CBCNEWS — Live Rosemary Barton Live
20261011 140000 UTC
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[01:00:22] ♪♪ >> Rosemary: THIS SUNDAY ON "ROSEMARY BARTON LIVE" --
[01:00:23] >> THERE'S A GREAT DEAL OF COMMON.
[01:00:27] FIRST, WE'LL FOCUS ON THAT. >> Rosemary: CANADIAN CONCERNS. HOW WILL OTTAWA NAVIGATE A
[01:00:30] RELATIONSHIP WITH QUÉBEC'S NEW SEPARATIST GOVERNMENT. AND WITH A REFERENDUM IN
[01:00:34] ALBERTA, IS NATIONAL UNITY AT RISK? MINISTER OF INTERGOVERNMENTAL
[01:00:38] AFFAIRS DOMINIC LEBLANC IS HERE. >> THEY NEED TO COMPLY.
[01:00:41] IF NOT, WE'LL USE THE FULL FORCE OF THE LAW.
[01:00:44] >> Rosemary: STEEL RESOLVES. STELCO'S OWNER RESPONDS TO
[01:00:47] OTTAWA'S DEMAND, DISPUTING CLAIMS THEY'RE IN BREACH OF
[01:00:51] THEIR COMMITMENTS OVER PLANNED
[01:00:55] LAYOFFS. WHY EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW WITH CLEVELAND-CLIFFS C.E.O.
[01:00:58] >> IT'S UNDERMINING INVESTOR CERTAINTY. >> Rosemary: WITH ALBERTA'S VOTE
[01:01:02] JUST OVER ONE WEEK AWAY, CONCERNS OF FOREIGN
[01:01:04] INTERFERENCE, INCLUDING FROM THE RICHEST MAN IN THE WORLD. WHAT'S THE RESPONSE FROM PEOPLE
[01:01:08] INSIDE THE PROVINCE? FORMER ALBERTA PREMIER RACHEL NOTLEY JOINS ME.
[01:01:11] IT ALL STARTS NOW ON "ROSEMARY BARTON LIVE."
[01:01:14] ♪♪
[01:01:19] >> Rosemary: THANKS FOR JOINING US ON THIS THANKSGIVING SUNDAY. PRIME MINISTER MARK CARNEY IS
[01:01:22] HEADING TO ALBERTA THIS WEEK IN THE CRUCIAL FINAL DAYS AHEAD OF
[01:01:26] THE PROVINCE'S VOTE ON A REFERENDUM ON OCTOBER 19th.
[01:01:29] THAT VOTE COMES JUST TWO WEEKS AFTER THE SEPARATIST PARTI
[01:01:33] QUEBECOIS FORMED A MINORITY GOVERNMENT, PROMISING TO HOLD A
[01:01:37] REFERENDUM WHEN DONALD TRUMP LEAVES OFFICE IN 2029.
[01:01:40] AS CANADA FACES TWO POTENTIAL SOVEREIGNTY CHALLENGES, CARNEY
[01:01:44] SAYS THE FUTURE OF CANADA WILL
[01:01:45] BE DECIDED BY CANADIANS.
[01:01:49] >> Prime Minister Mark Carney: BUILDING A STRONG QUÉBEC WITHIN A STRONG CANADA AND A STRONG
[01:01:52] CANADA THAT MEANS MORE INDEPENDENT, MORE SOVEREIGN,
[01:01:55] MORE PROSPEROUS OBVIOUSLY.
[01:01:58] BUT ALSO -- SO WE CAN LIVE OUR
[01:02:01] LIVES AS WE CHOOSE IN QUÉBEC, IN CANADA. THAT.
[01:02:03] ARES OUR LANGUAGES, OUR CULTURE, OUR WAY OF LIFE.
[01:02:07] >> Rosemary: EARLIER I SPOKE TO THE MINISTER RESPONSIBLE FOR
[01:02:11] INTERGOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS DOMINIC LEBLANC ON HOW THE GOVERNMENT IS APPROACHING THE
[01:02:25] >> Rosemary: AND TO YOU. AND TO YOU. BECAUSE YOUR JOB TITLE IS VERY
[01:02:28] LONG, I HAVE LOTS OF QUESTIONS ON DIFFERENT TOPICS FOR YOU.
[01:02:31] I WANT TO START WITH QUÉBEC, IF
[01:02:33] I CAN.
[01:02:36] OBVIOUSLY THE P.Q. GOVERNMENT
[01:02:41] WON. THEY PROMISED TO HOLD A REFERENDUM ONCE TRUMP LEAVES OFFICE.
[01:02:45] THE PRIME MINISTER AND PLAMONDON SAID THEY'LL WORK TOGETHER.
[01:02:47] I WANT TO KNOW WHAT COOPERATIVE FEDERALISM LOOKS LIKE WHEN YOU
[01:02:51] HAVE A PREMIER WHO ALSO WANTS TO
[01:02:53] HOLD A REFERENDUM FOR SEPARATION
[01:02:55] AT SOME POINT.
[01:02:57] >> WELL, THE KEY THING IS WHAT
[01:02:59] YOU JUST SAID, ROSEMARY, AT SOME POINT.
[01:03:03] QUÉBECERS CHOSE A GOVERNMENT ON
[01:03:07] MONDAY EVENING. THEY EXPECT THE GOVERNMENT OF CANADA TO BE A PARTNER IN
[01:03:10] ADDRESSING THE PRIORITIES IN THE
[01:03:14] LIVES OF QUÉBECERS ON ISSUES
[01:03:16] THAT WERE ABSOLUTELY ALIGNED
[01:03:19] WITH MR. PLAMONDON. I KNOW IN THE PRIME MINISTER'S
[01:03:22] PHONE CALL WITH THE PREMIER-DESIGNATE THEY TALKED
[01:03:25] ABOUT THINGS LIKE HOMELESSNESS. A HUGE CHALLENGE.
[01:03:28] IT WAS A BIG ISSUE IN THE QUÉBEC ELECTION. >> Rosemary: YEP.
[01:03:32] >> WE'RE ABSOLUTELY ALIGNED IN WANTING TO WORK WITH HIM ON THAT. INFRASTRUCTURE.
[01:03:36] THE CANADA-U.S. TARIFF CONTEXT.
[01:03:41] THERE'S A GREAT DEAL OF COMMON INTERESTS. WE'LL START BY FOCUSING ON THAT.
[01:03:45] AND THE COMING MONTHS AND THE
[01:03:47] COMING YEARS WILL BRING OTHER TALES.
[01:03:49] WE'RE NOT STARTING FROM A HYPOTHETICAL CIRCUMSTANCE TWO,
[01:03:53] THREE YEARS FROM NOW. >> Rosemary: HE IS, HOWEVER, --
[01:03:57] MR. PLAMONDON TALKING ABOUT GETTING RID OF THE MONARCHY IN QUÉBEC.
[01:04:00] NOT JUST THE OATH TO THE KING, WHICH AS YOU KNOW HAS BEEN AN
[01:04:02] ISSUE IN THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY. BUT ALSO THE LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR
[01:04:06] OF QUÉBEC. DO YOU THINK THAT THAT'S
[01:04:10] POSSIBLE? >> I'M NOT A CONSTITUTIONAL SCHOLAR.
[01:04:12] WE'RE NOT WASTING A LOT OF TIME
[01:04:15] RETAINING OUTSIDE COUNSEL TO PROVIDE CONSTITUTIONAL ADVICE ON
[01:04:18] THESE KIND OF ISSUES, ROSEMARY.
[01:04:21] HE CAN -- HE CAN DISCUSS THOSE ISSUES.
[01:04:24] WE DON'T THINK THEY'RE HUGE PRIORITIES FOR QUÉBECERS. AND MY UNDERSTANDING IS IN THE
[01:04:28] CONVERSATION WITH THE PRIME MINISTER, THEY DIDN'T SPEND A LOT OF TIME ON THAT ISSUE.
[01:04:32] IN FACT, DIDN'T DISCUSS IT AT ALL.
[01:04:35] >> Rosemary: ALBERTA ALSO -- JUST OVER A WEEK IS FACING THIS
[01:04:39] REFERENDUM. THAT'S NEXT ON MONDAY -- NEXT MONDAY RATHER.
[01:04:42] AND THE PRIME MINISTER AND OTHERS HAVE SAID THAT YOU'RE
[01:04:45] TRACKING ALLEGATIONS OF FOREIGN INTERFERENCE. WHAT CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT THOSE
[01:04:48] CONCERNS AND WHETHER THEY ARE
[01:04:51] MORE INTENSE THAN YOU WOULD HAVE EXPECTED? LIKE THE INTEREST FROM FOREIGN
[01:04:55] ACTORS IS MORE INTENSE GIVEN THE
[01:04:59] SITUATION. >> YEAH. I DON'T -- I DON'T THINK IT'S
[01:05:03] MORE INTENSE THAN WE WOULD HAVE EXPECTED.
[01:05:07] WE HAVE FOR SOME TIME BEEN AWARE
[01:05:10] OF DIFFERENT FOREIGN ACTORS THAT
[01:05:14] SEEK TO INTERFERE IN DEMOCRATIC PROCESSES IN CANADA.
[01:05:17] IT'S NOT NEW. >> Rosemary: SURE. >> IT'S NEW IN TERMS OF THE LAST
[01:05:21] NUMBER OF YEARS.
[01:05:23] WE'RE WORKING IN ALBERTA WITH ELECTIONS ALBERTA.
[01:05:27] THE SECURITY AND INTELLIGENCE SERVICES, CSIS AMONG OTHERS.
[01:05:31] IN FACT, PARLIAMENT CHANGED THE LAW A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO WITH THE SUPPORT OF MOST OF THE
[01:05:34] PARTIES, IF NOT ALL OF THEM, I THINK THE HOUSE OF COMMONS, FOR
[01:05:38] GIVE CSIS THE ABILITY TO SHARE INFORMATION WITH PROVINCIAL
[01:05:42] PARTNERS. SO THAT'S AN ONGOING EFFORT.
[01:05:46] FEDEAT THE END OF THE DAY, ROSE,
[01:05:48] I'M VERY, VERY CONFIDENT THAT
[01:05:51] THESE DIAGNOSES, IF -- THESE
[01:05:54] DECISIONS ARE MADE BY CANADIANS WHO GO TO POLLING STATIONS AND
[01:05:57] CAST THEIR BALLOTS. >> Rosemary: EXCEPT PART OF THE PROBLEM HERE IS THAT SOME OF THE
[01:06:01] CALLS ARE COMING FROM INSIDE THE HOUSE, RIGHT.
[01:06:04] SOME OF THE CENTIMETRES HAVE
[01:06:06] REPORT -- SEPARATISTS HAVE MET
[01:06:08] WITH OFFICIALS IN THE U.S., PROMISING THEM THINGS, AGO ETS
[01:06:12] THAT ALBERTA HAS IF THEY WERE TO HELP THEM.
[01:06:14] HOW DO YOU HANDLE THINGS WHEN IT'S BEING SOLICITED BY
[01:06:18] CANADIANS, BUT TO COULD BE
[01:06:20] VIEWED AS STILL AS BEING
[01:06:23] INTERFERENCE?
[01:06:25] >> WE'LL LET THOSE PEOPLE
[01:06:28] EXPLAIN TO ALBERTANS WHY THEY THOUGHT IT WAS USEFUL TO TAKE
[01:06:32] SOME TRIP TO WASHINGTON AND MEET
[01:06:34] SOME PEOPLE IN A FOREIGN
[01:06:37] ADMINISTRATION TO HOLD OUT SOME KIND PERFORM COMMITMENTS THAT
[01:06:40] THEY MAY OR MAY NOT EVER BE ABLE TO DELIVER.
[01:06:43] LIKE A LOT OF PEOPLE BUY AIR TICKETS, ROSEMARY, AND TRAVEL
[01:06:46] AROUND TO PLACES AND HAVE
[01:06:48] MEETINGS WITH PEOPLE WHO PRETEND
[01:06:50] TO BE DECISION MAKERS AND OTHER CONTEXT.
[01:06:54] PEOPLE MOVE AROUND AND HAVE ALL KINDS OF MEETINGS.
[01:06:57] AND THEN TALK ABOUT, OH, I MET
[01:06:59] THIS VERY IMPORTANT OFFICIAL IN
[01:07:02] THIS FOREIGN GOVERNMENT, IN THIS BOARD ROOM IN SOME FOREIGN
[01:07:06] CAPITAL. THIS STUFF HAPPENS ALL THE TIME.
[01:07:09] WE HAVE MADE IT CLEAR TO THE UNITED STATES THAT WE EXPECT
[01:07:13] THEM TO RESPECT THE SOVEREIGNTY OF CANADA.
[01:07:16] WE HAVE A DEMOCRATIC PROCESS
[01:07:18] THAT'S RUN UNDER CANADIAN LAW. IN THIS CASE, THE LAW OF THE
[01:07:22] PROVINCE OF ALBERTA.
[01:07:25] AND WE HAVE MADE IT CLEAR AT THE VERY HIGHEST LEVELS OF THE
[01:07:29] UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT THAT WE HAVE AN EXPECTATION THAT THEY'LL
[01:07:33] RESPECT OUR SOVEREIGNTY AS WE WILL ANOTHER FOREIGN COUNTRY
[01:07:36] GOING THROUGH AN OPEN AND FREE ELECTION. >> Rosemary: THIS PAST WEEK THE
[01:07:40] U.S. TRADE REPRESENTATIVE JAMIESON GREER SAID THAT CANADA
[01:07:42] IS PREOCCUPIED WITH THE QUÉBEC ELECTION.
[01:07:45] WHY DO YOU THINK HE'S POINTING
[01:07:47] TO THAT AS THE FOCUS OF THE
[01:07:49] CANADIAN GOVERNMENT?
[01:07:53] >> I DON'T KNOW. I SPOKE TO JAMIESON GREER
[01:07:55] EARLIER THIS WEEK.
[01:07:57] WE HAD -- WE HAD A CONVERSATION
[01:07:59] THAT DIDN'T TOUCH ON THIS.
[01:08:04] JAMIESON AT VARIOUS TIMES ASKS ME ABOUT CANADIAN POLITICS. HE FOLLOWS.
[01:08:08] HE'S INTERESTED IN IT. I THINK IT'S INTERESTING THAT THE U.S. CABINET-LEVEL SECRETARY
[01:08:12] IS FOLLOWING CANADIAN DOMESTIC POLITICS.
[01:08:16] I DON'T KNOW WHY HE WOULD HAVE SAID THAT.
[01:08:18] MY CONVERSATIONS WITH HIM WERE
[01:08:20] NOT FOCUSING ON PROVINCIAL ELECTION RESULTS.
[01:08:23] WE'RE FOCUSING ON TARIFFS THAT
[01:08:26] WE THINK ARE UNJUSTIFIED AND
[01:08:28] THAT ARE HURTING THE CANADIAN
[01:08:30] ECONOMY AND CREATING CIRCUMSTANCES FOR CANADIAN
[01:08:34] WORKERS THAT AREN'T HELPFUL. THAT'S THE FOCUS OF MY
[01:08:37] CONVERSATIONS WITH HIM. >> Rosemary: SO WHEN -- WHEN ARE
[01:08:41] THOSE CONVERSATIONS -- LIKE IT'S ENCOURAGING THAT YOU'RE BOTH
[01:08:44] SPEAKING TO EACH OTHER. WHEN DO THOSE CONVERSATIONS TURN
[01:08:47] INTO SOMETHING MORE? BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY WE'RE SEEING
[01:08:50] SOME OF THE DAMAGING EFFECTS OF TARIFFS.
[01:08:53] STELCO IS A SLIGHTLY UNUSUAL INSTANCE, BUT THAT'S SORT OF THE
[01:08:56] MOST RECENT ONE.
[01:08:58] WHETHER DO YOUR -- WHEN DO YOUR
[01:09:01] CALLS BECOME SOMETHING ELSE MORE FORMAL?
[01:09:03] WOULD IT BE AFTER THE MIDTERMS?
[01:09:06] >> AND YOU'RE RIGHT, ROSEMARY,
[01:09:08] IN A SENSE THAT WE ARE SEEING
[01:09:11] SOME OF THE EFFECTS OF THESE AMERICAN TARIFFS ON CERTAIN
[01:09:15] SECTORS OF THE CANADIAN ECONOMY.
[01:09:17] THE EXAMPLE OF STELCO IS ONE. IT'S TRUE IN OTHER SECTORS.
[01:09:21] IT'S TRUE IN SOFTWOOD LUMBER.
[01:09:23] IT'S TRUE IN SOME PARTS OF THE
[01:09:25] ECONOMY THAT WERE HIT WITH THESE
[01:09:27] TARIFFS IN THE SUMMER, THE 338 TARIFFS.
[01:09:31] WHAT WE'VE SAID TO THE AMERICANS -- THE PRIME MINISTER HAS SAID IT PUBLICLY.
[01:09:35] WE SAY IT TO OUR COUNTERPARTS
[01:09:37] WHEN WE TALK TO THEM PRIVATELY.
[01:09:41] WE'RE PREPARED TO NEGOTIATE AN ARRANGEMENT THAT WE THINK IS IN
[01:09:45] THE ECONOMIC AND SOVEREIGN INTERESTS OF CANADA. THEY KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS.
[01:09:49] THEY KNOW WHERE WE WERE WHEN THE
[01:09:52] CONVERSATION OR THE NEGOTIATIONS -- THE FORMAL NEGOTIATIONS WERE
[01:09:56] INTERRUPTED AT THE END OF AUGUST.
[01:09:59] THE CONVERSATIONS AND AMBASSADOR
[01:10:02] GREER -- JAMIESON SAID THIS TO AMERICAN MEDIA. I THOUGHT IT WAS A GOOD WAY TO
[01:10:06] SAY IT. HE SAID IN HIS CONVERSATIONS
[01:10:08] WITH HIS COUNTERPART IN CANADA, IT'S ABOUT LOOKING FOR
[01:10:12] ALTERNATIVES TO THE CURRENT CIRCUMSTANCE.
[01:10:14] SO IT'S NOT A FORMAL NEGOTIATION.
[01:10:16] WE'RE NOT EXCHANGING LEGAL TEXTS
[01:10:19] OF AN AGREEMENT. >> Rosemary: YEP.
[01:10:21] >> BUT WE KNOW WHERE THE NEGOTIATIONS WERE INTERRUPTED AT
[01:10:24] THE END OF AUGUST. AND IF THERE'S A WAY TO PUT US
[01:10:27] ON A TRAJECTORY THAT BRINGS
[01:10:29] THESE TARIFFS DOWN AND SETS US
[01:10:32] UP IN A DIFFERENT ECONOMIC CIRCUMSTANCE, THEN THE PRIME
[01:10:35] MINISTER WILL HAVE A DECISION TO MAKE. AND WE'LL DECIDE AT THAT POINT
[01:10:39] IF THERE'S A NEGOTIATION TO RESUME. >> Rosemary: BUT IT DOES LOOK --
[01:10:42] AND THIS IS THE LAST QUESTION. IT DOES LOOK, MINISTER, LIKE THE
[01:10:44] MIDTERMS ARE GOING TO BE -- ARE
[01:10:48] GOING TO HAVE AN IMPACT ON THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.
[01:10:51] SURELY THAT WOULD BE A WINDOW FOR THE CANADIAN GOVERNMENT TO
[01:10:54] -- IF, YOU KNOW, THE ADMINISTRATION IS WEAKENED BY
[01:10:57] WHAT HAPPENS IN THE MIDTERMS.
[01:11:01] >> AND AGAIN, ROSEMARY, SURE. I'VE SEEN SPECULATION.
[01:11:05] POLITICAL SCIENTISTS SPEND A LOT OF TIME AND COMMENTATORS TALKING
[01:11:09] ABOUT WHAT HAPPENS ON THE OTHER
[01:11:09] SIDE OF THE MIDTERMS.
[01:11:13] THAT'S AN AMERICAN DEMOCRATIC PROCESS. AMERICANS WILL CHOOSE THEIR
[01:11:16] REPRESENTATIVES IN CONGRESS. >> Rosemary: YEP. >> PRESIDENT TRUMP'S
[01:11:19] ADMINISTRATION WILL BE IN OFFICE FOR TWO MORE YEARS.
[01:11:21] AND A GREAT DEAL OF THE
[01:11:25] AUTHORITY THAT HE'S USING TO APPLY THE TARIFFS, OF COURSE, IS EXECUTIVE AUTHORITY.
[01:11:29] WHICH WON'T BE CHANGED BY THE MIDTERMS. >> Rosemary: RIGHT.
[01:11:32] >> WE'LL LET AMERICAN POLITICS PLAY OUT.
[01:11:34] WE'RE GOING TO CONTINUE TO TRY
[01:11:36] AND REMAIN FOCUSED ON FINDING A
[01:11:39] DEAL THAT WOULD BE IN THE
[01:11:51] HAVE A GREAT WEEKEND. >> Rosemary: STEEL MAKER STELCO
[01:11:54] SAYS IT IS PROCEEDING WITH ITS PLANNED LAYOFFS. THE COMPANY OUTLINED ITS
[01:11:58] RESPONSE TO OTTAWA IN A LETTER. WE'LL HEAR FROM THE C.E.O. OF
[01:12:02] CLEVELAND-CLIFFS, STELCO'S U.S. OWNER, FOR THE FIRST TIME SINCE
[01:12:04] THE LATEST DEVELOPMENT. THAT EXCLUSIVE CONVERSATION COMING UP NEXT.
[01:12:07] ♪♪
[01:12:13] ♪ [upbe
[01:14:35] ♪♪
[01:14:39] >> THESE OBLIGATIONS ARE BINDING.
[01:14:42] AND FAILING TO FOLLOW THEIR
[01:14:47] COMMITMENTS WILL RESULT BUY ACTIONS BY THE GOVERNMENT.
[01:14:51] AND SO BASICALLY MY POINT IS THEY NEED TO COMPLY.
[01:14:55] IF NOT, WE'LL USE THE FULL FORCE
[01:14:57] OF THE LAW.
[01:15:00] >> Rosemary: INDUSTRY MINISTER MELANIE JOLY ON THURSDAY WARNING
[01:15:03] OF LEGAL ACTION AGAINST STELCO. OTTAWA GAVE THE STEELMAKER FIVE
[01:15:06] DAYS TO RESPOND AFTER IT PLANS
[01:15:08] TO LAY OFF UP TO 500 WORKERS.
[01:15:11] CBC NEWS OBTAINED A COPY OF THE RESPONSE OVER THE WEEKEND.
[01:15:14] IT SAYS IT'S NOT VIOLATING ITS EMPLOYMENT COMMITMENTS.
[01:15:17] CLEVELAND-CLIFFS IS THE U.S.
[01:15:26] ROSEMARY. >> Rosemary: SO IN RESPONSE TO THE LETTER THAT STELCO SENT BACK
[01:15:30] TO THE GOVERNMENT OVER THE PAST COUPLE OF DAYS, MINISTER JOLY'S
[01:15:34] OFFICE SAYS THE GOVERNMENT EXPECTS STELCO TO MEET ITS
[01:15:37] LEGALLY BINDING COMMITMENTS TO EMPLOYEES.
[01:15:40] AND THEIR LEGAL TEAM, THE GOVERNMENT'S LEGAL TEAM IS GOING
[01:15:43] TO REVIEW YOUR LETTER.
[01:15:45] ALL OPTIONS ARE ON THE TABLE.
[01:15:47] ARE YOU PREPARED TO FIGHT THIS
[01:15:49] IN COURT, MR. GONCALVES? >> I AM.
[01:15:52] AND JUST TO CLARIFY A FEW POINTS.
[01:15:55] WE HAVE BEEN IN DIRECT
[01:15:58] CONVERSATIONS WITH THE MINISTRY
[01:16:01] OF INNOVATION AND SCIENCE AND
[01:16:03] ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT IN CANADA. >> Rosemary: YEAH.
[01:16:05] >> AND IT'S NOT JUST ONE LETTER. IT'S TWO LETTERS THAT WE
[01:16:09] ACTUALLY SENT ON FRIDAY.
[01:16:13] ONE TO MINISTER JOLY TO REPLY TO
[01:16:16] HER PUBLIC LETTER, BECAUSE SHE SENT A PUBLIC LETTER TO ME.
[01:16:20] I REPLIED WITH A PUBLIC LETTER AS WELL.
[01:16:22] AND THERE'S ANOTHER ONE THAT
[01:16:26] GOES STRAIGHT TO THE DEPUTY MINISTER.
[01:16:29] >> Rosemary: DEPUTY MINISTER. YES.
[01:16:31] >> AND THAT OTHER ONE IS
[01:16:35] PRIVILEGED UNDER SECTION 36 OF
[01:16:37] THE INVESTMENT CANADA ACT.
[01:16:39] SO -- BUT, URN, WE DIDN'T NEED
[01:16:43] THE FIVE DAYS.
[01:16:47] THIS IS SO ABSURD. IT'S EASY TO COUNTER.
[01:16:51] >> Rosemary: LET ME GO TO THE ISSUE OF JOBS, WHICH IS CENTRAL TO THIS OBVIOUSLY.
[01:16:54] IT'S CANADIAN THANKSGIVING. SOME OF THESE WORKERS ARE BEING
[01:16:58] LAID OFF TODAY. AND STELCO IS SAYING IT'S
[01:17:02] COMPLIANT WITH ITS EMPLOYMENT COMMITMENTS AND THE UNDERTAKINGS
[01:17:05] DO NOT STIPULATE A COMMITMENT TO AVOID LAYOFFS.
[01:17:08] THAT WAS IN THE UNDERTAKING AN AGREEMENT TO EMPLOY THE SAME
[01:17:11] NUMBER OF UNIONIZED AND
[01:17:13] NONUNIONIZED EMPLOYEES WHEN THIS HAPPENED. SO HOW IS THAT DIFFERENT?
[01:17:17] WHY ARE YOU NOW SAYING THAT YOU ARE ALLOWED TO DO SOMETHING THAT
[01:17:20] THE UNDERTAKING SAYS YOU SHOULD NOT BE DOING?
[01:17:23] >> YEAH.
[01:17:26] DIFFERENT THAN WHAT HAPPENED AT
[01:17:29] ALGOMA, IN WHICH THE REDUCTION
[01:17:31] IN JOBS WAS PERMANENT.
[01:17:34] AND THE SUBSIDIZED BY THE
[01:17:37] CANADIAN TAXPAYER.
[01:17:39] REMEMBER ALGONA GOT $500 MILLION
[01:17:43] FROM THE CANADIAN GOVERNMENT. AND THEN SHUT DOWN THE -- THEY
[01:17:47] LAID OFF PERMANENTLY MORE THAN 1,000 WORKERS.
[01:17:50] IN OUR CASE, THE LAYOFFS ARE
[01:17:54] ONE, TEMPORARY. TWO, THEY WILL BE REVERSED.
[01:17:57] THREE, I DID NOT ACCEPT CANADIAN
[01:18:00] TAXPAYER MONEY TO DO THAT, BECAUSE THAT WOULD BE COMPLETE
[01:18:03] LI NAKED COMBAT. I DON'T AGREE WITH THAT.
[01:18:07] I DON'T WANT TO DO THAT. BY THE WAY, NO REASON TO BELIEVE
[01:18:10] THAT THERE'S ANY OTHER
[01:18:13] CIRCUMSTANCES BEYOND WHAT'S
[01:18:18] OBVIOUS. BY THE WAY, I NEVER MET MINISTER LEBLANC.
[01:18:21] HE SOUNDS LIKE A LEVEL-LED THE
[01:18:25] PERSON. AND AND HIS INTERVIEW WITH YOU A
[01:18:28] FEW MINUTES AGO WAS SPOT ON. >> Rosemary: TO GO BACK TO THE
[01:18:32] ISSUE OF THE JOBS. WHEN YOU TOOK OVER THE COMPANY,
[01:18:34] I REMEMBER BECAUSE WE SPOKE AT THE TIME.
[01:18:37] ONE OF YOUR COMMITMENTS UNDER THE INVESTMENT CANADA ACT WAS YOU HAD TO KEEP THE LEVEL OF
[01:18:41] EMPLOYEES THE SAME.
[01:18:45] .
[01:18:50] HOW IS IT ACCEPTABLE TO BE LAYING OFF PEOPLE?
[01:18:52] >> THE LAST TIME WE REPORTED TO
[01:18:54] THE CANADIAN GOVERNMENT IN COMPLIANCE.
[01:18:57] I EXPECTED NEXT TIME I'LL BE IN
[01:19:01] COMPLIANCE AGAIN. THERE'S NO PROVISION IN THE
[01:19:03] CONTRACT THAT I HAVE TO KEEP
[01:19:06] EMPLOYMENT AT A CERTAIN LEVEL EVERY SINGLE DAY OF THE FIVE
[01:19:10] YEARS. IF THAT WAS AN IMPOSITION OF THE
[01:19:13] CANADIAN GOVERNMENT, I WOULD NOT
[01:19:16] HAVE ACCEPTED.
[01:19:19] UNDERTAKER -- DECREES ARE NOT IMPOSED TO THE BUYER.
[01:19:21] THIS IS A CONTRACT.
[01:19:23] I ONLY INVESTED $3.4 BILLION
[01:19:27] BECAUSE -- TO BUY STELCO BECAUSE
[01:19:30] I BELIEVE CANADA IS A COUNTRY OF
[01:19:33] LOSS. AND THERE'S NO PROVISION IN THE
[01:19:35] CONTRACT THAT FORCED ME TO HAVE
[01:19:38] THIS SAME EMPLOYMENT LEVEL EVERY
[01:19:40] SINGLE DAY OF THE FIVE YEARS. >> Rosemary: OKAY.
[01:19:44] >> MINISTER JOLY IS ELECTED NOT
[01:19:48] TO ACCEPT. >> Rosemary: LET ME ASK YOU
[01:19:50] ABOUT TARIFFS. OBVIOUSLY THIS IS -- THIS IS BECAUSE OF THE TARIFFS.
[01:19:54] ARE YOU IN FAVOUR OF TARIFFS
[01:19:57] FROM THE U.S. ADMINISTRATION,
[01:19:59] THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION AGAINST CANADA?
[01:20:02] >> I AM IN FAVOUR OF TARIFFS
[01:20:05] AGAINST ALL THE COUNTRIES IN THE
[01:20:07] ENTIRE WORLD THAT DUMP STEEL
[01:20:09] INTO THE UNITED STATES.
[01:20:12] BECAUSE PRESIDENT TRUMP
[01:20:15] IMPLEMENTED IN THE UNITED STATES -- SECTION 232 IS TARIFFS.
[01:20:19] BASED ON NATIONAL SECURITY. WE FINALLY HAVE THE AMERICAN
[01:20:23] STEEL INDUSTRY BACK.
[01:20:23] WE ARE NOW THE THIRD LARGEST
[01:20:28] PRODUCING STEEL COUNTRY IN THE WORLD. AND WE'RE FOURTH FOR A LONG, LONG TIME.
[01:20:32] SO THINGS ARE GETTING MUCH BETTER IN THE UNITED STATES.
[01:20:34] SO I'M IN FAVOUR OF SECTION 232 TARIFFS.
[01:20:38] NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.
[01:20:40] BUT I'M WITH THE SAME POSITION
[01:20:44] OF -- MINISTER DOMINIC LEBLANC.
[01:20:46] WE NEED TO NEGOTIATE A SEPARATE SITUATION BETWEEN THE UNITED
[01:20:50] STATES AND CANADA. THAT HAS BEEN MY POSITION ALL ALONG.
[01:20:53] AND I AM THE BIGGEST APPROPRIATE
[01:20:57] OF NORTH AMERICA IN BOTH SIDES OF THE BORDER. IF YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT
[01:21:01] FORTRESS, I'LL BE GLAD TO TALK. >> Rosemary: WELL, BUT BEING IN
[01:21:05] FAVOUR OF THE TERRORISTS, HAS IT NOT LED TO THIS OUTCOME?
[01:21:08] DO YOU SEE WHAT I'M SAYING HERE?
[01:21:11] >> ROSEMARY, I'M IN FAVOUR OF
[01:21:13] TARIFFS IN THE UNITED STATES.
[01:21:16] I'M IN FAVOUR OF TARIFFS AGAINST
[01:21:18] ALL COUNTRIES THAT DUMP STEEL IN THE UNITED STATES.
[01:21:21] THE SITUATION BETWEEN CANADA AND
[01:21:24] THE UNITED STATES IS STARTING TO BE RESOLVED.
[01:21:27] BECAUSE I STOPPED SELLING.
[01:21:32] FIRST DAY THAT WAS ONLY STELCO, I STOPPED SELLING AT LOW PRICE
[01:21:35] INTO THE UNITED STATES.
[01:21:38] SO THAT WOULD HAVE RESULT -- I
[01:21:40] DON'T CONTROL ANYTHING BEYOND
[01:21:43] STELCO. >> Rosemary: YEAH.
[01:21:45] >> THE FLOW OF ARTIFICIALLY CHEAP STEEL INTO THE UNITED
[01:21:49] STATES FROM CANADA, ONLY THE TARIFFS CAN DO THAT.
[01:21:53] THAT SAID WE HAVE TO ADDRESS THIS SPECIFIC SITUATION OF THE
[01:21:56] UNITED STATES AND CANADA.
[01:21:59] AND THAT'S WHAT WAS BEING NEGOTIATED. AND IT WAS INTERRUPTED IN THE
[01:22:03] MIDDLE OF THE NEGOTIATIONS.
[01:22:05] WE WOULD HAVE A MUCH BETTER
[01:22:07] SITUATION IF THE PATH THAT WE
[01:22:09] STARTED IN JUNE OF 2025 -- IT
[01:22:13] WAS APPROVED IN DECEMBER OF
[01:22:19] 2025. WE WOULD HAVE RESULTED IN A MORE
[01:22:23] COMPREHENSIVE FORTRESS NORTH AMERICA AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND CANADA.
[01:22:27] >> Rosemary: YES. I UNDERSTAND. YES.
[01:22:30] SORRY, I'M RUNNING OUT OF TIME, MR. GONCALVES.
[01:22:32] I UNDERSTAND YOU DIDN'T WANT TO TAKE TAXPAYER MONEY IN ORDER TO
[01:22:36] HELP THINGS. BUT THE GOVERNMENT DID MAKE
[01:22:39] VARIOUS OFFERS TO AVOID THIS OUTCOME. WHY DID YOU NOT ACCEPT ANY OF THEM?
[01:22:43] WHY DID YOU NOT TRY TO FIND A
[01:22:44] WAY OUT OF THIS?
[01:22:48] >> BECAUSE THE PART THAT I HAVE
[01:22:50] TO COMPARE IS ALGOMA.
[01:22:54] ALGOMA TOOK MONEY.
[01:22:55] $500 MILLION FROM THE GOVERNMENT
[01:22:58] TO SHUT DOWN AND LAY OFF
[01:23:02] PERMANENTLY 1,000 WORKERS. I DON'T DO THESE THINGS.
[01:23:06] >> Rosemary: MR. GONCALVES, WOULD YOU CONSIDER -- WOULD YOU
[01:23:07] CONSIDER SELLING THE COMPANY?
[01:23:10] >> FOR A GOOD OFFER, YES.
[01:23:13] BUT I ALSO BELIEVE THAT BEING IN CANADA WITH A GREAT WORKFORCE
[01:23:17] THAT I HAVE THERE, UNDER THE
[01:23:19] CURRENT TRADE CIRCUMSTANCES,
[01:23:21] ABSOLUTELY WE CAN CONTINUE TO BE
[01:23:23] A GOOD -- A GOOD CITIZEN IN CANADA.
[01:23:26] WE'LL CONTINUE TO EMPLOY ALL THE
[01:23:30] WORKFORCE THAT I HAVE THERE WHEN WE BOUGHT THE COMPANY.
[01:23:33] WE'LL CONTINUE TO BE IN COMPLIANCE.
[01:23:36] LIKE I SAID, IT'S A CONTRACT.
[01:23:39] >> Rosemary: LET ME END ON THIS, MR. GONCALVES. WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO THE
[01:23:43] WORKERS WHO BELIEVED THAT YOU HAVE -- YOU'VE LET THEM DOWN AND
[01:23:46] THAT YOU DIDN'T KEEP UP YOUR END OF THE DEAL.
[01:23:50] >> I BELIEVE THAT THEY'RE BEING PLAYED.
[01:23:54] I BELIEVE THAT HAVING THE PRIME MINISTER OF CANADA, A PERSON
[01:23:57] THAT I HAVE NEVER MET, SAY THAT
[01:23:59] I BETRAYED MY EMPLOYEES, THIS IS
[01:24:02] NOT TRUE.
[01:24:04] THIS WAS PRIME MINISTER CARNEY
[01:24:07] REPEATING WHAT MINISTER JOLY SAID WITHOUT THINKING. HE'S A BUSY GUY.
[01:24:11] PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT MR. LEBLANC IS DOING.
[01:24:15] DON'T PAY ATTENTION TO THE RHETORIC OF PEOPLE THAT ARE JUST
[01:24:19] PLAYING POLITICS. >> Rosemary: OKAY.
[01:24:21] >> WE HAVE A MUCH BIGGER TASK AT
[01:24:25] HAND. HAPPY THANKSGIVING. THIS IS THE LAST THANKSGIVING
[01:24:28] THAT YOU'RE OUT OF A JOB. YOU'RE GOING TO BE BROUGHT BACK OPINION.
[01:24:37] >> Rosemary: HAVE A GOOD DAY. WE'VE HEARD FROM THE BUSINESS
[01:24:39] PERSPECTIVE ABOUT THE LAYOFFS. LET'S TALK ABOUT THE POLITICAL PART OF THIS STORY.
[01:24:43] OUR "SUNDAY SCRUM" HAVE BEEN LEAPLEAPING IN -- HAVE BEEN
[01:24:47] LISTENING IN AND THEY'LL RESPOND AFTER THIS BREAK. YOU'RE WATCHING "R.B.L."
[01:24:51] ♪♪ >> The d
[01:27:09] ♪♪
[01:27:14] >> PRIME MINISTER CARNEY
[01:27:16] REPEATING WHAT MINISTER JOLY SAID WITHOUT THINKING.
[01:27:20] HE'S A BUSY GUY. PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT MINISTER
[01:27:23] LEBLANC IS DOING. DON'T PAY ATTENTION TO THE
[01:27:27] RHETORIC OF PEOPLE THAT ARE JUST PLAYING POLITICS.
[01:27:30] WE HAVE A MUCH BIGGER TASK AT HAND.
[01:27:32] AND YOU'RE GOING TO BE BROUGHT BACK. HAPPY THANKSGIVING.
[01:27:35] THIS IS THE LAST THANKSGIVING THAT YOU ARE OUT OF A JOB.
[01:27:39] YOU'RE GOING TO BE BROUGHT BACK. >> Rosemary: THE C.E.O. OF
[01:27:42] CLEVELAND-CLIFFS THERE ABOUT HOW THE COMPANY'S RESPONDING TO
[01:27:45] OTTAWA'S CRITICISM OF THOSE LAYOFFS AT STELCO. LET'S BRING IN OUR "SUNDAY
[01:27:48] SCRUM" TO TALK ABOUT IT. CHARELLE EVELYN IS THE MANAGING
[01:27:51] EDITOR AT THE HILL TIMES, ROBERT
[01:27:53] BENZIE THE QUEEN'S PARK BUREAU CHIEF FOR THE "TORONTO STAR,"
[01:27:56] AND ROB SHAW POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT AT CHEK NEWS.
[01:28:00] HE'S IN VICTORIA. ROBERT BENZIE, I'M GOING TO START WITH YOU.
[01:28:03] WHAT DID YOU MAKE OF THE EXPLANATION THERE BY THE C.E.O.
[01:28:07] OF CLEVELAND-CLIFFS? >> WELL, THAT WAS A GOOD INTERVIEW, ROSY.
[01:28:10] HE MADE SOME NEWS. SOME HEADLINES OUT THEREOF.
[01:28:12] BASICALLY SAYING THAT CARNEY AND
[01:28:15] JOLY ARE PLAYING POLITICS AND
[01:28:17] THE WORKERS ARE BEING PLAYED.
[01:28:21] AND I ALSO STRUCK BY THE FACT THAT HE -- HE SAID HE WOULD BE
[01:28:24] WILLING TO SELL THE COMPANY IF THEY GET A GOOD OFFER.
[01:28:27] I THINK THAT MIGHT BE THE BEST OUTCOME.
[01:28:29] BECAUSE THE PROBLEM IS THAT HE
[01:28:31] IS -- HE IS A TRUMP-SUPPORTING
[01:28:36] STEEL TYCOON. UNDERSTANDABLY IT'S GOOD FOR HIS BUSINESS IN THE UNITED STATES.
[01:28:39] WHAT'S GOOD FOR HIS COMPANY IN THE UNITED STATES IS NOT GOOD FOR HIS COMPANY IN CANADA.
[01:28:43] AND THIS IS THE SIGNIFICANT ISSUE, ROSY.
[01:28:46] THERE'S 23,000 STEEL WORKERS IN CANADA. MOST OF THEM IN ONTARIO.
[01:28:50] THIS IS A HUGE, HUGE BLOW.
[01:28:52] I WAS -- I FOUND IT OUT THAT HE
[01:28:54] WOULD SAY THAT, DON'T WORRY,
[01:28:57] YOU'LL BE BACK. I DON'T KNOW WHAT HE KNOWS ABOUT HOW THE DISPUTE KNOWS THAT THE
[01:29:01] REST OF US DON'T KNOW. HOW DOES HE KNOW THE WORKERS
[01:29:04] WILL BE BACK BY THANKSGIVING 2027. >> Rosemary: I DON'T KNOW.
[01:29:08] I MEAN, MAYBE HE THINKS THAT THERE'S GOING TO BE A DEAL. YOU KNOW, MAYBE HE THINKS THAT
[01:29:11] THEY'RE GOING TO GET TO A PLACE WHERE THE TARIFFS WILL BE LOWERED.
[01:29:14] THAT WAS THE ONLY THING THAT -- MAYBE HE KNOWS.
[01:29:18] YEAH. I AGREE. I'M NOT SURE THAT WE KNOW THAT EITHER.
[01:29:21] ROB SHAW, THOUGH, IT IS SORT OF -- WHAT'S SO INTERESTING ABOUT
[01:29:25] THE STORY AND OBVIOUSLY UPSETTING FOR MANY PEOPLE IN
[01:29:29] HAMILTON, IT'S SORT OF A DIRECT
[01:29:31] EXAMPLE OF WHAT'S HAPPENING TO CANADIANS.
[01:29:33] AND IN THIS CASE, REALLY DEVASTATING FOR THE CITY OF
[01:29:37] HAMILTON, WHO I DON'T KNOW THAT THOSE JOBS ARE COMING BACK EITHER, IN SPITE OF WHAT THE
[01:29:41] C.E.O. SAID. >> NO. AND, YOU KNOW, THE IDEA THAT
[01:29:45] THEY'LL COME BACK WITH A TRADE DEAL MAKES THE ASSUMPTION THAT
[01:29:48] THE AMERICANS WANT A TRADE DEAL.
[01:29:51] AND THAT WITH MIDTERMS IN THREE WEEKS, PRESIDENT TRUMP IS NOT
[01:29:54] TRYING TO SHOW THAT HE'S BRINGING STEEL JOBS BACK TO THE
[01:29:57] UNITED STATES. THIS ISN'T REALLY THE OUTCOME
[01:30:00] THAT TRUMP WANTS IN THE SHORT-TERM.
[01:30:02] SO I DON'T -- I'M NOT SURE THAT THAT ARGUMENT KIND OF REACHES
[01:30:05] THE CIRCLE. AND TO PICK UP ON ROB'S POINT
[01:30:09] THERE, IF THE BEST OUTCOME FOR THE CANADIAN GOVERNMENT IS TO
[01:30:12] FORCE A SALE HERE, THROUGH COURT
[01:30:13] ACTION AND A COURT DIVESTITURE,
[01:30:16] WHO IS GOING TO BUY STELCO? IS IT A PRIVATE SALE?
[01:30:19] IS IT A GOVERNMENT PURCHASE AT SOME POINT AS PART OF THE
[01:30:23] CONTINUING KIND OF BUILD CANADA,
[01:30:26] SECURE THE SUPPLY CHAIN, BUY A PIPELINE.
[01:30:28] YOU CAN BUY A STEEL PLANT.
[01:30:31] THOSE ARE ALL INTERESTING OUTCOMES. THE OTHER FLAW IN THE ARGUMENT FROM THE C.E.O. THERE IS THE
[01:30:35] IDEA THAT HE THINKS THE PRIME
[01:30:38] MINISTER -- THAT THE INDUSTRY MINISTER HAS LINES THE PRIME
[01:30:42] MINISTER HASN'T SEEN. I THINK IT'S PROBABLY THE OTHER WAY AROUND.
[01:30:46] THE INDUSTRY MINISTER IS READING THE LINES FROM THE PRIME MINISTER'S OFFICE IS HOW I WOULD
[01:30:50] READ THAT. >> Rosemary: YEAH.
[01:30:52] CHARELLE, IT ALSO SOUNDS LIKE MR. GONCALVES IS READY TO GO TO
[01:30:56] COURT IN THIS CASE. AND I DON'T KNOW POLITICALLY
[01:31:00] WHETHER THAT IS A GREAT IDEA. BUT, I MEAN, THE GOVERNMENT
[01:31:03] CAN'T JUST SIT THERE AND LET THIS UNFOLD. >> WELL, I DON'T KNOW.
[01:31:07] I WOULD SAY THAT POLITICALLY IT
[01:31:09] ACTUALLY MIGHT BE THE BETTER OPTION.
[01:31:12] BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY, YES, THERE'S THE TIME ELEMENT OF IT.
[01:31:15] HOW DO YOU SUPPORT THE WORKERS. THAT'S A LOT OF UNCERTAINTY.
[01:31:17] BUT YOU ALSO HAVE TO BE SEEN TO
[01:31:20] BE LOOKING TO ENFORCE THE DEALS THAT ARE MADE.
[01:31:23] AND THAT'S NOT NECESSARILY SOMETHING THAT YOU WANT TO HAVE
[01:31:26] JUST LINGERING IN THE WIND. >> Rosemary: YEAH. >> YEAH.
[01:31:29] IT COMES BACK DOWN TO, YES,
[01:31:33] PEOPLE KNOW THAT DEALING WITH DONALD TRUMP IS NOT NECESSARILY
[01:31:36] A LINEAR BLACK AND WHITE SORT OF THING THAT HAPPENS.
[01:31:40] AND POLLING SHOWS THAT CANADIANS
[01:31:43] GENERALLY SUPPORT HAVING NO DEAL WITH THE U.S. VERSUS A BAD DEAL.
[01:31:47] BUT WHEN THINGS AREN'T -- AREN'T
[01:31:51] POLITICAL OR PATRIOTIC POSITION, WHEN IT COMES DOWN TO PEOPLE WHO
[01:31:54] ARE ACTUALLY AFFECTED IN TANGIBLE WAYS LIKE LOSING THEIR
[01:31:57] JOBS OVER THANKSGIVING, HOW DO YOU SUPPORT PEOPLE. >> Rosemary: YEAH.
[01:32:01] >> THEN, YOU KNOW, THE POLITICAL QUESTIONS.
[01:32:04] DO WE PUSH THE COMPANY TO SELL?
[01:32:06] DO WE NATIONALIZE THINGS IS
[01:32:10] NEVER A STRAIGHTFORWARD APPROACH. >> Rosemary: NO. >> IT PUSHES ABOUT -- WHERE THE
[01:32:13] GOVERNMENT WANTS TO SPEND ITS MONEY. WHAT IT WANTS TO SPEND ITS MONEY
[01:32:17] ON. SHOULD THE FREE MARKET BE SUPPORTING IT? OBVIOUSLY IT CAN'T. LOOK AT CANADA POST.
[01:32:21] YOU HAVE THE QUESTIONS ABOUT, WELL, WHY IS IT MAKING MONEY?
[01:32:24] IT'S REALLY A LOSE-LOSE SITUATION AT THAT POINT. >> Rosemary: YEAH.
[01:32:27] >> YOU WANT TO TRY TO MITIGATE
[01:32:29] THE DAMAGE AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE.
[01:32:32] >> Rosemary: THE C.E.O.'S POINT WAS WE SAID WE'D KEEP THE SAME
[01:32:36] NUMBER OF EMPLOYEES. WE DIDN'T SAY IT WOULD BE THE SAME EVERY YEAR, WHICH I DON'T
[01:32:39] KNOW LEGALLY HOW VIABLE THAT IS.
[01:32:43] IT'S A BIG RED FLAG ABOUT SELLING THESE KINDS OF COMPANIES
[01:32:47] TO AMERICAN COMPANIES AT THIS MOMENT IN TIME.
[01:32:49] IT'S JUST -- IT'S MAYBE NOT SOMETHING WE SHOULD BE DOING.
[01:32:53] >> YEAH. I MEAN, IT'S A TOUGH ONE.
[01:32:55] BUT, I MEAN, ESPECIALLY THE PRIME MINISTER, YOU KNOW, JUST A
[01:32:59] MONTH AGO WAS HAVING THIS BIG INVESTMENT SUMMIT HERE IN TORONTO. >> Rosemary: THAT'S RIGHT.
[01:33:02] >> AND SAYING CANADA IS OPEN FOR BUSINESS.
[01:34:53] >> HAPPY THANKSGIVING.
[01:34:56] >> Rosemary: ALBERTANS JUST DAYS AWAY FROM A REFERENDUM WHICH WILL ASK THEM, AMONGST OTHER
[01:35:00] THINGS, WHETHER THEY WANT THE PROVINCE TO REMAIN IN CANADA. I'LL SPEAK WITH THE PROVINCE'S
[01:35:04] FORMER PREMIER ABOUT WHY SHE BELIEVES THE CURRENT PREMIER HAS
[01:35:07] BEEN THROWING GAS ON THE PROVERBIAL SEPARATIST FIRE.
[01:35:11] YOU'RE WATCHING "R.B.L." ♪♪
[01:37:51] ♪♪
[01:37:58] >> Rosemary: ALBERTANS JUST
[01:37:59] EIGHT DAY ACE -- DAYS AWAY FROMA
[01:38:03] REFERENDUM. WHETHER TO REMAIN IN CANADA OR
[01:38:06] BEGIN THE PROCESS OF SEPARATING.
[01:38:12] SOME OF THE CRITICS LIKE FORMER PREMIER RACHEL NOTLEY SAY
[01:38:15] SMITH'S ACTIONS LIKE LOWERING
[01:38:18] THE THRESHOLD FOR CITIZEN-LED PETITIONS HELPED SEPARATIST GET
[01:38:22] TO THIS POINT.
[01:38:23] I SPOKE ABOUT THE RHETORIC ABOUT
[01:38:35] >> Rosemary: I'M GOING TO START WITH THE ONE THAT MAYBE TOOK UP
[01:38:37] A FAIR AMOUNT OF SPACE THIS WEEK
[01:38:40] THE ELON MUSK POST ON X. SAYING THAT ALBERTA,
[01:38:43] SASKATCHEWAN AND QUÉBEC SHOULD ALL SEPARATE FROM CANADA.
[01:38:47] I WONDER WHAT YOU MAKE OF THAT, A U.S. GOVERNMENT, YOU KNOW,
[01:38:51] OFFICIAL OR EX-OFFICIAL, PEOPLE
[01:38:54] LIKE MUSK ARE INFLUENCING CANADIAN POLITICS AT THIS MOMENT?
[01:38:58] TIME? >> WE ALL KNOW THAT'S INCREDIBLY
[01:39:02] INAPPROPRIATE AND DISRESPECTFUL.
[01:39:05] IT'S NOT NEW BEHAVIOUR OUT OF THIS ADMINISTRATION AND SUPPORTERS OF SAME OVER THE
[01:39:08] COURSE OF THE LAST MANY MONTHS.
[01:39:13] BUT I THINK THAT FOLKS THINK THAT THERE'S SOMETHING TO BE
[01:39:16] GAINED FOR ALBERTANS BY
[01:39:18] SEPARATING OUGHT TO ASK THEMSELVES WHY CERTAIN FOLKS
[01:39:22] SOUTH OF THE BORDER THINK THEY
[01:39:25] HAVE SOMETHING TO GAIN FROM ALBERTA SEPARATING.
[01:39:29] I THINK WE ALL KNOW ALBERTA IS STRONGER WITHIN CANADA.
[01:39:32] AND I THINK THE EFFORTS BY THE
[01:39:35] MINORITY OF FOLKS FROM THE U.S., WHO ARE INTERESTED IN SEEING
[01:39:38] CANADA WEAKENED SHOULD DELIVER A
[01:39:42] MESSAGE TO ALBERTANS ON THE FENCE THAT, IN FACT, ALBERTA IS
[01:39:45] STRONGER WITHIN CANADA. >> Rosemary: THIS HAPPENED, OF
[01:39:48] COURSE, THE SAME WEEK THAT WE SAW THIS REPORTING FROM "THE
[01:39:51] GLOBE AND MAIL" THAT SHOWED THAT ALBERTA SEPARATISTS MET WITH
[01:39:55] STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIALS THREE TIMES. AND THAT NOT ONLY MET WITH THEM
[01:39:58] AND TALKED TO THEM, BUT SAID, HEY, IF YOU WANT OUR WATER, OUR
[01:40:02] RESOURCE ROYALTIES, WE CAN DO THAT FOR YOU IF YOU HELP US.
[01:40:05] WHAT DID YOU -- MAKE OF THAT RET
[01:40:09] THAT ALBERTA SEPARATISTS ARE SEEKING SUPPORT FROM PEOPLE IN THE UNITED STATES?
[01:40:13] >> WELL, I MEAN, I THINK IT'S
[01:40:17] PROFOUNDLY IRONIC. I MEAN, HERE'S A GROUP OF PEOPLE
[01:40:21] COMPLAINING OVER THE FACT THAT
[01:40:22] THEY PERCEIVE -- OR OTTAWA TAKES
[01:40:25] TOO MUCH OUT OF ALBERTA AND
[01:40:29] THEY'RE PLANNING TO FINANCE THEIR DEPARTURE FROM CANADA BY
[01:40:32] TAKING EVEN MORE TO ALBERTA'S
[01:40:35] WEALTH AND GIVING IT TO A
[01:40:39] SOURCE, WHICH IS EVEN FARTHER
[01:40:41] AWAY FROM ALBERTA, OVER WHOM WE HAVE LESS CONTROL IN AGENCY.
[01:40:44] SO IT REALLY GOES TO SHOW THAT
[01:40:47] IT'S NOT ABOUT GROWING THE BEST
[01:40:51] OUTCOMES FOR ALBERTA CITIZENS. IT'S RATHER ABOUT, YOU KNOW,
[01:40:55] SMALL GROUPS OF PEOPLE THINKING THAT THEY HAVE MORE POWER AND
[01:40:58] DIFFERENT RELATIONSHIPS. SO, ANYWAY, BUT ALSO OF COURSE
[01:41:02] IT'S DEEPLY INAPPROPRIATE. OBVIOUSLY THEY'RE NOT AGENTS OF
[01:41:05] THE GOVERNMENT. >> Rosemary: YEAH. >> IT'S HARD TO SAY.
[01:41:08] AS A WHOLE, WE SHOULD BE LOOKING
[01:41:10] AT WHETHER THERE'S A LEGAL FRAMEWORK TO PUT IN PLACE TO
[01:41:13] LIMIT THAT KIND OF ACTIVITY. THEY OBVIOUSLY HAVE NO CAPACITY
[01:41:17] TO MAKE ANY KIND OF PROMISE LIKE THAT.
[01:41:20] BUT IT'S INTERESTING THAT ANYBODY TOOK THE TIME TO FAKE
[01:41:24] THEIR MEETINGS -- TO TAKE THEIR
[01:41:29] MEETINGS. >> Rosemary: YOU KNOW PREMIER
[01:41:30] SMITH FACED CRITICISM THROUGH THIS.
[01:41:34] LOWER THE THRESHOLD FOR CITIZEN-LED PETITIONS ON SEPARATION.
[01:41:37] SHE HAS A VARIETY OF OTHER QUESTIONS ALBERTANS ARE BEING ASKED.
[01:41:40] JUST CHOOSING TO PUT THIS QUESTION ON THE TABLE.
[01:41:44] DO YOU THINK THAT THAT WAS A MISTAKE? BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY SHE THINKS
[01:41:47] THAT THIS IS -- SHE HOPES THAT THIS WILL SORT OF CLOSE THE
[01:41:51] CONVERSATION IN ALBERTA.
[01:41:53] >> WELL, I MEAN, A LOT OF PEOPLE TAKE THAT POSITION THAT
[01:41:57] OBVIOUSLY SHE HOPES BECAUSE SHE SUPPORTS CANADA.
[01:42:01] BUT HONESTLY I AM NOT CONVINCED THAT THAT IS THE CASE.
[01:42:05] I THINK SOMEBODY THAT SUPPORTS CANADA WOULD DO A MUCH BETTER
[01:42:08] JOB OF SUPPORTING ALBERTA
[01:42:10] STASTAYING IN CANADA THAN THIS PREMIER HAS.
[01:42:13] WHEN THE RUBBER HITS THE ROAD, EVERY TIME SHE'S COMPELLED TO
[01:42:17] MAKE A DECISION ON THE MATTER, SHE'S MADE A DECISION THAT
[01:42:19] SUPPORTS THE SEPARATISTS OR SUPPORTS HER OWN PATH TO
[01:42:23] RETAINING POWER.
[01:42:23] BUT UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES HAS
[01:42:27] SHE EVER DONE ALBERTA REMAINING IN CANADA.
[01:42:31] THROUGHOUT ALL OF THIS, DANIELLE SMITH HAS VERY CLEARLY PAVED THE
[01:42:35] WAY FOR THE SEPARATIST QUESTION ALL ALONG.
[01:42:38] SHE'S NOT IN ANY WAY HOLDING HER CAUCUS OR HER PARTY TO ACCOUNT
[01:42:42] FOR THE FACT THAT THEY ARE
[01:42:44] PURSUING A SEPARATIST AGENDA.
[01:42:47] AND ON TOP OF IT, THIS IS TURNED
[01:42:50] OUT TO BE A HUGE DISTRACTION
[01:42:54] FROM OTHER ISSUES THAT ARE SQUARELY WITHIN THE AREA OF
[01:42:57] RESPONSIBILITY OF THIS PROVINCIAL GOVERNMENT. WHERE THEY ARE FAILING AND
[01:43:01] ALBERTANS ARE SUFFERING AS A RESULT.
[01:43:04] >> Rosemary: TO BE FAIR, THE PREMIER DID JUST NEGOTIATE THE
[01:43:06] NEXT PHASE OF A SECOND PIPELINE.
[01:43:08] SHE HAS EXTRACTED OTHER THINGS
[01:43:11] FROM OTTAWA THROUGH THE PAST --
[01:43:14] SINCE PRIME MINISTER CARNEY CAME
[01:43:17] INTO OFFICE.
[01:43:19] IS SOUNDS LIKE SOMEONE TRYING TO
[01:43:23] BETTER THEIR PROVINCE. DOES IT NOT?
[01:43:25] >> I GUESS -- I MEAN, WHAT I
[01:43:30] WILL SAY IS THAT THOSE PIECES
[01:43:33] ARE THINGS THAT -- YES, IT STRENGTHENS -- IT MAY STRENGTHEN ALBERTA.
[01:43:37] WE'LL SEE. I MEAN, WE'LL SEE WHERE IT ALL
[01:43:39] ENDS UP AT THE END OF THE DAY.
[01:43:42] ABSOLUTELY, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE A FEDERAL GOVERNMENT THAT IS
[01:43:44] TRYING VERY HARD TO RESPOND TO
[01:43:48] THE CONCERNS OF ALBERTANS THAT
[01:43:49] HAVE BEEN EXPRESSED ACROSS THE BOARD.
[01:43:53] AND I THINK IT'S HARD FOR HER
[01:43:54] NOT TO ENGAGE IN THAT.
[01:43:58] BUT I DON'T SEE THE CALLING OF THE REFERENDUM AS A STRATEGIC
[01:44:02] PLOY ON HER PART TO KILL THE ISSUE.
[01:44:04] I THINK SHE'S BEEN THROWING GAS ON THE FIRE FROM DAY ONE.
[01:44:08] >> Rosemary: SO, YOU KNOW, THE POLLS RIGHT NOW SUGGEST THAT
[01:44:10] THIS IS NOT GOING TO GO AHEAD.
[01:44:13] BUT THERE IS CONCERN I THINK
[01:44:16] THAT IF THE PERCENTAGE IS HIGH
[01:44:19] ENOUGH, IT WILL GIVE THE MESSAGE
[01:44:21] THAT THERE IS A NEED FOR
[01:44:24] SEPARATIST PARTY, A POLITICAL MOVEMENT IN ALBERTA.
[01:44:26] DO YOU THINK THAT THIS IS GOING TO CONTINUE?
[01:44:30] DO YOU THINK THAT IT WILL BECOME SOMETHING MORE FORMALIZED THE
[01:44:33] WAY IT IS IN QUÉBEC?
[01:44:37] >> I THINK IT'S CERTAINLY POSSIBLE.
[01:44:39] RIGHT NOW THE U.C.P. ITSELF IS
[01:44:42] DOMINATED BY SEPARATISTS. YOU KNOW, EVEN IF ONE TAKES THE
[01:44:45] MOST GENEROUS APPROACH TO
[01:44:48] DANIELLE SMITH'S MOTIVATIONS ON
[01:44:51] THIS, THAT GENEROUS APPROACH
[01:44:54] SUGGESTS WHAT SHE'S DOING IS
[01:44:56] SUCCEEDING TO THE DOMINANT INFLUENCES WITHIN THEIR OWN PARTY.
[01:45:00] THEY'VE BEEN CLEAR THAT THEY'RE NOT GOING TO BACK DOWN ON THIS.
[01:45:03] I THINK THERE'S A STRUCTURAL
[01:45:05] PROBLEM IN THE U.C.P. RIGHT NOW
[01:45:10] BECAUSE THEY'RE HIGHLY CONFLICTED ON THIS MATTER. ROUGHLY 50/50.
[01:45:13] THE ACTIVE MEMBERSHIP AND THE
[01:45:14] SUPPORT GROUP.
[01:45:20] I WISH WE WOULD SEE THE END OF THIS. WE'LL CONTINUE TO SEE PATHWAYS
[01:45:24] FOR THESE FOLKS UNTIL THE PARTY
[01:45:30] REINVENTING ITSELF OR THE GOVERNMENT CHANGES.
[01:45:34] >> Rosemary: WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO ALBERTANS, SOME OF WHOM VOTE
[01:45:37] TO GO FORWARD, THEY BELIEVE IT'S A LEVERAGE POINT.
[01:45:40] THEY CAN SEND A MESSAGE TO OTTAWA THAT THERE ARE THINGS THAT NEED TO BE RESOLVED.
[01:45:44] YOU I'M SURE ALSO UNDERSTAND
[01:45:47] FRUSTRATIONS THAT SOME ALBERTANS HAVE. WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO THEM,
[01:45:50] WELL, I JUST WANT TO SEND A
[01:45:53] MESSAGE TO THE FEDERAL
[01:45:57] GOVERNMENT.
[01:45:57] >> I BELIEVE VERY STRONGLY STRO-
[01:46:02] STRONGLY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT RECEIVED THE MESSAGE. I DON'T THINK THIS HELPS.
[01:46:06] I THINK THE MESSAGE BEING SENT RIGHT NOW IS NOT BEING SENT NOT
[01:46:09] TO OTTAWA, BUT TO INVESTORS
[01:46:12] AROUND THE WORLD.
[01:46:14] AND ALSO TO PERSPECTIVE
[01:46:18] EMPLOYEES. AND AS WELL TO CLIENTS AND
[01:46:21] CUSTOMERS AND SUPPLIERS.
[01:46:22] AND THAT MESSAGE IS YOU CANNOT
[01:46:25] COUNT ON THE STABILITY OF ALBERTA. AND YOU CANNOT COUNT ON THE
[01:46:29] STABILITY OF YOUR INVESTMENTS IN ALBERTA.
[01:46:32] SO I THINK THAT THAT -- THAT PEOPLE HAVE TO RETHINK WHAT IT
[01:46:47] IDEA OF AN INDEPENDENT ALBERTA,
[01:47:00] >> Rosemary: SO YOU ARE VOTING
[01:47:03] IN FAVOUR THE NEXT STEP FOR
[01:47:04] THIS, FOR A REFERENDUM ON
[01:47:08] INDEPENDENCE. TELL ME WHY. TELL ME THE THINGS YOU'RE THINKING ABOUT.
[01:47:12] >> REALLY, MY BIGGEST BEEF AND
[01:47:15] THIS GOES RIGHT BACK TO THE
[01:47:17] BEGINNING OF -- HOW WE WERE SET
[01:47:21] UP IN CANADA.
[01:47:22] WE NEED FAIR AND EQUAL
[01:47:25] REPRESENTATION FOR CANADIANS AND
[01:47:27] WE HAVE NOT HAD THAT.
[01:47:30] MANY PEOPLE THINK THAT OUR REPRESENTATION IN THE HOUSE OF
[01:47:33] COMMONS AND THE SENATE IS BASED ON POPULATION. BUT WHEN IT COMES TO THE HOUSE
[01:47:37] OF COMMONS, THAT'S ONLY ACTUALLY IN THREE DIFFERENT PROVINCES.
[01:47:39] ALBERTA, B.C., AND ONTARIO.
[01:47:42] EVERY OTHER PROVINCE HAS ONE OR
[01:47:44] TWO SPECIAL CLAUSES APPLIED TO
[01:47:49] THEIR POPULATION NUMBER. WHICH SKEWS THE FAIR AND EQUAL
[01:47:53] REPRESENTATION. THAT'S LED TO A LOT OF POLITICAL GAMES THAT HAVE BEEN USED ON THE
[01:47:56] CANADIAN PEOPLE TO DIVIDE US.
[01:47:59] AND WE ARE WHERE WE ARE SIMPLY
[01:48:02] BECAUSE OF THIS ONE FACT. ALL OF THE PROBLEMS ARE A
[01:48:05] SYMPTOM OF THIS ONE PROBLEM. IN THE LAST FEDERAL ELECTION, WE
[01:48:09] ADDED SEATS IN B.C., ALBERTA AND ONTARIO.
[01:48:11] THOSE ARE THE ONLY THREE PROVINCES WHERE IT IS STRICTLY POPULATION.
[01:48:15] BUT EVERYTHING ELSE HAS THOSE SPECIAL CLAUSES APPLIED THAT
[01:48:18] SKEWS THAT IDEA OF FAIRNESS. >> Rosemary: OKAY.
[01:48:21] SO WHAT IS IT THAT YOU THINK IS
[01:48:25] -- WHAT IS THE PROBLEM THEN?
[01:48:26] DO YOU FEEL LIKE PEOPLE DON'T
[01:48:31] GET -- ALBERTA DOESN'T GET ENOUGH ATTENTION FROM THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT?
[01:48:33] I'M JUST TRYING TO BE A LITTLE MORE CONCISE. YEAH.
[01:48:37] >> WELL, I GUESS YOU COULD SAY IT'S ATTENTION. I DON'T BELIEVE THAT'S REALLY
[01:48:40] WHAT IT IS. IT'S REPRESENTATION.
[01:48:43] OUR VOICES AND OUR OPINIONS ARE,
[01:48:46] OUR WAY OF LIFE, OUR ECONOMIES
[01:48:51] DO NOT COUNT AS MUCH WHEN IT COMES TO THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT MAKING CERTAIN DECISIONS AS
[01:48:54] OTHER AREAS OF THE COUNTRY.
[01:48:58] AND AGAIN THAT'S A REFLECTION OF THE SYSTEM THAT WE ARE LIVING UNDER.
[01:49:02] >> Rosemary: AND HOW DOES THAT
[01:49:05] MANIFEST ITSELF DO YOU THINK IN TERMS OF WHAT ALBERTA HAS OR
[01:49:08] DOESN'T HAVE OR NEEDS?
[01:49:10] >> WELL, OUR INDUSTRY, OUR
[01:49:15] AGRICULTURE AND OUR OIL AND GAS
[01:49:18] REPUBLICAN OFTEN THE BRUNT OR
[01:49:22] BLAMED FOR ENVIRONMENTAL
[01:49:24] CONDITIONS, EVEN THOUGH I HAVE LIVED IN MAJOR OIL AND GAS
[01:49:28] COUNTRY AND I HAVE WORKED IN AGRICULTURE.
[01:49:31] AND I CAN TELL YOU THAT OUR
[01:49:33] STANDARDS -- OUR ENVIRONMENTAL STANDARDS ARE WORLD CLASS.
[01:49:36] BUT WE ARE OFTEN BLAMED, YOU
[01:49:38] KNOW, COWS FARTING AND WE NEED
[01:49:48] TO HAVE OUR VOICES ACTUALLY HEARD AND COUNTED JUST AS MUCH
[01:49:51] AS ANY OTHER CANADIANS. >> Rosemary: SURE.
[01:49:54] >> AND THE FACT THAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HAS NOW, YOU KNOW,
[01:49:58] GREEN LIT ANOTHER PIPELINE, YOU KNOW, I NOTICED THIS WEEK A
[01:50:01] COUPLE OF JUDGES WERE NAMED IN
[01:50:03] CONJUNCTION WITH THE ALBERTA GOVERNMENT.
[01:50:05] DOES THAT KIND OF STUFF CHANGE
[01:50:08] YOUR PERSPECTIVE THAT THERE IS A FEDERAL GOVERNMENT THAT'S LISTENING A LITTLE BIT TO SOME
[01:50:12] OF THOSE CONCERNS? >> WELL, THOSE ARE REALLY NICE
[01:50:16] ANNOUNCEMENTS THAT HAVE COME
[01:50:17] WITHIN TWO WEEKS OF A REFERENDUM
[01:50:20] ON MOVING FORWARD WITH INDEPENDENCE.
[01:50:22] SO I HONESTLY I HAVE A VERY DIFFICULT TIME TAKING THEM
[01:50:26] SERIOUSLY. THOSE ANNOUNCEMENTS COULD HAVE BEEN MADE MONTHS AGO BUT THEY WERE SAFE FOR NOW.
[01:50:30] THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT. THE POLITICAL GAMES THAT GET
[01:50:34] PLAYED ON THE CANADIAN PEOPLE. ALBERTANS ARE NOT THAT STUPID.
[01:50:36] WE SEE THROUGH IT. >> Rosemary: DO YOU SINCERELY
[01:50:40] WANT A REFERENDUM ON INDEPENDENCE AND INDEPENDENCE?
[01:50:43] OR IS THIS A LEVERAGE MECHANISM, AS IT IS FOR SOME PEOPLE WHO ARE
[01:50:47] VOTING THIS WAY? >> I HAVE BEEN INVOLVED IN THE
[01:50:50] ALBERTA INDEPENDENCE MOVEMENT FOR THE LAST SIX YEARS. AND I'VE TAKEN SIX YEARS TO
[01:50:54] STUDY THIS OUT.
[01:50:55] AND I AM TO THE POINT WHERE I
[01:50:58] DON'T BELIEVE THAT AS ALBERTANS WE HAVE ANY OTHER OPTION. WE HAVE EXHAUSTED ALL OTHER
[01:51:02] OPTIONS IN TRYING TO GET FAIR
[01:51:04] AND EQUAL REPRESENTATION WITHIN CANADA.
[01:51:06] THE REFORM PARTY IS ONE EXAMPLE THAT MANY PEOPLE WILL REMEMBER.
[01:51:10] WE SENT THEM TO OTTAWA AS THE OFFICIAL OPPOSITION.
[01:51:14] AND EVEN THEY COULD NOT ACHIEVE
[01:51:17] WHAT WE WERE WANTING WHEN IT
[01:51:19] COMES TO THE SENATE BEING EQUAL
[01:51:22] ELECTED AND EFFECTIVE. >> Rosemary: WHAT WOULD AN INDEPENDENT ALBERTA LOOK LIKE
[01:51:26] FOR YOU, ANGELA?
[01:51:28] >> WELL, I MEAN, THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION.
[01:51:32] ONE, OUR POLITICIANS, THOSE WHO
[01:51:35] ARE MAKE THE RULES AND ENFORCING THEM WOULD BE A LOT CLOSER.
[01:51:38] YOU KNOW WHAT, MY COUNTY COUNCILLOR LIVES DOWN THE ROAD
[01:51:42] FROM ME. IF THEY DO SOMETHING I DON'T
[01:51:45] AGREE WITH, I CAN HAVE A
[01:51:49] CONVERSATION. MARK CARNEY DOESN'T CARE THAT WE EXIST.
[01:51:51] AND SO WE NEED -- IT'S JUST A
[01:51:53] PRINCIPLE OF GOOD GOVERNANCE IS THAT POLITICIANS THAT ARE CLOSE
[01:51:57] TO THE PEOPLE, GIVING AMONG THE
[01:52:01] -- LIVING AMONGST THE PEOPLE ARE MUCH MORE ACCOUNTABLE.
[01:52:04] AT THIS POINT AS ALBERTANS, WE
[01:52:12] >> Announc