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[00:00:31] well is the 10th day, yeah, that's it's the 10th day in the
[00:00:35] 10th month the year 2026
[00:00:44] week in its own right, the
[00:00:46] of high point of which was the yes, i'm so happy,
[00:00:50] i'm very happy this morning, why the NYC,
[00:00:54] of the abducted NYSA um, prospective
[00:00:58] call members, they have,
[00:01:00] a been released or they're back at home, they're back at home, full stop,
[00:01:04] yes, even though
[00:01:06] you know there's a conversation around how did they get out, um,
[00:01:11] of did was ransom paid,
[00:01:13] of um, but government said no ransom was paid, parents say
[00:01:16] ransom, it was paid fine, but they are back at
[00:01:20] home, that's the one that is very, very cheering and we're
[00:01:24] happy and we're hoping that
[00:01:26] um, we will not have to go to... this
[00:01:30] again, we are really hoping, yeah, um, i really
[00:01:34] don't know, there's there's an argument in my head, and
[00:01:38] that argument is uh, and i'm sorry, it's
[00:01:41] like some governors must really hate me right now, but we can't
[00:01:45] but talk about it, there's only so much as one
[00:01:49] um agency of government can do, hear this talk about uh,
[00:01:53] the federal government is in charge of security and all,
[00:01:57] a i agree, but i'm the ch charge
[00:02:00] of the security of my compound right, I
[00:02:04] have to make sure that the gate is locked when it's supposed to be locked, and the gate is not
[00:02:08] lock,
[00:02:08] it is the people in my house that have to be held
[00:02:10] responsible, so why everyone understands
[00:02:14] what the challenge is in the country is, what are the proactive
[00:02:17] action that the the house the land, the
[00:02:21] house owner or the land owner or the resident
[00:02:24] of the house is doing to ensure that there is
[00:02:26] security, I all security. or
[00:02:30] lack of it is local, and so I would want again want to
[00:02:34] appeal, particularly now that we are building to up
[00:02:37] towards state police, that
[00:02:40] of means that the authority for policing their individual
[00:02:44] of states will be will rest squarely on the shoulders of governors.
[00:02:48] By now, good thinking or well meaning governors
[00:02:52] or state governments should be thinking about
[00:02:56] the structures that will sustain that state police initiative, should we have to...
[00:03:00] wait for the law to be in place uh, i think that's
[00:03:03] why some
[00:03:05] of the state governments they have um, like
[00:03:08] of we have the amotek um in lagos state, i think is is
[00:03:11] called the neighborhood, there are levels, there are various
[00:03:15] me levels of security and as far as the
[00:03:19] constitution would allow for now, yes, but
[00:03:22] um, we we there are several of those initiatives, you know, legos
[00:03:26] has neighborhood watch,
[00:03:40] of the gaps, we haven't had any report about the states, the areas in which insecurity has
[00:03:43] infiltrated so to speak, we need to have an
[00:03:47] idea so that when eventually the constitution
[00:03:51] allows state governments to set up state
[00:03:54] police, there is a structure in place, you just legalize it, i will give the
[00:03:58] example of legos, in lagus and I see all the various
[00:04:02] caders of policing that Lagos already has for different
[00:04:06] different things, policing, transportation, policing, neighborhood watch and all
[00:04:10] those things, those are those are state
[00:04:12] of police structures in my opinion, maybe putting it
[00:04:15] loosely, what other, I
[00:04:17] of mean we know that his cano has his bar and all of
[00:04:20] of th, of what structures to states all the states themselves have,
[00:04:24] certainly they have role to play in terms of preparing ahead of time,
[00:04:28] another thing, another leg to that, sorry you mean is the
[00:04:32] collaboration among
[00:04:33] in states because the
[00:04:36] abducted call members happened along did not, it
[00:04:40] didn't happen from where they took off, it happened along
[00:04:44] of the line, what kind of collaboration is happening you
[00:04:47] know for you among the states or between the states to ensure that these
[00:04:51] things don't happen, we have heard stories, you are aware of stories
[00:04:55] where they
[00:04:56] of were chased away from northeast, they moved to the northwest, we're not hearing.
[00:05:00] much about those things anymore, why is it happening all of sudden
[00:05:02] again?
[00:05:04] of for me those are the issues, yeah, it's it's it's something that you
[00:05:07] know every level of government would have to look into, security is not
[00:05:11] me about um just... the federal government of course
[00:05:13] it will tell you that
[00:05:14] you know police you know is under the
[00:05:18] federal government you can't move anything
[00:05:20] said governor
[00:05:24] said um i'm chief security
[00:05:27] officer but i can't even control a fly for me you mean
[00:05:31] that's that for me for me that is political talk i just give
[00:05:35] the example simple example now in my
[00:05:38] compound back in the day there were no fences now
[00:05:42] we have fences for almost every compound, even your estate will have
[00:05:46] gates, will have fences and all those things, will the people, president of
[00:05:49] that estate or chairman the state say because the state
[00:05:53] government is not providing security that i can only do as much as i can,
[00:05:57] well they do as much as they can, and that is why people move into estates,
[00:06:01] they move into estate because they feel that there's a little more security, so
[00:06:05] the states should be the same, let's not overthink this thing,
[00:06:08] beg, it should be, it should be, but we are warming.
[00:06:12] up to what may be another strike um
[00:06:15] in uh Nigerian workers,
[00:06:19] well the i would say the take home is no longer even
[00:06:22] taking to to the bus stop, he's even taking you out the
[00:06:26] office, so I know we will be having
[00:06:30] some conversations around that as well, but um
[00:06:34] my own um issue of thoughts about
[00:06:38] what the NLC is doing is the conversation, first of all I've always had
[00:06:41] this... why is it that government does not
[00:06:45] communicate? and when i say communicate,
[00:06:48] they is sometimes mistaken to be, government is not
[00:06:52] giving out more information. let's
[00:06:54] be clear, and i've said this countless times, information is not
[00:06:57] communication, information is not communication, the fact that
[00:07:01] you're giving out information does not mean that you're communicating with the people
[00:07:05] that are involved in this matter, so the fact that government is given out information, for
[00:07:08] instance, look at the backlash or whatever
[00:07:12] it is. that the um the finance
[00:07:15] minister is getting now, good
[00:07:18] intention, put out there, some people are already calling it subsidy, some
[00:07:22] people are already calling it um political move and all those
[00:07:26] things today that you know uh people would make what of of
[00:07:30] whatever it is that they want to make of any situation so exact exactly so
[00:07:34] but they have given out that information this is what it is for
[00:07:37] the government and you know you can make
[00:07:40] out grateful to god for about the finance
[00:07:44] minister, even before he became finance minister, he that he will go anywhere to
[00:07:48] explain and explain and explain after the whole conversation, he
[00:07:52] still got on uh politics today to give some you know clarification
[00:07:56] about some these things and all and all of that is good, so but then I
[00:08:00] would also want to say that there are opportunities in this country, NLC
[00:08:04] has its job cut out, but it seems and I've always been
[00:08:07] challenged about this, it seems that the only time we hear about
[00:08:11] NLC is when we need more money and then I'll ask one
[00:08:15] question, has since I have
[00:08:19] been, once I was young, now I'm old, I do not
[00:08:23] know a time when more money solved the problem
[00:08:27] of cost of living, because the more your money
[00:08:30] increases, the more your needs increase, the more the prices increase,
[00:08:34] there was someone who was talking about, we will have that conversation,
[00:08:38] okay, okay,
[00:08:40] yes, we would have that conversation, something that
[00:08:43] you know all Nigerians are interested in uh whether you are
[00:08:47] in um formal work setting or formal informal
[00:08:51] because everything cascades into each
[00:08:55] other you know that if this happens here there's
[00:08:59] the riple effect on another side so it's something that
[00:09:02] um I guess that to be our first topic this morning uh
[00:09:06] our first topic is around this for matter so we want
[00:09:10] to um price modulation.
[00:09:15] of course the the minister
[00:09:17] has said what he said, yeah, so that's the first topic, death, price
[00:09:20] modulation or subsidy return, next we'll be talking about
[00:09:24] reforms, elections and nigeria's future, especially now
[00:09:27] that the we are looking at the 2027
[00:09:31] election, yes and the campaigns have
[00:09:34] started, yes, and we hear that the APC says they are flagging
[00:09:38] off October 24, everyone is getting up, everyone is... of
[00:09:42] course posters and banners all over the place, so that's our
[00:09:46] second topic, yes, and then of course we will not miss out on
[00:09:50] lifestyle, um, human skin and living
[00:09:53] identity, yes, we have to
[00:09:56] you know unpack that, yes, is is it about
[00:10:00] changing the skin or is it about, i hear that
[00:10:03] your skin reveals who you are, we find out about that one,
[00:10:07] and then they will also tell us about those who change their
[00:10:11] skin when the other that I don't want to say now before I'm sorping
[00:10:15] that and the artist the week is also our
[00:10:18] last topic this morning and you will find out who that is in
[00:10:22] the
[00:14:25] decode that music, we'll talk about that one later, but it
[00:14:29] sounds very you notice that that lady received
[00:14:32] alert, sometimes those alerts might be
[00:14:36] um, some the things that can affect that alert is what we are talking about first this
[00:14:40] morning, minister of finance and coordinating minister the
[00:14:42] economy um taiw idi said
[00:14:46] returning to a blanket petrol subsidy could push pump
[00:14:50] prices to at least 2ira per liter and weaken the
[00:14:54] na going as high as 3 3ira per
[00:14:58] dollar while defending new relief interventions as
[00:15:01] targeted price modulation rather than subsidy
[00:15:05] comeback um of
[00:15:07] course there has been a lot
[00:15:09] of um ping pong back and forth
[00:15:13] about some people feel oh it's the election time let's throwing
[00:15:17] something that the people would follow oters feel that no it
[00:15:21] is really something that is biting nigerians and absolutely.
[00:15:25] so what is it uh from should i say the
[00:15:29] w from the lived experience perspective as opposed to the political
[00:15:33] or whatever perspective whatever other perspective there is
[00:15:37] we have. with us Dr. Genga ady who is president
[00:15:40] economic summit, he is a lawyer and a charter accountant, he is joining
[00:15:44] us from our Abuja studio, good morning and thank you for joining us this morning
[00:15:47] sir, good morning, it's a
[00:15:51] pleasure to be here again today, thank you sir, we also have
[00:15:55] uh joe mwakwe who is petroleum
[00:15:59] engineer uh his also joined us this morning, thank you
[00:16:03] so much for joining us sir, thank
[00:16:07] you
[00:16:07] uh pleased to be here, yeah, let's uh begin with you
[00:16:11] uh uh, Mr. Wakwe, what do you make
[00:16:15] of this? I mean, sometimes, I mean, having worked with uh, a
[00:16:19] minister in the petroleum sector before, you would have an idea
[00:16:23] of why some these um initiatives come out,
[00:16:27] the readings that come with it, whether or not the communication
[00:16:31] of it the initiative is enough, what do you make of first the
[00:16:35] initiative and then the feedback that?
[00:16:37] has been coming as result of
[00:16:39] it. Okay,
[00:16:42] um, I will start by saying that um, the primary
[00:16:46] purpose of government is the welfare the people,
[00:16:49] so so I'm not surprised that this
[00:16:53] conversation has come, these are very difficult
[00:16:56] times, um, these are external
[00:17:00] shocks to the market and seeing the impact on
[00:17:03] consumers, so the government is, if you will rightly.
[00:17:08] looking at how to minimize the pain of this
[00:17:11] shock
[00:17:12] on on the populist, so it's not
[00:17:15] is not out of order for
[00:17:19] the government to want to come up with something
[00:17:23] to help reduce the the impact of this external shock
[00:17:26] uh on not just the consuming public but the economy as
[00:17:30] well, because this has much wider implications, so from
[00:17:34] that perspective, I'm not surprised - realize that
[00:17:38] this is a political season, so these conversations are
[00:17:41] difficult to separate from the political temperature in the
[00:17:45] country, so that that's what complicates it, so it's not just purely
[00:17:49] economic or policy conversation anymore,
[00:17:53] it's it's more far reaching than that, so i
[00:17:57] surprised, yeah, should we have this conversation,
[00:18:01] yes, because people's welfare
[00:18:04] and are involved, well It's a
[00:18:07] little tricky uh Mr. Because when we look at the
[00:18:11] difference that's that this uh intervention of
[00:18:15] governments is um what it
[00:18:19] amounts to is pretty much there are those who say it's just
[00:18:22] pitans um in some areas right now we understand fiel is
[00:18:26] selling for something in the region of 1500 in
[00:18:30] Lagos is selling for a little close to
[00:18:33] 14 as at yesterday uh my my
[00:18:36] colleagues. said that the fuel was selling for something in the region of
[00:18:40] 1,400 and the the minister is suggesting that
[00:18:44] the price will be peged at
[00:18:45] 1,350 um
[00:18:49] so of what significance would that be anyway let
[00:18:53] ask um dr that question of what significance do
[00:18:57] you see this intervention being because those
[00:19:00] who say it's just so marginal it's
[00:19:04] almost unlikely to affect the price of anything in
[00:19:08] the market?
[00:19:11] okay, um, before we can go into that
[00:19:15] conversation, we need to lay foundation, and you know
[00:19:19] in law, the judge will not listen to you when you are presenting an
[00:19:23] evidence without foundation. um,
[00:19:27] there are two foundation that i would like to lay, one is to
[00:19:31] say that um, there is no government anywhere in
[00:19:35] the world that will be happy. that they have a
[00:19:38] policy that inflict pains on the
[00:19:41] citizen, no government, and I don't think there is any
[00:19:45] father that we do that, and I have empirical evidence in
[00:19:49] Daniel chapter 6, darius was
[00:19:52] persuaded uh to make a law,
[00:19:56] and he didn't know uh that Daniel
[00:20:00] will fall victim of it, and then they came to him and said, this
[00:20:04] guy pray to somebody within 30 days said nobody should pray to
[00:20:08] anybody except Darius and so when they
[00:20:11] reported that somebody has done something said yes, I remember signing
[00:20:15] the law, so when they told him he was Daniel, and this was the
[00:20:19] guy he wanted to put in charge the whole province,
[00:20:23] so the 120 princes and two other president gathered
[00:20:27] against him, the king was so displaced and he made
[00:20:31] all effort to see how to save Daniel, they insisted,
[00:20:34] no, this is your law, That
[00:20:38] night the king could not eat, he was fasting, and Daniel
[00:20:42] was thrown into the lion's dend, early in the morning, the
[00:20:45] king was the first person to go to the lions then to start.
[00:20:50] calling Daniel out, as the Lord your God saved
[00:20:54] you, and finally Daniel came and the man was happy, and he called all the
[00:20:58] people that accused him and they were thrown into the dead, and
[00:21:02] the lions crushed their bones. now that foundation
[00:21:05] is to say that what the government has done two
[00:21:09] days ago, is clear indication that the
[00:21:13] government is aware that life is difficult for Nigerians
[00:21:17] and I do not think that... mover of
[00:21:20] subsidy and floating of den was
[00:21:24] intended by the government to make people suffer or
[00:21:27] poor, so i've established that, so we are not
[00:21:31] to criticize government pers, but to now find
[00:21:35] solution to our problem, the second
[00:21:38] foundation is yorub proverb and
[00:21:42] i'll try to translate and he says
[00:21:46] that eni to wa nidiosan ko god mu ki.
[00:21:51] that is, he that dwell under the orange tree must drink
[00:21:55] and enjoy sweet orange, the second proverb
[00:21:59] says osoro, tiye osoro, ni kii
[00:22:02] jẹ ki ọmọ te lo raso wo lọjọ ọdun, it
[00:22:06] simply means that your own is not difficult, don't worry, don't worry, i will attend to
[00:22:10] your case, that's why the daughter or son of a tailor
[00:22:14] does not have clot to wear a festive day, so
[00:22:18] that is to the government. Now if you now go back to the
[00:22:21] effect of this policy,
[00:22:25] I can tell you um selective
[00:22:29] discount is not likely to work for
[00:22:33] us, because you say commercial vehicle
[00:22:36] drivers, how are we going to determine that this
[00:22:40] guy that is buying petrol is going to go back to the
[00:22:44] motor park to convey passengers at reduced
[00:22:47] price, how are we going to... monitor, for example, i'm
[00:22:51] from state, are you going to monitor
[00:22:54] somebody who purchase 100 lit at
[00:22:58] NNPC that is not the
[00:23:01] same person that has gone to NNPC at Shagamu to purchase
[00:23:05] another 100 liters and it's not the same that has gone to
[00:23:09] legos express way and then arbitrate comes in,
[00:23:13] so all private vehicle owners, you and I, who do not have
[00:23:17] access to 1,350, may now down
[00:23:20] somewhere and begin to purchase at
[00:23:23] 1,370 from this transporter so to
[00:23:26] say and there will be lot of cues most them
[00:23:29] so will not be at the motor park anymore and when that
[00:23:33] happens rather than achieve the reduce
[00:23:36] transport cost
[00:23:37] the price will increase because they now begin to trade
[00:23:41] in this uh premium motor spirit so what mechanism do
[00:23:45] we have to know that io is the same
[00:23:49] driver. that has purchased at NNPC
[00:23:53] nabe okuta that has appear at shagam and we say no no go back
[00:23:56] do we have data to capture that so these are the issues
[00:24:00] and so the price modulation was
[00:24:04] not that they say 350 but it's a ceiling
[00:24:08] saying that at NNPC station it should not go
[00:24:12] beyond this but
[00:24:16] uh maybe
[00:24:17] you know we're just trying introductory aspect of this,
[00:24:21] then i will explain what happened with the committee that was
[00:24:24] set up in 1992 on premium
[00:24:28] motor spirit pricing which we are looking
[00:24:32] at import parity pricing method
[00:24:35] and production cost pricing method and i
[00:24:39] think we can achieve it if we have
[00:24:43] people and let me say finally before i
[00:24:46] stop from from my conversation with the people
[00:24:51] "I think Nigerians will prefer
[00:24:54] to have thousands of buses that
[00:24:58] can take 52 passengers at the same time
[00:25:02] around the country, all the states in the
[00:25:05] federation and the federal capital territory. Take a
[00:25:09] look at it, if you
[00:25:11] have a bus that can
[00:25:15] take 52 passengers, it goes to and throw, that's
[00:25:18] 104." if it does uh
[00:25:22] 10 times a day that's
[00:25:24] 140 now imagine you
[00:25:28] now have millions of buses and then we have different
[00:25:32] painting for those buses and we put a price tag
[00:25:35] that this bus if you are moving from abuja to legos
[00:25:39] this is the amount you're going to get now other commercial vehicle owners will
[00:25:43] drop their prices yes we'll come back to some the ideas that you have
[00:25:47] that can move
[00:25:49] you know this conversation. forward and
[00:25:51] you know interesting analogy about the bible and all of
[00:25:55] that that you said, but let me go to uh Mr.
[00:25:57] Wakwe, what brought us here is
[00:26:01] about uh whether we should... return for your subsidy or
[00:26:04] not? what is your own take bearing in
[00:26:08] mind all that has happened so far since um you
[00:26:12] know f was uh subsidy was removed and
[00:26:15] Nigerians have had to pay lot more for the uh
[00:26:19] price of
[00:26:20] petrol?
[00:26:24] yeah
[00:26:25] I mean the the this conversation subsidy is almost a
[00:26:28] a bad word right now uh my my position has been that
[00:26:33] subsidies are not bad in themselves, but they have to be
[00:26:36] properly designed and implemented.
[00:26:40] um, if you have any sector or subsector that is
[00:26:43] challenged, that is struggling, uh, government
[00:26:47] can take a position that, oh, we need to, we need
[00:26:51] to help this sector get back its feet, and one way to
[00:26:55] do it is by subsidizing, you call it incentive, you call it some whatever word,
[00:26:59] intervention, whatever word you want to use, uh, it is
[00:27:02] appropriate to do that, so uh,
[00:27:05] subsidies themselves, I mean,
[00:27:07] for me, I don't, I don't sh away from using the word, are we at the point
[00:27:11] where some intervention from government is necessary?
[00:27:14] yes, uh, and I say this because we seem to focus
[00:27:18] so much on the transportation fields,
[00:27:21] right? um, what about manufacturing, how much of our
[00:27:25] manufacturing base is diesel fire today, are we worried
[00:27:29] about the cost of diesel and what implication? that
[00:27:33] has for the prices of end products that
[00:27:36] comes out of those factories, are we worried about what
[00:27:40] that does for our national productivity and output,
[00:27:44] so I think we are the point, now remember this is an
[00:27:48] external shock, so it is appropriate for the government
[00:27:52] to interven, however he wants to do it, but like I
[00:27:56] keep saying all interventions or subsidies must be
[00:27:59] targeted, in other words they must address that. specific
[00:28:03] need of that sector, they must have an exit ramp,
[00:28:06] clearly preferably automatic, something that
[00:28:09] enables uh, this this need to be
[00:28:13] sunset without so much hazzles and they
[00:28:17] they need to be monitored and implemented approp, so those are
[00:28:21] for me critical elements, i will get back to the
[00:28:24] issue of had lot of conversations
[00:28:28] around whether or not we are the point where we need to have
[00:28:32] some of subsidy - i had argued publicly
[00:28:35] that certainly we need subsidies, we need to look at the diesel market
[00:28:39] and see what we can do pricing. gladly is coming
[00:28:43] down, i understand, but these are the
[00:28:46] issues. i know pms is very
[00:28:49] key, central to our lives and that's why it's so
[00:28:53] topical, but again at 1004,
[00:28:57] 1005, what can we do to reduce
[00:29:00] that? what can government do? and there are few knobs
[00:29:04] that can be done, maybe along the line as we go through,
[00:29:08] you
[00:29:08] can you can just mention one or two them right now, just so that you can be
[00:29:12] part of this uh conversation now, okay, i believe
[00:29:16] that are um today we we produce locally and we
[00:29:20] import the difference, so there are few
[00:29:23] statutory charges, labies that government
[00:29:27] agencies uh take uh in that
[00:29:31] value chain that that we can't look as a government and say, okay, we
[00:29:34] wave this temporarily for a period, right? uh, that will help
[00:29:38] reduce the pump price. ultimately. so
[00:29:42] those are some the enoughs i think they can turn. you
[00:29:46] know, public transportation mass
[00:29:49] transportation is obviously another k, i think that
[00:29:52] government can can turn to minimize, not necessarily the pump
[00:29:56] price, but the ease of moving around for
[00:29:58] Nigerians.
[00:30:00] um, mass transit systems are important. and the uh
[00:30:04] with CNG buses and all that, I think government could have doubled
[00:30:08] down uh on that and made sure that at least in
[00:30:11] interstate travel uh we can we can face that in
[00:30:15] very quickly to minimize the the impact these
[00:30:19] high uh prices of petrol so those are some the things
[00:30:23] and few more notes can be turned um the
[00:30:27] what has been proposed and I need to make this uh point I
[00:30:30] looked at the yesterday I listen to the minister of
[00:30:34] uh finance um, the first thing that I call to me is this
[00:30:38] is not really the NPC had done this 66 n
[00:30:42] thing on independence day, so it was something that I'm
[00:30:46] aware that they have done, it was just to celebrate
[00:30:50] the so what I hear now is okay we are spending it for a month the whole of October
[00:30:53] great, but it is not material, it is
[00:30:57] not material and the other issue.