CRONICA — broadcast
20260911 163000 UTC
411 transcript segments
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[00:00:02] Well, more normal messages and watch whose side you
[00:00:15] popular, the neighborhoods and so on became indebted
[00:00:19] in the informal market, no, the informal indebtedness is terrible Ramiro,
[00:00:23] how do they stop the issue of neighborhood loan sharks, for
[00:00:27] example?
[00:00:30] It's tremendous, it's tremendous, and the embargo pest generally becomes a
[00:00:34] narco, this narco who now instead of, let's say,
[00:00:37] collecting, yes,
[00:00:40] mortgaging the health of our children and the daughters of
[00:00:44] vulnerable sectors and everyone
[00:00:47] in general, now that return has more return by lending
[00:00:52] that are called money, the situation that is being raised in vulnerable neighborhoods and throughout Argentina
[00:00:56] with the situation we are experiencing is tremendous. You talk about the
[00:00:59] informal. You talk
[00:01:01] here, from about the informal issue, let's say, what
[00:01:04] would you do or what would an Argentine man or woman do
[00:01:08] if on the 20th they don't have absolutely
[00:01:10] 500,000, here he puts a little bit of what any more money and they have to give breakfast and food
[00:01:14] to their son or daughter, they see a virtual wallet, the possibility of
[00:01:18] taking out 100,000 pesos and their account is at
[00:01:20] zero, yes,
[00:01:23] they obviously execute. Now for those 100,000 pesos, if they are
[00:01:27] capable of charging you 1,300,000 pesos, then that is the problem,
[00:01:31] the unreasonableness and the
[00:01:36] 1 the government started with ease with which they took decree 7023 and they
[00:01:39] charge whatever they want, clear, yes, you're right, and we
[00:01:43] always point it out, the issue that obviously in need there is no
[00:01:46] rate that you analyze because you have a need, you don't even realize
[00:01:50] that the one who is lending to you will obviously break your door and take
[00:01:54] any appliance to
[00:02:04] everyone get into debt, it says we are sinking, the retirement
[00:02:07] goes into services, there are no increases, well, these are clear,
[00:02:11] well, these are the typical complaints that also have to do with and lead to the vicious circle of
[00:02:15] indebtedness, Ramiro, I wanted to ask you, I heard many
[00:02:18] important communicators even speak
[00:02:21] well of virtual wallets and that if it weren't for Galperín, certain people would not
[00:02:25] have access to credit, what do you
[00:02:26] tell them?
[00:02:31] Minister of Security recognized That Galperín is part of all the usury that there
[00:02:34] is in Argentina, for every peso he charges you, he can charge
[00:02:38] you 1300 pesos in the framework of
[00:02:41] a recognition, not all subsidies in a credit for each peso he charges you, usury is a classified
[00:02:45] conduct in the criminal code,
[00:02:47] Argentina, in article 175 bis of the criminal code, the
[00:02:50] Ersas, the Browns, the Galperíns, the
[00:02:53] Britos should
[00:02:57] realize what they are committing.
[00:03:16] who wants to tell us what is to clarify what they spend with those
[00:03:20] credits they ask for, not because today
[00:03:23] there is a lot of talk about
[00:03:26] this being money that they allocate to eat.
[00:03:30] physically, it's not that they're going to buy a TV as
[00:03:34] that I already told you, with the issue of Minister Caputo said,
[00:03:37] no, Minister Caputo,
[00:03:40] they have no idea of the situation that Argentines are living
[00:03:44] in, more than 86 or 90% of the
[00:03:48] credits are for food, what's more,
[00:03:51] look,
[00:03:53] where does that data come from, the surveys they
[00:03:57] do are a non-organization, Ramiro, yes.
[00:04:12] were you surprised by what
[00:04:18] know
[00:04:30] to appear before the media is very difficult, but the number of
[00:04:33] queries we receive are exponential, yes,
[00:04:39] income was to know a little because what every, every day more, yes, we see how how
[00:04:43] unfortunately situations are reproducing where to face the
[00:04:46] emergency they have to access credits and then they intend
[00:04:50] to charge them usurious interest on the little
[00:04:53] credit they had access
[00:04:56] service for what she owes, which is what to in order to live and eat, you are in the same situation, you represent it.
[00:05:01] Uh, as a job, I am representing the people and
[00:05:04] yes, no, no, no, I am, I am representing it as part of the movement
[00:05:08] of indebted families, not
[00:05:11] 24, 25, what only am I representing.
[00:05:19] not only for that, not only are we, not
[00:05:23] only am I representing the movement of indebted families, but there are lawyers
[00:05:26] in different places in the province of Buenos Aires, places in the country, in La
[00:05:30] Plata, in Bahía Blanca, in Salta, in Jujuy, who
[00:05:33] solidarity put our credentials at the
[00:05:37] disposal of the needs of the Argentine people to be able
[00:05:40] to represent and for people to know how to defend themselves.
[00:05:43] Now, did you think about the aesthetic of this protest for any special
[00:05:46] reason? I see it's quite peculiar,
[00:05:49] you have these eh posters and so on, do you want
[00:05:52] to tell something through this
[00:05:54] aesthetic?
[00:05:57] No, what the aesthetic helps us for is to identify ourselves, there are many groups
[00:06:01] of indebted families
[00:06:04] in another way, no, but I'm
[00:06:07] referring to the drumming, to the
[00:06:11] casseroles. No politics
[00:06:14] what I see, because I mean, sometimes they think that the issue of the indebted has to do only
[00:06:20] with a political sector, no, I mean, they have blamed
[00:06:24] the opposition above all, here it seems to me that it is a
[00:06:28] problem that involves everyone, beyond the political banner,
[00:06:32] no, totally and absolutely, totally and
[00:06:35] absolutely, it is as you say, I have nothing more to add,
[00:06:38] I have nothing more to add to that, here it is not a matter of political banners.
[00:06:42] Yes, what we want to do is solve a problem of Argentines, this
[00:06:48] 2.7% of families indebted with arrears of more than 90
[00:06:51] days and this government today is at
[00:06:54] 12.9%
[00:06:58] for the record, if anyone has any doubts, these are not
[00:07:01] data from the central bank, that flag, that red rag, what
[00:07:04] is it?
[00:07:07] Also, clear, here behind
[00:07:09] him, uh...
[00:07:42] to evaluate, let's say, with how much of each of the
[00:07:46] credits, rolling back the situation would be to reverse
[00:07:50] the decree
[00:07:51] exactly
[00:07:54] that is, to regulate, so that the state takes the initiative,
[00:07:58] here we are not asking for subsidies, we are asking that the
[00:08:01] state take absolute initiative not to allow banks
[00:08:05] to execute usury, the situation is rolled back, the
[00:08:08] capital that each one took out is analyzed, a rate is
[00:08:25] Ramiro, do you have anyone
[00:08:29] happening, how much they owe, who
[00:08:31] they
[00:08:33] owe?
[00:08:38] Yes, there are many, there are many, there are many, there are many people that
[00:08:41] we can take as testimony, but well, what happens is
[00:08:46] shame, many people don't want to, but let's see, let's see, let's
[00:08:50] put the microphone here for the people, hello, how are
[00:08:53] you, all good, all good, well, what's your name, Karina is also
[00:08:57] indebted, yes, she is indebted, what is your
[00:09:00] situation, and my situation is complicated because I asked for a
[00:09:03] loan through the application,
[00:09:06] uh, it kept increasing,
[00:09:09] uh, it's impossible to pay. Because the truth is
[00:09:13] that, how much did you ask for and how much do you have to return, I had
[00:09:16] asked for uh 1,600,
[00:09:19] well, I stopped paying, the application keeps
[00:09:22] asking you, this I asked for it again because you see that
[00:09:25] the application puts you again, and it's a
[00:09:28] wheel that never stops
[00:09:30] unfortunately and one out of necessity uh takes
[00:09:33] it, either for medication, or to pay a
[00:09:37] debt, or to pay electricity or some
[00:09:40] service, well that's the way it is. And
[00:09:43] unfortunately I'm still that way now, in your particular case
[00:09:47] uh you wanted to ask me what your
[00:09:51] we often question is that they offer money knowing
[00:09:55] that you won't be able to pay it back, no, so what was your income
[00:09:58] and if you want to tell me why you took out that
[00:10:01] credit, those credits.
[00:10:04] Well, uh, yes, yes, uh, that
[00:10:08] credit, first of all, my income is 350,
[00:10:10] 350
[00:10:13] uh, of course, after some time, the
[00:10:15] application gives it to you, because otherwise it wouldn't give it to you, uh, I asked for it,
[00:10:19] I didn't ask for it, it came out in the application, I asked for it at the
[00:10:22] time because I was in...
[00:10:25] Complicated with a family situation through
[00:10:28] that I left it, it was
[00:10:31] being paid and then I couldn't pay it anymore and
[00:10:35] that keeps going up unfortunately, it is now, for
[00:10:39] example, now that 1,600,000, imagine that
[00:10:43] she had 305 income, they offer
[00:10:47] 1,600,000 pesos, what is that
[00:10:50] 600,000 today, more or less to have an
[00:10:53] idea.
[00:10:56] Uh, and now I'm at 3 million, 3 million
[00:11:00] pesos, at 3 million, that is, what
[00:11:03] am I owing, because it keeps accumulating and
[00:11:07] that's the problem, and to pay one bill I ask for another,
[00:11:11] that's how it is, it's a wheel that never
[00:11:13] ends, do you owe anyone else besides that wallet,
[00:11:17] do you owe anyone else besides that virtual wallet, any person from your
[00:11:20] neighborhood, no,
[00:11:23] no, no, thank God, no, because it gets
[00:11:26] ugly, but no, no,
[00:11:29] only there and I owe the electricity bill too, I warn you, I have the bill
[00:11:33] here, 400,000,
[00:11:36] uh, please, that Edenor waits for me, do you have it to show the bill of the
[00:11:39] 40,000 pesos, yes, yes, I
[00:11:42] have it, but for 40,000, for
[00:11:45] 400, only one period, because you see that there are many who don't
[00:11:48] believe that these numbers come for only one period 400, it can
[00:11:52] be an accumulated debt.
[00:12:00] I mean, it's strange that a typical family
[00:12:03] spends 40,000 in a single period, well, now we see how
[00:12:07] this debt is composed.
[00:12:11] Let's see, it accumulated, oh, well, well, that's why it accumulated,
[00:12:14] because otherwise in one period
[00:12:18] 40,000, it's strange for a typical family to spend
[00:12:21] that much, it's part of the debt, look how it turned out.
[00:12:25] Well, well,
[00:12:28] a person can't have a debt for something as basic
[00:12:32] as electricity of 40,000 pesos, they get paid 3 or 4
[00:12:36] months, it's rare that they haven't cut off their electricity yet, because generally now we
[00:12:40] ask her because Facu is back, sorry,
[00:12:43] Facu, if you can ask her why they didn't cut off her electricity and if she can show us the bill so that it's on
[00:12:55] show
[00:12:59] you, uh,
[00:13:02] here, clear, 401 pesos,
[00:13:06] no, the cutoff notice, she has the cutoff notice and owes
[00:13:09] 40,000 pesos earning 305, guys, and
[00:13:13] since when, total of the period 24, that
[00:13:17] is, in the period she spent 24, what happens is that she has a previous
[00:13:20] balance of more than 350, that is, more in our
[00:13:24] favor. Clear, she has a debt, in the period she spent 24, but we are
[00:13:27] explaining that the 24 turned into 40,000 pesos, but since when,
[00:13:31] ma'am, no, but she has a balance, but let's see, clear, I want to ask
[00:13:35] her since when she has not been able to pay the electricity
[00:13:38] service, because per period, clear, as Fiora says, she pays
[00:13:42] twenty-something, twenty and something, yes,
[00:13:45] well, yes, yes, it's been a couple of months and I went to
[00:13:49] see if I could do it in comfortable installments, they gave me a
[00:13:52] number to call, that way. Because otherwise they don't
[00:13:56] do it now, well, nothing, I'm determined to do it
[00:13:59] soon, so well, that, a payment
[00:14:03] plan, clear, for now we celebrate something, they didn't cut it off,
[00:14:07] that's good,
[00:14:10] but the notice already arrived, so at any moment it can
[00:14:12] happen,
[00:14:15] clear, well, let's see, we are telling Onosa's story,
[00:14:19] thank you very much, thank you very much for your testimony, for being
[00:14:23] brave enough to tell it on a communication medium.
[00:14:26] Now let's look for more testimonies, Facu,
[00:14:37] we told, a million, let's see, 600
[00:14:40] thousand they gave a person who earned 30,000 pesos there,
[00:14:44] that cannot exist, I mean, how can it be that first
[00:14:47] of all, a, no, wait, wait, we have to see who gives the
[00:14:51] credit, that's why it's a virtual wallet, how
[00:15:05] 500 exact, there is no regulation for virtual
[00:15:08] wallets that determines that this is one of
[00:15:12] the many, exact, one of the 50 projects says
[00:15:16] exactly that it should be in accordance with your income, but the
[00:15:20] government tells you it's an agreement between private parties and the person asked
[00:15:22] for it.
[00:15:37] also, today there are so many Tami rulings in favor of
[00:15:41] the indebted, yes, let's see, uh, they are coming out, uh, look, the other day
[00:15:44] I had the opportunity to comment on a ruling in a legal magazine that spoke
[00:15:48] of a preventive composition of a woman who had
[00:15:51] become indebted because she had a health problem, her father, then her
[00:15:55] brother, taking credits, credits, credits, and so she
[00:15:59] presents herself, asks for her own preventive composition and the
[00:16:02] judge tells her okay, it's perfect, she's authorized to do it
[00:16:06] because in particulars it's sometimes difficult.
[00:16:08] He also tells her: you won't have to return the 20%
[00:16:12] stipulated for the creditors,
[00:16:14] he directly lifts all attachment measures, her salary is
[00:16:18] clean, it was a municipal salary, this is in Río Negro, I'm telling
[00:16:22] a ruling from Río Negro del Bolsón, and that was a very important precedent
[00:16:26] because justice told this woman, if you continue with
[00:16:30] an attachment on your head, you will never be able to get out of
[00:16:33] this, he says it with legal words, no, but that ruling is very important,
[00:16:37] just woman, the other day I read an article that eh women under
[00:16:41] 25 years old are the ones who default, that
[00:16:44] is, they constitute the highest rate of delinquency in
[00:16:48] the country and because perhaps they are the ones who earn the least, that
[00:16:52] is, under 25 years old, I don't know if more
[00:16:55] consumption is not stipulated, but they do have
[00:16:58] perhaps salaries eh lower, not that Fiora makes
[00:17:17] household, clearly, you think, how
[00:17:21] to answer us, that they go to the supermarket to buy
[00:17:55] rely and back myself up with data, with numbers, I understand little about economics but
[00:17:59] in this case I emitted a
[00:18:01] piece of data that arose from, I'm going to name the report
[00:18:04] prepared by the Center for Urban Studies, I don't know why many
[00:18:15] don't know it, that it's not
[00:18:19] part of the social reality of
[00:18:25] what happens is that the only thing we always differentiate and that seems
[00:18:28] right to me is that one thing is debt and another thing is
[00:18:31] arrears, I mean debt is something that is fine, I mean people
[00:18:35] often get into debt. I am indebted, clear,
[00:18:39] uh, another thing we are talking about are the
[00:18:42] defaulters, the people who owe
[00:18:45] that debt they acquired and cannot pay it, and beyond
[00:18:49] that, at the socio-economic level that
[00:18:53] we are living, you are there, one thread away from always becoming, with
[00:18:56] the rope around your neck, from becoming
[00:19:06] us about situations, she says hello, I am retired, I receive the minimum,
[00:19:10] my electricity bill was
[00:19:12] 544,
[00:19:15] yes, do you know how much she receives, 361,
[00:19:18] plus the bonus, wait, wait for me to finish, plus the bonus she says, I eat once a day,
[00:19:22] I have bitter mate for breakfast, I took out a loan, they
[00:19:25] deduct it and I only have 2 pesos left in hand, how
[00:19:29] do I do it, she tells me, because I have to pay for medication and bread for free, I'm going to
[00:19:33] get this, I can't tell you what to do,
[00:19:36] ma'am, retirement so that you don't
[00:19:39] have
[00:19:47] disposable salary to eat, so that has to be requested judicially, the lifting of the
[00:19:51] debit or you have to change the payment
[00:19:53] method.
[00:19:57] 500 and something for electricity, you have to see each
[00:19:59] case, they start to get indignant,
[00:20:03] they get indignant, I'm, we're asking.
[00:20:07] What I know that pays that are the taxes in the
[00:20:10] province, the number of bills I've seen that pay that, I live
[00:20:14] in the capital, it's a retired woman who has a debt
[00:20:18] of 500 thousand pesos for electricity and who collects
[00:20:20] three
[00:20:22] per month, per month, no, but she has an accumulated debt and that
[00:20:26] evidently she will prefer to buy her blood pressure medication
[00:20:29] and not pay the bill, the
[00:20:34] can happen, I mean, because it happens. And
[00:20:37] when, well, just now the lady on the phone also said I got
[00:20:41] a 40,000 bill for electricity, she didn't get
[00:20:45] that, in reality she got
[00:20:49] happens is that since...
[00:20:52] in the context we're talking about it's the same, when,
[00:20:55] when, even when I asked her since
[00:20:58] when, how long she hadn't paid, she didn't know how to tell me, she said a few
[00:21:02] months ago, but if one period is twenty something
[00:21:06] pesos, there can't be, proportionally
[00:21:10] speaking, she surely owes from years ago for that
[00:21:13] amount to add up and for you to have an idea, because that's why we always say it's an income
[00:21:17] problem because that woman stopped paying that virtual wallet that already
[00:21:20] demanded 3 million pesos from her these days, not even
[00:21:24] with her meager income can she cancel the
[00:21:28] electricity bill that she also had with debt, so that woman is in a vicious
[00:21:31] circle that has to do with that, taking out a loan to pay another
[00:21:35] loan, asking the mutual, asking for a salary advance, asking the virtual
[00:21:38] wallet, that is, there's no one else to ask and that is not solved
[00:21:42] easily, Caro, we have more messages, look, here we have a person who is sending
[00:21:46] us a message that they send him about how they threaten him by email, let's see?
[00:21:50] It says: hello, let's read, it says: I want to pay my debt, but they don't tell me where
[00:21:53] to pay it, they ignore my calls and messages, I asked for 200,000
[00:21:57] pesos and they want me to return
[00:22:00] they send him, eh, and they say: if you don't return the money,
[00:22:04] we will proceed to collect from your family, friends, referrals, but the money will be
[00:22:08] collected, it will be collected, beware, you were warned and if you didn't understand the
[00:22:12] good way, you will be warned the
[00:23:51] scared, yesterday we uploaded a video in collaboration with Crónica's social
[00:23:54] networks, in case of being at risk, in case of being a person
[00:23:58] trying to enter your home, call 911, but sometimes
[00:24:01] Pampa, and you, as a criminal lawyer, know this better, you know
[00:24:05] that sometimes it's not good to initiate a case of coercive threats against a
[00:24:09] person who has the whole neighborhood taken over, basically,
[00:24:12] how do you deal with that, here he is writing to us because he says
[00:24:16] that he took out a loan from the bank, he asked for a million and now he has to pay
[00:24:20] 8 million, well, let's see, Marcela, do you know
[00:24:23] people in your environment who are indebted up to their ears with what we are
[00:24:26] telling, the truth, the truth is I am middle class, I am a professional, middle
[00:24:30] class, I don't know anyone who is indebted, who buys,
[00:24:34] who gets into debt to go to the
[00:24:37] deli, the greengrocer, the truth is no, wait Marcela, I
[00:24:41] ask you, you don't have debt, because I have debt, oh, you don't owe the
[00:24:45] card, yes, but I pay everything, well, but
[00:24:48] you have everything.
[00:24:58] Please be serious about this, if you get the card, logically you have
[00:25:02] but if you pay it, you pay if you it all, meanwhile
[00:25:08] you're in the indebted category, guys, start embracing the debts of this
[00:25:11] period of Javier Miguel because otherwise I use the
[00:25:15] card all the time, clear, and it's Milei's
[00:25:18] fault, clear.
[00:25:50] more because you must have more indebted friends,
[00:25:53] thank you, thank you for, eh, if you are not indebted, the
[00:25:56] doctoral forces you, why? Because she likes
[00:25:59] people.
[00:26:04] take, Caro, whose side you take, indebted Caro,
[00:26:08] I'm looking at you, I take anyone's side, Norma says
[00:26:11] I was hacked, well, an application and they took 300,000 pesos from me and
[00:26:15] today she owes 3 million, well, wait, wait because that does have a
[00:26:19] solution, you have to make a claim for
[00:26:23] fraud in the application, the criminal complaint, even if you tell me
[00:26:27] no, well, they won't find it only for the purposes that you in
[00:26:30] consumer defense surely have a department close to your
[00:26:34] home for consumer defense, you go and make the
[00:26:37] claim because the virtual wallet when it's criminal cases does not
[00:26:41] charge you that, but you have to do all this procedure that I explain to you,
[00:26:44] here Gabriel, yes, here we have a comment from
[00:26:48] Gabriel who writes to us and says: you have to divide between
[00:26:51] debts, because one thing is that you bought a washing machine and another
[00:26:54] thing is that you are a defaulter, if you went and asked a drug dealer for money, well,
[00:26:58] deal with the consequences, no, how to deal with the consequences, deal with the consequences, that's what
[00:27:01] Gabriel is saying. He must be the one who lends, but wait, yes, he must be, he must be the one who lends, not
[00:27:05] poor Gabriel, but let's see, deal with the consequences is if you don't have enough to feed
[00:27:09] your child and you are in a very difficult decision
[00:27:13] not to, or you got sick, it's fine, I
[00:27:16] recognize that it is a limiting situation, what you point out is a
[00:27:20] limiting situation and I understand it, now you know that when you go to
[00:27:23] ask a drug dealer for money, well, you are flirting with
[00:27:27] risks, no, but... but they are not drug dealers, but
[00:27:30] they are not capable of being drug dealers, because the other day a person I
[00:27:34] interviewed about this topic told me that workers lend, so
[00:27:38] a person you know generally comes to you and says I'll lend you, now you don't know
[00:27:41] who that person is associated with or where the money comes from, so you're not going
[00:27:45] to ask, I don't know, throw me a famous
[00:28:04] sends us a very nice illustrated photo and tells us how
[00:28:07] much a police officer is worth, who is the person who protects you, 900,000
[00:28:11] pesos is not enough to live on, I have many overdue debts because my salary is not enough and
[00:28:15] now I have to go out and ask for money, well, there you have someone who
[00:28:18] is precisely a reference with the police, who it just so
[00:28:22] happens are the ones who have the highest level of indebtedness, those in the security
[00:28:25] forces. security, also the
[00:28:29] suicide rate is very strong, even the
[00:28:34] it in some way, right? That there's an issue with the loss of life
[00:28:38] of officers and their economy. So I think there's
[00:28:43] the security forces are due to indebtedness, eh, there are
[00:28:47] other reasons too, of course. Well, it wouldn't only be a matter
[00:28:50] of determining, but an official recognition that something is happening in the
[00:28:54] forces, yes, in all the forces, eh, no one is spared
[00:28:58] eh, some are better paid than others, but it's not
[00:29:02] like... as it was said before, to throw money around
[00:29:05] there are some forces that are better than
[00:29:08] others, but the salaries are not enough
[00:29:11] if not we wouldn't be seeing police officers
[00:29:15] doing , well, I didn't want to say drivers
[00:29:19] for applications or errands, or
[00:29:22] many, many become security guards
[00:29:26] for, say, some eh,
[00:29:29] some business or someone who ...
[00:29:46] us, she says, look, two years ago I asked for 80,000 pesos, I paid for
[00:29:49] something for a health problem I have, I am depressed, I also have a deviated
[00:29:53] spine, and now they are calling her daughter, threatening her that she owes
[00:29:57] 6 million pesos, 80 thousand
[00:29:59] well