CSPAN3 — Barbara McQuade The Fix
20260808 220000 UTC
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[00:00:03] JUST.
[00:00:04] PAST THE UPPER GARDEN ROOM
[00:00:10] THROUGH THE NEXT ART ARBOR IS
[00:00:12] THE ROSE GARDEN, THE ROSE ROOM
[00:00:14] AND THE PROPERTY STRETCHES ALL THE WAY BACK TO THE VERY BACK OF
[00:00:18] THE PROPERTY WHERE THE BAMBOO IS IN THE WOODLAND GARDEN.
[00:00:22] EUDORA AND HER MOTHER ACTIVELY TENDED THE GARDEN BETWEEN THE 1920S AND 40S.
[00:00:26] SO THAT'S WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE TODAY.
[00:00:28] IT BLOOMS 12 MONTHS OUT OF THE YEAR.
[00:00:31] TODAY IN BLOOM, WE HAVE SOME ZINNIAS.
[00:00:34] WE HAVE BLACK EYED SUSANS,
[00:00:38] KOREAN CORPSES AND COSMO'S.
[00:00:44] MS. WELTY WAS VERY INSPIRED BY THE
[00:00:48] OUTSIDE. SHE WRITES ABOUT OVER 100 PLANTS
[00:00:50] IN HER LITERATURE, THE MAJORITY
[00:00:53] OF WHICH SHE WOULD HAVE ACTIVELY
[00:00:55] TENDED HERE IN THE GARDEN.
[00:00:59] AND IT BLOOMS 12 MONTHS OUT OF THE YEAR. I KNOW I ALREADY SAID THAT, BUT
[00:01:04] THAT IS JUST ALL THE REASON TO COME TO THE WEALTHY HOUSE AND THEN COME BACK AGAIN ANOTHER
[00:01:08] TIME TOO. THANK YOU GUYS SO MUCH.
[00:01:17] BOOK TV IS TELEVISION FOR SERIOUS READERS.
[00:01:21] KEEP WATCHING FOR MORE OF THE
[00:01:22] LATEST NONFICTION BOOKS.
[00:01:25] HI, MY NAME IS BRITTANY WATSON. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE
[00:01:29] TONIGHT. IT IS MY PLEASURE TO WELCOME YOU ALL TO THIS. WRITERS ON A NEW ENGLAND STAGE
[00:01:33] EVENT AND THE VERY LAST EVENT OF
[00:01:37] OUR SECOND ANNUAL SEACOAST LIVE FEST. SO THANK YOU ALL FOR BEING HERE
[00:01:40] AND FOR JOINING THE MUSICAL AND OUR FRIENDS AT NEW HAMPSHIRE
[00:01:44] PUBLIC RADIO. WE ARE THRILLED TO HAVE THE
[00:01:46] BESTSELLING AUTHOR, BARBARA MCQUADE, BACK WITH HER NEW BOOK,
[00:01:50] THE FIX, WHICH HIT THE NEW YORK TIMES BESTSELLER LIST THIS WEEK.
[00:01:53] SO YAY FOR HER.
[00:01:58] BARBARA MCQUADE IS A PROFESSOR FROM PRACTICE AT THE UNIVERSITY
[00:02:01] OF MICHIGAN LAW SCHOOL, HER ALMA MATER, WHERE SHE TEACHES COURSES
[00:02:05] IN CRIMINAL LAW, CRIMINAL PROCEDURE, NATIONAL SECURITY AND
[00:02:09] DATA PRIVACY. SHE'S ALSO A LEGAL ANALYST FOR NBC NEWS AND MSNBC.
[00:02:15] AND CO-HOST OF THE SISTERS IN LA.
[00:02:18] PILOT CAST FROM 2010 TO 2017.
[00:02:21] SHE SERVED AS THE U.S. ATTORNEY FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF
[00:02:25] MICHIGAN AND WAS APPOINTED BY PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA AND WAS
[00:02:29] THE FIRST WOMAN TO SERVE IN HER POSITION. SHE IS ALSO THE AUTHOR OF THE
[00:02:32] NATIONAL BESTSELLER ATTACK FROM WITHIN.
[00:02:35] SO, GABE, WE'RE SO EXCITED TO
[00:02:36] HAVE HER BACK.
[00:02:43] NOW IN A FEW MINUTES. WELL, SHE'LL BE JOINED ON STAGE
[00:02:46] BY TONIGHT'S MODERATOR AND THE HOST OF NPR'S MORNING EDITION,
[00:02:50] RICK GANLEY. YOU CAN LISTEN TO AND I KNOW WE
[00:02:54] LOVE HAVING RICK MAKE YOU CAN LISTEN TO HPR ON YOUR RADIO
[00:02:58] THROUGH THE END OR HPR APP OR AT
[00:02:59] AN HPR. GEORGIE.
[00:03:03] AFTER BARBARA AND RICK CHAT FOR A BIT, THEY'LL TURN TO YOU.
[00:03:06] SO IF YOU HAD A QUESTION AND WROTE IT ON A QUESTION CARD,
[00:03:09] WE'LL GET THOSE BACK TO HER. AND I WILL TRY TO COVER AS MANY
[00:03:12] AS WE CAN. IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO MEET
[00:03:16] BARBARA AFTER THE SHOW, YOU CAN LINE UP AT THE STORE HERE ON THE
[00:03:19] LEFT AND COME BACKSTAGE FOR FUN. LITTLE SIGNING AND PERSONALIZATION.
[00:03:24] BEFORE WE GET STARTED, A LITTLE BIT MORE HOUSE KEEPING. FIRST, PLEASE TAKE A MOMENT TO
[00:03:27] NOTE YOUR NEAR EXIT. KEEP IN MIND IT MIGHT BE BEHIND YOU.
[00:03:31] AND PLEASE ALSO KNOW FLASH PHOTOGRAPHY OR VIDEO PERMITTED
[00:03:35] DURING THE SHOW. WE'RE SO GRATEFUL HAVING YOU ALL
[00:03:38] HERE TONIGHT FOR THIS WRITERS AND ON STAGE EVENT.
[00:03:40] AND WE COULDN'T DO WITHOUT THE SUPPORT OF OUR GENEROUS SPONSORS, INCLUDING OUR LEAD
[00:03:44] SPONSOR, MIKI AND CHARITABLE
[00:03:46] GIVING, OUR SEASON SPONSOR IS KERRY AND JOHN FOR REALTORS AT J
[00:03:50] GROUP HOSPITALITY AND BOARDWALK PLACE. ARE CONTRIBUTING PARTNER AND
[00:03:53] LITERARY PRESENTING SPONSOR IS THE UNIVERSITY OF NEW HAMPSHIRE.
[00:03:57] NOW THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE FOR LIT FIRST AND THANK YOU FOR BEING A PART OF
[00:04:02] THIS LITERARY TRADITION. WE'RE SO GLAD TO HAVE YOU HERE
[00:04:05] AND I HOPE WE'LL SEE YOU SOON. SO NOW PLEASE JOIN ME IN
[00:04:09] WELCOMING BARBARA MCQUADE AND RICK HANLEY.
[00:04:27] GOOD EVENING. HELLO. THANK YOU.
[00:04:31] THAT'S VERY THAT'S VERY NICE OF YOU. THANK YOU FOR SAYING HELLO BACK. THANKS SO MUCH FOR COMING OUT
[00:04:35] TONIGHT. HOW ABOUT DREADNOUGHT? DID YOU ENJOY IT?
[00:04:38] DID YOU CATCH THE THEME FOR TO
[00:04:42] LAW AND ORDER? I FOUGHT THE LAW. I THINK YOU CAN SEE THE THEME THERE.
[00:04:44] A VERY CLEVER. I DO APPRECIATE THAT. THAT'S AMAZING. WELL, THANK YOU ALL FOR COMING
[00:04:48] OUT TONIGHT. IT'S A PLEASURE, BARBARA. THANK YOU FOR SHARING THE STAGE
[00:04:52] WITH US TONIGHT. YEAH, THANK YOU SO MUCH, RICK.
[00:04:55] I REALLY HONORED TO BE HERE. THIS IS AN AMAZING VENUE IN A
[00:05:00] BEAUTIFUL TOWN. I'M JUST THRILLED TO BE HERE IN PORTSMOUTH. THANK YOU FOR MODERATING.
[00:05:03] I KNOW YOU ARE AN EARLY BIRD WITH THE MORNING EDITION SHOWS.
[00:05:07] THANKS FOR STAYING UP LATE AT 7 P.M. WITH US. THREE. AND THANKS TO ALL OF YOU FOR
[00:05:12] COMING OUT. IT REALLY IS AN HONOR THAT EACH AND EVERY ONE OF YOU ARE HERE TONIGHT.
[00:05:16] AND I APPRECIATE YOUR TIME. THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR COMING
[00:05:18] TO LISTEN.
[00:05:22] WELCOME BACK TO PORTSMOUTH. I KNOW WE WERE JUST TALKING BACKSTAGE.
[00:05:25] YOU, YOU KNOW, HAVE BOOKED DATES IN NEW YORK AND CHICAGO AND
[00:05:29] OTHER OTHER CITIES. SOME OF THEM, YOU KNOW, NOT
[00:05:32] QUITE AS IMPORTANT HERE AS PORTSMOUTH. SO WE APPRECIATE YOU BEING HERE.
[00:05:36] WOULD YOU TAKE OFF MY GLASSES SO I CAN SEE? HERE WE GO. OKAY.
[00:05:40] IS SUBTITLED THIS BOOK, THE FIX
[00:05:45] SAVING AMERICA FROM THE CORRUPTION OF A MOB STYLE GOVERNMENT.
[00:05:48] NOW YOU'RE TAKING HIM DIRECTLY AT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION. OBVIOUSLY.
[00:05:51] HOW DO YOU DEFINE A MOB STYLE GOVERNMENT?
[00:05:54] WELL, I REALLY BASE THIS ANALYSIS ON MY CAREER AS A
[00:05:58] FEDERAL PROSECUTOR, WHERE I
[00:06:00] HANDLED CASES INVOLVING
[00:06:03] ORGANIZED CRIME ENTERPRISES,
[00:06:05] CORRUPT PUBLIC OFFICIALS AND CON MEN.
[00:06:07] AND THE TACTICS THAT WE SEE FROM THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION
[00:06:11] RESEMBLE THE TACTICS OF THOSE KINDS OF GROUPS.
[00:06:14] AND THE MAIN FOCUS BEING THE USE
[00:06:18] OF LEVERAGE, LOOKING FOR WAYS TO
[00:06:21] USE POWER TO AMASS MORE POWER.
[00:06:25] AND SO, YOU KNOW, INFLICTING
[00:06:28] PAIN ON RIVALS OR OTHER CENTERS
[00:06:30] OF POWER TO COERCE THEM TO COME
[00:06:34] TO THE TABLE TO NEGOTIATE THEIR OWN PUNISHMENT.
[00:06:36] AND SO I SAW THIS, FOR EXAMPLE, WITH THE FORMER MAYOR OF DETROIT
[00:06:40] WHO WOULD DEMAND KICKBACKS FROM
[00:06:44] ANYBODY WHO WANTED TO DO BUSINESS WITH THE CITY OF DETROIT.
[00:06:46] IF YOU DIDN'T PAY THE KICKBACK, YOU LOST THE BUSINESS.
[00:06:49] AND THESE WERE MULTI-MILLION DOLLAR DEALS.
[00:06:52] AND SO THEY LEARNED THAT IF YOU WANT TO GET THE GOOD DEAL, YOU
[00:06:55] HAVE TO AGREE TO THESE TERMS. I THINK WE'RE SEEING THE SAME
[00:06:59] THING FROM THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, ARE WE NOT? I MEAN, IT STARTED THE SECOND
[00:07:02] TERM WITH THE DISMISSAL OF THE
[00:07:07] INDICTMENT AGAINST MAYOR ERIC ADAMS FOR BRIBERY.
[00:07:09] BUT ONLY ON THE CONDITION THAT
[00:07:12] HE AGREE TO ENFORCE PRESIDENT
[00:07:14] TRUMP'S IMMIGRATION AGENDA. AND IT WAS CLEAR THAT THAT
[00:07:17] INDICTMENT WOULD HANG OVER HIS HEAD AS LONG AS THE TRUMP
[00:07:21] ADMINISTRATION HAD ITS WAY.
[00:07:23] THE EXECUTIVE ORDERS AGAINST LAW
[00:07:25] FIRMS, YOU KNOW, ACCUSING THEM
[00:07:27] FALSELY OF WEAPONIZATION SIMPLY BY ASSOCIATING WITH PEOPLE LIKE
[00:07:31] ROBERT MUELLER OR MARC ELIAS OR
[00:07:33] OTHER LAWYERS WHO HAD INTERESTS
[00:07:35] AGAINST THE PRESIDENT IN THEIR PROFESSIONAL CAPACITY.
[00:07:40] AND TELLING THEM THEY COULD NOT ENTER FEDERAL BUILDINGS, WHICH
[00:07:42] IS PRETTY TOUGH TO DO IF YOU'RE A LAWYER BECAUSE IT INCLUDES COURTS.
[00:07:46] YOU CAN'T GO TO A COURTHOUSE. AND SO DEMANDING THAT THEY COME
[00:07:49] TO THE TABLE TO NEGOTIATE THEIR
[00:07:51] OWN PUNISHMENT IN THE FORM OF
[00:07:53] PRO BONO LEGAL SERVICES.
[00:07:55] SOME FIRMS HELD FIRM AND FILED
[00:07:59] LAWSUITS. AND ONE IS, OF COURSE, WE KNEW THEY WOULD, BUT OTHERS CAPITULATED AND THEY CAVE
[00:08:03] BECAUSE THEY FEARED THE REPERCUSSION SIGNS OF CROSSING THIS PRESIDENT.
[00:08:07] AND SO THESE TACTICS THAT WE ARE
[00:08:09] SEEING FROM THIS ADMINISTRATION
[00:08:12] ARE THE SAME TACTICS THEY GET
[00:08:14] USED BY THE MOB, CORRUPT PUBLIC
[00:08:16] OFFICIALS AND CON MEN ALL ACROSS
[00:08:18] AMERICA IN CRIMINAL CASES.
[00:08:20] WHAT MAKES THIS ADMINISTRATION,
[00:08:23] THOUGH, DIFFERENT IN YOUR MIND? POLITICIANS.
[00:08:25] THERE HAVE BEEN CORRUPT POLITICIANS SINCE DAY ONE OF THE REPUBLIC.
[00:08:30] THERE HAVE BEEN CORRUPT POLITICIANS IN EACH PARTY. THERE HAVE BEEN CORRUPT
[00:08:34] POLITICIANS AT THE TOWN, COUNTY, STATE AND FEDERAL LEVEL.
[00:08:36] WHAT MAKES THIS PARTICULAR ADMINISTRATION WORSE?
[00:08:40] YEAH, AND I DON'T DISAGREE WITH IT. I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS ABOUT THIS ADMINISTRATION IS THAT
[00:08:44] THEY'RE DOING IT IN BROAD DAYLIGHT. AND I THINK THAT IS PART OF THE
[00:08:48] POWER GRAB. AND ALSO PART OF THE ANALOGY TO
[00:08:52] ORGANIZED CRIME. YOU KNOW, JOHN GOTTI FAMOUSLY
[00:08:56] WAS VERY OPEN ABOUT HIS ROLE AS
[00:08:59] THE LEADER OF A CRIME FAMILY.
[00:09:01] HE WORE EXPENSIVE SUITS AND SILK TIES AND HE WALKED AROUND IN
[00:09:05] PUBLIC BECAUSE PART OF THE
[00:09:07] SHTICK WAS TRYING TO CREATE THE IMPRESSION THAT HE WAS
[00:09:12] INVINCIBLE. YOU KNOW, YOU CAN'T STOP ME.
[00:09:15] AND AN EFFORT TO MAKE YOU FEEL
[00:09:18] HELPLESS AND HOPELESS. AND SO WE SEE THIS PRESIDENT
[00:09:22] USING HIS POWER TO MAXIMAL EFFECT. YOU KNOW, ISSUING EXECUTIVE
[00:09:27] ORDERS THAT REDEFINED BIRTH RIGHTS ARTISANSHIP OR PUTTING
[00:09:32] HIS NAME ON THE KENNEDY CENTER, WHICH WE'VE RECENTLY SEEN COME
[00:09:38] DOWN.
[00:09:40] AND THERE'S A POINT THERE, THOUGH.
[00:09:43] I MEAN, YOU COULD YOU CAN POINT THESE THINGS OUT, BUT WE CAN
[00:09:46] ALSO SAY, WELL, THE SYSTEM IS WORKING RIGHT.
[00:09:49] THE COURTS HAVE RESPONDED.
[00:09:50] YEAH, IT IS GRATIFYING TO SEE
[00:09:53] THE COURTS RESPONDING IN SOME WAYS. YOU KNOW, WE HAVE SEEN A MIX, I
[00:09:57] THINK, AT THE SUPREME COURT. I THINK LOWER COURTS, BY AND
[00:10:01] LARGE, HAVE REALLY HELD THE PLACE THAT I'VE BEEN MOST
[00:10:03] DISAPPOINTED, FRANKLY, IS CONGRESS, WHICH I THINK HAS
[00:10:07] REALLY ROLLED OVER.
[00:10:09] YOU KNOW, WITH WITH SOME MOMENTS. RIGHT.
[00:10:12] THEY DID PUSH BACK AGAINST HIS $1.8 BILLION SLUSH FUND.
[00:10:15] BUT SO OFTEN WE'VE SEEN CONGRESS, WHICH HAS THE POWER OF
[00:10:18] THE PURSE, PERMIT THE PRESIDENT
[00:10:20] TO DISMANTLE ALL FEDERAL
[00:10:22] AGENCIES CREATED BY ACTS OF KIND CONGRESS LIKE THE DEPARTMENT OF
[00:10:26] EDUCATION OR USAID. AND NOW GUESS WHAT? EBOLA IS BACK, RIGHT?
[00:10:29] WE'VE SEEN THAT. WE HAVE SEEN CONGRESS ROLL OVER
[00:10:33] ON THE POWER TO COLLECT AND LEVY TAXES IN THE FORM OF TARIFFS.
[00:10:37] WE HAVE SEEN CONGRESS ROLL OVER
[00:10:40] IN THE POWER TO DECLARE WAR, ALLOWING PRESIDENT TRUMP TO GO
[00:10:44] OFF ON HIS OWN IN IRAN AND OTHER
[00:10:46] CENTERS OF POWER HAVE ALSO YIELDED. WE MENTIONED LAW FIRMS.
[00:10:50] I WOULD INCLUDE IN SOME OF THOSE SOME UNIVERSAL ITIES THAT HAVE
[00:10:53] GONE ALONG WITH THESE BASELESS ALLEGATIONS THAT SOMEHOW THEIR
[00:10:57] D-I PROGRAMS VIOLATE THE LAW OR
[00:11:01] EVEN THE MEDIA, WHICH HAS
[00:11:03] SETTLED LAWSUITS ON THE BASIS OF
[00:11:06] BASELESS CLAIMS OF DEFAMATION.
[00:11:10] JUST TO CURRY FAVOR, IN MY OPINION, WITH THE ADMINISTRATION, BECAUSE THEY
[00:11:13] CARE MORE ABOUT APPROVAL OF THE
[00:11:16] MERGERS OR THEY DON'T WANT
[00:11:18] ENFORCEMENT ACTIONS AGAINST THEM, OR THEY WANT TO MAKE SURE
[00:11:21] THEY KEEP THEIR BROADCAST LICENSE. AND SO THEY THINK OF IT AS A CONSUMER BUSINESS AT THIS POINT.
[00:11:26] THE APPEASEMENT IS WHAT SEEMS SO DIFFERENT. YEAH.
[00:11:28] MUCH OF THE BOOK IS ABOUT CHRONICLING THE ACTIONS OF THIS ADMINISTRATION.
[00:11:32] OBVIOUSLY, AS YOU'VE BEEN POINTING OUT, EXTENSIVE NOTES AND CITATIONS.
[00:11:36] HOW IMPORTANT IS IS THAT IN
[00:11:38] MAKING A CASE FOR CORRUPTION TO
[00:11:40] THOSE WHO WILL COME AFTER US?
[00:11:42] I MEAN, HOW IMPORTANT IS IT TO MAKE THOSE ARGUMENTS NOW, EVEN
[00:11:46] IF SOME IN SOME WAYS YOU'RE NOT REACHING AN AUDIENCE, MAYBE THAT
[00:11:50] YOU THAT NEEDS TO READ THIS? WELL, I HOPE EVERYBODY WILL READ IT.
[00:11:53] BUT I ALSO RECOGNIZE THAT MAYBE
[00:11:55] PEOPLE WHO ARE STAUNCH
[00:11:58] SUPPORTERS OF THIS ADMINISTRATION WILL CHOOSE NOT TO.
[00:12:02] BUT I STILL THINK THAT THERE ARE A COUPLE OF IMPORTANT AUDIENCES
[00:12:05] FOR THIS. ONE, YOU KNOW, SOME PEOPLE SAY YOU'RE ONLY PREACHING TO THE CHOIR.
[00:12:09] WELL, SOMETIMES THE CHOIR NEEDS TO HEAR THE SERMON TO WRITE.
[00:12:12] YOU NEED THE FACTS. THE EVIDENCE THAT YOU CAN USE IN
[00:12:15] YOUR OWN KIND FOR STATIONS.
[00:12:17] NO ONE IS MORE INFLUENTIAL THAN THE PEOPLE AROUND US. AND SO IF YOU WANT TO HAVE
[00:12:21] CONVERSATIONS WITH YOUR FRIENDS AND FAMILY MEMBERS, I HAVE
[00:12:23] PROVIDED THE EVIDENCE FOR YOU TO DOCUMENT IT. TO DO THAT.
[00:12:27] I ALSO THINK THAT YOU'RE WELCOME.
[00:12:32] I ALSO THINK THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE OUT THERE WHO ARE
[00:12:35] CURIOUS, WHO ARE INDEPENDENT VOTERS, WHO ARE PEOPLE IN THE
[00:12:39] MIDDLE, WHO CARE ABOUT LAW AND ORDER, WHO CARE ABOUT THE
[00:12:43] INSTITUTION OF DEMOCRACY AND RECOGNIZE THAT THERE'S SOMETHING
[00:12:46] AMISS THAT'S GOING ON RIGHT NOW. YOU KNOW, MAYBE THEY AREN'T
[00:12:51] VOTERS WHO TEND TO LEAN ONE WAY OR THE OTHER. BUT I THINK IN FORMING PEOPLE
[00:12:55] THAT WHAT WE ARE SEEING NOW IS
[00:12:57] VERY DISTURBING AND VERY DIFFERENT FROM WHAT WE'VE SEEN
[00:13:00] IN THE PAST. YOU KNOW, I SPENT MY CAREER AS A FEDERAL PROSECUTOR.
[00:13:04] I CARE DEEPLY ABOUT THE RULE OF LAW. AND SO PERHAPS I HAVE SOME CREDIBILITY AMONG AN AUDIENCE OF
[00:13:10] PEOPLE WHO CARE ABOUT THE LAW, WHO WILL LISTEN AND UNDERSTAND
[00:13:14] THAT WHAT WE'RE SEEING RIGHT NOW, FOR EXAMPLE, AT THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE, IS
[00:13:19] COMPLETE, DIFFERENT FROM WHAT WE HAVE KNOWN PRIOR TO THIS POINT.
[00:13:23] THE USE OF THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT TO BOTH REWARD ALLIES
[00:13:27] AND TO PUNISH ENEMIES IS NOT CONSISTENT WITH THE RULE OF LAW.
[00:13:30] AND I THINK THAT BECAUSE I HAVE SPENT 20 YEARS THERE AS AN
[00:13:35] INSIDER, I HAVE THE ABILITY TO EXPOSE IT. AND I'M HOPEFUL THAT PEOPLE WILL
[00:13:38] READ THAT. YOU KNOW, YOU MAY CONSIDER PEOPLE WHO WORK AT THE JUSTICE
[00:13:41] DEPARTMENT TO BE PEOPLE WHO ARE
[00:13:43] INSTITUTIONALIST AND SO I THINK
[00:13:45] FOR MY COLLEAGUES AND FORMER COLLEAGUES WHO WILL READ THIS, I
[00:13:49] EXPECT THAT THEY WILL NOT ALONG AND UNDERSTAND THAT WHAT WE ARE
[00:13:52] SEEING NOW IS A COMPLETE
[00:13:56] BASTARDIZE ZATION OF THE KINDS
[00:13:58] OF NORMS AND POLICIES THAT WE HAVE ALWAYS KNOWN.
[00:14:03] THERE.
[00:14:05] I WANT TO ASK A STEP BACK A
[00:14:08] LITTLE BIT AND ASK HOW YOU CAME TO TO PRACTICE LAW IN THE FIRST PLACE.
[00:14:12] WHAT WAS YOUR INSPIRATION AS A
[00:14:14] YOUNG WOMAN, YOUR YOUR HOW YOU
[00:14:17] CAME UP THROUGH LAW SCHOOL, HOW YOU CAME TO BE A FEDERAL
[00:14:23] PROSECUTOR? YEAH. YOU KNOW, I'M NOT SURE. I'VE NEVER PSYCHOANALYZED IT,
[00:14:25] BUT I GUESS I WOULD SAY THERE
[00:14:28] ARE TWO KIND OF FORMATIVE
[00:14:30] ASPECTS OF MY YOUTH THAT I THINK HAVE DRIVEN EVERYTHING THAT I'VE DONE.
[00:14:34] ONE IS I WAS WHAT WE WOULD CALL
[00:14:37] IN THE 1960S AND 70S A TOMBOY. ANYBODY ELSE OUT HERE, A FORMER
[00:14:42] TOMBOY BOY. YOU KNOW, I LIKE TO PLAY SPORTS.
[00:14:44] I WANTED TO DO SOMETHING OTHER THAN TO STAY AT HOME THE WAY MY
[00:14:50] MOM DID. ALTHOUGH I HAD A GREAT MOM. I WANTED TO GO OUT IN THE WORLD AND DO THINGS.
[00:14:54] AND, YOU KNOW, I WAS CONSTANTLY TOLD THAT'S NOT WHAT GIRLS DO.
[00:14:58] IN THE 1960S, I WANTED TO PLAY SHORTSTOP FOR THE DETROIT TIGERS, AND I WAS TOLD I
[00:15:01] COULDN'T DO THAT. SO I SAID, WELL, OKAY, THEN I'LL BE PRESIDENT. AND I GIRLS CAN'T DO THAT EITHER.
[00:15:05] AND I WAS PRETTY OFFENDED BY THAT. SO I GUESS I HAD A CHIP ON MY
[00:15:09] SHOULDER, AS THEY USED TO SAY, OF FEMINISTS IN THE DAY AND
[00:15:12] WANTED TO CHANGE THE WORLD AND MAKE IT BETTER.
[00:15:14] I THOUGHT IT FAILED US TO STAND
[00:15:16] UP TO THE IDEALS OF AMERICA THAT
[00:15:18] I HAD BEEN TAUGHT AS A CHILD, THAT WE ARE ALL CREATED EQUAL
[00:15:22] AND WE ALL SHOULD HAVE AN EQUAL OPPORTUNITY. SO I THINK THAT DROVE ME TO BECOME A LAWYER.
[00:15:26] I THINK THE OTHER THING. THANK YOU.
[00:15:29] THE OTHER THING IS ONE OF MY FIRST MEMORIES OF CURRENT EVENTS WAS THE WATERGATE HEARINGS.
[00:15:33] AS A CHILD, I REVERED THE
[00:15:37] PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES AND WAS APPALLED THAT HE WOULD BETRAY THE TRUST OF THE AMERICAN
[00:15:41] PEOPLE BY ENGAGING IN MISCONDUCT IN OFFICE.
[00:15:44] AND SO I WATCHED RAPTLY AT THE
[00:15:46] HEARING AND WAS VERY IMPRESSED
[00:15:48] WITH BOTH THE WORK OF WOODWARD
[00:15:50] AND BERNSTEIN AND THE WORK OF THE LAWYERS WHO WORKED ON THE
[00:15:54] CASE AND THE MEMBERS OF CONGRESS. AND I THOUGHT THIS IDEA OF
[00:15:57] HOLDING PEOPLE ACCOUNTABLE WHO ABUSED THE PUBLIC TRUST WAS A
[00:16:00] VERY WORTHY THING. SO I STUDIED JOURNALISM AND I WORKED FOR A SHORT TIME AS A
[00:16:04] JOURNALIST. AND THEN I WENT TO LAW SCHOOL. AND I THINK THAT LED ME DOWN
[00:16:07] THIS PATH AS A PROSECUTOR. THE IDEA OF HOLDING ACCOUNTABLE
[00:16:11] THOSE WHO WOULD ABUSE THEIR POWER WHEN THAT POWER BELONGS TO
[00:16:14] THE AMERICAN PEOPLE IS WHAT HAS ALWAYS DRIVEN ME.
[00:16:19] YOU. YOU'RE VERY KIND, BUT YOU DON'T HAVE TO CLAP AFTER EVERYTHING.
[00:16:22] LIKE IT'S NOT THE STATE OF THE UNION OR ANYTHING.
[00:16:26] THAT'S WHY WE'RE RECORDING THIS FOR BROADCAST. SO YOU CAN CLAP ALL YOU WANT.
[00:16:29] WE CAN EDIT IT TO MAKE IT SOUND LIKE I JUST SAID SOMETHING BRILLIANT.
[00:16:35] IT'S NOT EASY TO DO. WELL, YOU MET.
[00:16:39] YOU BROUGHT UP WATERGATE. I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THE DIFFERENCES THAT WE SEE NOW AS
[00:16:42] OPPOSED TO THE EARLY 70S AND WATERGATE.
[00:16:45] WHY DO YOU THINK THERE WAS SUCH
[00:16:48] A BROAD CONSENSUS ACROSS AMERICA THAT WATERGATE WAS OBVIOUSLY
[00:16:52] VERY BAD FOR THE COUNTRY AND WE
[00:16:54] SEE SUCH A LARGE SUBSET OF
[00:16:56] AMERICANS NOW WHO ARE QUITE DEDICATED TO THE PRESIDENT, NO
[00:17:00] MATTER WHAT. YEAH, I THINK WE'VE SEEN A REAL
[00:17:02] TRANSFORMATION IN THE ELECTORATE AND A DISTRUST IN OUR
[00:17:07] INSTITUTIONS OF GOVERNMENT, PERHAPS CAUSED BY WATERGATE.
[00:17:11] YOU KNOW, CERTAINLY PRESIDENT NIXON BETRAYED THE TRUST OF THE
[00:17:13] AMERICAN PEOPLE BY USING THE PRESIDENCY TO TRY TO GAIN A
[00:17:17] POLITICAL ADVANTAGE, TO PUNISH HIS ENEMIES, AND THEN TO TRY TO
[00:17:21] CONCEAL IT AND COVER IT UP. AND GOT CAUGHT.
[00:17:23] AND THERE WAS A DESIRE FOR ACCOUNTABILITY BACK THEN.
[00:17:26] I THINK. I THINK ONE OF THE MISTAKES OF
[00:17:29] THE WATERGATE ERA HAPPENED BECAUSE OF GERALD FORD FROM MY
[00:17:33] HOME STATE OF MICHIGAN. WE'RE ALL VERY PROUD OF GERALD FORD. HE'S OUR ONLY PRESIDENT.
[00:17:36] SO WE WE LOVE OUR GERRY FORD. BUT I THINK HE MADE A REAL
[00:17:40] MISTAKE IN PARDONING PRESIDENT NIXON. AT THE TIME, I MIGHT HAVE
[00:17:43] THOUGHT IT WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO. BUT YOU MAY RECALL THAT HE PARDONED RICHARD NIXON AND SAID
[00:17:47] OUR LONG NATIONAL NIGHTMARE IS OVER. IT'S TIME TO MOVE FORWARD AND TO
[00:17:51] TURN THE PAGE TO MOVE FORWARD RATHER THAN BACKWARD.
[00:17:54] AND I THINK THAT FAILURE OF ACCOUNTABLE PARTY IS WHAT LED US
[00:17:57] DOWN THE PATH TO A DONALD TRUMP. YOU KNOW, AS A PROSECUTOR, I
[00:18:01] ALWAYS VIEWED THE WORK OF PROSECUTORS, NOT SO MUCH AS
[00:18:05] LOOKING BACK TOWARD PUNISHMENT, BUT LOOKING FORWARD ABOUT
[00:18:07] FOCUSING ON DETERRENCE AND PUBLIC SAFETY.
[00:18:10] IF YOU DON'T HOLD BAD ACTORS ACCOUNTABLE AND TEACH OTHERS
[00:18:14] THAT THERE ARE CONSEQUENCES WHEN
[00:18:16] YOU ENGAGE IN MISCONDUCT, THEN YOU FAIL TO CREATE THAT
[00:18:20] DETERRENCE OR PUBLIC SAFETY THAT IS NECESSARY. AND SO I THINK A LESSON FROM
[00:18:24] THAT WAS YOU CAN GET AWAY WITH THESE MISCONDUCT.
[00:18:28] YOU KNOW, ROGER STONE IS A THROUGH LINE OF BOTH OF THOSE THINGS.
[00:18:31] HE'S ALL ABOUT DIRTY TRICKS. AND I THINK BREEDING CYNICISM IS
[00:18:34] SOMETHING THAT SOME PEOPLE HAVE SUCCEEDED AT.
[00:18:38] AND SO MANY VOTERS HAVE BECOME VERY CYNICAL.
[00:18:41] ONE OF THE LESSONS FROM RUSSIA
[00:18:43] IN PUTIN'S REGIME IS THAT IF YOU
[00:18:45] CAN GET THE PUBLIC TO BELIEVE
[00:18:48] THAT ALL POLITICIANS ARE CORRUPT, NOT THAT YOU'RE HONEST,
[00:18:52] NECESSARY EARLY, BUT THEY'RE ALL
[00:18:53] CORRUPT ANYWAY, THEN IF VOTERS
[00:18:57] AGREE WITH SOME PARTS OF YOUR AGENDA, THEN THEY'LL OVERLOOK
[00:18:59] YOUR CORRUPTION. AND I THINK THAT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT THE TRUMP
[00:19:04] ADMINISTRATION HAS SUCCEEDED IN IS CONSTANTLY BANGING THE DRUM,
[00:19:07] THAT HILLARY WAS CORRUPT AND OBAMA WAS CORRUPT AND BIDEN WAS
[00:19:11] CORRUPT. AND IF YOU BELIEVE THEY'RE ALL CORRUPT, THEN WHO CARES?
[00:19:14] AND WE DISENGAGE FROM POLITICS. AND THE GUY WHO STICKS IT TO THE
[00:19:18] IMMIGRANTS OR STICKS IT TO THE MINORITIES OR MAKES ME RICHER IN
[00:19:22] MY 41K, I'LL VOTE FOR THAT GUY BECAUSE THEY'RE ALL A BUNCH OF CROOKS ANYWAY.
[00:19:25] YEAH, WELL, THAT COMES BACK TO A
[00:19:28] QUESTION I WOULD ASK YOU ABOUT THE MEDIA AND WHAT THE MEDIA
[00:19:31] PLAYS IN THIS. OBVIOUSLY, MEDIA IS VERY DIFFERENT THAN IT WAS IN THE
[00:19:35] 1970S. A LOT OF PEOPLE CAN BE STUCK IN THEIR OWN BUBBLE, WHETHER IT'S
[00:19:39] JUST A CABLE NEWS CHANNELS OR WITH THEIR OWN SOCIAL MEDIA FEEDS.
[00:19:43] SO THE WORLD IS VERY DIFFERENT.
[00:19:45] HOW MUCH DOES THE MEDIA, IN YOUR
[00:19:48] OPINION, HAVE TO TAKE CREDIT OR
[00:19:52] BLAME FOR THE SITUATION? YOU SEE THAT WE'RE IN POLITICS TODAY.
[00:19:55] YES, SOME ARE BOTH. BUT I THINK THE MEDIA IS INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT.
[00:19:59] THERE IS A REASON THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP GOES AFTER THE MEDIA, RIGHT?
[00:20:02] THESE ARE ALL THE CENTERS OF POWER LAW FIRMS, UNIVERSITIES,
[00:20:05] THE MEDIA, FOREIGN ALLIES.
[00:20:08] THERE'S A REASON HE GOES AFTER THEM IS BECAUSE THEY ARE VERY
[00:20:12] INFLUENCE ESSENTIAL. ONE OF THE TOPICS I LOOKED AT OR
[00:20:14] THE ERAS I LOOKED AT IN THE BOOK
[00:20:16] IS THE GILDED AGE, WHICH I THINK
[00:20:18] BEARS A LOT OF RESEMBLANCE TO OUR OWN RIGHT, THE ROBBER BARONS
[00:20:22] AND THE WEALTH DISPARITIES. AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT
[00:20:26] CAUSED THE EXPOSURE AND PUBLIC REACTION OFTEN TO THE ABUSES AND
[00:20:31] EXCESSES OF THE GILDED AGE WAS THE JOURNALIST. THAT'S THE MUCKRAKERS.
[00:20:34] THE REPORTERS, THE AUTHORS WHO EXPOSE THINGS LIKE, YOU KNOW,
[00:20:38] HORRIBLE CONDITIONS OF CHILD
[00:20:40] LABOR IN FACTORIES OR TAINTED FOOD AND DRUGS.
[00:20:44] THE TRUSTS THAT WERE GOUGING
[00:20:48] CONSUMERS, THAT LED TO ANTITRUST LAWS.
[00:20:50] IT WAS JOURNALISTS WHO EXPOSED
[00:20:53] ALL OF THOSE WRONGS THAT LED TO THE PROGRESSIVE ERA AND A NUMBER
[00:20:57] OF REFORMS, ANTITRUST LAWS, FOOD
[00:20:59] AND DRUG SAFETY LAWS, CHILD LABOR LAWS, PRESERVATION OF
[00:21:03] NATURAL RESOURCES. ALL OF THOSE THINGS WERE BROUGHT
[00:21:06] ABOUT BY PUBLIC AWARENESS THROUGH JOURNALISTS. SAME.
[00:21:10] ANOTHER ERA I LOOK AT IS THE CIVIL RIGHTS ERA, WHERE, YOU
[00:21:12] KNOW, MUCH OF AMERICA DIDN'T UNDERSTAND WHAT WAS HAPPENING IN
[00:21:15] THE SOUTH UNTIL THEY SAW TELEVISION IMAGES OF PEOPLE
[00:21:18] BEING SPRAYED WITH FIRE HOSES AND ATTACKED WITH DOGS AND
[00:21:21] BEATEN ON BRIDGES.
[00:21:23] THE MEDIA HAS A REALLY IMPORTANT ROLE TO PLAY.
[00:21:26] AND SO I THINK FOR THOSE WHO
[00:21:29] CAVE, YOU KNOW, LIKE CBS OVER THE 60 MINUTES, REMEMBER THERE
[00:21:32] WAS THIS LAWSUIT THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP FILED ACCUSE CBS OF
[00:21:38] ENGAGING IN CONSUMER FRAUD BY
[00:21:41] EDITING AN INTERVIEW OF KAMALA HARRIS.
[00:21:43] AND THEY ULTIMATELY SETTLED THAT. I DON'T KNOW OF A SINGLE MEDIA
[00:21:47] INTERVIEW, INCLUDING THIS ONE THAT DOESN'T GET EDITED TO SOME
[00:21:51] EXTENT. I MEAN, THE SHOW IS CALLED 60
[00:21:55] MINUTES, NOT 72 MINUTES, RIGHT? NOT 84 MINUTES.
[00:21:58] IT'S GOT TO BE. AND YET THEY THEY SUCCUMB TO
[00:22:02] THAT. THEY THEY. AND WHY? YOU KNOW, THERE'S SOME SPECULATION THAT THEY WANTED TO
[00:22:05] BE ABLE TO COMPLETE MERGERS AND ACQUISITIONS THAT WOULD MAKE
[00:22:09] EVERYBODY EVEN WEALTHIER THAN THEY ALREADY WERE.
[00:22:12] BUT I THINK JOURNALISTS PLAY A REALLY IMPORTANT ROLE.
[00:22:15] AND IF YOU CAN FIND CREDIBLE OUTLETS, I MEAN, CERTAINLY NEW
[00:22:19] HAMPSHIRE PUBLIC RADIO IS ONE OF THEM.
[00:22:21] LIKE OTHER NPR AFFILIATES, THERE'S A REASON THEY WANT TO
[00:22:25] DEFUND PUBLIC RADIO AND THE CORPORATION FOR PUBLIC
[00:22:28] BROADCASTING AND PBS, BECAUSE THESE ARE TRUTH TELLERS. THESE ARE PEOPLE WHO SHARE WITH
[00:22:32] US INFORMATION ABOUT WHAT'S GOING ON IN THE WORLD.
[00:22:36] SO THAT WE CAN MAKE INFORMED CHOICES. REMEMBER, THOMAS JEFFERSON SAID
[00:22:39] SOMETHING LIKE, WOULD WE HAVE
[00:22:41] THE CHOICE BETWEEN A GOVERNMENT,
[00:22:45] A FREE GOVERNMENT AND A FREE PRESS? I SHOULD NOT HESITATE TO CHOOSE THE LATTER.
[00:22:49] IS A FREE PRESS IS SUPER IMPORTANT. WE HAVE TO BE CAREFUL WHERE WE
[00:22:52] GET OUR INFORMATION. RIGHT. IF YOU'RE LOOKING ONLINE AND FOLLOWING SOMEBODY WITH A NAME
[00:22:56] LIKE PATRIOT GIRL, 1776, MAYBE
[00:22:59] WE DON'T TRUST EVERYTHING SHE HAS TO SAY.
[00:23:01] BUT LOOKING AT CREDIBLE SOURCES AND MAKING SURE WE LOOK AT A
[00:23:05] SECOND SOURCE, THOSE ARE REALLY IMPORTANT SO THAT WE HAVE GOOD
[00:23:09] INFORMATION SO WE CAN MAKE INFORMED CHOICES AT THE BALLOT BOX.
[00:23:14] I AGREE WITH YOU COMPLETELY. THE PROBLEM I THINK WHAT WE SEE A LOT IN THIS COUNTRY IS WE DO
[00:23:17] HAVE PEOPLE THAT ARE JUST LOOKING AT SOCIAL MEDIA INFLUENCERS AND ARE PAYING
[00:23:22] ATTENTION TO ONE ISSUE, ONE ISSUE VOTERS WHO AREN'T
[00:23:26] NECESSARILY VERY CIVICALLY ENGAGED. YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE FIXES I
[00:23:29] THINK YOU TALK ABOUT IS OBVIOUSLY CIVIC ENGAGEMENT.
[00:23:34] CAN THAT BE TAUGHT?
[00:23:34] CAN THAT BE CAN THAT BE
[00:23:38] ENCOURAGED MORE? I MEAN, HOW DO WE DO THAT? WELL, AS A CHILD OF THE 70S, I
[00:23:42] GREW UP ON SCHOOLHOUSE ROCK. ANYBODY ELSE REMEMBER
[00:23:46] SCHOOLHOUSE ROCK? RIGHT. I THINK YOU NEED TO REACH PEOPLE WHERE THEY ARE.
[00:23:50] AND THAT'S WHAT SCHOOLHOUSE ROCK DID. ANYBODY DOES KNOW.
[00:23:53] IT WAS A SERIES OF SHORT LITTLE
[00:23:57] CARTOONS THAT, YOU KNOW. SO WHILE YOU'RE WATCHING YOUR
[00:24:00] BUGS BUNNY ON SATURDAY MORNING, I'M JUST A BILL. YEAH, RIGHT.
[00:24:03] THEY DO INTERRUPT IT WITH THESE LITTLE CARTOONS AND SOME OF IT
[00:24:07] WAS ABOUT GRAMMAR, BUT OTHERS WERE ABOUT CIVICS.
[00:24:11] HOW A BILL BECOMES A LAW ABOVE THE CONSTITUTION.
[00:24:14] A NUMBER OF OTHER THINGS. SO I THINK REACHING PEOPLE WHERE THEY ARE IS REALLY IMPORTANT.
[00:24:18] ONE WAY WOULD BE IN SCHOOLS,
[00:24:20] CERTAINLY, AND ONE OF THE GREAT
[00:24:22] TRAGIC COLLATERAL EFFECTS OF THE
[00:24:24] STEM ERA, WHERE WE SPEND A LOT
[00:24:26] OF RESOURCE IS IN PUBLIC SCHOOLS
[00:24:29] ON SCIENCE, TECHNOLOGY, ENGINEERING AND MATH, WHICH ARE
[00:24:33] CERTAINLY IMPORTANT, IS WHAT HAS
[00:24:35] GIVEN WAY IS CIVICS EDUCATION, BECAUSE THERE ISN'T ENOUGH TIME
[00:24:39] IN THE SCHOOL DAY OR ENOUGH RESOURCES. AND SO THAT IS WHAT IS GETTING CUT.
[00:24:43] AND, YOU KNOW, IT'S VERY EASY TO PERSUADE PEOPLE THAT THE
[00:24:48] GOVERNMENT WORKS DIFFERENTLY THAN IT DOES IF THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT THE THREE BRANCHES OF
[00:24:52] GOVERNMENT ARE. RIGHT. YOU KNOW, THEY THINK THE THREE BRANCHES ARE LARRY, MOE AND
[00:24:56] CURLY. YOU CAN GET AWAY WITH ANYTHING.
[00:24:59] J.D. VANCE IS FOND OF POSTING
[00:25:01] THESE THINGS ONLINE. WHENEVER JUDGES RULE AGAINST
[00:25:04] DONALD TRUMP AND SAY THINGS LIKE THE JUDICIARY IS OVERREACHING,
[00:25:08] WHEN THEY TELL THE PRESIDENT HOW TO USE HIS EXECUTIVE AUTHORITY.
[00:25:12] AND THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THE JUDICIARY IS SUPPOSED TO DO. RIGHT.
[00:25:14] AND SO ANYBODY WHO'S HAD BASIC CIVICS EDUCATION WOULD KNOW
[00:25:18] THAT. BUT I THINK, YOU KNOW, THERE ARE LOTS OF GOOD NONPROFITS OUT
[00:25:22] THERE, FOLKS. LET'S HAVE SOME SOCIAL MEDIA INFLUENCERS WHO ARE TALKING
[00:25:26] ABOUT GOOD GOVERNMENT. LET'S HAVE, YOU KNOW, TELEVISION
[00:25:29] SHOWS, RADIO PROGRAMS, OTHER
[00:25:31] WAYS OF HELPING PEOPLE TO LEARN
[00:25:35] ABOUT THE CIVICS IN OUR COUNTRY. THE HISTORY OF OUR COUNTRY.
[00:25:37] AND I THINK IT'S MUCH HARDER TO CON US WHEN WE HAVE THAT KIND OF
[00:25:43] INFORMATION. YEAH, I THINK YOU WRITE AT ONE
[00:25:46] POINT, CITIZENSHIP. YOU KNOW, IT COMES WITH A RESPONSIBILITY TO EDUCATE
[00:25:51] OURSELVES ABOUT ISSUES.
[00:25:53] I DON'T KNOW IF IF MANY IN THE
[00:25:55] ELECTORATE FEEL THAT WAY ANYMORE. I THINK THERE'S A FEELING AT
[00:25:59] LEAST SOMETIMES WHEN I TALK TO
[00:25:59] SOME PEOPLE ABOUT I'VE GOT MINE
[00:26:03] AND I WANT TO HOLD ON TO IT, YOU CAN'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO WITH IT.
[00:26:09] THERE'S A I THINK YOU SAID THIS EARLIER, THERE'S A CYNICISM IN
[00:26:11] AMERICA THAT I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S ALWAYS BEEN THERE OR NOT.
[00:26:15] SO I'M WONDERING IN YOUR OPINION, YOU TEACH STUDENTS, YOU
[00:26:18] TEACH GRADUATE STUDENTS, YOU TEACH LAW. WHAT ARE YOU HEARING FROM THEM?
[00:26:21] WHAT ARE YOU HEARING FROM 20 SOMETHINGS THAT NOW OBVIOUSLY, IT'S A SELF-SELECTED GROUP, RIGHT?
[00:26:25] THEY'VE GONE INTO LAW BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE IN IT. BUT WHAT ARE THEY TELLING YOU
[00:26:28] ABOUT HOW THEY'RE FEELING AND HOW THEY'VE GROWN UP IN THE WORLD? THEY'VE GROWN UP IN?
[00:26:32] YEAH, I THINK THEY'RE ALL IN TRAUMA. I THINK ONE IS, YOU KNOW, THEY
[00:26:35] REFER TO THEM AS THE ANXIOUS GENERATION IN PART BECAUSE THEY
[00:26:39] HAVE SPENT SO MUCH TIME ON SOCIAL MEDIA, WHICH CONSTANTLY
[00:26:43] BOMBARDS YOU WITH ALL THE BAD THINGS IN THE WORLD. RIGHT. THEY GREW UP WITH SEEING SOME OF
[00:26:46] THE METOO MOVEMENT AND LEARNING ABOUT HOW PEOPLE IN THE WORLD
[00:26:49] BEHAVE. THEY GREW UP DURING THE COVID PANDEMIC AND LEARNED ABOUT HOW
[00:26:53] YOUR SOCIAL LIFE CAN BE TAKEN FROM YOU IN AN INSTANT.
[00:26:57] THEY HAVE GROWN UP IN THE WORLD OF, YOU KNOW, SINCE 2016, A
[00:27:02] POLITY OF HATE AND FEAR. AND SO I THINK THAT TAKES A TOLL
[00:27:04] ON A PERSON. BUT I THINK ONE OF THE WAYS THAT
[00:27:09] WE HELP YOUNG PEOPLE IS THEY'RE ALSO VERY CONCERNED ABOUT ISSUES
[00:27:12] LIKE AFFORDABILITY. YOU KNOW, YOUNG PEOPLE, EVEN
[00:27:16] THOSE BECOMING LAWYERS WHO WILL HAVE OPPORTUNITIES WITH AN
[00:27:20] INCOME IF THEY SO CHOOSE, THEY
[00:27:22] ARE WORRIED THAT THEY WILL NOT HAVE THE ABILITY TO, YOU KNOW,
[00:27:26] AFFORD A HOME. THE FIRST THE AVERAGE AGE NOW OF FIRST TIME HOME BUYERS, 38 YEARS
[00:27:30] OLD, BECAUSE IT'S SO DIFFICULT TO BUY A HOME.
[00:27:34] I THINK THAT ONE OF THE WAYS WE CAN OVERCOME THIS MOMENT OF
[00:27:37] CYNICISM IS BY HAVING
[00:27:41] POLITICIANS WITH MORE THAN JUST US VERSUS THEM VISION, BUT A
[00:27:44] VISION OF WHAT'S GOING TO COME NEXT, NOT GOING BACK TO THE WAY
[00:27:47] THINGS WERE, BUT WHAT'S GOING TO COME NEXT.
[00:27:50] AND I THINK SPEAKING TRUTH TO THE WEALTH DISPARITY THAT HAS
[00:27:54] DEVELOPED IN THIS COUNTRY IS A VERY IMPORTANT PART OF THAT
[00:27:58] EQUATION. AND SINCE THE 1980S, CHILDREN REALLY ARE WORSE OFF THAN THEIR
[00:28:02] PARENTS GENERATION. AND OF COURSE, WHAT THE MEGA
[00:28:06] EXTREMISTS WANT TO TELL YOU IS
[00:28:08] IT'S BECAUSE OF DIY OR IT'S BECAUSE OF IMMIGRANTS TAKING
[00:28:11] YOUR JOBS OR IT'S BECAUSE OF
[00:28:14] PREFERENCES FOR THE LGBTQ COMMUNITY OR NONSENSE LIKE THAT.
[00:28:17] IN FACT, IT IS ALL A FUNCTION OF
[00:28:21] THE KINDS OF POLICY THAT HAVE
[00:28:23] BEEN DEVELOPED IN GOVERNMENT SINCE THE 1980S.
[00:28:27] YOU KNOW, THE TAX CUTS FOR
[00:28:30] CORPORATE ACTIONS TO CUT SERVICE
[00:28:32] STATE TAXES, CUTS ON TAXES FOR
[00:28:35] CAPITAL GAINS, THE KINDS OF
[00:28:37] THINGS THAT BENEFIT THE WEALTHY.
[00:28:39] AND SO IS A FAMILY WORSE OFF TODAY THAN THEY WERE WHEN I WAS GROWING UP IN THE 1970S?
[00:28:44] YOU BET THEY WERE RIGHT. WE HAD A HUMBLE FAMILY.
[00:28:48] MY DAD WORKED. MY MOM STAYED HOME WITH THE KIDS
[00:28:51] AND WE COULD AFFORD A HOUSE, TWO CARS ON VACATIONS.
[00:28:53] YOU KNOW, WE LIVED A TRULY MIDDLE CLASS LIFESTYLE.
[00:28:57] AND TODAY THAT THAT JUST ISN'T THERE FOR PEOPLE.
[00:29:00] SO THEY'RE HURTING AND THEY'RE ANGRY. AND IT'S UNDERSTANDABLE.
[00:29:04] AND WE HAVE LEADERS WHO STOKE THAT ANGER AND TRY TO DIVIDE US
[00:29:08] WITH IT. I THINK WHAT WE NEED INSTEAD IS SOMEBODY WHO RECOGNIZES THESE
[00:29:12] WEALTH DISPARITIES AND WHY THEY'RE REALLY THERE AND BRINGS
[00:29:14] TOGETHER AN ALLIANCE OF BOTH
[00:29:18] PROGRESSIVES AND POPULISTS, PEOPLE WHO FEEL LEFT BEHIND IN
[00:29:21] LOTS OF WAYS. THAT IS A POWERFUL ALLIANCE.
[00:29:25] AND THERE'S A REASON WEALTHY PEOPLE HAVE SOUGHT TO DIVIDE
[00:29:28] THEM, DIVIDE AND CONQUER. AND SO YOUNG PEOPLE WHO CARE
[00:29:32] ABOUT ISSUES OF AFFORDABLE
[00:29:34] LIBERTY AND SAVING OUR PLANET, THOSE ARE THE ISSUES THEY CARE ABOUT.
[00:29:38] I THINK THERE'S ROOM FOR AT THE
[00:29:40] TABLE FOR THE ELITES AS WELL AS THE POPULISTS, AND THAT IS THE
[00:29:44] COALITION WE NEED TO BRING TOGETHER. AND I THINK WE'VE SEEN THAT IN THE PAST.
[00:29:48] CERTAINLY IF YOU LOOK AT THE EARLY PART OF THE 20TH CENTURY. YEAH.
[00:29:51] AGAIN, YOU TEACH COURSES IN CRIMINAL LAW, UNIVERSITY OF
[00:29:55] MICHIGAN LAW SCHOOL. SO HOW DO YOU APPROACH TEACHING IN THIS ERA? IT'S A DIFFICULT TIME.
[00:29:59] I KNOW MY COLLEAGUES WHO TEACH CONSTITUTIONAL LAW WILL JOKE
[00:30:02] THAT IT'S BECOME A BIT OF A HISTORY COURSE BECAUSE SOME OF
[00:30:06] THE MATERIALS THEY TALK ABOUT ARE NO LONGER TRUE.
[00:30:10] I TRY TO BE CANDID WITH STUDENTS.
[00:30:13] I TRY TO AVOID POLITICS WITH STUDENTS.
[00:30:16] AND SO, YOU KNOW, WE TALK ABOUT THE DOCTRINE, BUT WE ALSO
[00:30:20] RECOGNIZE CASES IN THE LAW. CERTAINLY, THERE HAVE BEEN
[00:30:22] PLENTY OF OPPORTUNITIES TO TALK ABOUT SOME OF THESE CASES WHEN
[00:30:26] WE HAVE EXAMPLES. BUT STUDENTS WANT TO UNDERSTAND
[00:30:30] ABOUT WHEN THE LAW, ESPECIALLY AT THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT THESE
[00:30:33] DAYS, IS BEING USED IN A WAY THAT IS SO DIFFERENT FROM IN THE PAST.
[00:30:37] I SHARE WITH THEM MY EXPERIENCE WHEN I WORKED AT THE JUSTICE
[00:30:41] DEPARTMENT, AND WE ABIDED BY SOMETHING CALLED THE PRINCIPLES
[00:30:43] OF FEDERAL PROSECUTE IN THAT
[00:30:46] THOSE STILL EXIST, THAT THEY STILL SHOULD BE ABIDED WITH AND
[00:30:50] THAT I'M CONFIDENT THEY WILL BE AGAIN, IN THE FUTURE.
[00:30:51] BUT THEY HAVE RULES LIKE THE THE
[00:30:56] WHITE HOUSE SHOULD NEVER COMMUNICATE WITH THE JUSTICE
[00:30:58] DEPARTMENT ABOUT ANY SPECIFIC CASE.
[00:31:02] CERTAINLY WE'VE SEEN AND I AND I
[00:31:04] POINTED OUT WHEN WE HAVE A
[00:31:06] DIRECT MESSAGE ON TRUTH, SOCIAL
[00:31:08] TO PAM FROM THE PRESIDENT PRESUMABLY BODY SAYING WHY
[00:31:12] HAVEN'T WE INDICTED JIM COMEY OR LETITIA JAMES OR ADAM SCHIFF
[00:31:16] YET? THAT IS A DIRECT VIOLATION OF THOSE NORMS.
[00:31:21] ANOTHER ONE IS PROSECUTORS SHOULD NEVER ALLOW PARTIZAN
[00:31:26] POLITICS TO PLAY ANY ROLE IN A CHARGING DECISION WHEN THEY'RE
[00:31:29] EXERCISING DISCRETION. HARD TO SEE THAT AS BEING TRUE
[00:31:32] WHEN YOU'VE GOT THESE KINDS OF INDICTMENTS. AND FINALLY, ONE THAT IS
[00:31:37] IMPORTANT AND THAT I ALSO SHARE WITH THE STUDENTS IS UNDER THE
[00:31:39] ABA, THE ETHICS STANDARDS AND THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE'S OWN
[00:31:44] POLICY IS EVEN THOUGH A GRAND
[00:31:46] JURY IS PERMITTED TO RETURN AN
[00:31:48] INDICTMENT BASED ONLY ON A
[00:31:50] FINDING OF PROBABLE CAUSE, WHICH IS SIMPLY REASONABLE GROUNDS TO
[00:31:54] BELIEVE A CRIME WAS COMMITTED AND THIS PERSON COMMITTED IT.
[00:31:57] DOJ POLICY REQUIRES A MUCH HIGHER STANDARD.
[00:32:00] IT SAYS A PROSECUTOR SHOULD NOT
[00:32:03] USE ITS AWESOME POWER TO BRING
[00:32:05] AN INDICTMENT, WHICH OF COURSE, PUTS A PERSON THROUGH THE
[00:32:09] WRINGER WHEN THEY ARE CHARGED WITH A CRIME.
[00:32:12] THE EXPENSE OF LEGAL DEFENSE,
[00:32:14] THE EMOTIONAL CHARGE TO THEIR
[00:32:16] FAMILY, TO THEMSELVES, THE STRESS, THE HARM TO THE
[00:32:20] REPUTATION. A PROSECUTOR SHOULD NOT BRING THOSE CHARGES UNLESS THEY
[00:32:25] BELIEVE THE EVIDENCE IS SUFFICIENT TO OBTAIN AND SUSTAIN
[00:32:27] A CONVICTION. THAT MEANS THE MUCH HIGHER
[00:32:31] STANDARD OF GUILT BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT.
[00:32:34] BUT WHAT WE'RE SEEING INSTEAD IN MY OPINION, IN CASES LIKE THE
[00:32:38] BROADVIEW SIX CASE OR THE CASE AGAINST JIM COMEY FOR THE
[00:32:41] SEASHELLS, IS THEY ARE THEY ARE SQUEAKING OUT SOME PROBABLE
[00:32:45] CAUSE. THEY'RE RIGHT. THEY'RE GETTING A GRAND JURY. AND AS WE SAW IN THE BROADVIEW
[00:32:48] SIX CASE, ONLY BY VOUCHING FOR
[00:32:51] SOME OF THEIR WITNESSES OR HAVING CONVERSATIONS WITH THE
[00:32:55] GRAND JURY OUTSIDE THE GRAND JURY ROOM OR DISMISSING GRAND
[00:32:58] JURORS WHEN THEY SHOW SOME SKEPTICISM ON THE CASE. WHOA.
[00:33:01] ALL OF THOSE WOULD BE ATTORNEY MISCONDUCT.
[00:33:05] BUT EVEN THEN, THEY'RE BARELY
[00:33:07] EKING OUT THE PROBABLE CAUSE TO GET AN INDICTMENT.
[00:33:10] THAT LOW STANDARD, BASED ON WHAT ED MARTIN, THE CHIEF OF THE
[00:33:15] WEAPONIZATION WORKING GROUP, CALLS NAME AND SHAME. HE HAS SAID, EVEN IF WE DON'T
[00:33:19] HAVE SUFFICIENT EVIDENCE TO CONVICT DEFENDANT, WE ARE GOING
[00:33:22] TO NAME AND SHAME PEOPLE. THAT IS NOT HOW THE DEPARTMENT
[00:33:25] OF JUSTICE IS SUPPOSED TO WORK. AND I SHARE THAT WITH STUDENTS
[00:33:29] SO THAT THEY CAN LEARN THE PROPER ETHICS. SO IF AND WHEN THEY HAVE THESE
[00:33:33] JOBS, THEY'LL KNOW THE PROPER
[00:33:35] WAY TO DO IT.
[00:33:40] OF COURSE, THAT ASSUMES THERE WILL BE AN ADMINISTRATION THAT
[00:33:43] WILL HIRE THEM TO DO THAT AND NOT PUT THEIR OWN PEOPLE WHO ARE
[00:33:47] GOING TO THE FIXES. OPTIMISTIC BOOK.
[00:33:49] I KNOW I'M GOING TO GET TO THAT. BUT IF WE JUST FOLLOW THE FACTS
[00:33:53] OF THE CASE, SCHEDULING OUT A
[00:33:56] CASE, I MEAN, DO YOU SEE ANY
[00:34:01] WEAKENING OF THIS THIS POPULIST WAVE, THOUGH? I MEAN, YOU KNOW, WE THINK WE'VE SEEN SHIFTS.
[00:34:04] WE SEE LAWYERS LIKE, YOU KNOW,
[00:34:06] MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE CHANGING HER TUNE AFTER THE FAILURE TO
[00:34:09] RELEASE THE EPSTEIN FILES. WE'RE SEEING SOME REPUBLICAN
[00:34:13] SENATORS DO A LITTLE MORE PUSH BACK, ESPECIALLY WHEN IT COMES TO THE WAR IN IRAQ. ARE YOU SEEING SOME SIGNS THAT
[00:34:17] THIS POPULIST WAVE IS BREAKING?
[00:34:19] I DO. YOU KNOW, AND IT REMINDS ME OF
[00:34:23] EVERY FRAUD CASE I EVER PROSECUTED.
[00:34:27] EVENTUALLY, VICTIMS CATCH ON TO THE CONMAN BECAUSE EVENTUALLY
[00:34:30] THEY REALIZE HE IS NOT
[00:34:33] DELIVERING WHAT HE PROMISED.
[00:34:35] I'VE SEEN IT WITH CASES IN, YOU
[00:34:37] KNOW, INVESTOR FRAUD OR REAL ESTATE FRAUD WHERE PEOPLE
[00:34:41] PROMISE YOU THEY'RE GOING TO GIVE YOU THIS HUGE RETURN ON INVESTMENT OR YOU'RE GOING TO
[00:34:44] GET, YOU KNOW, THIS BEAUTIFUL LAND OR PROPERTY OR WHATEVER IT IS.
[00:34:48] EVENTUALLY PEOPLE REALIZE I DIDN'T GET WHAT I PAID FOR. AND I THINK PEOPLE ARE COMING
[00:34:52] AROUND NOW. THERE ARE PROBABLY SOME PEOPLE
[00:34:55] WHO, AS DONALD TRUMP ONCE SAID, YOU COULD YOU COULD SHOOT A PERSON ON FIFTH AVENUE AND THEY
[00:35:00] WOULD NEVER CHANGE THEIR MIND ABOUT HIM BECAUSE THEY YOU KNOW,
[00:35:03] THERE IS A PSYCHOLOGICAL ASPECT OF I CAN'T ADMIT I WAS WRONG.
[00:35:07] BUT I DO THINK WE ARE SEEING
[00:35:09] SOME OF HIS SUPPORT DIMINISH HIS
[00:35:13] PULL PULL DATA. BUT WHAT DO YOU CALL IT? HIS APPROVAL RATING IS IS PLUMMETING.
[00:35:16] AND I THINK IT'S BECAUSE THEY REALIZE, YOU KNOW, THE PRICE OF EGGS HAS NOT GONE DOWN.
[00:35:20] IN FACT, INFLATION IS UP.
[00:35:21] THE COST OF GAS IS, YOU KNOW, $5 A GALLON.
[00:35:25] HE SAID WE'D HAVE NO MORE FOREIGN WARS.
[00:35:27] AND HE ATTACKED VENEZUELA AND NOW IRAN.
[00:35:29] AND WE'VE BEEN IN A WAR WITH THEM FOR FOUR MONTHS.
[00:35:33] HE PROMISED TO REVEAL THE EPSTEIN FILES, AND THERE'S STILL
[00:35:37] REDACTIONS ON MANY OF THEM. WE DIDN'T GET WHAT WE WERE
[00:35:40] PROMISED, AND I THINK THAT IF PEOPLE ARE BEING HONEST WITH
[00:35:44] THEMSELVES, THEY WILL RECOGNIZE THAT THERE IS NO THERE THERE
[00:35:47] THERE'S NO POLICY IN THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.
[00:35:49] IT IS ALL ABOUT A POWER GRAB,
[00:35:52] ENRICHMENT FOR THE PRESIDENT BY
[00:35:54] EXPLOITING DIVISIONS IN SOCIETY,
[00:35:57] GETTING US TO BE ANGRY WITH EACH
[00:35:59] OTHER, ALL THE WHILE HE IS PICKING OUR POCKETS.
[00:36:03] THERE'S SEVERAL QUESTIONS WE
[00:36:05] HAVE FROM THE AUDIENCE, AND I'D LIKE TO GET TO THOSE.
[00:36:09] THIS THIS ACTUALLY TIES INTO WHAT YOU WERE JUST SAYING.
[00:36:11] HOW MUCH IMPACT HAS HAS THE READING INTO INEQUALITY OF
[00:36:16] INCOME AND WEALTH DISTRIBUTION HAD AND THE ABILITY TO CORRUPT THE GOVERNMENT?
[00:36:19] I THINK WE TALKED A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT EARLIER. YES. WELL, I THINK THAT ONE OF THE
[00:36:23] THINGS WE'VE SEEN IN THIS ADMINISTRATION IS THE TECH
[00:36:27] BILLIONAIRES GRAVITATING TOWARD
[00:36:28] THIS PRESIDENT IN HIS PRIOR TERM.
[00:36:32] PEOPLE LIKE JEFF BEZOS AND MARK ZUCKERBERG SPOKE OUT AGAINST HIM.
[00:36:36] THEY REFERRED TO, YOU KNOW, HIM
[00:36:39] AS ENGAGING IN FALSE CLAIMS.
[00:36:42] THEY DID FACT CHECKING ON THEIR
[00:36:47] PLATFORMS AND NOT ANYMORE. THEY HAVE COME AROUND.
[00:36:49] I THINK THEY'VE GOTTEN SMART,
[00:36:52] TOO, TO A DEGREE AND REALIZED
[00:36:54] THAT THE WAY TO CASH IN IS BY
[00:36:56] JUST GOING ALONG TO GET ALONG.
[00:36:58] AND SO WE SAW THEM SITTING FRONT
[00:37:01] AND CENTER AT THE PRESIDENT'S SECOND INAUGURAL, AND HE WAS
[00:37:05] ONLY TOO HAPPY TO GIVE THEM FRONT ROW SEATS TO DISPLAY THEM LIKE TROPHIES.
[00:37:10] ELON MUSK OF COURSE. BUT I THINK ALL OF THEM REALIZED
[00:37:12] THAT ULTIMATELY NOBODY GETS TO USURP THE BOSS.
[00:37:17] THERE'S ONE PERSON WHO'S IN CHARGE. IT REMINDS ME OF A CASE I
[00:37:19] PROSECUTED AGAINST FORMER DETROIT MAYOR KWAME KILPATRICK.
[00:37:23] IN THAT CASE, HE WAS EXTORTING
[00:37:27] BUSINESSES. YOU HAD TO PAY A KICKBACK IF YOU WANTED TO DO BUSINESS WITH THE
[00:37:30] CITY OF DETROIT. AND THERE WAS, YOU KNOW, ONE WHO
[00:37:33] REALLY EXEMPLIFIED THIS IDEA. YOU KNOW, THEY THOUGHT THAT IF
[00:37:37] YOU PAY OFF THE EXTORTION
[00:37:40] PIANIST ONE TIME, THEN EVERYTHING WILL BE FINE. I'M GOING TO MAKE MY PAYMENT AND
[00:37:44] EVERYTHING WILL BE GREAT. AND I THINK WE'RE SEEING THIS
[00:37:46] WITH SOME OF THESE TECH BILLIONAIRES. ELON MUSK RIGHT.
[00:37:50] I'M GOING TO SUPPORT THIS PRESIDENT AND THEN I'M GOING TO BE ON EASY STREET BECAUSE I'VE
[00:37:54] GOT MY STARLINK AND I'VE GOT MY SPACE X AND I'VE GOT ALL THIS
[00:37:58] GREAT STUFF AND I'M GOING TO MAKE BILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN GOVERNMENT CONTRACTS.
[00:38:01] SO I'M GOING TO HAVE MY PAL IN THE WHITE HOUSE IN THIS CASE
[00:38:05] INVOLVING THE DETROIT MAYOR,
[00:38:07] THERE WAS A CONTRACTOR WHO PAID
[00:38:10] A BRIBE, A KICKBACK, BECAUSE HE WANTED A DEAL.
[00:38:12] HE HAD LOST BUSINESS CONTRACTS WITH THE CITY BEFORE BECAUSE HE
[00:38:16] HAD REFUSED. AND FINALLY, HE REALIZED HE HAD EMPLOYEES TO PAY.
[00:38:20] HE HAD FAMILIES, YOU KNOW, BILLS
[00:38:22] TO PAY. AND SO HE AGREED TO PAY WHAT HE
[00:38:26] CONSIDERED A SMALL KICKBACK IN EXCHANGE FOR THIS TENDER DOLLAR CONTRACT.
[00:38:29] BUT WHAT HE REALIZED WAS THE EXTORTIONIST ALWAYS COMES BACK
[00:38:33] FOR MORE BECAUSE THEY WOULD KEEP COMING BACK AND SAY, I NEED MORE
[00:38:37] MONEY, I'D NEED MORE MONEY, I NEED MORE MONEY. AND SO HE WAS NEVER SATISFIED
[00:38:41] WITH WITH THE INITIAL PAYMENT. AND SO HE LEARNED HIS LESSON THE HARD WAY.
[00:38:46] I THINK IN THE SAME WAY, YOU KNOW, ELON MUSK WITH HIS DOGE,
[00:38:48] THEIR RELATIONSHIP LASTED A FEW MONTHS.
[00:38:51] HE MADE SOME CUTS, SOME DISASTROUS THINGS LIKE KILLING
[00:38:56] USAID AND THEN THEY PARTED WAYS
[00:38:58] OVER THE BIG, BEAUTIFUL BILL AND
[00:39:02] SUDDENLY ELON MUSK WAS ON THE OUTS.
[00:39:05] AND REMEMBER, HE HE THREW THE FLAME OUT THERE. HE WENT NUCLEAR WHEN HE SAID
[00:39:09] TRUMP'S WORRIED ABOUT THE EPSTEIN FILES.
[00:39:12] AND THAT'S WHEN THEY SEVERED ALL TIES.
[00:39:15] AND SO I THINK THEY REALIZE ULTIMATELY THAT THERE'S ONLY ONE WINNER HERE.
[00:39:19] IT IS THE PERSON CALLING THE SHOTS AT THE TOP. SO EVEN THOSE WHO I THINK
[00:39:25] BELIEVE THAT THEY'RE GOING TO BE OKAY, THEY'RE GOING TO CASH IN.
[00:39:28] THEY'RE GOING TO LEARN THE HARD WAY THAT EVEN THEY DON'T BENEFIT
[00:39:31] IN THIS SOCIETY.
[00:39:34] HERE'S AN AUDIENCE QUESTION AS WELL. HOW LONG WILL IT TAKE FOR THE
[00:39:38] LEGACY OF INCOMPETENCE AND IDEOLOGUES TO SUBSIDE AFTER THE REGIME ENDS?
[00:39:42] BOY, THAT'S A REALLY GREAT QUESTION, AND I DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER.
[00:39:45] I WORRY VERY MUCH ABOUT THIS. AND IT'S GETTING WORSE ALL THE TIME.
[00:39:49] WE HAVE NOT YET SEEN THE SUPREME COURT'S DECISION IN A COUPLE OF
[00:39:52] CASES THAT ARE BEFORE IT AND ARE WE'RE GOING TO SEE IN THE NEXT
[00:39:56] WEEK OR TWO. I THINK THAT IS THE CASE OF THE
[00:39:59] FIRING OF AN FTC COMMISSIONER
[00:40:02] AND THE FIRING OF A FEDERAL RESERVE BOARD GOVERNOR.
[00:40:05] YOU KNOW, SINCE 1883, WHEN CONGRESS PASSED THE PENDLETON
[00:40:09] ACT, WE HAVE HAD IN THIS COUNTRY WHAT I CONSIDER THE CROWN JEWEL
[00:40:13] OF GOVERNMENT, AND THAT IS AN INDEPENDENT PROFESSIONAL CIVIL SERVICE.
[00:40:17] IT USED TO BE, OF COURSE, A SPOILS SYSTEM WHERE THE
[00:40:20] PRESIDENT WOULD REWARD HIS PALS, HIS DONORS WITH A NEW JOB.
[00:40:24] SURE YOU WANT A JOB IN MY ADMINISTRATION AS THE HEAD OF THE PORT AUTHORITY.
[00:40:28] COME ON IN. AND HE WOULD ACCEPT BRIBES AND
[00:40:31] PUT PEOPLE IN THESE POSITIONS OF AUTHORITY.
[00:40:33] BUT WHEN CONGRESS CREATED THE
[00:40:35] PROFESSIONAL CIVIL SERVICE, IT MEANT PEOPLE WERE HIRED ON THE
[00:40:39] BASIS OF MERIT. THEY COULD NOT BE FIRED WITHOUT
[00:40:42] MISCONDUCT, AND THEY WERE ABLE TO DEVELOP EXPERTISE AND INDEPENDENCE.
[00:40:46] TRUMP REFERS TO THESE PEOPLE AS THE DEEP STATE.
[00:40:49] THEY ARE THE PEOPLE WHO DON'T GO ALONG WITH EVERYTHING HE WANTS TO DO.
[00:40:53] THEY FOLLOW THE LAW. THEY FOLLOW THE SCIENCE.
[00:40:55] THEY FOLLOW THEIR EXPERTISE.
[00:40:57] AND SO HE WANTS TO RID OUR GOVERNMENT OF THEM.
[00:41:01] HE RECENTLY PASSED SOMETHING CALLED SCHEDULE F THAT RECLASSIFIED 8000 FEDERAL
[00:41:07] EMPLOYEES AS AT WILL EMPLOYEES. THESE ARE PEOPLE WHO HAVE JOBS.
[00:41:09] THAT INCLUDES SOME POLICYMAKING. BUT THESE TWO SUPREME COURT
[00:41:13] OPINIONS ARE GOING TO ADDRESS WHAT IS REFERRED TO AS THE
[00:41:17] UNITARY EXECUTIVE THEORY.
[00:41:19] THE IDEA THAT THE VESTING CLAUSE OF THE CONSTITUTION VESTS ALL
[00:41:23] EXECUTIVE POWER IN A PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, AND THAT
[00:41:26] MEANS HE CAN HIRE AND FIRE ANYONE HE WANTS IN THE EXECUTIVE
[00:41:30] BRANCH. WE DON'T KNOW WHAT THE WAY THE COURT WILL COME OUT. IT APPEARS TO ME THAT THEY ARE
[00:41:36] IN WHEN IT COMES TO FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSIONERS, EVEN THOUGH
[00:41:39] IT MIGHT REQUIRE OVERTURNING A CASE FROM 1935 THAT RULED JUST
[00:41:42] THE OPPOSITE WAY, EXCEPT THEY
[00:41:46] SEEM TO BE WILLING TO MAKE AN
[00:41:48] EXCEPTION THAT TRUMP CAN FIRE ANYBODY WHO WANTS, EXCEPT FOR
[00:41:51] THE GOVERNORS OF THE FEDERAL RESERVE BOARD, WHO SET INTEREST
[00:41:55] RATES BECAUSE THAT MIGHT SCREW
[00:41:55] UP ALL THE MONEY.
[00:42:00] WHAT DO YOU THINK? YOUNG PEOPLE SHOULD BE DOING TO
[00:42:03] HELP COMBAT THE GROWTH OF FASCISM IN GOVERNMENT? AND HOW CAN WE BEST GET
[00:42:07] INVOLVED? OH, I'M SO GLAD TO HEAR THAT. YOU KNOW, FOR YOUNG PEOPLE.
[00:42:10] BUT ALL PEOPLE, IT'S NOT JUST YOUNG PEOPLE.
[00:42:13] BUT I KNOW YOU HAVE A PARTICULAR
[00:42:15] STAKE IN THIS BECAUSE YOU'VE GOT
[00:42:17] A LOT OF YEARS LEFT TO LIVE IN THIS COUNTRY.
[00:42:21] I THINK THERE ARE A LOT OF THINGS THAT WE THAT PEOPLE CAN DO IMMEDIATELY. THE FIX TALKS ABOUT SOME
[00:42:25] INSTITUTIONAL THINGS, BUT ALSO THINGS THAT WE THE PEOPLE CAN DO
[00:42:29] RIGHT NOW. YOU KNOW, CERTAINLY WE CAN GET
[00:42:33] OUT THERE AND ENGAGE IN PEACEFUL PROTEST. I DON'T KNOW IF ANY OF YOU
[00:42:37] PARTICIPATED IN ANY OF THE NO KINGS PROTESTS.
[00:42:42] IT'S. I THINK THESE ARE INCREDIBLY EFFECTIVE.
[00:42:46] THERE IS A RESEARCHER AT HARVARD IN POLITICAL SCIENCE NAMED ERIKA
[00:42:51] CHENOWITH, AND SHE HAS STUDIED REGIME CHANGE IN HUNDREDS OF COUNTRIES.
[00:42:54] AND SHE HAS CONCLUDED THAT IF
[00:42:58] ONLY 3.5% OF THE PUBLIC ENGAGES
[00:43:00] IN PEACEFUL PROTEST, THEY CAN
[00:43:02] EFFECT REGIME CHANGE.
[00:43:05] AND THE REASON IS THAT IT HAS A
[00:43:09] EXPONENTIAL CASCADING EFFECTS ON OTHERS.
[00:43:13] SO I KNOW SOMETIMES, YOU KNOW, IT SEEMS LIKE IT'S ALL THE SAME
[00:43:15] OLD PEOPLE OUT THERE, BUT LIKE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS, IF NOT
[00:43:19] MILLIONS OF PEOPLE HAVE BEEN PARTICIPATING IN THESE PROTESTS.
[00:43:22] I HAD A CHANCE TO ATTEND ONE IN
[00:43:26] GETTYSBURG, PENNSYLVANIA, AND IT WAS SUCH A GREAT CROSS-SECTION
[00:43:30] OF AMERICAN PEOPLE. THERE WAS A PRIEST THERE AND HIS
[00:43:32] PRIEST COLLAR, YOU KNOW, HOLDING A SIGN THAT SAID SOMETHING LIKE
[00:43:36] IN AMERICA, THE ONLY MONARCHS SHOULD BE BUTTERFLIES.
[00:43:39] LIKE, YEAH, IT WAS GREAT, GREAT STUFF. AND, YOU KNOW, A HIGH SCHOOL
[00:43:42] TEACHER WITH HER STUDENTS IN IT, YOU KNOW, A GUY IN A UNICORN COSTUME.
[00:43:45] IT WAS A JOYFUL EXPRESSION OF DEMOCRACY, OF PEOPLE COMING
[00:43:49] TOGETHER. SO WE CAN CERTAINLY DO THAT. BUT YOU DON'T HAVE TO WAIT FOR
[00:43:52] SOMETHING TO GET ORGANIZED LIKE THAT. IF YOU'RE LOOKING FOR A PLACE TO
[00:43:55] PLUG IN, THERE'S SOME REALLY GREAT ORGANIZATIONS.
[00:43:58] YOU KNOW, YOUR LOCAL PARTY
[00:44:00] AFFILIATES FOR YOUR CITY, YOUR COUNTY AND YOUR CONGRESSIONAL
[00:44:04] DISTRICT ALL HAVE ORGANIZED OR ORGANIZATIONS THAT ARE LOOKING
[00:44:07] FOR VOLUNTEERS TO KNOCK ON DOORS AND WRITE POSTCARDS OR WORK ON
[00:44:11] PHONE BANKS AND DELIVER YARD SIGNS.
[00:44:13] THERE IS ALSO ORGANIZATIONS THAT ARE JUST ABOUT GOOD GOVERNANCE
[00:44:17] AND DEMOCRACY BUILDING, LIKE THE LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS AND
[00:44:21] INDIVISIBLE CHAPTERS.
[00:44:23] THEY'RE ALL OVER THE COUNTRY AND THEY'RE JUST LOOKING FOR PEOPLE
[00:44:26] TO HELP BUILD OUT GOOD DEMOCRACY.
[00:44:30] YOU KNOW, THE LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS, OF COURSE, WAS FOUNDED WHEN WOMEN GOT THE RIGHT TO VOTE IN 1920.
[00:44:34] AND THERE WERE CRITICS WHO SAID THEY WON'T KNOW WHO TO VOTE FOR.
[00:44:37] SO THE LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS GOT TOGETHER TO PREPARE GOOD
[00:44:39] INFORMATION ABOUT THAT CANDIDATE.
[00:44:44] FORUMS, VOTER GUIDES WITH JUST INFORMATION ABOUT THE
[00:44:46] BIOGRAPHICAL BACKGROUND OF CANDIDATES AND WHERE THEY STAND ON ISSUES.
[00:44:50] THEY NEED VOLUNTEERS TO HELP THEM WITH THAT WORK.
[00:44:53] THAT'S GREAT WORK THAT WE CAN ALL DO.
[00:44:56] WE CAN VOTE.
[00:44:58] WE CAN DRIVE PEOPLE TO THE POLLS.
[00:45:02] WE CAN RUN FOR OFFICE OURSELVES. IF YOU'RE INTERESTED, THERE'S A
[00:45:05] GREAT ORGANIZATION CALLED RUN FOR SOMETHING THAT HELPS YOU.
[00:45:09] IF YOU SAY, I DON'T KNOW HOW TO RUN FOR SOMETHING. THEY'LL TEACH YOU.
[00:45:12] THEY HAVE TRAINING PROGRAMS AND HELP YOU WORK YOUR WAY UP THE
[00:45:16] CHAIN. YOU CAN WORK ON A CAMPAIGN. I KNOW SOMETIMES WE THINK ABOUT
[00:45:19] I GOT TO WORK ON A CAMPAIGN FOR THE PRESIDENT OR A SENATOR, BUT
[00:45:22] MAN, THERE ARE CANDIDATES IN ALL LEVELS OF GOVERNMENT WHO NEED
[00:45:25] YOUR HELP. COUNTY CLERKS WHO RUN OUR ELECTIONS.
[00:45:29] WE NEED GOOD PEOPLE IN THOSE JOBS.
[00:45:31] SO LOTS OF GOOD THINGS THAT WE CAN DO OURSELVES.
[00:45:35] AND THE ONE THING THAT'S THE EASIEST THAT WE CAN DO TODAY IS
[00:45:39] TALK TO THE PEOPLE IN OUR SPHERE OF INFLUENCE.
[00:45:42] PEOPLE LISTEN TO OTHERS THAT THEY TRUST AND SHARE WITH THEM
[00:45:46] THE INFORMATION THAT CONCERNS YOU AND LET THEM KNOW WHAT
[00:45:50] MATTERS. THERE MAY BE SOME HARD CORE PEOPLE OUT THERE WHO WILL NEVER
[00:45:53] BE CONVINCED OF WHAT'S GOING ON IN THE DANGERS OF IT.
[00:45:56] BUT THERE ARE LOTS OF PEOPLE WHO JUST AREN'T PAYING ATTENTION. WE TALKED ABOUT THAT, RIGHT?
[00:45:59] THE CYNICAL PEOPLE. THE PEOPLE. WHO ARE YOU KNOW, BUSY TONIGHT
[00:46:03] WATCHING THE CAGE FIGHT, THE
[00:46:07] PEOPLE WHO I KNOW YOU'RE ALL ANXIOUS TO GET OUT AND GO SEE IT.
[00:46:11] RIGHT. WE NEED TO JUST REMIND THEM WHAT'S AT STAKE. AND SO TALK TO YOUR FRIENDS.
[00:46:15] YOU KNOW, YOUNG PEOPLE, AS IMPORTANT AS YOU ARE, STILL VOTE
[00:46:19] IN VERY LOW PERCENTAGE AGES. GET YOUR FRIENDS TO GO OUT AND VOTE.
[00:46:23] THAT'D BE A GREAT THING TO DO.
[00:46:29] SPEAKING OF ENGAGEMENT, IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT CIVIC ENGAGEMENT. I THINK WHEN YOU'RE TALKING
[00:46:33] ABOUT POLITICS, IT'S LOADED NO MATTER WHAT. SO WHAT REALLY REALISTICALLY CAN
[00:46:36] WE DO TO TALK TO SOMEONE, FRIEND
[00:46:40] OR FAMILY MEMBER, ANYONE THAT WE
[00:46:42] KNOW WHO MAY BE ON THAT OPPOSITE SIDE THINKING THAT THIS IS TRUMP
[00:46:46] DERANGEMENT SYNDROME? MAYBE THEY LIKE LIKE THE GUY FOR
[00:46:50] WHATEVER REASON, OR MAYBE THEY JUST THINK THAT IT'S THIS IS OVERBLOWN.
[00:46:53] IT'S NOT THAT BAD.
[00:46:55] YOUR ARGUMENT OBVIOUSLY IS IT IS THIS IS A ONCE IN A LIFETIME
[00:46:59] MOMENT. WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO THEM? HOW DO YOU ENGAGE THEM?
[00:47:03] HOW DO YOU TALK WITH THEM? WELL, CERTAINLY IN THIS COUNTRY,
[00:47:06] WE'RE ALL ENTITLED TO OUR OWN OPINIONS AND OUR OWN VIEWPOINTS.
[00:47:08] AND THERE MAY BE POLICY THAT THEY PREFER FROM THE REPUBLICAN
[00:47:12] PARTY, AND THAT'S FINE. YOU KNOW, I DON'T CARE IF YOU'RE A DEMOCRAT OR A REPUBLICAN.
[00:47:15] THERE ARE VALID POLICY CHOICES THAT WE CAN MAKE.
[00:47:19] BUT I DO THINK THAT THERE ARE ISSUES WITH REGARD TO THIS
[00:47:22] PARTICULAR PRESIDENT THAT THAT
[00:47:24] WHETHER IT'S THE CORRUPTION OR
[00:47:26] THE CRUELTY OR THE CHAOS OF CHOOSING A CABINET BASED ON
[00:47:32] FEALTY INSTEAD OF COMPETENCE, THAT IS REALLY HARMING OUR COUNTRY.
[00:47:35] AND SO TO TALK TO THOSE PEOPLE, I THINK YOU NEED TO BEGIN BY
[00:47:40] LISTENING, ASKING WHY, YOU KNOW, WHY DO YOU SUPPORT THIS PRESIDENT OR WHAT ISSUES ARE
[00:47:44] MOST IMPORTANT TO YOU WHEN YOU VOTE? AND LISTENING AND MAYBE EVEN
[00:47:47] ASKING THEM?
[00:47:49] DO YOU HAVE ANY EVIDENCE THAT I CAN READ TO HELP ME BETTER
[00:47:53] UNDERSTAND AND YOUR PERSPECTIVE AND WHERE YOU'RE COMING FROM? AND YOU HAVE TO DO THAT.
[00:47:57] YOU HAVE TO DO THAT WORK. AND ONCE YOU DO, MAYBE THAT
[00:48:00] CREATES AN OPENING TO SHARE WITH THEM. HEY, I READ WHAT YOU ASKED ME TO
[00:48:04] READ AND IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THIS IS MISGUIDED.
[00:48:10] I'VE READ SOMETHING THAT SAYS DEAD PEOPLE AND IMMIGRANTS ARE
[00:48:13] NOT VOTING IN LARGE NUMBERS IN OUR ELECTIONS FOR EXAMPLE.
[00:48:18] WOULD YOU READ AN ARTICLE THAT
[00:48:19] THAT I HAVE READ THAT CONVINCED ME OTHERWISE?
[00:48:23] AND MAYBE BECAUSE YOU TOOK THE FIRST STEP OF READING WHAT THEY
[00:48:27] SUGGESTED OR LISTENING TO WHAT THEY HAD TO SAY, THEY'LL BE WILLING TO LISTEN TO YOU.
[00:48:31] BUT I THINK IT HAS TO COME FROM RESPECT AND CURIOSITY.
[00:48:34] AND IT MAY BE THAT BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE STUBBORN AND BECAUSE
[00:48:37] PEOPLE DON'T LIKE TO ADMIT THEY'RE WRONG OR PEOPLE HAVE STRONG OPINIONS, YOU MAY NOT
[00:48:40] CHANGE THEIR MIND OR THEY MAY NOT ADMIT YOU'VE CHANGED THEIR MIND. BUT IF YOU CAN AT LEAST PLANT A
[00:48:46] SEED, YOU MAY BE ABLE TO BEGIN A DIALOG WITH THAT PERSON.
[00:48:49] OR THEY MAY WALK AWAY THINKING,
[00:48:52] HUH, MAYBE I OUGHT TO RETHINK WHERE I STAND ON THIS.
[00:48:56] WHAT'S THE MOST SURPRISING
[00:48:59] RESPONSE YOU'VE GOTTEN TO YOUR WRITING? EITHER YOUR FIRST BOOK OR THIS
[00:49:04] BOOK? THE MOST SURPRISE RESPONSE I
[00:49:07] HAVE RECEIVED. HMM. I DON'T KNOW.
[00:49:10] I MEAN, I SUPPOSE I GET, YOU
[00:49:14] KNOW, SOCIAL MEDIA COMMENTS ABOUT IT SOMETIMES.
[00:49:18] IT'S VERY KIND AND SOMETIMES IT'S VERY NASTY.
[00:49:21] AND SO MAYBE THAT'S WHAT IT IS,
[00:49:23] IS THAT HOW VIGOROUS THE DEBATE
[00:49:27] CAN BE OUT THERE?
[00:49:29] AND HOW SOME OF IT FEELS SO, YOU
[00:49:31] KNOW, RUSSIAN BOT DRIVEN? YEAH.
[00:49:35] PEOPLE CALLING ME NAMES CLEARLY
[00:49:37] HAVEN'T READ THE BOOK, BUT WANT
[00:49:40] TO PIGEONHOLE ME INTO A PARTICULAR CATEGORY.
[00:49:44] SIMPLY BECAUSE I HAVE EXPRESSED SOME VIEWS OPPOSING THE CURRENT
[00:49:48] PRESIDENT.
[00:49:48] YOU KNOW, I'M A VERY MODERATE
[00:49:52] PERSON IN MY VIEWS. I'M I'M VERY PRO LAW IN ORDER
[00:49:56] PERSON. I'VE SPENT MY CAREER AS A PROSECUTOR.
[00:49:58] AND SO IT IS UNFAMILIAR TO ME TO
[00:50:00] BE CAST AS A LUNATIC, LEFT WING HIPPIE.
[00:50:04] BUT, YOU KNOW, WE I'LL TAKE IT.
[00:50:08] MAYBE. MAYBE I WEAR IT AS A BADGE OF HONOR.
[00:50:11] I'M IN PUBLIC RADIO.
[00:50:13] I KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THAT.
[00:50:16] SOMETHING ABOUT THE HAIR YOU
[00:50:21] ALWAYS DO. PODCAST SISTERS IN LAW. I KNOW.
[00:50:24] I'VE ENJOYED. I'VE BEEN ENJOYING LISTENING TO THAT LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS.
[00:50:28] TELL ME MORE ABOUT IT. HOW DID YOU COME BECOME A PODCASTER? OH, THANK YOU.
[00:50:31] WELL, WHAT IS THIS? PODCASTING? THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT SO MUCH.
[00:50:34] DOESN'T EVERYONE HAVE A PODCAST THESE DAYS? YOU SAID IT WAS MANDATORY.
[00:50:38] I DIDN'T KNOW I HAD AN OPTION. SO THE OTHER CO-HOST, JILL WINE
[00:50:44] BANKS, FORMER WATERGATE
[00:50:46] PROSECUTOR JOYCE VANCE, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY, WHO I KNEW FROM
[00:50:49] MY DAYS AS A U.S. ATTORNEY DURING THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION,
[00:50:53] AND KIMBERLY ATKINS STORE, A LAWYER TURNED JOURNALIST FOR THE
[00:50:56] BOSTON GLOBE, ARE MY THREE CO-HOSTS. ALL FOUR OF US ARE LEGAL
[00:51:01] ANALYSTS FOR THE STATION FORMERLY KNOWN AS MSNBC, NOW
[00:51:05] KNOWN AS ME.
[00:51:07] NOW AND A PODCAST PRODUCER ACTUALLY CAME TO US AND SAID,
[00:51:11] HOW WOULD YOU LIKE TO HAVE A
[00:51:12] PODCAST WHERE THE FOUR OF YOU WOULD GET TOGETHER TO TALK ABOUT
[00:51:16] LEGAL ISSUES, BUT PERHAPS A DEEPER DIVE THAN YOU HAVE AN
[00:51:19] OPPORTUNITY TO DO ON TELEVISION WHERE YOU GET A SEGMENT OF MAYBE, YOU KNOW, 5 TO 10
[00:51:23] MINUTES. IT COULD BE, YOU KNOW, AN HOUR. SO YOU COULD DIVE A LITTLE
[00:51:27] DEEPER AND TALK ABOUT THAT. THEY SAID THINK OF IT AS THE
[00:51:30] VIEW FOR THE THINKING WOMAN.
[00:51:34] AND WE SAID, WELL, WE'D LIKE TO APPEAL TO MEN AND WOMEN.
[00:51:36] BUT THEY SAID, ALL RIGHT, WELL, WHAT DO YOU THINK? WE SAID, WELL, WE'LL GIVE IT A
[00:51:40] TRY AND WE'LL SEE HOW IT WORKS. AND WE JUST LOVE IT.
[00:51:43] ONE IS WE REALLY LOVE EACH OTHER. WE'RE VERY FOND OF EACH OTHER
[00:51:47] AND I REALLY RESPECT THE VIEWPOINTS OF THE OTHER THREE.
[00:51:49] WE SOMETIMES DIFFER. WE'VE GOT SOME GENERATIONAL
[00:51:53] DIVIDE, SOME RACIAL DIVIDES AND GEOGRAPHIC DIVIDES AMONG US.
[00:51:56] AND SO I THINK SOMETIMES THAT BRINGS DIFFERENT JUST DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVES.
[00:51:59] SO WE'LL TALK ABOUT ISSUES IN THE NEWS. WE'RE TRYING TO INFORM
[00:52:03] LISTENERS, BUT ALSO SHARE SOME ANALYSIS AND PERSPECTIVE.
[00:52:06] AND I'LL TELL YOU, I CAN'T. WE RECORD LATE FRIDAY
[00:52:10] AFTERNOONS. I SO LOOK FORWARD TO THE END OF THE WEEK.
[00:52:13] WE HAVE SOME LAUGHS, BUT IT'S ALSO A CHANCE TO SORT OF PROCESS
[00:52:17] WHAT THEY'RE THINKING. I SHARE WHAT I'M THINKING, BUT
[00:52:20] THEY GIVE ME SOME FOOD FOR THOUGHT WITH WHAT THEY'RE THINKING ABOUT ISSUES AS WELL.
[00:52:24] THEY'RE ANSWERING LISTENER QUESTIONS. WE DO.
[00:52:26] IT IS OUR FAVORITE PART. WE ANSWER LISTENER QUESTIONS,
[00:52:29] YOU KNOW, SORT OF LIKE WHAT WE'RE DOING NOW.
[00:52:32] IT'S GREAT TO LISTEN TO, TO ANSWER LISTENER QUESTIONS
[00:52:34] BECAUSE I THINK SOMETIMES WHEN YOU COME AT PROBLEMS AS A
[00:52:38] LAWYER, YOU ACCEPT THE STATUS QUO AND THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ASK
[00:52:42] THEIR WHY NOT? AND YOU START TO THINK, YOU KNOW
[00:52:47] WHY NOT? AND SO REIMAGINING WHAT OUR
[00:52:50] COUNTRY COULD BE IS A WONDERFUL
[00:52:54] THING. AND WHEN YOU HAVE PEOPLE WITH FRESH PERSPECTIVE, IT GIVES YOU
[00:52:57] A FRESH PERSPECTIVE. IS THERE SOMETHING THAT YOU'VE
[00:53:00] LEARNED BY DOING THAT PODCAST OR
[00:53:02] SOMETHING YOU LEARN FROM YOUR STUDENTS THAT CHANGED YOUR
[00:53:06] PERSPECTIVE? OH, ABSOLUTELY. I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS YOU
[00:53:10] LEARN I LEARNED FROM MY STUDENTS
[00:53:12] IS THAT YOU NEVER KNOW ALL OF
[00:53:14] THE HARDSHIPS PEOPLE ARE DEALING WITH.
[00:53:18] EVERYBODY IS CARRYING SOMETHING AROUND WITH THEM.
[00:53:21] AND YOU PROBABLY WOULD NOT KNOW
[00:53:23] THAT FROM THE WAY YOU INTERACT WITH THEM EVERY DAY.
[00:53:27] WHEN YOU ARE PARTNERING ON A
[00:53:29] PODCAST OR WORKING WITH
[00:53:31] STUDENTS, YOU LEARN ABOUT SOME REALLY HEAVY STUFF.
[00:53:34] YOU KNOW, DEATH OF A PARENT,
[00:53:37] SERIOUS ILLNESS, ADDICTIONS,
[00:53:42] SUBSTANCE ABUSE, FRIENDS IN
[00:53:45] DEATH OF FRIENDS BY SUICIDE. AND YET THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO SHOW
[00:53:48] UP IN CLASS AND BE READY TO GO AND PREPARED TO BE CALLED ON AND
[00:53:52] TALK ABOUT A CASE. IT MAKES YOU REALIZE THAT
[00:53:56] EVERYBODY YOU ENCOUNTER ON A DAILY BASIS MAY BE CARRYING
[00:53:58] SOMETHING HEAVY AND SO DEALING
[00:54:00] WITH PEOPLE WITH KINDNESS AND RESPECT, I THINK IS REALLY
[00:54:03] IMPORTANT BECAUSE YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT'S
[00:54:08] DRIVING THEM TO PURSUE A CAREER IN LAW. IS IT I ASSUME IT'S MUCH THE
[00:54:12] SAME AS YOUR EXPERIENCE WAS. IT IS.
[00:54:15] IN FACT, IF ANYTHING, I WILL SAY THE LAW STUDENT OF THE 2020S IS
[00:54:18] MUCH MORE IDEALISTIC THAN THE LAW STUDENT OF THE 1980S.
[00:54:22] I THINK THE 1980S WAS THE ERA OF WALL STREET, AND GREED IS GOOD
[00:54:27] AND GORDON GEKKO AND ALL THAT. CERTAINLY THERE WAS SOME
[00:54:29] IDEALISM IN OUR CLASS, BUT ALSO
[00:54:31] PEOPLE WERE INTERESTED IN THE BIG LAW FIRM JOB.
[00:54:34] AND, YOU KNOW, THE BIG PAYDAY ON WALL STREET. AND I SEE SO MANY OF OUR
[00:54:38] STUDENTS TODAY MOTIVATED BY
[00:54:40] THINGS THEY SAW EITHER THE METOO
[00:54:44] MOVEMENT, THE GEORGE FLOYD
[00:54:46] POLICE BEATING, AND THEY WANT TO
[00:54:48] GO OUT AND BE PART OF A SOLUTION. THEY WANT TO USE THE LAW AS A
[00:54:53] TOOL TO MAKE LIFE MORE JUST FOR OTHERS.
[00:54:56] AND IT'S REALLY INSPIRING TO BE
[00:54:58] ABLE TO HELP DEVELOP UP IN THEM
[00:55:00] A DEEP UNDERSTANDING OF THE RULE OF LAW SO THEY CAN GO OUT AND
[00:55:03] SEEK JUSTICE.
[00:55:07] YEAH.
[00:55:11] HOW'D YOU GET ROBERT DE NIRO TO
[00:55:12] WRITE A BLURB FOR YOUR BOOK?
[00:55:15] THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION.
[00:55:18] SO, YEAH, ROBERTSON NIRO WROTE A
[00:55:20] BLURB FOR MY BOOK, HOW GREAT IS THAT?
[00:55:24] SUPER EXCITED.
[00:55:26] MY PUBLISHER, WHICH IS WONDERFUL.
[00:55:29] SEVEN STORIES PRESS OUT OF NEW YORK. THESE ARE THE GREATEST PEOPLE
[00:55:32] I'VE DEALT WITH. THEY, THEY, THEY PUBLISHED MY
[00:55:35] FIRST BOOK AND ALSO I DIDN'T
[00:55:37] THINK TWICE ABOUT WHERE I WOULD PUBLISH MY SECOND BOOK BECAUSE
[00:55:41] THEY'RE SO GREAT. AND I WORKED WITH A WONDERFUL EDITOR THERE NAMED GREG
[00:55:44] RUGGIERO, AND HE SAID TO ME,
[00:55:48] WHO'S LIKE YOUR DREAM PERSON TO BE A BLURB OR FOR YOUR BOOK?
[00:55:53] I DON'T KNOW. HE SAID, I THINK WE SHOULD DO DIFFERENT PEOPLE WHO BOOK FROM
[00:55:56] THOSE WHO BLURBED YOUR FIRST BOOK. MANY OF THEM WERE FELLOW
[00:55:59] PROSECUTORS, PEOPLE WHO WORKED IN THE LAW.
[00:56:02] AND HE SAID, YOU KNOW, IT'S ABOUT THE MOB WHO WOULD BE LIKE YOUR TOP CHOICE?
[00:56:06] LIKE, I DON'T KNOW. ROBERT DE NIRO. RIGHT. I MEAN, HE WAS IN THE GODFATHER,
[00:56:10] TOO.
[00:56:11] HE WAS IN GOODFELLAS, RIGHT?
[00:56:14] HE IS, YOU KNOW, THE EPITOME
[00:56:16] ISES THE IDEA OF THE MOB.
[00:56:18] AND I ALSO HAVE COME TO ADMIRE HIM BECAUSE HE'S BEEN VERY
[00:56:23] OUTSPOKEN IN, YOU KNOW, RISKING HIS LIVELIHOOD AS AN ACTOR.
[00:56:27] IT'S RISKY TO GO OUT THERE AND SPEAK OUT. AND HE DOES.
[00:56:29] HE SPEAKS OUT AT RALLIES, AT NO KINGS RALLIES AND OTHER THINGS
[00:56:33] ABOUT ABUSES BY THIS PRESIDENT.
[00:56:36] AND SO MY EDITOR SAID, LET ME SEE IF I CAN GET A HOLD OF HIS AGENT.
[00:56:40] AND HE DID. AND IT TURNED OUT THAT ROBERT
[00:56:44] DENIRO SO ADMIRED MY WORK.
[00:56:48] WOW. AND HE SAID, YES.
[00:56:50] AND SO WE SENT HIM A MANUSCRIPT.
[00:56:53] AND A FEW MONTHS LATER HE WROTE THIS GREAT BLURB AND IT'S ON THE
[00:56:56] COVER OF THE BOOK. IT'S FANTASTIC. YEAH.
[00:57:00] YOU DON'T KNOW IF YOU DON'T ASK, RIGHT? THERE YOU GO. I GUESS THAT'S TRUE.
[00:57:05] WHAT ARE YOU HOPING PEOPLE REALLY TAKE AWAY FROM THIS BOOK? WHAT'S A WHAT'S SOMETHING THAT I
[00:57:09] HAVEN'T ASKED OR THE AUDIENCE HASN'T ASKED TONIGHT? WHAT DO YOU REALLY HOPE SOMEONE
[00:57:12] WHO PICKS UP THIS BOOK MAYBE OFFHANDEDLY?
[00:57:14] WHAT DO YOU HOPE THEY TAKE AWAY FROM IT?
[00:57:16] I HOPE THEY THEY TAKE AWAY A
[00:57:19] RESTORED OPTIMISM ISM AND HOPE
[00:57:24] THAT WE, THE PEOPLE, HAVE THE POWER IN THIS COUNTRY.
[00:57:26] I THINK WE HAVE CEDED OUR POWER
[00:57:28] TO POLITICIANS IN WASHINGTON.
[00:57:31] WERE FOND OF COMPLAINING ABOUT THEM.
[00:57:33] BUT WE HAVE THE POWER TO CHANGE.
[00:57:36] YOU KNOW, IN THE SAME WAY YOU
[00:57:38] SAID YOU KNOW, WOW, HOW DID YOU
[00:57:40] GET THE DE NIRO BLURB?
[00:57:42] YOU GOT TO ASK, BUT YOU GOT TO DO IT.
[00:57:45] WE'VE WE'VE AMENDED OUR CONSTITUTION 27 TIMES.
[00:57:48] AND YET SOMEHOW IN THIS MOMENT, IT SEEMS THAT WE FEEL POWERLESS.
[00:57:52] JEANNE SHAHEEN, YOUR VERY OWN,
[00:57:55] HAS PROPOSED A CONSTITUTIONAL
[00:57:57] AMENDMENT TO OVERTURN CITIZENS UNITED.
[00:58:00] LET'S GO. WE CAN DO THAT.
[00:58:06] NOBODY LIKES THIS. THIS THIS CASE EXCEPT FOR THE
[00:58:09] BILLIONAIRES WHO USE IT TO THEIR ADVANTAGE.
[00:58:11] BUT THERE ARE MORE OF US THAN THERE ARE OF THEM.
[00:58:15] WE CAN DO THIS, YOU KNOW,
[00:58:17] ELECTING PEOPLE WHO HAVE A
[00:58:20] VISION FOR THE FUTURE, MAKING LIFE MORE AFFORDABLE.
[00:58:22] WE CAN DO THIS RIGHT?
[00:58:26] WE THE PEOPLE, HAVE THE POWER TO TAKE BACK OUR GOVERNMENT.
[00:58:29] AND SO WHAT I HOPE IS THAT PEOPLE WILL READ THE FIX AND SEE
[00:58:32] SOME OF THE IDEAS. SOME OF THEM ARE PRETTY BOLD,
[00:58:35] LIKE CREATING A FOURTH BRANCH OF GOVERNMENT AND PUTTING THE
[00:58:39] JUSTICE DEPARTMENT THERE SO IT WON'T BE POLITICIZED. BUT SOME OF THEM ARE FAR MORE
[00:58:43] MODEST. LIKE LET'S USE RANKED CHOICE VOTING LIKE THEY USE UP IN MAINE
[00:58:46] OR THEY USE IN ALASKA. LET'S STOP GERRYMANDERING THE
[00:58:50] WAY WE HAVE IN MY HOME STATE OF MICHIGAN BY CREATING AN
[00:58:54] INDEPENDENT CITIZEN'S REDISTRICTING COMMISSION.
[00:58:56] WE CAN DO THIS. AND SO WHAT I HOPE IS THAT
[00:58:59] PEOPLE WILL REMEMBER THAT IT'S WE THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE THE POWER
[00:59:03] AND WILL BE INSPIRED TO DO SOMETHING, EVEN IF IT'S
[00:59:06] SOMETHING SMALL, BECAUSE COLLECTIVELY IT CAN BE SOMETHING
[00:59:13] BIG. ONE FINAL QUESTION.
[00:59:15] IF YOU HAD TO PRIORITIZE THE FIX
[00:59:19] YOU HAD, YOU GAVE US A LITANY RIGHT THERE.
[00:59:21] BUT IF YOU HAD TO PRIORITIZE,
[00:59:24] WHAT'S THE TOP THREE, TOP THREE OF INSTITUTIONAL THINGS?
[00:59:27] I'LL GIVE YOU ONE FROM EACH OF THE THREE BRANCHES OF GOVERNMENT.
[00:59:31] SO IN THE LEGISLATIVE BRANCH, WE GOT TO RESTORE THE ROAD TO OUR
[00:59:35] CONGRESS, RIGHT? THAT'S ARTICLE ONE FOR A REASON. AND SO SOME OF THESE THINGS WE TALKED ABOUT, LIKE
[00:59:40] GERRYMANDERING, RANKED CHOICE VOTING. BUT I ALSO LIKE THE IDEA OF PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION,
[00:59:44] WHICH GIVES US MORE SEATS IN CONGRESS SO THAT WE CAN ELECT
[00:59:48] MORE PEOPLE FROM EACH DISTRICT, WHICH WOULD MEAN OUR DISTRICTS
[00:59:50] ARE NOT SO SOLIDLY RED AND BLUE
[00:59:52] ROOM FOR SOME PEOPLE IN THE MIDDLE, THAT'S THE LEGISLATIVE
[00:59:56] BRANCH IN THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH.
[00:59:59] I THINK WE NEED TO CODIFY SOME OF THESE NORMS I TALKED ABOUT EARLIER AT THE JUSTICE
[01:00:03] DEPARTMENT SO THAT IT CAN'T BE WEAPONIZED BY A PRESIDENT WHO
[01:00:07] WANTS TO USE IT AS A TOOL OF RETRIBUTION.
[01:00:09] LET'S CODIFY THOSE INTO THE LAW. AND THIRD, IN THE JUDICIAL
[01:00:13] BRANCH, I WOULD TAKE THE U.S. MARSHALS SERVICE, WHICH IS NOW
[01:00:16] PART OF THE DEPARTMENT OF
[01:00:18] JUSTICE AND THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH
[01:00:20] CREATED BY THE JUDICIARY ACT OF 1789 BY CONGRESS.
[01:00:24] MOVE IT OVER TO THE JUDICIARY, WHICH WE COULD DO THROUGH AN ACT
[01:00:28] OF CONGRESS SO THAT WE CAN PUT SOME TEETH INTO THOSE COURT
[01:00:32] ORDERS. WHEN AN EXECUTIVE BRANCH SAYS WE'RE NOT GOING TO OBEY A COURT
[01:00:36] ORDER, A JUDGE COULD HOLD THEM
[01:00:38] IN CONTEMPT AND ORDER THEM JAIL
[01:00:41] HELD FOR CIVIL CONTEMPT UNTIL
[01:00:43] THEY DO.
[01:00:50] I'M OUT OF QUESTIONS.
[01:00:54] BARBARA MCQUADE, THANK YOU SO MUCH. IT'S BEEN A PLEASURE.
[01:01:03] NOW, BEFORE WE GO, THIS DOESN'T JUST HAPPEN.
[01:01:06] I HAVE A LOT OF PEOPLE TO THANK. THE MUSICAL ACTING PRESIDENT AND
[01:01:10] CEO JOE GLEASON. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING US. NEW HAMPSHIRE PUBLIC RADIO'S
[01:01:14] PRESIDENT AND CEO, MY BOSS, JIM SCHACHTER, NEW HAMPSHIRE PUBLIC
[01:01:17] RADIO PRODUCER SARAH PLOURDE, WHO EXPERTLY TAKES CARE OF ALL
[01:01:21] THAT. I ASKED YOU ABOUT ALL YOUR QUESTIONS TONIGHT AND ALSO HELP
[01:01:25] ME MANAGE MINE. I ALSO WANT TO THANK NEW
[01:01:29] HAMPSHIRE PUBLIC RADIO'S PROGRAM DIRECTOR, EMILY QUIRK, AND I WANT TO THANK THE MUSICAL
[01:01:33] LITERARY PRODUCER BRITTANY WASSON, THE MUSICAL PRODUCTION
[01:01:35] MANAGER AIDAN KELLERMAN, THE MUSICAL LIVE SOUND RECORDING
[01:01:38] ENGINEER AND MARTIN, WHO ALWAYS HAS A FANTASTIC JOB. THE MUSICAL LIGHTING.
[01:01:42] A CINEMA COORDINATOR DREW FABRIZIO AND MUSICAL DIRECTOR AND THE BAND.
[01:01:46] YOU KNOW HIM WELL, BOB LORD AND DREADNOUGHT.
[01:01:49] THANK YOU SO MUCH. THANK YOU.
[01:01:54] ALL. AND ONCE AGAIN, THANK YOU SO
[01:01:56] MUCH TO BARBARA MCQUADE.