CSPAN3 — Donn Mitchell Eleanor Roosevelts Nightly Prayer
20260829 174300 UTC
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[00:00:00] GOVERNMENT IN ACTION.
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[00:01:11] STARTING NOW, WE VISIT HYDE PARK IN NEW YORK FOR THE ROOSEVELT
[00:01:14] READING FESTIVAL. YOU'LL LEARN ABOUT HOLLYWOOD'S
[00:01:17] ROLE IN WORLD WAR TWO. FDR MENTORS AND THE RELATIONSHIPS BETWEEN AMERICAN
[00:01:22] PRESIDENTS AND THE DALAI LAMA. UP FIRST, A CONVERSATION ON
[00:01:26] ELEANOR ROOSEVELT'S CHRISTIAN FAITH.
[00:01:29] WELL, GOOD AFTERNOON, EVERYONE,
[00:01:32] AND WELCOME TO THE ANNUAL ROOSEVELT READING FESTIVAL.
[00:01:35] MY NAME IS JEFF URBAN. I AM THE EDUCATION DIRECTOR HERE
[00:01:39] AT THE ROOSEVELT PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY MUSEUM.
[00:01:41] ON BEHALF OF THE ENTIRE LIBRARY STAFF AND OUR OUR DIRECTOR, BILL
[00:01:45] HARRIS, WELCOME. THIS IS OUR ANNUAL READING
[00:01:51] FESTIVAL. AND FDR PLANNED FOR THE LIBRARY
[00:01:53] TO BE THE PREMIER RESEARCH INSTITUTION FOR STUDYING THE
[00:01:57] ENTIRE ROOSEVELT ERA. AND WHEN WE TALK ABOUT ROOSEVELT
[00:02:02] AROUND HERE, WE TALK ABOUT FRANKLIN AND ELEANOR IN THE
[00:02:04] ROOSEVELT ERA.
[00:02:06] AND TODAY'S AUTHORS REFLECT THE
[00:02:09] WIDE VARIETY OF RESEARCH DONE
[00:02:11] HERE AND AT SIMILAR INSTITUTIONS
[00:02:13] THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY. SO LET ME JUST QUICKLY GO OVER
[00:02:17] THE FORMAT. WE ARE GOING TO HAVE OUR SPEAKER
[00:02:21] TALK FOR ABOUT 30 OR 40 MINUTES OR SO. AND THEN IT'S GOING TO BE
[00:02:25] FOLLOWED BY ABOUT A TEN MINUTE QUESTION AND ANSWER PERIOD. SO I WANT TO WELCOME OUR FRIENDS
[00:02:30] FROM FROM C-SPAN. AND THEY'RE GOING TO BE INTERESTED IN HEARING THE
[00:02:33] QUESTIONS THAT YOU ASK. SO PLEASE, BEFORE YOU ASK YOUR QUESTION, COME TO THE MICROPHONE
[00:02:37] SO THAT WE CAN GET IT. YOU KNOW, BROADCAST AND COLLECT IT.
[00:02:42] THERE. THE AUTHORS WILL THEN MOVE TO
[00:02:45] THEIR TABLES DOWN BY THE NEW DEAL STORE, WHERE YOU CAN HAVE
[00:02:48] YOUR BOOK, HOW YOU CAN PURCHASE A BOOK AND HAVE IT SIGNED.
[00:02:51] PLEASE ALLOW THE AUTHORS TO TO
[00:02:54] WORK THEIR WAY DOWN THE HALLWAY.
[00:02:56] VERY OFTEN THE PEOPLE KIND OF, YOU KNOW, JUMP ON AT THE DOOR
[00:03:00] HERE AND THEY DON'T GET A CHANCE TO GET DOWN TO WHERE THEY NEED
[00:03:02] TO GET TO.
[00:03:06] SO, AGAIN, WE'RE JUST DELIGHTED TO HAVE YOU ALL HERE.
[00:03:08] AND OUR FRIENDS FROM C-SPAN.
[00:03:11] SO I'D LIKE TO INTRODUCE DON
[00:03:13] MITCHELL, WHO TEACHES AT FORDHAM UNIVERSITY.
[00:03:17] AND I JUST WAS TALKING WITH HIM. I MY SON JUST GRADUATED FROM
[00:03:19] FORDHAM ABOUT A YEAR OR SO AGO,
[00:03:21] AND HE HAS PREVIOUSLY TAUGHT AT THE GENERAL THEOLOGICAL
[00:03:25] SEMINARY, PRINCETON THEOLOGICAL
[00:03:28] SEMINARY AND MANHATTAN COLLEGE. HE BEGAN HIS CAREER AS A
[00:03:32] NEWSPAPER REPORTER, LATER BECOMING A PUBLIC INTEREST
[00:03:35] ADVOCATE ON BEHALF OF CLEAN
[00:03:37] WATER, GAY RIGHTS AND ECONOMIC JUSTICE.
[00:03:41] MR. MITCHELL IS THE AUTHOR OF ELEANOR ROOSEVELT'S NIGHTLY
[00:03:43] PRAYER, A RELIGIOUS LIFE OF THE
[00:03:46] FIRST LADY OF THE WORLD AND
[00:03:48] TREAD THE CITY STREETS AGAIN. FRANCES PERKINS SHARES HER
[00:03:52] THEOLOGY, WHICH I JUST FINISHED READING. IT'S WONDERFUL.
[00:03:55] AND HE HAS CONTRIBUTED TO A
[00:03:57] PROMISE TO ALL GENERATIONS EDITED BY KIERSTEN DOWNEY AND
[00:04:01] CHRISTOPHER BRISSETTE AS WELL AS
[00:04:03] REBUILDING COMMUNION. WHO PAYS THE PRICE?
[00:04:07] ADDED IT BY PETER FRANCIS.
[00:04:09] HIS WORK HAS APPEARED IN THE CHRISTIAN CENTURY.
[00:04:13] THE LIVING CHURCH, THE ANGLICAN THEOLOGICAL REVIEW.
[00:04:16] HE IS A GRADUATE OF THE GENERAL THEOLOGICAL SEMINARY OF THE
[00:04:20] EPISCOPAL CHURCH AND SERVES AS
[00:04:22] VICE PRESIDENT OF THE PRINCETON RESEARCH FORUM.
[00:04:25] HE LIVES IN PRINCETON, NEW YORK, BUT HE'S HERE WITH US TODAY.
[00:04:28] PLEASE WELCOME DON MITCHELL.
[00:04:39] THANK YOU, JEFF, AND THANK YOU
[00:04:41] TO ALL OF YOU FOR COMING TODAY. AND JUST THANK YOU TO FDR FOR
[00:04:45] HAVING THE VISION TO CREATE THIS
[00:04:49] LIBRARY. I BEGAN MY RESEARCH MANY YEARS
[00:04:52] AGO WHEN THIS CENTER WASN'T EVEN
[00:04:54] HERE, AND IT WAS MY FIRST TIME
[00:04:58] IN A PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY. AND IT WAS PRETTY IMPRESSIVE,
[00:05:02] VERY GRATEFUL THAT THAT IT'S HERE.
[00:05:04] SO THE THE THING THAT USUALLY
[00:05:07] HAPPENS WHEN I MENTION THAT I'VE WRITTEN A BOOK ABOUT ELEANOR
[00:05:11] ROOSEVELT'S RELIGIOUS LIFE IS
[00:05:13] PEOPLE SAY, I DIDN'T REALIZE SHE WAS RELIGIOUS.
[00:05:17] AND THE OTHER THING THAT THEY USUALLY SAY IS, WOULDN'T YOU
[00:05:19] RATHER TALK ABOUT SPIRITUAL QUALITY RATHER THAN RELIGION?
[00:05:23] AND THE ANSWER IS YES. SHE WAS RELIGIOUS AND NO, I
[00:05:26] DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT SPIRITUALITY BECAUSE DISCUSSIONS
[00:05:30] OF SPIRITUALITY MISS THE
[00:05:32] COMMUNAL DEMAND OF RELIGION.
[00:05:34] AND THAT I THINK, IS VERY
[00:05:36] IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTANDING.
[00:05:39] ELEANOR ROOSEVELT IS THAT SHE
[00:05:40] CERTAINLY WAS A GREAT PERSON,
[00:05:43] BUT SHE WAS EDUCATED AND NURTURED AND FORMED IN
[00:05:49] CONSCIENCE. AND HER SENSE OF DUTY TO THE
[00:05:52] COMMUNITY BY A SPECIFIC RELIGIOUS COMMUNITY.
[00:05:55] AND SO I WANT TO TELL YOU A
[00:05:57] LITTLE BIT ABOUT ELEANOR'S
[00:06:00] ORIGINS IN HER HER NATIVE CHURCH AND THEN ALSO TELL YOU A LITTLE
[00:06:04] BIT MORE ABOUT THE CHURCH AND
[00:06:06] WHAT IT STOOD FOR IN THE EARLY 20TH CENTURY.
[00:06:10] IN FACT, WHAT IT STILL STANDS FOR TODAY. BUT I THINK IT WAS VERY IT WAS
[00:06:14] VERY SIGNIFICANT. THE OTHER THING THAT I ENCOUNTER
[00:06:18] IN THE LITERATURE IS BIOGRAPHERS
[00:06:22] WHO SAY EITHER THAT SHE WAS NOT
[00:06:24] VERY RELIGIOUS OR THAT SHE OVERCAME A NARROW RELIGIOUS
[00:06:29] UPBRINGING. AND BOTH OF THOSE
[00:06:32] CHARACTERIZATIONS ARE INCORRECT.
[00:06:34] THERE WAS NOTHING NARROW ABOUT HER UPBRINGING.
[00:06:38] SHE WAS BAPTIZED AT CALVARY
[00:06:40] EPISCOPAL CHURCH IMMEDIATELY AFTER BIRTH IN 1884.
[00:06:45] THIS IS A CHURCH ON PARK AVENUE IN NEW YORK CITY.
[00:06:48] AND THE PRIEST WHO BAPTIZED HER
[00:06:50] WAS HENRY SATTERLEE, WHO LATER
[00:06:55] BECAME THE BISHOP OF WASHINGTON. AND I'LL TELL YOU A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT WHY THAT'S
[00:06:58] SIGNIFICANT IN A MINUTE.
[00:06:59] BUT HER GODFATHER WAS HER
[00:07:02] FATHER'S ELDER BROTHER, THEODORE
[00:07:04] ROOSEVELT, JR, WHO WE ALL KNOW
[00:07:07] AS TEDDY.
[00:07:08] SO SHE HAD CERTAINLY A VERY
[00:07:13] SOPHISTICATED KIND OF COMPANY AT HER BAPTISM.
[00:07:17] SHE THEN WAS WAS RAISED IN THIS CHURCH.
[00:07:20] NOW, HENRY YATES SATTERLEE WAS A
[00:07:22] PROMINENT CLERGYMAN, AND HE WAS
[00:07:26] AN AUTHOR, A PUBLISHED AUTHOR. AND ONE OF THE THINGS HE WROTE
[00:07:30] WAS THE SUNDAY SCHOOL CURRICULUM. AND THAT'S VERY HELPFUL BECAUSE
[00:07:33] IF YOU LOOK AT HIS SERMONS, YOU
[00:07:35] CAN SEE A LOT OF THE INFLUENCES
[00:07:39] THAT MIGHT HAVE AFFECTED ELEANOR ROOSEVELT.
[00:07:42] HOWEVER, SHE PROBABLY DIDN'T HEAR THOSE SERMONS. SHE'S A LITTLE GIRL.
[00:07:45] SHE'S IN SUNDAY SCHOOL. BUT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT SATTERLEE DID IS HE WROTE A
[00:07:49] SUNDAY SCHOOL CURRICULUM AND IT SURVIVES.
[00:07:52] IT'S BEEN PRESERVED BY PROJECT
[00:07:55] CANTERBURY, WHICH IS A WONDERFUL COLLABORATION OF VOLUNTEERS WHO
[00:07:59] PRESERVE A LOT OF ORIGINAL
[00:08:02] DOCUMENTS IN CHURCH HISTORY, NOT JUST THE EPISCOPAL CHURCH, BUT
[00:08:05] THE ANGLICAN COMMUNION, WHICH IS THE WIDER FELLOWSHIP OF CHURCHES
[00:08:09] THAT DESCEND FROM THE CHURCH OF ENGLAND. ONE OF SATURDAY.
[00:08:12] LEE'S EMPHASES, AND IN FACT IT
[00:08:15] WAS A MAJOR EMPHASIS, WAS THAT
[00:08:17] THE VOCATION OF THE CHRISTIAN, THE CALLING OF THE CHRISTIAN, IS
[00:08:21] TO SERVE THE COMMUNITY.
[00:08:23] AND IF WE KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT ELEANOR ROOSEVELT, WE KNOW THAT
[00:08:26] SHE CERTAINLY LIVED OUT THAT VOCATION.
[00:08:31] NOW, SOME PEOPLE WOULD SAY, WELL, YOU KNOW, THAT'S NICE THAT
[00:08:34] HE THOUGHT THAT WAY, BUT THAT DOESN'T TELL US A LOT ABOUT THE
[00:08:38] MILIEU OR THE ENVIRONMENT THAT SHE SHE WAS IN.
[00:08:41] IT TELLS US SOMETHING ABOUT THE
[00:08:43] THE PHILOSOPHER FICKLE DISPOSITION, PERHAPS.
[00:08:47] BUT CALVARY CHURCH WAS VERY INTERESTING BECAUSE IT WAS A
[00:08:50] LEADER IN WHAT WE CALL SOCIAL MISSION.
[00:08:54] SO IT OPERATED HOMELESS SHELTER.
[00:08:57] IT HAD A WORKING MEN'S CLUB THAT
[00:09:00] HAD 300 MEMBERS AND A DAYCARE CENTER FOR WORKING MOTHERS.
[00:09:05] IT HAD RECREATIONAL FACILITIES FOR YOUTH.
[00:09:07] IT HAD ALL KINDS OF OF SOCIAL
[00:09:11] PROGRAMS. SO MANY, IN FACT, THAT THEY HAD TO BUILD A SEPARATE BUILDING
[00:09:15] CALLED THE MISSIONS HOUSE, WHICH
[00:09:17] WAS LARGE ENOUGH THAT WHEN THE EPISCOPAL CHURCH DEVELOPED ITS
[00:09:21] NATIONAL HEADQUARTERS, THEY MOVED INTO CALVARY'S MISSION HOUSE. AND THAT WAS THE FIRST NATIONAL
[00:09:26] HEADQUARTERS OF THE THE EPISCOPAL CHURCH.
[00:09:30] NOW, AGAIN, YOU MIGHT SAY, WELL, SHE WAS A LITTLE GIRL, SO SHE
[00:09:32] DIDN'T REALLY PERHAPS KNOW ALL THAT MUCH ABOUT IT.
[00:09:35] WELL, SHE DID, BECAUSE HER
[00:09:37] FAMILY WAS VERY INVOLVED IN IT.
[00:09:39] AND SHE RECOLLECTED A SITUATION
[00:09:42] WHERE HER FATHER TOOK HER TO
[00:09:46] VOLUNTEER IN A HOMELESS SHELTER
[00:09:48] FOR NEWSPAPER BOYS WHEN SHE WAS SIX YEARS OLD.
[00:09:51] SHE HELPED HER FATHER SERVE A THANKSGIVING DINNER, AND HER
[00:09:54] FATHER EXPLAINED TO HER WHY THIS SHELTER EXISTED.
[00:09:58] NEWSPAPER BOYS EARN THEIR OWN LIVING, BUT IT WAS NOT ENOUGH
[00:10:02] MONEY TO HAVE SHELTER IN NEW YORK CITY. EVEN IN THOSE DAYS WHEN RENTS
[00:10:05] WERE A LITTLE BIT CHEAPER. BUT PROPORTIONALLY, MAYBE NOT.
[00:10:09] NOT SO MUCH. SO ELEANOR'S GRANDFATHER,
[00:10:13] THEODORE ROOSEVELT SENIOR, HAD
[00:10:15] FORMED A SHELTER FOR THE NEWSIES
[00:10:17] AFTER THEY HAD A PLACE TO LIVE,
[00:10:20] AND THEY HAD HAD SOME OPPORTUNE
[00:10:24] RETREAT TO REST AND RELAX. THEY ALSO ORGANIZED A UNION AND THEY WENT ON STRIKE AND THEY
[00:10:28] BROUGHT JOSEPH PULITZER TO HIS KNEES.
[00:10:32] SO THE THING IS THAT ELEANOR HAD THAT KIND OF THING IN HER BACKGROUND.
[00:10:35] HER AUNTS AND UNCLES TOOK HER TO SING CHRISTMAS CAROLS IN A
[00:10:39] HOMELESS SHELTER IN HELL'S KITCHEN. SAME THING.
[00:10:41] THE BOWERY MISSION, THAT SORT OF THING.
[00:10:44] AND SHE SHE WROTE ABOUT IT. SHE SAID THERE WAS NEVER REALLY
[00:10:47] A POINT IN HER LIFE WHERE SHE DID NOT KNOW THAT THERE WERE
[00:10:51] PEOPLE LESS FORTUNATE THAN SHE
[00:10:53] WAS VERY CLOSE AT HAND. AND IF YOU KNOW SOMETHING ABOUT
[00:10:56] THE GEOGRAPHY OF OF NEW YORK
[00:10:59] CITY GEOGRAPHY AND MANHATTAN,
[00:11:01] ELEANOR GREW UP IN MURRAY HILL,
[00:11:03] WHICH IS WALKING DISTANCE FROM HELL'S KITCHEN.
[00:11:06] SO THE THE NEED THAT SHE WAS
[00:11:09] AWARE OF WAS VERY CLOSE IN HAND.
[00:11:11] AND HER FAMILY WAS VERY INVOLVED
[00:11:13] IN VARIOUS EFFORTS TO TO TRY TO MEET THAT NEED.
[00:11:18] NOW, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT HAPPENED AND THIS IS WHERE I
[00:11:21] THINK THE HISTORIANS ARE CORRECT
[00:11:23] WHEN THEY SAY SHE HAD SOMETHING TO OVERCOME.
[00:11:25] IT WASN'T REALLY HER RELIGIOUS HERITAGE THAT SHE HAD TO
[00:11:29] OVERCOME. SHE HAD TO OVERCOME THIS TRAGIC
[00:11:33] LOSS OF HER PARENTS AT A VERY YOUNG, YOUNG AGE.
[00:11:35] AND THE LOSS OF A YOUNGER BROTHER. IT ALL HAPPENED WITHIN THE SPACE
[00:11:40] OF TWO YEARS AT THE AGE OF EIGHT, ELEANOR IS MOTHER DIED
[00:11:43] AND A WHOLE ROOSEVELT DIED.
[00:11:47] AND WE HAVE DIPHTHERIA.
[00:11:50] AND BY PRIOR RANGE MEANT HER
[00:11:54] GRANDMOTHER HULL, TOOK CUSTODY OF HER AND HER TWO YOUNGER
[00:11:57] BROTHERS. AND IN ABOUT 18 MONTHS, THE
[00:12:01] MIDDLE CHILD ALSO DIED.
[00:12:03] HISTORIANS DISAGREE OVER WHETHER IT WAS ALSO DIPHTHERIA OR IT
[00:12:07] MIGHT HAVE BEEN TUBERCULOSIS. BUT ANYWAY, IT WAS A TRAUMA.
[00:12:10] AND THEN AT THE END OF THAT SAME
[00:12:14] YEAR, ELEANOR, HIS FATHER DIED. YOU KNOW, ILLNESS FATHER WAS
[00:12:17] ALREADY IN AND OUT OF SANATORIUMS.
[00:12:19] HE WAS HAVING A LOT OF PROBLEMS
[00:12:21] WITH ALCOHOL AND PRESCRIPTION
[00:12:24] DRUG ADDICTION.
[00:12:26] AND HE HAD HAD FROM THE TIME HE
[00:12:28] WAS IN SECONDARY SCHOOL, HE HAD HAD FAINTING SPELLS AND
[00:12:32] SEIZURES, WHICH AS A NON MEDICAL
[00:12:34] PERSON LOOKS TO ME LIKE EPILEPSY.
[00:12:37] I HAD A COUSIN WHO HAD A FORM OF EPILEPSY.
[00:12:41] THEY ACTUALLY CONSIDERED THAT THERE WAS NEVER A DIAGNOSIS OF
[00:12:45] THAT. AND IN FACT, THERE WAS NEVER REALLY A DIAGNOSIS FOR WHAT HIS
[00:12:47] PROBLEM WAS.
[00:12:49] BUT HE HAD THE ROOSEVELT
[00:12:51] PRESCRIPTION FOR AILMENTS, AND IT WAS THE PRESCRIPTION FOR
[00:12:55] TEDDY WHO HAD ASTHMA. AND IT WAS EVERYBODY, YOU KNOW, AS YOU GET OUT AND, YOU KNOW,
[00:12:59] ROUGH IT UP, YOU KNOW, AND YOU GET OUTDOORS AND, YOU KNOW, LIVE THE LIFE, THAT KIND OF THING.
[00:13:04] AND HE HAD DONE THAT. ELLIOT HAD DONE THAT.
[00:13:06] AND IN FACT, WHEN HE WAS
[00:13:08] COURTING ELEANOR, HIS MOTHER, HE
[00:13:10] WAS IN A THEY WERE PLANNING A
[00:13:12] STUNT FOR A RODEO, WHICH WAS A
[00:13:16] AN AMATEUR RODEO IS A CHARITY THING, YOU KNOW, AND HE WAS
[00:13:21] THROWN FROM THE HORSE AND BROKE
[00:13:22] HIS LEG AND IT DIDN'T HEAL
[00:13:25] PROPERLY AND THEY HAD TO BREAK IT AGAIN. AND IT STILL DIDN'T HEAL
[00:13:29] PROPERLY. AND HE WAS IN PHYSICAL PAIN FOR
[00:13:32] THE REST OF HIS LIFE. AND WHAT HE STARTED DOING AND IT
[00:13:36] WAS SOCIALLY ACCEPTABLE IN HIS CIRCLES WAS HE STARTED
[00:13:38] MEDICATING IT WITH ALCOHOL AND THEN EVENTUALLY IT WAS
[00:13:42] PRESCRIPTION MORPHINE. AND PRESCRIPTION LAUDANUM.
[00:13:44] AND HE REALLY BECAME KIND OF A BASKET CASE.
[00:13:48] SO HE WAS IN AND OUT OF ELEANOR,
[00:13:50] HIS LIFE TOWARD HER, HIS HIS
[00:13:54] LAST YEARS. BUT HE WROTE TO HER CONSTANTLY
[00:13:57] AND HE WAS THE ONE MAJOR SOURCE
[00:14:02] OF AFFIRMATION THAT SHE HAD AS A CHILD BECAUSE HE THOUGHT SHE WAS
[00:14:04] JUST THE MOST FASCINATING LITTLE GIRL THAT HAD EVER BEEN BORN.
[00:14:08] AND HE TOOK HER ON ALL KINDS OF ADVENTURES.
[00:14:12] WHEN I SAY SHE DID NOT HAVE TO
[00:14:14] OVERCOME A NARROW UPBRINGING, BY THE TIME SHE WAS EIGHT YEARS OLD, SHE'D BE IN THE EUROPE
[00:14:18] THREE TIMES AND IN FACT, HER
[00:14:21] FATHER HAD TAKEN HER TO SEE THE
[00:14:23] RUINS OF MOUNT VESUVIUS AND HAD
[00:14:26] IMPRESSED ON HER THAT THESE WERE REAL PEOPLE, THAT THIS HAPPENED
[00:14:31] TO. HE TOOK HER ON A GONDOLA RIDE AND SANG IN ITALIAN WITH THE
[00:14:35] GONDOLIERS, THAT SORT OF THING. SO SHE ACTUALLY HAD A FAIRLY
[00:14:39] SOPHISTICATED FIRST EIGHT YEARS OF HER HER CHILDHOOD, BUT HAVING
[00:14:41] TO LIVE WITH HER GRANDMOTHER CHANGED THINGS A LOT.
[00:14:45] AND A LOT OF THE HISTORIAN SAYS SHE HAD A MISERABLE CHILDHOOD.
[00:14:49] I THINK THAT'S TRUE AFTER THE AGE OF EIGHT.
[00:14:52] I THINK BEFOREHAND IT WAS ACTUALLY PRETTY COOL. AT LEAST THAT'S HOW SHE REFLECTS ON IT.
[00:14:57] WHEN SHE WRITES ABOUT IT. BUT THE CHANGE IN HER CHURCH
[00:15:00] LIFE WAS ACTUALLY NOT THAT SIGNIFICANT.
[00:15:04] GRANDMOTHER HALL WAS A MEMBER OF THE CHURCH OF THE INCARNATION ON
[00:15:07] MADISON AVENUE, AND LIKE
[00:15:09] CALVARY, IT ALSO HAD HUGE SOCIAL
[00:15:13] MISSION ACTIVITIES. AND IN FACT, THEY EVEN HIRED A
[00:15:16] DOCTOR AND NURSE AND CREATED A
[00:15:18] MEDICAL CLINIC AND HAD 12,000 PATIENT VISITS.
[00:15:22] EXCUSE ME, 2000 PATIENT VISITS
[00:15:25] IN A SINGLE YEAR. SO AND THAT WAS ALL AT THE
[00:15:29] EXPENSE OF THE OF THE PARISH ON
[00:15:31] THE FAMILY WAS VERY INVOLVED IN
[00:15:34] THIS KIND OF SOCIAL MISSION.
[00:15:36] AND IN FACT, ELEANOR'S FATHER
[00:15:39] WAS ASKED BY TRINITY CHURCH,
[00:15:42] WALL STREET, TO JOIN WITH FDR,
[00:15:45] HIS ELDER BROTHER, JAMES
[00:15:48] ROOSEVELT, WHO WAS HIS ELDER HALF BROTHER. THE TWO MEN WERE FIFTH COUSINS
[00:15:52] AND THEY KNEW EACH OTHER AND JAMES ROOSEVELT, ELLIOTT
[00:15:57] ROOSEVELT WERE ASKED TO FORM AN ORGANIZATION CALLED TRINITY
[00:16:00] CHURCH ASSOCIATES, WHICH
[00:16:02] PROMOTED SOCIAL MISSION AND HELPED PARISHES RAISE THE MONEY
[00:16:05] AND PUT TOGETHER THESE VARIOUS
[00:16:08] PROJECTS. SO IT'S SOMETHING THAT THE FAMILY WAS REALLY VERY, VERY
[00:16:11] COMMITTED TO. AND ELEANOR KIND OF STEPS INTO IT.
[00:16:15] YOU KNOW, IT'S IT'S PART OF HER LIFE. SO HER HER TRANSITION TO THE
[00:16:19] CHURCH OF THE INCARNATION WAS
[00:16:21] NOT REALLY A DIFFERENT KIND OF
[00:16:24] ENVIRONMENT. IT WAS VERY CONSISTENT WITH WHAT
[00:16:27] SHE ALREADY ALREADY KNEW.
[00:16:29] ONE THING THAT WAS IS INTERESTING ABOUT INCARNATION IS
[00:16:33] IT HAD A GREAT DEAL OF ARTISTIC
[00:16:38] ADORNMENT. LOUIS SAN GAUDIN, THE BROTHER OF
[00:16:40] AUGUST, SAN GORDON, HAD SCULPTURE THERE.
[00:16:44] THERE'S STAINED GLASS FROM WILLIAM MORRIS. ALL KINDS OF WONDERFUL THINGS
[00:16:48] THERE. AND I THINK THAT REALLY FED
[00:16:53] ELEANOR'S SOUL IN A LOT OF WAYS.
[00:16:55] THIS THIS VISUAL BEAUTY. AND OF COURSE, ONE OF THE OTHER
[00:16:59] THINGS THAT FED HER SOUL WAS HER LIFE IN THE COUNTRY.
[00:17:02] THE FAMILY HAD AN ESTATE IN
[00:17:05] TIVOLI, AND THAT WAS REALLY A
[00:17:08] BREATH OF FRESH AIR TO BE OUT IN TIVOLI.
[00:17:12] AND SO SHE ENJOYED HER SUMMERS THERE. BUT DURING THE WINTERS SHE WAS
[00:17:15] IN IN MANHATTAN, YOU KNOW, SHE
[00:17:20] EXCUSE ME, SHE DID NOT GO TO SCHOOL. SHE WAS TUTORED.
[00:17:23] AND THAT ALSO, I THINK, WAS PART
[00:17:25] OF HER MISERY DURING HER EARLY
[00:17:27] TEENAGE YEARS BECAUSE ELEANOR
[00:17:29] WAS AN EXTROVERT.
[00:17:32] SHE REALLY LOVED TO BE AROUND PEOPLE.
[00:17:34] AND WITH THE FATHER THAT SHE HAD. I MEAN, THAT WAS REALLY KIND OF
[00:17:38] ENCOURAGED, YOU KNOW, TO BE
[00:17:39] GREGARIOUS AND LIFE OF THE PARTY KIND OF THING.
[00:17:43] AND ELEANOR WAS TUTORED. THERE WERE OTHER GIRLS IN HER
[00:17:46] CLASSES, BUT THEY WERE HANDPICKED BY HER GRANDMOTHER AND BY OTHER PARENTS.
[00:17:50] THAT GRANDMOTHER WHOLE KNEW.
[00:17:53] BUT EVEN SO, SHE WAS REALLY
[00:17:57] DEVELOPING A KIND OF SOCIAL
[00:17:59] CONSCIENCE THAT COMES THROUGH. AND SOME OF THE THINGS THAT SHE
[00:18:04] WROTE DURING THAT PERIOD WHEN SHE WAS ABOUT 12 OR 13 YEARS
[00:18:07] OLD, SHE WROTE THIS ESSAY THAT SURVIVES. AND IN FACT, HER TUTOR, IT
[00:18:11] SUGGESTED IT SHOULD BE PUBLISHED. IT WAS NOT.
[00:18:13] BUT HAPPILY, IT'S IN HER HER PAPERS.
[00:18:16] BUT SHE IT'S A FANTASY.
[00:18:19] AND IF YOU KNOW YOUR BIBLE, YOU CAN ACTUALLY SEE THE SUBTEXT OF
[00:18:23] A BIBLE STORY WHERE THE DISCIPLES ARE ARGUING ABOUT WHO
[00:18:26] IS THE GREATEST AMONG THEM, THAT SORT OF THING.
[00:18:28] BUT THIS IS A FANTASY WHERE SHE'S BEEN TO THE BOTANICAL
[00:18:32] GARDENS AND SHE FALLS ASLEEP AND
[00:18:34] SHE TAKES A NAP IN THE BOTANICAL
[00:18:36] GARDENS AND WHEN SHE WAKES UP SHE HEARS THE FLOWERS TALKING TO
[00:18:40] EACH OTHER AND SAYS SHE DECIDES SHE'S GOING TO PRETEND TO BE
[00:18:45] ASLEEP SO SHE CAN HEAR WHAT THIS CONVERSATION IS.
[00:18:47] AND THE FLOWERS ARE ALL ARGUING ABOUT WHO IS THE MOST BEAUTIFUL
[00:18:51] AMONG THEM. NO ONE HAS THE, YOU KNOW, THE
[00:18:55] MOST BEAUTIFUL PETALS AND THE OTHER ONE HAS THE SWEETEST FAKE FRAGRANCE, ALL THAT SORT OF THING.
[00:18:59] AND FINALLY, THIS ARGUMENT PLAYS ITSELF OUT.
[00:19:01] AND THEN THE VIOLET STEPS IN AND
[00:19:04] SAYS, EACH OF US IS BEAUTIFUL IN
[00:19:06] HER OWN WAY, AND SHE LIFTS UP
[00:19:10] ALL THESE DIFFERENT CHARACTERISTICS AND SAID, WE ARE
[00:19:12] ALL THE MOST BEAUTIFUL.
[00:19:15] AND THE FLOWERS AGREE WITH THE VIOLET AND THEY AGREE.
[00:19:19] THAT'S HOW THEY'RE GOING TO LOOK AT IT. AND SO ELEANOR SAYS, AND SO THE
[00:19:23] CONTROVERSY WAS ENDED. BUT PRIVATELY, I WILL SHARE WITH
[00:19:26] YOU THAT THE VIOLET HAS ALWAYS BEEN MY FAVORITE FLOWER. HMM.
[00:19:30] SO I THINK WE SEE AT THE AGE OF
[00:19:33] 12 OR 13, SOME CONSCIOUSNESS THAT'S ALREADY THERE.
[00:19:37] NOW, WHAT HAPPENED THERE WAS A REAL BREATH OF FRESH AIR IN HER
[00:19:42] LIFE WAS THAT HER MOTHER HAD
[00:19:44] EXPRESSED A DYING WISH THAT ELEANOR WOULD BE SENT ABROAD FOR
[00:19:47] HER EDUCATION. AND.
[00:19:49] AND ANNA AND ELLIOTT ROOSEVELT
[00:19:53] HAD MET MAURICE WHO VESTRY, WHO WAS THE HEAD MISTRESS OF ALLAN'S
[00:19:57] WOULD SCHOOL IN WIMBLEDON. THEY HAD MET HER.
[00:20:00] AND I THINK ELIOT'S YOUNGER
[00:20:03] SISTER HAD ACTUALLY STUDIED WITH HER AT ANOTHER SCHOOL.
[00:20:06] SO THIS WAS SOMEONE WHO WAS KNOWN TO THE FAMILY AND
[00:20:12] GRANDMOTHER. HALL WAS NOT TOO THRILLED WITH THE IDEA OF ELEANOR GOING
[00:20:15] ABROAD, BUT SHE DID AGREE TO IT.
[00:20:18] AND IT WAS A REAL TONIC FOR
[00:20:20] ELEANOR BECAUSE HAVING HAD THIS
[00:20:24] FATHER WHO THOUGHT SHE WAS THE CAT'S MEOW, AND THEN HAVING HAD
[00:20:27] A GRANDMOTHER WHO KEPT HER UNDER A KIND OF LOCK AND KEY WHEN SHE
[00:20:32] GOT TO ALLAN'S WOOD, MAURICE VESTRY JUST THOUGHT SHE REALLY
[00:20:35] HAD REAL TALENT.
[00:20:37] AND SHE ALSO WAS VERY POPULAR WITH THE OTHER GIRLS.
[00:20:40] SO SHE'S IN THAT ENVIRONMENT WHERE SHE CAN BE AN EXTROVERT
[00:20:44] AND BE THE, YOU KNOW, THE
[00:20:47] JOVIAL, RELATIONSHIP LOVING, FRIENDSHIP BUILDING PERSON THAT
[00:20:51] SHE SHE WAS A LOT OF PEOPLE, A
[00:20:54] LOT OF HISTORIANS ATTRIBUTE THE DEVELOPMENT OF HER SOCIAL
[00:20:57] CONSCIENCE TO MAURICE VESTRY, WHO WAS VERY MUCH A SOCIAL
[00:21:01] JUSTICE ADVOCATE.
[00:21:03] SHE WAS ALSO A LESBIAN AND SHE
[00:21:06] WAS AN ATHEIST AND THEY
[00:21:08] ATTRIBUTE THAT TO MAURICE VESTRY.
[00:21:10] I CONTEND THAT IT WAS ALL THERE
[00:21:13] TO BEGIN WITH. AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I
[00:21:15] THINK IS FASCINATING IS THAT AS
[00:21:19] A AS ADORING AS ELEANOR WAS OF
[00:21:21] HER TEACHER AND SHE KEPT A
[00:21:23] PICTURE OF HER ON HER DESK FOR THE REST OF HER LIFE, YOU KNOW,
[00:21:27] VERY SIGNIFICANT INFLUENCE ON HER LIFE.
[00:21:30] SHE ALSO ARGUED WITH HER CONSTANTLY ABOUT HER ATHEIST.
[00:21:34] SHE CHALLENGED IT, YOU KNOW, AND
[00:21:36] MARIE SYLVESTRE WAS THE KIND OF
[00:21:38] PERSON WHO WANTED STUDENTS TO CHALLENGE HER.
[00:21:41] SO SHE REALLY SHE GOT OFF ON IT, TOO. YOU KNOW, THIS THIS DIALOG AND
[00:21:46] ACTUALLY, THEY WENT ON A CHRISTMAS TOUR WHERE ELEANOR
[00:21:49] TOOK HER TO A CATHOLIC CHURCH
[00:21:52] FOR AN ELABORATE, ELABORATE CHRISTMAS EVE MASS.
[00:21:54] AND MAURICE VESTRY WAS ABLE TO
[00:21:56] APPRECIATE IT ESTHETIC. LEA ELEANOR GOT A LITTLE BIT
[00:22:00] MORE OUT OF IT THAN THAN JUST THE ESTHETICS.
[00:22:03] BUT I FIND THAT SO FASCINATING
[00:22:05] IS THAT EVEN AT THAT VERY YOUNG
[00:22:07] AGE AND EVEN HAVING HAD THE
[00:22:09] DIFFICULTIES THAT SHE HAD, SHE
[00:22:12] HAD A LOT OF SELF CONFIDENCE.
[00:22:14] THERE WAS SOME KIND OF BASE SICK
[00:22:16] BELIEF THAT SHE HAD THE
[00:22:19] CAPABILITIES THAT WE ALL KNOW
[00:22:21] SHE DID ALL ULTIMATELY HAVE. NOW, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I
[00:22:26] THINK I HAVE TO ANSWER IN MY BOOK, I SAY SAY, WELL, WHERE DID
[00:22:30] THIS IDEA COME FROM THEN? IF THEY SEE SHE HAD A NARROW,
[00:22:32] DEPRIVED UPBRINGING AND IT REALLY COMES FROM THE FACT THAT
[00:22:36] GRANDMOTHER HALL WAS VERY STRICT
[00:22:39] WITH ELEANOR WOULD NOT LET HER
[00:22:41] HAVE FRIENDS OVER TO THE HOUSE. THAT'S REALLY KIND OF KEPT HER
[00:22:44] ON HER ON A TIGHT LEASH AND AS I
[00:22:47] SAID, EVEN THE KIDS WHO WERE TUTORED WITH HER WERE HANDPICKED
[00:22:52] BY MY GRANDMOTHER.
[00:22:53] HALL IN MY BOOK, I TRY TO
[00:22:56] ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO LOOK A LITTLE MORE KINDLY ON HER.
[00:23:01] AND ONE REVIEWER SAID HE SAID MR. MITCHELL'S ATTEMPT TO
[00:23:05] REHABILITATE GRANDMOTHER HALL IS
[00:23:07] APPALLING AND WELL AT THE RISK OF APPALLING YOU ALL, I'M GOING
[00:23:10] TO TELL YOU WHAT WHAT MY THINKING IS.
[00:23:13] FIRST OF ALL, I THINK AS WITH
[00:23:15] SARAH DELANO ROOSEVELT,
[00:23:17] GRANDMOTHER HALL SUFFERED FROM
[00:23:20] SOME MISOGYNY THAT CREEPS INTO
[00:23:23] THE HISTORIOGRAPHY. BUT THE OLDER IT IS, THE MORE
[00:23:26] LIKELY THEY ARE TO BE HARD ON A WOMAN WHO IS ASSERTIVE.
[00:23:29] SO I THINK THAT'S THEIR BUT I
[00:23:31] LOOK ON GRANDMOTHER HALL WITH A GREAT DEAL OF SYMPATHY, NOT
[00:23:35] SAYING THAT SHE DID EVERYTHING RIGHT, BUT HERE WAS A WOMAN WHO
[00:23:39] WAS A WIDOW. SHE WAS UP IN THE AIR. SHE HAD RAISED SIX CHILDREN TO
[00:23:44] ADULTHOOD. AND THEN HER FIRSTBORN DIES AT THE AGE OF 28.
[00:23:48] AND THEN SHE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR
[00:23:51] THREE SMALL CHILDREN, ONE OF
[00:23:53] WHOM DIES ON HER WATCH.
[00:23:55] AND THEN THE FATHER, WHO WASN'T
[00:23:58] MUCH HELP, BUT THEN HE DIED, TOO. SO THAT FORECLOSED ANY
[00:24:02] POSSIBILITY THAT HE MIGHT
[00:24:04] SOMEDAY BE REHABILITATED AND BE
[00:24:06] ABLE TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY. I JUST LOOK ON HER AND SAY SHE'S
[00:24:10] THE ONE WHO REALLY HAD THE TRAGIC LIFE AND IT'S LATE IN
[00:24:14] LIFE, YOU KNOW, THAT THAT HAPPENS TO HER. SHE'S ALREADY SHE COULD THINK OF
[00:24:16] HERSELF AS A SUCCESS, MAYBE, YOU
[00:24:19] KNOW, HAVING SIX ADULT CHILDREN.
[00:24:23] SO I THINK THAT THAT IS IS TRAGIC. AND SO I THINK ALSO THE GRIEF
[00:24:28] THAT GRANDMOTHER HALL MUST HAVE
[00:24:30] FELT AS WELL AS WHAT OWN OR FELT
[00:24:33] IN THE LOSS OF BOTH PARENTS AND
[00:24:35] A SIBLING, I THINK THAT MADE
[00:24:37] THOSE EARLY TEENAGE YEARS VERY DARK.
[00:24:39] BUT THEN WHAT HAPPENS WITH
[00:24:43] ALAN'S WOULD IS SHE GETS A NEW LIFE, AT LEAST ON LIFE.
[00:24:46] IT'S KIND OF A RESURRECTION EXPERIENCE AND SHE BECOMES
[00:24:50] HERSELF AGAIN IN THE WAY THAT SHE SHE WAS IN THOSE YEARS WHEN
[00:24:54] HER FATHER WAS ALIVE AND WELL
[00:24:56] AND PART OF HER HER HER FAMILY.
[00:25:00] NOW, I ALSO WANT TO TELL YOU A
[00:25:03] LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE RELIGIOUS
[00:25:06] CULTURE THAT SHE WAS PART OF. I'VE TOLD YOU ABOUT THE PARISH
[00:25:10] IS BUT THE RELIGIOUS CULTURE OF
[00:25:14] NEW YORK WAS HEAVILY INFLUENCED BY THE EPISCOPAL CHURCH BECAUSE
[00:25:18] IT HAD BEEN THE ESTABLISHED CHURCH DURING THE COLONIAL
[00:25:22] PERIOD. AND EVEN THOUGH IT NEVER HAD A
[00:25:24] MAJORITY OF THE POPULATION, IT
[00:25:27] WAS CHARGED WITH RESPONSIVE ABILITY FOR THE WHOLE POPULATION
[00:25:30] TO HAVE A CHARTER TO TRINITY CHURCH, WALL STREET FROM WILLIAM
[00:25:34] AND MARY, SAID THE CHURCH HAS TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE
[00:25:38] SPIRITUAL NEEDS OF ALL NEW YORKERS, WHETHER THEY'RE MEMBERS OF THE CHURCH OR NOT.
[00:25:42] AND A FEW YEARS LATER, QUEEN
[00:25:45] ANNE ENDOWED THE PARISH WITH A
[00:25:49] GLEBE THAT'S A FARM TO RAISE MONEY FOR THE PARISH.
[00:25:52] A HISTORIC MEDIEVAL TRADITION.
[00:25:55] THIS GLEBE STRETCHED FROM WALL
[00:25:58] STREET TO CHRISTOPHER STREET IN
[00:26:00] MANHATTAN AND TO THIS DAY, SOME
[00:26:02] OF THOSE SKYSCRAPERS ON WALL STREET PAY GROUND RENTS TO
[00:26:06] TRINITY CHURCH.
[00:26:07] OKAY, WITH THAT MONEY, THEY WERE
[00:26:11] ABLE TO FOUND MANY INSTITUTIONS, INCLUDING KING'S COLLEGE, WHICH
[00:26:14] BECAME COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY CITY.
[00:26:16] MANY HOSPITALS, OTHER INSTITUTIONS, OTHER SCHOOLS,
[00:26:20] LOTS OF OTHER PARISHES GREW OUT OF THAT WORK.
[00:26:24] AND THEY ALSO TODAY, THEY FUND ALL KINDS OF ACTIVITIES IN THE
[00:26:27] CITY OF NEW YORK, BUT THEY ALSO FUND THE NATIONAL BUDGET OF THE
[00:26:31] EPISCOPAL CHURCH. THEY FUND MISSION PROJECTS THROUGHOUT THE ANGLICAN
[00:26:35] COMMUNION. SO IT'S STILL GOING STRONG.
[00:26:37] SO IT HAD THIS THIS SENSE THAT
[00:26:42] THE CHURCH IS NOT A SECT, IT'S
[00:26:44] NOT SOMEBODY IT'S NOT AN ORGANIZATION TAKES CARE OF ITS OWN.
[00:26:48] IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE THERE FOR EVERYBODY.
[00:26:50] NOT ALL CHURCHES HAVE THAT THAT IDEA. BUT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT
[00:26:55] DISTINGUISHES NEW YORK FROM NEW
[00:26:57] ENGLAND IS THAT THE WHOLE CON,
[00:27:00] CEPT OF JOHN WINTHROP'S VISION FOR THE MASSACHUSETTS BAY
[00:27:03] COLONY, WAS THAT IT WOULD BE A CITY ON A HILL, IT WOULD BE A
[00:27:08] UTOPIAN EXPERIENCE. THIS WOULD ALL BE A COMMUNITY OF
[00:27:11] THE RIGHTEOUS, THE REHABILITATED, THE REGENERATE,
[00:27:14] THE CONVINCED, THE CONVERTED, WHAT HAVE YOU. NEW YORK WASN'T LIKE THAT AT ALL.
[00:27:18] NEW YORK WAS TO BE AN EXTENSION OF LONDON, AND IT WAS KIND OF
[00:27:22] THE DRAGNET THING. IT'S LIKE, YOU KNOW, WHOEVER
[00:27:25] SHOWS UP, THAT'S PART OF IT. YOU'RE PART OF THE COMMUNITY.
[00:27:28] LOVE THEM, HATE THEM, THEY'RE YOURS. DEAL WITH IT. YOU KNOW, THAT'S KIND OF THE NEW
[00:27:31] YORK THE NEW YORK MINDSET YET
[00:27:34] AND SO THE EPISCOPAL CHURCH IN
[00:27:36] NEW YORK HAD THAT MINDSET AND
[00:27:38] THEN SOMETHING VERY FORTUITOUS
[00:27:40] HAPPENED ALONG THE WAY THAT GAVE
[00:27:44] THE EPISCOPAL CHURCH A FUNCTIONAL MAJORITY IN TERMS OF
[00:27:47] ITS WORLD VIEW, NOT IT WAS NEVER
[00:27:51] A NUMERICAL MAJORITY, BUT A FUNCTIONAL MAJORITY.
[00:27:53] AND BY THAT I MEAN AND IF WE HAVE ALREADY DRAWN THE SHADES,
[00:27:56] IF YOU LOCK THE DOORS, I'LL TELL YOU, IT WAS IMMIGRATION.
[00:28:00] THAT WAS SOMETHING THAT WAS VERY
[00:28:02] SALUTARY FOR THE VIEWPOINT THAT
[00:28:04] THE EPISCOPAL CHURCH REPRESENTED
[00:28:08] BECAUSE YOU HAD BEGINNING IN THE
[00:28:10] 1840S, YOU HAD LARGE SCALE IRISH
[00:28:12] ROMAN CATHOLIC IMMIGRATION. AND THEN TOWARD THE END OF THIS
[00:28:16] CENTURY, ITALIAN AND POLISH AND ALL KINDS OF CATHOLIC
[00:28:20] IMMIGRATION, WHICH BY THAT BY 19TH HUNDRED, THE ROMAN CATHOLIC
[00:28:23] CHURCH WAS THE MAJORITY CHURCH IN IN NEW YORK CITY.
[00:28:26] BUT YOU ALSO THEN HAD BY THE END
[00:28:29] OF THE CENTURY, YOU HAD A LOT OF JEWISH IMMIGRATION AS WELL.
[00:28:32] AND THERE HAD ALREADY BEEN A JEWISH COMMUNITY ESTABLISHED IN NEW YORK.
[00:28:36] BUT IT GOT REALLY BIG TO THE POINT THAT IT WAS THE SECOND
[00:28:39] LARGEST GROUP IN NEW YORK AT THE TURN OF THE CENTURY, AT THE
[00:28:42] BEGINNING OF THE 20TH CENTURY, AND THEN THE NEXT LARGEST GROUP
[00:28:45] WERE THE EPISCOPALIANS WHO HAD
[00:28:47] THIS HISTORIC LEADERSHIP ROLE.
[00:28:50] AND NOW THEY HAD A FUNCTIONAL MAJORITY IN THAT.
[00:28:53] THEY ALL SHARE THIS IDEA OF
[00:28:55] COMMUNITY THAT WAS VERY SOLIDARY
[00:28:58] ISTIC AND VERY NON JUDGMENTAL.
[00:29:02] THE NEW ENGLAND VERSION WAS THAT
[00:29:06] GOD IS PRIMARILY A JUDGE OF HUMAN BEHAVIOR AND HE'S
[00:29:09] PRIMARILY DISSATISFIED WITH IT.
[00:29:11] AND WE NEED TO DISCIPLINE IN THE COMMUNITY AND BEHAVE IN WAYS
[00:29:15] THAT, YOU KNOW, ARE PLEASING TO GOD. THE WHOLE THING WAS DIFFERENT IN
[00:29:18] NEW YORK, GOD IS SEEN AS THE GIVER OF GREAT GIFTS.
[00:29:21] IT'S THE GOD OF GRACE THAT'S THE ONE THAT'S EMPHASIZED IN THE
[00:29:26] RELIGIOUS CULTURE OF NEW YORK. AND SO THE EMPHASIS IS NOT ON
[00:29:30] SOCIAL DISCIPLINE, BUT ON SOCIAL
[00:29:32] PROVISION, GETTING PEOPLE WHAT THEY NEED.
[00:29:34] NOT SO MANY QUESTIONS ABOUT WHETHER THEY DESERVE IT OR NOT.
[00:29:38] IF THEY NEED IT, WE'RE GOING TO TRY TO GET IT FOR THEM.
[00:29:42] AND YOU CAN SEE ARE ACTUALLY THE
[00:29:46] OUTLIER SINS OF WHAT BECOMES THE
[00:29:48] CONSUMING, THE IDEOLOGICAL DISPOSITION OF THE NEW DEAL,
[00:29:52] WHICH IS REALLY ABOUT PROVIDING
[00:29:54] FOR THE PEOPLE, NOT FIXING THEM OR MANAGING THEM, OR MAKING THEM
[00:29:59] INTO SOMETHING THAT THEY'RE NOT.
[00:30:00] SO THAT I THINK PLAYED INTO
[00:30:03] CERTAINLY ELEANOR WAS APPROACHED
[00:30:07] TO TO HER RELIGIOUS COMMITMENTS
[00:30:11] ALSO, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I
[00:30:12] FIND IS ALMOST PROPHETIC AND YOU
[00:30:15] CAN MAKE OF IT WHAT YOU WANT IS
[00:30:17] THAT THIS PRIEST ADAPT HIS HER
[00:30:20] AS I TOLD YOU, BECAME THE FIRST BISHOP OF WASHINGTON.
[00:30:23] THERE WAS NO DICE HIS OF WASHING
[00:30:26] TUNE IN THE EPISCOPAL CHURCH. IT WAS CREATED IN THE LATE 19TH
[00:30:30] CENTURY AND IT WAS THE IDEA OF
[00:30:32] IT WAS TO CREATE A PLATFORM FOR
[00:30:36] THE EPISCOPAL CHURCH TO SPEAK TO PUBLIC ISSUES.
[00:30:40] AND THE IDEA WAS WE WOULD HAVE A
[00:30:42] BISHOP OF WASHINGTON WHO WOULD
[00:30:44] SPEAK FOR THE CHURCH AND WE WOULD HAVE A GREAT NATIONAL
[00:30:48] CATHEDRAL TO FULFILL. PIERRE LONG FONS VISION WHEN HE
[00:30:52] DESIGNED THE CITY, HE MADE PROVISION FOR GREAT HOUSE OF
[00:30:55] PRAYER FOR NATIONAL PURPOSES. IT DIDN'T GO ANYWHERE.
[00:30:57] NOBODY BUILT IT. SO THE EPISCOPAL CHURCH SAID,
[00:31:01] WELL, WE'LL DO THAT. AND PART OF WHAT THAT IS, IS
[00:31:05] WHERE THAT'S COMING FROM IS THAT
[00:31:07] AFTER THE CIVIL WAR, THERE WAS A
[00:31:09] GREAT NEED FOR CONCEPTS OF
[00:31:12] NATIONAL UNITY. ONE OF THE THINGS THAT CHANGES
[00:31:16] MANY THINGS THAT CHANGED WITH THE CIVIL WAR. BUT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT CHANGES IS THAT PRIOR TO THE
[00:31:20] CIVIL WAR, THE UNITED STATES
[00:31:22] TAKES A PLURAL VERB. AFTER THE WAR, IT TAKES A
[00:31:26] SINGULAR VERB. SO THE UNITED STATES ARE
[00:31:28] PLANNING TO DO SOMETHING AFTER THE WAR.
[00:31:32] IT'S THE UNITED STATES IS PLANNING OKAY.
[00:31:34] THE UNITED STATES IS A SINGLE COUNTRY.
[00:31:36] IT'S NOT SO MUCH A FEDERATION ANYMORE.
[00:31:39] THE EPISCOPAL CHURCH HAD HAD
[00:31:42] THIS NATIONAL UNITY ARGUMENT FROM THE BEGINNING, AND ONE OF
[00:31:46] THE THINGS THAT HAPPENED DURING
[00:31:48] THE 70S AND THE 80S, 1870S AND
[00:31:51] 80S, AND FOR THE FIRST TIME AND THE ONLY TIME IN ITS HISTORY,
[00:31:54] THE EPISCOPAL CHURCH GREW AT A RATE THAT WAS SLIGHTLY GREATER
[00:31:58] THAN THE GENERAL POPULATION
[00:32:00] GROWTH OF THE COUNTRY PRIOR TO
[00:32:04] WELL, FROM FROM THE TIME OF THE
[00:32:06] REVOLUTION TO THE PRESENT DAY, THE EPISCOPAL CHURCH HAS CLOCKED
[00:32:10] IN AT ABOUT 1% OF THE POPULATION.
[00:32:13] NATIONALLY AND IT WAS DURING THE
[00:32:17] THE 18TH 70S AND 80S THAT IT
[00:32:20] STARTED TO OUTPACE THE NATIONAL POPULATION.
[00:32:22] IT LATER RECEDED. BUT I THINK PART OF THAT WAS
[00:32:25] THAT THERE WAS THIS NEED FOR A NATIONAL UNITY ARGUMENT.
[00:32:29] IT WAS QUITE COMMON FOR
[00:32:32] ORGANIZATIONS, NATIONAL BODIES
[00:32:35] WERE FORMING TO GO TO CONGRESS TO GET A CONGRESSIONAL CHARTER
[00:32:38] TO SAY THIS IS NOT JUST A GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO WANT TO DO
[00:32:41] SOMETHING. THIS IS GOING TO BE FOR THE WHOLE COUNTRY. SO THE RED CROSS IS AN EXAMPLE
[00:32:46] OF THAT. AND OF COURSE, WHITENING THE FEDERAL ALSO GOT A CONGRESSIONAL
[00:32:50] CHARTER AND AT THE TIME THAT THE
[00:32:53] CORNERSTONE IS LAID, IT'S NOT
[00:32:55] JUST THE PRIEST WHO BAPTIZED ELEANOR ROOSEVELT, WHO LAYS THE
[00:32:59] CORNERSTONE. HE'S JOINED BY THE SITTING PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES,
[00:33:03] ELEANOR, HIS GODFATHER. SO I FIND IT KIND OF INTERESTING
[00:33:07] THAT THIS IDEA OF RELIGION AND
[00:33:10] PUBLIC LIFE KIND OF COMING
[00:33:13] TOGETHER IN HER RELIGIOUS TRADITION, BUT THEN COMING
[00:33:16] TOGETHER IN HER PERSONAL LIFE IS
[00:33:19] AS WELL, IS IS VERY SIGNIFICANT.
[00:33:22] YOU KNOW, SHE SHE MAINTAINED HER PARISH AFFILIATIONS THROUGHOUT
[00:33:24] HER LIFE, INCLUDING HERE IN HYDE
[00:33:26] PARK, ST JAMES HYDE PARK, WHERE
[00:33:30] SHE HAD HER HER FUNERAL, ONE OF HER THREE FUNERALS WAS AT ST
[00:33:34] JAMES. BUT SHE ALSO HAD CLOSE
[00:33:39] RELATIONSHIPS WITH INCARNATION FOR THE REST OF HER LIFE.
[00:33:42] WHEN THEY LIVED IN ALBANY, THEY WERE MEMBERS OF THE CATHEDRAL OF
[00:33:46] ALL SAINTS. WHEN THEY MOVED TO WASHINGTON,
[00:33:48] THEY JOINED ST THOMAS DUPONT
[00:33:50] CIRCLE AND FDR ACTUALLY SERVED ON THE VESTRY. THERE.
[00:33:54] AND WHEN THEY WERE IN CAMPOBELLO, THEY WERE ACTIVE MEMBERS OF ST ANNE'S WELSHPOOL
[00:33:58] AND FDR WAS ELECTED AN HONORARY VESTRY, MEN THERE.
[00:34:03] SO SHE HAD THIS CLOSE
[00:34:05] RELATIONSHIP TO HER OWN CHURCH.
[00:34:07] BUT SHE ALSO SPOKE IN A VERY
[00:34:10] BROAD ECUMENICAL LANGUAGE.
[00:34:13] AND I THINK THAT'S WHY A LOT OF OBSERVERS THINK SHE EITHER
[00:34:16] WASN'T RELIGIOUS OR WASN'T COMMITTED TO A PARTICULAR
[00:34:20] TRADITION. SHE SPOKE IN A BROAD ECUMENICAL LANGUAGE.
[00:34:24] BUT IN HER BOOK, THE MORAL BASIS
[00:34:26] OF DEMOCRACY, SHE ACTUALLY SAYS
[00:34:28] THAT JESUS CHRIST IS THE PATTERN
[00:34:30] FOR LIFE AND INTO MY MARCHESE.
[00:34:32] AND SHE SAYS, NOT EVERYBODY IS GOING TO BELIEVE THAT HE WAS THE SON OF GOD.
[00:34:36] THAT'S NOT THE POINT. THE POINT IS THAT HE IS AN
[00:34:40] EXAMPLE OF HOW WE HAVE TO LIVE
[00:34:43] WITH CONCERN AND FOR THE
[00:34:45] WELL-BEING OF OUR NEIGHBOR, WITH
[00:34:47] GENEROSITY OF SPIRIT AND A
[00:34:50] COMMITMENT TO THE WELL-BEING OF OUR NEIGHBORS.
[00:34:52] SHE SAW DEMOCRACY ENTIRELY AS A
[00:34:56] COOPERATIVE ENTERPRISE, NOT A SPHERE OF COMPETITION.
[00:34:59] AND THAT'S SOMETHING I THINK WE HAVE LOST.
[00:35:03] MAYBE WE CAN REGAIN IT, BUT WE CERTAINLY DON'T SEEM TO BE
[00:35:06] TALKING ABOUT COOPERATION VERY MUCH IN THE PRESENT DAY.
[00:35:09] BUT IT WAS SOMETHING THAT NOT ONLY ELEANOR BELIEVED IN, BUT
[00:35:13] ACTUALLY DURING THE NEW DEAL.
[00:35:14] SOME SCHOLARS DID RESEARCH ON
[00:35:19] CLERGY ATTITUDES TOWARDS THE NEW
[00:35:21] DEAL AND THERE WAS ONE SURVEY
[00:35:25] WHERE THEY WERE ASKED WHAT KIND OF SOCIETY WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE?
[00:35:29] COMMUNISM, SOCIALISM, AND OR
[00:35:32] CAPITALISM OR THE COOPERATIVE COMMONWEALTH.
[00:35:35] AND IT EPISCOPALIANS
[00:35:37] OVERWHELMINGLY EPISCOPAL CLERGY,
[00:35:40] OVERWHELMINGLY SELECTED CO-OPERATIVE COMMONWEALTH AS
[00:35:43] THEIR THEIR VISION. AND I THINK IF WE WERE GOING TO
[00:35:48] CHARACTERIZE THE NEW DEAL AND IT'S HARD TO ACTUALLY COME UP
[00:35:50] WITH A SINGLE JUDGMENT OF IT, BUT I THINK CO-OPERATIVE
[00:35:54] COMMONWEALTH IS PART OF THE
[00:35:57] UNDERLYING VISION OF THE OF THE NEW DEAL.
[00:35:59] SO I THINK I'M PROBABLY OUT OF
[00:36:02] TIME AND IS IT TIME TO TAKE
[00:36:04] QUESTIONS OPEN UP. OKAY. YES. OH, EXCUSE ME.
[00:36:08] YOU NEED TO COME UP TO THE
[00:36:10] MICROPHONE BECAUSE WE'RE.
[00:36:17] I WAS JUST WONDERING IF YOU HAVE
[00:36:20] ANY REFLECTIONS ON ELEANOR'S
[00:36:22] CHURCH LIFE AT ST PAUL'S IN TIVOLI? YES.
[00:36:28] SHE. SHE SHE TALKED ABOUT THE
[00:36:32] DIFFICULT OF THE RIDE THERE
[00:36:35] BECAUSE THEY WENT THEY WENT IN A HORSE DRAWN CARRIAGE AND IT WAS
[00:36:38] ABOUT FOUR MILES.
[00:36:39] AND SHE ALSO IT HAD PEWS WHERE
[00:36:43] THEY WOULD SIT TOGETHER. THEY WERE FACING EACH OTHER.
[00:36:45] AND SHE WAS UNCOMFORTABLE
[00:36:47] BECAUSE HER GRANDMOTHER COULD, LIKE STARE AT HER DURING THE
[00:36:51] LITURGY. SO THAT'S ACTUALLY ALL I ALL I
[00:36:55] KNOW ABOUT HER REFLECTIONS ON IT.
[00:36:58] WHAT I DO KNOW IS THAT ST PAUL'S
[00:37:02] TIVOLI WAS ALSO NOT A BACKWATER PLACE.
[00:37:04] IT WAS A VERY SOPHISTICATED PARISH. SHE HAD A LOT OF FIRST FAMILIES
[00:37:07] FROM THE HUDSON VALLEY ARE WERE
[00:37:11] MEMBERS THERE AND THAT SORT OF THING. AND IT WAS PART OF THE DIOCESE OF NEW YORK.
[00:37:14] SO IT WAS PART OF THAT LARGER CULTURE.
[00:37:19] YEAH. THANK YOU. ANYBODY ELSE?
[00:37:23] I WAS JUST WONDERING HOW MUCH
[00:37:25] INTERACTION SHE HAD WITH REINHOLD NIEBUHR AND DID HE HAVE
[00:37:29] ANY INFLUENCE ON HER OR ANY
[00:37:32] OTHER THEOLOGIANS THAT YOU KNOW?
[00:37:34] WELL, YEAH, I DON'T ACTUALLY
[00:37:37] KNOW ABOUT NIEBUHR SPECIFICALLY.
[00:37:40] NYBORG CAME FROM A LIBERAL
[00:37:44] CALVINIST TRADITION, BUT IN TERMS OF THE AND SO, I MEAN,
[00:37:49] THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN SOME DIFFERENCES IN TERMS OF
[00:37:51] UNDERSTANDING OF COMMUNITY AND ALSO OF HUMAN NATURE.
[00:37:55] BUT THEY TENDED TO COME TO THE SAME KINDS OF CONCLUSIONS IN
[00:37:57] TERMS OF WHAT WAS NEEDED FOR FOR
[00:38:00] OUR SOCIETY, NEIGHBOR WAS ALSO MARRIED TO A WOMAN WHO WAS A
[00:38:05] CHURCH OF ENGLAND, THEOLOGIAN.
[00:38:07] AND SO HE WAS ABLE TO SPEAK TO
[00:38:10] EPISCOPALIANS IN SOME LANGUAGE
[00:38:12] THAT THEY UNDERSTOOD.
[00:38:15] NOW, SOMEONE THAT WAS VERY CLOSE
[00:38:17] TO HER WAS THE A PRIEST BY THE
[00:38:22] NAME OF WILLIAM TURNER. LEVI.
[00:38:26] AND SHE MET HIM LATE IN LIFE.
[00:38:28] BUT THEY BECAME GOOD FRIENDS BECAUSE HE WAS A LITERATURE
[00:38:33] PROFESSOR. AND ELEANOR HAD A LIFELONG LOVE OF THE THEATER.
[00:38:35] AND SO LEVI AND HIS PARENTS ACTUALLY THEY BECAME KIND OF A
[00:38:40] FORCE. UM, SO WHENEVER ELEANOR WAS IN NEW YORK, THEY WOULD GO TO SHOWS
[00:38:42] TOGETHER AND THAT KIND OF THING.
[00:38:44] AND THAT HER DEFINITE DEVOTION
[00:38:46] TO THE THEATER STARTED VERY
[00:38:48] EARLY WHEN SHE WAS I DON'T KNOW,
[00:38:52] PROBABLY ABOUT 12 OR 13. HER AUNTS HAD SEEN TESS OF THE
[00:38:55] D'URBERVILLES AND ELEANOR SAID
[00:38:58] SHE'D LIKE TO SEE IT. AND THEY SAID, NO, YOU'RE TOO YOUNG FOR THAT.
[00:39:02] AND SHE WAS GIVEN SOME MONEY TO
[00:39:04] GO TO A CHURCH BAZAAR AT
[00:39:08] INCARNATE NATION. AND SHE SOMEHOW GOT IN TOUCH
[00:39:10] WITH A FRIEND AND SAID, I'VE GOT MONEY.
[00:39:13] WE CAN GO TO A MATINEE. AND SO THEY WENT TO THE MATINEE
[00:39:16] OF TESS OF THE D'URBERVILLES.
[00:39:18] SO AGAIN, I SHARE THAT BECAUSE
[00:39:22] I'M KIND OF INTRIGUED BY IT. WHEN WHEN THEY TALK ABOUT HOW
[00:39:26] OPPRESSIVE GRANDMOTHER HALL WAS, ELEANOR WAS NOT NECESSARILY
[00:39:30] DESTROYED BY THAT. SHE HAD SOME OF HER OWN SPIRIT
[00:39:33] AND RESOURCEFULNESS THERE. AND ISN'T IT THE CASE THAT
[00:39:37] ELEANOR'S BROAD ACUMEN, ICAL VIEWS CAME FROM THE TIME WHEN
[00:39:40] SHE WAS WORKING AT THE U.N. AND SHE READ THE BHAGAVAD GITA AND
[00:39:44] THE KORAN AND, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE SHE HAD TO DEAL WITH THIS
[00:39:49] UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS AND COME UP WITH A DEFINITION OF RELIGION THAT FIT
[00:39:53] EVERYBODY IN THE WORLD. YEAH, WELL, IN FACT, SHE SHE DID
[00:39:56] SAY THAT SHE WOULD HAVE PREFERRED TO SEE THE UNIVERSAL
[00:40:00] DECLARATION MAKE REFERENCE TO A SUPREME BEING AS THE SOURCE OF
[00:40:04] RIGHTS. BUT SHE RECOGNIZED THAT THAT WAS
[00:40:07] NOT GOING TO WORK FOR EVERYBODY
[00:40:09] BECAUSE NOT ALL RELIGIONS HAVE A
[00:40:11] CONCEPT OF A SINGLE SUPREME BEING.
[00:40:14] AND SO THEY SETTLED ON THE CONCEPT OF SIMPLY SAYING, YOU'RE
[00:40:18] BORN WITH THESE RIGHTS. WE DON'T SAY WHERE THEY CAME FROM.
[00:40:22] DON'T NEED TO. YOU'VE GOT THEM. THAT'S WHAT WE NEED TO WORK ON. WE NEED TO WORK ON RESPECTING
[00:40:26] THEM. BUT I THINK THAT THE THE
[00:40:30] ECUMENICAL VISION IS ACTUALLY
[00:40:32] THERE EARLIER THAN THAN THE U.N. PERIOD.
[00:40:35] CERTAINLY BY THE TIME SHE SHE WENT TO WASHINGTON.
[00:40:38] BUT ALSO SO IN HER EARLIEST DAYS
[00:40:43] WHEN SHE GOT BACK FROM ALLAN'S WOULD HER GRANDMOTHER WANTED HER
[00:40:47] TO HAVE A DEBUT AND BE A DEBUTANTE AND ALL THAT.
[00:40:49] AND SHE DON'T WANT TO DO IT, BUT SHE AGREED TO IT.
[00:40:53] BUT HER FRIEND, MARY HARRIMAN
[00:40:56] HAD FORMED THE JUNIOR LEAGUE FOR THE PROMOTION OF SETTLEMENT WORK.
[00:40:59] AND MARY HERMAN'S VISION IS YET
[00:41:01] THESE DEBUTANTES TO STOP GOING TO PARTIES ALL THE TIME, GET
[00:41:04] THEM TO DO SOMETHING USEFUL.
[00:41:06] AND SO, ELEANOR WAS A DEBUTANTE
[00:41:08] WHO WENT TO THE WOMEN'S RIVINGTON STREET SETTLEMENT AND
[00:41:12] MAINLY WORKED WITH JEWISH CHILDREN.
[00:41:15] AND SHE HAD TO, IN SOME CASES,
[00:41:18] VISIT THEM IN THEIR HOMES. WHEN THEY WERE SICK.
[00:41:21] AND THESE WERE LOWER EAST SIDE TENEMENTS.
[00:41:23] AND BY THIS TIME SHE WAS COURTING FDR.
[00:41:26] HE WAS COURTING HER, AND SHE
[00:41:29] TOOK HIM WITH HER TO ONE OF THESE TENEMENTS.
[00:41:31] AND HE HAD BEEN REQUIRED TO DO
[00:41:33] SOCIAL WORK WHEN HE WAS AT.
[00:41:35] AND SO HE WAS NOT A COMPLETE NOVICE, BUT WHAT HE SAW IN
[00:41:39] GRAFTON, MASSACHUSETTS, WAS NOTHING LIKE WHAT HE SAW ON THE
[00:41:43] LOWER EAST SIDE. AND SHE SAID HE WAS LIKE DOUBLED
[00:41:46] OVER BY THE STENCH, FOR ONE THING. BUT WHEN THEY CAME OUT INTO THE
[00:41:50] STREET, HE SAID, I HAVE NO IDEA
[00:41:51] THAT PEOPLE LIVE LIKE THIS.
[00:41:55] AND 25 YEARS LATER, HIS SPEECH
[00:41:58] IS I SEE A THIRD OF A NATION, AN ILL HOUSED, ILL CLAD, ILL FED
[00:42:02] THAT MADE TREMENDOUS IMPRESSION ON ON HIM.
[00:42:05] SO I THINK THAT ELEANOR HAD A
[00:42:09] BROAD KIND OF SOCIAL PERSPECTIVE EVEN AT A VERY YOUNG AGE.
[00:42:12] SHE WAS ABOUT 19 YEARS OLD AT
[00:42:14] THE WHEN THAT INCIDENT OCCURRED.
[00:42:17] BUT SHE SHE ALREADY HAD IT. YEAH.
[00:42:21] YOU GOT TIME FOR PROBABLY ONE
[00:42:26] MORE. OKAY.
[00:42:28] WELL, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
[00:42:37] NEXT, MORE FROM HYDE PARK, NEW
[00:42:39] YORK, AND THE ROOSEVELT READING FESTIVAL.
[00:42:43] I'M BILL HARRIS, THE DIRECTOR
[00:42:45] HERE AT THE FDR PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY. WELCOME YOU ON THIS BEAUTIFUL
[00:42:49] SATURDAY MORNING HERE TO A PLACE THAT FDR WOULD BE SO HAPPY THAT
[00:42:52] THIS WAS OCCURRING. AND I LOVE TO BE ABLE TO SAY
[00:42:56] THAT, TO SPEAK ON HIS BEHALF THESE MANY YEARS LATER,