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[00:00:00] In the program "Abiertamente" today, we speak with anthropologist Aida Hernández
[00:00:03] Castillo, author of "Exhumar la Esperanza, a feminist
[00:00:06] ethnography in the country of mass graves." Analysis and
[00:00:09] testimony, the concepts and the role of the
[00:00:13] land, love, hopes, and the strength of the searching
[00:00:16] mothers. When Rosalva began her research with the "rastreadoras" (trackers)
[00:00:20] mothers of El Fuerte, their response was clear: to
[00:00:23] accompany, you have to put your body on the line, walk the path
[00:00:26] together, the search in life, the forensic search. Before which
[00:00:30] the mothers say: "We don't look for bones, we look for treasures."
[00:00:34] Let's listen to Aida: What is sorography, how is
[00:00:38] a sorography of
[00:01:30] women. "Letter to my disappeared son in Mexico"
[00:01:35] responds to that writing on women's written by Mirna Medina Quiñones for
[00:01:38] her son Roberto Corrales Medina on May 10,
[00:01:41] 2020. "Today is Mother's Day in
[00:01:45] Mexico, Roberto, and I can only remember
[00:01:49] you, from July 14,
[00:01:52] 2014. That day changed my life
[00:01:57] But one is the book of when they disappeared you and I felt like dying. After that, I have lived
[00:02:01] half-heartedly. Many days I only lived to
[00:02:03] look for you. I made you a promise to find you, and along the
[00:02:07] way, I also found hundreds of women who
[00:02:11] share the same pain. They also
[00:02:14] seek treasure, just as I sought you, who are my
[00:02:17] treasure. We women unite to look for
[00:02:21] all of you, and our struggle was so widespread
[00:02:25] that one day a journalist, Javier Valdés,
[00:02:28] whom I later killed,
[00:02:31] approached me and asked, 'How do you
[00:02:35] do it? How do you look for Roberto?' I told him, 'I look
[00:02:39] along the riverbanks, through the tracks, the mountains, and where
[00:02:42] there are abandoned houses.' He said, 'Then
[00:02:46] you track.' 'Then you are
[00:02:48] trackers.' That's how we got
[00:02:52] our name, the 'Rastreadoras' (trackers).
[00:02:55] It was on July 14,
[00:02:58] clandestine graves; they are graves of 2017, three years after they disappeared you, that God gave
[00:03:02] me the joy of finding your remains. After
[00:03:05] confronting society, the government, and the
[00:03:07] criminals, because society
[00:03:11] re-victimizes you, the government is indifferent, and
[00:03:14] Segato and crime is
[00:03:15] to me that it's part of that sorography of unstoppable. It was three long years of
[00:03:18] uncertainty, of not knowing if you were cold, hungry, or in
[00:03:22] Fe, from Polanco, from pain. Three years of mourning, and finally we
[00:03:25] found you. I made you a promise that I could
[00:03:29] fulfill: 'I will look for you until I
[00:03:32] And well, the other side of find you,' and we found you, Roberto. My
[00:03:35] companions, the 'rastreadoras,' were with me that
[00:03:38] day. You were the 93rd body we
[00:03:42] found. We found 92
[00:03:44] bodies, 92 treasures that returned
[00:03:48] home before you. Sometimes it was
[00:03:51] desperate to look for you. I had mixed
[00:03:55] feelings, because in every grave I wanted to find you, and at the
[00:03:59] same time, not to find you. But when you weren't there, I felt
[00:04:03] a lot of despair. We have already
[00:04:05] found you, but we still have many treasures to
[00:04:09] find, treasures that are waiting for us,
[00:04:13] the crazy women with shovels, to dig up the
[00:04:16] earth and unearth the bones that are the most precious thing in
[00:04:20] this world for us.
[00:04:22] Roberto, with your disappearance, the 'rastreadoras' emerged,
[00:04:25] and now we are a pebble in the shoe of a country
[00:04:30] that didn't want to look at us. Despite
[00:04:33] all my sadness, I know this struggle is
[00:04:35] worth it. We fought for a law on the
[00:04:39] disappearance of people, a
[00:04:41] National Search Commission, and others in some states of the
[00:04:45] country. Finally, the government and society
[00:04:48] recognized that there are disappeared people and that
[00:04:52] they must coordinate to search for them, find them,
[00:04:57] Viridiana, you talk about identify them, and take them home. Your memory
[00:05:00] will remain intact, and my granddaughters, your
[00:05:03] daughters, will eventually obtain truth and justice
[00:05:07] for you. I know we are not
[00:05:10] alone. Besides God, we have
[00:05:13] each other, the 'rastreadoras' who search for
[00:05:16] treasures. Today, when you should be
[00:05:19] celebrating with us, we remember you even
[00:05:22] more. We know you are there, and we will
[00:05:25] find you because we miss all of
[00:05:28] you."
[00:05:33] Welcome, Aida Hernández Castillo, Doctor of Anthropology,
[00:05:37] professor, researcher at the Center for Research and Higher Studies in
[00:05:41] Social Anthropology. Academic and activist,
[00:05:44] focused on the rights of women and indigenous peoples in Latin
[00:05:47] America. She is part of the research group in social and
[00:05:51] forensic anthropology, dealing with clandestine graves and forced
[00:05:54] disappearances in Mexico. She is the founder of the editorial collective
[00:05:57] "Hermanas en La Sombra." Aida, it has
[00:06:00] been a pleasure the half-hour I had the privilege of being with you, and
[00:06:04] that you are here now. Thank you very much, María Teresa. Just
[00:06:08] to clarify, I am no longer part of the Research Group in Social and
[00:06:11] Forensic Anthropology; I am part of its academic advisory
[00:06:14] committee, and I admire the work that this beautiful group of young
[00:06:17] women formed. Aida, I read your book with
[00:06:21] great attention, also with great sorrow.
[00:06:25] What it conveys is very impressive, and even more
[00:06:30] those mothers and women live through, and what you experienced
[00:06:33] accompanying them. You begin by recounting
[00:06:36] that you wanted to work on forced disappearances, and you came into
[00:06:40] contact with a searching mother, with
[00:06:43] Mirna, the one who wrote the letter for her son
[00:06:45] Roberto. She told you, "If you want to, you have
[00:06:49] to accompany us. The path is made by walking; you have to take
[00:06:53] the shovel." How was that, and what did you feel at that
[00:06:56] moment? Look, we had already
[00:06:58] been very moved by disappearances, because unfortunately
[00:07:02] we had a colleague from CIESAS disappear.
[00:07:06] habíamos estado muy movidas por la desaparición porque lamentablemente
[00:07:10] tuvimos una colega de ciesas desap.
[00:07:15] And we were already connected to the research group in social and
[00:07:19] forensic anthropology. I used to do legal anthropology; I had
[00:07:23] done expert reports, anthropological
[00:07:25] expert reports, but I had never done forensic
[00:07:29] search in the field. And that was Mirna who told us, "Okay,
[00:07:32] come, but the debut is in the field."
[00:07:36] And the truth is that for me, I have a knee injury, and
[00:07:40] I have a prosthesis now, so I didn't have it
[00:07:43] then. This challenge of going to the field with
[00:07:47] them was something that I didn't think about much. It was: this is where
[00:07:50] we have to be, this is it. And
[00:07:53] really, well, it was an, that first
[00:07:56] experience in northern Sinaloa, in the Aome
[00:08:00] area, well, it was an experience, my debut, she says.
[00:08:04] Mirna still tells the story, that I didn't think about it much, but it
[00:08:08] allowed me to see the strength that the
[00:08:10] community has. When you are with them, you feel safe,
[00:08:14] I felt cared for, right? Since they knew I had an injury, they were always
[00:08:18] attentive to me. And well, it was the
[00:08:21] beginning of a journey. It's the first collective I started walking with
[00:08:24] 10 years ago. Now I've walked with many other collectives; they continue
[00:08:28] to be my teachers. And something I also narrate
[00:08:32] in the book is that my family is from northern
[00:08:35] Sinaloa. So it was, and I had never worked in that
[00:08:39] region. I have Mayo-Yoreme roots, and I have always
[00:08:43] worked in Mayan territory in Chiapas. So I had never approached the
[00:08:46] desert peoples. And it was the "rastreadoras" who led me
[00:08:50] back to my roots. So there was also a cultural
[00:08:54] empathy. My mother's sayings, her styles,
[00:08:57] I re-encountered them with them. So I immediately
[00:09:00] felt part of the pack, right? I
[00:09:03] felt part of the group, I felt welcome, and
[00:09:07] I realized that it wasn't a research project, that
[00:09:11] it was a life project. A life project, that's how you convey
[00:09:15] it in your book. And when you arrived, one doesn't
[00:09:19] imagine the number of things that the searching mothers
[00:09:22] and women have had to learn, and that you had to
[00:09:25] learn. That's right. The truth is that
[00:09:29] it's an ambivalence that runs through the
[00:09:32] book, and on the one hand, it's the admiration for
[00:09:36] all that they have managed to do in this country. As Mirna's letter
[00:09:39] says, from bringing about an entire legislative change, which was
[00:09:43] thanks to them. It wasn't a state concession, but rather
[00:09:46] the search law, the victims' law.
[00:09:49] But at the same time, it's terrible that they have
[00:09:53] to do that, right? Yes, because they have appropriated forensic
[00:09:56] knowledge. Mirna was there. How did
[00:09:59] that happen? You know, Mirna Medina, in this
[00:10:02] specific case, this has happened now, 10 years have passed since
[00:10:06] what I'm starting to tell you, but she was one of the first to go to
[00:10:10] Guatemala with the forensic research group of
[00:10:14] Guatemala, and they freely offered
[00:10:17] support to start training them. In other
[00:10:20] groups, it was the Argentine Forensic Anthropology team, and more
[00:10:24] recently, the Mexican Forensic Anthropology
[00:10:27] team and the GIASF. Most of these groups, something that is
[00:10:31] also very interesting, as I narrate in the book,
[00:10:35] 95% of the relatives who search are
[00:10:38] women. And most of the autonomous forensic
[00:10:41] teams are mainly made up of women.
[00:10:45] Unfortunately, many of them are committed academic women, very
[00:10:49] precarious, who are willing to risk everything, right?
[00:10:53] So they start training
[00:10:55] because they realize something they shout in their slogans is:
[00:10:59] "Why do we look for them? Because only we find
[00:11:01] them." In that letter we just heard,
[00:11:05] Mirna Medina tells us about 90 people who have
[00:11:09] been found and returned to their families. Currently, there are
[00:11:12] more than 600 that only the
[00:11:16] of which about 480 have been successfully
[00:11:19] identified and returned to their families.
[00:11:21] So there have been disappeared people throughout Latin
[00:11:25] America; there have been relatives taking to the streets and
[00:11:28] shouting for their relatives. The Mothers of the
[00:11:31] Plaza de Mayo in Argentina, the Mutual Support Group
[00:11:34] in Guatemala. Something that is unique to Mexican
[00:11:38] territory is the appropriation of forensic
[00:11:40] knowledge, and the way these women and
[00:11:44] some men have made forensic search a
[00:11:48] form of struggle. And I believe that this is
[00:11:51] an example, a learning that much.
[00:11:58] You, naming what forced disappearances have been in Latin
[00:12:01] America, use an expression that I would like you to
[00:12:04] tell us about, and give us a little history. You call it
[00:12:08] the disappearing device.
[00:12:11] Look, this concept, which I largely take from Pilar Calveiro, who
[00:12:15] is an Argentine colleague, refers to the fact that we are not just talking about a
[00:12:19] group of bad perpetrators who take people,
[00:12:22] but about a whole
[00:12:25] device that includes bureaucratic
[00:12:28] and forensic disappearances. It includes
[00:12:31] the entire network of prosecutors' offices that
[00:12:34] are complicit. It includes cultures that
[00:12:37] stigmatize through media outlets
[00:12:41] that also create certain people
[00:12:44] as disposable, right? Those bodies that are
[00:12:47] criminalized, which are generally poor and
[00:12:50] racialized. So it's a very complex framework that not
[00:12:54] only includes the perpetrators, but
[00:12:57] this context that enables impunity,
[00:13:01] that builds social imaginaries of indifference,
[00:13:05] is part of the complicity that allows us to have
[00:13:08] currently in Mexico almost 136,000
[00:13:11] disappeared people, right? There are characteristics that make one
[00:13:14] think that no one will look for them.
[00:13:18] I, another element that runs through the
[00:13:21] book is the perspective of the
[00:13:24] territories, racialized geographies,
[00:13:27] because I say that they are a certain type of people,
[00:13:31] generally people, although it is very diverse and each region
[00:13:34] has its characteristics, but they are
[00:13:37] generally poor and racialized
[00:13:41] men and women. If we had 136,000
[00:13:44] disappeared people from Santa
[00:13:47] Ibero, this country would have trembled. Right? Who
[00:13:51] are those who mobilize and who do it?
[00:13:57] the coin is also that where there are prior organizational
[00:14:01] processes, as in the case of the 43 of Ayotzinapa where the
[00:14:04] Ayotzinapa normal school had its own organizational processes,
[00:14:08] there are many more possibilities to mobilize and take to the streets, even
[00:14:12] if we don't find them. But there are many
[00:14:15] regions, for example, a topic that is talked about
[00:14:18] little is that of indigenous disappeared people. Not
[00:14:22] just the activists we sometimes hear about, but young people
[00:14:25] who are kidnapped, who are often
[00:14:29] used as slave labor
[00:14:32] for illicit businesses, and who often
[00:14:36] also get involved through drugs, but keep consuming, and
[00:14:40] when they are no longer useful, they end up in a grave,
[00:14:42] right? And for them, we don't see marches,
[00:16:15] very interesting point you were making. You talk about poverty and
[00:16:18] racialization.
[00:16:21] Look, something that I develop in the book, but which has
[00:16:24] been part of my historical political activism, is the
[00:16:28] recognition of racism in Mexican
[00:16:31] society as
[00:16:35] inequality. So what I mean when I talk
[00:16:38] about racialized territories is that
[00:16:41] certain bodies are located in certain territories where the
[00:16:45] budget is distributed unequally. So it's not and
[00:16:49] where violence is also concentrated unequally,
[00:16:53] right? So you have regions in the mountains of Guerrero, for example, where
[00:16:57] there are no hospitals, where prosecutor's offices are very far away,
[00:17:00] where there are no rehabilitation centers for people with
[00:17:04] addictions. And in these same regions, you have a
[00:17:07] very strong concentration of violence. So they are
[00:17:10] certain people and they are certain lives that are
[00:17:13] constructed as disposable. So I believe
[00:17:16] that, besides others, these are multifactorial elements. There
[00:17:20] are many reasons why someone can disappear, but this
[00:17:24] structure of racism that marks inequality in Mexico
[00:17:27] is not always named, right? And I think it's very
[00:17:30] important, and with this I don't mean that people
[00:17:33] disappear because they are indigenous or that people disappear because
[00:17:37] they are Afro. Rather, this structure that is
[00:17:41] there creates contexts of vulnerability. There is less
[00:17:44] security, there is less possibility, for
[00:17:48] example, to get support in matters of
[00:17:51] addictions. If you are a victim of violence, there is less
[00:17:55] possibility of seeking support, because resources in
[00:17:58] Mexico are distributed very unequally. So
[00:18:02] I believe that we must name these
[00:18:05] terrible violences that are afflicting Mexico. While it is true
[00:18:09] that they can also kidnap an entrepreneur, and they do kidnap them, and they can also
[00:18:12] disappear them, those cases also happen, I'm not saying they
[00:18:15] don't. But this large
[00:18:18] number of people we now have in Mexico, and the people who are
[00:18:22] appearing in the graves that the "rastreadoras" find,
[00:18:26] in another of the cases I address in the book, are the graves of the
[00:18:29] Morelos Prosecutor's Office in Jojutla and
[00:18:32] Tetelcingo, which are not
[00:18:36] the prosecutor's office where more than 200 bodies
[00:18:39] have appeared, where it was reported that there were 30 investigation files,
[00:18:43] and many of these people from these graves
[00:18:46] are poor people whose lives
[00:18:50] were seen as of little value and were sent, still, if
[00:18:54] there is no investigation, we won't know how they got to those graves.
[00:18:57] Of course, but we do know that the state is responsible, and in this
[00:19:01] case, the state is clearly responsible because these are graves of the
[00:19:05] prosecutor's offices. The state says: "Here we have 30 investigation
[00:19:09] files, here are 30 bodies." The families of
[00:19:12] Morelos, it's a long story that I narrate here. They
[00:19:16] know that bodies are being hidden there. They take the case
[00:19:20] because they are also human rights activists, to the UN
[00:19:23] Commission on Forced Disappearances. They manage to get a recommendation to open the
[00:19:27] prosecutor's office graves, and, oh surprise, where the prosecutor's office had
[00:19:31] said there were 30 bodies, there are more than 200
[00:19:34] bodies, dressed, tied up,
[00:19:37] without investigation files. That is, it's a clandestine grave
[00:19:41] under state custody, right? And
[00:19:45] something I comment on in my public lectures, but also in the
[00:19:48] book, is that when it was discovered, first there were the graves of
[00:19:52] Tetelcingo. We all thought it was Graco
[00:19:55] Ramírez's government. We said, "The governor will fall."
[00:19:59] That is, in any democratic country,
[00:20:02] discovering that government graves are used to hide
[00:20:05] bodies implies
[00:20:08] something very serious at the investigation
[00:20:11] level. Well, right now, no, there are
[00:20:14] lower-level officials who have investigation files, but bodies keep
[00:20:18] appearing. The graves of Jojutla have not been fully
[00:20:21] exhumed. There have been six seasons of exhumation, and
[00:20:24] those exhumations, which were thanks to the pressure from the collectives of
[00:20:28] Morelos, the collectives of Morelos
[00:20:32] are sitting around the grave, sitting
[00:20:35] because they are mostly women, and several in the zero zone with their
[00:20:39] astronaut-like suits, the Tyvek suits, supervising that the
[00:20:43] state forensic experts do their job, because they know that
[00:20:46] if they don't supervise, those bodies can disappear again. And I'm
[00:20:50] talking about shifts of up to 6 weeks, from 6 in the
[00:20:54] morning to 6 in the evening, sitting
[00:20:57] smelling death around a grave to
[00:21:00] supervise that these people
[00:21:03] can return to their families. That's where I
[00:21:07] talk about this pedagogy of love, right? About how they
[00:21:10] teach us, these are anonymous dead because many of their
[00:21:13] children disappeared elsewhere. Yes, people whose son
[00:21:16] disappeared in Chacahua are right in front of the grave, because they know
[00:21:20] that these people are someone's sons and daughters, someone's brothers,
[00:21:24] sisters, who are waiting for them. And they want
[00:21:27] to take care of these anonymous dead so that they can return
[00:21:30] home. You take up a concept that seemed
[00:21:34] very beautiful to me and that comes from sorority, right?
[00:21:37] From this construction of support
[00:21:40] among women. You call it sorography,
[00:21:46] hope. The concept of
[00:21:50] sorography, I mean, above all, this is a play
[00:21:53] on words that, in dialogue with some of my students
[00:21:57] who have been working as colleagues,
[00:22:00] Lucy Bell and Joey Whitfield, who were my students
[00:22:03] in Cambridge, about ethnography,
[00:22:06] writing. But what happens when this writing, when this
[00:22:10] ethnography is done from sorority? That's when we talk about
[00:22:14] sorography. And I refer not only to my
[00:22:18] sorography, which I, as an anthropologist,
[00:22:20] do, but to their experiences. Like the letter we just
[00:22:24] heard, it's an example of sorography, because although it is
[00:22:27] Mirna Medina's testimony, it is testimony
[00:22:31] that arises from collective action. And in the
[00:22:34] book, I address two experiences of books
[00:22:37] written by them, not by the academic who writes about
[00:22:41] them, but written by them themselves, accompanied in
[00:22:44] activist research processes.
[00:22:47] the "Rastreadoras del Fuerte" called "Nadia, Detiene el
[00:22:50] Amor," stories of life from relatives of
[00:22:54] disappeared people in northern Sinaloa. And
[00:22:57] they are their stories and their children's. There is Mirna's
[00:23:01] story, and they write
[00:23:04] from workshops we did on memory, they read each
[00:23:07] other's stories. This builds, although they are personal
[00:23:10] stories, they are stories of a collective reflection that
[00:23:14] builds community. So the sorography of
[00:23:17] hope is the right to
[00:23:20] representation, to appropriate writing, but not to
[00:23:24] do it from the story of the
[00:23:27] individual heroine, but from
[00:23:31] collective construction. That's why it's sorography. Yes, I
[00:23:34] also saw it in many details that seem
[00:23:38] very small, but they are not. At one point you narrate that
[00:23:42] you accompanied the mothers to these
[00:23:46] endless sessions where images of bodies are shown on a screen,
[00:23:50] of clothing for them to recognize. You say that
[00:23:54] you met this mother, and you held her
[00:23:57] hand. Those, those types of
[00:24:00] gestures, your narration is full of those types of gestures. It seems
[00:24:05] hope. No, yes, it's the case of Angélica
[00:24:09] Rodríguez Monroy, she is looking for her daughter Viridiana.
[00:24:13] She has become one of the most important affections in
[00:24:17] my life. We are no longer just companions in the fight, we are
[00:24:20] sisters, and I had the privilege
[00:24:24] of going with her to Guadalajara on a search in life that also
[00:24:27] ended up in the forensic services, and yes, those
[00:24:31] details of holding hands are a way
[00:24:34] of reminding us that we are not alone. And
[00:24:38] sororography was about writing about this gesture, but also in the writing
[00:24:42] of Angélica. Angélica, along with other
[00:24:45] companions, wrote her own book called "Memory Healers."
[00:24:49] The two books, "Nobody Stops Love,"
[00:24:52] "Memory Healers," "Exhuming Hope," can be downloaded for free from
[00:24:56] the internet because it is part of the political project
[00:25:00] that knowledge should be shared, and "Memory Healers" is an example
[00:25:04] of sororography. They
[00:25:07] built this book from a
[00:25:10] workshop taught by women from the
[00:25:13] "Sisters in the Shadow" collective, which I am also
[00:25:16] a part of, who are women who experienced prison violence. And now
[00:25:20] they are free. They have appropriated writing,
[00:25:23] but they are also promoters of
[00:25:26] sororography by giving writing workshops
[00:25:29] because there is a lot of fear of writing, and in Mexico
[00:25:32] it is thought that writing and the right to publish, not
[00:25:36] just writing but also the right to publish, is for the
[00:25:39] elites, and the proposal of "Sisters in the Shadow" is that
[00:25:43] we can all write and publish, all of us
[00:25:47] who have something to tell, but it is also very important, because this
[00:25:50] writing, this sororal writing, this writing of love and search, is
[00:25:54] the essential antidote against
[00:25:57] another writing,
[00:25:58] writing on bodies.
[00:26:03] Writing on mutilated bodies, right? Which I think
[00:26:07] since the beginning of the femicides in Ciudad
[00:26:11] Juárez, it became very clear to us, there is
[00:26:14] writing on bodies, and it carries a
[00:26:17] message, and these
[00:26:20] humanizing projects
[00:26:22] are indispensable, they bring us closer to the idea that there are other
[00:26:26] ways of living and that we can
[00:27:18] Aida Hernández Castillo, professor and researcher at the Center for Research
[00:27:22] and Higher Studies in Anthropology.
[00:27:25] Aida, then we were talking, you were talking to me about pedagogy,
[00:27:28] you were
[00:27:32] thinking about how this book, like "Memory Healers,"
[00:27:38] bodies. Yes, in this writing on women's
[00:27:42] bodies, this Argentine anthropologist Rita Laura
[00:27:44] Segato spoke to us about a pedagogy of cruelty.
[00:27:48] What she tells us is that what you mention about writing on
[00:27:52] bodies teaches us something, and what do those writings on women's
[00:27:55] bodies teach us? They teach us who controls
[00:27:58] the territory, they teach us silence, they teach us to be
[00:28:02] afraid. And this pedagogy of cruelty,
[00:28:06] my argument is that it is being confronted with this
[00:28:09] pedagogy of love that is teaching us something else,
[00:28:13] it is teaching us to break the silence, to break the silence with
[00:28:17] writing, with "Memory Healers," with "Nobody Stops Love," with the
[00:28:20] letters, with the embroidery we talked about earlier, silence is broken.
[00:28:24] They are also teaching
[00:28:27] us how to reconstruct community
[00:28:30] networks, because they not only search, they also create
[00:28:33] awareness and build community. Here I show several examples of how
[00:28:37] this is done. They are teaching us that these bodies
[00:28:41] that were treated only as marks of the territory are
[00:28:45] people whom they rehumanize, sacralize
[00:28:49] the territory. The graves with their
[00:28:51] rituals are no longer just spaces of
[00:28:54] extermination, no, they are sacred spaces. And
[00:28:58] spirituality is another important element that I work on here. So
[00:29:02] they move in different ways, they do several things at once. A lot of emphasis has
[00:29:06] been placed, and it is not the only theme of the book, on forensic search,
[00:29:10] but they do many things besides forensic search, right? And
[00:29:13] I would like to go back to when you talk about Rita
[00:29:17] the pedagogy of cruelty, something else she says very clearly
[00:29:20] is, and that writing when it comes to women's bodies is
[00:29:24] to tell us our place and where we should move from, and in
[00:29:28] that sense, mothers and searching women have
[00:29:31] moved to the most unimaginable places.
[00:29:34] That's right, that's right. I wanted to ask you this that I'm
[00:29:38] not very clear about, because there is the forensic search that you
[00:29:42] talk about, but there is the search in life,
[00:29:45] what is the fine red line?
[00:29:48] Look, there are groups like "The Trackers
[00:29:52] of the Fort" that from the beginning they, because
[00:29:55] they knew there were too many clandestine graves, the
[00:29:59] origin myth of how forensic search began is that when the
[00:30:02] 43 were being searched for in the Guerrero
[00:30:05] area in Iguala, more than 100 clandestine graves were found,
[00:30:09] and they were not the 43. So
[00:30:12] many relatives said, if they are not them, who are they? Of course,
[00:30:16] they could be our children, and that's how they started looking for clandestine
[00:30:19] graves, but this does not imply that they abandon the search in life. What
[00:30:22] does "search in life" refer to? It does not refer only to the search flyers that
[00:30:26] we now see everywhere, and that even today I realized that Bancomer is also
[00:30:30] putting the flyers on its web pages. Those flyers
[00:30:33] are very important, but they go to addiction centers, they go
[00:30:37] to schools, they go to Ceresos
[00:30:40] to social rehabilitation centers, they
[00:30:43] visit hospitals, they go on searches with homeless
[00:30:47] people. That's what I wanted to ask you, it seemed
[00:30:51] very interesting to me, I would never have thought of it. You talk
[00:30:54] about it when you help, you are searching with your friend, sister, mother of
[00:30:59] the...