next to where the polyclinic used to be, which they have now
[00:06:48] moved from the Salumisurraco
[00:06:50] center, there was a shooting, so
[00:06:54] the educators don't know how to handle this because you call the
[00:06:58] families and tell them to come pick up the children, but you come to pick up the children in the
[00:07:01] middle of the shooting, of course, walking down that same
[00:07:05] street and the children are thrown under the tables because there are shootings and you don't
[00:07:08] know if a bullet will enter inside
[00:07:12] and hurt a child. Well, in moments when the
[00:07:15] armed clashes in the neighborhood were very
[00:07:17] complicated, yes, I mean,
[00:07:20] because it was like
[00:07:23] "I have to leave here" because
[00:07:26] I have my daughter, I mean, how I worked, I mean, how it
[00:07:30] was, and then it's a little like that, no, at the moment you say
[00:07:34] it's okay, I mean, because
[00:07:36] the natural thing is to be able to get out of that danger too, no, when
[00:07:40] you realize that you are in a situation and real also
[00:07:44] intuitive is like, well, I can't because how long do I have to stay
[00:07:47] here like something clinging
[00:07:51] but well then well in my
[00:07:54] case I chose to go out to work, I went to
[00:07:57] work, I mean freedom, I mean
[00:08:01] I moved to the department, I mean I left a little and
[00:08:05] I was able to, I mean, now in time I was able to see how to take a
[00:08:08] distance, no, from those situations and
[00:08:11] to be able to see that seeing you will not change
[00:08:15] too much, no, because it's everywhere, the issue is
[00:08:18] when you have to leave your neighborhood because you can't inhabit it, that's
[00:08:22] like the, because they don't let you, that's the
[00:08:25] annoying thing. Uruguay is an aging country that expels
[00:08:29] its young people, who also subject its poor young people
[00:08:32] to very high levels of violence and
[00:08:35] particularly makes the economic conditions of the
[00:08:39] game and the current conditions, for example,
[00:08:43] of drug trafficking, which has been one of the dynamics that hits
[00:08:46] harder where there is a lack of money, because it is a slave
[00:08:49] market, violent, that does not respect rights and that feeds
[00:08:53] precisely on poverty, obviously determines that for poor
[00:08:56] young people it is fundamental because there is also not an equal
[00:09:00] distribution of young people in the territory, young people are concentrated in that
[00:09:04] area, it makes them fundamental, the system
[00:09:08] of protection of educational trajectories because education is the
[00:09:11] basis of the formation of a project that will provide
[00:09:14] conditions not to reproduce that key in which
[00:09:18] they have been left, obviously formal employment
[00:09:21] market, because money, drug trafficking and
[00:09:24] work offer, we are, what is precisely
[00:09:28] needed in these violent territories is formal
[00:09:31] employment and lasting life
[00:09:35] projects and the reconstitution of a
[00:09:38] community network. The case of gender violence is another
[00:09:41] case. If we only,
[00:09:45] that is, we do not continue promoting a change
[00:09:48] of pattern in gender relations,
[00:09:51] we will first fuel the problem of adolescent violence due to the issue of violent
[00:09:55] masculinities that culturally is one of
[00:09:58] the factors that allows involvement in
[00:10:02] violence and that in homes the idea of a
[00:10:06] violent masculinity or
[00:10:10] of the head of the household or the landlord was strongly associated. In the debate about
[00:10:13] raids, the idea of the head of the household who opens
[00:10:17] their door continues to be put in the center. This is
[00:10:21] very different from the reality of female-headed households.
[00:10:27] And the impossibility of thinking that there are children and adolescents in homes who often
[00:10:31] today are the ones who care and are almost heads of household in the
[00:10:34] absence of responsible adults.
[00:10:47] The girls empowered themselves,
[00:10:51] the neighborhood does not have much to offer.
[00:10:55] women's and they found an
[00:10:57] identification, they found the possibility
[00:11:01] of practicing sports and also rugby,
[00:11:03] which is a sport that
[00:11:07] really gives a place to all people. I never
[00:11:10] played rugby, I'm simply a rugby fan, it gave me the possibility to
[00:11:14] train, to be a coach and well, the
[00:11:18] girls find a place of belonging and an identity
[00:11:21] that for me is the most important
[00:11:25] thing for us, it's not if we win more or fewer games,
[00:11:29] but the issue of identity and that
[00:11:32] they feel part, because at a time when
[00:11:34] sometimes the identities of the neighborhoods are
[00:11:38] traversed by negative connotations
[00:11:41] or we are in times of globalization where there are no
[00:11:44] local identities and the global does not overcome
[00:11:47] them in their neighborhood they found
[00:11:51] something that identifies them, their colors, their name,
[00:11:55] their routines, no, every
[00:11:58] day there is a game you have to meet at 7, 7:30 in
[00:12:01] Belloni and Tula, there they are, and then this emotional
[00:12:05] thing, I think it's a factor, but it's everywhere
[00:12:08] and it's like a very tough thing, it's loneliness, the loneliness of the boys, the loneliness of
[00:12:12] the girls, the loneliness of the families, I mean, and that's
[00:12:15] where we have to do like, well, what's up, no,
[00:12:19] because the more alone the person is,
[00:12:23] the more complicated they have the... I think the point is loneliness,
[00:12:27] I mean, I don't know, a girl disappears and the
[00:12:30] girl understands that no one has to go out to
[00:12:33] look for her, that no, that no, no,
[00:12:37] don't look for me, why are you looking for me, I mean, it's because
[00:12:41] it's bad, because someone who understands that, or
[00:12:44] that settling of scores is someone's son, someone's
[00:12:47] brother, and the same with people who are, I mean,
[00:12:50] nothing, that it's difficult to be able to do the
[00:12:54] search, that there is nothing clear, that is, it's
[00:12:57] with that, I think the point of what you
[00:13:01] were saying, the neuralgic point of all is to attend to the
[00:13:04] family, to give tools to the family,
[00:13:08] to promote workshops for families,
[00:13:11] to instruct them, to give them tools for
[00:13:12] adolescents,
[00:13:19] the state mostly cares for the
[00:13:22] poor, mostly reaches the most vulnerable, whom
[00:13:26] the current model mostly condemns
[00:13:29] to not have
[00:13:32] reproduce logics of illegal money acquisition, because
[00:13:35] the problem of money continues to be the fundamental problem that
[00:13:39] organizes the daily gaze of
[00:13:42] those who do not have, especially in a world where
[00:13:46] structures like school, like the square, are missing, or where these
[00:13:50] structures also contain violence and become
[00:13:53] insecure. Due to these dynamics,
[00:13:57] we must remember that this control
[00:14:01] is a very poor control, punitive control, and that it
[00:14:04] is directed, above all, at punishing the crimes of the
[00:14:07] poorest and to a lesser extent the crimes of the richest. That
[00:14:11] is what is called the selectivity of the
[00:14:14] criminal system and that
[00:14:18] precisely forms part of the things that we have to
[00:14:21] address and democratize.
[00:14:25] a multidimensional problem, because when we talk about having problems in the neighborhood,
[00:14:29] we talk about having problems of work, if our young people do not
[00:14:32] have work, do not have a good education, just think
[00:14:35] that our young people are imprisoned, many of them,
[00:14:39] and of those young people
[00:14:42] almost all of them are
[00:14:44] illiterate due to disuse or because they did not finish
[00:14:47] school, and what does an illiterate
[00:14:51] young person expect at 20 years old when they have no alternatives?
[00:15:09] If you turned 18 and haven't processed your INE, or your address no
[00:15:13] longer matches your voting credential, or you want to update your
[00:16:28] sometimes it doesn't worry you that they might make a mistake with a person, have
[00:16:32] you discussed that, do you talk about it as a
[00:16:34] group that? who is our
[00:16:38] confusion towards clear clear
[00:16:41] someone who might live on the street but suddenly doesn't commit crimes or
[00:16:45] do you discuss that among yourselves? Yes, because there have been
[00:16:48] specific cases and there is a person who, although they do not
[00:16:52] live on the street, is a car guard who also
[00:16:55] integrates the group, but
[00:16:59] unfortunately we cannot reach the point
[00:17:02] of allowing
[00:17:05] compassion, as I would say,
[00:17:08] without questioning that person can harm
[00:17:11] us.
[00:17:14] That distrust that we feel is fueled by all the
[00:17:17] daily events that
[00:17:18] happen.
[00:17:26] We can talk about security, yes, if my cell phone is stolen, but we can talk about traffic
[00:17:30] security, we can talk about all the
[00:17:33] digital security today, about everything that happens that
[00:17:37] hacks an account, accesses a lot of information, and
[00:17:41] that's not something that happens here in Belloni, I mean,
[00:17:45] that in reality the concept of security is very broad, we have to
[00:17:48] see in what
[00:17:51] how we delimit it, I mean, I can assure you that in the neighborhood
[00:17:55] I feel
[00:17:56] safe.
[00:18:00] Well, I live a few blocks from here, I don't live in
[00:18:02] Marconi, I live in Palacio Zaurí, but I have all my family in what is
[00:18:05] Marconi, I live in Flor. Maroñas, I was
[00:18:09] born there, my family has also been there for
[00:18:12] many years in Flor de Maroñas, I don't know if you, when you say
[00:18:16] where you live, generate things in
[00:18:19] others, right? What happens with that,
[00:18:22] personally, it generates
[00:18:26] a certain annoyance, from the fact that ambulances don't come in, for
[00:18:29] example, where
[00:18:32] a TV cable
[00:18:36] provider doesn't want to come in or fiber
[00:18:38] optics because they consider it
[00:18:42] a red zone and that brings a problem, that's
[00:18:45] like we feel forgotten also by
[00:18:49] society, that we are not part of society, I imagine
[00:18:53] the same must happen in your neighborhood, right?
[00:18:56] Yes, yes, the same happens quite a lot, Maroñas is very diverse,
[00:19:00] right? And also diverse in its days, in its moments
[00:19:04] and in the situations,
[00:19:09] it's not like denying it, but it happens and
[00:19:12] when it happens it generates things and one of the things it also generates is that
[00:19:16] it does not make visible all the other
[00:19:19] things that happen in the neighborhood that also promote a lot of things
[00:19:23] and this is not to stigmatize for moments
[00:19:26] that the neighborhood may be going through, an entire
[00:19:29] neighborhood.
[00:19:37] No.
[00:19:44] In August of this year, the newspaper El Observador published a survey
[00:19:48] conducted with academics from the Faculty of Social Sciences of the
[00:19:51] University of the Republic that reveals an increase in the feeling of
[00:19:55] insecurity in neighborhoods where lethal violence is more
[00:19:58] frequent. In Colón, where Esther lives,
[00:20:02] 30% of the residents said they feel safe
[00:20:05] in Piedras Blancas. Where the Eagles train,
[00:20:09] 29%. In Las Acacias, where Elba lives
[00:20:13] and works, only 15% feel safe. In
[00:20:16] Itusaingo, where we interviewed Winston and Tania,
[00:20:20] 24% feel safe, but in Flor
[00:20:24] de Maroñas, the neighborhood where Tania lives, only
[00:20:27] 9% have that
[00:20:29] feeling.
[00:20:35] see are lives. heavy that make some
[00:20:39] noise to those constructions, no, when we talk for example about settling
[00:20:43] scores or clashes between gangs, in one of the interviews for
[00:20:46] example Tania said I understand it. I
[00:20:50] see it, but I also know those kids since they were little and
[00:20:54] I see the fracture in a house, no, beyond the fact that there is
[00:20:57] a certain trajectory, there is also
[00:21:01] a whole thing that is generated from those episodes,
[00:21:05] no, and that leaves scars that then have to go
[00:21:08] back, no, there is also a difficulty to
[00:21:12] to make it visible to invest or
[00:21:16] work in those areas, no, yes,
[00:21:18] it's a little the magnitude of the problem,
[00:21:22] no, the depth of the problem of those
[00:21:25] damaged, wounded,
[00:21:27] victimized lives, those lives that oscillate
[00:21:30] precisely between legal life and illegal life, no, those
[00:21:34] borders that blur, when you focus on
[00:21:37] territory, you zoom in, the
[00:21:41] panorama is much more complicated, that's where the problems of public policy design
[00:21:44] come in, policy in general is designed more from
[00:21:48] a distance. And from the
[00:21:52] phenomenological ignorance of the problem,
[00:21:55] so it's not just a matter of resources, I understand it's a
[00:21:58] matter of resources, but I think it's more about design, about
[00:22:01] rationality. The feeling I have, and this is an
[00:22:05] interesting topic to study in depth, is that there has indeed been an
[00:22:09] increase in investment in security in all its components in recent
[00:22:12] times, without achieving absolutely anything,
[00:22:16] because we have not softened either the crime rates or the most
[00:22:20] serious crimes. The prison population has
[00:22:23] increased, the problems of recidivism also, so we have
[00:22:29] rationality of that spending that is always considered urgent and
[00:22:32] necessary, whose impact must be debated.
[00:22:35] Well, Bukele is a very
[00:22:38] effective publicist, certainly, that's what best characterizes
[00:22:42] him, that was his family business, his foray into
[00:22:45] politics comes from him managing the advertisements for the
[00:22:49] left-wing party, the FMLN, from that he
[00:22:52] becomes mayor of a rather small town called
[00:22:56] Newgerland, from there he propels himself to the mayoralty of San Salvador, which has been the
[00:22:59] most traditional platform for presidents, we have to
[00:23:03] see where we come from in this country, a country where territorial
[00:23:07] control was not held by the state, it was held by
[00:23:10] the gangs in which to enter certain
[00:23:14] territories you had to enter with permission or with some
[00:23:19] communities in which parents did not see their children
[00:23:22] who lived passages away and
[00:23:26] had to leave their columns to see their families, that is the
[00:23:30] El Salvador that people see, the
[00:23:33] videos of the secott,
[00:23:37] with shaved heads
[00:23:40] marching to the beat of the prison guards, what people
[00:23:44] don't see is that the secott is simply one of the prisons in
[00:23:48] El Salvador and that the majority arrested
[00:23:50] under the state of exception do not go to the secott, but go to other prisons like
[00:23:54] Izalco, like Mariona, where according to testimony from people who have been released from
[00:23:57] prison, whom we have interviewed in El Faro, which has also been
[00:24:00] documented by organizations like Human Rights Watch,
[00:24:04] they talk about systematic torture, they talk about deaths in
[00:24:08] prisons, they talk about conditions that do
[00:24:11] not facilitate reintegration, which is
[00:24:14] according to Salvadoran law the purpose of prisons, not
[00:24:18] to torture people, but
[00:24:22] reintegrate into society after serving their sentence, what happens in
[00:24:26] El Salvador looks more like revenge than justice,
[00:24:29] but since again this country has been so deprived of
[00:24:32] justice, this country was a country in which one out of
[00:24:36] every 10 homicides was judged and the conviction rate was very low
[00:24:40] compared to the enormous violence that existed in which people in the
[00:24:43] communities were under the yoke of gangs and criminal
[00:24:46] organizations that when they see the police act in these ways
[00:24:50] against other people it gives them a sense of vindication which is normal and
[00:24:54] which is I think understandable to a certain point, the problem is
[00:24:58] that when we applaud the violation of the rights
[00:25:01] of other people, that ends up being a spit in the air,
[00:25:06] affect us and that the people who applaud the state of exception, which is
[00:25:10] many, applaud it until it affects a close
[00:25:13] relative.
[00:25:17] I don't think it's a feasible
[00:25:20] solution to, let's say,
[00:25:23] balance between repression and prevention, so to speak,
[00:25:26] that is, to somehow reduce the state's repressive apparatus,
[00:25:29] I think it's simply not a viable option. Those who live
[00:25:33] in neighborhoods like these where violence is rampant, they know it, that
[00:25:37] is, I can't withdraw the state from that
[00:25:40] part, I have to grow the other, and that's why I spoke at the beginning about
[00:25:44] the development model, because it seems to me that there is no
[00:25:47] viable solution that does not involve a plan where Uruguay grows
[00:25:51] much more than it is growing now and that allows the state to expand in
[00:25:54] this part that is still in its infancy, that is to say,
[00:25:58] of course I have to change the matrix of the penitentiary system and that in the long term
[00:26:02] implies having many fewer prisoners, it's true, but if
[00:26:05] I take the people I have imprisoned out of the
[00:26:08] numbers, crime increases, it's like that, it's proven in many
[00:26:12] parts of Uruguay's recent history, even in this
[00:26:14] government, there are people that I can take out of the penitentiary system and
[00:26:18] no matter how much I give them an alternative measure, they will continue
[00:26:21] to reoffend, they will continue to commit crimes, so
[00:26:25] unfortunately this part, unfortunately, because as I said before, I would like to be able
[00:26:29] to invest in other areas, but unfortunately the problem we have is
[00:26:33] for many decades, perhaps centuries, a
[00:26:36] culture was created that today we simply cannot
[00:26:40] eradicate by changing policies, it's there, so I
[00:26:43] have to keep the repressive part strong, the investigative part, the
[00:26:47] deterrent part, the kind of violence that exists today did not
[00:26:50] exist before, the number of negative
[00:26:53] things that happen is not very
[00:26:56] increased and it's like she
[00:26:59] said, you have to live here
[00:27:02] to... tell it, don't stigmatize the
[00:27:05] neighborhood so much that when you
[00:27:08] need to
[00:27:12] you have to give another address from another part of the house to a relative
[00:27:16] because if you say I'm from Palacio Shauli, I'm from Flores de
[00:27:19] Maroña, I'm from Marconi or I'm from Piedras Blancas, they already don't
[00:27:23] look at you favorably, you understand? They feel that in the places
[00:27:27] where they live, where they move around,
[00:27:30] things have started to happen on the street during the day that didn't happen before,
[00:27:33] that didn't happen before, there's that, how much of
[00:27:36] construction is there or how much they actually see it, they
[00:27:39] feel it,
[00:27:42] yes, for example, personally, yes, claro that there are things that
[00:27:45] are new modalities, you understand,
[00:27:49] how people are killed on the street, of course I see it, I see
[00:27:52] that it happens, not that I see it myself, I see that it happens, I see
[00:27:56] that it's complicated, I see that
[00:27:59] it generates morbid curiosity in young people.
[00:28:02] certain violence generates morbid curiosity
[00:28:06] social networks to have kids with
[00:28:09] weapons promoting
[00:28:12] weapons and they
[00:28:14] want, this happens to me, this happens to me, we
[00:28:18] have a biblical school where we work with children from
[00:28:21] critical contexts, children from families, suddenly
[00:28:25] they grab a stick, they grab the other day I had a paint
[00:28:28] torch outside my house and it looked like a weapon, so
[00:28:33] one of the children grabbed that and said to me "wow, I have a tremendous nine" so
[00:28:36] that's what generates that morbid curiosity, it generates that
[00:28:39] it's not good, it's not good, all that is generated in the environment in
[00:28:43] which we are, to know what a nine is at that age, they know, they know
[00:28:46] because
[00:28:49] so what we always try to do is to raise awareness in
[00:28:52] others, to tell them, no, look, the path is not
[00:28:56] that way, the path is this way, leave that
[00:29:00] there, that's not going to help you, so always, I don't know, in
[00:29:03] your house, in your neighborhood, if that happens, yes
[00:29:06] it happens, as in all of them, I move
[00:29:10] through several spaces and you feel that you have had to design
[00:29:12] strategies to to
[00:29:15] protect yourself,
[00:29:17] that you have changed ways where yes, in everyday life,
[00:29:20] yes,
[00:29:23] night, no, I study, I get to the neighborhood at night, how we also, no, how
[00:29:27] we inform each other if there is someone, a colleague, we go together,
[00:29:30] so the power, like, no, and I
[00:29:33] also see it in the morning when I go to work, the family
[00:29:37] taking the kids to the bus stop, no, like in those
[00:29:40] things, and also in
[00:29:44] in the in the knowing
[00:29:48] that there are kids from our neighborhood who have
[00:29:51] died in clashes, so you know the story, no, I
[00:29:54] work more in the social part, I
[00:29:57] worked a lot of time, no, so nothing,
[00:30:01] families that remain there, quite broken,
[00:30:04] and and and and well, and that the girls who
[00:30:08] would be in that, you went through all their lives, how
[00:30:12] no it impacts in macro terms, there is a
[00:30:15] correspondence between on the one hand the places of
[00:30:19] concentration of crime and the more negative and more critical perceptions
[00:30:23] in terms of affectation, one could think that there is a
[00:30:26] correlation there, now when one analyzes from another place, not only
[00:30:30] from a public opinion poll, but works
[00:30:34] in the territories listening, no, we have had to
[00:30:37] work several years in ethnographies
[00:30:40] in Marcón and Casa Valle, eh, the
[00:30:43] punitive demands there are much more diminished, precisely because of what
[00:30:47] you said, there is a social conviction that I don't know if
[00:30:50] it's too articulated, that precisely punitive
[00:30:53] devices do not work,
[00:30:57] they break, they undo, they do not provide guarantees, they do not provide security,