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[00:00:11] of
[00:00:17] of Hello and welcome, this
[00:00:21] is hardcopy on channel's television, the program that brings you
[00:00:25] frank conversations with the people in the news. I am Bukola
[00:00:28] Coka, standing in for your regular anchor, kyla
[00:00:32] mgwa. last week we brought to you a special independence
[00:00:36] interview edition with pro-democracy
[00:00:39] activist drawing our
[00:00:42] conversation from renewed calls for national
[00:00:45] conversation among Nigeria's constituent ethnic
[00:00:49] nationalities. the lawyer and octogenarian
[00:00:53] argued vehemently that the military should also take
[00:00:56] responsibility for Nigeria's defective 99. 99
[00:01:00] constitution, which according to him, is the bin
[00:01:05] of of the country's underdevelopment. He points specifically to the centralized system
[00:01:09] of the army, which, according to him, continues to ruin
[00:01:12] us. expressed little hopes
[00:01:16] in the national assembly's ongoing constitution
[00:01:20] review exercise, saying that the
[00:01:23] of parliament cannot work against the same constitution that it swore
[00:01:27] to protect. recall also that The lawyer
[00:01:30] appeared to deflect on leads to assessing the current
[00:01:34] 10th assembly,
[00:01:36] of describing my poser on public criticisms
[00:01:39] of the current parliament as subjective, but part
[00:01:43] two of my interview with him is where the conversation gets even
[00:01:46] tougher. Based on his middle ground position on the
[00:01:50] national assembly's ongoing
[00:01:53] of constitution review, I recall the APC's L-Rafai
[00:01:57] of led Constitutional Reforms Committee. a subject that
[00:02:01] of it campaigned on in 2015. I
[00:02:03] asked why he thinks the current APC
[00:02:07] government appears to have forgotten totally about its
[00:02:11] promise of restructuring. I also found space
[00:02:14] amid the interview to ask him to clarify
[00:02:18] of what many may consider one
[00:02:19] of the unresolved issues around the June 12,
[00:02:23] 1993 presidential elections. Here's how he
[00:02:27] answers in part two.
[00:02:35] of of
[00:02:40] The framework
[00:02:42] of of the 1996 constitution does not, they what they're doing will be rebelling against what
[00:02:46] we saw and
[00:02:49] oath so they sought an oath to take over membership
[00:02:53] after they were so
[00:02:54] in call elected and they saw oath of alligance to the so-called
[00:02:57] of 199 constitution you see the
[00:02:59] of aberation. so they can't do anything now to to confront that, but there's a
[00:03:03] constitution amendment process that has begone already by the way,
[00:03:06] of which also uh supports, this
[00:03:10] agitation, if you listen to the zonal hearings of few months
[00:03:14] of ago, some uh southeasterners and asking for
[00:03:18] states to be created in the southeast as well,
[00:03:22] so it it also supports the point that has been made
[00:03:26] time and again that this 1999 constitution is the greatest misses.
[00:03:30] that Nigeria ever embarked upon since 1914,
[00:03:34] so it's not true, that again is not true, it's not true, it's the
[00:03:38] same thing that happened to the 1979 constitution, it's the same thing that happened to the
[00:03:41] 199
[00:03:42] of constitution, as if you want to if you care to know is
[00:03:45] the same thing,
[00:03:46] of you see we had about
[00:03:48] of four five uh after the when
[00:03:52] the the army struck in 1966 the first
[00:03:55] time they spent 13 years
[00:03:57] and they handed over
[00:04:01] government to
[00:04:02] of civilians in 1979 and that was the first time they said they were doing
[00:04:08] of constitution because the army and
[00:04:11] in picked significant members
[00:04:14] of the body that produce the drafts
[00:04:18] and when they submitted it to aubanj
[00:04:20] of government government inserted quite a
[00:04:23] number or things never
[00:04:25] discussed into that
[00:04:29] that thing
[00:04:29] they eventually
[00:04:29] 1979 constitution
[00:04:33] particularly line use act inside it without
[00:04:36] any references any anybody people and you
[00:04:40] what
[00:04:40] that thing that cost? it
[00:04:44] of lable the military oligarch to be able to acquire landed
[00:04:48] property all over
[00:04:50] the the country at no expense and then the civilians took over from
[00:04:53] them have been benefited from it so that the kind of thing that happened so it was not
[00:04:57] an all inc.
[00:05:03] that is why we say that so the military should also take
[00:05:06] responsibility for it the
[00:05:11] of greatest uh
[00:05:15] the greatest assaulters of
[00:05:18] our existence, since they took over
[00:05:21] power
[00:05:23] and suspended and
[00:05:26] abrogated that negotiated federal constitution,
[00:05:30] what he did was to say the articles of incorporation,
[00:05:34] the the articles of our existence negotiated by by
[00:05:37] leaders w suspended ordinarily, everybody to go
[00:05:41] back to his different. areas the fact that that didn't
[00:05:44] happen does not make it right, the fact that the they keep the
[00:05:48] kept on and when we were trying to find out of
[00:05:51] it, four years thereafter they knock their doors
[00:05:55] again and coral everybody into prison and said
[00:05:59] everybody was discredited, discredited by who, by
[00:06:02] buari, who was
[00:06:05] he? look, i have been asking the
[00:06:08] question, is
[00:06:10] there any profession in
[00:06:11] the in the world? that not enjoying
[00:06:15] people to learn to practice in
[00:06:19] before because they become experts, can the military ask
[00:06:22] a carpenter to go and drive an arm
[00:06:26] car? i've never done that
[00:06:30] as it occur that you as tail to go and do
[00:06:34] surgery upon human soul every
[00:06:38] profession is training, tutage,
[00:06:41] appretisship. and train and before you matured, but
[00:06:45] the Nigeria Army for their own
[00:06:49] greed even gotten
[00:06:51] against was always in the habit of
[00:06:55] making announcement discredited politicians and then they took
[00:06:59] over and they made mess us up, subverted our nation
[00:07:02] existence, stanted our growth and development, and this is where we are,
[00:07:06] they passed Nigeria among themselves and this we have not been able to get out
[00:07:10] of it, you know my sympathy.
[00:07:16] with the man who is on the
[00:07:17] throne
[00:07:22] now, is that as much as he would like to do certain things,
[00:07:26] critical
[00:07:29] steps, is perifically curtailed because
[00:07:33] of what he had come to meet in the
[00:07:35] office, for
[00:07:38] example, how do
[00:07:40] you or?
[00:07:43] understand the current security
[00:07:47] architecture when i try to
[00:07:50] ask, i was shocked to find
[00:07:54] out again through the
[00:07:58] government since 19
[00:08:00] 60 3 64 those have been
[00:08:04] at the command post a security and
[00:08:07] intelligence unit, it
[00:08:10] was as... fted upon us by the british colonial
[00:08:14] masters favoring a particular session of nigeria
[00:08:18] and those are people those people are being in control
[00:08:21] totally can do
[00:08:25] as much as he could but
[00:08:27] the circumstance the moment if you want to remain office
[00:08:30] he has to be wise upstairs
[00:08:34] and that in spite of all
[00:08:36] that is is
[00:08:39] going try or people want "who are
[00:08:43] going
[00:08:44] to stay a coup against him? that
[00:08:46] caled whatever he has wanted to do, the
[00:08:50] same thing that happens to security and intelligence happens to the to the
[00:08:54] level the of economy, you can abuse him, you can
[00:08:58] say it's not performing, but i say to you straight
[00:09:01] forward, you cannot
[00:09:04] erase the
[00:09:07] sumting
[00:09:08] negative -
[00:09:12] economic socio economic policies the last 40
[00:09:16] something years within the years, you asking him to do
[00:09:20] magic, he's not a magician, we'll get to the matter of his
[00:09:23] performance uh a moment, but the summary of what you're saying if I'm getting
[00:09:27] you is that um the
[00:09:30] constitution review that has gone on in the last couple of months
[00:09:34] until this time is waste of time, it is
[00:09:38] they cannot go go to the south is that are seeking six states.
[00:09:43] nation seeking nation, the people seeking state, those
[00:09:47] seeking an ibadon state can go and set aside their dreams.
[00:09:51] do not, do not, do not believe
[00:09:52] that
[00:09:56] anything can happen to the to the to the
[00:09:59] request, come to think of it, not under this
[00:10:03] national assembly, no, not not,
[00:10:05] not is under
[00:10:06] the this current constitution is the thing, it's not the national
[00:10:10] assembly itself, i'm talking to you to the... realize that the constitution with the
[00:10:13] saw to does not permit for what they are doing, but the the
[00:10:17] APC government in 2014 campaign on the promise
[00:10:21] of restructuring, which is at the heart the matter and in fact, in
[00:10:25] 2018 appointed the former governor of uh
[00:10:29] kaduna state Nasir Urfai to lead a committee to emback
[00:10:33] on restructuring uh of the
[00:10:36] country and we know what happened to that document
[00:10:39] uh fears of you know what would
[00:10:42] happen from different groups who were agitating against it
[00:10:46] at the time according to the former governor led the APC
[00:10:49] government to set it aside now let's assume that that was
[00:10:53] under the former administration. this current
[00:10:57] government which sold a former president late mohammed
[00:11:01] sold to nigerians has not said a word
[00:11:04] about committing to restructuring unless i have missed it
[00:11:08] so what happened my my
[00:11:12] understanding i may be
[00:11:15] wrong but my
[00:11:17] understanding that
[00:11:21] this first time had been used.
[00:11:25] to build up few
[00:11:29] critical apparatus that can
[00:11:32] aid
[00:11:36] the
[00:11:42] desire to look
[00:11:45] into
[00:11:49] the national organic structure at
[00:11:53] some other time. for example,
[00:11:56] what i mean is
[00:11:57] this
[00:12:01] president like all others sw on
[00:12:05] oath sw on of
[00:12:09] allegiance to this decree
[00:12:12] called constitution, he cannot appropriate and
[00:12:16] reputate under it, he cannot
[00:12:20] do anything spoken like a true lawyer, of
[00:12:23] course that the matter. and associate the
[00:12:26] president, whether you, you see, I cannot
[00:12:29] deny my my relationship with the president, I cannot
[00:12:33] deny that, and I to
[00:12:36] tomorrow
[00:12:37] I have my highest regard and respect for him, the fact that has
[00:12:41] taken of this the challenge, I must say
[00:12:45] again and again, this is the first person was not
[00:12:48] sponsored by military kaba
[00:12:52] or civilian cabal to the presidency. God brought him into
[00:12:56] office because in spite the fact that he spent his
[00:12:59] fortune, he spent his connection, he spent his reputation to
[00:13:03] bring the APC government into place when it was
[00:13:07] wanting to run, the
[00:13:11] system he created,
[00:13:13] he help creat was against him
[00:13:16] totally, the president he
[00:13:19] wanted, was angry for
[00:13:22] Lawan who was the president the senate.
[00:13:26] totally opposed to b and everything was done
[00:13:30] to surv his emergence,
[00:13:33] so nobody can come to us and tell us that he put
[00:13:37] b in office. let's get to the civic space
[00:13:41] um and try to explore it as much as we can now,
[00:13:45] and this is important because of your experience,
[00:13:48] robust one at
[00:13:54] years. after Nigeria's democracy, the
[00:13:58] democracy as is currently constituted continues to
[00:14:01] exclude young people, and this
[00:14:05] administration is not removed from it, the last administration certainly is
[00:14:09] not removed from it. I recall the hashtag
[00:14:12] #sars protest the year 2020 under the former government, even
[00:14:16] the hashtag #bad governance protest under
[00:14:20] this current administration from about two years ago, we recall the
[00:14:24] treatment. of protesters, what are your thoughts on the
[00:14:28] continuous exclusion of young people
[00:14:31] and the lack the healthy civic space that
[00:14:35] we seem to have?
[00:14:39] i do not want to engage in
[00:14:42] subjective response because the
[00:14:45] following:
[00:14:49] if it is president that i know and
[00:14:53] look at. the configuration of his ministerial
[00:14:57] appointment, another key appointment that
[00:15:01] has made, i believe that the significant majority of those
[00:15:04] appointment have been to the youth, quite a
[00:15:08] significant number them have been to the youth, i've been for the
[00:15:11] youth, do not believe that is
[00:15:14] the type that we screwed the youth taking their
[00:15:17] chances, i pleed with
[00:15:20] them to be
[00:15:23] unrelenting, you don't get
[00:15:27] to squeeze
[00:15:30] orange yeah easily the ones in
[00:15:33] power will never easily uh
[00:15:37] grant you the grace
[00:15:41] of being able to pass
[00:15:45] them into doing what they don't want to do, but with your
[00:15:48] persistance, Nigeria like other
[00:15:51] places are now part the
[00:15:54] global setting, any small thing that anybody
[00:15:58] does now uh against this young people will
[00:16:02] become viral and to have negative impact on the
[00:16:06] people in government. "the people in government must must alway be conscious of
[00:16:10] that. i believe that the circumstances we
[00:16:13] find ourselves, the young people, they need to
[00:16:17] have some
[00:16:20] understanding, rary with
[00:16:24] some more matured
[00:16:28] people who have gone through this terrain before. for
[00:16:31] example, i was not
[00:16:35] happy that..."
[00:16:39] um some people try to utilize the advantage the
[00:16:43] youth for their own political
[00:16:46] benefit in this bad governance
[00:16:50] kind of a thing that they are talking about the leadership of
[00:16:54] that organization was a
[00:16:57] presidential candidate so we had
[00:17:01] a personal reason for
[00:17:04] leading the young people. into confrontation with the
[00:17:08] system, where you have that kind of
[00:17:11] setting, you cannot expect the government the day in
[00:17:14] power to sleep and not take
[00:17:18] action.
[00:17:25] we all see the world differently, but our time
[00:17:28] zones, politics, diplomacy,
[00:17:32] and sometimes conflict all converge in one
[00:17:35] place on the world today. "the world
[00:17:39] today brings you those headlines from around the world with
[00:17:42] in-depth discussions that help you understand the world
[00:17:46] we live in. don't be in the dark. catch us weekdays
[00:17:50] at 5:30 p.m. only on channels
[00:17:53] television.
[00:18:01] welcome back, it's hard copy on channels television and we're
[00:18:05] reviewing the progress and is of our
[00:18:08] nation as relates to subjects of
[00:18:12] restructuring and other related topics.
[00:18:15] my guest is ayokun, secretary
[00:18:19] general the national democratic
[00:18:30] your argument that this administration is friendly because of appointments
[00:18:34] of young persons into that's one part of it. that's
[00:18:38] that's one cabinet but but that's convenient, they could
[00:18:42] have appointed uh patrons the government, food soldiers will help
[00:18:46] them win election, we're talking about a broader
[00:18:49] inclusion of young persons, and to that I say, I ask
[00:18:53] sir, is this administration tolerant of
[00:18:56] descent by the pattern of treatment of
[00:18:59] young persons during protest against what they consider to
[00:19:03] be bad governance? are you asking now to speak for the government? I won't.
[00:19:08] "I won't, I won't speak for the government, the government should be able to respond to
[00:19:12] that. I'm asking you to respond to that, I'm sure you have young persons as
[00:19:16] grandchildren, so you should be concerned as well, I'm concerned
[00:19:19] that
[00:19:23] most young people when they come to me and
[00:19:27] I talk to them, I've been campaigning for more than 10 years now
[00:19:31] that we are leaving the stage for them, it is their own
[00:19:34] responsibility now uh to come. to accept themselves
[00:19:38] and win for themselves
[00:19:41] capacity in the
[00:19:43] political scheme. what
[00:19:46] i must i mean put before the
[00:19:50] audience is this:
[00:19:53] activism, either political, civil rights and the
[00:19:57] les are not for pleasure lovers and
[00:20:01] seekers, you must understand
[00:20:04] that activism carries along with
[00:20:07] with it some questions
[00:20:11] of
[00:20:14] use of government coassive
[00:20:18] agency to prevent you from being
[00:20:21] able to run the system against the people in
[00:20:25] power but what i find is that most of our young people
[00:20:29] they start saying ah we cannot go
[00:20:33] ahead and put -
[00:20:36] allow to use our head to break the coconut,
[00:20:40] yeah, if you if you get leaders, we will
[00:20:44] follow them, they cannot lead, who will now
[00:20:48] lead? and i when i when i
[00:20:51] return from 24 calendar months the
[00:20:55] jail of abacha and people are coming
[00:20:59] to us,
[00:21:01] ah leader, let's
[00:21:05] have something for us to be able to go and fight the battle
[00:21:08] yeah,
[00:21:12] when they went to senator abraham also and it
[00:21:15] was the old man was converting with me and i said to him you must understand who
[00:21:19] you are. you are leading the Europa race, not any other
[00:21:23] group, yeah, it can happen
[00:21:27] before that ethnic nationalities that when they
[00:21:30] say either zobun zobu or they
[00:21:33] say
[00:21:39] um, you have a large number of people to follow them
[00:21:43] eurobland, if e leader no matter how
[00:21:46] popular he is ask people. to come
[00:21:50] out today
[00:21:51] to to go and demonstrate and he has about 5,000 along with him,
[00:21:54] if the police uh shoot that one or
[00:21:57] two tomorrow, maybe we have about
[00:22:00] 2,500 that you follow him, if you ask
[00:22:04] them again to come out, the th time they ask him, why is his own
[00:22:08] child among us, that's
[00:22:12] the nature the thing, so that say
[00:22:15] activism is not for pleasure
[00:22:19] lovers. and phone seekers, we have had endure
[00:22:23] a lot of pain, so you would rather they don't endure the kind of
[00:22:26] incarceration that you end, let them, they want to win them, if they want to
[00:22:30] win themselves, win for themselves, liberty, then they should be
[00:22:34] base
[00:22:44] has to do with the tolerance of this government
[00:22:49] for you, I'm not
[00:22:54] you to take us down memory lane now, and there's a question I've always
[00:22:57] wanted to ask you sir, and it has to do with June 12,
[00:23:01] okay, and um, there there has been some
[00:23:04] unresolved issues or if you like, question
[00:23:08] mark hanging around what would have been a release
[00:23:11] of
[00:23:13] uh uh, and some have
[00:23:17] said, I've quoted, major general Ishay
[00:23:21] Abami, Anthony Adefu, saying that some
[00:23:25] persons of Nadeko betrayed Abiola that they prioritized
[00:23:28] transitional uh, you
[00:23:31] know, transitional arrangements
[00:23:35] over the unconditional release of
[00:23:38] Bashorem, help us with some
[00:23:42] clarity, what exactly happened, who were those that betrayed Abiola,
[00:23:46] if indeed there was a betrayal, there was no betray that as far as I know,
[00:23:50] and the people, the two people you
[00:23:51] mentioned,
[00:23:54] are
[00:23:58] very
[00:24:00] -
[00:24:06] they are preposterous
[00:24:08] characters,
[00:24:12] very unsuitable to make
[00:24:15] such categorical statements which was
[00:24:19] unfounded.
[00:24:26] making a lot of money out of us when we were fighting the
[00:24:30] battle he was total he
[00:24:32] was very very close confident
[00:24:36] the
[00:24:36] nadia and
[00:24:40] that was why he was derobbed in
[00:24:42] house after b was
[00:24:45] killed he was turned to turn
[00:24:49] naked.
[00:24:53] because they knew that he was in with the
[00:24:57] military oligarchy all the time as he was taking from the
[00:25:00] central was taken
[00:25:01] from
[00:25:06] wanted to overthrow
[00:25:08] jsani he wants
[00:25:12] to to be head of state too so they are not in opposition to be making
[00:25:16] this -
[00:25:20] verificable statements, what i
[00:25:24] knew, which really asked this, the
[00:25:28] central orbit of nadeko was
[00:25:32] this,
[00:25:36] there were
[00:25:38] efforts to give
[00:25:41] conditions, some conditions which
[00:25:45] was regarded by number of
[00:25:49] political. and our lawyers to be
[00:25:52] unbefitting for
[00:25:54] ab release and when
[00:25:58] the thing was taken to
[00:26:00] said he could not surrender his...
[00:26:02] mandate to the military
[00:26:06] government while he was in detention, they wanted
[00:26:10] him to
[00:26:11] be able to take a decision, he should be
[00:26:13] released, then consulting with
[00:26:17] his own
[00:26:20] colleagues
[00:26:26] take a decision, so it was not because any of
[00:26:29] us or anybody in the harchy of...
[00:26:34] paritize so call transition kind of
[00:26:37] nonsense
[00:26:39] we didn't look that kind of transition thing that
[00:26:41] organized was the most dubious one very
[00:26:45] very very godly and you know what he
[00:26:49] did shka
[00:26:51] was really not going to
[00:26:55] have that kind of a chance i just say to
[00:26:59] people again that wanted it
[00:27:08] he may not be able to
[00:27:10] well that control again eventually give it to a man
[00:27:14] was a chairman of a
[00:27:17] multinational organization called aaneka and we
[00:27:21] kept saying you can only be
[00:27:25] head of state of nigeria on two
[00:27:28] conditions either you won an election or stay
[00:27:32] a coup to get there, neither of
[00:27:36] this did you follow, so you are not an
[00:27:39] elected, you are not not
[00:27:43] illegal head of state, stop going to councel of state
[00:27:46] meeting, he never
[00:27:50] listened, so did
[00:27:52] the long and short of that, as I said to you, is that so he wanted a piece
[00:27:56] the pie as well, that's all, that's all, so there was there was no betrayal,
[00:28:00] no betray, you didn't betray No,
[00:28:03] no, we were the one suffer the
[00:28:06] bloods. is
[00:28:10] the convener of coalition of democratic reforms,
[00:28:14] secretary general, former secretary general of afry,
[00:28:18] and not forgetting the general secretary the national democratic
[00:28:30] of use him all you want, but
[00:28:34] you cannot erase the summer salting socio-economic
[00:28:37] policies the last 40 something years within the
[00:28:41] years. Is it a statement of support from a long time political
[00:28:45] associate or foot for thought for all stakeholders in the
[00:28:49] Nigerian project? You decide as you continue the
[00:28:53] conversation online. Join me again same time next
[00:28:57] week when I bring you another interesting edition the
[00:29:00] program, hardcopy. Thank you for watching, I am
[00:29:04] Bukola Coga, bye for
[00:29:06] now.
[00:30:16] the