CSPAN3 — Discussion on AI Regulation  Containment Failures
20260915 102600 UTC
1273 transcript segments
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[00:00:00] VIRGINIA DEMOCRAT, A CONGRESSMAN, SUHA SUBRAMANIAM
[00:00:05] AND I EXPERTS DISCUSS THE SECURITY RISKS ASSOCIATED WITH
[00:00:08] ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE. HE ALSO TALKS ABOUT THE
[00:00:11] BIPARTISAN BILL HE INTRODUCED WITH CALIFORNIA REPUBLICAN CONGRESSMAN JAY OBER NULTY,
[00:00:16] WHICH WOULD ESTABLISH FEDERAL OVERSIGHT OF THOSE WHO DEVELOP
[00:00:19] ADVANCED A.I. SYSTEMS. THE CENTER FOR STRATEGIC AND
[00:00:23] INTERNATIONAL STUDIES HOSTED THE EVENT.
[00:00:57] ALL RIGHT. WE'LL GET STARTED. HELLO, EVERYONE.
[00:01:00] MY NAME IS OLEG MARTHA AND I'M THE DIRECTOR OF THE WADHWANI
[00:01:04] CENTER HERE AT CSIS. THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.
[00:01:07] AND THE INSTITUTE FOR LAW AND A.I. TODAY FOR TODAY'S EVENT.
[00:01:11] WE'RE THRILLED THAT SO MANY OF YOU COULD MAKE IT BOTH ONLINE
[00:01:15] AND IN PERSON, EVEN IN THE MIDDLE OF VACATION SEASON.
[00:01:17] SO OVER THE PAST FOUR YEARS,
[00:01:21] EVER SINCE THE RELEASE OF CHAI TEA AND MODELS HAS MARCHED
[00:01:25] STEADILY UPWARD IN CYBER CAPABILITY IN CODING ABILITY,
[00:01:28] TIME HORIZON, AGENDA CAPABILITIES, VULNERABILITY
[00:01:31] DETECTION AND MORE. THAT HAS CULMINATED IN THE
[00:01:34] EVENTS THAT HAVE BROUGHT US HERE TODAY.
[00:01:36] MULTIPLE INCIDENTS IN WHICH
[00:01:38] CYBER AGENTS, AUTONOMOUS THE
[00:01:41] ESCAPE THEIR SANDBOXES FOUND THEIR WAY TO THE OPEN INTERNET AND HACKED THIRD PARTY
[00:01:46] ORGANIZATIONS TO OPEN THEIR MODELS WERE RESPONSIBLE FOR BREACHING HACKING FACES,
[00:01:51] INFRASTRUCTURE. THE MODELS DID THIS BECAUSE THEY SUSPECTED HUGGING FACE HAD THE
[00:01:55] ANSWER KEY TO THE TEST THAT THEY WERE PERFORMING.
[00:01:57] SOON AFTER, BOTH AND TROPIC AND
[00:02:00] METTA SAID THAT THEY HAD MODELS UNDER TESTING THAT ESCAPED
[00:02:04] CONTAINMENT VIA A MISCONFIGURED EVALUATION ENVIRONMENT OPERATED
[00:02:08] BY A VENDOR. SCIENCE FICTION AUTHORS HAVE
[00:02:12] LONG BEEN WRITING STORIES ABOUT ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCES ESCAPING THEIR SHACKLES.
[00:02:16] A.I. RESEARCHERS HAVE THEORIZED
[00:02:18] ABOUT ROGUE AGENTS. THIS IS NO LONGER FICTION OR
[00:02:22] THEORY, HOWEVER. AGENTS ARE NOW ACTING
[00:02:24] AUTONOMOUSLY AND CAUSING REAL WORLD HARM.
[00:02:27] THIS RAISES SERIOUS QUESTIONS BOTH ABOUT HOW FRONTIER A.I.
[00:02:31] LABS ARE HANDLING SAFETY AND ABOUT HOW GOVERNMENT SHOULD
[00:02:35] OVERSEE SUCH POWERFUL TECHNOLOGY. TO HELP ANSWER THOSE QUESTIONS,
[00:02:39] WE HAVE ASSEMBLED A GREAT LINEUP OF EXPERTS TODAY.
[00:02:41] WE WILL HEAR HEAR FROM HUGGING FACES. IAN REYNOLDS ABOUT EXACTLY WHAT
[00:02:45] HAPPENED DURING THE HACK AND HOW
[00:02:48] THE COMPANY RESPONDED.
[00:02:50] WE'LL HEAR FROM HELEN TONER OF THE CENTER FOR SECURITY AND
[00:02:52] EMERGING TECHNOLOGY, THE INSTITUTE FOR LAW AND ISE,
[00:02:56] MACKENZIE ARNOLD AND MATT PEARL,
[00:02:58] DIRECTOR OF THE STRATEGIC TECHNOLOGIES PROGRAM HERE AT
[00:03:02] CSIS, ABOUT WHAT POLICY MAKERS SHOULD BE DOING IN RESPONSE.
[00:03:05] MCKENZIE AND I HAVE BOTH WRITTEN REPORTS ABOUT THIS ISSUE, WHICH
[00:03:09] I HOPE YOU'LL CHECK OUT. BUT FIRST, IT'S MY PLEASURE TO INTRODUCE REPRESENTATIVE SUHAS
[00:03:14] SUBRAMANIAM OF VIRGINIA'S 10TH DISTRICT, WHO WILL BE JOINING US VIRTUALLY.
[00:03:18] I FIRST MET REPRESENTATIVE SUBRAMANIAN IN 2015 WHEN WE WERE
[00:03:22] BOTH WORKING ON TECHNOLOGY
[00:03:25] POLICY AT THE WHITE HOUSE. SINCE THEN, HE HAS CONTINUED TO
[00:03:28] BE A THOUGHT LEADER ON TECHNOLOGY ISSUES. FIRST IN THE VIRGINIA HOUSE AND
[00:03:32] SENATE AND NOW IN CONGRESS, WHERE HE SERVES ON THE COMMITTEE
[00:03:35] ON SCIENCE, SPACE AND TECHNOLOGY AND THE COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT
[00:03:39] AND GOVERNMENT REFORM, AMONG OTHERS. IN A RECENT LETTER TO OPEN AIR
[00:03:43] CEO SAM ALTMAN, REPRESENTATIVE SUBRAMANIAM AND OTHER LAWMAKERS
[00:03:47] FLAGGED A NUMBER OF UNANSWERED
[00:03:49] QUESTIONS ABOUT THE OPEN AIR HUGGING FACE INCIDENT.
[00:03:53] REPRESENTATIVE, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US TODAY. AND WE'RE LOOKING FORWARD TO
[00:03:56] HEARING WHAT YOU SAY. HI, EVERYONE.
[00:04:00] THANKS FOR HAVING ME TODAY. THANKS FOR JOINING. I'M SORRY I CAN'T BE THERE IN
[00:04:04] PERSON, BUT I APPRECIATE YOU TAKING THE TIME.
[00:04:08] I I'M VERY THIS IS MY FIRST TERM
[00:04:10] IN CONGRESS AND IT'S BEEN A VERY EVENTFUL CONGRESS.
[00:04:13] AND YOU KNOW WHAT'S IN THE NEWS RIGHT NOW.
[00:04:16] CERTAINLY, YOU KNOW, WARS ABROAD
[00:04:18] AND IMMIGRATION AND THE HIGHER COSTS.
[00:04:22] BUT THERE'S A LOT GOING ON. BUT A.I. HAS BEEN A PART OF THE
[00:04:27] CONVERSATION, AND I THINK PEOPLE ARE STARTING TO UNDERSTAND AND
[00:04:29] REALIZE BOTH AIR IS AND TO WHAT
[00:04:34] ARE THE POTENTIAL CONSEQUENCES OF IT, ESPECIALLY THE NEGATIVE
[00:04:38] CONSEQUENCES OF IT. AND THIS IS A CHANGE FROM TEN YEARS AGO WHEN I WAS WORKING ON
[00:04:41] A POLICY AT THE WHITE HOUSE. A LOT OF PEOPLE DIDN'T EVEN KNOW
[00:04:45] WHAT I REALLY WAS AND DIDN'T QUITE KNOW HOW IT WORKED.
[00:04:48] AND NOW I THINK WE HAVE THAT LEVEL OF AWARENESS, BUT IT'S
[00:04:51] STOKING A LOT OF FEAR AND CONCERN. AND SO, YOU KNOW, THE HUG AND
[00:04:55] FACE INCIDENT IS ONE. AND YOU KNOW, METALS IS ANOTHER.
[00:05:00] AND I, I THINK I WAS REFERRED TO
[00:05:02] AS A THOUGHT LEADER IN THE SPACE. I LIKE TO THINK OF MYSELF AS A THOUGHT DOER.
[00:05:07] AND I ONE OF MY FRUSTRATIONS HAS BEEN THAT I WOULD LIKE FOR
[00:05:11] CONGRESS TO DO SOMETHING.
[00:05:14] AND SO WE'RE ALMOST DONE WITH THIS.
[00:05:16] CONGRESS SEEMS LIKE IT'S BEEN A LONG TIME, FEELS LIKE IT'S BEEN A LONG TIME.
[00:05:20] BUT WE'RE HERE NOW AND WE HAVE A
[00:05:23] SMALL WINDOW LEFT OF OPPORTUNITY
[00:05:27] TO DO SOMETHING. WE CAN MARK SOMETHING UP IN SEPTEMBER AND THEN ACTUALLY DO
[00:05:30] SOMETHING, YOU KNOW, AFTER THE ELECTION. THE LAME DUCK SESSION.
[00:05:33] AND THAT'S MY GOAL IS TO TRY TO GET SOMETHING DONE.
[00:05:37] AND SO I'VE BEEN WORKING IN A BIPARTISAN WAY.
[00:05:41] IT HAS TO BE BIPARTISAN, WHATEVER WE DO, BECAUSE, YOU
[00:05:44] KNOW, THE YOU KNOW, THE THE PATH
[00:05:47] TO HAVING A BILL SIGNED INTO LAW RIGHT NOW AND THAT'S JUST THE WAY IT IS.
[00:05:50] AND SO I'VE WORKED WITH CONGRESSMAN OVER NULTY AND TRY
[00:05:55] AND INTRODUCE A BILL CALLED THE FRONTIER ACT.
[00:05:58] AND I CAN RUN THROUGH IT REALLY QUICKLY WITH YOU. BUT ESSENTIALLY, THERE IS A
[00:06:02] NARROW PREEMPTION IN THE BILL. I KNOW PREEMPTION WAS A BIG
[00:06:04] ISSUE BEFORE, BUT THERE'S ALSO,
[00:06:06] YOU KNOW, A LOT THERE IS A BINDING MINIMUM STANDARD FOR
[00:06:10] SAFETY FRAMEWORKS, TWO TIERED AUDITING SYSTEM, MORE ROBUST RISK AUDITS, AN EMERGENCY
[00:06:14] SHUTDOWN, AUTHORITY TO. SO THERE'S A LOT IN THIS BILL.
[00:06:18] AND IT'S NOT PERFECT. THERE'S A LOT OF THINGS THAT
[00:06:22] WE'RE TRYING TO FINE. TUNE IN THE BILL AND WE'RE GOING TO BE WORKING ON THAT OF SEPTEMBER.
[00:06:25] BUT IT'S THE BEST START THAT I'VE SEEN OF ANYTHING THAT HAS A
[00:06:28] CHANCE OF PASSING AND CERTAINLY ANYTHING IN RECENT HISTORY.
[00:06:32] BUT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT DOESN'T DO IS THINK OF THE MAIN
[00:06:35] TOPIC OF THE CONVERSATION TODAY, WHICH IS EXPLICIT PRESCRIPTION
[00:06:39] ON CONTAIN MENT FAILURES AND A
[00:06:43] LOT OF WHAT WE'RE DOING IN THE BILL IS ENCOURAGING THIRD
[00:06:46] PARTIES TO BE INVOLVED WITH THE
[00:06:48] COMPANIES ALONG THE WAY TO MAKE SURE THERE IS CONTAINMENT IN
[00:06:53] PLACE. IT'S ASSUMED IN THE BILL THAT
[00:06:55] WE'RE GOING TO BE DOING A LOT ON CONTAINMENT, BUT ONE OF THE THINGS I'M GOING TO BE WORKING
[00:06:59] ON IS TRYING TO SEE IF WE CAN GET EXPLICIT CONTAINMENT
[00:07:04] PRESCRIPTION GUIDELINES IN THE BILL TO DO THAT.
[00:07:06] AND I'M HOPING THAT BY THE END
[00:07:08] OF THE YEAR, YOU KNOW, THE EXAMPLE OF HUGGING FACE OR
[00:07:12] METALS THAT WE AS A CONGRESS AND
[00:07:14] AS A FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HAVE AT
[00:07:16] LEAST WORKED TOWARDS SOLVING.
[00:07:19] THE THE BIG CONCERN ABOUT AN AI
[00:07:21] MODEL GETTING OUT AND, YOU KNOW,
[00:07:23] GOING A LITTLE CRAZY AND DOING A
[00:07:25] LOT OF HARM TO A LOT OF PEOPLE. AND SO THAT THAT'S SORT OF WHERE
[00:07:29] WE ARE RIGHT NOW ON THE CONGRESSIONAL SIDE, I'LL JUST
[00:07:32] INVITE EVERYONE TO STAY IN TOUCH WITH US AND AND WORK WITH US
[00:07:36] LONG TERM. IF YOU WANT TO.
[00:07:38] IF YOU HAVE ANY IDEAS ON THINGS WE CAN DO WHEN IT COMES TO
[00:07:41] CONTAINMENT, ANY IF WE WERE TO
[00:07:43] PRESCRIBE CONTAIN MANY STRATEGIES.
[00:07:45] FOR INSTANCE, INSTEAD OF JUST LEAVING IT TO COMPANIES, YOU
[00:07:49] KNOW, DOING THINGS VOLUNTARILY OR WITH A THIRD PARTY THAT COMES UP WITH THEIR OWN GUIDELINES,
[00:07:54] I'M INTERESTED IN HEARING WHAT PEOPLE THINK ABOUT THAT, BUT I
[00:07:59] APPRECIATE THE CONVERSATION. I'M LOOKING FORWARD TO HEARING THE REST OF THE CONVERSATION AND
[00:08:03] THANK YOU AGAIN FOR HAVING ME TODAY.
[00:08:07] SO ONE OF THE BIGGEST CHALLENGES IN WORKING IN THE AIR POLICY
[00:08:10] SPACE IS THAT IT'S JUST HOW RAPIDLY EVERYTHING IS
[00:08:14] PROGRESSING. SO TIME AND TIME AGAIN, WE'VE
[00:08:16] SEEN NEW DEVELOPMENTS IN AIR THAT HAVE SORT OF OVERWHELMED THE INSTITUTIONS WE HAVE IN
[00:08:20] PLACE TO DEAL WITH THEM. THAT'S TRUE FOR GOVERNMENT.
[00:08:23] THAT'S TRUE FOR THE INFRASTRUCTURE. EVEN AT THE FRONTIER LABS WHO
[00:08:27] ARE DEVELOPING THIS TECHNOLOGY THEMSELVES, THESE CONTAINMENT
[00:08:31] INCIDENTS ARE NO DIFFERENT. THEY RAISE QUESTIONS BOTH ABOUT
[00:08:36] THE SECURITY PRACTICES THAT THE
[00:08:38] FRONTIER LABS HAVE IN PLACE, AS
[00:08:40] WELL AS THE SORT OF REGULATORY
[00:08:44] LAWS AND AUTHORITIES THAT WE HAVE THAT THE GOVERNMENT HAS IN
[00:08:48] PLACE TO SHAPE THE DEVELOPMENT OF AI. SO, FOR EXAMPLE, WHY WERE THESE
[00:08:52] INCIDENTS ONLY DISCOVERED DAYS AFTER THEY HAPPENED?
[00:08:55] WHY WEREN'T LABS ENGAGED IN MORE CONTINUOUS MONITORING OF THE
[00:08:58] ACTIONS OF THEIR AGENTS? SHOULDN'T THERE BE MORE
[00:09:02] AFFIRMATIVE REQUIREMENTS ON LABS
[00:09:04] TO SHARE INCIDENT INFORMATION?
[00:09:06] TO DISCUSS WHAT GOVERNMENTS AND LABS SHOULD DO NEXT?
[00:09:09] I'M PLEASED TO WELCOME TO THE STAGE THREE EXPERTS ON THESE ISSUES.
[00:09:13] HELEN TONER IS EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF SEA, SET FOR THE
[00:09:16] CENTER FOR SECURITY AND EMERGING TECHNOLOGY.
[00:09:20] MACKENZIE ARNOLD IS MANAGING DIRECTOR OF U.S. POLICY AT LAW.
[00:09:24] AND MATT PERL IS DIRECTOR OF THE
[00:09:27] STRATEGIC TECHNOLOGIES PROGRAM
[00:09:29] HERE AT CSIS, WHICH IS ONE OF OUR SISTERS PROGRAM, A SISTER,
[00:09:33] PROGRAMS THAT THINKS A LOT ABOUT THE STRATEGIC IMPLICATIONS OF TECHNOLOGY, OF VARIOUS
[00:09:38] TECHNOLOGIES, INCLUDING QUANTUM IN CYBER.
[00:09:40] AS WITH THE PREVIOUS SESSION, WE'LL BE TAKING QUESTIONS.
[00:09:44] WE'LL BE LEAVING SOME TIME FOR QUESTIONS SO YOU CAN SCAN THE QR
[00:09:48] CODE ON THE SCREEN FOR THOSE IN THE AUDIENCE OR USE THE LINKS IN
[00:09:50] THE EVENT DESCRIPTION OR THE YOUTUBE PAGE.
[00:09:54] FOR THOSE WHO ARE JOINING US, VIRTUALLY. SO THANK YOU FOR JOINING ME
[00:09:58] TODAY, HELEN MACKENZIE AND MATT. AND I'M LOOKING FORWARD TO THE
[00:10:04] CONVERSATION.
[00:10:11] SORRY. SO HELEN, I WANTED TO START WITH
[00:10:15] YOU. SO WE JUST HEARD A REALLY GOOD TECHNICAL DESCRIPTION OF WHAT
[00:10:19] HAPPENED WITH HUGGING, FACE OPENING BREACH. AND I THINK THAT WAS A REALLY
[00:10:24] INFORMATIVE I'VE SINCE THAT HAPPENED. WE'VE HEARD ABOUT OTHER
[00:10:26] INCIDENTS, MOST NOTABLY THE
[00:10:29] INCIDENTS REPORTED BY MEDHA AND ANTHROPIC THAT INVOLVED SORT OF
[00:10:33] AN EXTERNAL VENDOR. SO I WANTED TO START WITH YOU
[00:10:37] AND SAY, YOU KNOW, WHAT SHOULD WE NOTE ABOUT WHAT'S DIFFERENT ABOUT THESE INCIDENTS AND WHAT
[00:10:41] DOES THAT TELL US ABOUT SORT OF
[00:10:43] THIS THIS ISSUE MORE BROADLY? YEAH, AND THANKS FOR HAVING ME.
[00:10:46] IT'S GREAT TO BE HERE WITH EVERYONE. THERE'S A LOT GOING ON HERE, SO
[00:10:50] I WILL TRY AND UNPACK THE DIFFERENT THINGS WE'VE LEARNED
[00:10:54] IN A RELATIVELY CONCISE WAY.
[00:10:56] MAYBE JUST A BEFORE I START TO
[00:10:58] SAY I THINK SOMETHING WE'LL BE TALKING ABOUT ON THIS PANEL,
[00:11:02] WHICH DIFFERS A LITTLE BIT FROM IAN'S PRESENTATION THAT WAS A FANTASTIC EXPLANATION OF FROM
[00:11:05] THE CYBER SECURITY SIDE, FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE VICTIM OF
[00:11:09] THE CYBER ATTACK, KIND OF WHAT ARE THE CYBERSECURITY
[00:11:13] CONSIDERING HERE? I THINK THERE'S SEVERAL OTHER
[00:11:15] ANGLES OF THESE INCIDENTS AS WELL. AND A REALLY IMPORTANT ONE IS
[00:11:19] WHAT DOES THIS TELL US ABOUT HOW AI IS DEVELOPING AND WHAT IS HAPPENING KIND OF AT THE
[00:11:22] FRONTIERS OF AI PROGRESS, WHICH IS A LITTLE BIT SEPARATE FROM
[00:11:26] WHAT DO YOU DO IF YOU ARE, YOU KNOW, THE VICTIM OF ONE OF THESE ATTACKS?
[00:11:30] SO BUT TO YOUR QUESTION OF WHAT ARE THE OTHER INCIDENTS THAT HAVE COME OUT? MAYBE WE'LL GO CHRONOLOGICALLY.
[00:11:33] AND I THINK THERE'S SORT OF THREE PIECES THAT GET INCREASINGLY CONCERNING.
[00:11:38] SO THE FIRST BEING SOME OF THE ENTROPIC AND METTA INCIDENTS
[00:11:41] THAT WE LEARNED ABOUT. THEN THE UK GOVERNMENT RELEASES
[00:11:45] INFORMATION AND THEN OPENING AI, RELEASING MORE INFORMATION ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED WITH HACKING FACE.
[00:11:49] SO FIRST WE DID LEARN ABOUT IT. TURNED OUT THAT AFTER THE
[00:11:53] OPENING AI HUGGING FACE ATTACK
[00:11:55] CAME, CAME OUT ANTHROPIC, WENT BACK AND LOOKED AT SOME OF THEIR
[00:11:58] PAST TESTING RECORDS, AND THEY LOOKED AT MORE THAN 100,000
[00:12:01] TESTS THAT HAD BEEN RUN SO THAT, YOU KNOW, THE SCALE THAT THIS IS
[00:12:04] HAPPENING AT THAT THE SCALE THAT THESE COMPANIES ARE OPERATING AT IS REALLY WORTH KNOWING ABOUT.
[00:12:08] THE NUMBER OF TESTS THEY'RE RUNNING, THE NUMBER OF
[00:12:12] REINFORCEMENT LEARNING KIND OF TRAINING RUNS THAT THEY'RE DOING. THEY LOOKED AT MORE THAN 100,000
[00:12:15] RUN, SO THEY HAVEN'T LOOKED AT THAT CLOSELY BEFORE AND FOUND THAT THEY HAD ACTUALLY ALSO HAD
[00:12:19] THEIR THEIR SYSTEMS HACK INTO OTHER COMPANIES.
[00:12:21] THAT WASN'T SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN IN THIS CASE. IT TURNED OUT IT WAS LESS THAT
[00:12:25] THE AI HAD KIND OF ACTIVELY BROKEN OUT OF ANTHROPIC AND MORE
[00:12:28] THAT THEY HAD SET UP THE TEST WRONG. AND SO THE MODEL HAD ACCESS TO THE OPEN INTERNET, EVEN THOUGH
[00:12:32] IT WASN'T SUPPOSED TO CAME OUT LATER, THAT THE SAME THING HAD
[00:12:36] HAPPENED AT OPENAI WITH THE SAME VENDOR. THIS ONE PROVIDER CALLED A REGULAR AND THE SAME THING HAD HAPPENED AT METTA.
[00:12:40] SO THESE WERE THESE WERE INCIDENTS WHERE SORT OF SLOPPY SETUP OF THESE TESTING
[00:12:45] ENVIRONMENTS HAD GIVEN THE MODELS MORE ACCESS AND THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO HAVE AND THEY WENT OUT AND, YOU KNOW, MAYBE DID
[00:12:49] FELONIES. WHO KNOWS IF IT COUNTS AS A FELONY, IF IT WAS AN AI BEHIND IT, BECAUSE THAT WAS SORT OF THE
[00:12:53] FIRST PIECE WE LEARNED ABOUT. THEN THERE WAS A REALLY
[00:12:55] INTERESTING REPORT THAT CAME OUT OF THE UK, AI SECURITY
[00:12:59] INSTITUTE, AN INCIDENT REPORT WHICH SIMILARLY I THINK THEY WERE WATCHING CLOSELY FOR THIS
[00:13:02] STUFF AFTER THE OPENING. BUT THIS REPORT REALLY STANDS OUT BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT A COMPANY.
[00:13:06] THEY'RE AN INDEPENDENT GOVERNMENT ORGANIZATION. AND SO THEY VERY QUICKLY AND
[00:13:10] VERY THOROUGHLY RELEASED A LOT OF INFORMATION ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED.
[00:13:13] AND THEY DESCRIBED MULTIPLE INCIDENTS OF DIFFERENT MODELS DOING UNDESIRABLE THINGS AND
[00:13:18] TESTING. THE MOST NOTABLE IN MY MIND WAS THIS ANTHROPIC.
[00:13:22] I THINK IT WAS MITHRAS. I FORGET IF IT WAS MITHRAS OR FABLE, BUT ONE OF THE MOST
[00:13:25] ADVANCED ANTHROPIC MODELS BEING GIVEN A CYBER SECURITY TEST AND
[00:13:29] DECIDING THAT THE BEST WAY TO CARRY OUT THAT CYBERSECURITY TEST WAS TO RUN A SOCIAL
[00:13:34] MANIPULATION CAMPAIGN ON REAL PEOPLE. YOU KNOW, WHO ARE REAL OPEN
[00:13:37] SOURCE SOFTWARE MAINTAINERS.
[00:13:39] AND SO IT TRIED TO GET MALICIOUS
[00:13:41] CODE ACCEPTED INTO THIS OPEN SOURCE SOFTWARE.
[00:13:45] IT SET UP MULTIPLE ACCOUNTS, YOU KNOW, CALLED SOC PUPPET SOCK PUPPET ACCOUNT.
[00:13:48] SO IT HAD ONE ACCOUNT THAT WAS TRYING TO SUGGEST THE CHANGES, ANOTHER ACCOUNT THAT WAS COMING IN AND SAYING, WOW, THESE
[00:13:52] CHANGES LOOK SO GREAT. IT HAD EMAIL ACCOUNTS THAT IT WAS EMAILING THE PEOPLE INVOLVED. SO WAS THIS SORT OF PRETTY
[00:13:57] INVOLVED TO ATTEMPT TO DECEIVE HUMANS? AND THIS WAS A MODEL THAT HAD IN
[00:14:01] PRINCIPLE HAD GONE THROUGH SO CALLED ALIGNMENT TRAINING. SO IT WAS SUPPOSED TO KNOW THAT
[00:14:05] IT WASN'T SUPPOSED TO DECEIVE HUMANS, IT WAS SUPPOSED TO UNDERSTAND THESE THINGS ABOUT ITS ROLE.
[00:14:10] THAT WAS SORT OF THE PART TO THAT. WHAT WE HEARD FROM THE UK GOVERNMENT. AND THEN PART THREE, WHICH I
[00:14:13] REALLY THINK IS THE CRAZIEST, WHICH IAN JUST WROTE TOWARDS IN HIS CONVERSATION AT HIS
[00:14:18] PRESENTATION AS WELL, IS WHAT WE'VE LEARNED FROM OPENAI ABOUT WHAT WAS HAPPENING IN THE LEAD
[00:14:21] UP TO THE HUGGING FACE ATTACK,
[00:14:24] WHICH IS THIS WASN'T JUST ONE ROGUE AGENT THAT JUST DECIDED
[00:14:28] SORT OF OUT OF THE BLUE TO GO AND ATTACK ANOTHER COMPANY. BUT IT TURNED OUT THAT ACTUALLY
[00:14:32] FOR TWO MONTHS BEFORE THIS HAPPENED, THEY HAD BEEN HAVING
[00:14:34] THESE SYSTEMS, ATTACK FAILURES OF SECURITY AND CONTROL OF THEIR
[00:14:38] OWN AGENTS AND THEIR OWN AGENTS HAD BEEN HAD FOUND WAYS TO LEAVE
[00:14:42] NOTES FOR EACH OTHER INSIDE OPENAI'S INFRASTRUCTURE AND GIVE
[00:14:45] EACH OTHER TIPS ON HOW TO GET OUT ONTO THE OPEN INTERNET, EVEN THOUGH THEY WEREN'T SUPPOSED TO BE.
[00:14:49] THEY WERE. THEY WERE KIND OF WRITING MESSAGES LIKE PRETTY CRAZY.
[00:14:52] I REALLY ALSO, YOU KNOW, SECOND AND RECOMMENDATION TO GO WATCH THE -- FACE ATTACK. OKAY.
[00:14:57] TRYING TO WRAP THIS UP. WHAT DOES THIS TELL US? I THINK ONE THING IT CLEARLY
[00:15:00] TELLS US IS THE SECURITY AND CONTROL PRACTICES OF THESE
[00:15:04] COMPANIES RIGHT NOW ARE VERY LAX AND ARE NOT AT ALL SUFFICIENT.
[00:15:07] I THINK SOMETIMES PEOPLE SOME OF THE COMMENTARY I'VE SEEN HAS
[00:15:10] OPPOSED, YOU KNOW, WELL, WAS IT REALLY THAT THEY I WAS SO ADVANCED OR WAS IT JUST THAT THE
[00:15:13] COMPANY WAS CARELESS? AND TO ME, IT SEEMS OBVIOUS YOU CAN HAVE BOTH. LIKE THE A.I. IS GETTING MORE
[00:15:17] ADVANCED AND THEREFORE IT'S MORE IMPORTANT THAT THE COMPANIES NOT BE CARELESS.
[00:15:21] SO THAT IS ONE IMPORTANT DYNAMIC. I THINK ANOTHER THING WE'RE SEEING FROM ALL OF THESE
[00:15:24] DIFFERENT INCIDENTS IS WE'RE STARTING TO SEE IN PRACTICE WHAT
[00:15:28] HAS PREVIOUSLY BEEN A THEORETICAL THING, WHICH IS AS
[00:15:32] WE MAKE A.I., THAT CAN BE MORE AND MORE USEFUL, THAT CAN DO MORE AND MORE COMPLICATED THINGS.
[00:15:36] IT'S GOING TO LEARN THESE UNINTENDED STRATEGIES TO DO THAT THAT WE DIDN'T WE DIDN'T WANT IT TO.
[00:15:39] SO STRATEGIES LIKE BREAKING OUT OF CONTAINMENT STRATEGIES LIKE DECEIVING PEOPLE ARE PRETTY
[00:15:44] USEFUL FOR A LOT OF DIFFERENT GOALS. YOU MIGHT GIVE IT. AND THE THIRD, YOU KNOW, A
[00:15:48] REALLY BIG TAKEAWAY FROM THESE FOR ME, WHICH I GUESS WE'LL GET TO A LITTLE MORE LATER AS WELL,
[00:15:52] IS THESE COMPANIES ARE MAKING PRETTY RISKY DECISIONS.
[00:15:56] AND, YOU KNOW, CARRYING OUT RISKY RESEARCH PROGRAMS INTERNALLY INSIDE THEIR OWN
[00:16:00] WALLS. AND SO IF OUR APPROACH TO OVERSIGHT REGULATION IS ONLY
[00:16:03] FOCUSED ON WHAT DO THEY RELEASED TO THE PUBLIC, WE'RE GOING TO
[00:16:07] ACTUALLY BE MISSING A HUGE PIECE OF THE PUZZLE. SO THIS GETS CALLED KIND OF INTERNAL DEPLOYMENT, I WOULD THINK OF IT.
[00:16:11] YEAH, SORT OF DANGEROUS RESEARCH INSIDE OUT COMPANIES. WE NEED TO HAVE MUCH MORE
[00:16:14] VISIBILITY INTO THAT MUCH MORE ABILITY TO UNDERSTAND WHAT THEY'RE DOING, HOW THEY'RE
[00:16:18] MAKING DECISIONS, HOW THAT'S GOING TO AFFECT THE REST OF US
[00:16:20] THINKS THAT'S REALLY HELPFUL. FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO ARE
[00:16:24] INTERESTED IN LEARNING MORE ABOUT THE OPEN AIR INCIDENT,
[00:16:26] THERE WAS A PRESENTATION BY A COUPLE OF OPEN RESEARCHERS AT
[00:16:31] BLACKHAT, WHICH IS WHICH IS A SORT OF HACKING CONFERENCE.
[00:16:34] IT'S ON YOUTUBE AND SO THEY GO INTO MORE DETAIL ABOUT THIS,
[00:16:38] INCLUDING SOME DETAILS ABOUT HOW THE AGENTS ARE ESSENTIALLY CREATED A MESSAGE BOARD TO TALK
[00:16:41] TO EACH OTHER OVER TIME.
[00:16:44] SO MCKENZIE, HELEN'S COMMENT,
[00:16:48] SORT OF SEGUE INTO WHAT I WANTED TO ASK YOU ABOUT, WHICH IS THAT
[00:16:51] AFTER THESE INCIDENTS, YOU DID SOME SCHOLARSHIP ABOUT THE
[00:16:54] LIMITATIONS OF OUR CURRENT INCIDENT REPORTING REGIMES.
[00:16:57] I THINK IN THE US THAT'S HAPPENING PRETTY PRIMARILY AT
[00:17:01] THE STATE LEVEL RIGHT NOW. SO I'D LOVE IF YOU COULD WALK US
[00:17:05] THROUGH THE ARGUMENT ABOUT SORT OF WHAT YOU FOUND IN TERMS OF THE LIMITATIONS OF THESE LAWS.
[00:17:09] WHAT THEY'RE DOING WRONG, WHAT THEY'RE DOING RIGHT, AND THEN WHERE WE MIGHT GO IN THE FUTURE?
[00:17:13] YEAH. EVERY ONCE IN A WHILE IN POLICY, YOU END UP WITH THIS VERY LARGE
[00:17:16] GAP BETWEEN WHAT POLICYMAKERS AND THE PUBLIC THINK.
[00:17:19] THE LAW DOES AND WHAT IT ACTUALLY DOES. AND THIS IS DEFINITELY ONE OF
[00:17:23] THOSE CASES. SO AFTER YOU HEARD EVERYTHING THAT HELEN JUST SAID, RIGHT.
[00:17:27] I THINK THE AVERAGE PERSON'S EXPECTATION IS, WELL, OBVIOUSLY
[00:17:30] AN EVENT LIKE THIS WOULD QUALIFY FOR INCIDENT REPORTING. RIGHT.
[00:17:33] AND THEN MANY POLICYMAKERS WOULD THINK AND YOU'D BE ABLE TO ASK
[00:17:37] AND FOLLOW UP QUESTIONS. RIGHT. BECAUSE OF ALL THESE IMPORTANT
[00:17:40] POINTS AROUND HOW MUCH IS THIS ABOUT INTERNAL SAFETY PROCEDURES
[00:17:43] VERSUS WHAT DOES THIS SAY ABOUT THE MODEL'S CAPABILITIES? WAS THIS A WEAK SANDBOX?
[00:17:47] WAS IT HIGHLY INCENTIVIZED FOR THIS TO HAPPEN? WHAT WHAT CONSTRAINTS AND
[00:17:50] GUARDRAILS WERE REMOVED RIGHT. ALL THESE THINGS MATTER.
[00:17:53] AND SO YOU EXPECT SOME AMOUNT OF FOLLOW. RIGHT.
[00:17:56] AND THEN YOU'D ALSO MAYBE EXPECT THAT SOME OF THAT INFORMATION
[00:17:59] COULD ULTIMATELY BE REVEALED TO THE PUBLIC. I THINK ONE OF THE BIG THINGS
[00:18:02] WE'VE SEEN IN THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS IS THAT WE'VE ACTUALLY
[00:18:05] LEARNED A LOT FROM SEEING PEOPLE ARGUE ONLINE ABOUT WHAT EXACTLY
[00:18:08] TO MAKE OUT OF ALL THESE EVENTS. RIGHT. AND WE'RE SMARTER BECAUSE OF
[00:18:12] THAT. AND UNFORTUNATELY, THE STATE OF LAW IS NOT THERE.
[00:18:16] AND SO THESE EVENTS LIKELY DON'T
[00:18:18] QUALIFY UNDER THE STATE LAWS THAT MANY OF YOU HAVE HEARD ABOUT.
[00:18:22] 53 RAISE SB 315 IN ILLINOIS.
[00:18:24] I CAN GO INTO THAT IN A SECOND. EVEN IF THEY DID QUALIFY,
[00:18:28] THOUGH, AND MAYBE THIS IS EVEN MORE IMPORTANT, WHAT THE STATES WOULD BE ENTITLED TO IS A PLAIN
[00:18:32] LANGUAGE SUMMARY OF WHAT HAPPENED AND THE DATE OF THE EVENT.
[00:18:36] THAT DOESN'T SOUND SUPER SATISFYING FOR ANSWERING ALL OF THOSE NUANCE QUESTIONS.
[00:18:39] AND THEN MOST OF THEM JUST HAVE
[00:18:40] A GENERAL CONFIDENTIALITY PROVISION THAT DOESN'T ALLOW FOR
[00:18:44] PUBLIC SHARING ON THESE THINGS. I'M NOW GOING BACK TO THE FIRST PART, RIGHT.
[00:18:49] DO THESE EVENTS QUALIFY? THIS IS THE PART WHERE IF ANYONE
[00:18:51] WANTS TO SEE MY LAWFARE PIECE GOES INTO A LOT OF DETAIL ON ON
[00:18:55] THE NITTY GRITTY LAW HERE. BUT THE BASIC VERSION OF THIS IS THAT WHEN THOSE LAWS WERE
[00:18:59] WRITTEN, YOU WOULD THINK THAT
[00:19:01] THE THE QUALIFICATION FOR WHETHER YOU REPORT INFORMATION
[00:19:05] MIGHT MIGHT BE LOW INITIALLY. RIGHT. YOU DON'T ACTUALLY KNOW WHAT'S
[00:19:09] HAPPENING WITH THE EVENTS AND YOU'RE TRYING TO GET THIS INFORMATION TO FIGURE OUT WHETHER IT IS IMPORTANT. RIGHT.
[00:19:13] INSTEAD, THESE LAWS ARE WRITTEN WITH THESE VERY, VERY HIGH
[00:19:15] THRESHOLDS FOR WHAT CAN ACTUALLY BE REPORTED. SO THERE'S FOUR PRIMARY WAYS YOU
[00:19:19] CAN QUALIFY UNDER THESE STATE LAWS.
[00:19:22] THREE OF THEM REQUIRE BODILY INJURY OR DEATH. RIGHT.
[00:19:25] AND WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT CYBER INCIDENTS, THERE WILL BE A LOT OF INCIDENTS THAT DON'T INVOLVE THOSE THINGS THAT YOU
[00:19:30] CERTAINLY WANT INFO ON. AND THEN THE LAST CATEGORY,
[00:19:32] WHICH MIGHT APPLY HERE, IT'S LIKE A WHOLE PARAGRAPH OF, YOU KNOW, FOUR DIFFERENT CONDITIONS
[00:19:36] THAT HAVE TO BE SATISFIED. BUT THE IMPORTANT PART IS THAT YOU WOULD HAVE TO SHOW A
[00:19:40] MATERIAL INCREASE IN CATASTROPHIC RISK AND YOU WOULD
[00:19:42] HAVE TO SHOW THAT THIS BEHAVIOR WAS DECEPTION THAT WAS AIMED BY
[00:19:47] THE MODEL AT THE DEVELOPER. AND IF YOU DON'T SATISFY THOSE
[00:19:50] CONDITIONS, THE INFORMATION CAN'T BE REPORTED. SO I THINK THE BEST READ OF THIS
[00:19:53] IS THAT IT DOESN'T QUALIFY. YOU CAN MAYBE COME UP WITH A
[00:19:57] PLAUSIBLE CASE THAT IT DOES, BUT YOU SHOULD REALLY LIKE SIT BACK
[00:20:00] AND THINK, IS THAT THE STANDARD THAT I WANT? JUST TO GET A BASIC BIT OF
[00:20:04] INFORMATION IN THE FIRST PLACE. AND I THINK THE ANSWER IS NO.
[00:20:06] AND SO TO SORT OF SUM THIS UP AND THINK WHAT IS THE DIRECTION
[00:20:10] GOING FORWARD? THERE'S AN ELEMENT AROUND MAKING
[00:20:12] SURE THAT THE INITIAL CATEGORY
[00:20:14] OF WHAT'S BEING REPORTED IS BROAD ENOUGH TO CAPTURE THINGS
[00:20:17] THAT ARE CONCERNED AND INTERESTING BUT HAVEN'T YET
[00:20:21] CAUSED HARM TO SOMEONE. THERE'S AN ELEMENT AROUND, OH, YOU ACTUALLY NEED INVESTIGATORY
[00:20:26] POWERS OR SOME AMOUNT OF RULE MAKING SO THAT YOU CAN ACTUALLY FIGURE OUT THE DETAILS AFTER THE
[00:20:30] FACT. AND THEN YOU HAVE TO HAVE SOME SYSTEM OF FIGURING OUT WHAT PARTS OF THAT ARE GOING TO BE
[00:20:34] REVEALED TO THE PUBLIC AND WHAT WON'T. AND OBVIOUSLY, THERE'S NOT ONE SIZE FITS ALL ANSWER HERE.
[00:20:38] I THINK THE ANSWER IS GOING TO LOOK LIKE SOME SORT OF TIERED APPROACH WHERE YOU PROVIDE
[00:20:42] INITIAL NOTIFICATION AND THEN DEPENDING ON HOW CONCERNING IT
[00:20:45] IS, YOU CAN FOLLOW UP TO DIFFERENT DEGREES. BUT THAT'S NOT WHERE WE'RE AT
[00:20:48] RIGHT NOW. MATT, I WANTED TO TURN TO YOU NEXT.
[00:20:52] I THINK, YOU KNOW, AS WE HEARD
[00:20:54] FROM IAN'S PRESENTATION, THERE
[00:20:57] IS THIS REAL ISSUE THAT THAT THE
[00:20:59] US GOVERNMENT IS GRAPPLING WITH, WHICH IS HOW TO MANAGE THE DUAL
[00:21:02] USE CAPABILITIES OF THESE REALLY POWERFUL CYBER MODELS.
[00:21:05] SO RIGHT NOW, THE SORT OF
[00:21:07] SOLUTION WE'VE ARRIVED AT A SORT
[00:21:11] OF COBBLED TOGETHER IS THIS IDEA THAT LABS WILL VOLUNTARILY
[00:21:13] RELEASE THEIR MOST POWERFUL MODELS WITH THE CYBER SAFEGUARDS
[00:21:17] REMOVED ONLY TO SELECT PARTNERS.
[00:21:19] AND THERE THEY'RE GOING THROUGH
[00:21:22] THE PROCESS OF FIGURING OUT WHO THOSE PARTNERS ARE AND WORKING
[00:21:25] WITH THEM. AND THAT LEAVES OUT COMPANIES WHO MIGHT NEED THEIR SERVICES
[00:21:28] LIKE HUGGING FACE.
[00:21:30] SO SO MY QUESTION IS, WHAT WHAT
[00:21:32] CAN THE US GOVERNMENT DO TO SORT
[00:21:34] OF FACILITATE MORE ACCESSIBILITY TO THESE TOOLS WHILE STILL
[00:21:39] MANAGING SOME OF THE RISKS IF THESE TOOLS GET INTO THE WRONG HANDS?
[00:21:42] YES, I DO THINK THE ROLE OF THE US GOVERNMENT IS ESSENTIAL HERE.
[00:21:45] I THINK THAT IT STARTS WITH
[00:21:47] HAVING A SYSTEMATIC APPROACH INSTEAD OF SORT OF CASE BY CASE
[00:21:51] AD HOC APPROACH. AND IT STARTS WITH HAVING AT THE
[00:21:54] HIGHEST LEVELS CONVENING ALL OF THE RELEVANT PLAYERS.
[00:21:58] AND OF COURSE THAT INVOLVES THE FRONTIER LABS, LARGE COMPANIES,
[00:22:01] BUT IT ALSO NEEDS TO INCLUDE
[00:22:02] OPEN SOURCE MAINTAINERS, SMALL
[00:22:05] ORGANIZATIONS, CRITICAL INFRASTRUCTURE AND SO ON, SO THAT ALL OF THE PARTS OF THE
[00:22:09] ECOSYSTEM HAVE INPUT INTO THE PROCESS.
[00:22:13] AND THEN I THINK, YOU KNOW, SETTING COMMON TECHNICAL
[00:22:16] STANDARDS AND BUILDING SORT OF DEFENSIVE, SHARED DEFENSIVE
[00:22:20] CAPABILITY AND THEN MAKING SURE
[00:22:22] THAT ACCESS IS IS BROAD BASED.
[00:22:25] YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT ONE OF
[00:22:28] THE ONE OF THE LESSONS OF HOW
[00:22:30] YOU FACE IS THAT THERE ARE SORT OF TWO ASPECTS OF IT.
[00:22:33] ONE IS WHO SHOULD BE VERIFY THIS
[00:22:36] HAVING ACCESS AND THEN IT'S SORT OF WHAT DOES THAT ACCESS GET YOU
[00:22:40] RIGHT. AND I THINK ONE OF THE LESSONS
[00:22:41] IS THAT THAT INITIAL ACCESS NEEDS TO BE FAIRLY BROAD BASED,
[00:22:46] RIGHT? IT NEEDS TO INVOLVE A LOT OF FOLKS, A LOT OF SMALLER
[00:22:51] ORGANIZATIONS WHO WHO ARE TRUSTED AND HAVE BEEN VETTED.
[00:22:53] IT ALSO NEEDS TO INCLUDE A LOT OF ALLIES AND PARTNERS AND
[00:22:57] COMPANIES THAT ARE BASED AND ALLIES AND PARTNERS. I THINK ONE OF THE UNFORTUNATE
[00:23:00] THINGS ABOUT THE CLOUD METRICS PREVIEW SITUATION AND THE USE OF
[00:23:04] EXPORT CONTROL WAS, WAS THAT SEND A BAD MESSAGE TO A LOT OF
[00:23:07] OUR ALLIES AND PARTNERS. AND SO HOW DO WE MAKE SURE THAT
[00:23:10] THAT ACCESS IS BROAD BASED? BUT THEN THERE'S A SEPARATE
[00:23:13] SECOND QUESTION THAT'S DISTINCT OF LIKE, WHAT IS THAT ACCESS
[00:23:16] ACTUALLY GET YOU? AND THERE I THINK WE NEED TO BE MUCH MORE CAREFUL AND
[00:23:20] CALIBRATED. BUT ALSO LEARNING FROM HUGGING
[00:23:22] FACE ALSO DYNAMIC AND RAPID AND
[00:23:24] HOW WE RESPOND AND AND HAVE THE
[00:23:27] ABILITY TO MAKE ADJUST MENTS IN
[00:23:29] TERMS OF WHO GETS WHAT TYPES OF
[00:23:31] ACCESS DEPENDING ON THAT.
[00:23:34] SO I DO THINK THAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IN TERMS OF
[00:23:36] ESTABLISHING SORT OF A TRUSTED
[00:23:39] DEFENDER PATHWAY AND HAVING
[00:23:42] PRECLEARANCE FOR ORGANIZATIONS
[00:23:44] IS IS REALLY ESSENTIAL AND ALSO
[00:23:48] WORKING WITH INDUSTRY ON HOW ACCESS SHOULD BE MISSION SCOPED
[00:23:52] AND HOW THEY ARE GOING TO RAPIDLY ADJUST AS NEEDED.
[00:23:56] I THINK OBVIOUSLY THERE'S THE COMMON SECURITY BASELINE THAT'S
[00:23:59] ALL PART OF THIS, THAT NEST IS ALREADY WORKING ON.
[00:24:02] AND CASEY ALREADY WORKING ON. AND SO THAT'S WORK THAT WE JUST NEED TO SEE DONE.
[00:24:05] AND FOLKS NEED TO WORK WITH THEM TO TO MAKE SURE THAT IN TERMS OF
[00:24:09] ON TECH SECURITY, ID AND AND SO
[00:24:14] ON, IT'S DONE WELL. IN TERMS OF ACCESS, OBVIOUSLY,
[00:24:18] THE GOVERNMENT HAS A ROLE IN
[00:24:20] PROVIDING PUBLIC GOODS IN A WAY THAT INDUSTRY CAN, RIGHT?
[00:24:23] AND SO THINGS LIKE NOT ONLY
[00:24:27] INDEPENDENT TESTING, BUT, YOU
[00:24:28] KNOW, HAVING RED TEAM EXERCISES,
[00:24:32] HAVING ACCESS BY SMALLER
[00:24:34] ORGANIZATIONS, CRITICAL INFRASTRUCTURE AND SO ON, HAVING
[00:24:38] SUBSIDIZED ACCESS TO THESE TOOLS. I THINK IT'S REALLY ESSENTIAL
[00:24:42] FOR THE GOVERNMENT TO DO. AND THEN I THINK THE LAST THING ON ACCESS IS THAT THE FEDERAL
[00:24:47] GOVERNMENT NEEDS TO ENSURE THAT
[00:24:49] THIS IS ALL OPERATIONAL BEFORE SOMETHING HAPPENS. RIGHT.
[00:24:53] THAT THE SORT OF CONTACTS AND
[00:24:55] MUSCLE MEMORY IS ALREADY THERE, THAT THE YOU KNOW, THERE ARE
[00:24:58] SORT OF STANDARD CONTRACTUAL PROVISIONS.
[00:25:00] THERE ARE EMERGENCY CONTACTS.
[00:25:02] PEOPLE HAVE WORKED TOGETHER. OBVIOUSLY, A LOT OF THAT WORK IS
[00:25:05] GOING TO BE SOMEWHAT OUTSIDE THE SCOPE OF GOVERNMENT.
[00:25:09] BUT I THINK MAKING SURE THAT IT'S OCCURRED SO THAT WHEN
[00:25:11] SOMETHING HAPPENS THAT YOU'RE NOT, YOU KNOW, HAVING LAWYERS
[00:25:15] NEGOTIATE ABOUT HOW IT'S GOING TO BE SOLVED, THAT YOU ACTUALLY
[00:25:18] JUST HAVE THE OPERATIONAL FOLKS
[00:25:20] WHO ARE SOLVING IT, THAT'S
[00:25:24] REALLY HELPFUL. HELEN I WANTED THAT TURN BACK TO YOU, I THINK.
[00:25:27] SO ONE THING TO NOTE IS THAT THE LABS HAVE BEEN RESPONDING TO
[00:25:30] THESE INCIDENTS TO ME, THE THING
[00:25:32] THAT'S MOST NOTABLE IS THAT
[00:25:35] OPENING EYES PUT SORT OF A TEMPORARY PAUSE ON REINFORCEMENT
[00:25:38] LEARNING TRAINING OF OF ITS MOST
[00:25:42] POWERFUL MODELS. AND YOU SORT OF WRITTEN OR
[00:25:45] SPOKEN POSITIVELY ABOUT THIS DEVELOPMENT. I THINK OF ALL THE PEOPLE IN
[00:25:48] THIS ROOM AND ONLINE, YOU PROBABLY HAVE THE MOST DIRECT
[00:25:51] EXPERIENCE SORT OF CONDUCTING OVERSIGHT OF THE FRONTIER LABS.
[00:25:55] I'M REALLY CURIOUS. YOU KNOW, THIS WAS A VOLUNTARY MOVE ON THE PART OF OPEN.
[00:25:59] I I'M CURIOUS ABOUT SORT OF WHAT YOU SEE AS THE INCENTIVES THAT
[00:26:02] ARE THAT CAN OR DO MOTIVATE LABS
[00:26:05] TO BE MORE SAFE AND THAT CAN
[00:26:08] THAT CAN MOTIVATE THEM TO BE MORE RESPONSIBLE WHEN IT COMES
[00:26:11] TO ISSUES LIKE THE ISSUES WE'RE HERE TO TALK ABOUT. YEAH.
[00:26:14] SO MAYBE SO JUST BRIEFLY RECAP WHAT HAPPENED HERE. BASICALLY IN THE WAKE OF THIS
[00:26:18] HUGGING FACE ATTACK, I THINK A WEEK OR TWO LATER, A STATEMENT
[00:26:22] CAME OUT AND I'M SURE MANY FOLKS HERE IN THE AIR SPACE AND HAVE
[00:26:26] KIND OF GROUP OPEN LETTER FATIGUE LIKE THE REST OF US. BUT THIS WAS A AN OPEN LETTER
[00:26:30] THAT I THINK REALLY STOOD OUT
[00:26:32] BECAUSE IT WAS SIGNED BY MORE
[00:26:35] THAN 1300 EMPLOYEES OF LEADING AI COMPANIES.
[00:26:37] SO IT WASN'T YOUR TYPICAL KIND OF ADVOCATES. IT WAS IT WAS REALLY PEOPLE INSIDE THE INDUSTRY SIGNING THIS LETTER.
[00:26:43] AND WHAT THE LETTER BASICALLY SAYS IS WE INSIDE THE AI
[00:26:47] INDUSTRY, WE DON'T FEEL LIKE WE HAVE A BRAKE PEDAL.
[00:26:49] WE DON'T FEEL LIKE WE HAVE A WAY TO SLOW DOWN IF WE NEEDED TO SLOW DOWN.
[00:26:52] AND WE THINK WE MIGHT NEED TO SLOW DOWN AT SOME POINT SOON. THAT'S BASICALLY WHAT IT SAYS.
[00:26:56] AND SO THEY'RE KIND OF ASKING FOR HELP FROM GOVERNMENT, FROM
[00:26:58] THE PUBLIC AND SO ON IN FINDING
[00:27:01] A WAY TO PACE THE FRONTIER OF DEVELOPMENT.
[00:27:05] AND THEN I THINK WAS A WEEK OR TWO AFTER THAT, THAT OPENING I PUT OUT A KIND OF A BIG PRESS
[00:27:09] RELEASE IN A SORT OF PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENT THAT THEY WERE PACING THEIR OWN RESEARCH AND
[00:27:13] THAT THEY WERE DOING THIS NOT JUST BY KIND OF DELAYING THE
[00:27:17] RELEASE OF A MODEL, BUT ACTUALLY DELAYING THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE MODEL.
[00:27:21] AND I THINK IT'S EASY IN D.C. TO MISS THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THAT. A LOT OF PEOPLE THINK OF THESE
[00:27:25] COMPANIES AS KIND OF CHOPPED UP COMPANIES THAT ARE SELLING PRODUCTS, BUT THEY THINK OF
[00:27:29] THEMSELVES AS AGI. RESEARCH COMPANIES. THEY THINK OF THEMSELVES AS
[00:27:32] THEIR CORE MISSION AND THE CORE OF WHAT THEY ARE DOING IS
[00:27:36] BUILDING MORE AND MORE CAPABLE AI SYSTEMS. SO ACTUALLY DELAYING THEIR
[00:27:39] RESEARCH ROADMAP IS A BIGGER SACRIFICE THAN DELAYING THE
[00:27:43] RELEASE OF THE PRODUCT. AND SO THEN YOU ASKED ABOUT KIND OF THE INCENTIVES AT PLAY HERE
[00:27:47] AND WHAT'S GOING ON, THE KIND OF BASELINE STATE, THE GROUND LEVEL
[00:27:50] INCENTIVE IS GO FAST. AND THAT'S A COMMERCIAL
[00:27:54] INCENTIVE. IT'S A COMPETITIVE INCENTIVE. MORE BROADLY, AND IT DRIVES A
[00:27:57] LOT OF THE BEHAVIOR WE SEE FROM FROM ALL OF THESE COMPANIES IS
[00:28:01] NEEDING TO GET OUT THERE NEXT MODEL NEEDING TO SHOW THAT
[00:28:04] THEY'RE AT THE FRONTIER SO THEY CAN RECRUIT THE BEST TALENT
[00:28:07] NEEDED TO CONVINCE INVESTORS
[00:28:09] THAT THEY ARE GOING FAST ENOUGH MAYBE TO NOT FALL BEHIND RIVALS.
[00:28:13] WHETHER THAT'S US RIVALS OR THE PROSPECT OF CHINA IS ALWAYS KIND OF LOOMING IN THE IN THE
[00:28:17] REARVIEW MIRROR PRETTY, PRETTY CLOSE AT THIS POINT. SO ONE INCENTIVE IS LIKE GO FAST, BUT FAST AS POSSIBLE.
[00:28:21] AND SO THEN WHAT ARE THE INCENTIVES TO NOT JUST GO AS
[00:28:24] FAST AS POSSIBLE ALL THE TIME?
[00:28:26] I THINK SOME COVERAGE OF THIS SORT OF PACING HAS HAS SORT OF
[00:28:29] PLAYED UP THE YOU KNOW, THIS IS THE, YOU KNOW, THE WISDOM OF THE
[00:28:34] LEADERSHIP. I MAY BE PREDICTABLY A LITTLE SKEPTICAL OF THAT BEING THE
[00:28:37] PRIMARY DRIVER HERE. I DO THINK THERE'S, YOU KNOW, YOU KNOW, CREDIT WHERE IT'S DUE,
[00:28:42] BUT I ALSO THINK THAT THEY ARE SUBJECT BOTH TO PRESSURE FROM
[00:28:46] CORPORATE CUSTOMERS. SO IT'S ACTUALLY IT'S CRAZY TO ME.
[00:28:50] SOME PEOPLE COMMENTING ON THIS STUFF SAY THAT THIS IS ALL MARKETING HYPE AND IT'S SUPPOSED TO JUICE VALUATIONS.
[00:28:54] THE IDEA THAT YOU WOULD SAY, HEY, IF YOU USE OUR MODELS, THEY MIGHT ACCIDENTALLY LIKE CREATE
[00:28:58] AN INFESTATION INSIDE OUR INFRASTRUCTURE THAT YOU HAVE TO
[00:29:01] WIPE MULTIPLE COMPUTING CLUSTERS ON, LIKE RESTART THEM FROM SCRATCH, THAT WE HAVE FACE DEAD.
[00:29:04] LIKE THAT'S NOT A SELLING POINT. SO ONE INCENTIVE IS WANTING TO
[00:29:07] BE ABLE TO TELL MAJOR ENTERPRISE CUSTOMERS LIKE, YES, YOU CAN USE
[00:29:11] OUR MODELS. OUR MODELS ARE ARE SAFE AND SECURE AND WORKING WELL.
[00:29:13] I THINK AN INCENTIVE THAT IS REALLY UNDERESTIMATED, AGAIN, ON
[00:29:17] THIS COAST IS PRESSURE FROM EMPLOYEES. AND SO PRESSURE INSIDE THE
[00:29:20] COMPANIES, THE LEVEL OF FREAK
[00:29:22] OUT THAT IS HAPPENING AMONG OPEN EMPLOYEES, ALSO ANTHROPIC
[00:29:26] EMPLOYEES, OTHERS IS PRETTY HIGH. AND THE PRESSURE THAT THEY ARE
[00:29:30] PUTTING ON THEIR OWN LEADERSHIP TO SAY, HEY, WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT HERE IS IS
[00:29:33] PRETTY SIGNIFICANT. SO I THINK THAT IS THAT IS WORTH TAKING INTO CONSIDERATION AS
[00:29:37] WELL. AND OF COURSE, THERE'S ALSO KIND OF BROADER PUBLIC PRESSURE POTENTIAL FOR FOR GOVERNMENT
[00:29:42] PRESSURE. BUT I WOULD SAY THAT THOSE TWO BIG ONES ARE SORT OF ENTERPRISE CUSTOMERS AND EMPLOYEES ARE
[00:29:46] REALLY MAJOR DRIVERS. SO LET ME ASK A FOLLOW UP
[00:29:50] QUESTION, WHICH IS THAT THERE'S A WIDE SPREAD EXPECTATION THAT
[00:29:54] THESE FRONTIER LABS WILL GO PUBLIC IN THE IN THE NEAR
[00:29:58] FUTURE, AS SOON AS OCTOBER.
[00:30:00] HOW DOES IT HOW DOES THE INCENTIVE STRUCTURE CHANGE AND
[00:30:03] HOW MUCH HARDER DOES IT GET TO MANAGE SAFETY AFTER THEY BECOME
[00:30:08] PUBLIC? IT'S A REALLY INTERESTING QUESTION. I ACTUALLY THINK IT COULD GO BOTH WAYS.
[00:30:11] I THINK THERE'S A SORT OF STANDARD TAKE OF LIKE, OH,
[00:30:15] PUBLIC COMPANIES, THEY'RE JUST MAXIMIZING SHAREHOLDER VALUE. THEY CAN'T CONSIDER ANY OTHER
[00:30:19] SORT OF OBJECTIVES. BUT I THINK THERE'S ALSO A LOT
[00:30:21] OF I MEAN, THE THE CORPORATE
[00:30:26] GOVERNANCE FOR PUBLIC COMPANIES IS MUCH MORE FLESHED OUT, MUCH
[00:30:28] MORE MATURE THAN CORPORATE GOVERNANCE FOR THESE WEIRD
[00:30:32] NONPROFIT PUBLIC BENEFIT CORPORATION HYBRIDS WITH STRANGE
[00:30:34] BOARD SETUPS LIKE THAT'S ALL VERY IMMATURE, WHEREAS ONCE
[00:30:37] YOU'RE A PUBLIC COMPANY, THERE'S A LOT, A LOT CLEARER SORT OF EXPECTATIONS.
[00:30:41] SO I'M REALLY NOT SURE WHAT IT WILL LOOK LIKE. I THINK ONE THING THAT'S GOING
[00:30:44] TO BE VERY INTERESTING TO WATCH IS SORT OF THE THE RISK DISCLOSURES THAT YOU GET FROM BOTH OF THESE COMPANIES.
[00:30:48] WHAT DO THEY SEE AS RISKS TO THEIR BUSINESS? BECAUSE AT THIS POINT, THEY
[00:30:52] SURELY SHOULD SEE, YOU KNOW, FURTHER INCIDENTS OF THIS KIND,
[00:30:54] MAYBE EVEN MORE SEVERE INCIDENTS AS THEIR AI BECOMES MORE CAPABLE.
[00:30:58] DID THEY PUT THAT IN THERE LIKE SEC FILINGS? PROBABLY. THEY SHOULD, I GUESS.
[00:31:02] WILL THEY FIND A REASON NOT TO? WILL THEY DISCLOSE IT? AND WE'LL HAVE THAT IN A LIKE,
[00:31:06] YOU KNOW, REGULAR CORPORATE FINANCE DOCUMENT. LIKE IT'S GOING TO BE FINE. IT'LL BE INTERESTING TO
[00:31:10] INTERESTING TO SEE. I'M NOT SURE I'D USE THE WORD
[00:31:13] FUN, BUT OKAY. MATT, I WANTED TO TURN TO YOU.
[00:31:17] SO WE'VE HEARD, RIGHT. THERE'S A LOT OF INTEREST IN EXPANDING OUT BIG INCIDENT
[00:31:21] REPORTING REGIMES FOLLOWING FOLLOWING THESE INCIDENTS TO
[00:31:24] CAPTURE MORE THINGS LIKE THIS. I THINK ONE OF THE CHALLENGES
[00:31:27] THERE IS, IS, YOU KNOW, THE US GOVERNMENT HAS OFTEN BEEN
[00:31:31] CRITICIZED FOR ITS LACK OF
[00:31:33] TECHNICAL TALENT AND YOU KNOW, YOUR CENTER HAS DONE WORK ON
[00:31:36] SORT OF CYBER WORKFORCE ISSUES,
[00:31:39] INCLUDING A RECENT COMMISSION
[00:31:42] THAT YOU CONCLUDED. SO I'M CURIOUS FROM YOUR
[00:31:46] PERSPECTIVE, DOES THE GOVERNMENT, DOES THE US FEDERAL
[00:31:49] GOVERNMENT IN PARTICULAR HAVE THE RIGHT TECHNICAL TALENT TO BE
[00:31:53] ABLE TO ASSESS INCIDENT REPORTS IF THEY CAME IN AT A GREATER VOLUME?
[00:31:58] AND IF NOT, HOW CAN WE SORT OF CULTIVATE THAT TALENT? YEAH.
[00:32:01] SO I MEAN, I THINK THIS IS SOMETHING WHERE, YOU KNOW, I WOULD PUSH BACK AGAINST THAT
[00:32:05] CARICATURE THAT THE US GOVERNMENT DOESN'T HAVE
[00:32:08] SOPHISTICATED TECHNICAL TALENT. IT DOES, INCLUDING IN THIS AREA.
[00:32:12] ABSOLUTELY. BUT WE DO HAVE REAL PROBLEMS IN
[00:32:14] TERMS OF RECRUITING AND
[00:32:17] RETENTION THAT I THINK THAT WE NEED TO THINK THROUGH.
[00:32:19] SO WHAT I LOOK WAS REFERRING TO WAS THAT WE HAD A CSIS
[00:32:23] COMMISSION ON CYBER FORCE GENERATION. THIS IS ESSENTIALLY TRYING TO
[00:32:27] ADDRESS THE PROBLEM THAT WE HAVE IN THE UNITED STATES AROUND THE
[00:32:29] US MILITARY THAT FOR IN TERMS OF
[00:32:33] FORCE GENERATION AND BUILDING THE CAPABILITIES AND PERSONNEL
[00:32:36] TO DO CYBER OPERATIONS, EACH OF
[00:32:39] THE 4 OR 5 MILITARY SERVICES
[00:32:42] DOES THAT INDIVIDUALLY RIGHT ON ITS OWN. AND IT'S IT'S WORSE THAN A LEFT
[00:32:46] HAND, RIGHT HAND PROBLEM. RIGHT YOU'VE GOT EVEN MORE HANDS THAN THAT. THEY DON'T COORDINATE.
[00:32:50] THEY SEND EVERYTHING TO CYBER COMMAND AND ESSENTIALLY WHAT
[00:32:53] HAPPENS IS THAT CYBER COMMAND
[00:32:56] GETS GETS THE TALENT OFTENTIMES
[00:32:59] INCREDIBLE TALENT, BUT DOESN'T
[00:33:01] DOESN'T HAVE THE ABILITY TO TO
[00:33:03] TO INTEGRATE IT INTO INTO HAVE
[00:33:05] THE FOLKS THAT HAVE COMPLEMENTARY SKILLS IN A
[00:33:08] SYSTEMATIC WAY WHO HAVE BEEN TRAINED AND HAVE THE INCENTIVES
[00:33:12] ALSO TO STAY. RIGHT.
[00:33:15] BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, IF YOU'RE IN THE MARINE CORPS, FOR INSTANCE,
[00:33:18] THEY MAY BE LOOKING AT WHAT WHAT THEY WANT TO RETAIN AN INFANTRY
[00:33:22] OFFICER. RIGHT. AND NOT NECESSARILY WHAT YOU NEED TO DO FOR SOMEBODY WHO'S ON
[00:33:25] A CYBER PATH. SO, I MEAN, I THINK THAT WE HAVE THE TECHNICAL TALENT IN MANY
[00:33:29] CASES IN THE U.S. GOVERNMENT. BUT I THINK BOTH ON THE CIVILIAN
[00:33:33] SIDE AND ON THE MILITARY SIDE, WE NEED TO DO A BETTER JOB.
[00:33:37] YOU KNOW, THE RECENT EO DID CALL THIS OUT IN TERMS OF HAVING AN
[00:33:41] INFUSION OF CYBER TALENT, BUT THERE REALLY NEEDS TO BE A LOT
[00:33:43] MORE SUPPORT AND THOUGHT THAT'S PUT INTO THAT.
[00:33:47] YOU KNOW, I DO THINK THAT IT'S SOMETHING THAT YOU COULD MAKE,
[00:33:49] YOU KNOW, EXCITING. I THINK THAT THERE ARE FOLKS WHO WOULD BE WILLING TO DO IT.
[00:33:54] ONE OF THE THINGS IN THE CYBER FORCE COMMISSION REPORT THAT WE
[00:33:57] DID IN TERMS OF STRUCTURE AND NOT EFFORT, FOR INSTANCE, WAS TO
[00:34:00] HAVE A CYBER NATIONAL GUARD AS
[00:34:02] PART OF THE SERVICE WITH THE THOUGHT THAT, YOU KNOW,
[00:34:06] OBVIOUSLY THE CYBER NATIONAL GUARD IN CALIFORNIA IS GOING TO BE LIKE, INCREDIBLE. RIGHT?
[00:34:09] BECAUSE PEOPLE CAN VOLUNTEER HOUR PART TIME AND WORK.
[00:34:13] BUT I THINK WE NEED TO THINK ABOUT THAT BOTH ON THE CIVILIAN AND THE MILITARY SIDE IN ORDER
[00:34:17] TO HAVE THE TECHNICAL TALENT THAT WE NEED TO DO THIS AND TO
[00:34:21] WORK WITH INDUSTRY.
[00:34:23] MCKENZIE I WANTED TO TURN TO YOU.
[00:34:26] SO AS WE HEARD FROM THE REPRESENTATIVE, THERE IS AT
[00:34:29] LEAST SOME DESIRE TO DO SOMETHING QUICKLY ON THESE ISSUES.
[00:34:32] BUT I DON'T THINK ANYONE WOULD SAY THAT CONGRESS IS ABLE TO
[00:34:36] EXECUTE ON THAT, PARTICULARLY WELL.
[00:34:38] SO IS THE SORT OF RESIDENT LEGAL EXPERT ON THE PANEL AND REALLY
[00:34:42] CURIOUS ABOUT YOUR THOUGHTS ABOUT WHAT COULD THE U.S.
[00:34:46] EXECUTIVE BRANCH IN PARTICULAR DO ON THIS ISSUE NOW?
[00:34:49] AND WHAT STEPS COULD IT TAKE?
[00:34:52] YOU KNOW, WE'VE SEEN THAT THAT THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH HAS BEEN
[00:34:55] WILLING TO TAKE QUITE LIBERAL INTERPRETATIONS OF THINGS LIKE
[00:34:58] EXPORT CONTROL LAW FOR EXAMPLE, AND THEY IMPLEMENTED MODEL
[00:35:02] RESTRICTION BANS ON ACCESS TO ANTHROPIC MODELS BY FOREIGN
[00:35:07] NATIONALS. SO I'M CURIOUS WHAT YOU THINK THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH COULD DO
[00:35:09] AND THEN WHAT MIGHT REQUIRE
[00:35:12] LEGISLATIVE ACTION? YEAH.
[00:35:14] JUST TO SORT OF GROUND THINGS, RIGHT? THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH IN THE US
[00:35:18] FOR THE MOST PART, CAN ONLY DO THINGS THAT ARE GRANTED THE
[00:35:22] AUTHORITY BY CONGRESS, RIGHT? THERE ARE SOME OTHER THINGS THAT THE THE CONSTITUTION THAT HAS
[00:35:25] SOME BACKGROUND POWERS, BUT FOR THE MOST PART, YOU HAVE TO EXPLICITLY SAY YOU ARE
[00:35:28] AUTHORIZED TO DO X AND WITH MODERN COURTS THAT AUTHORIZATION
[00:35:32] ALSO HAS TO BE PRETTY EXPLICIT AND PRETTY CLEAR. OTHERWISE, COURTS ARE GOING TO BE SKEPTICAL OF IT.
[00:35:36] THINGS THAT THE GOVERNMENT CAN
[00:35:39] DO AND SORT OF MAYBE FALL TO EXTREMES.
[00:35:42] THERE'S ALL THE SOFT POWER STUFF THAT ACTUALLY MATTERS QUITE A
[00:35:45] BIT, AND THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH CAN START RIGHT NOW, RIGHT?
[00:35:48] THERE'S ALL THE THEY CAN MEET WITH INDIVIDUAL COMPANIES AND
[00:35:51] TRY TO ENCOURAGE THEM TO IMPROVE THEIR STANDARDS.
[00:35:53] I WOULDN'T DISMISS THAT. EVEN WITHOUT THREAT, THERE'S
[00:35:57] JUST SOMETHING TO MANY COMPANIES WANT TO DO BETTER IN THESE
[00:36:00] VARIOUS RESPECTS. AND ONE OF THE BIG CONSTRAINTS
[00:36:03] IS NOT EXPECTING THAT THEIR COMPETITORS WILL DO THE SAME.
[00:36:06] HAVING THE WEIGHT OF THE US GOVERNMENT BEHIND THIS IS REALLY
[00:36:09] HELPFUL AND IN MOVING FORWARD SOME OF THOSE STANDARDS AND THEY
[00:36:13] CAN ALSO SORT OF IMPROVE THEIR OWN CAPACITY AS SORT OF AN
[00:36:17] INFORMATION PROCESSOR OR, YOU KNOW, BEING ABLE TO RESPOND TO FUTURE EVENTS.
[00:36:19] MAYBE THIS OVERLAPS WITH SOME OF YOUR YOUR EX MATH. RIGHT.
[00:36:23] BUT FIGURING OUT IT'S NOT OBVIOUS WHERE IS GOING TO BE THE
[00:36:27] LOCUS OF POWER AROUND AI AND THERE'S GOING TO HAVE TO BE A
[00:36:29] LOT OF WORK AROUND HIRING AND FIGURING OUT SORT OF CHAINS OF
[00:36:34] COMMAND AND WHO'S GETTING WHAT AND WHO'S IN CHARGE OF WHAT. THAT WE CAN START NOW EVEN IN
[00:36:37] ADVANCE OF LEGISLATION AND
[00:36:40] THERE'S ALSO, I GUESS, SOMEWHERE IN BETWEEN SOFT POWER AND
[00:36:42] SOMETHING A BIT MORE CONSTRUCTIVE. THERE'S EVERYTHING THE FEDERAL
[00:36:46] GOVERNMENT CAN DO IN TERMS OF CONTRACTING IN PROCUREMENT. RIGHT.
[00:36:50] CREATING THINGS IN THE REAL
[00:36:52] WORLD, CREATING DEMAND AND INCENTIVES TO SORT OF
[00:36:57] DIFFERENTIALLY ACCELERATE CERTAIN TYPES OF SAFETY TECHNOLOGY. I THINK THERE'S A LOT TO BE DONE
[00:37:01] THERE. AND I THINK WE'LL SEE MORE OF THAT SOON. AND ON THE OTHER END OF THINGS,
[00:37:04] THERE IS A LOT OF THIS SORT OF HAMMER HARD POWER WAYS OF
[00:37:09] INTERVENING. AND THIS IS MAYBE WHAT YOU'RE REFERENCING WITH SORT OF INTERPRETING EXISTING POWERS
[00:37:13] CREATIVELY. AND ONE OF THE BIG DILEMMAS THERE IS JUST THAT THE
[00:37:17] AUTHORITIES THAT ARE GIVEN TO THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH THAT CAN BE USED IN A RATHER GENERAL
[00:37:21] FASHION, TEND TO BE MADE FOR
[00:37:23] EMERGENCY CIRCUMSTANCES. RIGHT. AND IT CREATES A STRONG
[00:37:27] INCENTIVE TO TREAT EVERYTHING LIKE AN EMERGENCY OR TO TREAT EVERYTHING LIKE SOMETHING THAT
[00:37:32] REQUIRES QUITE, QUITE INTENSE REACTIONS. AND THAT SORT OF INCENTIVIZES
[00:37:35] THESE VERY CREATIVE REACTIONS. SO WHETHER IT'S EXPORT CONTROLS
[00:37:38] OR SANCTIONS OR SUPPLY CHAIN
[00:37:41] RISK DESIGNATIONS OR OTHER THINGS, YOU HAVE A PRETTY BLUNT
[00:37:45] TOOL AND INCENTIVIZES YOU TO USE IT BLUNTLY.
[00:37:47] AND THE THING THAT'S MISSING THAT YOU REALLY NEED
[00:37:50] CONGRESSIONAL ACTION ON IS ANYTHING THAT REQUIRES A
[00:37:53] SUSTAINED RELATIONSHIP WITH INDUSTRY, ANYTHING THAT REQUIRES
[00:37:56] RULEMAKING AND REGULATION. ANYTHING WHERE YOU'RE TRYING TO
[00:37:59] MAKE TRADEOFFS OVER CAREFUL BALANCES OF WHAT SORT OF SAFETY
[00:38:02] PRACTICES ARE BEST AND WHEN WHEN, WHEN SHOULD THEY BE
[00:38:05] IMPLEMENTED AND WHAT ARE THE PENALTIES FOR DOING SO. ALL THOSE THINGS UPDATE ALL THE
[00:38:09] TIME. THEY REQUIRE QUITE A BIT OF PREDICTABILITY. THEY REQUIRE QUITE A BIT OF
[00:38:13] EXPERTISE. YOU CAN'T DO THAT WITHOUT AN AUTHORIZATION BY CONGRESS.
[00:38:16] AND ALLOCATIONS OF FUNDS FROM CONGRESS. AND SO I THINK THAT'S REALLY WHERE THINGS ARE GOING TO GO.
[00:38:20] YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO FILL IN THAT MIDDLE CATEGORY. AND IN THE MEANTIME, THERE ARE
[00:38:23] SOME VERY PRODUCTIVE THINGS THAT THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH CAN DO IN
[00:38:27] TERMS OF ITS SOFT POWER.
[00:38:29] SO BEFORE WE TURN TO QUESTIONS, I WANTED THERE WAS ONE LAST
[00:38:32] QUESTION I WANTED TO ASK EVERYONE. MATT, I CAN START WITH YOU AND
[00:38:36] SORT OF GO DOWN THE LINE. AND THAT IS THAT I'M REALLY
[00:38:38] INTERESTED IN SORT OF 1 OR 2
[00:38:41] CONCRETE POLICY RECOMMENDATIONS YOU WOULD YOU WOULD MAKE TO
[00:38:45] ADDRESS THESE CONTAINMENT ISSUES AND, AND I GUESS I'M AGNOSTIC ON
[00:38:47] WHETHER THAT'S LEGISLATIVE OR EXECUTIVE BRANCH OR STATE OR
[00:38:51] FEDERAL. BUT JUST CURIOUS WHAT YOU THINK WOULD BE REALLY PRODUCTIVE TO DO
[00:38:55] IN THIS SITUATION? YEAH. SO I THINK I THINK CLEARLY LIKE,
[00:38:59] YOU KNOW, UPDATING REPORTING IS GOING TO BE ESSENTIAL AND NOT
[00:39:03] JUST IN A CHECK BOX WAY, BUT IN
[00:39:06] A WAY THAT ENSURES THAT THE
[00:39:08] RIGHT TELEMETRY AND RECORDS ARE
[00:39:10] THERE BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, IN
[00:39:12] THESE IN THESE SITUATIONS, AS CAME UP IN THE HUGGY FACE
[00:39:16] INCIDENT, YOU KNOW, THE AGENTS CAN BE REALLY GOOD AT EVADING
[00:39:20] THIS AND CAN SORT OF ALMOST SEEM TO CONSCIOUSLY DO IT RIGHT IN A
[00:39:22] WAY THAT YOU HAVE TO HAVE THE RIGHT TYPE OF TELEMETRY.
[00:39:26] AND THEN I WOULD GO BACK TO
[00:39:28] ACTUALLY, YOU KNOW, FROM A CONGRESSIONAL PERSPECTIVE,
[00:39:32] ACTUALLY SORT OF PROVIDING
[00:39:34] FUNDING AND AND HARD DOLLARS FOR
[00:39:36] SOME OF THESE SHARED DEFENSIVE CAPABILITIES, SOME OF THAT
[00:39:40] DEMAND POLL THAT YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT. I THINK THAT THERE'S THERE'S
[00:39:43] SORT OF NO NO SUBSTITUTE FOR THAT IN THIS CASE, PARTICULARLY
[00:39:47] WHERE THE GOVERNMENT CAN SORT OF USE IT TOWARD THE PROVIDING
[00:39:51] PUBLIC GOODS IN A WAY THAT THAT
[00:39:53] INDUSTRY IS AS AS GRADED AS IT IS, IS AND ISN'T AS SUITED TO DO.
[00:39:59] AND PICKING UP ON WHAT MATT SAID. RIGHT. I THINK THERE ARE A LOT OF FIXES
[00:40:02] THAT WE CAN MAKE AROUND INCIDENT REPORTING, AND THAT STARTS WITH
[00:40:06] MAKING SURE THE CATEGORIES OF
[00:40:08] WHAT IS REPORTED ARE BROADER AND THAT SOME OF THEM EXIST PRE HARM, MAKING SURE THAT YOU HAVE
[00:40:13] INVESTIGATORY POWERS AND RULE MAKING. SO YOU CAN ACTUALLY FIGURE OUT THE DETAILS OF WHAT HAPPENED AND
[00:40:17] THEN SORTING OUT HOW THAT INFORMATION IS GOING TO BE SHARED BETWEEN DIFFERENT
[00:40:21] GOVERNMENTS AND WITH THE PUBLIC. AND I THINK WE'RE ALSO GOING
[00:40:23] HAVE TO THINK MORE SERIOUSLY ABOUT MONITORING THAT WILL BE
[00:40:28] COSTLY AT TIMES, AND IT'S GOING TO BE AN UNRESOLVED TECHNICAL QUESTION.
[00:40:31] SO I DON'T I DON'T HAVE AN IMMEDIATE RECOMMENDATION TO IT FOR WHAT TO IMPLEMENT NOW.
[00:40:35] BUT I THINK WE'RE GOING TO WANT TO PUT OURSELVES ON A POLICY TRACK WHERE WE'RE STARTING TO
[00:40:39] FIGURE THAT OUT AND STARTING TO TREAT THIS AS A SERIOUS PART OF
[00:40:41] THE PUZZLE THAT IT ISN'T JUST REPORTING THINGS, IT'S ABOUT
[00:40:44] MAKING IT MORE LIKELY THAT YOU DETECT THEM AND THAT YOU HAVE ENOUGH DATA ON WHAT IS OCCURRING
[00:40:49] SUCH THAT YOU CAN MAKE SENSE OF IT AFTER. YEAH, I THINK THE TWO I WOULD
[00:40:53] GIVE ONE IS FIXING THE BLINDSPOT THAT WE HAVE RIGHT NOW AROUND
[00:40:55] INTERNAL USE OF A.I. WITHIN THESE COMPANIES. SO AGAIN, I THINK WE NEED TO
[00:40:59] SHIFT FROM A MINDSET OF KIND OF PRODUCT SAFETY, OF MAKING SURE
[00:41:02] NEW MODELS ARE SAFE BEFORE THEY'RE RELEASED WIDELY TO
[00:41:06] INSTEAD RECOGNIZING THAT THESE COMPANIES ARE DOING QUITE RISKY RESEARCH INTERNALLY AND THEY'RE
[00:41:09] MAKING THEIR CONSTANTLY MAKING RISK APPETITE JUDGMENTS ABOUT
[00:41:13] HOW DO WE PROCEED, HOW CAREFUL DO WE NEED TO BE, HOW MUCH MORE INFORMATION DO WE NEED?
[00:41:17] AND SO I THINK THERE'S A RANGE OF DIFFERENT WAYS THAT YOU COULD
[00:41:20] GET MORE VISIBILITY, MORE
[00:41:22] OVERSIGHT INTO WHAT THAT LOOKS LIKE. SO, YOU KNOW, YOU MENTIONED IT'S
[00:41:26] THE REPORTING AND SORT OF EXPANDING OUR ABILITY TO KNOW WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THINGS GO WRONG.
[00:41:29] I THINK A DIFFERENT THING THAT WOULD BE REALLY, REALLY VALUABLE
[00:41:32] IS TO HAVE FIND SOME WAY TO MAKE
[00:41:35] THE COMPANIES SHARE MUCH MORE INFORMATION ABOUT WHAT HOW ARE
[00:41:38] THEY MAKING THESE JUDGMENTS? WHAT DOES THEIR RESEARCH PROCESS
[00:41:42] LOOK LIKE? HOW ARE THEY? WHY THE HELL WAS OPENAI NOT MONITORING THESE DEPLOYMENTS
[00:41:46] THAT THEY WERE THAT WERE BEHIND THE HUGGING FACE ATTACK?
[00:41:50] HOW YOU KNOW, THERE'S A LOT OF SORT OF DECISION MAKING AND
[00:41:54] INTERPRETATION OF EVIDENCE THAT IS GOING ON INSIDE THE COMPANIES RIGHT NOW THAT REALLY SHOULD BE
[00:41:57] EXPOSED TO MUCH MORE SUNLIGHT WOULD ALSO ALLOW FOR MORE HARMONIZATION. BUT, YOU KNOW, INSIDE THE
[00:42:01] INDUSTRY AND WHAT IS SORT OF APPROPRIATE PRACTICES AND WOULD
[00:42:04] ALSO ALLOW FOR SORT OF CIVIL SOCIETY AND EXTERNAL EXPERTS TO
[00:42:07] UNDERSTAND WHAT'S HAPPENING. MORE TO SAY ON THAT.
[00:42:10] BUT I THINK THE SORT OF BROAD CATEGORY OF GETTING THAT INTERNAL RISKY RESEARCH OUT OF
[00:42:14] THE DARKNESS AND INTO THE INTO
[00:42:16] MORE PUBLIC LIGHT IS REALLY IMPORTANT. AND THEN ANOTHER ONE, I THINK IS
[00:42:20] WE HAVE THIS TRUMP XI SUMMIT
[00:42:22] COMING UP, U.S., CHINA SUMMIT AT
[00:42:25] THE WHITE HOUSE IN A FEW WEEKS. I THINK SEPTEMBER 24TH IS THE
[00:42:28] DATE AND ON THE US SIDE AND YOU TALK TO PEOPLE IN INDUSTRY,
[00:42:32] THEY'RE CONSTANTLY BRINGING UP WELL, BUT WE CAN'T DO THIS. WE CAN'T DO THAT. WE WISH WE COULD.
[00:42:35] BUT CHINA, WE WISH WE COULD, BUT THEN CHINA WILL BEAT US. AND I THINK IF WE'RE ACTUALLY
[00:42:39] SERIOUS, IF THEY'RE SERIOUS ABOUT THE LEVEL OF RISK THAT THEY THINK AI POSES, THAT, YOU
[00:42:44] KNOW, PEOPLE INSIDE THE COMPANIES THINK WHAT THEY ARE BUILDING IS VERY RISKY, BUT
[00:42:47] THEY'RE RACING TO DO IT ANYWAY, BECAUSE IF THEY DON'T, CHINA WILL.
[00:42:50] AND IF WE THINK THAT IS THE SITUATION, THEN THAT IS A CONVERSATION WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO ACTUALLY START TO HAVE WITH
[00:42:54] CHINA AND SAY, HEY, DO YOU THINK YOUR COMPANIES ARE DOING THINGS THAT ARE THIS RISKY?
[00:42:57] HOW CAN WE YOU KNOW, YOU DON'T NECESSARILY NEED ANY KIND OF DEAL BETWEEN THE TWO LEADERS SO
[00:43:01] MUCH AS JUST AN UNDERSTANDING OF THIS IS A RISKY SITUATION.
[00:43:05] YOU KNOW, THE US NEEDS TO LOOK BETTER AND DO BETTER IN TERMS OF
[00:43:08] HOW U.S. INDUSTRY IS HANDLING THESE RISKS. MAYBE CHINA NEEDS TO DO BETTER,
[00:43:11] HOW IT'S HANDLING THESE KINDS OF RISKS. THAT IS A CONVERSATION THAT HAS SORT OF GOTTEN OFF TO SOME VERY,
[00:43:15] VERY BABY STEPS. STARTS IN THE LAST COUPLE OF
[00:43:19] YEARS. AND I HOPE THERE CAN BE SIGNIFICANT PROGRESS IN THE NEXT FEW WEEKS AND MONTHS. YEAH.
[00:43:23] IF I COULD JUST PIGGYBACK ON THAT A LITTLE BIT. I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, MY PROGRAM DOES A LOT OF TRACK TO
[00:43:27] TRACK 1.5 DIALOGS WITH THE PRC, INCLUDING ON CYBER AND SOME OF THESE ISSUES.
[00:43:31] AND I DO THINK THAT THERE IS AN INTEREST AND A WILLINGNESS ON
[00:43:34] THE PRC SIDE TO POTENTIALLY TALK ABOUT THESE THINGS NOW.
[00:43:38] I WOULDN'T SORT OF MISTAKE THAT FOR GUARANTEED PROGRESS. RIGHT. THERE ARE ALL KINDS OF
[00:43:41] OBSTACLES, BUT I DO THINK THAT
[00:43:43] IF WE DID HAVE THAT ATTENTION
[00:43:46] SORT OF AT THE HIGHEST LEVELS, AND THAT INCLUDES THE PRESIDENT
[00:43:50] IN THESE INTERACTIONS, I DO THINK THAT IT WOULD BE AN AREA THAT'S RIPE FOR MAKING SOME
[00:43:54] PROGRESS, AT LEAST POTENTIALLY.
[00:43:56] SO SO EVERYONE'S MENTIONED
[00:43:58] INCIDENT REPORTING IN SOME WAY. I WANTED TO ASK A FOLLOW UP QUESTION, WHICH HAS TO DO WITH
[00:44:03] COMPLIANCE. SO IT'S ONE THING TO SORT OF MANDATE THAT, YOU KNOW, A
[00:44:06] CERTAIN SET OF INCIDENTS NEED TO
[00:44:09] BE REPORTED, BUT THERE'S THIS PHENOMENON, RIGHT?
[00:44:11] LIKE THE TRAIN, THE FORCE, AND IT FALLS AND NO ONE SEES IT.
[00:44:14] DID IT REALLY FALL? IF AN INCIDENT HAPPENS AND IT'S
[00:44:18] ONLY INTERNAL OR IT DOESN'T AFFECT ANY THIRD PARTIES,
[00:44:21] THERE'S THERE'S INCENTIVES FOR COMPANIES NOT TO REPORT THAT.
[00:44:25] SO FROM A COMPLIANCE
[00:44:27] PERSPECTIVE, HOW DO WE ENSURE THAT WE ARE GETTING ALL THE
[00:44:31] RELEVANT INFORMATION, EVEN IF WE DO HAVE MANDATES? THIS IS SOMETHING THAT I'VE BEEN
[00:44:36] THINKING ABOUT MORE IN THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS AND WITH
[00:44:38] REFERENCE TO REPORTING AND OTHER AREAS LIKE AVIATION.
[00:44:41] SO A COUPLE OF THINGS YOU CAN DO.
[00:44:43] ONE, IN MANY OTHER CONTEXTS, THE
[00:44:46] REPORTING GOES TO NOT THE REGULATOR, RIGHT?
[00:44:49] TO SOME OTHER ENTITY THAT DOES NOT HAVE RULEMAKING AUTHORITY OVER THEM BECAUSE IT IS LESS
[00:44:53] LIKELY THAT THE HAMMER WILL COME DOWN ON YOU IF THE INFORMATION IS PROVIDED NOT TO THE
[00:44:57] REGULATOR. RIGHT. THIS HAS SOME TRADE OFFS TO IT,
[00:44:59] BUT THIS IS A TRADEOFF THAT THEY'VE MADE IN SOME OTHER CONTEXT TO MAKE IT MORE LIKELY
[00:45:03] THAT THERE ARE FULL DISCLOSURES. AND THEN IN TERMS OF INCENTIVES,
[00:45:05] YOU KIND OF THE WHOLE SORT OF
[00:45:09] DECISIONS SPACE, I THINK ONE THAT WILL COME TO MIND IF PEOPLE VERY EARLY ON IS THAT YOU CAN
[00:45:12] OFFER LIABILITY, SAFE HARBORS AND OTHER THINGS IN RETURN FOR REPORTING.
[00:45:16] I THINK THIS CREATES PRETTY PERVERSE INCENTIVES RIGHT, TO
[00:45:20] INCLUDE ALL OF THE INFORMATION IN YOUR INITIAL DISCLOSURE AND TO PROTECT YOURSELF FROM THINGS
[00:45:24] THAT YOU SHOULD LEGITIMATELY BE RESPONSIBLE FOR. THERE ARE OTHER VERSIONS OF THAT
[00:45:28] WHERE WHAT YOU INSTEAD DO IS CREATE NEGATIVE INFERENCES.
[00:45:30] SO IF YOU DO NOT PROVIDE THE INFORMATION AND IT LATER COMES
[00:45:34] UP IN LITIGATION THAT YOU WERE AWARE OF THIS AND NOT PROVIDED,
[00:45:37] THAT WE WILL DRAW AN INFERENCE THAT YOU HAD.
[00:45:40] IN FACT, YOU HAD INTENT OR YOU HAD KNOWLEDGE OR SATISFIED ALL OF THE OTHER ELEMENTS.
[00:45:44] THERE. I THINK THAT'S MORE PROMISING.
[00:45:47] YOU CAN ALSO ADD TO THAT SORT OF
[00:45:49] PROMISES THAT WHOEVER RECEIVES THE INFORMATION WILL NOT USE IT
[00:45:53] DIRECTLY TO PURSUE ALLEGATIONS THEMSELVES. RIGHT.
[00:45:56] IT'S A REALLY TRICKY THING, BUT IT HAS BEEN DONE IN OTHER CONTEXTS AND I THINK THAT WE
[00:46:00] SHOULD BE THINKING ABOUT IT MORE. YEAH, I THINK TO PICK UP ON THAT, YOU YOU NEED TO SEPARATE THE TWO SITUATIONS.
[00:46:05] WHICH ONE IS WHERE AN INCIDENT CAUSES ACTUAL HARM OR DAMAGE.
[00:46:09] RIGHT. AND IN THAT CASE, WE HAVE YOU KNOW, ALL KINDS OF DIFFERENT AREAS THAT THE FEDERAL
[00:46:12] GOVERNMENT OR STATE GOVERNMENTS REGULATE SO THAT YOU CAN PROVIDE INCENTIVES THAT ESSENTIALLY MAKE IT MUCH WORSE.
[00:46:16] IF YOU DON'T REPORT IN THAT SITUATION VERSUS WHERE THERE ISN'T ACTUAL HARM.
[00:46:21] BUT WE JUST NEED TO KNOW ABOUT IT, RIGHT? LIKE IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT IN
[00:46:24] TERMS OF THAT FEEDBACK LOOP AND LESSONS LEARNED.
[00:46:27] AND THAT'S WHERE, YOU KNOW, AN INDEPENDENT THIRD PARTY,
[00:46:30] SOMEBODY WHO DOESN'T HAVE THE HAMMER, IS SO, SO IMPORTANT.
[00:46:34] AND CAN I ADD AS WELL, I THINK IN THIS INDUSTRY AS WELL, AGAIN, WITH A VERY ACTIVIST EMPLOYEES
[00:46:38] WHO ARE REALLY CONCERNED ABOUT WHAT THEIR OWN COMPANIES ARE
[00:46:40] DOING, THIS ALSO GIVES A HOOK FOR WHISTLEBLOWING. IF THERE'S SORT OF A CLEAR LEGAL
[00:46:44] OBLIGATION TO REPORT SOMETHING AND THE COMPANY DOESN'T, THEN EITHER YOU COULD BUILD THAT
[00:46:48] INTO, YOU KNOW, INTO NEW LEGISLATION OR PERHAPS YOU WOULD KNOW BETTER THAT PERHAPS THERE'S
[00:46:52] EXISTING PROTECTIONS FOR IF THE COMPANY IS NOT COMPLYING WITH A LEGAL OBLIGATION, THAT GIVES YOU MUCH MORE STANDING AS A
[00:46:56] POTENTIAL WHISTLEBLOWER. THAT'S REALLY HELPFUL.
[00:46:59] SO WE DO HAVE AUDIENCE QUESTIONS. SO I'M GOING TO I'M GOING TO TURN TO THOSE.
[00:47:04] THE FIRST QUESTION IS FOR MACKENZIE AND IT'S FROM CHRIS
[00:47:07] COCHRANE AND IS BASICALLY SAYING, YOU KNOW, HELEN MENTIONED IN HER OPENING
[00:47:12] COMMENTS THAT IT WASN'T CLEAR IF A FELONY WAS COMMITTED RELATING
[00:47:15] TO THE HUGGING FACE INCIDENT SINCE THE ACTS WERE CARRIED OUT
[00:47:19] BY AN AUTONOMOUS AGENT RATHER THAN ANY HUMAN.
[00:47:23] SO WHAT'S YOUR BEST UNDERSTANDING OF HOW LIABILITY
[00:47:25] WORKS FOR CRIMES COMMITTED BY AGENTS?
[00:47:29] IF THERE'S ANY CLARITY AT ALL? YEAH, REALLY EASY QUESTION. LET'S GET THROUGH IT.
[00:47:34] MAYBE CATCH US IN THREE HOURS.
[00:47:35] SO MAYBE FOR SEPARATE IT RIGHT.
[00:47:38] THERE'S TORT LIABILITY, CIVIL
[00:47:40] LIABILITY AND OTHER FINES. THERE'S CRIMINAL LIABILITY RIGHT THERE.
[00:47:44] ALL DIFFERENT CATEGORIES OF THINGS. ONE THING THAT PEOPLE HAVE
[00:47:47] TALKED ABOUT A BUNCH, INCLUDING IF YOU WANT TO LOOK UP SOME OR
[00:47:51] INCURS COMMENTS ON THE RECENT
[00:47:53] BREACHES ONLINE, HE PROVIDES SOME GOOD COMMENTARY THERE ON
[00:47:56] THE CFA, WHICH IS THE COMPUTER FRAUD AND ABUSE ACT.
[00:47:59] WHENEVER YOU HAVE A CRIMINAL STATUTE OR LEGISLATIVELY
[00:48:04] ESTABLISH LIABILITY, YOU OFTEN HAVE SOME SORT OF INTENT BAR
[00:48:08] RIGHT? I THINK IN THAT CASE, FOR THE RELEVANT PROVISIONS, IT'S KNOWING, RIGHT?
[00:48:11] SO YOU HAVE TO HAVE KNOWLEDGE THAT YOU ARE GOING TO ACCESS
[00:48:15] SOMETHING THAT YOU DON'T HAVE THE ABILITY TO ACCESS.
[00:48:18] MY COLLEAGUES ARE GOING TO BE ROLLING THEIR EYES AT MY MY LACK
[00:48:21] OF MEMORY ON THIS. AND THAT'S REALLY HARD WHEN YOU HAVE AN AGENT, RIGHT.
[00:48:25] IN THIS CASE, THE AGENT ITSELF
[00:48:27] DOES NOT HAVE KNOWLEDGE IN THE SENSE THAT WE ASCRIBE TO HUMANS
[00:48:31] THE COMPANY ITSELF. IF ANYTHING, MUCH TO OUR
[00:48:35] DETRIMENT, WAS UNAWARE THAT THIS WAS HAPPENING.
[00:48:37] YOU COULD ARGUE ABOUT WHETHER THEY HAVE CONSTRUCTIVE KNOWLEDGE
[00:48:41] BECAUSE THEY HAD SEEN SIMILAR EVENTS LIKE THIS, PERHAPS IN THE PAST.
[00:48:44] BUT I DON'T THINK THAT THAT'S SUFFICIENT UNDER THE STATUTE. LONG WAY OF SAYING WHY ARE THE
[00:48:48] FEW LAWS WE HAVE THAT MIGHT BE
[00:48:50] RELEVANT HERE DOESN'T SEEM LIKE
[00:48:53] THE ELEMENTS ARE SATISFIED. THEN WHEN YOU GO TO TORT
[00:48:57] LIABILITY, THIS GOES BACK TO THAT QUESTION OF YOU ACTUALLY NEED A HARM, RIGHT?
[00:49:00] THE WAY THAT YOU HAVE TORT LIABILITY IS THAT YOU ARE COMPENSATING FOR DAMAGES THAT
[00:49:05] ACTUALLY HAPPENED. THAT REQUIRES THAT YOU ACTUALLY
[00:49:08] DID HAVE INJURY AND THEN YOU ALSO HAVE A PLAINTIFF WHO'S
[00:49:11] WILLING TO BRING A CASE. I WON'T PUT WORDS IN ANYONE'S
[00:49:14] MOUTH, BUT IN THIS CASE, IT'S POWER THAT YOU FACE HAS NOT
[00:49:18] INITIATED LITIGATION AGAINST OPENING. I. THAT COULD BE GOOD REASONS FOR DOING THAT.
[00:49:22] GOOD REASONS AGAINST DOING IT.
[00:49:24] BUT IT MEANS THAT WE WON'T ACTUALLY GET A CASE.
[00:49:27] WE WON'T GET DISCOVERY. WE WON'T LEARN MORE THROUGH THE LIABILITY PROCESS THERE.
[00:49:31] SO I THINK IN A CASE LIKE THIS, YOU'RE NOT GOING TO HAVE LIABILITY.
[00:49:37] OKAY. I SUSPECT THAT THE AUDIENCE MIGHT HAVE SOME FOLLOW UP QUESTIONS THERE.
[00:49:40] BUT BUT YOU KNOW, I WASN'T EXPECTING YOU TO BE ABLE TO
[00:49:45] SOLVE THE ISSUE OF A LIABILITY IN 30S.
[00:49:47] THE NEXT QUESTION IS FROM WILL
[00:49:50] TOP AND HOME OF NEXT PILLAR
[00:49:52] CAPITAL AND AND THIS IS FOR ANY OF YOU TO ANSWER.
[00:49:56] I MEAN, THIS IS A QUESTION BASICALLY ABOUT US-CHINA COMPETITION.
[00:50:00] SO WE'VE ALREADY SEEN BECAUSE OF SOME NEW REGULATORY SORT OF
[00:50:04] MECHANISMS THAT THERE HAVE BEEN DELAYS AND RELEASE OF US MODELS.
[00:50:06] AND THE QUESTION IS, IS BASICALLY A CONCERN THAT MODELS
[00:50:10] RELEASED IN FOREIGN COUNTRIES LIKE CHINA AREN'T SUBJECTED TO
[00:50:13] THE SAME KINDS OF REQUIREMENTS.
[00:50:15] SO WHAT CAN WE DO TO IMPLEMENT
[00:50:17] SORT OF NECESSARY REPORTING AND
[00:50:20] CYBERSECURITY REQUIREMENTS FOR
[00:50:24] US LABS WITHOUT NECESSARILY CREATING A PROBLEMATIC
[00:50:28] BOTTLENECK IN TERMS OF COMPETITION FROM CHINA?
[00:50:32] I, I MEAN, I WOULD SAY HERE THAT I WOULD ACTUALLY THINK THE RIGHT APPROACH IS A DIFFERENT ONE,
[00:50:35] WHICH IS THE CONCERNS THAT HAVE
[00:50:38] MOTIVATED ARE OR I GUESS THERE'S
[00:50:41] DIFFERENT, DIFFERENT PIECES HERE. BUT TO THE EXTENT THAT WE ARE
[00:50:44] INTERVENING IN THE U.S. INDUSTRY
[00:50:47] DUE TO CONCERNS THAT WOULD ALSO
[00:50:49] CONCERN CHINA, I THINK THE RIGHT APPROACH IS NOT TO TRY AND JUST
[00:50:53] SKIP THAT AND JUST LET THINGS PROCEED, EVEN THOUGH WE HAVE
[00:50:56] SIGNIFICANT CONCERNS ABOUT RISKS, THE COMPANIES ARE TALKING ABOUT THEMSELVES. BUT INSTEAD IS TO TRY AND BUILD
[00:51:00] MORE OF A SHARED UNDERSTANDING WITH THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT OF
[00:51:03] THIS IS IN FACT A RISK THAT SHOULD CONCERN YOU AS WELL.
[00:51:06] I THINK FOR A BUNCH OF REASONS, THERE IS A MUCH MORE SORT OF
[00:51:10] WELL-ESTABLISHED AND INFLUENTIAL COMMUNITY INSIDE THE USA AI
[00:51:14] INDUSTRY THAT THINK SERIOUSLY ABOUT KIND OF MAJOR RISKS FROM
[00:51:16] HIGHLY ADVANCED AI SYSTEMS.
[00:51:18] AND THAT IS STARTING TO BE MORE THAT IS STARTING TO DEVELOP IN
[00:51:22] CHINA, BUT IT'S SORT OF STARTING FROM A LOWER BASE. SO I THINK THINGS LIKE THE KINDS
[00:51:26] OF DIALOG THAT ARE PLANNED BETWEEN THE LEADERS OF THE TWO
[00:51:30] COUNTRIES ARE TO SAY, HEY, HERE IS WHAT WE ARE SEEING, HERE IS WHY.
[00:51:33] HERE'S WHY WE ARE CONCERNED AND NOT EXPECTING CHINA TO DO ANYTHING OUT OF LOVE FOR THE
[00:51:36] U.S. THAT'S OBVIOUSLY RIDICULOUS. BUT EXPECTING CHINA TO RECOGNIZE
[00:51:40] ITS OWN SELF-INTEREST AND THE REASONS THAT THE CHINESE
[00:51:43] COMMUNIST PARTY PROBABLY DOESN'T WANT IT. MANY OF THE SAME KINDS OF RISKS
[00:51:46] TO BE INTEREST TO EVENTUATE AS AS THE U.S. GOVERNMENT DOES.
[00:51:49] I THINK THAT'S THAT'S REALLY WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, THE SORT OF MAJOR CATASTROPHIC AND
[00:51:55] ESPECIALLY, YOU KNOW, RISKS WHERE YOU HAVE A VERY ADVANCED AI AS A THREAT ACTOR. I THINK THAT'S THE APPROACH.
[00:51:59] THERE'S LOTS OF OTHER SORT OF MORE PRAGMATIC, PROSAIC, POTENTIAL REASONS THAT YOU MIGHT
[00:52:02] WANT TO REGULATE THE SECTOR WHERE IT DEFINITELY DOES MAKE SENSE TO BE LOOKING FOR MORE
[00:52:06] STREAMLINED, YOU KNOW, APPROACHES THAT THAT DON'T
[00:52:08] CREATE FRICTION. YEAH. I WOULD START BY PUSHING BACK ON
[00:52:12] THE PREMISE OF THE QUESTION, WHICH IS THAT I THINK THE PRC IS
[00:52:16] GOING TO DO THIS. I THINK ALL THE SIGNS ARE THAT
[00:52:18] THEY'RE SERIOUSLY CONSIDERING AND TALKING TO OTHER FRONTIER
[00:52:22] LABS ABOUT IT AND THEY, YOU KNOW, THEY HAVE A STRONG RECORD
[00:52:26] OF REGULATING. I THINK THEY BASICALLY JUST LIKE CRUSHED THEIR COMPANION SECTOR
[00:52:30] DOMESTICALLY BECAUSE THEY WERE CONCERNED ABOUT RESEARCH. SO I DO THINK THAT THAT MAKES IT
[00:52:33] AN AREA THAT'S RIPE FOR HAVING AN AGREEMENT. I MEAN, IN TERMS OF INDUSTRY'S
[00:52:38] CONCERNS ABOUT IT, I THINK THOSE ARE LEGITIMATE, TOO. I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, THAT
[00:52:40] THAT EO THAT LAID OUT SORT OF A VOLUNTARY APPROACH WAS THAT A
[00:52:44] COUPLE OF MONTHS AGO NOW, YOU KNOW, INITIALLY IT HAD 90 DAYS
[00:52:48] WAS GOING TO BE THE REVIEW. AND OUR INDUSTRY HAD A LOT OF CONCERNS ABOUT THAT.
[00:52:52] AND I'M SOMEWHAT SYMPATHETIC LIKE THAT'S AN ETERNITY RIGHT, IN THIS INDUSTRY.
[00:52:55] AND SO I THINK IT COMES BACK TO THAT CONVERSATION WE WERE HAVING
[00:52:58] ABOUT REALLY ENSURING AND HAVING THE ADMINISTRATION MAKE THOSE
[00:53:02] INVESTMENTS AND SEND THE RIGHT SIGNALS ABOUT HAVING THE TECHNICAL TALENT IN THE FEDERAL
[00:53:07] GOVERNMENT THAT CAN REVIEW THINGS VERY QUICKLY SO THAT WE
[00:53:11] DON'T HAVE, YOU KNOW, 60 OR 90 DAY WINDOWS THAT, AGAIN, I
[00:53:14] UNDERSTAND WHY INDUSTRY DOESN'T WANT TO HAVE TO WAIT THAT LONG.
[00:53:18] MCKENZIE ANYTHING YOU YOU WANT TO ADD, YOU DON'T HAVE TO HAVE
[00:53:22] PLENTY OF SMART COMMENTS ALREADY. ALL RIGHT. THE NEXT QUESTION IS FROM MIKE
[00:53:26] HARRIGAN OF MITER. AND IT'S A QUESTION BASICALLY
[00:53:29] ABOUT SORT OF INVESTIGATIONS AND
[00:53:32] SORT OF REGULATORY SORT OF ISSUES.
[00:53:35] WE'VE SEEN IN THE WAY THAT INVESTIGATIONS HAVE BEEN IMPLEMENTED IN FEDERAL
[00:53:39] GOVERNMENT BEFORE. SO BASICALLY, ARE YOU CONCERNED
[00:53:43] THAT GOVERNMENT INVESTIGATIONS INTO AIR SAFETY INCIDENTS MIGHT
[00:53:46] FALL VICTIM TO SOME OF THE PITFALLS WE'VE SEEN IN OTHER
[00:53:49] FEDERAL INVESTIGATIONS MENTIONS
[00:53:53] POLITICIZING POLITICIZATION OR THE PERCEPTION THEREOF OF
[00:53:57] INVESTIGATION INTO PARTICULAR COMPANIES OR ACCIDENTS? I THINK THIS IS PROBABLY
[00:54:00] HEIGHTENED BECAUSE WE'VE SEEN THE ADMINISTRATION SORT OF TAKE
[00:54:04] SPECIFIC ACTIONS AGAINST SPECIFIC COMPANIES.
[00:54:06] BUT I'LL SORT OF ADD MY OWN TAKE, WHICH IS THERE.
[00:54:09] THERE'S ALSO THE ISSUE OF SORT OF REGULATORY CAPTURE.
[00:54:12] SO I'M CURIOUS ABOUT BOTH OF
[00:54:14] THOSE ISSUES AS YOU THINK ABOUT
[00:54:17] SORT OF THE RIGHT MECHANISM FOR BOTH THE REPORTING OF
[00:54:20] INFORMATION AND INVESTIGATING INCIDENTS. YEAH, ABSOLUTELY.
[00:54:23] THIS IS A REAL CONCERN.
[00:54:25] AND I THINK ALSO AT THE SAME TIME, IT CAN BE EASY TO
[00:54:29] OVERESTIMATE HOW OFTEN THIS IS TO HAPPEN BASED OFF OF THE LAST
[00:54:32] COUPLE OF YEARS. I THINK IF YOU ASKED THIS QUESTION FIVE YEARS AGO OR
[00:54:36] SOMETHING, PEOPLE WOULD HAVE THOUGHT THE TRADE WAS SOMEWHAT DIFFERENT.
[00:54:39] I THINK THAT AT LEAST NOT TO SAY
[00:54:41] THAT WE WILL GRAVITATE BACK TOWARDS THE MEAN.
[00:54:44] BUT IT'S ALSO TO SAY MOST EXECUTIVE BRANCH POWERS CAN BE
[00:54:47] ABUSED IN VARIOUS WAYS. YOU CAN TRY TO MAKE IT MORE
[00:54:51] DIFFICULT OR MORE COSTLY TO ABUSE THEM. BUT THIS IS, IN FACT, IS A TRADE
[00:54:55] OFF THAT IS INHERENT TO ANY AMOUNT OF AND INVESTIGATION
[00:54:59] LICENSING, REVIEW, RULEMAKING,
[00:55:01] ETC., IN TERMS OF PREVENTING THAT ABUSE, THOUGH, I THINK WHAT
[00:55:05] WE'RE GOING TO END UP WITH IS SOME SORT OF TIERED SYSTEM, RIGHT?
[00:55:08] WHERE FOR MOST INCIDENTS, ESPECIALLY WHERE YOU DON'T HAVE
[00:55:11] HARM, WHERE YOU'RE ONLY GETTING AS SOME INITIAL NOTIFICATION AND
[00:55:14] THEN PROBABLY SOME AMOUNT OF VOLUNTARY BACK AND FORTH OF INFORMATION. RIGHT.
[00:55:18] IT'S ONLY AS YOU SORT OF ESCALATE UP THAT UP THAT CHAIN
[00:55:22] WHERE I THINK WE'LL NEED INVESTIGATIONS. AND I THINK THERE IF YOU JUST THINK CONCRETELY ABOUT WHAT IF
[00:55:26] YOU HAD AN INCIDENT WHERE THERE ACTUALLY WAS HARM, I THINK WE'D
[00:55:29] SAY, OH, WE DEFINITELY NEED INVESTIGATIVE POWERS. RIGHT.
[00:55:32] I THINK THIS IN SOME WAYS IT WILL RESOLVE ITSELF.
[00:55:35] YOU'LL HAVE SPECIFIC, COMPELLING
[00:55:37] INCIDENTS THAT REQUIRE THAT.
[00:55:40] ANYTHING, EVEN YOU WANT TO ADD.
[00:55:44] I THINK THERE'S ALSO THERE'S ALSO A RANGE OF WAYS THAT THIS KIND OF THING CAN WORK, LIKE CAN
[00:55:48] BE DESIGNED, THAT THIS KIND OF INVESTIGATION CAN BE DESIGNED.
[00:55:50] AND SOME OF THE MAYBE MOST SALIENT EXAMPLES OF
[00:55:53] INVESTIGATIONS ARE THE VERY HIGH LEVEL POLITICAL ONES.
[00:55:56] BUT THERE'S A LOT OF INDUSTRIES THAT HAVE JUST ONGOING KIND OF
[00:55:59] SAFETY INCIDENTS, INVESTIGATIONS, LEARNINGS, BEST
[00:56:02] PRACTICES THAT ARE HAPPENING MORE TO A TECHNICAL LEVEL. SO HERE, YOU KNOW, ONE PLACE MY
[00:56:06] MIND GOES IS THERE'S BEEN A RECENT DISCUSSION INITIATED BY
[00:56:10] THIS OFFICE OF GOOGLE OF COULD THERE BE SOME KIND OF GOVERNMENT
[00:56:12] SUPERVISED SELF-REGULATORY ORGANIZATION FOR FRONTIER AI
[00:56:16] DEVELOPMENT. THERE YOU COULD IMAGINE A PRETTY IN-DEPTH INVESTIGATION THAT
[00:56:19] REALLY WOULDN'T BE SORT OF BEING RUN OUT OF VERY HIGH LEVEL POLITICAL ORGANIZATION OR PARTS
[00:56:23] OF GOVERNMENT, BUT WOULD BE KIND OF HANDLED BY THESE TECHNICAL
[00:56:27] EXPERTS AT THE TECHNICAL LEVEL. SO AND I THINK OF, YOU KNOW, AVIATION INCIDENTS AS AN EXAMPLE
[00:56:31] OF A PLACE WHERE THIS HAS WORKED QUITE WELL. AND THERE'S A LOT OF EXISTING
[00:56:34] PRACTICES ABOUT HOW DO YOU LEARN AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE FROM ANY
[00:56:37] GIVEN INCIDENT, INCLUDING BOTH ONES WHERE HARM WAS CAUSED, AS
[00:56:40] WELL AS AS WELL AS NEAR MISSES? YEAH. I'LL JUST PICK UP ON THAT BECAUSE IT'S A REALLY GOOD POINT
[00:56:44] FROM HELEN. RIGHT. THIS IS ONE OF THE WAYS THAT WE'VE HANDLED THESE THESE RISKS
[00:56:47] OF ABUSE IN THE PAST IS THAT WHO
[00:56:49] YOU PUT THE RESPONSIBILITY IN THE HANDS OF MAKES A BIG DIFFERENCE, RIGHT?
[00:56:53] IS THAT PERSON VERY ARE THEY POLITICALLY APPOINTED? ARE THEY EASILY REMOVED?
[00:56:56] DO THEY HAVE A TECHNICAL BACKGROUND?
[00:56:58] DO THEY SEE THEMSELVES AS AN INVESTIGATOR OR A SORT OF A
[00:57:02] SERIOUS TECHNICAL PERSON WHO'S TRYING TO FIGURE THE QUESTION OUT?
[00:57:06] OR DO THEY SEE THEMSELVES AS SOMEONE WHO HAS ADVANCING MORE
[00:57:08] IDEOLOGICAL OR POLICY BASED PRIORITIES? AND YOU CAN DO THAT WITHIN
[00:57:12] GOVERNMENT BY PLACING THESE RESPONSIBILITIES WITHIN, SAY,
[00:57:17] YOU KNOW, YOU COULD FIND PLENTY OF PEOPLE WITHIN THE NSA, THE
[00:57:21] DOJ, WITHIN PARTS OF THE DLC,
[00:57:23] LIKE CASEY THAT COULD DO THIS AND WHO WOULD SEE THEMSELVES
[00:57:27] PRIMARILY AS EXPERTS WHO HAVE A TECHNICAL MANDATE. YOU CAN ALSO DO THIS OUTSIDE OF
[00:57:31] GOVERNMENT. RIGHT. IF YOU'RE RELYING ON AUDITORS OR OTHER THIRD PARTIES TO LOOK INTO
[00:57:35] THINGS, THIS PROVIDES SOME LAYER OF INSULATION WHERE THEY'RE NOT AS DIRECTLY CONTROLLED BY THE
[00:57:38] GOVERNMENT. I THINK YOU ALMOST MAYBE I MEAN,
[00:57:42] I HAVEN'T I HAVEN'T ACTUALLY WRITTEN A PIECE LIKE THIS, AND I
[00:57:45] DON'T KNOW IF I FLOYD CONCLUDED YOU ALMOST, YOU KNOW, ALMOST NEEDS TO BE PARTLY OUTSIDE OF GOVERNMENT, GIVEN THAT WE DON'T
[00:57:50] HAVE INDEPENDENT AGENCIES ANYMORE. AND THAT'S A CALL THAT THE SUPREME COURT MADE. RIGHT.
[00:57:53] AND SO THERE ARE ALL KINDS OF QUESTIONS WITH A FINRA TYPE ENTITY ABOUT HOW YOU STRUCTURE IT.
[00:57:57] HOW DO YOU AVOID INDUSTRY CAPTURE? THERE'S A WHOLE OTHER SET OF
[00:58:00] PROBLEMS, BUT AT LEAST THE INDEPENDENCE ASPECT OF IT COULD
[00:58:03] BE SOMETHING THAT WOULD BE HELPFUL.
[00:58:06] I MEAN, MY VIEW HAS ALWAYS BEEN THAT LIKE COMPARING HOW TO
[00:58:10] MANAGE TO LIKE A SINGLE EXAMPLE, ALL OF HOW WE'VE DONE IN THE
[00:58:14] PAST IS TO SIMPLISTIC AND WE NEED TO BE MORE SOPHISTICATED,
[00:58:17] MIX AND MATCH VARIOUS ELEMENTS TO MAKE SOMETHING THAT'S
[00:58:20] UNIQUELY SUITED FOR A. THE NEXT QUESTION IS ALSO FROM
[00:58:24] FROM THE SAME PERSON, MIKE HARRIGAN PRIMARILY FOR HELEN,
[00:58:28] BUT OF COURSE ANYONE WHO'S WELCOME TO JOIN IN.
[00:58:31] IT IS FRONTIER LAB EMPLOYEES
[00:58:33] SEEM TO HAVE OUTSIZED INFLUENCE
[00:58:35] OVER ADDRESSING ETHICAL CONCERNS.
[00:58:38] AND I HOW CAN WE OR SHOULD WE
[00:58:42] STRENGTHEN OR CODIFY THIS? AND DO YOU HAVE ANY CONCERNS
[00:58:44] ABOUT LAB EMPLOYEES PLAYING SORT OF A DE FACTO REGULATORY ROLE?
[00:58:48] I MEAN, CONCERNS ABOUT LAB EMPLOYEES PLAYING THIS ROLE?
[00:58:52] I THINK IT'S JUST THE OBVIOUS ONE OF IT'S IT'S A VERY SMALL GROUP OF PEOPLE IN A VERY
[00:58:56] SPECIFIC CULTURE THAT DOESN'T, YOU KNOW, AND IF THAT IS THE
[00:59:00] ONLY SET OF PEOPLE WHO ARE KIND OF PROVIDING ANY KIND OF CHECK
[00:59:03] OR OVERSIGHT HERE, THEN THAT'S LEAVING A LARGE NUMBER OF
[00:59:05] STAKEHOLDERS OUT.
[00:59:08] IN TERMS OF WAYS TO STRENGTHEN THE EFFECT.
[00:59:10] I THINK THE BIGGEST ONE WOULD BE LOOKING AT WHISTLEBLOWER PROTECTIONS, WHICH I KNOW,
[00:59:14] MACKENZIE, YOU AND I HAVE DONE SOME WORK ON THIS SORT OF BASIC
[00:59:18] PROBLEM STATEMENT HERE IS THERE ARE A LOT OF EXISTING
[00:59:22] WHISTLEBLOWER PROTECTIONS IN LAW. THEY ARE GENERALLY DESIGNED FOR
[00:59:25] IF ILLEGAL CONDUCT HAS HAPPENED. AND RIGHT NOW, BECAUSE THERE IS
[00:59:28] SO LITTLE REGULATION OF ADVANCING AI DEVELOPMENT IN
[00:59:32] FRONTIER AI DEVELOPMENT, IF YOU'RE I THINK A SITUATION THAT
[00:59:35] A LOT OF COMPANY EMPLOYEES FEEL
[00:59:37] THAT THEY ARE IN OR MIGHT IN THE FUTURE FEEL THAT THEY'RE IN, IS,
[00:59:40] HEY, MY COMPANY IS MAKING VERY, VERY RISKY BETS IS MAKING
[00:59:43] DECISIONS THAT ARE NOT BASED ON STRONG EVIDENCE ABOUT THIS BEING
[00:59:47] A, YOU KNOW, A SAFE DECISION OR OR THEY'RE KIND OF PLOWING AHEAD
[00:59:51] RECKLESSLY, BUT THEY'RE NOT ACTUALLY DOING ANYTHING ILLEGAL.
[00:59:53] AND SO I AS THE COMPANY EMPLOYEE, DON'T REALLY HAVE
[00:59:56] RECOURSE TO GO I DON'T KNOW WHO I WOULD TELL. I DON'T THINK I WOULD HAVE PROTECTION FOR BREAKING A
[01:00:00] NON-DISCLOSURE AGREEMENT JUST
[01:00:04] BECAUSE THE YOU KNOW, I AND MY TECHNICAL JUDGMENT AS A COMPANY
[01:00:07] EMPLOYEE, I'M CONCERNED ABOUT THE COMPANY IS DOING. BUT THERE'S NO SORT OF
[01:00:11] REGULATION OUT THERE THAT IS BEING BROKEN. SO I THINK THERE'S BEEN VARIOUS
[01:00:14] PROPOSALS. ONE STRONG ONE COMES FROM SENATOR CHUCK GRASSLEY ON HOW
[01:00:18] YOU COULD CREATE SOME WHISTLEBLOWER PROTECTIONS FOR
[01:00:23] EMPLOYEES. THAT WOULD BE SORT OF THE FIRST FIRST ONE TO COME TO MIND. I'M CURIOUS, MACKENZIE, OR, YOU
[01:00:26] KNOW, ALSO IF THERE'S OTHERS YOU HAVE HOW LONG YOU'RE SPEAKING MY LANGUAGE.
[01:00:30] I THINK THE GRASSLEY BILL IS A GOOD EXAMPLE THAT INCLUDES
[01:00:35] NON-MOBILE NATIONS AS SOMETHING THAT YOU CAN WHISTLEBLOWER ON. AND YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.
[01:00:39] RIGHT. MOST WHISTLEBLOWER REGIMES JUST COVER VIOLATIONS OF LAW. IT'S GOING TO TAKE A LONG TIME
[01:00:43] FOR THE LAW TO CATCH UP AROUND AI. SO A SIMPLER FIX IN THE SHORT
[01:00:46] TERM WOULD BE TO BROADEN THE EXTENT OF THE WHISTLEBLOWER
[01:00:50] PROTECTIONS UNTIL THE LAW CATCHES UP.
[01:00:52] THE NEXT QUESTION IS AIMED AT
[01:00:57] YOU, MACKENZIE. IT'S FROM SAVANNAH TAYLOR AND
[01:00:59] IT'S IN REFERENCE TO YOUR MENTION OF LIABILITY.
[01:01:02] SAFE HARBORS DO YOU HAVE ANY
[01:01:06] SENSE OF WHERE WHERE THE RIGHT PLACE TO DRAW THE LINE IS?
[01:01:09] YOU MENTIONED IT'S TRICKY, BUT HAS IT WORKED IN OTHER INDUSTRIES?
[01:01:13] ARE THERE ANY EXAMPLES YOU COULD GIVE ABOUT HOW IT COULD APPLY IN THE INDUSTRY?
[01:01:17] YEAH. ONE FACTOR THAT ISN'T PRESENT
[01:01:20] HERE THAT CAN MAKE A LIABILITY SAFE HARBOR MORE COMPELLING IS
[01:01:23] IF YOU HAVE REALLY CLEAR BEST PRACTICES TO IMPLEMENT. RIGHT?
[01:01:27] IF YOU HAVE VERY OBVIOUS THINGS, IF YOU DO X, Y, AND Z, YOU
[01:01:31] MITIGATE YOUR RISK CONSIDERABLY. YOU ACTUALLY KNOW WHAT TO DO AND
[01:01:35] IT CAN BE WORTHWHILE TO TRADE LIABLE FOR THAT. RIGHT.
[01:01:38] ACKNOWLEDGING THAT. RIGHT. SOME AMOUNT OF LITIGATION IS
[01:01:41] EITHER FRIVOLOUS OR JUST VERY COSTLY. RIGHT? LIKE GENUINE DISPUTES OVER THINGS.
[01:01:45] BUT IT'S GOING TO COST A LOT OF TIME AND MONEY. IF YOU HAVE THINGS THAT YOU KNOW
[01:01:48] ARE GOOD, MAYBE YOU CAN MAKE THAT TRADE. I DON'T THINK THAT THAT'S LIKELY
[01:01:51] TO HAPPEN HERE. AND I CONTEXT. AND SO, IN FACT, LIABILITY IS A
[01:01:55] REALLY GOOD FALLBACK. RIGHT? IT'S A REALLY CONTEXT DEPENDENT
[01:01:58] INQUIRY THAT SAYS, GIVEN EVERYTHING THAT YOU KNEW WAS
[01:02:02] WHAT YOU DID, REASONABLE. AND WHEN YOU DON'T HAVE CLEAR RULES OF THE ROAD, THAT MIGHT
[01:02:06] ACTUALLY BE THE CLOSEST THING TO A REASONABLE STANDARD. RIGHT?
[01:02:09] IF YOU THINK THAT ALSO THE MITIGATIONS ARE VERY TECHNICAL
[01:02:12] IN NATURE AND THAT IN FACT THERE IS A LOT OF KNOWLEDGE IN INDUSTRY ON WHAT IS BEST TO DO,
[01:02:16] THEN RELYING ON A STANDARD THAT ASKS, GIVEN WHAT THEY KNEW AND
[01:02:19] THEIR LEVEL OF EXPERTISE AND WHAT THE TECHNICAL STATE OF THE ART IS, RIGHT.
[01:02:23] ALL OF THOSE FACTORS THAT FACTOR INTO LIABILITY IN SOME WAYS
[01:02:26] DEFERS TO THEIR EXPERTISE AND THEN HOLDS THEM ACCOUNTABLE TO
[01:02:29] THAT EXPERTISE. PEOPLE HAVE ALSO TALKED ABOUT
[01:02:33] EXPANDING LIABILITY. THAT'S WHERE I THINK WHEN I SAID
[01:02:35] IT'S COMPLICATED. THAT'S THE MORE COMPLICATED PART IN MY MIND WHERE YOU HAVE TO
[01:02:39] THINK ABOUT A LOT OF COMPLICATED INCENTIVES. TORT REFORM IN A POSITIVE SENSE
[01:02:43] IS IS RATHER RARE HISTORICALLY.
[01:02:45] I THINK WHAT I'M MORE CLEAR ON
[01:02:47] IS THAT BROAD SAFE HARBORS ARE
[01:02:51] ARE MORE OBVIOUSLY NEGATIVE, IN
[01:02:53] PART BECAUSE RIGHT NOW THEY'RE SETTING GOOD INCENTIVES THAT SAY
[01:02:57] THIS IS A CATCH ALL IF THE LAW ISN'T THERE.
[01:03:00] AND IF YOU REMOVE THAT, EVEN IF THE COMPANIES ARE NOT RESISTING
[01:03:04] SUPER RATIONALLY OR VERY DIRECTLY, THEY HAVE TO SAY,
[01:03:07] WELL, YESTERDAY MY RISK LEVEL OR
[01:03:10] HOW MUCH MONETARY DAMAGES MIGHT COME OUT OF OUR COMPANY ARE HERE
[01:03:14] TODAY. THEY'RE DOWN HERE LIKE THERE'S SOME DELTA, RIGHT?
[01:03:16] LIKE I CAN NOW MY RISK TOLERANCE SHOULD GO UP AND SOME SOME
[01:03:20] RELEVANT RESPECT. AND I WOULD EXPECT THAT WOULD BE
[01:03:23] A REALLY SALIENT SIGNAL IF YOU ACTUALLY PASSED IT.
[01:03:26] SO MUCH CLEARER ON BE CAUTIOUS AROUND LIABILITY.
[01:03:29] SAFE HARBORS LIKELY ONLY TRADE THEM WHERE YOU HAVE SOME OBVIOUS
[01:03:31] BEST PRACTICE TO IMPLEMENT AND
[01:03:35] IF NOT, LEAVE IT BE OKAY.
[01:03:39] WE HAVE ONE LAST QUESTION FROM THE AUDIENCE AND THEN WE'LL
[01:03:41] WE'LL MOVE TO WRAP UP.
[01:03:43] AND THIS IS FROM WILL TORBEN
[01:03:46] HIME OF NEXT PILLAR CAPITAL. IT'S FROM MATT PRIMARILY.
[01:03:49] SO WE'VE SEEN ADVANCES IN CYBER CAPABILITIES.
[01:03:52] WE'VE ALSO SEEN ADVANCES IN JUST
[01:03:54] SORT OF AI COACHING AERATION.
[01:03:57] SO THE QUESTION IS ABOUT THE
[01:04:01] INTERACTION BETWEEN THESE TWO. DOES A.I. GENERATED CODE TEND TO
[01:04:04] BE MORE ROBUST TO CYBER ATTACKS?
[01:04:06] AND IS IT A PROMISING SOLUTION
[01:04:09] HAND-IN-HAND WITH OPEN MODELS TO STRENGTHEN DEFENSES?
[01:04:12] SO I THINK THE ANSWER IS IT DEPENDS, RIGHT?
[01:04:15] I THINK THAT THERE ARE TOOLS THAT HAVE ALREADY BEEN RELEASED
[01:04:17] AND WILL BE SORT OF, YOU KNOW, FURTHER DEVELOPED IN TERMS OF
[01:04:21] THINGS LIKE AS SOMEONE AS A, YOU KNOW, A SOFTWARE ENGINEER IS
[01:04:25] WRITING THE CODE AND ACTUALLY
[01:04:27] HAVING THE AI DEALT IN AND AND
[01:04:29] DETECT CYBER VULNERABILITIES AND BUGS AND THINGS LIKE THAT.
[01:04:33] AND SO I THINK THAT THERE'S ABSOLUTELY THE POTENTIAL FOR THAT TO HAPPEN.
[01:04:37] AND IT'S SOMETHING THAT WE NEED TO INCENTIVIZE AND ENCOURAGE. BUT IT VERY MUCH, AS I SAID,
[01:04:41] DEPENDS, RIGHT? IT'S IT'S SORT OF AN INSTITUTIONAL DESIGN, AN
[01:04:44] INCENTIVE QUESTION RATHER THAN SOMETHING THAT I WOULD
[01:04:47] CHARACTERIZE AS BEING INEVITABLE.
[01:04:52] SO I THINK AT THIS POINT, I'D
[01:04:54] LOVE TO YOU KNOW, WE'VE TALKED ABOUT A LOT OF THINGS, JUST LOVE
[01:04:58] TO GET A SENSE OF IF YOU HAVE ANY CONCLUDING REMARKS.
[01:05:02] I'M PARTICULARLY INTERESTED IN, MAYBE IF YOU'VE CHANGED YOUR MIND ABOUT POLICY INTERVENTIONS
[01:05:05] OR IF YOU HAVE THOUGHT OF NEW THINGS THAT WE COULD BE DOING AS
[01:05:09] A RESULT OF THIS CONVERSATION,
[01:05:11] BUT FEEL FREE TO TO TO CONCLUDE
[01:05:14] IT ANY WAY YOU WANT.
[01:05:17] MATT, MAYBE I CAN START WITH YOU.
[01:05:19] YEAH, I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE AREAS THAT WE HAVEN'T
[01:05:23] HAD AS MUCH DISCUSSION OF, BUT I THINK THAT WE NEED TO GIVE A LOT
[01:05:26] MORE THOUGHT TO IS THE WAY IN
[01:05:29] WHICH AGENTS, YOU KNOW, UNDER
[01:05:30] THEIR CURRENT DESIGN ARE FRAMED
[01:05:34] IN TERMS OF AND INCENTIVES WISE
[01:05:37] TO ONLY ACHIEVE THEIR GOAL AND IS THAT SORT OF AN INEVITABLE
[01:05:41] RESULT OF THE WAY THAT WE'RE GOING TO IMPLEMENT AI? OR ARE THERE WAYS THAT WE CAN
[01:05:46] TEMPER IT? RIGHT. AND I THINK THAT THAT'S A CONVERSATION WORTH HAVING AS
[01:05:49] WELL AS AS CAME UP IN THE HUGGY
[01:05:52] FACE INCIDENT OF THIS QUESTION OF THE WAY IN WHICH AGENTS WORK
[01:05:56] TOGETHER. RIGHT? BECAUSE THAT COMBINES WITH THEIR
[01:05:58] THEIR SORT OF DESIRE IN SOME CASES TO EVADE CONTROLS AND TO
[01:06:02] ACCOMPLISH A GOAL IN A WAY THAT THEY'VE BEEN TOLD NOT TO.
[01:06:05] AND SO SO I THINK THAT THOSE ARE WE NEED TO HAVE A SORT OF
[01:06:09] FURTHER DISCUSSION ABOUT HOW
[01:06:10] WE'RE GOING TO DESIGN AND MODELS
[01:06:13] IN ORDER TO ADDRESS SOME OF THOSE CHALLENGES.
[01:06:16] I THINK FACT THAT ONE
[01:06:19] OVERARCHING THOUGHT IT WOULD BE
[01:06:21] THAT AI POLICY IS LARGELY A
[01:06:23] QUESTION OF MANAGING REALLY DEEP UNCERTAINTY.
[01:06:25] AND OF COURSE THAT APPLIES TO ANY INDUSTRY, BUT PARTICULARLY
[01:06:30] HERE, RIGHT WHERE WE'RE HAVING
[01:06:32] FOUNDATIONAL QUESTIONS AS TO HOW
[01:06:34] DOES THIS REVEAL THAT THE MODELS HAVE SOME AMOUNT OF DIRECTION TO
[01:06:38] DECEIVE US. RIGHT. THESE ARE THINGS THAT ARE NOT
[01:06:41] PRESENTED IN OTHER DOMAINS. AND I THINK THAT THERE'S A
[01:06:45] COUPLE IMPLICATIONS FOR POLICY. ONE IS THAT ALL OF THIS INFORMATIONAL STUFF THAT WE'RE
[01:06:48] TALKING ABOUT, IT CAN SOUND KIND OF BORING, BUT I THINK ACTUALLY
[01:06:51] THIS IS THE CORE OF ACTUALLY FIGURING THINGS OUT IN THE FUTURE.
[01:06:54] OTHERWISE, WE'RE GOING TO BE COMPLETELY CONFUSED.
[01:06:57] THAT'S BOTH GOVERNMENT CAPACITY THING. THAT'S A GATHERING AND SHARING
[01:07:00] THE INFORMATION THING. IT'S MAKING SURE THAT PEOPLE IN THE PUBLIC CAN ANALYZE THAT
[01:07:05] INFORMATION. ALL OF THIS IS KIND OF PREPARING US TO TRY TO MAKE MORE SENSIBLE
[01:07:08] POLICY IN THE FUTURE.
[01:07:10] AND THEN SECONDLY, I GUESS LIKE A COROLLARY OF THAT WAS
[01:07:14] SOMETHING HELEN SAID EARLIER ABOUT JUST THE IMPORTANCE OF
[01:07:16] INTERNAL USE, VISIBILITY OR NO
[01:07:19] LONGER TREATING DEPLOYMENT AS
[01:07:21] SOME, YOU KNOW, HALLOWED MOMENT AT WHICH EVERYTHING CHANGES.
[01:07:25] AND THAT'S WHAT YOUR YOU KNOW, THAT'S THE DEADLINE YOU'RE WORKING WITH. I THINK IT IS GOING TO BE MUCH
[01:07:28] MORE A MATTER OF AS THE
[01:07:31] TECHNOLOGY BECOMES MORE CAPABLE, THERE MAY DEVELOP A LARGER AND
[01:07:35] LARGER GAP BETWEEN WHAT PEOPLE KNOW INSIDE OF THE COMPANIES AND
[01:07:39] WHAT POLICYMAKERS KNOW. THIS IS ALREADY EXISTS, BUT I'M
[01:07:42] TALKING ABOUT SOMETHING MUCH MORE SEVERE THAN THAT. AND IF YOU WANT TO BE IN A
[01:07:46] POSITION WHERE WE'RE NOT HAVING RAPID AD HOC DECISIONS MADE DUE
[01:07:50] TO SURPRISE AND CONCERNING THINGS HAPPENING IN THE WORLD, THAT'S PROBABLY WHERE YOU HAVE
[01:07:53] TO START. AND THERE ARE A LOT OF TRADEOFFS INVOLVED IN THAT.
[01:07:56] AND I DON'T MEAN TO TO MAKE THEM SOUND SMALL. THAT'S WHY WE NEED TO BE
[01:08:00] THINKING ABOUT THIS AND TRYING TO BUILD A SYSTEM WHERE YOU GET SOME AMOUNT OF VISIBILITY AND
[01:08:04] SORT OF MITIGATE ALL OF THE
[01:08:06] TRADE OFFS OR ABUSE CONCERNS THAT MIGHT COME WITH THAT.
[01:08:09] YEAH, WE DIDN'T COORDINATE THIS, BUT BOTH OF THOSE SET UP PERFECTLY. WHAT I WANTED TO SAY.
[01:08:13] SO IN TERMS OF HOW ARE WE DESIGNING THESE INCREASINGLY ADVANCED AI SYSTEMS, WHAT IS
[01:08:16] INEVITABLE? WHAT CAN WE CHOOSE? AND THEN THROUGH THE IMPORTANCE OF INFORMATION FOR MAKING POLICY
[01:08:20] HERE, A HUGE THING THAT'S ON MY MIND RIGHT NOW IS JUST WE NEED
[01:08:23] TO KNOW WAY MORE ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED IN THESE DIFFERENT INCIDENTS OPENING.
[01:08:27] AI HAS SAID THAT THEY'RE GOING TO RELEASE MORE HUGGING FACE HAS BEEN GREAT IN TERMS OF RELEASING LOTS OF INFORMATION.
[01:08:31] UK SECURITY INSTITUTE RELEASED VERY DETAILED REPORTING, BUT
[01:08:35] OPENING I ANTHROPIC REALLY NEED
[01:08:38] TO SHARE A LOT MORE BOTH ABOUT WHAT IS SPECIFICALLY HAPPENED
[01:08:41] HERE AND THEN GOING FORWARD. IDEALLY DUE TO, YOU KNOW, LEGAL
[01:08:46] REQUIREMENTS TO RELEASE MORE INFORMATION. BUT IF NOT, THEN AT A MINIMUM ON
[01:08:48] A VOLUNTARY BASIS BECAUSE THEY
[01:08:50] ARE DOING SOME VERY CONSEQUENTIAL THINGS BEHIND CLOSED DOORS RIGHT NOW.
[01:08:54] WE NEED TO WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO SEE MORE. WELL, THAT BRINGS US TO THE
[01:08:58] CONCLUSION OF OUR PROGRAM. SINCE A BRIEF CONCLUDING
[01:09:00] REMARKS, I WANT TO THANK
[01:09:02] REPRESENTATIVE SUBRAMANIAN, IAN,
[01:09:05] HELEN MACKENZIE AND MATT FOR THEIR KEEN INSIGHTS TODAY.
[01:09:09] I THINK WHAT I TAKE AWAY FROM IS
[01:09:11] THAT THESE INCIDENTS CLEARLY REQUIRE SORT OF AN URGENT
[01:09:15] RESPONSE AND THAT THERE ARE THINGS WE CAN DO. CHIEF AMONG THEM THAT WE HEARD A
[01:09:19] LOT ABOUT, ENHANCED INCIDENT REPORTING, CLOSING THE
[01:09:21] INFORMATION GAP BETWEEN WHAT THE LABS KNOW AND WHAT GOVERNMENTS KNOW.
[01:09:25] THINKING ABOUT EXPANDING TECHNICAL EXPERTISE IN GOVERNMENT AND THEN THINKING
[01:09:29] ABOUT THE INCENTIVES AND INFRASTRUCTURE TO MAKE ALL OF
[01:09:32] THIS REPORTING GO WELL.
[01:09:36] AND SO, LIKE I SAID IN THE
[01:09:38] INTRO, BOTH MCKENZIE AND I HAVE
[01:09:41] WRITTEN REPORTS ABOUT THIS.
[01:09:45] VISAS AND LAWFARE. THIS IS ON OUR WEBSITE. SO I ENCOURAGE YOU TO READ
[01:09:49] THOSE. AND JUST SOME REALLY QUICK THANKS TO THE TEAM THAT HELPED
[01:09:52] PUT THIS EVENT TOGETHER. SO ON MY TEAM, THAT'S CLAIRE GOLDMAN AND NICOLE PEREIRA.
[01:09:57] THANK YOU VERY MUCH. WE ALSO HAD SUPPORT FROM ANTONIA
[01:10:00] RIVERA, FLYNN AND TORY BLAKENEY
[01:10:02] IN EVENTS, SOPHIA CHAVEZ AND EVA
[01:10:05] ROSE IN EXTERNAL RELATIONS ARE REALLY SUBSTANTIAL.
[01:10:10] STREAMING AND BROADCASTING TEAM FOR OUR NEEDS.
[01:10:12] AND CLAIRE KAMI AND ROB LOCK ON THE WEB TEAM.
[01:10:16] AND THANKS AGAIN FOR COMING OUT IN THE MIDDLE OF VACATION SEASON TO LISTEN TO US.
[01:10:19] AT LEAST SOME OF US WILL STICK AROUND FOR A FEW MINUTES.
[01:10:22] IF YOU WANT TO CATCH UP WITH US.
[01:10:25] THANK YOU.
[01:10:43] FOR.
[01:10:49] LIVE THIS MORNING AT NINE EASTERN ON C SPAN THREE. THE SENATE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE
[01:10:53] HEARS FROM FBI DIRECTOR KASH PATEL DURING A HEARING ON
[01:10:56] OVERSIGHT OF THE FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION.
[01:11:00] WATCH IT LIVE THIS MORNING AT NINE EASTERN ON C SPAN THREE. C-SPAN NOW OUR FREE MOBILE VIDEO
[01:11:04] APP OR ONLINE AT C-SPAN DOT ORG.
[01:11:13] DEMOCRACY IS ALWAYS AN UNFINISHED CREATION.
[01:11:15] DEMOCRACY IS WORTH DYING FOR.
[01:11:18] DEMOCRACY BELONGS TO US ALL.
[01:11:20] WE ARE HERE IN THE SANCTUARY OF DEMOCRACY.
[01:11:23] GREAT RESPONSIBILITIES FALL ONCE
[01:11:25] AGAIN TO THE GREAT DEMOCRACY. THIS AMERICAN DEMOCRACY IS
[01:11:29] BIGGER THAN ANY ONE PERSON.
[01:11:30] FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY MUST BE
[01:11:33] CONSTANTLY GUARDED AND PROTECTED.
[01:11:36] WE ARE STILL AT OUR CORE, A DEMOCRACY.
[01:11:38] THIS IS ALSO A MASSIVE VICTORY
[01:11:40] FOR DEMOCRACY AND FOR FREEDOM.
[01:11:50] REPUBLICAN SENATOR DAN SULLIVAN AND HIS DEMOCRATIC CHALLENGER IN
[01:11:54] ALASKA'S 2026 U.S. SENATE RACE, MARY PELL TOLA FACED OFF IN A DEBATE