CSPAN3 — Alan Mikhail Newcomers
20260829 130300 UTC
1099 transcript segments
Original Broadcaster Captioning (Enhanced)
Data courtesy of The GDELT Project (https://www.gdeltproject.org/), from the Internet Archive TV News Archive.
Machine transcription. Treat it as a searchable index of what was broadcast, not a verbatim quotation record.

[00:00:00] ALL LIVE TOGETHER.
[00:00:03] IT'S AS MUCH A STORY ABOUT THE
[00:00:06] PEOPLE AND I DIDN'T KNOW HOW MUCH I NEEDED TO GET TO KNOW
[00:00:09] ERIC MENDOZA AND SPEND TIME WITH ALBY FUENTES.
[00:00:13] HOLLY BENDER, WHO'S HERE FROM NASA JET PROPULSION LABORATORY. WHERE ARE YOU? HOLLY? HI.
[00:00:19] STAND UP. HOLLY AND ALTADENA. HUNDREDS OF HER COLLEAGUES LOST
[00:00:23] THEIR HOMES FROM JPL AND CALTECH
[00:00:25] IN THE EATON FIRE. THEY'RE STUDYING THE FIRE OF THE FUTURE.
[00:00:28] I GOT TO SPEND TIME WITH THEM AFTER I KNEW AND I KNEW I NEEDED TO LEARN.
[00:00:32] AND SO THAT'S WHAT THIS WAS ALL ABOUT AND WHY I'LL BE.
[00:00:35] HE WAS THE FIRST PERSON THAT I CALLED TO COME BACK TO THE
[00:00:40] PALISADES TO MEET ME. I WAS THEN I TEXTED MY SIBLINGS AND MY SISTER MOLLY WROTE ME BACK.
[00:00:43] I SAID, DOES ANYBODY HAVE ALL THESE NUMBER?
[00:00:48] AND AND RIGHT AWAY MOLLY WROTE ME BACK AND I CALLED OUT AND
[00:00:51] SAID, YOU GOT TO COME AND I THINK I'D BEEN THERE FOR DAYS.
[00:00:54] BUT WHEN WE HUGGED IN FRONT OF
[00:00:57] KATHY VITA HOME IN I, I REALLY
[00:01:01] NEEDED THAT.
[00:01:03] AND IT JUST IT REMINDED ME WHAT
[00:01:05] WE WERE DOING THERE AND WHAT THIS PLACE REPRESENTED AND WHY.
[00:01:09] WHY I NEEDED TO UNDERSTAND WHAT WE WERE ALL EXPERIENCING TOGETHER.
[00:01:13] YOU CAN WATCH THE REST OF THIS PROGRAM AND ALL OF OUR BOOK
[00:01:16] PROGRAMS ANY TIME ONLINE AT BOOK
[00:01:18] TV DOT ORG.
[00:01:21] BOOK TV CONTINUES NOW TELEVISION
[00:01:24] FOR SERIOUS READERS.
[00:01:27] AND NOW TO OUR SPEAKERS.
[00:01:30] WE'RE THRILLED TO WELCOME ALAN MCHALE TO THE NEW YORK HISTORICAL STAGE.
[00:01:34] DR. MCHALE IS THE CHASE FAMILY PROFESSOR OF HISTORY AT YALE
[00:01:37] UNIVERSITY AND THE AUTHOR OF NUMEROUS AWARD WINNING BOOKS.
[00:01:40] HIS MOST RECENT NEWCOMERS AS THE SUBJECT OF TONIGHT'S PROGRAM.
[00:01:44] WE ARE ALSO THRILLED TO WELCOME THE NEW YORK HISTORICAL OWEN
[00:01:48] RUSSELL SHORT OH TO THE STAGE TONIGHT. MR. SHORTER IS THE DIRECTOR OF
[00:01:51] THE NEW AMSTERDAM PROJECT PROJECT AT NEW YORK HISTORICAL
[00:01:54] AND THE AUTHOR, MOST RECENTLY OF TAKING MANHATTAN.
[00:01:58] MANHATTAN AND CO-CURATOR OF THE OLD MASTERS NEW AMSTERDAM
[00:02:02] EXHIBITION. BEFORE WE BEGIN, I ASKED THAT YOU PLEASE SILENCE YOUR
[00:02:05] ELECTRONIC DEVICES. AND NOW, WITHOUT FURTHER ADO,
[00:02:09] RUSSELL AND ALAN.
[00:02:15] THANK YOU VERY MUCH. MEGAN WELCOME, EVERYONE.
[00:02:18] WELCOME TO THE NEW YORK HISTORICAL. THANKS FOR COMING OUT ON A
[00:02:21] SULTRY AND I GUESS SUDDENLY STORMY EVENING.
[00:02:24] I SINCE I GOT HERE, I GUESS CAME INSIDE.
[00:02:26] THE WEATHER HAS CHANGED AND I
[00:02:28] WANT TO WELCOME ALAN FOR BEING
[00:02:32] HERE. THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE TO TALK ABOUT THIS BRAND NEW BOOK THAT'S
[00:02:36] BECAUSE I'VE HAD IT FOR A WHILE, BUT IT'S ACTUALLY JUST OUT LAST
[00:02:40] WEEK. LAST WEEK. SO HOT OFF THE PRESSES.
[00:02:42] THIS IS A SUBJECT THAT IS VERY
[00:02:45] INTERESTING TO ME.
[00:02:47] I'VE WRITTEN ABOUT NEW NETHERLAND AND I AND FOR A LONG
[00:02:51] TIME AND PEOPLE WHO ARE NEW NETHERLAND SCHOLARS, EVERYBODY
[00:02:55] KNOWS ANTHONY AND CRETE OR FEATURE TO GIVE THE DUTCH
[00:03:00] PRONUNCIATION NEWCOMERS THE STORY OF ANTHONY AND CREATURE AND THE FOUNDING OF NEW YORK.
[00:03:04] I WONDER IF OTHER NEW NETHERLAND
[00:03:07] SCHOLARS HAVE NOT HAD THE
[00:03:11] THOUGHT I DID. WHY DIDN'T I THINK TO WRITE A BOOK ABOUT THEM?
[00:03:13] BECAUSE THEY ARE SO, SO MEATY,
[00:03:17] SO RIPE. HOW DID IT HOW DID IT COME ABOUT?
[00:03:22] YEAH, YOU KNOW, LIKE YOU, I WAS
[00:03:25] ALSO JUST TAKEN WITH THE STORY OF THESE TWO PEOPLE WHO ARE
[00:03:28] ALWAYS DESCRIBED, SOMETIMES IN ALMOST CARTOONISH TERMS, AS
[00:03:32] BEING JUST OUT OF BOUNDS IN ALL
[00:03:34] KINDS OF WAYS.
[00:03:37] THEY, AS YOU KNOW, APPEAR IN THE
[00:03:41] RECORDS OF NEW NETHERLAND ALMOST
[00:03:44] AS MUCH, IF NOT MORE, THAN OTHER PEOPLE WHO LIVE THERE.
[00:03:48] THEY ARE EVENTUALLY THROWN OUT OF THE COLONY.
[00:03:52] HE'S CALLED A MUSLIM. SHE'S CALLED A --.
[00:03:54] SO THEY ARE THESE VERY COLORFUL
[00:03:58] CHARACTERS.
[00:04:01] I WAS INITIALLY INTRIGUED AND BROUGHT INTO THIS STORY THROUGH
[00:04:05] THAT, THAT THAT KIND OF IMAGE OF THEM. BUT I WANTED TO OBVIOUSLY WRITE
[00:04:08] A SERIOUS STORY AND TO EVALUATE ALL THE SOURCE MATERIAL THAT WE
[00:04:12] HAD ABOUT THEM. AND TO FIGURE OUT EXACTLY WHO
[00:04:14] THESE PEOPLE WERE, MAYBE BEYOND OR AGAINST THEM.
[00:04:18] MYTHOLOGY. HMM. LET'S BACK UP AND TALK TALK
[00:04:22] ABOUT THE SET, THE SCENE, THE LANDSCAPE.
[00:04:24] THE COLONY OF NEW NETHERLAND,
[00:04:26] BASICALLY 16, 24 TO 1664, WHEN
[00:04:30] THE ENGLISH TAKE OVER AND IT
[00:04:32] BECOMES NEW YORK, THE CAPITAL OF NEW AMSTERDAM, AT THE SOUTHERN
[00:04:34] TIP OF MANHATTAN ISLAND TODAY,
[00:04:36] THE FINANCIAL DISTRICT IN THE
[00:04:40] EARLY DAYS, IT'S A ROUGH AND ROWDY PLACE.
[00:04:44] AND AS YOU SAY, THE NEW NETHERLAND RECORDS IN THOSE
[00:04:46] EARLY DAYS REFLECT THAT WHEN DID
[00:04:52] THAT WHEN DO THEY APPEAR? AND WHAT'S THE WHAT'S THE HOW DO THEY PRESENT THEMSELVES
[00:04:56] INITIALLY IN THE RECORDS? RIGHT. SO THERE'S A WHOLE STORY ABOUT
[00:05:00] THEM BEFORE THEY ARRIVE. WE'LL GET THERE, WHICH MAYBE
[00:05:03] WE'LL GET INTO ACTUALLY, LET'S DO IT THIS WAY.
[00:05:06] CAN YOU GIVE US AN OVERVIEW OF THE MYTH OR RATHER THE TWIN MEN?
[00:05:10] SURE. AND THEN I'LL ASK YOU TO KIND OF UNPACK THE MYTH. SURE.
[00:05:14] SO TO TAKE EACH OF THEM IN TURN,
[00:05:16] ANTHONY, IT IS SAID, WAS THE SON
[00:05:21] OF A DUTCH CONVERT TO ISLAM WHO SETTLED IN MOROCCO.
[00:05:25] SO IN THE FIRST HALF OF THE 17TH
[00:05:27] CENTURY OR SAILORS, PIRATES AND
[00:05:32] ALL KINDS OF TRADERS ARE MOVING BETWEEN THE MEDITERRANEAN AND
[00:05:35] THE EASTERN ATLANTIC, THERE ARE PIRATES IN EUROPE, THERE ARE
[00:05:39] PIRATES IN NORTH AFRICA. THERE ARE MERCHANTS IN EUROPE. THERE ARE MERCHANTS IN NORTH AFRICA.
[00:05:43] AND SHIPS ARE OFTEN CAPTURED.
[00:05:45] SO MANY EUROPEANS WERE CAPTURED AND HELD IN CAPTIVITY IN NORTH
[00:05:51] AFRICA, USUALLY FOR RANSOMS. ONE OF THE WAYS THAT THEY COULD
[00:05:55] GO FREE BEYOND PAYING FOR THEIR
[00:05:57] FREEDOM WAS TO CONVERT TO ISLAM
[00:05:59] AND TO AGREE TO WORK FOR THE LOCAL POTENTATE WHEREVER THEY WERE.
[00:06:03] SO MANY DUTCH PEOPLE DID THIS IN
[00:06:06] THE FIRST HALF OF THE 17TH CENTURY AND MANY SETTLED IN THIS
[00:06:10] TOWN OF SALEH, WHICH IS TODAY NEAR THE MOROCCAN CITY OF
[00:06:14] ROBERT. AND SO ONE OF THESE FIGURES WAS
[00:06:16] A MAN NAMED JOHN JOHNSON, VERY
[00:06:20] DUTCH NAME, WHO CONVERTED TO
[00:06:22] GAIN HIS FREEDOM AFTER BEING
[00:06:25] CAPTURED AND CHANGED HIS NAME TO MUATH RAIS.
[00:06:29] SO IN THE SOURCES OF NETHERLAND,
[00:06:31] THERE IS THIS CHARACTER, ANTHONY
[00:06:34] THE TURK, ANTHONY JOHNSON VON SALEH.
[00:06:37] SO ANTHONY JOHNSON FROM SALEH, FROM THE CITY IN MOROCCO.
[00:06:42] SO IN THE 19TH CENTURY, A HISTORIAN SORT OF OFFERED A
[00:06:46] HYPOTHESIS THAT PERHAPS THIS CHARACTER, A NEW NEVIN, WAS THE
[00:06:50] SON OF THIS GUY, JOHN JOHNSON,
[00:06:52] WHO WAS IN SALEH. AND THAT MIGHT EXPLAIN WHY HE
[00:06:56] HAS THIS WEIRD KIND OF OUTSIZED,
[00:07:00] COLORFUL ROLE IN THE COLONY. SO THAT'S THE KIND OF MYTH OF
[00:07:03] ANTHONY'S ORIGINS.
[00:07:07] GRAECIA IT. AND LET ME JUST ASK YOU, IN THE
[00:07:11] 17TH CENTURY RECORDS, HE'S FUN TO PLAY.
[00:07:13] HE IS SO THERE'S ARE YOU GOING
[00:07:17] TO GET YOU'RE GOING TO UNPACK THAT. BUT WE'RE GOING TO UNPACK. OKAY. YEAH. NO DEGREE.
[00:07:22] YEAH, YEAH, YEAH.
[00:07:23] SO CRITO IS IS USUALLY HE
[00:07:28] DISPARAGED IN THE RECORDS OF NEW
[00:07:30] NETHERLAND AS A --, AS SOMEONE
[00:07:34] WHO MAYBE KILLED CHILDREN, AS
[00:07:38] SOMEONE WHO GOT IN FIGHTS, OFTEN WITH HER NEIGHBORS, INCLUDING
[00:07:41] THE DUTCH, REFORMED MINISTER'S WIFE.
[00:07:43] THERE'S A VERY FAMOUS INCIDENT IN WHICH HE MOONS A GROUP OF
[00:07:47] SAILORS WHO ARE LEAVING. WHAT BECOMES NEW YORK HARBOR.
[00:07:52] SO SHE'S USUALLY THOUGHT OF AS AS YOU KNOW, A WOMAN OF ILL
[00:07:56] REPUTE AT THE BOUNDS OF KIND OF THE MORAL COMMUNITY OF THE COURT.
[00:08:00] AND THERE'S ANOTHER FAMOUS INCIDENT IN WHICH SHE SUPPOSEDLY
[00:08:03] MEASURES HER CUSTOMERS ON A BROOMSTICK. YES.
[00:08:06] AND SHE'S NOT MEASURING THEIR HEIGHT. YES. YES. OKAY.
[00:08:10] OKAY. SO THIS IS REALLY RICH STUFF. TOTALLY.
[00:08:14] AND AND IF YOU'RE LOOKING AT SO THE DUTCH, THE RECORDS OF NEW
[00:08:18] NETHERLAND, I THINK CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG, THESE REFERENCES
[00:08:22] ARE MOSTLY TO THE NEW NETHERLAND
[00:08:26] DOCUMENTS THAT WERE TRANSLATED
[00:08:28] IN THE EARLY 20TH CENTURY BY YES, AJ FUNNELS, FOR EXAMPLE, SO
[00:08:32] MUCH THE CHARLES GOERING LETTER BECAUSE THEY APPEAR EARLY IN THE
[00:08:36] STORY, THEY APPEAR VERY EARLY IN THE RECORDS THAT WE HAVE FROM
[00:08:40] EUROPE. AND SO BEGINNING IN THE 1630S, IT'S SOMETHING LIKE THE SEVENTH
[00:08:44] CASE IN THE ENTIRE RECORD OF THE COLONY IS ABOUT ANTHONY AND RACHEL.
[00:08:49] YEAH, SO WE DID A LITTLE OF THE MYTHOLOGY TO SAY A LITTLE BIT
[00:08:53] MORE ABOUT HOW WE MIGHT COMPLICATE THOSE KIND OF VERY
[00:08:56] INTERESTING STORIES IN THE STORY
[00:08:59] OF ANTHONY AS MUSLIM IS AGAINST
[00:09:03] THE FACT THAT HE MARRIES TWICE IN THE DUTCH REFORMED CHURCH,
[00:09:06] OSTENSIBLY CHRISTIAN MARRIAGES
[00:09:10] BAPTIZED AS A DAUGHTER IN THE
[00:09:12] CHURCH, ASKS FOR A MINISTER TO
[00:09:14] BE ASSIGNED TO HIS COMMUNITY IN NEW NETHERLAND.
[00:09:18] THERE'S NOTHING IN THE RECORDS
[00:09:21] THAT WOULD INDICATE ANY ACTION STATEMENT ON HIS PART THAT WOULD
[00:09:25] THAT WOULD SEEM TO BE ANYTHING WE MIGHT THINK OF AS MUSLIM.
[00:09:29] EVERYTHING THAT HE DID IN THE COLONY. THAT SUGGESTS A RELIGION,
[00:09:31] SUGGESTS CHRISTIANITY MIGHT EVEN
[00:09:34] SAY DOES REFORM CHRISTIANITY IN
[00:09:38] HIS MARRIAGE CERTIFICATE TO RITA IN AMSTERDAM, THEY MARRY IN
[00:09:43] AMSTERDAM IN 1629. HE DOES NOT SAY HE'S FROM MOROCCO.
[00:09:46] IN FACT, HE SAYS HE'S FROM CARTAGENA, A CITY IN SPAIN.
[00:09:50] SO ON THE ONE HAND, WE HAVE THIS
[00:09:52] STORY OF THIS MUSLIM GUY AND THE
[00:09:54] RECORDS SAY THAT HE'S A MUSLIM
[00:09:56] AND WE HAVE ALL THIS EVIDENCE THAT SEEMS TO SUGGEST HE'S CHRISTIAN.
[00:10:00] SO WHAT DOES THAT CONUNDRUM ABOUT AND HOW TO FIGURE THAT OUT?
[00:10:03] I SPENT A BOOK TRYING TO DO THAT
[00:10:06] AND WE CAN GET INTO SOME OF THE SOME OF THE REASONS WHY I THINK
[00:10:09] WE CAN WE CAN THINK HOW THAT MAKES SENSE.
[00:10:13] RITA, FOR HER PART, IS A PERSON
[00:10:16] WHO HAD A VERY HARROWING EXPERIENCE.
[00:10:20] SHE WAS A SHE WAS BORN IN VESSEL
[00:10:22] IN WHAT IS TODAY WEST GERMANY.
[00:10:24] AND LIKE MANY YOUNG WOMEN OF
[00:10:27] THAT ERA, SAILED DOWN THE RIVER TO AMSTERDAM.
[00:10:29] AMSTERDAM IS BOOMING IN THE FIRST HALF OF THE 17TH CENTURY,
[00:10:32] ITS POPULATION TRIPLES IN SIZE
[00:10:36] AND MANY YOUNG WOMEN COME TO THE CITY FOR WORK. SHE IS ONE OF THEM.
[00:10:40] SHE FINDS WORK IN A HOUSEHOLD AS A MAID SERVANTS, WHICH WAS A
[00:10:43] VERY COMMON STORY FOR WOMEN IN THIS PERIOD.
[00:10:46] IMMIGRANT WOMEN ESPECIALLY, AND
[00:10:50] ALL THE EVIDENCE SUGGESTS THAT THE HEAD OF THAT HOUSEHOLD HAD
[00:10:53] SEXUALLY ASSAULTED HER.
[00:10:56] SHE BECOMES THESE ARE THINGS THAT YOU UNCOVERED, IS THAT.
[00:11:00] YEAH. THAT THE MAJOR KIND OF ARCHIVAL
[00:11:03] FINDS THAT THAT THAT I UNCOVERED ARE REALLY ABOUT HER MUM AND HER
[00:11:08] LIFE BEFORE SHE MARRIES. AND WHERE DID YOU FIND THESE.
[00:11:11] THESE ARE IN THE NETHERLANDS, IN
[00:11:13] THE CITY ARCHIVE OF AMSTERDAM.
[00:11:17] IN THE NOTARIAL RECORDS.
[00:11:20] SO THE CHILD DIES OR WAS MURDERED?
[00:11:23] WE DON'T KNOW. SHE NO LONGER WORKS IN THAT
[00:11:27] HOUSEHOLD FOR PERHAPS OBVIOUS REASONS, AND FINDS HERSELF
[00:11:31] LIVING ON THE DOCKYARDS IN AMSTERDAM, WHICH IS AGAIN, NOT
[00:11:34] AN UNCOMMON STORY. WORKING IN A BAR, SOMETIMES A
[00:11:39] BROTHEL, SOMETIMES THOSE TWO INSTITUTIONS WERE ONE IN THE
[00:11:43] SAME. THAT PLAYED A VERY IMPORTANT FUNCTION IN STAFFING.
[00:11:47] THE THE COMPANIES THAT WERE
[00:11:50] WORKING IN AND OUT OF THE DOCKS. ESSENTIALLY THE STORY IS THAT MEN WOULD RUN UP HUGE DEBTS IN
[00:11:54] THESE TAVERNS FOR ALCOHOL.
[00:11:57] SOMETIMES SEX, AND THAT THE WEST
[00:11:59] INDIA COMPANY, THE EAST INDIA
[00:12:01] COMPANY, WHICH ARE SOME OF THE LARGEST CORPORATIONS IN THE
[00:12:05] WORLD IN THIS PERIOD, NEEDED MEN
[00:12:08] TO STAFF THEIR SHIPPING, THEIR SHIPPING NETWORKS.
[00:12:10] AND SO THEY WOULD AGREE TO PAY THE DEBTS OF THESE MEN IN
[00:12:14] EXCHANGE FOR THEM BECOMING LABORERS FOR THEM.
[00:12:17] SO WOMEN IN THESE INSTITUTIONS OF THE BARS AND BROTHELS SERVED
[00:12:20] AS INTERMEDIARIES, ESSENTIALLY
[00:12:22] PRODUCING LABOR FOR FOR THESE COMPANIES.
[00:12:25] SO SHE MAY HAVE PLAYED THAT ROLE. AND WE DON'T KNOW FOR CERTAIN,
[00:12:30] BUT CIRCUMSTANTIAL EVIDENCE SUGGESTS THAT THEY PROBABLY MET
[00:12:32] ON THE DOCKYARDS IN ONE OF THESE INSTITUTIONS IN THE LATE 1620S,
[00:12:36] AND THAT'S HOW THEY THEY EVENTUALLY MARRIED AND THEY MARRIED THERE.
[00:12:40] THEY MARRIED IN AMSTERDAM IN 1629. I SHOULD QUALIFY THAT A LITTLE
[00:12:44] BIT BY SAYING THEIR MARRIAGE CERTIFICATE ACTUALLY HAS A
[00:12:47] MARGINAL NOTE THAT SAYS THEY ARE GIVEN PERMISSION TO MARRY ON THE
[00:12:50] SHIP, WHICH WAS NOT AN UNCOMMON
[00:12:54] THING IN THIS PERIOD. SO THEY MAY HAVE ACTUALLY
[00:12:56] COMPLETED THE MARRIAGE IN IN IN
[00:12:58] AFTER MARRIAGES TOOK THREE WEEKS
[00:13:01] OR THEY MIGHT HAVE SET SAIL
[00:13:03] BEFORE BEFORE FINALIZING THE MARRIAGE.
[00:13:06] WE DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHEN THEY ARRIVED IN NEW NETHERLAND.
[00:13:10] I GO THROUGH THE POSSIBILITIES IN THE BOOK, BUT IT WAS SOMETIME
[00:13:13] IN THE FIRST HALF OF THE 1630S.
[00:13:14] OKAY, BACK TO ANTHONY, YOUR FIRST CHAPTER ON HIM.
[00:13:18] YOU CALLED MAUDE AND MAUDE.
[00:13:19] YEAH, WHICH IS NICE TO FIRST OF
[00:13:23] ALL, JUST SAY SOMETHING ABOUT THE TERM MORE.
[00:13:25] YEAH, I MEAN, MORE IS IS ONE OF
[00:13:28] THESE EARLY MODERN TERMS.
[00:13:31] EXCUSE THE ACADEMIC IN ME THAT
[00:13:33] HAS A VERY COMPLICATED MEANING.
[00:13:35] IT WAS USED TO REFER TO MUSLIMS.
[00:13:39] IT WAS USED TO REFER TO BLACKS.
[00:13:43] IT WAS USED TO REFER TO AFRICANS.
[00:13:45] IT WAS USED TO REFER TO ENSLAVED PEOPLE.
[00:13:49] THERE ARE EVEN INSTANCES IN WHICH -- IN SPAIN ARE REFERRED
[00:13:52] TO AS BEING MOORS.
[00:13:54] SO I THINK THE GENERAL IDEA THAT
[00:13:56] WE SHOULD HAVE IN OUR MIND IS FROM A EUROPEAN PERSPECTIVE, A
[00:14:00] PERSON WHO IS AN OUTSIDER OR
[00:14:04] RACIALIZED IN A CERTAIN KIND OF WAY, A NONWHITE PERSON AND A
[00:14:08] PERSON WHO IS THOUGHT TO BE OPPOSITIONAL OR OTHERED IN A CERTAIN KIND OF WAY.
[00:14:12] OKAY, SO HIS CAN YOU CAN YOU
[00:14:19] SKETCH OUT HOW HIS HE ARRIVES IN
[00:14:22] NEW AMSTERDAM AND HOW WHAT WOULD
[00:14:26] CAUSE THEM TO BEGIN TO PERCEIVE HIM AS OTHER ZAMORA'S RIGHT.
[00:14:31] SOMEONE WHO'S NOT PART OF THEIR COMMUNITY. RIGHT. SO ALL THE THINGS I JUST
[00:14:33] DESCRIBED, WE COULD WE COULD ASCRIBE TO ANTHONY, RIGHT?
[00:14:36] HE IS RACIALIZE AS BEING NONWHITE IN THE COLONY.
[00:14:40] HE'S DEFINITELY THOUGHT TO BE AN OUTSIDER, BOTH HE AND A
[00:14:43] CREATURE. AND THERE IS SOME PROBABLE
[00:14:47] CONNECTION THAT HE HAD TO NORTH AFRICA.
[00:14:50] SO AS I SAID WHEN I WAS TALKING
[00:14:54] ABOUT THIS KIND OF ECONOMY OF CAPTIVES, IT'S QUITE POSSIBLE
[00:14:57] THAT HE WAS BORN IN CARTAGENA, FOR EXAMPLE, WAS CAPTURED BY
[00:15:01] NORTH AFRICAN PIRATES, SPENT SOME TIME IN NORTH AFRICA IN
[00:15:03] WHAT IS TODAY, MOROCCO. SO THERE'S SOME EVIDENCE TO
[00:15:07] SUGGEST THAT THAT IS THE PATH THAT BROUGHT HIM TO AMSTERDAM
[00:15:11] EVENTUALLY. SO I THINK THERE WAS SOME REAL
[00:15:13] WORLD CONNECTION HE MAY HAVE HAD
[00:15:15] TO TO MOROCCO, BUT IT'S NOT THE ONE THAT WE USE.
[00:15:18] THERE'S NOTHING IN THE RECORDS TO SUGGEST WHY HE'S REFERRED TO AS FUN.
[00:15:22] SALEH THAT THAT'S RIGHT.
[00:15:24] THERE IS NO SOURCE CLAIMING THAT
[00:15:28] HE WAS BORN IN SALAH OR THAT HE
[00:15:32] SPENT TIME THERE. THIS IS THE NAME THAT HE HAS GIVEN IN THE RECORDS.
[00:15:35] AND WE SHOULD SAY AND AS YOU KNOW, RUSSELL ENSLAVED PEOPLE IN
[00:15:39] NEW NETHERLAND, OF WHICH THERE
[00:15:41] WERE MANY, OFTEN HAVE NAMES LIKE
[00:15:43] VAN ANGOLA OR VAN CONGO AND THAT
[00:15:47] DOESN'T NECESSARILY MEAN THAT THEY ARE BORN OR ARE FROM THOSE
[00:15:51] PLACES, BUT IT MEANS EITHER THAT
[00:15:53] THEY HAVE AN IMAGINED CONNECTION
[00:15:55] TO THOSE PLACES OR THAT THEY, IN
[00:15:57] THE CASE OF ENSLAVED PEOPLE, WERE CAPTURED IN THOSE PLACES OR
[00:16:00] PUT ON A SHIP IN THOSE PLACES,
[00:16:03] SOMEHOW HAVE IN THEIR BIOGRAPHY
[00:16:06] A CONNECTION TO THIS PLACE? YEAH.
[00:16:08] AND SO YOU'RE SAYING THE SAME MUST MAY HAVE BEEN THE CASE FOR HIM.
[00:16:12] YES. YEAH. YEAH. OKAY.
[00:16:14] AND PHYSICALLY HE MANIFESTS AS
[00:16:18] SOMEONE DIFFERENT AS, AS AN OUTSIDER. AND THIS MATTERS SOMEHOW.
[00:16:22] I GUESS WHAT I'M STARTING MOVING
[00:16:23] TOWARD NOW IS.
[00:16:28] THE EUROPEAN. I'D LIKE TO YOU TO TALK A LITTLE
[00:16:31] BIT ABOUT THE EUROPEAN APPROACH
[00:16:35] TO ISLAM, TO THE MUSLIM WORLD,
[00:16:38] OR FOR THAT MATTER, TO PEOPLE OF DIFFERENT SKIN COLOR. RIGHT.
[00:16:42] SO, YOU KNOW, IF IF WE HAVE AT THE CENTER OF THE STORY, THIS
[00:16:45] THIS CONUNDRUM, AGAIN, OF A PERSON WHO IS CALLED DESCRIBED
[00:16:49] AS BEING A TURK OR BEING MUSLIM AND YET SEEMS TO TO ALWAYS
[00:16:53] PROJECT CHRISTIANITY WHEN HE IS
[00:16:58] ACTING OF HIS OWN VOLITION, I THINK IT TELLS US MORE ABOUT THOSE WHO ARE CLAIMING THAT HE
[00:17:02] IS A TURK THAN IT DOES ABOUT HIMSELF. AND SO THAT'S WHERE WE GET TO THEN.
[00:17:06] WHAT FORM THAT IMAGE IN THE
[00:17:08] MINDS OF THESE EUROPEANS? RIGHT. NOT EVERYBODY IN NEW NETHERLAND
[00:17:11] WAS DUTCH, RIGHT? BUT MOST OF THEM WERE EUROPEANS.
[00:17:14] AND WE HAVE A SET OF ENSLAVED PEOPLE, WE SHOULD SAY, AS WELL,
[00:17:18] THAT THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE AROUND THE COLONY AND
[00:17:22] INTERACT WITH THE COLONY WERE NATIVE PEOPLES, THOUGH NOT THE
[00:17:25] CANARSIE HACKENSACK. THOSE WHO LIVED AROUND WHAT IS
[00:17:29] TODAY NEW YORK HARBOR, BUT IN
[00:17:31] THE MINDS OF EUROPEANS, OF
[00:17:35] CHRISTENDOM, ISLAM WAS WAS THE GREAT OTHER OF THE MEDITERRANEAN
[00:17:38] RIGHT? THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE, THIS GARGANTUAN GEOGRAPHICAL STATE
[00:17:42] THAT WAS TAKING TERROR ARTERY IN
[00:17:44] EASTERN EUROPE, TAKING TERRITORY
[00:17:47] FROM SPAIN AND PORTUGAL IN NORTH AFRICA, THEIR COLONIES IN NORTH
[00:17:51] AFRICA THAT WAS STEALING THEIR YOUNG BOYS AND HOLDING THEM IN
[00:17:56] CAPTIVITY IN NORTH AFRICA.
[00:17:58] ISLAM WAS THIS THIS THREAT.
[00:18:02] FOR EUROPEANS IN THE EARLY MODERN PERIOD.
[00:18:05] ISLAM IS ALSO DESCRIBED AS SIN
[00:18:08] FOR EUROPEANS, RIGHT.
[00:18:10] SO SO WHY IS IT THAT CHRISTENDOM
[00:18:15] IS LOSING TERRITORY TO THE OTTOMANS? LET'S SAY IT'S BECAUSE
[00:18:18] CHRISTIANS ARE NOT ACTING AS A PIOUS CHRISTIAN.
[00:18:22] SHOULD THAT THERE IS SIN IN THE
[00:18:24] HEARTS OF OF CHRISTIANS AND THE
[00:18:27] ONLY WAY TO DEFEAT THE ENEMY ON
[00:18:29] THE BATTLEFIELD IS TO RELIEVE
[00:18:32] THEMSELVES OF THE ENEMY FROM WITHIN.
[00:18:34] SO THIS IS SOMETHING THAT CHRISTIAN WRITERS THROUGHOUT THE
[00:18:38] 16TH AND THE 17TH CENTURIES TALK
[00:18:40] ABOUT THAT ISLAM IS IS A FORM OF SIN THAT CHRISTENDOM NEEDS TO
[00:18:45] EXPUNGE FIRST FROM ITS HEART AND THEN FROM THE EARTH.
[00:18:50] SO WE SEE THIS IN ALL KINDS OF
[00:18:53] LITERATURE FROM THE EARLY MODERN PERIOD.
[00:18:57] AND THIS IS A VERY, VERY SALIENT
[00:18:57] AND IMPORTANT IDEA FOR EUROPEANS.
[00:19:01] SO WHEN FACED WITH A PERSON WHO
[00:19:03] SEEMINGLY HAD SOME CONNECTION TO THIS PART OF THE WORLD, SEEMED
[00:19:07] TO LOOK LIKE OTHER OTHER OTHER
[00:19:10] MUSLIMS, AS AS PEOPLE IMAGINED
[00:19:12] IT, IT WAS VERY EASY TO FALL
[00:19:14] INTO THAT KIND OF MINDSET,
[00:19:17] SOMETHING THAT HAD BEEN FORGED
[00:19:18] IN EUROPE FOR CENTURIES.
[00:19:21] CAN I ASK IF YOU CAN COMPARE OR
[00:19:23] CONTRAST THE EUROPEAN, THE
[00:19:25] DUTCH, THE EUROPEAN NOTION OF
[00:19:28] ISLAM, OF MUSLIMS WITH THAT OF --?
[00:19:30] YEAH, FOR SURE.
[00:19:32] SO -- AND MUSLIMS ARE BOTH
[00:19:37] RACIALIZED FOR THE DUTCH AND FOR OTHER EUROPEANS, RIGHT?
[00:19:40] SPAIN EXPELS ITS -- AND THEN IT
[00:19:42] EXPELS ITS MUSLIMS. --.
[00:19:45] UNLIKE MUSLIMS, DID NOT HAVE A POLITICAL STATE AROUND THE
[00:19:49] MEDITERRANEAN. THERE WAS NO JEWISH EQUIVALENT
[00:19:51] OF THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE.
[00:19:53] SO UNLIKE --, MUSLIMS
[00:19:56] REPRESENTED A POLITICAL THREAT IN A VERY SALIENT WAY OVER
[00:20:00] TERRITORY, GEOGRAPHY IN A WAY
[00:20:03] THAT THAT -- DID NOT.
[00:20:05] SO ANTISEMITISM TAKES ON A VERY
[00:20:07] DIFFERENT FLAVOR THAN DOES
[00:20:09] ANTI-MUSLIM SENTIMENT IN IN
[00:20:12] EUROPE AND THE STORY OF THE
[00:20:14] SEPHARDIM IN THE NETHERLANDS IS A VERY IMPORTANT ONE.
[00:20:18] AS YOU KNOW, IN THIS PERIOD, WE KNOW LESS ABOUT THE MARISCO.
[00:20:22] SO THE MARISCO ARE IBERIAN
[00:20:27] MUSLIMS WHO CONVERTED TO
[00:20:29] CATHOLICISM OSTENSIBLY AND WERE
[00:20:32] EVENTUALLY EXPELLED FROM SPAIN
[00:20:34] ABOUT A CENTURY AFTER THE -- WERE EXPELLED.
[00:20:37] AND MANY OF THEM DO END UP IN THE NETHERLANDS. AND THERE'S A WHOLE INTERESTING
[00:20:41] STORY THERE ABOUT ABOUT THE
[00:20:45] IMPORTATION OF ARABIC MANUSCRIPTS TO A PLACE LIKE LEYDEN.
[00:20:48] SO LEYDEN BECOMES ONE OF THE EARLIEST CENTERS IN EUROPE FOR
[00:20:51] THE STUDY OF ISLAM AND THE
[00:20:54] MARIST GOES BRING TEXTS AND
[00:20:56] BOOKS AND OTHER THINGS WITH THEM
[00:20:58] TO TO LEYDEN OTHER CITIES. OKAY.
[00:21:01] SO FROM THAT, LET ME ASK YOU A
[00:21:04] LITTLE TO SAY SOMETHING FROM
[00:21:06] YOUR PERSPECTIVE ABOUT DUTCH TOLERANCE, INTOLERANCE, THE
[00:21:09] LIMITS OF DUTCH TOLERANCE.
[00:21:12] THERE IS THIS NOTION GOING BACK TO THE PREVIOUS CENTURY, THIS
[00:21:16] THIS IT'S SORT OF ENSHRINED IN
[00:21:18] THEIR DE FACTO CONSTITUTIONS OR ON THE OTHER.
[00:21:21] AND YOU'VE GOT THE -- GOING THERE.
[00:21:25] AND I GUESS TO SOME EXTENT MUSLIMS GOING TO PLACES LIKE
[00:21:29] AMSTERDAM BECAUSE IT THEY ARE IF
[00:21:31] WELCOMED AS TOO STRONG A WORD,
[00:21:33] THEY ARE TOLERATED, AT LEAST SO.
[00:21:37] SO WITH REGARD TO COMING BACK TO
[00:21:41] ANTHONY. YEAH. AND HOW HE APPEARED AND THEN
[00:21:44] SAL, A NOTION HOW YOU KNOW WHAT
[00:21:49] MIGHT BE IN THE MINDS OF OTHER EUROPEANS, OF THE DUTCH, WHEN
[00:21:54] THERE APPROACHING HIM. YEAH. SO THE STORY OF ANTHONY A
[00:21:57] CREATURE IN NEW NETHERLAND SO EVERYTHING YOU SAID ABOUT SORT
[00:22:00] OF TOLERATION AND TOLERANCE IN
[00:22:02] AMSTERDAM, PEOPLE SAY ABOUT NEW NETHERLAND AS WELL.
[00:22:05] AND I THINK THE COUPLE ARE VERY INTERESTING IN THIS REGARD.
[00:22:09] RIGHT. ON THE ONE HAND, WE COULD SAY THAT THEY BOLSTER THAT STORY OF
[00:22:13] OF OF TOLERANCE AND SOME PEOPLE
[00:22:15] HAVE NARRATED THEM IN THAT WAY, RIGHT? THAT NEW NETHERLAND AND NEW
[00:22:19] AMSTERDAM, THE PLACE THAT BECOMES NEW YORK CITY WAS
[00:22:23] TOLERANT AND CAPITALIST AND MULTI CULTURAL AND
[00:22:26] MULTI-RELIGIOUS FROM THE VERY BEGINNING. LOOK, THERE WAS EVEN A MUSLIM
[00:22:31] RIGHT? SO SO WE MIGHT SAY THAT, YES,
[00:22:33] THAT IS A MUCH HAPPIER STORY
[00:22:35] THAN YOU WOULD FIND IN LOTS OF OTHER PLACES.
[00:22:38] ON THE OTHER HAND, YOU COULD SAY
[00:22:41] THIS IS A COUPLE THAT IS BANISHED FROM THE COLONY.
[00:22:45] RIGHT. THAT ARE DISCRIMINATED AS PERHAPS TOO STRONG A WORD, BUT
[00:22:48] THAT ARE LOOKED DOWN UPON, THAT ARE IMPUGNED, THAT ARE INSULTED
[00:22:52] AND ALL KINDS OF WAYS. AND THAT REALLY REPRESENTS SORT
[00:22:54] OF THE BOUNDS OF TOLERATION IN A
[00:22:58] PLACE LIKE NEW NETHERLAND.
[00:23:00] AND HELP US TO THINK ABOUT HOW
[00:23:02] FAR TOLERANCE ACTUALLY WENT IN
[00:23:07] IN THIS DUTCH SOCIETY OR DIDN'T GO OR DIDN'T GO.
[00:23:10] SO IN THE CASE OF A PERCEIVED MUSLIM, WE CAN ALSO LOOK AT THE
[00:23:14] COLONY IN THE WAY -- WERE
[00:23:15] TREATED IN STUYVESANT TRYING TO EXPEL THEM.
[00:23:20] QUAKERS TOTALLY. WE HAVE IN THE IN THE EXHIBITION
[00:23:22] HERE WE HAD UNTIL THE OTHER DAY
[00:23:25] THE THE ORIGINAL THE FLUSHING
[00:23:27] REMONSTRANCE ITSELF. WE WE COULD ONLY HAVE IT FOR A WEEK BECAUSE IT'S A VERY FRAGILE
[00:23:32] DOCUMENT WHICH SPEAKS TO THIS
[00:23:34] NOTION OF THE LIMITS OF DUTCH TOLERANCE.
[00:23:37] SO THERE IS THIS OFFICIAL POLICY AND YET IN PRACTICE THINGS GET
[00:23:41] MORE COMPLICATED.
[00:23:44] AND I GUESS THAT'S PART OF THE STORY OF ANTHONY WITH THE CAVEAT
[00:23:48] THAT YOU'RE SAYING HE WAS NEVER MUSLIM TO BEGIN WITH. RIGHT? RIGHT.
[00:23:51] BUT HE HE IS PERCEIVED TO BE AT THE TIME. RIGHT, RIGHT, RIGHT.
[00:23:55] SO SO HOW THEN AND I'M ASKING YOU TO SPECULATE HERE, IF HE IF
[00:23:58] INDEED ANTHONY WASN'T A MUSLIM AND EVERYBODY WAS TREATING HIM A
[00:24:02] CERTAIN WAYS BECAUSE HE WAS A MUSLIM, I MEAN, WOULDN'T HE HAVE
[00:24:04] JUST SAID, NO, YOU'VE GOT THE WRONG GUY? YEAH.
[00:24:08] I MEAN, SO WE DON'T HAVE ANY A
[00:24:11] PART FROM STATEMENTS WRITTEN IN
[00:24:14] RECORDS BY OTHERS CLAIMING TO BE ANTHONY'S WORDS.
[00:24:18] YEAH, WE DON'T HAVE ANY LETTERS. WE DON'T HAVE A DIARY. WE DON'T HAVE ANY STATEMENTS BY
[00:24:22] ANTHONY ABOUT HIS PERCEIVED, YOU KNOW, HOW HE THINKS ABOUT HIMSELF.
[00:24:28] WE HAVE HIS ACTIONS. AND SO I IN THE BOOK ARGUE THAT
[00:24:31] WE HAVE TO READ HIS ACTIONS AS STATEMENTS ABOUT WHAT HE THOUGHT
[00:24:35] ABOUT HIMSELF AND THESE ALL HIS
[00:24:37] ACTIONS SUGGEST THAT HE
[00:24:39] CONSIDERS HIMSELF TO BE A AT
[00:24:41] LEAST MEMBER OF DUTCH REFORM
[00:24:46] SOCIETY, THE DOMINANT CULTURAL,
[00:24:48] RELIGIOUS MILIEU IN WHICH HE
[00:24:52] LIVED. HE SAW HIMSELF AS PART OF THE COMMUNITY. RIGHT.
[00:24:56] EVEN AFTER HE'S BANISHED. AND MAYBE WE CAN TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THEIR LIVES ONCE
[00:24:59] THEY'RE ON LONG ISLAND, EVEN AFTER THEY'RE BANISHED, THEY STILL PLAY A VERY IMPORTANT ROLE
[00:25:03] IN THE LIFE OF THE COLONY.
[00:25:06] SO BAPTISM BAPTIZING A CHILD IS
[00:25:09] A WAY OF MAKING CLAIMS THAT WE BELONG TO THE SOCIETY OWNING
[00:25:15] PROPERTY, USING THE INSTITUTIONS
[00:25:17] OF THAT SOCIETY FOR ALL KINDS OF
[00:25:21] TRANSACTIONS IS A PART OF MAKING A CLAIM THAT WE BELONG TO THIS
[00:25:25] SOCIETY. AND SO I THINK ANTHONY SAW HIMSELF AS BELONGING TO NEW NETHERLAND.
[00:25:29] MAYBE HE WASN'T RELIGIOUS AT ALL. YEAH, YOU KNOW, MAYBE HE DIDN'T
[00:25:32] BELIEVE IN IN THE NEED TO HAVE A RELIGION.
[00:25:36] OR MAYBE HE WAS INDEED A MUSLIM ORIGINALLY.
[00:25:38] BUT SURE, I MEAN, HOW HOW CAN YOU BE A MEMBER OF A COMMUNITY
[00:25:42] IF YOU'RE THE ONLY MEMBER OF A OF THE COMMUNITY YOU IT'S EASIER
[00:25:46] TO SAY, YOU KNOW WHAT, THIS IS MY COMMUNITY. I'LL THAT'S RIGHT.
[00:25:48] AND BECAUSE THE THE EARLIEST SOURCE WE HAVE ABOUT ANTHONY IS
[00:25:51] HIS MERIT CERTIFICATE TO RETIRE IN 1629.
[00:25:54] IT IS QUITE POSSIBLE THAT HE WAS
[00:25:56] BORN A MUSLIM AND SOMEHOW CONVERTED EARLY IN HIS LIFE,
[00:26:00] CONVERTED IN AMSTERDAM TO GET MARRIED AGAIN, DIDN'T CARE ABOUT
[00:26:04] RELIGION. MAYBE HE WAS A CLOSETED MUSLIM
[00:26:08] CLAIMING TO BE DUTCH, REFORMED. ALL OF THOSE THINGS ARE POSSIBLE.
[00:26:11] I CAN'T READ ANTHONY'S HEART. I CAN ONLY READ HIS ACTIONS.
[00:26:15] TALK ABOUT THE THERE'S I CAN'T REMEMBER WHERE IT ORIGINATES,
[00:26:19] BUT THERE'S A STORY THAT THERE WAS A KORAN IN. THERE IS A STORY. YEAH.
[00:26:23] YEAH. I MEAN, SO I THINK ONCE THE ONCE
[00:26:26] THE KIND OF MYTHOLOGY OF ANTHONY
[00:26:28] STARTS GOING, IT GOES IN ALL OF THESE DIRECTIONS AS THESE THINGS
[00:26:31] TEND TO DO, IT STARTS SNOWBALLING.
[00:26:33] SO THERE IS THIS STORY THAT IN
[00:26:36] THE 19TH CENTURY AND A SECOND HAND BOOKSHOP IN SOMEWHERE IN
[00:26:39] NEW JERSEY, SOMEONE FOUND SUPPOSEDLY ANTHONY'S KORAN AND
[00:26:43] THEN CONVENIENTLY IT'S BEEN LOST THAT.
[00:26:47] OKAY. SO I DON'T I DON'T PUT TOO MUCH STOCK INTO. YEAH YEAH YEAH. OKAY.
[00:26:50] I ASKED YOU WE'LL GET BACK TO CRETE IN A MOMENT AND AND THEIR
[00:26:53] LIFE IN NEW AMSTERDAM AND BEYOND.
[00:26:56] BUT I ASKED YOU ABOUT MORE THE TURK IS THE OTHER TERM APPLIED
[00:27:01] TO HIM. YEAH. TURK IS SIMILARLY ONE OF THOSE
[00:27:05] SQUIRRELY TERMS IN THIS PERIOD.
[00:27:07] IN THE MOST GENERAL SENSE IN MEANT MUSLIM. MHM. RIGHT.
[00:27:10] TURNING TURK MEANT CONVERTING TO ISLAM. RIGHT.
[00:27:15] SO SOMEONE LIKE JOHN JOHNSON WHEN HE CONVERTS TO ISLAM TO
[00:27:17] GAIN HIS FREEDOM IN NORTH AFRICA IS SAID TO TURN TURK.
[00:27:22] MM. TURK COULD ALSO REFER TO THE
[00:27:25] OTTOMAN EMPIRE RIGHT. ETHNIC TURKS OR THOSE IN THE
[00:27:29] OTTOMAN EMPIRE.
[00:27:31] TURK COULD ALSO IT WAS ALSO USED
[00:27:33] TO REFER TO NON-MUSLIMS, RIGHT?
[00:27:35] IT WAS USED AS AN INSULT TO
[00:27:38] REFER TO OUTSIDERS OF ALL KINDS IN SOCIETY.
[00:27:42] SO WE HAVE INSTANCES AGAIN, OF CHRISTIANS BEING REFERRED TO AS
[00:27:45] TURKS OF --, BEING REFERRED TO AS TURKS, PEOPLE WHO ARE
[00:27:51] REBELLIOUS OR AGAINST THE KIND OF DOMINANT SOCIETY IN WHICH THEY FIND THEMSELVES.
[00:27:53] THEY'RE VERY MODERN ECHOES OF THIS.
[00:27:57] RIGHT? SO IN THE GODFATHER. RIGHT.
[00:28:00] ONE OF ONE OF THE KIND OF ENEMY GUYS IS CALLED THE TURK. RIGHT.
[00:28:06] SO SO BUT TURK IN IN THE MOST GENERAL SENSE SIMPLY MEANT A
[00:28:10] MUSLIM. OKAY. SO IF ANTHONY REPRESENTED A
[00:28:15] CERTAIN VIEW OF OF ISLAM IN THE
[00:28:18] IN THE 17TH CENTURY MINDSET AND
[00:28:20] AND BEYOND, WHAT DID CREED REPRESENT? YEAH.
[00:28:24] I MEAN SO TO ME OR TO HER SOCIETY.
[00:28:28] WELL, TO HER SOCIETY AND THEN,
[00:28:29] YOU KNOW, AND SINCE THEN, I MEAN SHE'S YEAH.
[00:28:33] MYTHOLOGIZED AS WELL. YEAH.
[00:28:35] SHE'S MYTHOLOGIZED AS YOU KNOW
[00:28:37] THE, THE FIRST -- OF NEW YORK
[00:28:40] CITY RIGHT. THERE'S A WHOLE IN A GOOD WAY
[00:28:43] THERE'S EXACTLY, THERE'S A WHOLE AGAIN, INTERNET SORT OF LIFE TO
[00:28:47] THIS STORY OF LUCRETIA.
[00:28:50] AND THAT I THINK DOES HER OBVIOUSLY A DISSERVICE IN ALL
[00:28:54] THE WAYS THAT I DESCRIBED AND MAYBE SOME WAYS THAT I WILL TALK
[00:28:57] ABOUT IN A BIT.
[00:28:58] BUT YES, SHE'S SEEN AS THE WRONG
[00:29:02] KIND OF WOMAN IN THE COLONY. RIGHT. OKAY.
[00:29:05] SO TELL US ABOUT THEIR EXPULSION. RIGHT.
[00:29:11] SO. IN 1639, ALL OF THESE CASES,
[00:29:14] SOME OF WHICH WE'VE REFERENCED ALREADY, THEIR FIGHTS WITH THEIR
[00:29:18] NEIGHBORS, EGREGIOUS FIGHT WITH THE DUTCH REFORMED MINISTER'S
[00:29:22] WIFE, MEASURING THESE PEOPLE IN
[00:29:25] HER HOME. ALL OF THIS COMES TO COMES TO A
[00:29:31] CLIMAX AND THEY ARE EVENTUALLY
[00:29:33] BANISHED TO THE WILDS OF
[00:29:37] BROOKLYN. THEY END UP IN WHAT IS TODAY GRAVESEND.
[00:29:40] SO ACROSS FROM CONEY ISLAND, AND
[00:29:43] IT'S THERE THAT THEY LIVE LONGER
[00:29:46] THAN ANYWHERE ELSE, EACH OF THEM IN THEIR LIVES.
[00:29:50] THEY HAVE A VERY LARGE ESTATE OF
[00:29:54] SOME 200 ACRES. THEY HAVE ANIMALS, THEY GROW
[00:29:57] CROPS, INCLUDING PUMPKINS AND
[00:29:59] OTHER THINGS. BY ALL ACCOUNTS, THEY'RE SOME OF
[00:30:03] THE FIRST NON-NATIVE PEOPLE TO SETTLE ON LONG ISLAND SOON.
[00:30:08] ENGLISH WHO HAVE BEEN EXPELLED FROM OR LEAVE OF THEIR OWN
[00:30:11] ACCOUNTS FROM MASSACHUSETTS END
[00:30:14] UP COMING TO SETTLE NEAR THEM.
[00:30:17] BUT THAT'S REALLY WHERE THEY
[00:30:20] CREATE KIND OF THE THE MOST
[00:30:22] IMPORTANT PERIOD OF THEIR LIFE. THEY HAVE FOUR DAUGHTERS.
[00:30:26] THEY LIVE WITH THEIR DAUGHTERS THERE.
[00:30:28] THEY START ACCRUING WEALTH
[00:30:30] THROUGH THEIR LAND BY SELLING
[00:30:34] CROPS, BY OR THROUGH THEIR
[00:30:37] ANIMALS, AND THEY BECOME THE
[00:30:40] ELITE OF THAT AREA OF THE COLONY
[00:30:44] OVER WHAT PERIOD OF TIME? RIGHT. SO A REALLY IMPORTANT PIECE OF
[00:30:47] THIS STORY OF HOW THEY GO FROM
[00:30:49] BEING BANISHED, THE TURK AND THE
[00:30:52] -- TO LAND GENTRY IN GRAVESEND
[00:30:56] IS THE LARGEST WAR IN THE COLONIES HISTORY.
[00:30:58] KEITH'S WAR, WHICH IS THE 1640S
[00:31:03] THEY SERVE AS A KIND OF ADVANCE
[00:31:05] GUARD FOR THE MILITARY
[00:31:07] OPERATIONS THAT THE COLONY UNDERTAKES AGAINST NATIVE
[00:31:11] PEOPLES IN THIS AREA OF LONG ISLAND. THE COLONY IS INTERESTED IN
[00:31:16] EXPANDING ACROSS THE WATERS TO LONG ISLAND, AND THEY USED
[00:31:20] ANTHONY AND HIS FARM AS A KIND
[00:31:22] OF BASE OF OPERATIONS.
[00:31:24] AND SO WE HAVE ACCOUNTS OF THE COUNCILS SAYING THAT WE SHOULD SEND ARMS.
[00:31:30] WE SHOULD SEND SOLDIERS IN. A LOT OF FIGHTING HAPPENED IN
[00:31:32] AND AROUND THEIR AREA. IT'S IN THIS PERIOD THAT THEY
[00:31:38] REGISTER THEIR LAND. SO THE VERY FAMOUS DEED IS 1643.
[00:31:42] THEY ACTUALLY RECEIVE THE LAND
[00:31:46] IN 1639, BUT DON'T REGISTER IT UNTIL 1643.
[00:31:48] DURING THE WAR TO MAKE CLAIMS TO
[00:31:50] THIS TERRITORY WHEN IT'S BEING THREATENED THROUGH THESE HOSTILITIES.
[00:31:56] SO AFTER THE WAR, THEY'RE NOT
[00:31:59] UNSCATHED, BUT THEY SURVIVE IN
[00:32:01] THE WAYS THAT OTHER AREAS DID NOT AND HAVE REALLY PROVEN
[00:32:05] THEMSELVES AS A KIND OF CENTRAL NODE OF EXPANSION FOR THE COLONY.
[00:32:09] SO YOU COULD INFER THAT AS A
[00:32:11] RESULT OF THAT EXPERIENCE, THEY
[00:32:13] BECAME MORE ACCEPTED, USEFUL,
[00:32:19] USEFUL, CERTAINLY ACCEPTED IS
[00:32:21] HARD TO KNOW BECAUSE THEY HAVE
[00:32:23] FAR FEWER KIND OF DAILY
[00:32:26] NEIGHBORLY INTERACTIONS THAN THEY DID IN THE MUCH MORE
[00:32:29] DENSELY POPULATED NEW AMSTERDAM, WHICH WAS NOT THAT DENSELY
[00:32:34] POPULATED, BUT MORE THAN GRAVESEND IN THIS PERIOD.
[00:32:38] MOST OF THE FIGHTS THAT THEY HAVE ARE ACTUALLY WITH THESE ENGLISH NEIGHBORS WHO START
[00:32:41] SETTLING NEAR THEM. AND THAT IS QUITE USEFUL FOR THE
[00:32:44] DUTCH BECAUSE THE DUTCH DO NOT WANT THE ENGLISH TO BE SO THEN
[00:32:47] THE DUTCH WANT TO SEE THEM AS DUTCH. YES, EXACTLY.
[00:32:51] SO THAT THE DUTCH SEE THEM AS VERY USEFUL IN PUSHING AGAINST
[00:32:55] AGAINST THE ENGLISH AND ANTHONY
[00:32:57] AND GRETA GO BACK, YOU KNOW,
[00:33:01] MANY TIMES TO FORT AMSTERDAM IN
[00:33:04] IN NEW AMSTERDAM TO REGISTER ALL
[00:33:07] KINDS OF AFFAIRS RATES. SERVES AS A WITNESS FOR
[00:33:11] BAPTISMS, WHICH IS A VERY IMPORTANT ROLE THAT PEOPLE PLAY. IT MEANS YOU'RE ACCEPTED.
[00:33:15] EXACTLY. AND THAT MEANS THAT SHE SHE WAS SEEN AS AN UPSTANDING MEMBER OF SOCIETY.
[00:33:20] SO THE ARC OF GRETA'S LIFE IN
[00:33:22] SOME WAYS FROM AMSTERDAM
[00:33:24] DOCKYARDS TO, YOU KNOW, MOONING
[00:33:26] A SHIP TO BECOMING A KIND OF
[00:33:30] LANDED ELITE RESPECT AND MEMBER
[00:33:33] OF SOCIETY THAT PEOPLE WANTED AS A WITNESS AT BAPTISMS IS A REALLY KIND OF REMARKABLE
[00:33:37] TRANSFORMATION. YEAH. YEAH. SO, I MEAN, THE STORY THAT YOU
[00:33:41] TELL IT IS THIS NOTION OF TOLERANCE AND INTOLERANCE.
[00:33:44] I MEAN, YOU HAVE THIS THE REAL
[00:33:47] WORLD IS NOT THE REAL WORLD IS
[00:33:50] ONE IN WHICH PEOPLE FEAR THAT
[00:33:52] WHICH IS UNKNOWN AND OR THAT WHICH IS DIFFERENT.
[00:33:56] AND AND YOU SEE THAT APPARENTLY IN THE RECORDS.
[00:34:00] IF IF ANTHONY INDEED LOOKED
[00:34:01] DIFFERENT THAN HIS HE'S TREATED
[00:34:06] A CERTAIN WAY.
[00:34:08] AND SHE HAD HER ISSUES.
[00:34:10] BUT THEN AS PEOPLE GET USED TO
[00:34:12] PEOPLE THEY I MEAN THIS THIS IS A STORY THAT PLAYS OUT OVER AND
[00:34:16] OVER IN NEW YORK'S HISTORY AS WELL AS MAYBE EVERYWHERE ELSE.
[00:34:20] AND, YOU KNOW, SO WE'RE SEEING
[00:34:22] THIS WHOLE DEVELOPMENT TAKE PLACE IN THESE TWO PEOPLE.
[00:34:26] YEAH. AND, YOU KNOW, I DO THINK WE CAN
[00:34:28] THINK OF ABOUT THEM AS AS A KIND OF QUINTESSENTIALLY IMMIGRANT,
[00:34:32] NEW YORK KIND OF STORY. THEY COME AND THEY STAY, UNLIKE
[00:34:36] A LOT OF THE PEOPLE RIGHT. WHO ARE IN NEW NETHERLAND WHO
[00:34:40] COME FOR A FEW YEARS, TRY TO MAKE SOME MONEY OFF OF FURS AND THEN TAKE OFF.
[00:34:43] THEY LIVE THERE FOR DECADES. YOU KNOW, ACROSS BASICALLY THE
[00:34:47] ENTIRE LIFE OF THE COLONY.
[00:34:49] THEY LIVE PAST 664, BOTH OF THEM.
[00:34:52] THEY'RE SOME OF THE LONGEST
[00:34:54] LASTING RESIDENTS OF THE COLONY. AND SO THAT'S WHEN I SAY THAT,
[00:34:58] YOU KNOW, ANTHONY REALLY SAW HIMSELF AS BELONGING TO NEW NETHERLAND MORE THAN ANYTHING. YEAH. YEAH.
[00:35:02] AND SHE DIES FIRST.
[00:35:04] SHE DOES 1669 AND HE REMARRIES. HE REMARRIES.
[00:35:08] SO ALSO MAYBE A QUINTESSENTIALLY
[00:35:11] NEW YORK STORY. HE MARRIES A YOUNGER WOMAN 20
[00:35:15] YEARS. HIS YOUNGER MOVES BACK TO
[00:35:19] MANHATTAN AND TO BRIDGE STREET
[00:35:24] AND. LIVES OUT THE REST OF HIS DAYS ON BRIDGE STREET.
[00:35:27] VERY INTERESTING. LEE, ONE OF THE LAST SOURCES WE
[00:35:31] HAVE ABOUT ANTHONY IS A KIND OF
[00:35:33] A REGISTER OF PROPERTY OWNERS ON BREAD STREET.
[00:35:37] AND IT REFERS TO HIM AS DUTCH.
[00:35:41] SO SO THAT'S VERY TELLING.
[00:35:43] I THINK THAT BY THE END OF HIS
[00:35:45] LIFE, THIS PERSON WHO MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE BEEN FROM SPAIN OR
[00:35:49] NORTH AFRICA WAS MALIGNED FOR MUCH OF HIS LIFE.
[00:35:53] IS BANISHED, COMES BACK.
[00:35:55] THE COLONY IS NO LONGER.
[00:35:57] BUT HE IS SEEN AS BEING A DUTCH
[00:36:02] MEMBER OF OF SOCIETY. HMM. WHO DO WE KNOW?
[00:36:06] WHO WERE THERE WITHIN THIS COLONY? WITHIN THE SETTLEMENT WITHIN NEW
[00:36:10] AMSTERDAM ENVIRONS? DO WE KNOW WHO WERE THERE? DID THEY HAVE ALLIES?
[00:36:13] DID THEY HAVE FRIENDS? DID THEIR PARTICULAR FOES?
[00:36:18] UM, THAT'S A GOOD THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION.
[00:36:20] I MEAN, SO THEIR DAUGHTERS MARRY
[00:36:23] VERY WELL.
[00:36:25] THEY MARRY DUTCH AND ENGLISH,
[00:36:31] BUT IT'S NOT CLEAR THAT THEY HAVE FRIENDS. RIGHT?
[00:36:35] ALL THE NEIGHBORS THEY HAVE SEEM TO COMPLAIN ABOUT THEM. YEAH.
[00:36:38] AND YOU KNOW, THE FUN AND THE THING TOO, ABOUT DEALING WITH
[00:36:43] RECORDS LIKE IF THE WHAT IF WHAT YET IF WHAT YOU HAVE TO RELY ON
[00:36:46] ARE COURT CASE OR IF YOU GET A SKEWED PICTURE OF SOCIETY
[00:36:50] BECAUSE IT'S ONLY CERTAIN PEOPLE WHO TURN OFF FOR CERTAIN REASONS
[00:36:54] AND AND MAYBE THOSE PEOPLE ARE
[00:36:56] BEING SCAPEGOATED.
[00:36:58] SO THAT COMPLICATES THINGS. YOU CAN'T OR YOU CAN'T TELL.
[00:37:02] I MEAN, IF THEY'RE SPENDING
[00:37:05] SUNDAY DINNER WITH SOMEONE THAT'S IT'S NOT WRITTEN DOWN ANYWHERE.
[00:37:08] RIGHT. AND THEY ARE, AS WE SAID AT THE SORT OF BEGINNING, THEY'RE VERY
[00:37:12] LITIGIOUS. AND THAT'S THAT'S GOOD FOR A HISTORIAN BECAUSE AS YOU SAY THERE IN THE SOURCES A LOT.
[00:37:17] YEAH. OKAY.
[00:37:17] SO IN YOU SPEAK OF THERE THEIR
[00:37:23] DISPUTATIOUS DAUGHTERS IN WHAT WAY WERE THEIR DAUGHTERS DISPUTATIOUS.
[00:37:27] YEAH SO THIS IS REALLY GETS US
[00:37:30] TO THE KIND OF END OF THE STORY.
[00:37:32] SO AGAIN, NOT AN UNCOMMON THING
[00:37:36] THAT WE MIGHT THINK OF TODAY.
[00:37:39] THE DAUGHTERS BATTLE WITH METTA
[00:37:44] ANTHONY'S SECOND WIFE OVER HIS PROPERTIES.
[00:37:46] SO HE DOESN'T LEAVE A WILL.
[00:37:50] BUT ANTHONY AND MATTIA HAVE A WHAT IS ESSENTIALLY A PRENUP,
[00:37:54] SAYING THAT WHOEVER DIES FIRST, THE OTHER WILL INHERIT ALL OF
[00:37:58] THEIR PROPERTY. SO ANTHONY DISINHERITED HIS
[00:38:01] DAUGHTERS, WHICH IS SOMETHING
[00:38:03] THAT I THOUGHT A LOT ABOUT. IT'S NOT IT'S NOT CLEAR TO ME
[00:38:07] EXACTLY WHY HE WOULD CHOOSE TO DO THAT.
[00:38:10] HE DOES GET IN AN ARGUMENT WITH
[00:38:14] ONE OF HIS SON IN LAWS, AN ENGLISHMAN THAT IS PART OF THIS
[00:38:18] RIVALRY BETWEEN THE ENGLISH AND
[00:38:18] THE DUTCH COMMUNITY IN GRAVESEND.
[00:38:22] SO THAT MIGHT BE PART OF PART OF THE STORY.
[00:38:26] BUT BUT YEAH, SO THE DAUGHTERS BRING THIS CASE TO COURT.
[00:38:29] THEY TRY TO GET SOME PROPERTY FROM MATTIA, BUT BECAUSE OF THIS
[00:38:34] AGREEMENT, THEY ARE THEY ARE DISINHERITED FROM, FROM THE
[00:38:38] PROPERTIES, BUT IT'S THROUGH THE DAUGHTERS OBVIOUSLY, THAT THEIR
[00:38:43] DESCENDANTS COME DOWN TO US. SO AGAIN, THERE'S A LOT OF
[00:38:48] MYTHOLOGY ABOUT WHO IS RELATED TO ANTHONY AND LUCRETIA
[00:38:52] BASICALLY ANYONE WITH A DUTCH NAME IS THOUGHT TO SOMEHOW HAVE
[00:38:55] A CONNECTION TO THEM. THE MOST RELIABLE CONNECTIONS WE
[00:38:58] CAN DRAW ARE THE VANDERBILTS AND
[00:39:02] PRESIDENT WARREN G. HARDING IS A DESCENDANT OF THEM.
[00:39:05] SO THIS IS TRULY A NEW YORK STORY. IT'S TRULY A NEW YORK CONTEMPORARY SENSE.
[00:39:09] YEAH. TOLERANCE TO INTOLERANCE, TO VANDERBILT. YEAH.
[00:39:12] I MEAN, OKAY, SO.
[00:39:17] SO THEY'RE BOTH ALIVE AT THE
[00:39:20] TIME OF THE ENGLISH TAKEOVER.
[00:39:23] DO WE KNOW WHAT ROLE, IF ANY, THEY PLAY IN THOSE EVENTS?
[00:39:27] YEAH, IT DOESN'T SEEM THAT THEY PLAYED ANY PARTICULAR ROLE THERE
[00:39:31] IN GRAVESEND, RIGHT THERE, GRAVESEND WAS WHERE THE ENGLISH
[00:39:35] WERE, RIGHT, RIGHT, RIGHT. YEAH.
[00:39:37] SO LADY MOODY, WHO IS THEIR
[00:39:41] PRIMARY COMBATANTS SLASH NEIGHBOR.
[00:39:45] IS PART OF THE ANCHOR OF GRAVESEND.
[00:39:48] AND RUSSELL JUST WROTE A BOOK ABOUT THIS.
[00:39:50] BUT GRAVESEND SERVES. YES.
[00:39:52] AS YOU SAY, AS A VERY IMPORTANT KIND OF NODE FOR THE ENGLISH TO
[00:39:55] LAND IN LONG ISLAND. BUT ANTHONY AND RICHARD, THEY
[00:39:58] DON'T REALLY FROM THE SOURCES, THEY DON'T SEEM TO PLAY A
[00:40:02] PARTICULAR ROLE. OKAY.
[00:40:06] SO YOU SKETCHED OUT THIS MYTH OF
[00:40:08] THE TWO OF THEM AND YOU HAVE
[00:40:12] JUST PULLED IT APART TO SOME EXTENT.
[00:40:17] BUT THEN AGAIN, IT KIND OF COMES BACK INTO PLACE BECAUSE MAYBE HE
[00:40:21] WAS MUSLIM, BUT HE DID WHAT YOU
[00:40:23] WOULD MIGHT LOGICALLY DO IN A PLACE WHERE YOU NEED TO FIT IN
[00:40:27] TO SURVIVE.
[00:40:29] AND SHE INDEED HAD BEEN A PROSTITUTE.
[00:40:35] BUT AND YOU'VE GIVEN A YOU'VE
[00:40:39] GIVEN A KIND OF FLESH AND BLOOD TO NOBODY JUST SAYS, I WANT TO
[00:40:42] BE A PROSTITUTE. THINGS HAPPEN IN YOUR IN YOUR
[00:40:45] YOU END UP TRAGICALLY FALLING
[00:40:48] INTO A CERTAIN SITUATIONS. SO YOU'VE SKETCHED THAT OUT AND
[00:40:52] YET TO ME THESE MYTHS KIND OF I MEAN THERE'S SOME SUBSTANCE TO
[00:40:56] THEM AS WELL.
[00:40:58] FEEL FREE TO ARGUE AGAINST ME.
[00:41:03] YEAH, WELL, I WOULD MAYBE SAY A
[00:41:08] COUPLE OF THINGS.
[00:41:11] ONE IS IF INDEED A CREATURE WAS
[00:41:15] A SEX WORKER AT ONE POINT IN HER LIFE, THAT SHOULD NOT BE THE
[00:41:20] SUMMATION OF HER IDENTITY. SHE DID MANY THINGS IN HER LIFE
[00:41:24] AND THE MYTH OF ANTHONY AS MUSLIM IS IMPORTANT.
[00:41:28] I INITIALLY ENTERED THIS WORK
[00:41:33] WANTING THERE TO BE A MUSLIM IN
[00:41:35] NEW YORK CITY AND THE 17TH CENTURY TO TELL THAT BECAUSE
[00:41:39] THIS IS YOUR YOUR FIELD, RIGHT? SO I BEGAN MY LIFE AS A
[00:41:41] HISTORIAN OF THE MIDDLE EAST AND THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE.
[00:41:44] AND WHEN I HEARD OF THIS STORY OF THIS FIRST MUSLIM OF NEW YORK
[00:41:47] CITY, I WAS VERY INTRIGUED. AND I SORT OF REALLY WANTED
[00:41:51] ANTHONY TO BE MUSLIM AT SOME POINT. BUT I THINK ANY SERIOUS READING
[00:41:53] OF THE SOURCES THROWS THAT INTO
[00:41:57] DEEP DOUBT. HMM.
[00:41:59] BUT THE IMAGE OF ISLAM WAS
[00:42:01] PRESENT IN NEW NETHERLAND, RIGHT? THE WAY THEY TALKED ABOUT HIM
[00:42:06] AND THE WAY THEY DISPARAGED HIM IN THE TERMS THAT THEY USED
[00:42:08] WRITE, CALLING HIM A TURK, A
[00:42:12] MUHAMMAD, IN SAYING HE WAS FROM NORTH AFRICA.
[00:42:14] SO ISLAM WAS PRESENT IN NEW
[00:42:18] NETHERLAND. I JUST THINK IT'S HARD TO CALL
[00:42:22] ANTHONY AS A NORMATIVE OF WHAT WE MIGHT THINK OF AS A BELIEVING
[00:42:26] MUSLIM PERSON. SURE. OKAY.
[00:42:29] AND IN CRETE AND HER MYTH VERSUS.
[00:42:33] YEAH, I THINK I MEAN, ONE I THINK, AS I SAID BEFORE, THE ARC
[00:42:37] OF HER LIFE IS IN SOME WAYS MUCH
[00:42:41] MORE INTERESTING AND MOVES MUCH
[00:42:45] FURTHER THAN ANTHONY'S FROM VESSEL TO AMSTERDAM.
[00:42:49] THIS VERY, VERY DIFFICULT
[00:42:53] CIRCUMSTANCES IN AMSTERDAM BEING
[00:42:56] IMPUGNED IN THE COLONY TO BECOMING THIS KIND OF RESPECTED
[00:42:59] MEMBER OF SOCIETY, MARRYING OFF
[00:43:03] HER DAUGHTERS VERY WELL.
[00:43:05] I THINK WE SHOULD SEE HER AS.
[00:43:08] A 17TH CENTURY WOMAN WHO DIDN'T
[00:43:11] GIVE IN TO HER SOCIETY. RIGHT.
[00:43:13] SHE WASN'T A WOMAN IN SALEM. YEAH.
[00:43:17] YEAH, RIGHT. SHE WASN'T HESTER PRYNNE. SHE WAS SOMEONE WHO PUNCHED
[00:43:21] BACK. RIGHT. AND THE IMAGE OF HER MOONING
[00:43:23] THOSE PEOPLE WHO INSULTED HER, I THINK, IS THE IMAGE WE SHOULD
[00:43:26] HAVE OF HER IN OUR HEADS. RIGHT. OF SOMEONE WHO'S NOT GOING TO
[00:43:30] TAKE IT. YEAH. YEAH. AND THEN. AND SHE OVER AND OVER WHEN SHE
[00:43:33] APPEARS IN THE RECORDS, THERE'S A KIND OF DEFIANCE. YES. YEAH. YEAH.
[00:43:36] WHICH IS A YOU KNOW, A MUCH
[00:43:38] DIFFERENT STORY THAN, YOU KNOW, THE FIRST -- OF NEW YORK CITY.
[00:43:41] YEAH, THAT'S INTERESTING. I NEVER THOUGHT OF IT THAT WAY. THAT SHE'S DEFIANT THROUGHOUT,
[00:43:44] AND HE ESPECIALLY IF HE, IN FACT, SOMEWHERE IN HIS PAST
[00:43:48] ORIGINALLY WAS MUSLIM, HE'S THE OPPOSITE. HE WANTS TO FIT IN. HE WANTS TO.
[00:43:53] THAT'S RIGHT. YEAH, HE WANTS. HE WANTS TO GET ALONG. YEAH. YEAH. I MEAN IN COUPLES ARE LIKE THAT.
[00:43:57] YOU NO ONE IS MORE YOU KNOW YOU COULD SEE THEM ARGUING ABOUT THESE THINGS. OKAY.
[00:44:02] QUESTION FROM THE AUDIENCE.
[00:44:04] DESPITE THE OTHERING, WAS THERE SOMETHING UNIQUE ABOUT NEW
[00:44:08] AMSTERDAM THAT ALLOWED THEIR
[00:44:10] FAMILIES EVENTUAL SUCCESS.
[00:44:15] YEAH, THAT'S THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION.
[00:44:18] I MEAN, I THINK THE KIND OF
[00:44:22] OPENNESS OF OF NEW AMSTERDAM,
[00:44:23] RIGHT, THAT EVERYTHING WAS KIND
[00:44:26] OF UP FOR GRABS IN SOME WAYS BECAUSE IT'S SO SMALL AND SO
[00:44:29] KIND OF LIMINAL, RIGHT? I MEAN, FROM FROM THE DUTCH
[00:44:34] PERSPECTIVE, FOR FOR THE DUTCH
[00:44:36] EMPIRE, THE THE INDIES IS REALLY
[00:44:40] THE, THE THE THE JEWEL OF THE CROWN, RIGHT?
[00:44:43] THE ATLANTIC WORLD IS SECONDARY
[00:44:46] AND EVEN IN THE ATLANTIC WORLD, YOU KNOW, BRAZIL IS REALLY THE
[00:44:49] HEART OF IT. AND NEW AMSTERDAM IS JUST A KIND OF THROWAWAY, RIGHT?
[00:44:54] COMPLETELY IGNORABLE.
[00:44:56] AND SO IF ONE YOU KNOW, IT WAS
[00:45:01] AN IT WAS IT WAS A PLACE WHERE ONE IF ONE REALLY TRIED, ONE CAN
[00:45:03] KIND OF MAKE IT RIGHT BECAUSE NOTHING WAS HOLDING THEM BACK.
[00:45:09] THERE WAS A KIND OF WILD WEST ASPECT. THERE WAS A KIND OF WILD WEST
[00:45:13] OPENNESS TO IT.
[00:45:15] AND NEVERTHELESS, YOU'RE A PART OF ALL OF THIS KIND OF
[00:45:19] COMMERCIAL. THE COMMERCIAL WORLD THAT IS THE DUTCH EMPIRE.
[00:45:23] SO THAT MIGHT BE PART OF THE REASON.
[00:45:26] SO THERE WAS OPPORTUNITY THAT THINGS WEREN'T AS FIXED AS THEY
[00:45:30] MIGHT HAVE BEEN IN. THAT'S RIGHT. AND ALSO AND ALSO, WE SHOULD SAY
[00:45:34] THAT DUTCH LAW IN THE COLONY WAS
[00:45:38] EQUANIMITY. IS RIGHT.
[00:45:40] IT PROVIDED OPPORTUNE CITY IN
[00:45:43] WAYS THAT FOR EXAMPLE, IN THE ENGLISH COLONIES DIDN'T EXIST.
[00:45:47] RIGHT. TO THE EXTENT THAT ENSLAVED
[00:45:49] PEOPLE COULD USE THE COURTS OF
[00:45:51] OF NEW AMSTERDAM AND OFTEN WON
[00:45:54] AGAINST FREE PEOPLE. YEAH.
[00:45:57] SO IT'S BOTH MORE OPEN AND ALSO HAS A KIND OF INFRASTRUCTURE OF
[00:46:00] OF LAW AND OF OF OF KIND OF
[00:46:04] SOCIAL MORES. NO, THIS IS A CLARIFICATION. THEY'RE ASKING FOR BECAUSE I
[00:46:08] THINK MAYBE I WE JUMPED OVER TOO QUICKLY.
[00:46:12] IS THERE NO RECORD LINKING ANTHONY TO YANN JOHNSON AND IS
[00:46:16] THERE NO RECORD OF ANTHONY'S PARENTAGE?
[00:46:18] E RIGHT. SO THERE IS NO SOURCE LINKING
[00:46:22] ANTHONY TO YOUNG JOHNSON. OKAY.
[00:46:25] THAT IS THE SO IN THE 19TH
[00:46:28] CENTURY, TUNIS BIRKIN, WHO IS A
[00:46:30] VERY FAMOUS NEW YORK CHARACTER
[00:46:32] WHO SERVED IN CONGRESS, FOUNDED THE LONG ISLAND HISTORICAL
[00:46:36] SOCIETY, WHAT IS TODAY THE CENTER FOR BROOKLYN HISTORY.
[00:46:41] READS THE 17TH CENTURY DUTCH
[00:46:43] SOURCE ABOUT THESE DUTCH
[00:46:46] CONVERTS TO ISLAM IN IN MOROCCO.
[00:46:51] THAT SPEAKS ABOUT JOHN JOHNSON AND THAT SOURCE SAYS NOTHING
[00:46:56] ABOUT JOHN HAVING A SON NAMED ANTHONY.
[00:47:00] SO THERE'S NO SOURCE LINKING JOHN TO ANTHONY. IN THE BOOK. I GO THROUGH A LOT OF DETAIL TO
[00:47:05] SHOW HOW IT'S PROBABLY
[00:47:06] IMPOSSIBLE FOR HIM TO BE THE SON
[00:47:09] OF JOHN JOHNSON AS THE FIRST SOURCE.
[00:47:11] WE HAVE ABOUT ANTHONY IS THE MARRIAGE CERTIFICATE.
[00:47:15] IF WE BELIEVE WHAT ANTHONY'S SAYS IN THE MARRIAGE
[00:47:19] CERTIFICATE, HE WAS 22.
[00:47:22] IN 1629, WHICH MEANS HE WAS BORN IN 1606 OR 1607.
[00:47:27] JOHN WAS NOT EVEN CAPTURED BY NORTH AFRICAN PIRATES UNTIL 1618
[00:47:31] AND IS STILL IN HARLEM. HE'S FROM HARLEM IN THE
[00:47:35] NETHERLANDS, HAVING CHILDREN. HE'S MARRIED IN THE NETHERLANDS
[00:47:39] AND HAS FOUR DAUGHTERS THERE. SO AGAIN, IF WE BELIEVE ANTHONY
[00:47:43] IN THE MARRIAGE CERTIFICATE, THE DATES DON'T WORK FOR HIM TO BE
[00:47:46] THE SON OF OF JOHN IN THE
[00:47:48] MARRIAGE CERTIFICATE. ANTHONY ALSO SAYS THAT HIS
[00:47:51] PARENTS ARE DECEASED. SO THAT'S THE ONLY THING WE KNOW
[00:47:56] ABOUT HIS PARENTAGE. OKAY.
[00:47:59] DO WE HAVE ANY INSIGHT INTO THEIR RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE TWO OF THEM, HOW HOW THEY MAY
[00:48:03] HAVE AIDED ONE ANOTHER IN ACHIEVING THEIR SUCCESS?
[00:48:07] VERY GOOD QUESTION.
[00:48:08] AGAIN, WE DON'T HAVE A DIARY OR
[00:48:12] LETTERS OR A TRANSCRIPT OF A CONVERSATION.
[00:48:15] THEY MAY HAVE HAD. BUT, YOU KNOW, I THOUGHT A LOT ABOUT THIS QUESTION.
[00:48:18] OF COURSE, BECAUSE THAT
[00:48:22] RELATIONSHIP IS REALLY THE CENTER OF THIS BOOK AND IT WAS
[00:48:25] THE CENTER OF THEIR LIVES FOR
[00:48:28] FOR EACH OF THEM. SO ONE OF THE WAYS I THOUGHT
[00:48:32] ABOUT THIS IS, YOU KNOW, WHAT LANGUAGE DID THEY SPEAK? DID THEY SPEAK?
[00:48:36] SO SHE PROBABLY SPOKE DUTCH. IN AMSTERDAM.
[00:48:40] HE PROBABLY DIDN'T.
[00:48:42] IF HE WAS FROM CARTAGENA OR IF
[00:48:44] HE WAS FROM MOROCCO, DID THEY
[00:48:49] COMMUNICATE IN SOME KIND OF, YOU
[00:48:51] KNOW, DOCKYARD CREOLE OF LANGUAGES FROM THE
[00:48:55] MEDITERRANEAN? UNCLEAR. I THINK ONCE THEY WERE HERE,
[00:48:58] ONCE THEY WERE IN NEW NETHERLAND, ANTHONY LEARNED
[00:49:03] DUTCH YEAH, NO DOUBT WAS ONE OF
[00:49:06] THE MAIN REASONS FOR THAT.
[00:49:08] BUT BY ALL ACCOUNTS THEY HAD A
[00:49:12] SUPPORTIVE AND WORKABLE
[00:49:16] RELATIONSHIP. ALAN I NEVER THOUGHT ABOUT THIS BEFORE.
[00:49:19] MAYBE YOU COVERED THIS IN THE BOOK, BUT A LOT OF PEOPLE WENT BACK AND FORTH. YEP.
[00:49:23] DID DO WE HAVE ANY RECORD OF THEM DOING? NO. NO.
[00:49:27] INTERESTING. EVERYTHING WE KNOW AND THEY CAME AND THEY STAYED AND THAT'S
[00:49:31] INTERESTING. YEAH. YEAH. AND THEY REALLY KIND OF HAD EACH OTHER THEN. THAT'S RIGHT.
[00:49:35] YEAH. THEY HAD EACH OTHER.
[00:49:37] THEY, THEY CONDUCTED BUSINESS WITH AMSTERDAM.
[00:49:40] SO FOR INSTANCE, THEY CONTRACTED FOR LABOR TO BE SENT FROM
[00:49:46] AMSTERDAM TO THEIR FARM IN GRAVESEND.
[00:49:48] ANOTHER SIGN OF HOW LARGE AND AND PRODUCTIVE THEIR FARM WAS.
[00:49:52] THAT THEY WERE CONTRACTING LABOR ACROSS THE OCEAN TO COME WORK THERE. YEAH.
[00:49:56] YEAH. WHAT WAS THEIR RELATIONSHIP WITH THE LINEUP?
[00:50:00] YEAH. SO WE DON'T HAVE ANY DIRECT
[00:50:05] EVIDENCE OF THEIR INTERACTIONS,
[00:50:05] BUT THEY, YOU KNOW, FOUGHT THEM
[00:50:09] DURING KEITH'S WAR, RIGHT?
[00:50:13] I THINK IT'S VERY IMPORTANT FOR
[00:50:15] US TO CONSIDER THEM TO BE
[00:50:20] COLONISTS IN THE FIRST INSTANCE, RIGHT. AS HARROWING AS THEIR LIVES
[00:50:23] WERE, AS IMPUGN AND AND
[00:50:28] DENIGRATED AND BANISHED AS THEY
[00:50:30] WERE, NEVERTHELESS, THEY WERE
[00:50:33] PART OF A SYSTEM THAT WAS TAKING
[00:50:35] LAND FROM NATIVE PEOPLES AND WE
[00:50:38] HAVE TO KEEP THAT IN MIND ALWAYS.
[00:50:40] I THINK EVEN IF WE SEE A TREATY
[00:50:44] AS A KIND OF HERO, AS A DEFIANT WOMAN, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE TO HOLD
[00:50:47] ALL OF THESE THINGS TOGETHER. AND I THINK THAT'S FINE. I MEAN, THAT'S HISTORY.
[00:50:51] IT'S COMPLICATED. PEOPLE ARE COMPLICATED AND THEY CAN HAVE MULTIPLE, MULTIPLE
[00:50:55] IDENTITIES AND ROLES. SO IT WAS, YOU KNOW, WE MIGHT
[00:50:59] SAY, CONTENTIOUS AT BEST.
[00:51:02] IT WAS SIMILAR TO OTHER COLONISTS RELATIONSHIP TO THE
[00:51:05] LAND, BUT THEY WERE NOT TRAITORS IN ANY GREAT EXTENT.
[00:51:08] THEY WEREN'T VERY INVOLVED IN
[00:51:09] THE FUR TRADE AS FAR AS WE KNOW.
[00:51:14] THERE'S ONE INSTANCE OF ANTHONY
[00:51:16] AND KURITA BEING INVOLVED WITH
[00:51:20] ONE OF THE ENSLAVED AFRICANS IN THE COLONY.
[00:51:22] AND AGAIN, THIS IS ONE OF THE DISPUTES THAT COMES TO A COURT.
[00:51:28] ANTHONY AND FREITAS DOG IS
[00:51:31] ACCUSED BY A MAN CONFUSINGLY KNOWN AS ANTHONY OF THE
[00:51:35] PORTUGUESE, IS AN ENSLAVED MAN.
[00:51:37] ANTHONY THE TURKS DOG, IS
[00:51:39] ACCUSED OF KILLING ANTHONY OF THE PORTUGUESE IS HOG.
[00:51:43] AND SO THIS CASE COMES TO COURT
[00:51:45] AND THIS IS AN EXAMPLE OF ANTHONY, THE PORTUGUESE, THE
[00:51:48] ENSLAVED PERSON WINNING IN COURT
[00:51:50] AGAINST ANTHONY.
[00:51:53] DO YOU CONSIDER THEM TO BE THE FIRST TO ACHIEVE THE AMERICAN
[00:51:59] DREAM. SO, YOU KNOW, FOUNDING IS IN THE SUBTITLE OF THE BOOK.
[00:52:03] SO PERHAPS A LITTLE CHEEKILY, BUT I DO WANT TO MAKE A CLAIM
[00:52:07] THAT MAYBE NOT AMERICA AS A WHOLE, BUT IF WE'RE THINKING
[00:52:12] ABOUT, YOU KNOW, THE PLACE THAT BECOMES THE FIVE BOROUGHS, NEW
[00:52:15] YORK CITY, ANTHONY AND RICHARD,
[00:52:19] DO YOU HAVE A CLAIM OF BEING ONE OF THE FOUNDING FAMILIES OF NEW
[00:52:22] YORK CITY? SURE. AND, YOU KNOW, THIS QUESTION OF
[00:52:27] ISLAM AND OF BEING MUSLIM. YEAH. AND WE NOW HAVE A MUSLIM MAYOR.
[00:52:30] WE DO BRING US THAT. HOW DOES THAT CARRY FORWARD? YEAH, I'M IN PERFECT, PERFECT
[00:52:35] TIMING FOR MY BOOK.
[00:52:37] I'VE BEEN WORKING ON THIS BOOK FOR ABOUT A DECADE, SO I HAD NO
[00:52:40] WAY OF KNOWING THAT THIS IS THE CASE. BUT, YOU KNOW, THERE ARE THERE
[00:52:44] ARE SOME ECHOES. I DON'T WANT TO DRAW TOO FIRM A LINE BETWEEN THE 17TH CENTURY
[00:52:48] AND AND TODAY THERE'S OBVIOUSLY
[00:52:50] THE IMMIGRANT STORY OF MAYOR
[00:52:53] MAMDANI AND ANTHONY AND RITA OF
[00:52:57] OF SORT OF WE MIGHT CALL THEM
[00:53:00] NEW KINDS OF IMMIGRANTS OR.
[00:53:03] IMMIGRANTS THAT THE THE STORY OF
[00:53:08] AMERICA HAS YET TO FULLY METABOLIZE. I THINK IN A CERTAIN KIND OF WAY.
[00:53:11] SO I'M INTERESTED IN ANTHONY IS WRITTEN THAT WAY ALSO RIGHT THAT
[00:53:15] THEY'RE NOT WHOLLY EUROPEAN.
[00:53:19] THEY'RE NOT ENSLAVED AFRICANS AND THEY'RE NOT NATIVE PEOPLES. RIGHT.
[00:53:23] THERE'S THERE'S SOMEHOW IN A KIND OF DIFFERENT CATEGORY, DIFFERENT FROM WHAT WE USUALLY
[00:53:27] THINK ABOUT IN COLONIAL AMERICA, ENSLAVED AFRICANS, NATIVE
[00:53:32] PEOPLES AND EUROPEANS. YEAH.
[00:53:34] SO WE MIGHT SAY, YOU KNOW, MAYOR
[00:53:36] MAMDANI SORT OF REPRESENTS NEW
[00:53:39] ISH IMMIGRANTS TO NEW YORK CITY,
[00:53:42] SOUTH ASIANS, AIR AFRICANS, WHO
[00:53:47] ARE THE LATEST GROUP TO KIND OF
[00:53:49] BECOME FULLY METABOLIZED IN A
[00:53:52] WAY THAT ITALIANS AND IRISH AND
[00:53:54] -- WERE IN THERE IN THE EARLY 20TH CENTURY.
[00:53:57] SO, YOU KNOW, HE'S LIKE LAGUARDIA IN THAT SENSE.
[00:53:59] SO IT'S THIS IS A STORY THAT PLAYS OUT OVER. YEAH, YEAH.
[00:54:02] AND THEY WERE ARGUABLY THE FIRST. THEY WERE ARGUABLY THE FIRST.
[00:54:06] THERE'S ALSO WE MIGHT THINK IN THE WAY THAT I WAS SPEAKING
[00:54:09] ABOUT WE WERE SPEAKING ABOUT THE KIND OF, YOU KNOW, TOLERATION
[00:54:13] FOR AND AGAINST, YOU KNOW, MAYOR MAMDANI ALSO HAS THAT KIND OF
[00:54:17] SIMILAR DYNAMIC. WE COULD SEE HIM AS A SYMBOL OF HOW FAR NEW YORK CITY HAS COME.
[00:54:22] RIGHT. AS A WELCOMING PLACE, AS A DIVERSE PLACE, AS A PLACE WHERE
[00:54:25] ANYONE BASED ON THEIR ABILITIES CAN MAKE IT.
[00:54:29] AND WE COULD ALSO SAY THAT, YOU KNOW, HE'S BEEN SUBJECT TO ALL
[00:54:31] KINDS OF WHILE, YOU KNOW,
[00:54:35] RACIST, ANTI MUSLIM RHETORIC IN
[00:54:37] THE CAMPAIGN AND SENSE.
[00:54:40] AND SO THAT SHOWS US KIND OF, YOU KNOW, HOW MUCH WORK WE HAVE YET TO DO.
[00:54:44] YEAH, THIS IS A DIFFERENT KIND OF QUESTION. AND I WOULD IMAGINE THAT THERE
[00:54:47] ARE A NUMBER OF PEOPLE HERE WHO ARE INTERESTED IN THIS. COULD YOU DISCUSS GENEALOGICAL
[00:54:51] VERSUS HISTORIC RESEARCH?
[00:54:54] YEAH, THAT'S A GREAT THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION.
[00:54:58] I DIPPED INTO GENIUS OLOGY IN
[00:55:01] THIS WORK AND ACTUALLY WORKED
[00:55:03] WITH A VERY EXCELLENT
[00:55:06] GENEALOGIST IN THE NETHERLANDS WHO HELPED ME WITH SOME OF THE
[00:55:10] RESEARCH. SO YOU KNOW, I DON'T DO ANY SORT
[00:55:13] OF DNA, DNA ANALYSIS OF, OF
[00:55:16] DESCENDANTS AS PART OF THE RESEARCH FOR THIS BOOK.
[00:55:20] I'M INTERESTED IN THAT. I THINK THERE ARE, AS WITH ANY
[00:55:25] SOURCE MATERIAL, THERE ARE PROBLEMS WITH WITH WITH THAT AS
[00:55:27] THERE ARE WITH WRITTEN DOCUMENTS.
[00:55:30] SO I DIDN'T GO DOWN THAT THAT
[00:55:33] ROUTE TOO DEEPLY. BUT GENEALOGY IS IS VERY, VERY
[00:55:37] IMPORTANT FOR TELLING THIS STORY. SO I'M INTERESTED IN HOW
[00:55:42] DESCENDANTS WILL REACT TO THIS BOOK. AND I'VE ACTUALLY BEEN IN TOUCH
[00:55:46] WITH WITH SEVERAL OF THEM BEFORE THE BOOK WAS PUBLISHED AND SINCE
[00:55:50] ACTUALLY SO I THINK HISTORY AND
[00:55:53] GENEALOGY ARE OUR COUSINS AND AS
[00:55:57] A CARD CARRYING HISTORIAN, I
[00:56:00] STAND TO LEARN A LOT FROM GENEALOGY. AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, VICE VERSA.
[00:56:05] HMM. YOU YOU CAN GET OUT OF THIS BY
[00:56:09] SAYING YOU ALREADY ANSWERED IT. OKAY, BUT DO YOU SEE REMNANTS OF
[00:56:13] THIS ANTI-MUSLIM SENTIMENT IN CURRENT NEW YORK?
[00:56:17] YEAH, I MEAN, I DID IN SOME WAYS ANSWER THAT.
[00:56:20] BUT BUT BUT I DO THINK THAT THAT
[00:56:23] IS A LINE THAT WE CAN DRAW FROM
[00:56:25] FROM THIS PERIOD, FROM THE FIRST
[00:56:28] HALF OF THE 17TH CENTURY THROUGH TO TO TODAY.
[00:56:33] NOT A STRAIGHT LINE ZIGZAGS
[00:56:35] DIFFERENT IN DIFFERENT PERIODS, BUT THERE IS A STORY TO BE TOLD.
[00:56:39] THERE FROM ANTHONY'S PERIOD TO TODAY. YEAH.
[00:56:43] AND THE NOTION PUT THEM CAN YOU
[00:56:46] PUT THEM IN THE NOTION, CAN YOU
[00:56:48] PUT THEM IN THE CONTEXT OF THE
[00:56:50] DUTCH COLONY AS A WHOLE AND WHAT
[00:56:54] EITHER IN MYTH OR IN TRUTH, WHAT
[00:56:56] IT THE PLACE THAT IT SERVES AS A
[00:57:01] SPRINGBOARD FOR NEW YORK? YEAH.
[00:57:05] I MEAN, I THINK YOU KNOW IT SO
[00:57:09] IT IS THE CASE THAT NEW NETHERLAND WAS A PLACE OF
[00:57:14] DIVERSITY, RIGHT? A PLACE WHERE YOU HAD PEOPLE
[00:57:17] COMING FROM DIFFERENT PARTS OF EUROPE.
[00:57:20] YOU HAD ENSLAVED AFRICANS, YOU HAVE NATIVE PEOPLES, YOU HAVE
[00:57:22] PEOPLE LIKE ANTHONY, A CREATURE. SO IT WAS DIVERSE.
[00:57:26] IT WAS MULTIRELIGIOUS WITH ALL ITS PROBLEMS, RIGHT?
[00:57:28] -- ARRIVE IN 1654 FROM BRAZIL,
[00:57:32] QUAKERS, AS YOU MENTIONED. RIGHT? SO WE HAVE RELIGIOUS DIVERSITY.
[00:57:36] IT IS A KIND OF PROTO CAPITALIST
[00:57:40] PLACE IN THE WAY THAT THE DUTCH
[00:57:43] COMPANY SYSTEM WAS.
[00:57:45] SO THERE ARE ALL THOSE THREADS
[00:57:48] PRESENT THERE IN NEW AMSTERDAM
[00:57:53] BEFORE IT BECOMES NEW YORK CITY. AND AS A PART OF THAT IS THE
[00:57:57] STORY OF THE COUPLE, RIGHT, THAT
[00:57:59] THEY ARE AN OPPORTUNITY TO THINK
[00:58:03] ABOUT THE FOUNDING OF NEW YORK CITY IN A WAY THAT THAT, YOU
[00:58:06] KNOW, ENGAGES WITH THAT STORY OF
[00:58:08] DIVERSITY, BUT ALSO CHALLENGES IT IN SOME KINDS OF WAYS AND
[00:58:11] ALSO GIVES US A KIND OF VIEW FROM THE EDGE, RIGHT?
[00:58:15] BOTH THE ACTUAL EDGE FROM
[00:58:18] GRAVESEND AND THE KIND OF, YOU
[00:58:20] KNOW, ETHNIC, RELIGIOUS, MORAL
[00:58:22] EDGE OF THE COLONY. AND I THINK HELPS US TO THINK
[00:58:26] ABOUT NEW YORK, NOT JUST AS A
[00:58:28] PLACE OF CAPITALISTS AND OF
[00:58:31] CHRISTIANS AND OF, YOU KNOW, DUTCH REFORMED INSTITUTIONS AND
[00:58:35] OF THE LAW, BUT ALSO A PLACE OF
[00:58:38] THESE KIND OF RABBLE ROUSERS AND
[00:58:41] AND KIND OF OTHER FIGURES THAT
[00:58:43] WE DON'T USUALLY THINK ABOUT WHEN WE THINK ABOUT THE HISTORY OF NEW YORK.
[00:58:47] THE AUTHOR IS ALAN MCHALE, THE
[00:58:49] BOOK A REALLY TERRIFIC BOOK IS
[00:58:51] CALLED NEWCOMERS THE STORY OF ANTHONY AND CREATURE AND THE
[00:58:55] FOUNDING OF NEW YORK. THANK YOU. THANK YOU, RUSSELL.
[00:58:57] THANK YOU ALL.
[00:59:02] THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH FOR JOINING US TONIGHT.
[00:59:06] I'M GOING TO ASK YOU FOR ONE MORE ROUND OF APPLAUSE FOR OUR FABULOUS MODERATOR, RUSSELL
[00:59:12] MACHADO.
[00:59:16] HERE'S A PORTION OF A RECENT PROGRAM ON BOOK TV.
[00:59:19] THE THING TO REMEMBER ABOUT ANY REGIME, PARTICULARLY WHEN IT'S
[00:59:22] GOT MILITARY AND POLICE FORCES, THEY BECOME TARGETS.
[00:59:26] THEY BECOME NATURAL TARGETS. THEY ARE ALSO FATHERS.
[00:59:29] THEY ARE BROTHERS. THEY ARE SISTERS.
[00:59:32] AND SO EVERY TIME YOU TARGET WHAT YOU THINK IS A LEGITIMATE
[00:59:35] TARGET AND IT IS YOU'RE ALSO
[00:59:38] TARGETING PART OF THE POPULATION.
[00:59:41] AND THE REALITY IS, THESE WARS BECOME VERY PERSONAL.
[00:59:45] YOU START A WAR FOR POLITICAL REASONS.
[00:59:47] AND THEN PRETTY SOON SOMEBODY
[00:59:50] KILLS YOUR COMRADE OR SOMEONE IN YOUR FAMILY. AND IT GETS A DIFFERENT
[00:59:55] INTENSITY FOR YOU. AND I THINK THAT HAPPENS WITH SOCIETIES AS WELL.
[01:00:00] SO WHEN WE BEGIN AND WE THINK THAT SADDAM HUSSEIN WAS A BAD
[01:00:04] GUY AND PEOPLE DIDN'T LIKE HIM, SO WE TOPPLED THE SADDAM HUSSEIN
[01:00:07] REGIME AND WE THOUGHT THAT AUTOMATICALLY THAT THAT WOULD BE
[01:00:11] POPULAR BECAUSE PEOPLE WOULD BE LIBERATED.
[01:00:14] WELL, WHAT HAPPENED WAS MANY OF THEM LOST THEIR POSITIONS. SOME WAY DOWN IN THE GOVERNMENT,
[01:00:18] THEY LOST THEIR PENSIONS. THE ELECTRICITY WENT OUT WITHIN
[01:00:23] WEEKS. THE LIBERATORS THAT WE THOUGHT
[01:00:25] WE WERE WERE PERCEIVED AS
[01:00:29] FOREIGN OCCUPIERS.
[01:00:31] AND PEOPLE WHO PROBABLY DIDN'T LIKE SADDAM.
[01:00:34] SO SADDAM HUSSEIN AT ALL WERE PICKING UP ROCKET PROPELLED
[01:00:38] GRENADES AND SHOOTING AT AMERICANS.
[01:00:41] AND THEN AS YOU STARTED THE VIOLENCE BETWEEN THAT, IT GETS
[01:00:45] ITS OWN MOMENTUM. SO THAT'S WHAT GETS SO
[01:00:49] COMPLICATED. IT'S AT THE END OF THE DAY, A NATION IS THE FABRIC OF THE PEOPLE.
[01:00:53] IT'S NOT A THING ON A MAP AND IT'S NOT A SYMBOL OF A GOVERNMENT.
[01:00:57] YOU CAN WATCH THE REST OF THIS