CSPAN3 — Lois Romano An Inconvenient Widow
20260810 230400 UTC
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[00:00:01] . >> IT GIVES THE PEOPLE AN OPPORTUNITY TO SPEAK FOR
[00:00:04] THEMSELVES ON THE ISSUES THEY ACTUALLY CARE ABOUT. >> IT IS A GREAT FORUM AND YOU
[00:00:08] GET TO TALK TO REAL AMERICANS.
[00:00:13] >> THIS IS MY FIRST TIME EVER ON
[00:00:14] C-SPAN.
[00:00:18] OUR COUNTRY WOULD BE A BETTER PLACE.
[00:00:21] IF EVERY AMERICAN WOULD WATCH ONE HOUR A WEEK.
[00:00:22] THEY CAN PICK ONE, TWO OR THREE.
[00:00:25] >> JOIN US FOR A LIVE THREE HOUR CONVERSATION WITH A VARIETY OF
[00:00:27] CONGRESSIONAL MEMBERS AND WASHINGTON INFLUENCERS.
[00:00:31] YOU CAN WATCH WASHINGTON JOURNAL
[00:00:35] LIVE EVERY MORNING AT 7:00 A.M. EASTERN ON C-SPAN, C-SPAN NOW OR
[00:00:38] ONLINE ON C-SPAN.ORG.
[00:00:49] >> DISCOVER AMERICA'S STORY WITH C-SPAN'S NEW AMERICAN HISTORY
[00:00:53] TIMELINE POSTER. THIS LARGE FOUR AND A HALF FOOT
[00:00:56] WIDE POSTER EXPLORES THE LIVES AND PUBLIC SERVICE CAREERS OF
[00:00:59] EVERY U.S. PRESIDENT ALONG WITH KEY HISTORICAL EVENTS, LANDMARK
[00:01:03] SUPREME COURT CASES, CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS AND
[00:01:06] MAJOR TECHNOLOGY MILESTONES
[00:01:08] THROUGHOUT THE NATION'S HISTORY. THE POSTER ALSO FEATURES A
[00:01:11] SPECIAL AMERICA 250 SECTION,
[00:01:15] HIGHLIGHTING THE COUNTRY'S FOUNDING AND THE 250TH ANNIVERSARY OF THE UNITED STATES.
[00:01:18] BRING AMERICAN HISTORY HOME WITH
[00:01:21] THE C-SPAN AMERICAN HISTORY TIMELINE POSTER.
[00:01:25] SCAN THE CODE OR VISIT
[00:01:26] C-SPANSHOP.ORG.
[00:01:30] >> EN TO THE PANEL. LOIS ROMANO IS A RENOWNED
[00:01:32] JOURNALIST AND AUTHOR PROVIDING
[00:01:35] COVERAGE OF NATIONAL POLITICS AND AMERICAN POLITICAL CULTURE.
[00:01:39] AMONG THE MAJOR OUTLETS FOR WHICH SHE HAS WORKED, THAT INCLUDES WASHINGTON POST AND
[00:01:43] POLITICO POST CLOSE TO HOME HERE IN GAITHERSBURG.
[00:01:46] IT WAS HER INTEREST IN THE LIVES OF INFLUENTIAL WOMEN THAT LED
[00:01:49] HER TO WRITING "AND INCONVENIENT
[00:01:53] WIDOW". THIS CHRONICLES THE LIFE OF THE MISUNDERSTOOD MARY TODD LINCOLN
[00:01:56] FROM CHILDHOOD THROUGH HER TIME AS FIRST LADY AND AFTERWARDS.
[00:01:59] ALL THE WHILE, HIGHLIGHTING THEMES THAT WILL RESONATE EVEN
[00:02:02] TODAY.
[00:02:04] TALKING MENTAL HEALTH AND POLITICAL DIVISION AND VIOLENCE.
[00:02:09] WE ARE TALKING RACIAL TENSION AND GENDER ROLES. WITH THAT, I WOULD LIKE TO TURN
[00:02:13] IT OVER TO OUR MODERATOR,
[00:02:14] COLLEEN SHOGREN AN OFFER HERSELF
[00:02:19] AND THE FIRST WANT TO BE CONFIRMED AS THE NATION'S ARCHIVIST.
[00:02:23] SO WITH THAT, COLLEEN, TAKE IT AWAY.
[00:02:27] >> THANK YOU SO MUCH AND WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY HERE AT THE
[00:02:30] GAITHERSBURG BOOK FESTIVAL. I WILL SAY SOMETHING RIGHT UP
[00:02:33] FRONT WHICH WILL BECOME EVIDENT THROUGHOUT THE CONVERSATION.
[00:02:36] THIS IS A FANTASTIC BOOK. I WANTED TO REITERATE THAT YOU
[00:02:40] SHOULD GO AND BUY IT IF YOU HAVE
[00:02:41] NOT ALREADY PURCHASED IT AND
[00:02:45] MAKE SURE THAT LOIS IS ABLE TO SIGN IT.
[00:02:47] IT IS TREMENDOUS TO READ BUT I
[00:02:49] THINK IT IS GOING TO BE EXTRAORDINARILY INFLUENTIAL FOR
[00:02:52] THOSE OF US THAT ARE INTERESTED IN HOW WE THINK ABOUT ABRAHAM
[00:02:55] LINCOLN.
[00:02:59] PROBABLY OUR MOST FAMOUS PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.
[00:03:01] SO LET'S GET STARTED, LOIS.
[00:03:04] MARY TODD LINCOLN, YOU COULD
[00:03:05] HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT ALL THE OTHEO
[00:03:11] CHOOSE FROM. SOME IMPORTANT WOMEN TO CHOOSE
[00:03:13] FROM. MARY TODD LINCOLN HAS SUCH A
[00:03:17] TRAGIC STORY. WHY DID YOU CHOOSE TO WRITE A BOOK ON HER?
[00:03:20] >> THANK YOU FOR THAT QUESTION AND THANK YOU ALL FOR COMING.
[00:03:24] AND THANK YOU FOR SHOWING UP.
[00:03:28] OUR PREVIOUS SPEAKER MODERATOR
[00:03:29] DID NOT SHOW UP SO WE ARE VERY
[00:03:33] GRATEFUL. BEFORE I ANSWER THE QUESTION,
[00:03:36] COLLEEN HAS TAKEN ON THIS INCREDIBLY INTERESTING PROJECT
[00:03:39] FOR THE 250TH. .IF YOU HAVE NOT SEEN IT, IT IS
[00:03:42] CALLED INPURSUIT.ORG.
[00:03:45] LOOK IT UP ON THE WEBSITE. SHE GOT ALL THESE INCREDIBLY
[00:03:48] INTERESTING PEOPLE TO WRITE ESSAYS ON PRESIDENTS AND FIRST
[00:03:51] LADIES AND SHE GOT EVERY LIVING
[00:03:53] PRESIDENT AND FIRST LADY TO DO ONE. AND I'M HONORED TO BE INCLUDED
[00:03:57] IN THAT. IN PURSUIT.
[00:04:00] PLEASE GO AHEAD AND DO IT.
[00:04:03] LET ME ANSWER THE QUESTION. WHY MARY TODD LINCOLN?
[00:04:07] I HAVE COVERED FIRST LADIES.
[00:04:10] STARTING BACK A LITTLE BIT WITH THE NANCY REAGAN.
[00:04:14] BUT MOSTLY BARBARA BUSH. A LOT WITH HILLARY CLINTON AND MOVING FORWARD.
[00:04:18] AND I DID A LOT OF RESEARCH AT THAT TIME.
[00:04:22] AND THERE WAS A LOT OF INFORMATION OUT THERE ON MARY TODD LINCOLN.
[00:04:26] AND IT WAS VERY NEGATIVE. WHAT I FOUND OUT, WAS THAT A LOT OF IT WAS WRONG.
[00:04:29] THAT IT WAS -- HER STORY -- SHE
[00:04:36] HAD MISSED STEPS. BUT HER STORY, SHE GOT CAUGHT IN THE CROSSHAIRS OF THE WAR AND
[00:04:40] HER STORY WAS WRITTEN BY MEN WHO
[00:04:42] JUST DIDN'T LIKE HER AND WHO ARE
[00:04:45] CHALLENGED BY HER AND WHO WERE JEALOUS OF HER.
[00:04:47] BECAUSE SHE WAS ACTUALLY QUITE
[00:04:49] CLOSE TO HER HUSBAND EVEN THOUGH
[00:04:51] A LOT OF BIOGRAPHERS, LATER,
[00:04:54] THOUGHT SHE WASN'T.
[00:04:57] THEY HAD A TRUE PARTNERSHIP.
[00:04:58] AND HERE WE HAVE ONE OF THE MOST
[00:05:02] CONSEQUENTIAL PRESIDENTS IN
[00:05:03] HISTORY AND THERE WAS A WOMAN
[00:05:07] WHO STOOD BESIDE HIM. AND WE DIDN'T HAVE HER STORY.
[00:05:10] AND I WANTED TO RESTORE HER STORY AND GIVE HER SOME
[00:05:11] HUMANITY.
[00:05:16] >> SO WE WON'T BE ABLE TO COVER ALL THE DETAIL IN THE BOOK BUT
[00:05:18] WE WILL GIVE PEOPLE A VERY GOOD OVERVIEW.
[00:05:21] LET'S START OUT AT THE BEGINNING.
[00:05:25] MARY LINCOLN DOES NOT HAVE THE MOST HAPPIEST OF CHILDHOODS.
[00:05:28] BUT SHE HAS AN UNUSUAL CHILDHOOD. CHILDHOOD.
[00:05:31] SHE HAS A FATHER THAT READS WALL
[00:05:35] STONE CRAFT. SHE HANGS OUT WITH HENRY CLAY.
[00:05:38] SO TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT
[00:05:40] HOW MARY TODD -- HOW SHE WAS
[00:05:44] RAISED AND WHAT HER LIFE WAS LIKE BEFORE SHE MEETS ABRAHAM
[00:05:48] LINCOLN. >> SHE IS RAISED IN LEXINGTON, KENTUCKY WHICH WAS ONE OF THE
[00:05:52] MOST -- IT IS CALLED THE ATHENS OF THE WEST. IT IS AN INCREDIBLY
[00:05:56] SOPHISTICATED TOWN. THEIR PAVED ROADS.
[00:06:00] THERE ARE 17 SHOPS WHERE SHE IS BORN.
[00:06:04] THERE ARE FIVE NEWSPAPERS. THERE ARE PRIVATE SCHOOLS.
[00:06:08] AS HELENE SAID, HER FATHER AS A PLAYER. HE IS A BANKER.
[00:06:11] HE IS THE CLERK OF THE LEGISLATURE. AND HE IS BEST FRIENDS WITH
[00:06:14] HENRY CLAY, WHO AT THAT TIME,
[00:06:19] HAD BEEN SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE AND SECRETARY OF STATE AND HAD
[00:06:22] RUN FOR PRESIDENT MANY TIMES.
[00:06:23] AND HER FATHER'S DINNER TABLE,
[00:06:28] ARE FAIRLY POWERFUL PEOPLE. SHE BECOMES CONSUMED WITH POLITICS AS A TEENAGER.
[00:06:32] BUT LET ME JUST BACK UP FOR ONE SECOND. SHE ALSO HAS A LOT OF HEART ACHE.
[00:06:36] HER MOTHER DIES WHEN SHE IS SIX YEARS OLD. HER FATHER HAS SIX KIDS.
[00:06:39] HE IS DESPERATE TO FIND A MOTHER FOR THESE CHILDREN.
[00:06:42] SO HE MARRIES SOMEBODY THAT HE
[00:06:45] MEETS IMMEDIATELY WHO THEN PROCEEDS TO POP OUT NINE MORE
[00:06:49] CHILDREN. SO MARY IS LITERALLY IN THE
[00:06:52] MIDDLE OF 14 CHILDREN AND A
[00:06:55] LITTLE BIT LOST. SO SHE FINDS HER BEARING. SHE IS BRILLIANT.
[00:06:59] SHE GETS OUT OF THE HOUSE BY
[00:07:01] GOING TO A PRIVATE SCHOOL LIKE A MILE AWAY. BUT SHE LOVES THE POLITICS OF
[00:07:05] THE SITUATION.
[00:07:07] AND YES, THERE WAS FAMILY AROUND
[00:07:10] AND COUSINS. SHE AT ONE TIME DESCRIBED HER CHILDHOOD AS DESOLATE.
[00:07:14] AND IT WAS VERY LONELY FOR HER.
[00:07:18] >> HOW DOES SHE MEET ABRAHAM LINCOLN?
[00:07:19] TELL US THAT STORY?
[00:07:23] AND ISN'T IT TRUE THAT SHE WAS
[00:07:25] ALSO DATING STEPHEN DOUGLAS?
[00:07:32] >> SHE WAS DATING A LOT OF PEOPLE. SHE NEEDS TO GET OUT OF THE HOUSE.
[00:07:35] THEIR INFANTS IN THE HOUSE. SHE IS 20 YEARS OLD.
[00:07:38] IT IS A BEAUTIFUL HOME ON MAIN STREET IN LEXINGTON, KENTUCKY.
[00:07:42] SHE IS DONE. THE OLDEST SISTER OF THE FIRST
[00:07:46] MARRIAGE MARRIES WELL. THE SON OF THE GOVERNOR AND MOVES TO ILLINOIS.
[00:07:49] AND SHE THEN PROCEEDS, THE
[00:07:50] SISTER, TO AND BY THE OTHER
[00:07:54] SISTERS TO FIND HUSBANDS.
[00:07:57] SO MARY, I THINK MIGHT BE SECOND OR THIRD. SHE MARRIES OFF THE FIRST TWO
[00:08:01] AND ANOTHER HISTORIAN CALLED
[00:08:06] ELIZABETH'S HOUSE, A HALFWAY HOUSE FOR UNMARRIED SISTERS.
[00:08:09] SO MARY TAKES THE TRAIN ROAD.
[00:08:11] AND AS I SAID, SHE IS 20 YEARS OLD.
[00:08:14] SHE GOES TO SPRINGFIELD.
[00:08:17] AND HER SISTER IS WELL-OFF AT THAT POINT.
[00:08:19] AND I BELIEVE HER HUSBAND AT THAT MOMENT, IN ADDITION TO
[00:08:22] BEING THE SON OF THE MOST POWERFUL POLITICIAN IN ILLINOIS,
[00:08:26] IS ALSO A STATE LEGISLATOR.
[00:08:29] SO THEY WOULD HAVE THESE STORIES AT THEIR HOUSE EVERY FRIDAY NIGHT.
[00:08:32] OR WHAT IS CALLED THE SALON.
[00:08:36] AND MARY ARRIVES AND SHE IS THE BELL OF THE BALL. SHE IS NOT A PARTICULARLY
[00:08:39] BEAUTIFUL WOMAN. BUT SHE WAS ATTRACTIVE ENOUGH
[00:08:41] AND SHE WAS SMART. AND SHE WAS OUTSPOKEN AND SHE
[00:08:45] SPOKE FRENCH.
[00:08:47] AND SHE WOULD GO INTO THIS
[00:08:50] 40-FOOT LIVING ROOM AND BE SURROUNDED BY MEN.
[00:08:54] CLAMORING FOR HER ATTENTION. AMONG THEM WAS ABRAHAM LINCOLN
[00:08:57] AND STEPHEN DOUGLAS.
[00:09:01] >> SO THEY GET MARRIED -- >> WAIT A MINUTE.
[00:09:05] IT WAS A ROUGH COURTSHIP. >> IT WAS.
[00:09:08] IT WAS ON AGAIN AND OFF AGAIN AND BACK ON AGAIN.
[00:09:11] >> LET ME TAKE A MINUTE. THE COURTSHIP WAS PRETTY WILD. THEY GET ENGAGED.
[00:09:15] AND HE DECIDES THAT SHE IS GOING THROUGH A LOT. HE DECIDES HE DOESN'T WANT TO
[00:09:19] MARRY HER. AND NOBODY KNOWS REALLY WHAT HE DECIDED THAT.
[00:09:23] BECAUSE HIS PREVIOUS GIRLFRIEND, HE WASN'T CLEAR HE WANTED TO MARRY HER BUT HE HAD MADE A
[00:09:26] PROMISE TO HER.
[00:09:31] THERE IS A FABULOUS LETTER ONE FINDS WHAT HE HASN'T SEEN THE
[00:09:33] PREVIOUS GIRLFRIEND IN SIX MONTHS AND HE WILL WRITE TO A
[00:09:36] WOMAN FRIEND AND SAY, IT WAS AWFUL.
[00:09:38] I SAW HER AND SHE GAINED ALL THIS WEAK. SHE LOST ALL OF HER TEETH.
[00:09:42] I FELT LIKE I WAS EMBRACING FALSTAFF.
[00:09:45] BUT HE SAID, I MADE MY PROMISE
[00:09:47] AND I'M GOING TO MARRY HER. BELIEVE IT OR NOT, THAT WOMAN
[00:09:51] DUMPED HIM.
[00:09:54] SO NOW HE MEETS MARY.
[00:09:57] AND FOR SOME REASON -- AND NO ONE IS QUITE SURE WHY HE BROKE IT OFF.
[00:10:00] THEY DON'T THINK IT WAS ALL ABOUT MARY. THEY THINK HE WAS GOING THROUGH
[00:10:03] A LOT OF THINGS.
[00:10:06] AND MAYBE WAS INTIMIDATED BY THE
[00:10:09] TODD FAMILY AND BY HIS SISTER-IN-LAW'S FAMILY.
[00:10:12] AND HE KNEW THEY DIDN'T APPROVE OF HIM. HE BREAKS IT OFF.
[00:10:16] 18 MONTHS GO BY AND NEITHER OF THEM FIND ANYONE.
[00:10:19] AND FINALLY, AFTER 18 MONTHS, A
[00:10:22] COUPLE OF FRIENDS SAID, WHY WHEN WETRY TO HOOK THEM UP AGAI.
[00:10:26] THEY REINTRODUCE THEM.
[00:10:26] THEY START QUIETLY -- I WANT TO
[00:10:32] SAY SNEAKILY, SEEING EACH OTHER. MARY DIDN'T WANT ANYBODY TO KNOW. SHE PARTICULARLY DID NOT WANT
[00:10:36] HER FAMILY TO KNOW. BY NOW, THEY JUST DON'T LIKE HIM.
[00:10:39] SO THEY START DATING AGAIN.
[00:10:42] DATING IS TOO BIG OF A WORD. THEY START SNEAKING OFF AND
[00:10:45] MEETING IN THE HOUSE OF A NEWSPAPER PUBLISHER. THIS GOES ON FOR ABOUT FOUR
[00:10:49] MONTHS. AND THEN ONE DAY, LINCOLN SHOWS
[00:10:52] UP AT THE MINISTER'S HOUSE AND SAID, I NEED TO GET HITCHED
[00:10:55] TONIGHT.
[00:10:58] ROBERT WAS BORN NINE MONTHS LATER.
[00:11:00] SO YOU FIGURE IT OUT.
[00:11:06] >> AFTER THEY ARE MARRIED, MARY LINCOLN MEETS SOMEONE WHO WILL
[00:11:09] BE VERY PIVOTAL IN HER LIFE AND
[00:11:11] IN PARTICULARLY, IN YOUR STORY
[00:11:15] OF HER LIFE.
[00:11:15] HIS NAME IS WILLIAM HERNDON.
[00:11:19] TELL EVERYBODY WHO TURNED IN --
[00:11:24] WILLIAM HERNDON WAS AND WHAT IMPACT HE WILL HAVE ON MARY
[00:11:26] LINCOLN.
[00:11:30] >> WILLIAM HERNDON WAS LINCOLN'S LAW PARTNER BUT HE WAS AN
[00:11:33] UNUSUAL LAW PARTNER FOR LINCOLN. LINCOLN BY THAT TIME HAD HAD TWO
[00:11:35] OTHER LAW PARTNERS THAT WERE EXTREMELY PROMINENT.
[00:11:39] AND HE WAS ALSO, BY THE TIME THEY WERE MARRIED, HE WAS IN HIS
[00:11:43] 30s AND HE WAS A VERY PROMINENT LAWYER IN THE STATE.
[00:11:46] A WELL-KNOWN ORDER.
[00:11:50] HE WANTED TO GO OUT ON HIS OWN.
[00:11:52] AND HE CHOSE HIS OFFICE CLERK TO BE HIS PARTNER.
[00:11:55] WILLIAM HERNDON -- HAD NOT EVEN
[00:11:58] PASS THE BAR EXAM YET. HE WANTED SOMEONE NOT TO
[00:12:02] OUTSHINE HIM AND MAYBE WOULD KEEP THE BOOKS IN THE OFFICE SO THAT LINCOLN COULD DO EVERYTHING
[00:12:06] HE WANTED TO DO. AND THE ILLINOIS BAR WAS STUNNED
[00:12:10] BY THIS. AND NO ONE WAS MORE STONED THAN
[00:12:13] MARY TODD LINCOLN. BECAUSE SHE COULDN'T UNDERSTAND
[00:12:15] WHY HE WOULD TURN TO THIS KID.
[00:12:20] AND ALSO, WHILE WILLIAM HERNDON
[00:12:22] WAS VERY SMART, HE HAD A PRETTY ROUGH REPUTATION.
[00:12:25] HE WAS A DRUNK.
[00:12:27] HE WAS IN DISCRETE.
[00:12:32] AND LINCOLN AT ONE TIME HAD TO BAIL HIM OUT OF JAIL.
[00:12:35] AND LINCOLN, BEING A FAIR
[00:12:38] PERSON, THEY SPLIT THE FEES, WHICH WAS TALKING TO EVERYBODY.
[00:12:42] ALL OF THIS COMBINED, MARY WAS JUST HORRIFIED.
[00:12:46] AND THE WRITTEN MATERIAL ON
[00:12:49] THIS, INTERVIEWS AND LETTERS,
[00:12:52] SAID SHE JUST COULDN'T HIDE IT. SHE HELD HIM IN DISDAIN.
[00:12:56] AND SHE WOULD NOT HAVE HIM TO
[00:12:57] HER HOME FOR DINNER.
[00:13:01] AND SO THEREFORE, HE ALSO HATED HER.
[00:13:05] >> AND HOW WILL THAT MATTER LATER ON? >> IT REALLY MATTERS QUITE A BIT
[00:13:09] BECAUSE THERE WERE TWO PEOPLE THAT I THINK TO FIND MARY'S
[00:13:13] LEGACY. ONE IS WILLIAM HERNDON AND THE
[00:13:15] OTHER IS HER SON, WHICH WE WILL GET TO.
[00:13:18] BUT HE JUST CAN'T STAND HER. HE IS INDISCRETE ABOUT HER AND
[00:13:22] HE TELLS STORIES ABOUT HER. HE TELLS ONE STORY ABOUT HOW
[00:13:25] LINCOLN IS WHEELING THE TWO BABIES WHILE SHE IS IN CHURCH
[00:13:29] ONE DAY.
[00:13:32] LINCOLN WENT SPORADICALLY TO CHURCH.
[00:13:34] BUT THEY HAD A PEW WHEN SHE WENT.
[00:13:37] AND HE IS READING A BOOK AND WALKING THE IN A CARRIAGE.
[00:13:41] ONE OF THE KIDS FELL OUT OF THE CARRIAGE AND LINCOLN DIDN'T NOTICE.
[00:13:45] >> HE WAS NOT THE BEST HUSBAND, RIGHT? >> YES.
[00:13:49] AND I WANT TO GET TO THAT. PEOPLE SAY SHE WASN'T A GOOD WIFE. HE WAS NOT A GOOD HUSBAND.
[00:13:52] ONE OF THE KIDS FALLS OUT OF THE CARRIAGE. MARY COMES RUNNING OUT OF CHURCH
[00:13:56] AND SHE IS SCREAMING LIKE A BANSHEE AND YELLING AT HIM AND
[00:14:00] FOR SOME REASON, SHE GETS THE BLAME.
[00:14:04] I MEAN, THE KIDS FALLS OUT OF THE CARRIAGE AND LINCOLN NEVER
[00:14:08] NOTICES IT UNTIL HE IS A HALF
[00:14:08] BLOCK AWAY.
[00:14:12] AND ALL OF HIS FRIENDS AND
[00:14:15] WILLIAM HERNDON WAS LIKE, ZERO
[00:14:17] MY GOD DOES THEY CALL IT WOMAN WHIPPED AT THE TIME.
[00:14:20] HE STOOD THERE AND TOOK IT. AND WILLIAM HERNDON NEVER FORGOT THAT HE NEVER GOT INVITED TO
[00:14:24] DINNER. AND LATER YOU CAN SEE HIM SEETHING IN HIS LETTERS LIKE
[00:14:28] EVEN AFTER SHE IS DEAD.
[00:14:30] HE IS TALKING ABOUT HOW SHE HAD
[00:14:33] THESE FANCY PARTIES AND ONLY INVITED ARISTOCRATS AND AFTER
[00:14:35] THE PARTY, SHE WOULD BROWBEAT
[00:14:39] LINCOLN BECAUSE HE DIDN'T BEHAVE WELL. WELL, I DON'T KNOW HOW HE WOULD KNOW THAT.
[00:14:42] HE NEVER GOT INVITED.
[00:14:46] SO HE WAS A REAL THORN IN HER SIDE.
[00:14:48] AND HE DOES AFTER LINCOLN
[00:14:51] DIED -- DO YOU WANT TO KEEP TALKING ABOUT THIS? ALL RIGHT.
[00:14:54] AFTER LINCOLN DIES, HE DECIDES
[00:14:56] HE WILL BE LINCOLN'S BOSWELL. AND HE STARTS COLLECTING ALL
[00:15:00] THIS INFORMATION ABOUT LINCOLN UP UNTIL THE TIME HE GOES TO THE
[00:15:03] WHITE HOUSE. AT THE WHITE HOUSE, EVEN LINCOLN
[00:15:08] DROPS HERNDON. AND HE BECOMES THIS EXPERT EVERYBODY IS QUOTING.
[00:15:11] AND ALL THE STUFF HE IS RESEARCHING IS ALL NEGATIVE
[00:15:16] ABOUT MARY. SO HE DECIDES ABOUT SIX MONTHS AFTER LINCOLN DIES, THAT HE IS
[00:15:19] GOING TO DO A SERIES OF LECTURES
[00:15:23] BECAUSE HE DOESN'T HAVE THE DISCIPLINE TO WRITE A BOOK.
[00:15:26] HIS FIRST LECTURE, HE JUST TOUCHES ON IT.
[00:15:27] AND HE SAYS IT IS ABOUT LINCOLN'S PERSONALITY.
[00:15:30] AND HE SAID HE WAS UNHAPPY FOR 23 YEARS. AND YOU REALLY HAD TO BE
[00:15:33] LISTENING AND REALLY DO THE MATH
[00:15:36] TO KNOW THAT IS HOW LONG HIS MARRIAGE WAS.
[00:15:40] AND THEN HIS MOST DAMAGING LECTURE CAME A FEW MONTHS LATER
[00:15:44] WHERE HE GIVES US LECTURE THAT SAID THAT LINCOLN NEVER ALLOWED
[00:15:48] TO MARRY AND HE REALLY LOVED THIS OTHER WOMAN WHO HAD DIED 30
[00:15:50] YEARS PRIOR AND THAT IN FACT, HE
[00:15:55] NEVER SIGNED HIS LETTERS TO MARY
[00:15:59] AFFECTIONATELY, LIKE WITH AFFECTION, WHICH OF COURSE HE DID.
[00:16:02] SO THIS GOES ON FOR 25 YEARS. I THINK WE SHOULD TAKE A BREAK
[00:16:04] AND TALK -- AND WE CAN COME BACK
[00:16:08] AND TALK ABOUT HOW HE DID THE DAMAGE. >> SURE. WE WILL MOVE ON.
[00:16:11] OBVIOUSLY LINCOLN GOES ON TO
[00:16:13] HAVE A POLITICAL CAREER IN STATE POLITICS. HE IS IN CONGRESS FOR A TERM.
[00:16:17] HE RUNS FOR THE SENATE.
[00:16:21] AND EVENTUALLY, BECAUSE OF CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES, BECOMES
[00:16:25] THE REPUBLICAN NOMINEE AND FINDS HIMSELF IN THE WHITE HOUSE.
[00:16:29] AND THEIR TWO THINGS THAT
[00:16:29] HAPPENED WHEN MARY LINCOLN IS
[00:16:33] WAITING TO BECOME THE FIRST LADY AND IN HER EARLY TIME AS FIRST LADY.
[00:16:36] TWO THINGS I WANT YOU TO TOUCH UPON.
[00:16:40] BECAUSE IT TARNISHES HER LEGACY.
[00:16:40] ONE IS THE SHOPPING AND THE
[00:16:44] SPENDING AND THE OTHER IS THE FACT THAT SHE IS A SOUTHERNER.
[00:16:47] AND OF COURSE, WE ARE IN THE MIDST OF THE CIVIL WAR AND
[00:16:50] PEOPLE ARE ACCUSING HER OF BEING A CONFEDERATE SYMPATHIZER.
[00:16:54] TALK ABOUT BOTH OF THOSE. THOSE THINGS DOG HER.
[00:16:58] >> THANK YOU FOR THOSE QUESTIONS. I JUST WANT TO TAKE A MOMENT TO SAY THIS.
[00:17:02] MARY THOUGHT IT WAS HER DESTINY TO BE FIRST LADY. SHE SAID EARLY ON IN HER LIFE
[00:17:05] THAT SHE WAS GOING TO MARRY SOMEBODY DESTINED TO BE PRESIDENT.
[00:17:09] AND SHE HAD A LITTLE BIT OF A CRUSH ON HENRY CLAY BUT HE WAS
[00:17:12] TOO OLD. SO SHE DECIDED ON LINCOLN.
[00:17:14] SO THEY ARE ELECTED AND AS
[00:17:17] COLLEEN SAID, MARY IS FROM A BORDER STATE, WHICH IS SORT OF A
[00:17:20] SOUTHERN STATE BUT NOT THROWN IN
[00:17:25] WITH THE CONFEDERACY. SHE ARRIVES IN WASHINGTON AND
[00:17:28] THE SOUTH JUST DESPISES LINCOLN. IN THE NORTH IS VERY SUSPICIOUS
[00:17:32] OF LINCOLN BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT SURE HE IS REALLY ALL IN ON
[00:17:36] ENDING SAVORY.
[00:17:37] AND HE WAS A LITTLE SLOW ON THAT.
[00:17:41] ALL OF THEIR ANIMOSITY, THEY TAKE OUT ON MARY. SHE IS ACCUSED OF BEING A
[00:17:44] TRAITOR AND A SPY AND OF HOLDING
[00:17:46] HIM UP ON SAVORY AND SHE
[00:17:52] ACTUALLY DID NOT HOLD HIM UP. IT WAS LINCOLN HIMSELF WHO DID
[00:17:56] NOT WANT TO ALIENATE ALL THE
[00:17:57] SOUTHERN STATES.
[00:18:02] SO SHE WAS GETTING PUMMELED BY THE SOUTHERN MEDIA WHO WERE SAYING, SHE IS HORRIBLE AND
[00:18:06] SHE'S A TRAITOR.
[00:18:09] AND THE NORTHERN MEDIA THAT JUST SAID THAT SHE IS AWFUL AND SHE
[00:18:13] IS REALLY A SOUTHERNER AND SHE IS HOLDING HIM BACK ON SAVORY.
[00:18:17] >> WHAT ABOUT THE SHOPPING.
[00:18:19] >> THE SHOPPING IS COMPLICATED.
[00:18:23] AND I'M REALLY EMPATHETIC WITH THIS.
[00:18:26] >> I AM TOO. >> I MEAN, WE ALL UNDERSTAND
[00:18:29] SHOPPING THERAPY, RIGHT?
[00:18:32] NOW, NOT THEN, BUT NOW, IT IS A DIAGNOSTIC THING.
[00:18:37] THERE IS SOMETHING CALLED SHOPPING COMPULSIVE DISORDER.
[00:18:40] AND SHE DID HAVE THAT. AND PEOPLE WHO SHOP LIKE THAT,
[00:18:44] THEY REALLY ARE TRYING TO FILL A WRITE IN THEIR LIVES. THERE ARE A MILLION DIFFERENT
[00:18:47] THINGS YOU COULD DO.
[00:18:52] YOU COULD BECOME AN ALCOHOL.
[00:18:57] SHE WAS JUST AN OBSESSIVE SHOPPER.
[00:18:59] AND SHE DID APPROACH SHOPPING
[00:19:04] LIKE AN ALCOHOLIC WOULD. SHE WOULD HIDE THE BILLS. SHE WOULD BUY THINGS.
[00:19:08] SHE WOULD BUY BOXES SHE WOULD NEVER OPEN.
[00:19:11] AND WHEN HE DIED, SHE WAS IN
[00:19:13] DEBT BY I THINK IT WAS THE
[00:19:17] EQUIVALENT OF $100,000. I DON'T REMEMBER EXACTLY.
[00:19:21] SHE HAD TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO PAY THAT OFF.
[00:19:24] WHAT SHE DIDN'T ANTICIPATE WAS THAT THE MEDIA WOULD BE
[00:19:27] INTERESTED IN HER SHOPPING.
[00:19:31] I JUST WANT TO SAY, MARY WAS
[00:19:34] PROBABLY ONE OF THE FIRST MODERN FIRST LADIES. SHE TOOK THIS TRIP TO NEW YORK A
[00:19:38] MONTH AFTER THE WAR STARTS. SHE TOOK IT WITH THE GENERAL WHO
[00:19:42] WAS THE HERO AFTER THE WAR STARTED.
[00:19:46] THIS WAS SO UNUSUAL FOR MARY TO GO OUT AND TAKE A TRIP WITH THE GENERAL TO NEW YORK.
[00:19:50] DURING THAT TRIP, SHE DID ALL OF
[00:19:53] THESE AMAZING THINGS. SHE VISITED ENCAMPMENTS AND WENT
[00:19:56] TO DRILLS AND VISITED A WORSHIP. SHE WENT TO AN ABOLITIONIST
[00:19:58] CHURCH WHICH WAS JUST EXTRAORDINARY.
[00:20:01] AND SHE SHOULD HAVE BEEN JUST
[00:20:06] ELEVATED AS THIS INCREDIBLE WOMAN. BUT INSTEAD WHAT HAPPENED, SHE DECIDED TO SHOP ON THE TRIP AS
[00:20:10] WELL.
[00:20:12] SO NOW SHE HAS THE ATTENTION OF THE MEDIA WHO ARE SAYING, MY
[00:20:16] GOD, THIS WOMAN IS GREAT.
[00:20:18] SHE WENT TO THIS CHURCH AND THIS IS AMAZING.
[00:20:21] SHE IS TAKING A STAND. SO WE WILL FOLLOW HER INTO THE STORES.
[00:20:25] AND THAT WAS THE END OF IT. ALL THE GREAT STUFF SHE HAD DONE
[00:20:28] ON THAT TRIP WAS FORGOTTEN.
[00:20:30] AND SHE, FROM THAT MOMENT ON,
[00:20:33] EVERYONE JUST PAID AN ENORMOUS ATTENTION TO HER SHOPPING AND
[00:20:36] HER DEBT.
[00:20:39] >> SHE DID HAVE COME WHAT WE
[00:20:41] WOULD DIAGNOSED, AS MENTAL HEALTH CHALLENGES AND ILLNESSES
[00:20:44] THROUGHOUT HER LIFE.
[00:20:48] SHE LOSES HER SON WILLIE IN 1860 TO IN THE WHITE HOUSE.
[00:20:52] IF YOU CAN TALK ABOUT THAT. THAT PUTS HER INTO A DEEP
[00:20:56] DEPRESSION. AND OF COURSE, ABRAHAM LINCOLN,
[00:20:57] HER HUSBAND, IS MURDERED WHILE
[00:21:01] SHE IS HOLDING HIS HAND. WE KNOW THIS.
[00:21:04] WE KNOW MARY LINCOLN IS WITH HIM WHEN HE DIES.
[00:21:08] BUT WE DON'T ACTUALLY FOCUS ON WHAT THAT IMPACT IS ON HER.
[00:21:12] IT IS REALLY GREAT IN YOUR BOOK. YOU OBVIOUSLY COVER THE ASSASSINATION.
[00:21:16] YOU ALSO COVER IT THROUGH HER
[00:21:17] EYES AND WHAT SHE SAW.
[00:21:20] CAN YOU TALK ABOUT THOSE TWO EVENTS AND WHAT EFFECT THAT HAD
[00:21:23] ON HER MENTAL HEALTH?
[00:21:28] >> MARY CLEARLY HAD MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES. I WILL SAY THIS.
[00:21:30] THEY COULD HAVE BEEN TACKLED
[00:21:33] TODAY. ONE OF HER BIGGEST ISSUES WAS
[00:21:36] VERY HIGH ANXIETY. LINCOLN WAS A DEPRESSIVE AND
[00:21:40] MARY WAS MANIC. THAT IS HOW THEY GOT TO THE WHITE HOUSE. BECAUSE HE WAS SO THOUGHTFUL AND
[00:21:44] PENSIVE AND SHE HAD THE MANIA TO PROPEL HIM BECAUSE HE WOULD GO
[00:21:48] INTO THESE FOLKS. AND ALSO, SHE HAD THIS ANXIETY.
[00:21:51] AND OVER THE YEARS, IT HAS BEEN
[00:21:55] REFERRED TO IN ALL THESE BIOGRAPHIES OF HER AS TEMPER. BUT IT WAS REALLY ANXIETY.
[00:21:58] SHE WOULD HAVE THESE BLOWUPS AND THEN SHE WOULD FORGET ABOUT
[00:22:00] THEM.
[00:22:03] SHE ALSO HAD CLEARLY PTSD.
[00:22:06] AND WE DIDN'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT PTSD BACK THEN.
[00:22:10] SHE LOSES THREE CHILDREN BEFORE ADULTHOOD AND THEN HER HUSBAND IS SHOT IN FRONT OF HER.
[00:22:14] IT IS REALLY AMAZING THAT THE
[00:22:16] WOMAN WAS STILL STANDING.
[00:22:19] WHEN HER SON DIES IN THE WHITE HOUSE, SHE HAS BEEN HANGING ON
[00:22:23] ALL THESE YEARS. AND LINCOLN HELPED HER. HE WOULD CALM HER DOWN.
[00:22:26] WHEN HER SON DIES IN THE WHITE
[00:22:28] HOUSE, IT WAS HER FAVORITE SON,
[00:22:32] SHE DID TAKE A TURN FOR THE WORSE. IT WAS VERY HARD FOR HER TO
[00:22:36] RECOVER FROM THAT. HE WAS ONLY 11 YEARS OLD.
[00:22:40] AND SHE COULDN'T ATTEND ANY OF THE FUNERAL SERVICES OR THE MEMORIAL.
[00:22:43] SHE STAYED IN HER ROOM AND CRIED. AND SHE WAS STARTING TO COME OUT
[00:22:47] OF IT. AND LINCOLN WAS KILLED. AND THAT IS WHAT CENTER INTO THE
[00:22:50] REAL SPIRAL.
[00:22:53] >> A GOOD PORTION OF THE BOOK IS ACTUALLY THE TIME AFTER
[00:22:57] LINCOLN'S DEATH. AND SHE GOES ON TO LIVE FOR MANY
[00:23:01] MANY YEARS. TELL US ABOUT THAT TIME FRAME. AND THEN WE ARE GOING TO BRING
[00:23:05] IN THE OTHER PERSON THAT YOU REFERRED TO, HER SON, HER
[00:23:07] SURVIVING SON, ROBERT.
[00:23:11] >> SO IT WAS JUST TRAGIC HOW MARY WAS TREATED.
[00:23:14] YOU LOOK AT FIRST LADIES TODAY
[00:23:16] AND A COUPLE OF THINGS HAPPENED TODAY. FIRST OF ALL, PEOPLE TRY TO RISE
[00:23:20] UP AND SUPPORT THEM. IF THEY DON'T HAVE MONEY, THEIR
[00:23:23] FRIENDS BUY THEM A HOUSE.
[00:23:25] AND ALSO, THE FORMER PRESIDENT'S
[00:23:28] ADVISORS, FOR THE SAKE OF THE
[00:23:30] PRESIDENT'S LEGACY, WILL FORM A BARRIER AROUND HER TO PROTECT HER.
[00:23:34] NONE OF THAT HAPPENED. PEOPLE JUST WANTED HER TO GO
[00:23:37] AWAY, WHICH IS WHERE THE TITLE OF THE BOOK COMES FROM.
[00:23:39] IT'S LIKE, OKAY, ABRAHAM IS DEAD.
[00:23:42] NOW YOU NEED TO LEAVE THE STAGE.
[00:23:44] AND I JUST WASN'T GOING TO HAPPEN. A COUPLE OF THINGS.
[00:23:48] LINCOLN DIED. PEOPLE DON'T KNOW THIS BUT HE
[00:23:52] DIED WITH A LITTLE BIT OF WEALTH. HE DID NOT SPEND A PENNY OF HIS SALARY.
[00:23:56] BUT HE DIDN'T HAVE A WILL.
[00:23:57] HE DIED WITH AN ESTATE WORTH
[00:24:00] ABOUT 1.2 MILLION AT THAT
[00:24:05] MOMENT. ONE OF HIS CLOSE FRIENDS WAS SITTING ON THE SUPREME COURT AND
[00:24:09] HE BECAME THE EXECUTOR OF THE ESTATE. IN MY OPINION, THE ESTATE COULD
[00:24:12] HAVE BEEN SETTLED WITHIN A YEAR. THE EXECUTOR REFUSED TO SETTLE
[00:24:16] IT. AND LINCOLN HAD ONE DEBT THAT
[00:24:18] WAS PAID OFF FOR $11 FOR A NEWSPAPER SUBSCRIPTION.
[00:24:21] HE DID NOT WANT TO GIVE MARY MORE MONEY.
[00:24:25] SO HE GAVE HER AN ALLOWANCE, OF
[00:24:28] THE EQUIVALENT OF $50,000 A YEAR TODAY. THINK ABOUT IT.
[00:24:32] SHE LEFT THE WHITE HOUSE. SHE STILL HAS A CHILD THAT SHE IS RAISING.
[00:24:36] SHE DOES NOT HAVE ENOUGH MONEY
[00:24:37] TO BUY A HOUSE.
[00:24:42] AT THE TIME, NEWSPAPERS ALSO DID SOMETHING CALLED SUBSCRIPTIONS WHERE THEY WOULD TRY TO RAISE
[00:24:45] MONEY FOR HEROES. IT WAS TRIED.
[00:24:49] PEOPLE DO NOT WANT TO GIVE MONEY TO HER BECAUSE THEY THOUGHT SHE
[00:24:52] WOULD SPEND IT ON EVENING GOWNS, WHICH WAS KIND OF INTERESTING
[00:24:56] BECAUSE SHE WAS VIRTUALLY HOMELESS.
[00:24:58] SO SHE HAD A VERY HARD TIME SURVIVING.
[00:25:01] SHE IS LIVING OUT OF HOTELS. FINALLY, SHE DECIDES TO GO TO
[00:25:05] NEW YORK AND SELL HER CLOTHES.
[00:25:10] NOT REALLY A SCANDAL BUT IT WAS NOT DONE AT THAT TIME.
[00:25:14] 100 YEARS LATER, JACKIE KENNEDY DID IT AND EVERYBODY THOUGHT IT
[00:25:16] WAS FINE. MARY DOES IT.
[00:25:20] SHE TAKES A TRAIN TO NEW YORK UNDER A PSEUDO NAME AND HAS HER SEAMSTRESS COME WITH HER.
[00:25:23] AND IT BECOMES AN INCREDIBLE SCANDAL WHEN EVERYONE FINDS OUT
[00:25:27] ABOUT IT. 2000 STORIES. THAT IS A LOT OF STORIES FOR
[00:25:31] 1875, BEING WRITTEN ABOUT IT.
[00:25:35] AND SHE IS HUMILIATED.
[00:25:37] SO SHE LEAVES AND GOES TO EUROPE
[00:25:39] SHORTLY THEREAFTER.
[00:25:44] AND BY THE TIME SHE COMES
[00:25:48] BACK -- SHE COMES BACK FOR A FEW YEARS.
[00:25:51] SHE LIVES WITH ROBERT A LITTLE BIT. AND SHE DOESN'T GET ALONG WITH HIS WIFE.
[00:25:55] SO SHE MOVES INTO A HOTEL AND
[00:25:59] THEN LEAVES IN SEARCH OF A SPIRITUALIST, WHICH DROVE HER
[00:26:01] SON CRAZY. SHE HAS ONE SON LEFT NOW.
[00:26:04] AND HE IS OBSESSED WITH HER.
[00:26:08] BOTH WITH HER SHOPPING AND THE
[00:26:12] SÉANCES. >> AND HE IS AN UP AND COMER
[00:27:17] SO HE'S AN UP AND WORRIED ABOUT HIS REPUTATION.
[00:27:21] HE'S NOT HIS FATHER'S SON, BUT HE THINKS HE IS. HE'S HIS MOTHER'S SON. HE'S MUCH MORE EMOTIONAL. HE CARES ABOUT APPEARANCES, AND SHE'S OUT THERE STILL GETTING ATTENTION BY
[00:27:25] SELLING HER CLOTHES AND GOING TO SEANCES. SHE FINALLY LEAVES. THE CITY 10 YEARS AFTER LINCOLN'S DEATH, SHE'S IN FLORIDA, AND I BELIEVE SHE HAS AN EPISODE OF
[00:27:28] PTSD. THERE ARE, THERE ARE, THERE ARE MEMORIES OF HIM EVERYWHERE. HE'S IN SHOP WINDOWS. SHE GETS IT IN HER HEAD. SHE'S ALSO ON MEDICATIONS SHE SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN ON.
[00:27:32] MAYBE SHE HAD A BAD DREAM. SHE DECIDES THAT ROBERT'S DYING. HE'S FINE. HE'S JUST PRACTICING LAW, HAPPY SHE'S IN FLORIDA, DOESN'T REALLY WANT HER TO COME
[00:27:36] BACK. SHE DECIDES HE'S DYING. SENDS HIM A WIRE, SAYS, DON'T DIE. I'M COMING, AND YOU CAN HAVE MY MONEY. SHE GETS ON A TRAIN AND UM BY THE TIME SHE
[00:27:39] GETS TO CHICAGO, WHO KNOWS WHAT DRUGS SHE WAS ON SHE WAS DEFINITELY ON A LOT OF SEDATIVES AND HER BEHAVIOR WAS A LITTLE BIT ODD. SHE IS IN A HOTEL, SHE'S STILL SHOPPING. ROBERT
[00:27:43] GETS WIND THAT THERE WERE STRANGE PEOPLE COMING IN AND OUT OF HOTEL ROOM, WHICH WE THINK ARE THE SPIRITUALISTS AND AFTER ABOUT A MONTH, HE JUST CAN'T
[00:27:47] TAKE IT ANYMORE AND HE GOES TO HIS FATHER'S FRIENDS AND I'M NOT SURE WHAT HE COULDN'T TAKE IF IT WAS THE SHOPPING, IF IT WAS THE SPIRITUALIST, BUT WHATEVER IT
[00:27:51] WAS, PEOPLE WERE SAYING THINGS TO HIM THAT HER BEHAVIOR WAS A LITTLE BIT IDIOSYNCRATIC. HE GOES TO HIS FATHER'S FRIENDS AND HE SAYS WE GOT TO GET HER OFF
[00:27:54] THE STREET AND SHE'S REALLY NOT BOTHERING ANYONE, AND HE, HE MAKES AN EFFORT TO HAVE HER COMMITTED. AND HE RIGS A TRIAL. AND BASICALLY BY THE TIME HE
[00:27:58] TOOK OUT A SECRET WARRANT FOR
[00:28:02] HER ARREST, SAID SHE WAS
[00:28:06] INSANE -- BY THE TIME MARY IS APPROACHED
[00:28:10] BY ANOTHER FRIEND OF ABRAHAM LINCOLN'S, THERE IS A SITTING JURY, THERE IS A JUDGE, AND
[00:28:13] THERE IS A PACKED COURTROOM AND
[00:28:17] THIS IS WHAT HER SON DID TO HER. IT'S, IT'S AN INCREDIBLY SAD STORY TO READ, BUT I THINK THE BEST PART OF THE STORY IS, I MEAN, SHE ENDS UP OBVIOUSLY IN
[00:28:21] A, UH, A MENTAL HOSPITAL IN A,
[00:28:23] IN A SANATORIUM, BUT TELL US
[00:28:26] HOW, WHAT HAPPENS WHAT, 4 MONTHS
[00:28:30] LATER. >> SO SHE'S IN THE SANITARIUM AND SHE'S PRETTY DEPRESSED AND, UM, AND SHE WON'T
[00:28:33] TALK TO ANYBODY, AND THEY'RE
[00:28:40] WORRIED ABOUT HER AND A REPORTER SHOWS UP AND FOR GOD KNOWS WHAT REASON THE HEAD OF THE SANITARIUM THINKS IT'S A GOOD
[00:28:43] IDEA. TO LET THE REPORTER TALK
[00:28:46] TO MARY. AND MARY ALL OF A SUDDEN HAS
[00:28:50] SOMEBODY FROM THE OUTSIDE WORLD, AND SHE'S SITTING THERE THINKING, WOW, THIS IS
[00:28:54] AMAZING. THERE'S STUFF GOING ON OUT THERE.
[00:28:57] AND THE REPORTER IS TRYING TO BE NICE AND THE REPORTER TELLS HER THAT PEOPLE
[00:29:00] ARE ASKING ABOUT HER AND PEOPLE
[00:29:03] ARE WORRIED ABOUT HER. ANYWAY, THAT'S ALL MARY NEEDED.
[00:29:07] SHE ALL OF A SUDDEN SNAPPED OUT
[00:29:09] OF THIS THING.
[00:29:13] THIS IS ABOUT SIX WEEKS INTO HER STAY.
[00:29:16] SHE SNAPS OUT OF WHATEVER SHE'S IN AND SAYS, I'VE GOT TO GET MYSELF OUT OF HERE. AND OH, AND ONE THING ROBERT,
[00:29:20] AFTER HE GETS HER CONFINED, HE DECIDES TO TAKE AN EXTENDED VACATION IN NEW HAMPSHIRE, WHICH IS LIKE ONE OF MY FAVORITE
[00:29:24] STORIES. HE'S LIKE, ALL RIGHT, I'VE GOT HER TUCKED AWAY. SHE
[00:29:28] CAN'T GET OUT.
[00:29:30] SHE'S LEGALLY STUCK IN THERE. I'M JUST GOING
[00:29:33] TO GO TO THE BEACH WITH MY FAMILY.
[00:29:37] SO MARY WRITES A LETTER TO A COUPLE THAT SHE KNOWS.
[00:29:39] THEY'RE TWO INCREDIBLY PROMINENT
[00:29:43] LAWYERS.
[00:29:44] HE'S A JUDGE, WOMAN'S LAWYER.
[00:29:48] THEY USED TO BE HER NEIGHBORS. SHE WRITES THEM A LETTER AND KEEP IN MIND ALL THEY
[00:29:52] KNOW, THEY HAVEN'T SEEN HER NOW FOR SIX WEEKS. ALL THEY KNOW IS
[00:29:56] THAT SHE'S IN THE SANITARIUM. SHE SAYS, COME TO BELLEVUE TOMORROW AND BRING THE EDITOR OF THE CHICAGO SUN-TIMES WITH YOU. SO IMAGINE GETTING THAT LETTER
[00:30:00] FROM THE FORMER FIRST LADY WHO'S
[00:30:00] IN AN INSANE ASYLUM, AND THEY
[00:30:06] LOOK AT EACH OTHER AND THEY GO, OK, SOMETHING'S UP HERE. UM, SO THEY GO, THEY GET ON A TRAIN AND
[00:30:10] THEY GO TO NEXT DAY. THEY DID
[00:30:14] NOT BRING THE EDITOR WITH THEM BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO MAKE SURE SHE WAS COMPOS MENTIS, AND SHE TELLS THEM HER STORY, AND, AND MARY, I MEAN, SHE COULD BE
[00:30:17] HYSTERICAL SOMETIMES, BUT SHE WAS NOT.
[00:30:20] SHE WAS COMPLETELY SANE AND SAID, I DON'T BELONG HERE.
[00:30:24] GET ME OUT OF HERE. AND THEY AGREED WITH HER AND THEY
[00:30:28] THOUGHT, WHY IS SHE IN HERE?
[00:30:31] THEY GO TO THE DIRECTOR. THEY SAY, OK, SHE'S A LITTLE BIT OFF, BUT SHE'S NO MORE INSANE THAN I
[00:30:35] AM. AND SHE, MARY, WITH THE TWO LAWYERS LAUNCHED A PUBLIC RELATIONS CAMPAIGN TO GET MARY OUT OF THE SANITARIUM, ALL THE
[00:30:37] WHILE, WHILE ROBERT IS SUNNING IN NEW HAMPSHIRE.
[00:30:41] SO HE'S HEARING THESE STORIES, BUT HE, HE'S NOT GETTING IT, YOU KNOW,
[00:30:43] HE'S NOT GETTING THAT THERE'S
[00:30:49] REALLY SOME MOMENTUM GOING ON
[00:30:51] HERE UNTIL HE GETS A LETTER FROM
[00:30:54] THE HEAD OF THE SANITARIUM.
[00:30:59] WHO SAYS, OK, I THINK SHE'S DOING
[00:31:02] REALLY WELL. I THINK MAYBE SHE SHOULD GO VISIT HER SISTER
[00:31:06] BECAUSE THIS POOR DOCTOR IS NOW, HE, HE'S SUPPOSED TO BE RUNNING A HOME FOR WEALTHY WOMEN WHO ARE
[00:31:09] UNDER STRESS, AND NOW IT LOOKS
[00:31:11] LIKE HE'S KEEPING THE WIFE OF
[00:31:13] ABE HALL LINCOLN A PRISONER.
[00:31:17] THE LAWYERS ARE THREATENING
[00:31:19] TO SUE HIM, AND ROBERT WRITES
[00:31:23] BACK, DO NOT LET HER GO.
[00:31:25] DO NOT DO THIS -- AND THE GUY IS GOING, I DON'T WANT TO DO THIS ANYMORE,
[00:31:29] YOU KNOW, JUST COME HOME FROM NEW HAMPSHIRE.
[00:31:32] WE GOT TO GET HER OUT OF HERE.
[00:31:35] AND MARY GETS HERE'S OUT, IT WAS
[00:31:37] JUST AN INCREDIBLE STORY.
[00:31:44] SHE GETS
[00:31:44] HERSELF OUT IN 3.5 MONTHS. I
[00:31:49] >> THAT'S REMARKABLE. I WANT TO ASK YOU A QUESTION AND WE'RE GOING TO GO TO THE AUDIENCE HERE PRETTY SOON FOR
[00:31:52] QUESTIONS FOR LOIS, BUT I WANT
[00:31:54] TO ASK YOU A QUESTION. SO WE
[00:31:57] KNOW THAT HERNDON DOES A NUMBER ON HER WITH HIS SPEECHES AND, AND HOW HE CHARACTERIZES HER, AND WE KNOW THAT HER OWN SON, WHAT HE, UM, THE, THE TUMULTUOUS
[00:32:01] RELATIONSHIP THEY END UP HAVING.
[00:32:03] BUT IT, IT'S NOT JUST THEM.
[00:32:11] THERE HAS TO BE OTHERS. THERE'S HISTORIANS WHO THEN PICK UP THE
[00:32:15] STORY, AND IT IS PASSED DOWN, YOU KNOW, OVER DECADES AND DECADES TO THE POINT WHERE WE HAVE THIS CONCEPTION OF MARY LINCOLN IN OUR HEADS THAT SHE'S, UH, THAT SHE HAD A MENTAL
[00:32:19] ILLNESS, THAT SHE'S UNSTABLE, ALL THESE OTHER, OTHER THINGS. SO TELL US, HOW DO WE, HOW DO WE GET FROM THERE TO HERE. AND GIVE US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT
[00:32:23] HISTORIOGRAPHY AND WHY, I MEAN,
[00:32:25] ULTIMATELY, WHY IS YOUR BOOK SO IMPORTANT?
[00:32:29] >> SO THIS IS HOW WE GOT FROM THERE TO THE HOTTEST PLAY
[00:32:33] ON BROADWAY, OH MARY, WHICH HAS
[00:32:39] MARY AS AN ALCOHOLIC FRUSTRATED CABARET SINGER, AND THE REASON WE GOT HERE IS BECAUSE WE
[00:32:42] INHERITED THIS NARRATIVE OF
[00:32:46] MARY THAT ALLOWED ANYONE TO SAY
[00:32:48] ANYTHING ABOUT HER. SO EARLY BIOGRAPHERS, AND, AND IT GOES TO
[00:32:52] THIS, UM, MEN DIDN'T, I MEAN BIOGRAPHERS WERE MOSTLY MEN BACK THEN, AND THEY DIDN'T REALLY
[00:32:56] COVER. FIRST LADIES AND SO WHAT
[00:32:59] -- COVER FIRST LADIES. AND SO WHAT THEY WOULD DO, WHICH IS A HABIT IN JOURNALISM, ALL OF US DO A
[00:33:03] LITTLE BIT OF IT, THEY WENT BACK TO THE PREVIOUS STORIES AND YOU
[00:33:05] KEEP GOING BACK AND YOU KEEP
[00:33:14] GOING BACK AND YOU COME BACK TO HERNDON AND HIS TWO VOLUME BOOK THAT HE FINALLY WROTE AND THEN YOU COME BACK TO HER SON WHO WAS THE SECRETARY WHO EVENTUALLY
[00:33:18] BECAME THE SECRETARY OF WAR,
[00:33:21] HAVING HER COMMITTED AND THAT'S
[00:33:23] WHERE YOU LAND. AND THEN YOU COME, YOU FIND SOME NUGGETS OF SHE COULD BE UNPLEASANT. SHE WAS
[00:33:27] A COMPULSIVE SHOPPER, AND SOMEHOW THAT TURNS INTO SHE WAS
[00:33:30] THIS HUGE BURDEN ON ABRAHAM
[00:33:31] LINCOLN, WHICH SHE WAS NOT, AND
[00:33:37] WE WEDNESDAY UP WITH "OH, MARY"
[00:33:46] ON BROADWAY, THIS IS BY THE WAY,
[00:33:52] A FABULOUS PLAY.
[00:33:54] I HAVE TO TELL YOU I'M NO CRITICAL OF IT AT ALL.
[00:33:58] I MEAN, IT IS FUN.
[00:34:03] >> IT IS FUNNY.
[00:34:07] >> IT REALLY IS FUNNY, AND, AND THEY HAVE BEEN ENORMOUSLY SUPPORTIVE OF THIS BOOK, BELIEVE IT OR NOT, UM, AND SO I LOOKED BACK ON WHAT HAD
[00:34:11] BEEN DONE, AND THERE WERE TWO BOOKS THAT I WOULD SAY, UM,
[00:34:14] TRIED TO REHABILITATE HER. ONE WAS BY RUTH PAINTER RANDALL,
[00:34:18] WHOSE HUSBAND WAS A FAMOUS
[00:34:20] LITTLE SCHOLAR. AND RUTH DID HER BOOK IN 1953, UH, LIMITED SCHOLARSHIP AVAILABLE, AND IT
[00:34:24] WAS AN EXTREMELY SYMPATHETIC BOOK, UH, BUT IT DOESN'T REALLY EXPLAIN A LOT OF THIS. AND THEN 35 YEARS AGO, JEAN BAKER DOES AN INCREDIBLY GOOD BOOK, UM, AND
[00:34:28] WHICH I THINK, UH, WAS THE LAST GREAT, UH, THING WRITTEN ON MARY, AND, AND AS GOOD AS JEAN BAKER'S BOOK IS, SHE DIDN'T HAVE
[00:34:32] A LOT OF SCHOLARSHIP AVAILABLE
[00:34:35] TO HER.
[00:34:36] AND SHE CERTAINLY HAVEN'T
[00:34:39] DIGITAL RESOURCES AVAILABLE TO
[00:34:42] HER. >> GREAT.
[00:34:46] SO SUM IT UP FOR US. WHAT CAN WE LEARN
[00:34:49] FROM MARY LINCOLN AND, AND
[00:34:50] YOU'RE GONNA HAVE, YOU'RE IN
[00:34:55] PURSUIT ESSAY THAT'S GOING TO BE COMING OUT IN A FEW WEEKS, OPPOSITE PRESIDENT OBAMA, WHO'S
[00:34:59] WRITTEN THE ESSAY ON ABRAHAM LINCOLN, AND WE'RE ASKING ALL OF OUR AUTHORS, YOU KNOW, WHAT CAN
[00:35:01] WE LEARN FROM THIS PERSON'S
[00:35:06] LIFE? WHAT CAN WE LEARN FROM THEIR EXPERIENCES IN LEADERSHIP?
[00:35:09] SO WHAT CAN WE LEARN FROM MAR LINCOLN?
[00:35:12] >> SO NOT ONLY IS THIS A VERY GOOD QUESTION, BUT, UM, COLLEEN INSPIRED ME ON THIS POINT BECAUSE I HADN'T QUITE
[00:35:16] THOUGHT ABOUT IT, AND I WOULD SAY THAT THE BIGGEST TAKEAWAY THAT WE HAVE FROM MARY, FIRST OF ALL, SHE WAS A VERY CONSEQUENTIAL FIRST LADY, WHICH
[00:35:20] WE DIDN'T REALLY GET INTO, BUT RESILIENCE, AND YOU CAN'T
[00:35:23] MEASURE SOMEONE'S RESILIENCE IN
[00:35:28] REALTIME. YOU CAN ONLY MEASURE SOMEONE'S RESILIENCE LONG AFTER THEY'RE ALIVE OR THEY'VE BEEN
[00:35:32] THROUGH STUFF. SO HERE WE HAVE A WOMAN WHO'S
[00:35:35] LOST THREE CHILDREN.
[00:35:38] WHO'S GONE THROUGH A CIVIL WA
[00:35:41] THAT 750,000 PEOPLE DIED. HER HUSBAND IS SHOT IN FRONT OF HER,
[00:35:45] AND SHE LIVES 17 YEARS, AND SHE GETS UP EVERY DAY AND PUTS HER BLACK DRESS ON AND CRIES AND
[00:35:48] TRIES TO MAKE SENSE OF HER LIFE. AND EVERY DAY SHE WISHES SHE
[00:35:52] WERE DEAD AND SHE JUST WISHES
[00:35:56] SHE COULD JOIN HIM. AND ONE DAY A SPIRITUALIST TELLS HER THAT
[00:35:59] HER TIME IS COMING AND SO SHE WRITES HER ALREADY.
[00:36:02] IT'S AN INCREDIBLE -- I GET
[00:36:05] CHOKED UP THINKING ABOUT -- IF YOU DO ANYTHING, TRY TO READ THE
[00:36:09] EPILOGUE OF MY BOOK BECAUSE IT WILL BRING YOU TO TEARS WHEN YOU PUT ALL TOGETHER WHAT SHE HAD GONE THROUGH AND WHAT SHE
[00:36:12] CONTRIBUTED TO THIS COUNTRY THAT WAS NEVER ACKNOWLEDGED.
[00:36:15] IT WILL RIP YOUR HEART OUT.
[00:36:18] >> GREAT, AND ALSO, I WOULD SAY,
[00:36:22] MAYBE FIRST AMONGST MANY OF FIRST LADIES THAT ARE MISUNDERSTOOD,
[00:36:25] CORRECT? >> TOTALLY MISUNDERSTOOD.
[00:36:29] AND THEN SHE WAS A VER
[00:36:33] CONTRARY FIRST LADY. I MEAN, I HAVE TO SAY THAT.
[00:36:37] >> SHE WAS THE FIRST MODERN
[00:36:39] FIRST LADY, RIGHT?
[00:36:43] >> SHE WAS THE FIRST FIRST LADY
[00:36:46] THAT BECAME THE FACE OF THE
[00:36:49] ADMINISTRATION IN THE MIDDLE OF
[00:36:52] A WAR. AND I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHO ELSE, WELL, ELEANOR ROOSEVELT WE HAD, BUT I
[00:36:56] MEAN NOBODY PRIOR TO HER, PRIOR TO HER, EVERYBODY WAS JUST THE WHITE HOUSE FIRST LADIES WOULD STAY UPSTAIRS OR THEY WOULD GO
[00:36:59] TO ELEMENTS. AND SHE BECAME THE FACE OF THE WAR AND SHE
[00:37:02] BECAME A MEDIA PERSONALITY WHICH
[00:37:04] NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE. >> GREAT, SO
[00:37:08] WE'RE GOING TO GO TO QUESTIONS, FOR LO IS.
[00:37:12] SO IF ANYBODY HAS ANY QUESTIONS, PLEASE RAISE YOUR
[00:37:14] HAND AND WE'LL BRING YOU A
[00:37:21] MICROPHONE. YES, YES.
[00:37:25] COMING AROUND.
[00:37:31] >> COULD YOU TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT HOW YOUR EXPERIENCE IN JOURNALISM SPARKED
[00:37:34] YOUR INTEREST OR FLAVORED THE WAYWROTE THIS BOOK?
[00:37:38] >> YES, I CAN, AND I CAN ALSO
[00:37:43] ADD TO THAT MY EXPERIENCE AS A WOMAN IN JOURNALISM.
[00:37:47] I THINK IT PROMPTED ME TO TAKE A
[00:37:54] VERY DEEP LOOK BUT NOT A TOTALLY ACADEMIC LOOK.
[00:37:58] SO WHAT I MEAN BY THAT IS THAT THE BOOK IS INCREDIBLY SCHOLARLY AND WELL SOURCED, BUT
[00:38:01] I ALSO, UM, TAKE THE TIME TO TRY TO INTERPRET SOME OF WHAT
[00:38:03] HAPPENED AND TO PUT MY OWN UM MY
[00:38:06] OWN INTERPRETATION ON WHAT SHE
[00:38:07] WENT THROUGH AND I BACK IT UP,
[00:38:11] WITH SCHOLARSHIP. AND AS A
[00:38:13] WOMAN JOURNALIST, WE WERE, UM,
[00:38:21] IT WAS, I CAME, I STOOD ON A LOT
[00:38:24] OF PEOPLE'S SHOULDERS. I MEAN, I DIDN'T HAVE A BAD TIME, BUT IT WAS NOT, IT WAS NOT EASY COMING
[00:38:28] UP IN JOURNALISM AS A WOMAN IN
[00:38:31] 2 THE 19 EIGHTH AND EARLY 1990'S, AND JUST
[00:38:35] HAVING THAT EXPERIENCE AND COVERING HIGH PROFILE POLITICIANS AS A WOMAN AND SEEING WHAT MARY HAD GONE THROUGH, DEFINITELY, I WAS ABLE
[00:38:39] TO FILTER A LOT OF THAT INTO
[00:38:42] THIS BIOGRAPHY. THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION, THOUGH.
[00:38:44] THANK YOU FOR ASKING IT. >> OTHER QUESTIONS? YES.
[00:38:47] RIGHT OVER HERE, SIR?
[00:38:54] >> THE STORY THAT I'M MOST FAMILIAR WITH REGARDING, I'M NOT A BIG LINCOLN JUNKIE, BUT THE STORY
[00:38:58] I'M MOST FAMILIAR WITH ABOUT MARY TODD IS THE STORY ABOUT
[00:39:00] WHEN LINCOLN WENT DOWN IN 1865
[00:39:03] TO RICHMOND AND HE WENT OUT ON A
[00:39:05] RIDE WITH A YOUNG GENERAL AND HE ENDED UP RIDING WITH THE YOUNG
[00:39:09] GENERAL'S WIFE AND MARY, FROM
[00:39:11] EVERYTHING I'VE READ, HAD A
[00:39:14] REAL MELTDOWNOVER THAT.
[00:39:18] >> SHE HAD A MELTDOWN.
[00:39:21] >> AND I GUESS WHERE I'M GOING
[00:39:25] WITH THAT IS -- DO YOU -- ARE
[00:39:29] THERE GOOD STORIES ABOUT MARY LINCOLN OUT THERE?
[00:39:32] >> THAT'S A VERY GOOD QUESTION.
[00:39:37] THAT STORY YOU'RE TELLING, SHE
[00:39:39] HAD A TOTAL MELTDOWN IN
[00:39:46] 1865, RIGHT BEFORE THE WAR ENDED.
[00:39:49] AND WHAT I SAY IN THE BOOK IS THAT SHE LOST HER ABILITY TO CONTROL HER EMOTIONS,
[00:39:53] AND, I MEAN SHE FELT
[00:39:59] MARGINALIZED. SHE THOUGHT THE GENERALS' WIVES WERE STEPPING IN
[00:40:02] FRONT OF HER.
[00:40:04] IT WAS
[00:40:06] NOT A GOOD MOMENT FOR HER. SHE
[00:40:10] HAD MOMENTS LIKE THAT, UM, BUT
[00:40:13] WHO AMONG US HASN'T?
[00:40:16] AND SO MY POINT IS, IN WRITING THE BOOK,
[00:40:19] AND I SAY THIS IN THE BOOK, IS THAT THERE WAS NOT, THERE'S NOT BEEN A WELL-ROUNDED STORY ON
[00:40:22] HER, SO HER LEGACY WAS INCOMPLETE.
[00:40:26] YOU CAN RESEARCH ANY PROMINENT PERSON AND WRITE AND WRITE A WHOLE
[00:40:29] NEGATIVE STORYLINE ON THEM.
[00:40:32] BUT WHAT HINGES DIDN'T DO IS ROUND OUT HER STORY THAT SHE WAS BASICALLY A VERY GOOD FIRST LADY IN THE TIME OF
[00:40:36] WAR, WHO LOST BY THE, BY THE
[00:40:37] TIME THAT EPISODE HAPPENED, SHE
[00:40:41] HAD LOST TWO CHILDREN. AND SHE WAS PRETTY STRUNG OUT, AND
[00:40:44] SHE WANTED THE WAR TO BE OVER, AND HER, HER SON, HER LAST SON,
[00:40:46] UH, WELL, SHE HAD TWO SONS LEFT,
[00:40:49] WAS NOW SERVING.
[00:40:51] HE WASN'T IN
[00:40:54] THE FRONT LINES, BUT SHE DID NOT
[00:40:57] WANT HIM TO BE THERE. SHE LIVED IN FEAR OF LINCOLN BEING KILLED,
[00:41:01] UM, AND, AND AGAIN, SHE, SHE HAD MENTAL ILLNESS, AND THAT WAS, THAT WAS NOT HER FINEST MOMENT, BUT I WANTED TO STEP BACK AND, AND JUST DRAW A FULLER PICTURE
[00:41:05] OF HER, AND I HOPE I AT LEAST
[00:41:08] TRIED TO DO THAT HERE TODAY. >> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING
[00:41:12] HERE WITH US AND
[00:41:14] CONGRATULATIONS ON BEING THE
[00:41:17] ARCHIVIST, THAT'S AWESOME.
[00:41:19] QUESTION, YOU REFERENCED TWO BOOKS THAT YOU SAID WERE
[00:41:21] ESPECIALLY GOOD ABOUT MARY TODD
[00:41:26] LINCOLN. I'M WONDERING WHAT YOU
[00:41:28] THINK OF SOME OF THE HISTORICAL
[00:41:32] FICTION ABOUT HER, SO I'M THINKING ABOUT COURTING MR.
[00:41:35] LINCOLN, LOUIS BYARD, WHO HAS BEEN AT THIS FESTIVAL MANY TIMES.
[00:41:38] I LOVED THAT BOOK. I'D LIKE TO KNOW HOW ACCURATE AND WHETHER IT INFORMED ANY OF THAT
[00:41:42] INFORMED YOUR WORK OR WHETHER IT SHOULD INFORM OUR UNDERSTANDING OF HER AS A PERSON AND A LEADER
[00:41:46] >> FIRST LET ME SAY THAT THAT BOOK WAS VERY, VERY GOOD, AND I AM A HUGE
[00:41:50] FAN OF HIS, AND IN FACT, UM, HE WAS ONE OF THE FIRST PEOPLE I TOOK TO LUNCH WHEN I GOT THE BOOK CONTRACT, UM, SO I WOULD
[00:41:54] HIGHLY RECOMMEND THE BOOK, UM, AND THE BOOK WAS SO GOOD THAT I
[00:41:56] QUIZZED HIM THROUGHOUT THE BOOK.
[00:42:03] AND SAID IS THIS TRUE, IS THIS TRUE?
[00:42:06] AND A LOT OF IT WAS TRUE. ONCE
[00:42:09] IN A WHILE HE WOULD SAY, NO, I
[00:42:13] TOOK A LITTLE LIBERTY THERE.
[00:42:15] I THINK THAT WITH ALL FICTION,
[00:42:18] YOU HAVE TO KIND OF READ
[00:42:20] IT THROUGH A PRISM, UM, BUT, BUT
[00:42:24] LOU DOES THE WORK AND HE WOULD
[00:42:29] SPENDS HOURS AT THE OTHER -- AT
[00:42:33] THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS.
[00:42:37] AND HE HAD HIS OWN SHELF THERE.
[00:42:40] AND A LOT OF THE REALLY GOOD HISTORICAL FICTION WRITERS, THERE'S ANOTHER WOMAN. UM, FROM
[00:42:44] THE 1860S AND I'M TRYING TO REMEMBER, I THINK HER FIRST NAME
[00:42:46] WAS HONOR, UM, I CAN'T REMEMBER,
[00:42:50] BUT IT'S, H-O-N-O-R-E, AND SHE
[00:42:58] WROTE A FEW PIECES OF HISTORICAL FICTION ABOUT MARY, MAYBE WINSLOW, THAT WERE VERY, VERY GOOD AND THEN SHE STARTED WRITING NONFICTION ABOUT MARY IN
[00:43:02] MAGAZINES BECAUSE SHE WAS SO MOVED BY HER. BUT I WOULD
[00:43:06] DEFINITELY SAY, YOU KNOW, IF YOU WANT TO READ SOME FICTION, FIRST OF ALL, LOU IS GREAT, BUT ALSO JUST READ SOME OF THE REVIEWS TO MAKE SURE. BUT THERE'S SO MUCH
[00:43:10] RICH MATERIAL WITH THE LINCOLNS THAT'S JUST AMAZING THAT YOU KNOW THERE'S A LOT OF MATERIAL TO WORK WITH YOU.
[00:43:13] THANK YOU FOR THAT QUESTION. >> QUESTION RIGHT HERE.
[00:43:17] GO AHEAD.
[00:43:20] >> I JUST WONDER IF TODAY SHE WOULD HAVE BEEN DIAGNOSED AS BIPOLAR BECAUSE, I MEAN, IN
[00:43:24] OTHER WORDS, DOES SHE HAVE THESE MOOD SWINGS BEFORE ALL OF THIS DEVASTATING THINGS HAPPENED TO HER WITH HER SONS AND YOU KNOW
[00:43:27] LINCOLN.
[00:43:30] >> I'M NOT A DOCTOR, SO I DON'T
[00:43:32] KNOW BUT MY GUESS IS -- AND I
[00:43:36] ACTUALLY HAVE A PIECE OUT
[00:43:39] IN TIME THIS WEEK THAT GOES INTO THIS A LITTLE BIT.
[00:43:43] MY GUESS IS MY GUESS IS
[00:43:57] THAT SHE WOULD HAVE BEEN
[00:44:00] BY POLAR. SHE WOULD HAVE HAD HIGH
[00:44:04] ANXIETY, UM, SHE WOULD HAVE HAD
[00:44:04] PTSD, AND SHE WOULD HAVE BEEN ON PROZAC.
[00:44:08] BECAUSE OF ALL THESE THINGS THAT SHE HAD COULD HAVE BEEN DEALT WITH IN, IN A CONTEMPORARY SETTING, AND, AND KEEP IN MIND LINCOLN WAS A REAL
[00:44:12] DEPRESSIVE, AND IN THE 1840S AND 1950S HE WAS TAKING SOMETHING CALLED THE BLUE PILL WHICH HAD INCREDIBLY HIGH LEVELS OF MERCURY IN IT, AND HE EVEN SAID,
[00:44:16] I'M GOING TO STOP TAKING THEM BECAUSE THEY'RE MAKING ME CROSS. I THINK THEY PROBABLY HAD UPPERS
[00:44:18] IN THEM, BUT IT WAS BECAUSE HE WIZ SO DOWN ALL THE TIME.
[00:44:22] THE DIFFERENCE IN HOW THEIR LEGACIES ARE PORTRAYED AND AGAIN LINCOLN WAS THE PRESIDENT AND HE DID END THE WAR, BUT VERY LITTLE THE
[00:44:25] AGENCY IS GIVEN TO HIS DEPRESSION. IN FACT
[00:44:29] HISTORIANS THAT DO WRITE ABOUT IT TALK ABOUT IT AS, AS A SENSE OF IT GAVE HIM A SENSE OF MORAL
[00:44:31] AUTHORITY AGAINST A SENSE OF HUMANITY.
[00:44:34] IT GAVE MARY A SENSE OF HUGH
[00:44:36] MANTY AS WELL, I MEAN, AND
[00:44:39] EMPATHY.
[00:44:41] THERE'S A REAL DOUBLE STANDARD
[00:44:45] IN MENTAL HEALTH.
[00:44:46] I THINK IF ALL OF THIS, WE WOULD
[00:44:51] HAVE NOT KNOWN AS MUCH AS WE DO ABOUT MARY'S MENTAL HEALTH TODAY BECAUSE THE WHITE HOUSE WOULD HAVE PROTECTED HER, SHE WOULD
[00:44:54] HAVE HAD A THERAPIST, SHE WOULD
[00:44:56] HAVE BEEN ON MEDICATION. YES, THE MEDIA WOULD HAVE FERRETED OUT SOME OF THESE
[00:45:00] OUTBURSTS, BUT NOT TO THE EXTENT THAT SHE WAS UNTREATED, AND, UM,
[00:45:02] AND THEN PEOPLE JUST STARTE
[00:45:05] MAKING UP STUFF. IT BECAME EASY TO MAKE UP STUFF
[00:45:08] ABOUT HER. >> RIGHT HERE?
[00:45:11] >> SO, I HAD A QUESTION.
[00:45:16] I'M NOT SOMEBODY THAT, YOU KNOW, HAS RECENTLY DONE ANY DEEP DIVE INTO
[00:45:19] THE HISTORY OF PRESIDENT LINCOLN
[00:45:27] OR HIS WIFE OR THE PEOPLE AROUND HIM.
[00:45:29] I'M FAMILIAR WITH SOME OF THE HISTORY I READ ABOUT HIM
[00:45:33] GROWING UP AND THINGS I'VE ENCOUNTERED OVER THE YEARS. I, YOU KNOW, I THINK HE'S A VERY IMPORTANT FIGURE THAT I HAVE
[00:45:36] GREAT REVERENCE FOR AS AN AMERICAN.
[00:45:40] BY IN RECENT YEARS, I'M SEEN
[00:45:43] SEVERAL DIFFERENT SEVERAL
[00:45:52] DIFFERENT THINGS WHERE PEOPLE HAVE BEEN ASSERTING THAT HE WAS HOMOSEXUAL OR BISEXUAL OR HE HAD THESE
[00:45:55] RELATIONSHIPS WITH MEN, AND I
[00:45:58] DON'T NECESSARILY THINK THAT
[00:46:00] THAT WOULD BE A BAD THING WERE IT'S TRUE.
[00:46:04] BUT I WAS JUST CURIOUS FROM SOMEONE THAT'S KIND OF INVESTIGATED THEIR
[00:46:07] RELATIONSHIP AND THAT FAMILY,
[00:46:09] WHAT YOUR TAKE ON THAT IS.
[00:46:13] DO YOU THINK THERE'S POTENTIALLY ANY LEGITIMACY TO THAT OR NOT
[00:46:16] >> THE SHORT ANSWER IS I DON'T KNOW.
[00:46:19] HE HAD -- HE WASN'T
[00:46:22] MATURE SEXUALLY WHEN THEY GOT MARRIED.
[00:46:24] I MEAN, HE HAD GONE TO HOUSES OF
[00:46:28] PROSTITUTION. WHERE SOME OF THIS COME FROM, I
[00:46:32] THINK, WHEN HE WAS ON THE CIRCUIT AND WHEN HE WAS
[00:46:36] LIVING IN SPRINGFIELD, HE ROOMED
[00:46:37] WITH MEN AND THEY WOULD SHARE BEDS.
[00:46:40] THIS WAS NOT UNCOMMON IN FRONTIER TIMES SO I DON'T KNOW
[00:46:44] THAT YOU CAN READ THAT MUCH INTO IT.
[00:46:47] I DO THINK FROM THE WAY
[00:46:49] THAT THE LINCOLNS WROTE TO EACH OTHER.
[00:46:53] I DO THINK THEY LONGEDDED FOR EACH OTHER.
[00:46:56] I THINK THEY HAD AN ACTIVE SEXUAL LIFE AND WHEN THE FIRST SON DIES, SHE
[00:47:00] GET PREGNANT FROM FIVE MINUTES.
[00:47:02] I THINK THEY DID REAL FAMILY PLANNING.
[00:47:06] HE COULD HAVE BEEN BY SEXUAL.
[00:47:10] I HAVE NO IDEA, BUT I DO THINK IT COMES FROM
[00:47:14] SOME OF HIS MALE FRIENDSHIPS. HE HAD SOME CLOSE MALE FRIENDSHIPS. WE KNOW HE SLEPT IN THESE
[00:47:18] ROOMING HOUSES WITH MEN, SO IT'S
[00:47:20] HARD TO KNOW.
[00:47:22] >> WITHOUT SPOILING THE BOOK,
[00:47:27] IF YOU'RE ALLOWED TO, WAS THERE SOMETHING THAT YOU HAD TO CUT FROM THE BOOK THAT YOU COULD EITHER TELL US ABOUT NOW OR YOU WOULD HAVE LEFT IN IF YOU WERE
[00:47:31] ALLOWED MORE PAGES FROM YOUR PUBLISHER? >> THAT'S A REALLY GOOD QUESTION
[00:47:34] AND YES, THEY WERE ALWAYS ASKING
[00:47:37] ME TO CUT STUFF.
[00:47:42] SO HERE'S WHAT I MIGHT HAVE DONE.
[00:47:44] AND I CAN'T THINK OF A SPECIFIC
[00:47:49] INCIDENT THAT GOT LEFT ON THE CUTTING ROOM FLOOR. BUT WHAT I GOT REALLY EXCITED ABOUT
[00:47:53] WAS HOW MUCH WAS AVAILABLE IN CONTEMPORARY NEWSPAPER CLIPPINGS AND DIGITALIZED AND YOU CAN, YOU
[00:47:56] KNOW WHY I WAS EXCITED ABOUT IT BECAUSE I COVERED THIS STUFF AND
[00:47:59] SO WHEN I WAS WRITING THE BOOK, I WAS LIKE THIS IS JUST AMAZING.
[00:48:03] I MEAN, LOOK AT THESE
[00:48:04] CONVERSATIONS SHE'S HAVING WITH
[00:48:07] PEOPLE AND I PUT SO MUCH IN THERE AND THERE WAS JUST AMAZING
[00:48:10] NEW YORK TIMES, NEW YORK
[00:48:14] TRIBUNE. THE SPRINGFIELD PAPERS, AND THAT WAS SOME OF THE STUFF THAT SIMON AND SCHUSTER
[00:48:18] SAID, OH, IT'S A LITTLE TOO MUCH ON THE NEWSPAPER STUFF, AND IF I
[00:48:21] HAD A, IF I COULD GO BACK AND
[00:48:24] MAYBE I WILL AT SOME POINT, I
[00:48:27] WOULD PUT A LOT OF THOSE STORIES
[00:48:29] IN, AND IT ALSO -- THEY
[00:48:32] SHOWED -- AND I PUT A LITTLE BIT OF THIS IN THE BOOK -- HOW MEN
[00:48:36] ROW ABOUT WOMEN AT THE TIME, AND THERE'S THIS ONE STORY
[00:48:39] WHERE A REPORTER'S INTERVIEWING
[00:48:42] MARY AT A STATE DINNER AND HE'S
[00:48:47] TALKING ABOUT HER BEAUTIFUL PORCELAIN ARMS.
[00:48:50] FIRST OF ALL, THAT COULD NEVER
[00:48:52] GET IN THE PAPER TODAY.
[00:48:56] AND I REMEMBER A YOUNG EDITOR AT THE PUBLISHING
[00:49:00] HOUSE SAID TO ME DON'T YOU THINK WE SHOULD FLAG THIS AND SAY THAT
[00:49:02] THIS WAS A VERY SEXIST THING TO
[00:49:04] SAY AND I SAID BUT IT WASN'T THEN.
[00:49:07] I DON'T WANT TO CALL OUT THE
[00:49:09] POOR GUY, HE'S DEAD.
[00:49:12] THAT'S HOW PEOPLE WROTE ABOU
[00:49:16] PEOPLE. SO THERE'S A LOT OF INTERESTING THINGS LIKE THAT.
[00:49:18] THE LINCOLN SCHOLARSHIP IS SO
[00:49:21] FASCINATING AND SO ENDSLESS.
[00:49:25] YOU CAN'T GET ENOUGH OF IT, IT'S AMAZING.
[00:49:28] >> ONE MORE QUESTION? VERY QUICK. WE HAVE LESS THAN A MINUTE.
[00:49:31] >> WE HAVE A TIMER, BY THE WAY.
[00:49:33] THIS GENTLEMAN IS OUR TIMER.
[00:49:39] HE'S VERY GOOD AT IT.
[00:49:46] >> YOU'RE NOT GOING TO HAVE MUCH TIME TO ANSWER THIS. I WAS JUST
[00:49:50] WONDERING IF YOU COULD COMMENT ON HOW SHE HELPED ABRAHAM
[00:49:52] LINCOLN AT PRESIDENT.
[00:49:55] YOU SAID SHE WAS VERY HELPFUL.
[00:49:58] >> YEAH, THAT'S A VERY GOOD
[00:50:02] QUESTION. LET ME SAY THIS FIRST. SHE, AND I BELIEVE THIS WITH ALL MY HEART, AND I KNOW SOME
[00:50:05] SCHOLARS WHO WOULD NOT AGRE WITH ME.
[00:50:08] I DON'T THINK HE WOULD HAVE BEEN PRESIDENT WITHOUT HER.
[00:50:11] UM, SHE WAS AN ENGINE AND HE WAS NOT.
[00:50:14] HE WAS BRILLIANT AND I
[00:50:17] SAID THIS WHEN I STARTED. SHE
[00:50:20] WAS THE ENGINE. HE ALSO MARRIED INTO TWO INCREDIBLY PROMINENT
[00:50:24] FAMILIES, HERS AND HER SISTER-IN-LAW'S, AND HE WAS AN AWKWARD GUY.
[00:50:28] HE WOULD GO OUT WITH MISMATCHED
[00:50:34] SOCKS. HE DIDN'T HAVE ANY PRESENCE, AND SHE BROUGHT HIM INTO THIS VERY, UM, ELITE, UM, POLITICAL WORLD. AS FIRST LADY, UM, AND THE STUFF I'M ABOUT TO TELL YOU IS THE
[00:50:38] SAME STUFF SHE GOT CRITICIZED FOR.
[00:50:40] SHE MOVES INTO THE WHITE HOUSE
[00:50:42] AND IT'S A DISASTER.
[00:50:45] THERE'S PEELING PAINTS.
[00:50:48] THERE'S RATS EVERYWHERE. THE FURNITURE
[00:50:51] IS THREADBARE, AND SHE COMPLETELY REFURNISHES IT, AND SHE GOT HIGHLY CRITICIZED FOR SPENDING MONEY, AND I WILL SAY SHE DID NOT SPEND THAT MUCH
[00:50:55] MONEY. SHE HAD AN ALLOCATION OF ABOUT $20,000 WHICH IS ABOUT $400,000 MUCH LESS THAN ANYBODY. BEFORE HER AND ANYBODY AFTER HER, AND SHE WAS KILLED FOR THAT.
[00:50:59] SHE ALSO OPENED THE DOORS TO THE WHITE HOUSE TO PUBLIC RECEPTIONS TWICE A WEEK, AND SHE
[00:51:02] DID THAT AS SORT OF THUMBING HER
[00:51:05] NOSE AT THE SOUTH TO SAY WE HAVE
[00:51:08] NOT SHUTDOWN. WE ARE OPEN FOR BUSINESS.
[00:51:11] SHE GOT CRISISSED FOR THAT.
[00:51:13] SHE ALSO, AND THIS WAS A
[00:51:18] DOUBLE-EDGED SWORD.
[00:51:18] SHE HAD A VERY INTUITIVE
[00:51:22] SENSE ABOUT PEOPLE, AND SOME OF THE PEOPLE THAT LINCOLN PUT IN HIS CABINET, UM, WERE A LITTLE
[00:51:26] BIT TREACHEROUS, BUT HE SMARTLY PUT THEM IN HIS CABINET BECAUSE
[00:51:30] HE KNEW -- HE FELT HE HAD TO.
[00:51:34] BUT SHE KEPT HER EAR TO THE GROUND ON ALL OF THIS STUFF, AND ONE OF THEM WAS THE SECRETARY OF STATE,
[00:51:38] A GUY NAMED SEWARD, AND HE WAS JUST DOUBLE DEALING BEHIND
[00:51:42] LINCOLN'S BACK FROM THE SECOND HE GOT IN THE WHITE HOUSE, AND
[00:51:46] MARY KNEW IT, AND MARY READ ALL THE NEWSPAPERS AND SHE NAGGED AT
[00:51:49] LINCOLN AND SHE SAID HE'S GOING TO UNDERMINE YOU AND THE FIRST
[00:51:52] THING THAT HE DID WAS UNDERMINE HIM.
[00:51:55] HE SAID TO LINCOLN, WHY DON'T YOU LET ME DO ALL THIS
[00:51:59] STUFF AND YOU BE THE FIGUREHEAD?
[00:52:02] IT'S A VERY FAMOUS STORY AND
[00:52:05] LINCOLN SAID, NO, I'VE GOT THIS. UH, AND HERE'S ANOTHER THING, UM, SHE JUST, I'M JUST TRYING TO
[00:52:09] THINK, IT'S A GOOD QUESTION. SHE, UM, SHE WENT TO THE
[00:52:12] HOSPITALS ALMOST EVERY DAY DURING THE WAR, AND SHE WOULD
[00:52:15] NOT TAKE REPORTERS WITH HER, AND
[00:52:19] THE REPORTERS KNEW ABOUT IT, AND THEY COULD HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT IT, AND IT DIDN'T GET REPORTED
[00:52:23] TILL MANY YEARS LATER WHEN LETTERS WERE DISCOVERED WHERE
[00:52:26] SHE WOULD WRITE AND SAY, I'M SITTING AT YOUR SON'S BEDSIDE,
[00:52:29] AND HE WANTS ME TO LET YOU KNOW. I STILL GET CHOKED UP, HE'S OK
[00:52:33] AND HE'LL BE HOME SOON AND SHE
[00:52:35] WENT TO ALL THESE HOSPITALS AND
[00:52:38] DID 245, AND THEN SHE SENT
[00:52:42] FOOD TO THEM AND THEN THE LAST THING I'LL MENTION IS THAT UM
[00:52:44] SHE WAS A SUPPORTER OF THE FREED
[00:52:48] SLAVES. THERE WAS SOMETHING CALLED THE CONTRABAND SOCIETY, AND SHE WROTE LINCOLN THIS
[00:52:51] LETTER TO NEW YORK AND SHE SAID
[00:52:53] WE HAVE TO SEND THEM MONEY. THERE
[00:52:56] ARE ENCAMPMENTS AND THESE SLAVES, THEY'RE FREE, AND THEY HAVE NOWHERE TO GO, AND I WANT
[00:53:00] TO GIVE THEM $200 WHICH WAS
[00:53:02] PROBABLY A FEW THOUSAND DOLLARS IN THAT TIME.
[00:53:05] SO THERE WAS A LOT SHE WAS
[00:53:08] DOING THAT WAS NOT REPORTED IN REALTIME.
[00:53:11] >> IT'S A TERRIFIC BOOK.
[00:53:13] I JUST DON'T THINK IT.
[00:53:16] DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN THINKS IT.
[00:53:22] HAROLD HOLZER THINKS IT. EVERYBODY IN LINCOLN WORLD THINKS IT. SO PLEASE GO OVER AND PURCHASE THE
[00:53:26] BOOK AND HAVE LOIS SIGN IT, AND THANK YOU FOR JOINING US THIS
[00:53:30] AFTERNOON. >> THANK YOU ALL, GREAT
[00:53:33] QUESTIONS, THANK YOU. [CAPTIONS COPYRIGHT NATIONAL CABLE SATELLITE CORP. 2026] [CAPTIONING PERFORMED BY THE NATIONAL CAPTIONING INSTITUTE,
[00:53:37] WHICH IS RESPONSIBLE FOR ITS CAPTION CONTENT AND ACCURACY. VISIT NCICAP.ORG] >> YOU LOOK BACK ON WHAT YOU'VE ACHIEVED IN YOUR LIFE, WHAT
[00:53:40] MAKES YOU THE HAPPIEST SO FAR?
[00:53:42] >> LEADERS SEEM TO LIKE TO WEAR WIGS.
[00:53:46] PRESIDENT TRUMP SAID I MADE A
[00:53:48] MISTAKE THE FIRST TIME. I SHOULD HAVE GIVEN IT TO YOU
[00:53:52] THE FIRST TIME. YOUR FIRST BOOK WAS CALLED "A
[00:53:55] TIME TO KILL."
[00:53:57] VERY RARE TO SEE DONALD TRUMP LAUGH.
[00:54:00] >> HE DOESN'T LIKE TO SMILE.
[00:54:02] HE LIKES THE STARE.
[00:54:05] >> OH, THERE'S THE AUTHOR. >> ALL THE BEAUTIFUL PEOPLE ARE THIS WAY.
[00:54:09] >> YOU WROTE A BOOK ABOUT
[00:54:11] SOMEBODY WHO LIVED WITH WOLVES. >> I INTERVIEWED A GUY WHO LIVED
[00:54:15] WITH WOLVES, YEAH. >> IS THAT SAFE TO DO THAT?
[00:54:19] >> ABSOLUTELY NOT. >> I KNOW YOU ARE OPINIONATED
[00:54:22] ABOUT THIS SITUATION.
[00:54:24] WHICH IS WAY WE LOVE YOU, DAVID.
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