CSPAN3 — A Conversation with Dick Cheney
20260920 165700 UTC
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[00:00:01] THAN OUR TRANSPORTATION SECURITY OFFICERS, WHO SCREEN NEARLY 2
[00:00:04] MILLION PEOPLE A DAY. JUST AS THE SYMBOL OF OUR
[00:00:08] COMMITMENT TO SERVE IS WOVEN IN
[00:00:11] THE OFFICERS SHIRTS. THIS COLLECTION OF OBJECTS IN
[00:00:15] ARTIFACTS WEAVES SO MANY INDIVIDUAL STORIES INTO THE
[00:00:19] FABRIC OF A SINGLE DAY. A DAY THAT LITERALLY CHANGE THE
[00:00:23] WORLD. AS WE CONTINUE HONORING THE MEMORY OF THOSE KILLED ON
[00:00:26] SEPTEMBER 11TH, 2000, ONE EXHIBITIONS SUCH AS THIS ONE
[00:00:30] BECOME EVEN MORE ESSENTIAL TO
[00:00:32] OUR SHARED APPRECIATION OF WHAT
[00:00:35] THAT DAY WILL ALWAYS MEAN IN OUR
[00:00:37] HISTORY AND IN THE HISTORY OF TSA.
[00:00:39] THANK YOU.
[00:00:46] YOU YOU CAN VIEW ADDITIONAL OBJECTS AND LEARN MORE ABOUT THE
[00:00:50] SMITHSONIAN'S SEPTEMBER 11TH COLLECTIONS ONLINE BY VISITING
[00:00:53] AMERICAN HISTORY DOT SDK.
[00:00:55] EDU SLASH.
[00:00:58] SEPTEMBER 11TH.
[00:01:03] ALL WEEKEND AMERICAN HISTORY TV
[00:01:06] FEATURES ARCHIVAL FOOTAGE, FIRST PERSON ACCOUNTS AND TOURS OF
[00:01:09] MEMORIALS AND MUSEUMS FOR THE 25TH ANNIVERSARY OF THE SEPTEMBER 11TH, 2000.
[00:01:13] ONE TERRORIST ATTACKS. CHECK YOUR PROGRAM GUIDE OR
[00:01:18] VISIT C SPAN.ORG/HISTORY FOR A FULL SCHEDULE.
[00:01:43] GOOD MORNING, EVERYBODY.
[00:01:46] WELCOME TO THE AMERICAN ENTERPRISE INSTITUTE.
[00:01:49] I'M DANIELLE PLETKA AND THE VICE PRESIDENT FOR FOREIGN AND
[00:01:52] DEFENSE POLICY STUDIES HERE AT AEI. LET ME FIRST REMIND EVERYBODY,
[00:01:57] PLEASE TO TURN OFF THEIR TELEPHONES OR TO PUT THEM ON
[00:02:00] VIBRATE AND ASK EVERYBODY WHEN
[00:02:02] THE SESSION ENDS TO PLEASE
[00:02:04] REMAIN SEATED IN ORDER TO ALLOW
[00:02:07] OUR SPEAKERS TO LEAVE THE ROOM.
[00:02:10] A FINAL HOUSEKEEPING NOTE. BOOKSELLERS ARE AVAILABLE WITH
[00:02:14] THE BOOK IN THE RECEPTION AFTER
[00:02:17] THE END OF THE EVENT, WHEN AEI PRESIDENT ARTHUR BROOKS, WHO
[00:02:22] UNFORTUNATELY COULDN'T BE HERE, INVITED VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY
[00:02:25] CHENEY TO JOIN US TODAY. IT WAS WITH A VIEW TO
[00:02:29] REMEMBERING THE ATTACKS OF NINE, 11, TEN YEARS LATER AND
[00:02:34] CONSIDERING SOME OF THE LESSONS LEARNED AND THOSE THAT WERE NOT.
[00:02:36] SINCE THAT DAY.
[00:02:40] BUT THE FIRST THING TO RECALL ABOUT 911 AND ABOUT THE LONG WAR
[00:02:44] THAT WE ARE STILL FIGHTING IS
[00:02:46] THE MANY WHO GAVE THEIR LIVES.
[00:02:49] THE FAMILIES WHO SACRIFICED
[00:02:51] LOVED ONES AND THE AWFUL LOSS,
[00:02:56] FIRST AND FOREMOST. NOW IS THE TIME TO REMEMBER
[00:02:58] THOSE MANY BRAVE AMERICANS WHO DIED AT HOME.
[00:03:02] OUR FIGHTING MEN AND WOMEN WHO RISKED EVERYTHING SO THAT WE CAN
[00:03:06] LIVE IN FREEDOM.
[00:03:08] AND OUR INVALUABLE ALLIES FROM
[00:03:10] TOO MANY COUNTRIES TO NAME WHO SHARE OUR CAUSE.
[00:03:14] AS SOME OF YOU KNOW, VICE
[00:03:18] PRESIDENT CHENEY HAS RECENTLY
[00:03:18] PUBLISHED A MEMOIR IN MY TIME,
[00:03:22] WRITTEN WITH HIS DAUGHTER, LIZ CHENEY.
[00:03:24] WE UNDERSTAND IT WILL DEBUT AT
[00:03:27] NUMBER ONE ON THE NEW YORK TIMES
[00:03:29] BESTSELLER LIST MONDAY.
[00:03:36] TODAY, HE JOINS US WITH WEEKLY STANDARD SENIOR WRITER AND
[00:03:41] BESTSELLING AUTHOR STEVE HAYES FOR CONVERSE NATION ABOUT THAT
[00:03:44] ATTACK ON OUR NATION, ABOUT DECISIONS MADE SINCE THEN, AND
[00:03:48] SOME REFLECTIONS ON AN AMAZING
[00:03:50] LIFE IN POLITICS AND PRETTY MUCH WHATEVER ELSE HE AND STEVE
[00:03:54] CHOOSE TO TALK ABOUT TODAY AND THE HOUR THAT WE HAVE IN THE
[00:03:58] TIME REMAINING AFTER THAT CONVERSATION.
[00:04:01] WE'LL HAVE A Q&A SESSION MODERATED BY STEVE.
[00:04:06] LYNNE CHENEY HAS BEEN A SCHOLAR AT AEI FOR MANY YEARS.
[00:04:09] -- CHENEY IS AGAIN A MEMBER OF OUR BOARD OF TRUSTEES.
[00:04:13] WE'RE SO GLAD TO HAVE THEM AS
[00:04:15] PART OF OUR AEI FAMILY. AND WE THANK THEM.
[00:04:17] AND YOU ALL FOR JOINING US HERE
[00:04:22] TODAY.
[00:04:28] WELL, THANK YOU.
[00:04:30] I WON'T INTERRUPT.
[00:04:34] REMEMBER, YOU'RE A REPORTER. THAT'S RIGHT.
[00:04:36] LOOK, I GET BACK, PAY BACK AND I
[00:04:41] JUST WANTED TO SAY A WORD AND THEN I'LL TURN IT OVER TO MR. HAYES.
[00:04:45] IT'S THE BOOK I WROTE IS A
[00:04:47] MEMOIR COVERS ALL 70 YEARS OF MY
[00:04:52] LIFE. THE EARLY YEARS, OUR SHORT WHEN
[00:04:55] A LOT OF GOOD STUFF TO WRITE ABOUT THAT PERIOD OF TIME.
[00:04:59] BUT THE LAST HALF OF THE BOOK
[00:05:04] ROUGHLY FOCUSES ON THE BUSH CHENEY ADMINISTRATION.
[00:05:07] MY YEARS AS VICE PRESIDENT AND
[00:05:09] THE BOOK OPENS IN THE PROLOG
[00:05:13] WITH A RECOUNTING THE EVENTS.
[00:05:15] AS I SAW THEM ON 911 AND THEN
[00:05:21] MUCH OF THAT LAST HALF OF THE
[00:05:23] BOOK DEALS WITH WHAT WE HAD TO DO DURING THE COURSE OF OUR
[00:05:28] SUBSEQUENT SEVEN AND A HALF YEARS IN ORDER TO KEEP THE COUNTRY SAFE.
[00:05:31] SOME OF THE CONTROVERSIES WE WERE INVOLVED IN ON THINGS LIKE THE TERRORIST SURVEILLANCE
[00:05:36] PROGRAM, ENHANCED INTERROGATION, AND SO FORTH.
[00:05:39] SO THAT'S A LARGE PART OF THE
[00:05:41] BOOK IS RELEVANT WITH RESPECT TO
[00:05:45] 911 AND THE AFTERMATH, ALTHOUGH I DON'T WANT TO MISLEAD ANYBODY,
[00:05:49] THERE'S AN AWFUL LOT IN THERE OF OTHER SUBJECTS AS WELL.
[00:05:51] SO GOING BACK TO FACT, I GUESS I
[00:05:55] HAVE BEEN FIVE REPUBLICAN ADMINISTRATIONS. EISENHOWER, I WORKED IN FOUR OF
[00:05:59] THEM, WORKED CLOSELY WITH THE FIFTH.
[00:06:02] THE REAGAN ADMINISTRATION IS PART OF THE HOUSE REPUBLICAN LEADERSHIP.
[00:06:05] AND SO I TRY TO COVER ALL OF
[00:06:08] THAT PERIOD OF TIME. AND OBVIOUSLY THERE'S SOMETHING
[00:06:11] HOW WE HAD TO LEAVE OUT. BUT THERE'S ENOUGH THERE THAT STEVE'S TRYING TO MAKE A LIVING
[00:06:14] WRITING ARTICLES ABOUT ME.
[00:06:19] SO WHAT I'M GOING TO TURN OVER TO HIM. EXCELLENT. WELL, THANK YOU.
[00:06:22] AND THANKS TO DANNY AND AMY FOR HAVING US.
[00:06:25] JUST TO GIVE YOU AN IDEA OF WHAT I THOUGHT I WOULD TRY TO DO THIS
[00:06:29] MORNING, I'M GOING TO START WITH SOME QUESTIONS ABOUT 911, SPECIFICALLY AND PUSH YOU IN
[00:06:34] PARTICULAR ABOUT YOUR PERSONAL VIEWS ON THESE THINGS, BECAUSE I
[00:06:37] KNOW YOU LOVE TO KIND OF PUT YOURSELF ON THE COUCH LIKE THAT.
[00:06:40] PUBLIC SELF-REFLECTION.
[00:06:43] AND THEN I'M GOING TO GO AND TALK ABOUT A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT
[00:06:47] WAYS IN WHICH THE POLICIES THAT
[00:06:51] EMANATED FROM 911 THAT YOU I THINK IN LARGE PART HELPED DRIVE
[00:06:54] AND TRY TO FILL IN SOME GAPS. I'VE SPENT A LOT OF TIME LOOKING
[00:06:58] AT THE INTERVIEWS THAT YOU'VE DONE SINCE THE BOOK CAME OUT. I'VE READ IT NOW TWICE AND SOME
[00:07:02] QUESTIONS THAT I HAVE REMAINING FOR YOU.
[00:07:04] SO I THINK THAT'S HOW I'D LIKE TO PROCEED. AND THEN AS DANNY MENTIONED,
[00:07:08] WE'LL THROW IT OPEN TO EVERYBODY FOR SOME ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS. THAT WILL PROBABLY BE MUCH
[00:07:12] BETTER THAN MINE. SO I THOUGHT THE FIRST PLACE WE
[00:07:16] WOULD START IS ON THE MORNING OF 911.
[00:07:18] I WOULD BE INTERESTED TO KNOW
[00:07:21] WHEN YOU FIRST KNEW WE WERE
[00:07:23] UNDER ATTACK, NOT WHEN YOU FIRST
[00:07:25] HEARD ABOUT IT, BUT WHEN DID YOU KNOW WE WERE UNDER ATTACK?
[00:07:29] AND WHAT WERE YOUR VERY FIRST THOUGHTS AT THAT MOMENT?
[00:07:32] WELL, THE.
[00:07:35] I WAS IN MY OFFICE IN THE WEST WING WORKING WITH MY
[00:07:40] SPEECHWRITER WHEN MY SECRETARY
[00:07:42] CALLED IN TO REPORT THAT A PLANE HAD STRUCK THE WORLD TRADE
[00:07:46] CENTER IN NEW YORK. WE TURNED ON THE TELEVISION, AND THIS WAS AFTER THE FIRST PLANE
[00:07:50] HAD GONE IN BEFORE ANYTHING ELSE HAD HAPPENED.
[00:07:53] AND IMMEDIATE REACTION WAS TO
[00:07:56] THINK, HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE? THIS IS A REALLY WEIRD ACCIDENT,
[00:07:59] PERFECTLY CLEAR WHETHER THERE WAS NO WAY TO ACCOUNT FOR IT.
[00:08:03] AND THEN AS WE WATCHED, WE SAW THE SECOND PLANE HIT AND THAT
[00:08:07] IMMEDIATELY IN MY MIND, TRIGGERED THE NOTION THAT THIS
[00:08:10] HAD TO BE A TERRORIST ATTACK. GOOD TO HAVE TWO AIRLINERS
[00:08:13] FLYING IN THE WORLD TRADE CENTER WITHIN MINUTES OF EACH OTHER AND
[00:08:17] NOT HAVE IT BE ANYTHING BUT A TERRORIST ATTACK.
[00:08:21] SHORTLY AFTER THAT, I TALKED TO
[00:08:23] THE PRESIDENT DOWN IN FLORIDA
[00:08:27] AND WE TALKED ABOUT A STATEMENT. HE WAS GETTING READY TO ISSUE A
[00:08:31] STATEMENT, AND THAT WAS WHETHER
[00:08:32] OR NOT IT WAS PROPER TO TALK
[00:08:36] ABOUT TERRORISM WITHIN THAT
[00:08:39] CONTEXT OF THAT STATEMENT. AND WE BOTH AGREED DEFINITELY WAS.
[00:08:43] AND THE WORDS TO USE WITH PROBABLY A TERRORIST ATTACK ON
[00:08:47] THE UNITED STATES BE WITHIN A
[00:08:51] RELATIVELY SHORT PERIOD OF TIME.
[00:08:53] AND PEOPLE BEGAN TO GATHER IN MY OFFICE.
[00:08:57] SECRETARY RICE, THEN THE NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER, WAS
[00:09:01] THERE. SCOOTER LIBBY, MY CHIEF OF STAFF, WE PROBABLY HAD 7 OR 8
[00:09:05] PEOPLE IN THE ROOM. AND THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN THE
[00:09:09] DOOR BURST OPEN AND MY LEAD
[00:09:11] SECRET SERVICE AGENT CAME IN AND
[00:09:13] CAME OVER TO THE DESK WHERE I WAS SITTING.
[00:09:16] AND HE SAID, SIR, WE HAVE TO LEAVE IMMEDIATELY.
[00:09:19] YOU KNOW, I'D LIKE TAKE YOU OUT OR PLEASE COME WITH ME.
[00:09:23] HE SAID, WE HAVE TO LEAVE IMMEDIATELY. PUT ONE HAND ON THE BACK OF MY
[00:09:27] BELT AND ONE HAND ON MY SHOULDER AND LITERALLY PROPELLED ME OUT
[00:09:30] OF MY OFFICE. I DIDN'T HAVE THE OPTION OF NOT
[00:09:33] GOING TO GO AND THE THE CAUSE
[00:09:43] FOR THAT. THE REASON HE'D DONE THAT IS HE EXPLAINED TO ME AS HE WAS TAKING
[00:09:47] ME DOWN TO THE PRESIDENTIAL EMERGENCY OPERATIONS CENTER
[00:09:50] UNDER THE WHITE HOUSE WAS THAT IF HE'D RECEIVED A REPORT OVER
[00:09:53] THE SECRET SERVICE RADIO NET
[00:09:57] THAT THERE WAS A HIJACKED
[00:09:59] AIRCRAFT OUT AT DULLES, HEADED TOWARDS CROWN AT 500 MILES AN
[00:10:03] HOUR AROUND BEING THE CODE WORD FOR THE WHITE HOUSE.
[00:10:08] AND THAT TURNED OUT TO BE AMERICAN 77, WHICH, OF COURSE,
[00:10:12] CAME IN AND MADE A CIRCLE AND THEN WENT INTO THE PENTAGON AT
[00:10:16] THAT POINT, I WAS DOWN IN PART WAY TO THE PARK.
[00:10:19] I HADN'T GOTTEN TO THE PARK YET,
[00:10:21] PART WAY TO THE PARK AND I
[00:10:26] IMMEDIATELY USED THE TELEPHONE THAT WAS THERE TO PLACE ANOTHER
[00:10:30] CALL TO THE PRESIDENT, AND THAT WAS OUR SECOND OR THIRD CALL AT
[00:10:32] THAT MORNING.
[00:10:34] AND THE AIR LET HIM KNOW THAT
[00:10:37] WASHINGTON WAS UNDER ATTACK, AS WELL AS NEW YORK.
[00:10:40] AND THE SECRET SERVICE HAD
[00:10:43] STRONGLY RECOMMENDED THAT HE NOT COME BACK.
[00:10:45] I ALSO RECOMMENDED THAT HE NOT
[00:10:47] COME BACK BELIEVING THAT IT WAS VERY IMPORTANT FOR US TO STAY
[00:10:51] APART SO THAT WE DIDN'T BECOME A
[00:10:53] RIPE TARGET AND WE DIDN'T KNOW
[00:10:55] AT THAT STAGE WHAT WAS HAPPENING. HE DIDN'T LIKE TO HEAR THAT.
[00:10:58] HE DIDN'T LIKE THAT AT ALL. FOR UNDERSTANDABLE REASONS, BUT
[00:11:02] HE AGREED TO IT. I THINK HE SAW THE WISDOM OF IT.
[00:11:05] IF YOU ASK WHAT OUR REACTION
[00:11:09] THAT MORNING WAS, THE WAY I WENT FROM THAT SPOT AFTER I TALKED TO
[00:11:12] THE PRESIDENT, WENT INTO THE
[00:11:14] POCKET SELF AND THERE I WAS
[00:11:18] PRESENTED BY NORM MINETA AS OUR
[00:11:21] SECRETARY TRANSPORTATION AND
[00:11:22] RESPONSIBLE FOR A NORM HAD A
[00:11:26] LIST OF SIX AIRCRAFT THAT THEY BELIEVED HAD BEEN HIJACKED AT
[00:11:29] THAT POINT, ACTUALLY HAD FLIGHT NUMBERS ON THEM.
[00:11:33] AND OF COURSE, IT WAS ONLY FOUR. BUT FOR A WHILE WE THOUGHT IT
[00:11:37] WAS SIX.
[00:11:39] AND THERE WERE TWO MAJOR DRIVERS
[00:11:41] IN TERMS OF WHAT I THOUGHT ABOUT THAT MORNING.
[00:11:45] AND AS WE WORKED THROUGH THE THE CRISIS THAT DAY, NUMBER ONE WAS
[00:11:48] WE HAD TO GET ALL THE PLANES DOWN OUT OF THE SKY SO WE COULD
[00:11:52] ISOLATE WHATEVER HAD BEEN HIJACKED AND ACCOUNT FOR ALL THE
[00:11:56] AIRCRAFT, INCLUDING THE LIST WE HAD, THE ONES WE THOUGHT HAD BEEN HIJACKED.
[00:12:00] THAT POINT WOULD ACCOUNT FOR THREE OF THEM, TWO OF THEM IN
[00:12:03] NEW YORK AND ONE AT THE PENTAGON.
[00:12:06] AND SO THAT WAS A MAJOR PART OF THE EFFORT.
[00:12:08] AND THE OTHER THING THAT WAS VERY IMPORTANT THAT I FOCUSED ON
[00:12:12] WAS THE CONTINUITY OF GOVERNMENT.
[00:12:16] SOME OF YOU ARE PROBABLY FAMILIAR WITH OVER THE YEARS,
[00:12:20] ESPECIALLY DURING THE COLD WAR,
[00:12:20] WE HAD DEVELOPED PROGRAMS AND
[00:12:25] PROCEDURES FOR PRESERVING THE
[00:12:29] CONTINUITY OF GOVERNMENT IN THE EVENT OF AN ALL OUT GLOBAL
[00:12:32] CONFLICT WITH THE SOVIET UNION.
[00:12:34] I WAS ALWAYS THE SCENARIO AND
[00:12:36] WE'D ACTUALLY EXERCISE THAT
[00:12:38] SYSTEM ON MANY OCCASIONS, AND IT
[00:12:40] FOCUSED ON HAVING WAYS, TAKING
[00:12:46] STEPS TO ENSURE THAT SOMEBODY IN
[00:12:48] THE LINE OF SUCCESSION SURVIVED WHATEVER KIND OF ATTACK WE WERE UNDER.
[00:12:52] SO THAT WHEN THE DUST SETTLED, WE'D HAVE A PRESIDENT AND A
[00:12:56] GOVERNMENT ABLE TO FUNCTION. AND THAT'S WHAT WE REFERRED TO AS CONTINUITY OF GOVERNMENT.
[00:13:00] THAT DAY.
[00:13:01] IT TOOK THE THE FORM BASICALLY
[00:13:05] OF I ONE WAS TO RECOMMEND THE PRESIDENT AND I NOT MY JOB.
[00:13:09] IT WAS VERY IMPORTANT FOR US TO STAY SEPARATED.
[00:13:13] BUT SECONDLY WAS TO GET HOLD OF DENNY HASTERT.
[00:13:15] OF COURSE, SPEAKER HASTERT. HE WAS OUT AT ANDREWS AIR FORCE
[00:13:19] BASE WHERE HIS SECURITY DETAIL
[00:13:21] HAD RELOCATED HIM AND WE ARRANGED FOR HIM TO BE MOVED
[00:13:25] FROM THERE TO A SECURE,
[00:13:27] UNDISCLOSED LOCATION BECAUSE HE WAS NEXT IN LINE TO THE
[00:13:31] PRESIDENCY. AND IF SOMETHING HAPPENED TO THE PRESIDENT AND ME, THEN DENNY WAS
[00:13:34] IN A POSITION TO BE ABLE TO TAKE OVER AND FUNCTION AS PRESIDENT.
[00:13:38] BUT THOSE WERE THE TWO SORT OF MAJOR CONCERNS THAT OCCUPIED MOST OF OUR TIME.
[00:13:42] ONE WAS, AS I SAY, GETTING ALL THE AIRPLANES DOWN OUT OF THE
[00:13:46] SKY AND THE OTHER WAS GUARANTEEING THAT THERE'D BE SOMEBODY IN THE LINE OF
[00:13:52] SUCCESSION IN A POSITION TO BE ABLE TO TAKE OVER RIGHT. SPEAKING OF THE SECURE
[00:13:57] UNDERSCORE LOCATION, MUCH OF THE TIME WHEN THE MEDIA WAS
[00:14:01] REPORTING THAT YOU WERE IN A SECURE, UNDISCLOSED LOCATION, YOU WERE ACTUALLY AT CAMP DAVID
[00:14:05] AND THAT'S WHERE YOU WENT THE EVENING OF SEPTEMBER 11TH.
[00:14:09] AND I REMEMBER HAVING A CONVERSATION WITH YOU MUCH LATER
[00:14:12] IN WHICH YOU DESCRIBE WHAT THAT
[00:14:15] WAS LIKE BEING AT CAMP DAVID LATE THAT EVENING.
[00:14:19] AND THE WAY YOU DESCRIBED IT TO ME WAS THAT THE FAMILY GATHERED AROUND THE TELEVISION.
[00:14:23] YOU SAT BASICALLY IN SILENCE FOR A COUPLE OF HOURS WATCHING
[00:14:26] RERUNS OF PLANES HITTING THE TOWERS. AND OF THE HORROR THAT DAY.
[00:14:30] WHAT WAS THAT LIKE? HOW LONG DID YOU DO THAT AND
[00:14:34] WHAT WERE YOU THINKING AT THAT POINT?
[00:14:37] IT WAS AFTER THE PRESIDENT HAD
[00:14:41] RETURNED. WE'D DONE THE WITH NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL MEETING, AND HE
[00:14:45] ADDRESSED THE NATION AND WHEN WE FINISHED THAT, THEN LYNNE AND I
[00:14:49] GOT ON THE WHITE TOP HELICOPTER
[00:14:51] ON THE SOUTH LAWN AND WERE FLOWN
[00:14:53] TO CAMP DAVID.
[00:14:57] IT'S THE ONLY TIME I'VE EVER TAKEN OFF A HELICOPTER OFF THE
[00:15:01] SOUTH LAWN WITHOUT BEING WITH THE PRESIDENT. I'VE DONE IT A LOT OVER THE
[00:15:05] YEARS. BUT YOU DON'T FLY OFF THE SOUTH LAWN EXCEPT IN THOSE
[00:15:08] EXTRAORDINARY CIRCUM STANCES.
[00:15:10] AND WHEN WE GOT TO CAMP DAVID,
[00:15:15] THEY TOOK US TO ASPEN LODGE, WHICH IS THE PRESIDENTIAL LODGE
[00:15:19] UP THERE. BUT AGAIN, FOR SECURITY REASONS,
[00:15:22] THE SECRET SERVICE WAS OBVIOUSLY
[00:15:25] TOTALLY FOCUSED ON AND CONCERNED
[00:15:27] ABOUT THE POSSIBILITY FOLLOW ON ATTACKS AND SO FORTH.
[00:15:31] AND ASPEN WAS THE MOST SECURE FACILITY AT CAMP DAVID.
[00:15:35] SO WE SPENT A COUPLE OF DAYS
[00:15:37] THERE AT THAT ASPEN LODGE.
[00:15:41] WE SAT IN THE LIVING ROOM,
[00:15:44] WATCHED THE TELEVISION, AND I WAS ACCOMPANIED BY MY WIFE,
[00:15:47] LYNNE, AND DAUGHTER LIZ, DAUGHTER MARY WAS OUT OF THE
[00:15:51] COUNTRY AND WE MOVED BACK BY THEN.
[00:15:54] BUT I CAN REMEMBER SITTING THERE
[00:15:57] FOCUSED, OBVIOUSLY LIKE I THINK PEOPLE WERE ALL OVER THE COUNTRY
[00:16:02] WATCHING THE TOWERS COME DOWN.
[00:16:04] THE FIRES OF THE PENTAGON AND SO FORTH.
[00:16:07] AND AND BEGAN TO THINK ABOUT
[00:16:10] WHAT WE NEEDED TO DO BY WAY OF
[00:16:14] POLICY, WHAT STEPS WE MIGHT TAKE
[00:16:16] IN ORDER TO DEAL WITH THIS THIS NEW SITUATION.
[00:16:20] AND THE THOUGHTS THAT CAME TO
[00:16:21] MIND WERE THE FIRST AND FOREMOST
[00:16:24] THAT THIS WASN'T JUST A TERRORIST ATTACK.
[00:16:27] WE'D HAD A LOT OF TERRORIST ATTACKS OVER THE YEARS.
[00:16:30] WE TENDED TO TREAT THEM AS LAW ENFORCEMENT PROBLEMS.
[00:16:33] WE'D GO OUT AND FIND THE BAD GUYS, ARREST THEM, PUT THEM ON
[00:16:36] TRIAL, LOCK THEM UP. THIS WAS AN ACT OF WAR.
[00:16:40] WE HAD 3000 DEAD AMERICANS IN A MATTER OF MINUTES THAT MORNING,
[00:16:45] AND WE NEEDED TO TREAT IT AS AN
[00:16:48] ACT OF WAR.
[00:16:49] AND THAT MEANT OBVIOUSLY YOU'D
[00:16:52] MARSHAL ALL THE RESOURCES OF THE
[00:16:54] FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TO BE ABLE TO
[00:16:58] DEAL WITH TO PREVENT A FOLLOW ON
[00:17:00] ATTACK AND TO DEAL WITH THOSE WHO WERE RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT
[00:17:03] HAD HAPPENED. WE HAD A PRETTY GOOD IDEA THE
[00:17:06] AFTERNOON OF THE ATTACK THAT
[00:17:08] THIS WAS AL QAEDA RELATED.
[00:17:12] THAT WAS THE ADVICE WE WERE GETTING FROM THE INTELLIGENCE
[00:17:16] COMMUNITY. SO IT WASN'T A BIG MYSTERY ABOUT
[00:17:19] WHO WAS BEHIND IT BY THEN.
[00:17:22] PRETTY WELL FOCUSED IN ON OSAMA BIN LADEN.
[00:17:26] BUT THERE WAS A LOT WE DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT AL QAEDA.
[00:17:30] NOW, YOU KNOW, WE'VE HEARD SO MUCH ABOUT IT FOR TEN YEARS.
[00:17:33] THERE'S A BIT OF AN TEMPTATION TO SORT OF THINK WE KNOW
[00:17:37] EVERYTHING THERE IS TO KNOW ABOUT AL QAEDA.
[00:17:38] BUT THE THE DAY OF THE ATTACK,
[00:17:41] THIS WAS A GROUP OF TERRORIST.
[00:17:45] BUT THERE WAS SAY THERE WERE A LOT OF KEY QUESTIONS THAT THAT
[00:17:47] WE COULDN'T ANSWER. RIGHT. WE DIDN'T KNOW HOW BIG THEY WERE.
[00:17:51] WE DIDN'T KNOW WHO WAS FINANCING THEM. WE DIDN'T KNOW WHERE ALL THEY WERE OPERATING.
[00:17:55] THERE WAS A LOT WE NEEDED TO LEARN.
[00:17:57] AND THAT PARTLY DROVE OUR OUR
[00:18:00] SEARCH FOR INTELLIGENCE THAT GENERATED SOME OF THE THE
[00:18:04] POLICIES THAT WE PUT IN PLACE.
[00:18:07] AND BUT I SAT, AS I RECALL, AND
[00:18:10] MADE A SERIES OF NOTES ON A LEGAL TABLET THAT NIGHT AS I
[00:18:13] THOUGHT ABOUT WHAT WE WERE FACED WITH AND HOW WE MIGHT BEGIN TO
[00:18:17] DEAL WITH IT. AND I SORT OF CHEWED OVER IN MY
[00:18:21] OWN MIND WHAT WE NEEDED TO BE DOING.
[00:18:23] ULTIMATELY, WE ALL MET UP AT CAMP DAVID AND ALL OF US, THE
[00:18:27] NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL THAT WEEKEND.
[00:18:29] THE ATTACK, I GUESS, WAS ON TUESDAY.
[00:18:32] AND THAT BY FRIDAY NIGHT WE
[00:18:35] PRETTY WELL GATHERED UP AT CAMP
[00:18:38] DAVID, SPENT SATURDAY AND SUNDAY
[00:18:40] UP THERE WITH THE PRESIDENT AND
[00:18:43] CO AND PULLED TOGETHER WHAT
[00:18:46] ULTIMATELY EMERGED AS OUR STRATEGY FOR THE GLOBAL WAR ON
[00:18:51] TERROR IN THE DAYS AFTER THE
[00:18:54] ATTACKS, WE SAW VARIOUS PUBLIC
[00:18:57] OFFICIALS IN VERY PUBLIC DISPLAYS OF EMOTION.
[00:19:00] WE SAW PRESIDENT BUSH ALMOST COME TO TEARS IN THE OVERALL
[00:19:04] OVAL OFFICE. WE SAW HEARD ABOUT CONDOLEEZZA RICE GOING BACK TO THE WATERGATE
[00:19:09] AND BREAKING DOWN AT ONE POINT BECAUSE OF THE EMOTIONAL TOLL
[00:19:13] THAT THIS WAS TAKING. ON A PERSONAL NOTE, I REMEMBER COMING BACK FROM NEW YORK,
[00:19:17] DRIVING ACROSS THE ROOSEVELT
[00:19:19] BRIDGE, HEARING MARTIN SEXTON'S VERSION OF AMERICA THE BEAUTIFUL
[00:19:23] AND I BROKE DOWN CRYING. DID YOU EVER HAVE A MOMENT LIKE THAT?
[00:19:29] NOT REALLY.
[00:19:36] I. HOPE YOU UNDERSTAND THAT PEOPLE
[00:19:38] WILL FIND THAT VERY PECULIAR.
[00:19:42] YEAH, WELL, MY WIFE AND DAUGHTER
[00:19:44] WERE WITH ME ON THAT EVENING.
[00:19:47] LINDA WAS WITH ME ALL DAY, AND
[00:19:49] THEY SHE'D BEEN DOWNTOWN THAT
[00:19:51] MORNING WHEN THE ATTACK STARTED. AND THE SECRET SERVICE HAD
[00:19:55] BROUGHT HER OVER TO THE THE WEST WING. AND THEN SHE REALLY SAT BESIDE
[00:20:00] ME THROUGHOUT THE DAY AND SAID
[00:20:03] SHE'D PROBABLY BE THE BEST PERSON TO COMMENT ON WHAT MY MY
[00:20:06] MENTAL ATTITUDE WAS. I WAS FOCUSED VERY MUCH ON WHAT
[00:20:10] WE HAD TO DO. I WAS THINKING OF IT IN TERMS OF
[00:20:13] WHAT THIS MEANT, WITH RESPECT TO THE POLICY AND OUR MILITARY
[00:20:17] FORCES AND WHAT THE TARGETS WERE OUT THERE.
[00:20:20] WE MIGHT GO AFTER HOW WE MIGHT GO AFTER THEM AND SO FORTH, WHAT
[00:20:23] KIND OF INTELLIGENCE WE WERE GOING TO NEED IN ORDER TO BE ABLE TO COPE WITH THIS NEW
[00:20:27] THREAT. BUT THAT'S WHAT I RECALL WAS,
[00:20:29] WASN'T THAT IT WASN'T A DEEPLY
[00:20:33] MOVING EVENT? IT CLEARLY WAS. BUT THE OTHER THING THAT THAT
[00:20:39] INFLUENCE FROM A PERSONAL STANDPOINT WAS THAT I HAD SPENT
[00:20:43] A GOOD DEAL OF TIME OVER THE YEARS ON THE CONTINUING ISSUE OF GOVERNMENT PROGRAM.
[00:20:46] AND I'D BEEN THROUGH EXERCISES
[00:20:49] WHERE THE NATURE OF THE ATTACK
[00:20:52] ON THE U.S. WAS FAR IN EXCESS OF
[00:20:56] WHAT WE ACTUALLY FACED ON 911.
[00:20:58] AND THEN HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS, MAYBE EVEN MILLIONS OF PEOPLE
[00:21:02] KILLED. SO I HAD THE BENEFIT OF HAVING
[00:21:04] GONE THROUGH THOSE EXERCISES
[00:21:08] OVER THE YEARS AND HAD TRAINING JUST SORT OF KICKED IN IN TERMS
[00:21:11] OF THINKING ABOUT WHAT WE HAD TO DO, THAT MORNING AND THE NEXT
[00:21:15] DAY. RIGHT. LET'S GET TO THOSE POLICIES SPECIFICALLY.
[00:21:20] LET'S TALK ABOUT THE TWO THAT EVERYBODY I THINK THINKS OF AS
[00:21:23] THE MOST CONTROVERSIAL OF THE TERRORIST SURVEILLANCE PROGRAM. ON THE ONE HAND, AND ENHANCED
[00:21:28] INTERROGATIONS ON THE OTHER.
[00:21:30] CAN YOU DESCRIBE I THINK THERE'S
[00:21:33] A GENERAL SENSE AMONG THE PUBLIC THAT YOU SORT OF BRAINSTORMED
[00:21:37] THESE IDEAS. YOU CAME UP WITH THEM. THEY WERE YOUR IDEAS.
[00:21:41] YOU'VE BEEN THE MOST FIERCE
[00:21:43] PUBLIC ADVOCATE OF THEM.
[00:21:45] CAN YOU DESCRIBE HOW THE TERRORIST SURVEILLANCE PROGRAM
[00:21:50] CAME TO BE? SURE.
[00:21:51] WELL, IT'S IMPORTANT TO KEEP IN
[00:21:54] MIND THEY THEY.
[00:21:58] THEY WERE INITIATED AT DIFFERENT TIMES. THE TERRORIST SURVEILLANCE
[00:22:02] PROGRAM IS SOMETHING WE MOVED TO
[00:22:04] WITHIN DAYS OF OUR TIME WITH
[00:22:08] AFTER 911. THE ENHANCED INTERROGATION
[00:22:12] TECHNIQUES REALLY CAME IN A YEAR OR TWO LATER WHEN WE WERE IN THE BUSINESS.
[00:22:16] BY THEN OF CAPTURING PEOPLE LIKE KHALID SHEIKH MOHAMMED, WHO WE
[00:22:19] BELIEVE WE CAUGHT HIM IN THE
[00:22:20] SPRING OF OVER THREE, AND IT WAS
[00:22:23] THE CAPTURE OF CERTAIN KINDS OF
[00:22:25] INDIVIDUALS THAT LED US TO THE POINT WHERE WE NEEDED ENHANCED
[00:22:30] INTERROGATION. BUT COMING BACK TO YOUR BASIC QUESTION ON THE TERRORIST
[00:22:32] SURVEILLANCE PROGRAM, THE ORIGIN
[00:22:38] OF THE PROGRAM CAME REALLY FROM
[00:22:42] MY MIKE HAYDEN AND HIS PEOPLE AT THE NATIONAL SECURITY AGENCY.
[00:22:45] AND AND GEORGE TENET WAS INVOLVED AS WELL, TOO.
[00:22:49] THERE HAD BEEN A CONVERSATION BETWEEN THE TWO OF THEM.
[00:22:53] THIS IS WITHIN A COUPLE OF DAYS
[00:22:55] OF OF 911, AS I RECALL, THE TWO
[00:22:58] OF THEM HAD TALKED AND GEORGE MENTIONED IT TO ME.
[00:23:02] A BASIC QUESTION BEING, ARE
[00:23:04] THERE ADDITIONAL THINGS THAT WE CAN DO WITH OUR OUR SIGINT
[00:23:10] CAPABILITIES, OUR CAPACITY TO TO
[00:23:12] READ THE MAIL.
[00:23:16] THAT WOULD HELP US DEAL WITH THE SITUATION.
[00:23:19] WE THEN FACED. THAT LED TO A MEETING IN MY
[00:23:23] OFFICE, AS I RECALL, WHERE MIKE
[00:23:25] CAME IN, THEN GENERAL HAYDEN,
[00:23:28] THEN THE HEAD OF NSA, LATER HEAD
[00:23:29] OF THE CIA, AND AND GEORGE TENET
[00:23:34] AND THE THREE OF US TALKED AND
[00:23:36] THERE WERE THINGS THAT THE NSA
[00:23:40] THOUGHT THEY COULD DO IF THEY HAD ADDITIONAL AUTHORITY.
[00:23:44] AND I TOOK THAT PACKAGE OF THAT
[00:23:49] PROPOSAL BASICALLY, AND WENT TO SEE THE PRESIDENT AND SAT DOWN
[00:23:53] AND WENT THROUGH IT WITH HIM. AND HE SIGNED UP TO IT.
[00:23:57] BUT WITH THE CAVEAT THAT HE WANTED IT VERY, VERY CAREFULLY MANAGED.
[00:24:01] HE WANTED TO MAKE CERTAIN THAT HE PERSONALLY APPROVED IT EACH
[00:24:05] STEP OF THE WAY AND THAT THEY
[00:24:07] HAD TO COME BACK IN FOR APPROVAL ON A REGULAR BASIS.
[00:24:11] WHAT EMERGED OUT OF THAT WAS A
[00:24:13] SIGNIFICANTLY ENHANCED CAPACITY
[00:24:16] FOR US TO BE ABLE TO INTERCEPT.
[00:24:22] COMMUNICATIONS ORIGINATING OUTSIDE THE UNITED STATES,
[00:24:26] POSSIBLY FROM WHAT WE'VE REFERRED TO AS A DIRTY NUMBER.
[00:24:28] YOU CAPTURE AL QAEDA TYPE.
[00:24:31] HE'S GOT A COMPUTER, A ROLODEX
[00:24:34] OR WHATEVER IT IS, AND HE'S GOT HIS GROUP OF PHONE NUMBERS ON.
[00:24:37] AND AND YOU WANTED TO KNOW WHO HE WAS TALKING TO IN THE UNITED
[00:24:41] STATES, FOR EXAMPLE.
[00:24:42] AND THE SAFEGUARDS THAT WE BUILT
[00:24:45] INTO THAT AT THE DIRECTION OF
[00:24:47] THE PRESIDENT INVOLVED.
[00:24:51] THE FACT THAT EVERY I THINK IT WAS EVERY 30 OR 45 DAYS, IT
[00:24:56] EXCUSE ME, VARIED FROM TIME TO TIME.
[00:24:59] THE LIKE THE SECRETARY OF
[00:25:00] DEFENSE, THE DIRECTOR OF THE CIA
[00:25:04] AND NSA ALL HAD TO SIGN OFF ON
[00:25:08] CONTINUING THE PROGRAM. IT DIDN'T GET RENEWED
[00:25:12] AUTOMATICALLY. THEY ALL HAD TO SAY IN WRITING TO THE PRESIDENT THAT THEY
[00:25:14] THOUGHT WE SHOULD CONTINUE THE PROGRAM FROM THE STANDPOINT OF
[00:25:18] THE NATION'S SECURITY, ETC..
[00:25:22] THE ATTORNEY GENERAL HAD TO SIGN
[00:25:25] OFF ON ALL OF THAT, THEN WENT TO THE PRESIDENT, DAVE ADDINGTON,
[00:25:29] WHO WORKED FOR ME, WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR CARRYING IT
[00:25:31] AROUND AND HE'D GET ALL THE SIGNATURES. AND THE PRESIDENT, ONCE HE WAS I
[00:25:35] HAD RECEIVED THIS INPUT FROM HIS
[00:25:37] SENIOR ADVISERS.
[00:25:40] THEN HE WOULD SIGN UP FOR IT AND
[00:25:42] EXTEND THE PROGRAM FOR ANOTHER 30 OR 45 DAYS.
[00:25:45] AND THAT'S THE WAY WE OPERATED IT FOR YEARS.
[00:25:49] I BRIEFED THE KEY MEMBERS OF
[00:25:53] CONGRESS. I HAD THE CHAIRMAN AND RANKING MEMBER OF THE HOUSE AND SENATE
[00:25:57] INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEES COME DOWN EVERY COUPLE OF MONTHS TO
[00:25:59] MY OFFICE AND MIKE HAYDEN WOULD
[00:26:03] COME IN AND GEORGE USUALLY TENET
[00:26:05] AND WE'D BRIEF THE THE KEY FOR
[00:26:09] MEMBERS OF CONGRESS WHO HAD JURISDICTION IN THIS AREA OVER
[00:26:13] WHAT WE WERE DOING AND WHAT KIND
[00:26:15] OF RESULTS IT WAS PRODUCING. SO THEY WERE WIRED.
[00:26:17] AND FROM THE BEGINNING, LATER ON, WHEN SOME CONTROVERSY AROSE
[00:26:22] INSIDE THE PROGRAM AND WITH THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT, WE EXPANDED
[00:26:27] THAT GROUP OF FOUR AND NINE. WE HAD THE SPEAKER, MAJORITY AND
[00:26:31] MINORITY LEADERS OF THE HOUSE AND SENATE AND HAD ALL OF THEM
[00:26:35] IN BRIEF FOR THEM AS WELL. AND THEN I WENT AROUND AT THAT
[00:26:39] POINT AND ASKED THEM ALL. AT THAT POINT, NANCY PELOSI WAS
[00:26:43] IN THE GROUP. JAY ROCKEFELLER ARE ON THE
[00:26:46] DEMOCRATIC SIDE, ASKED THEM IF
[00:26:50] THEY THOUGHT WE SHOULD CONTINUE THE PROGRAM. THEY SAID ABSOLUTELY.
[00:26:53] THEN I SAID, DO YOU THINK WE OUGHT TO GO BACK TO THE CONGRESS
[00:26:57] AND GET ADDITIONAL LEGISLATIVE AUTHORITY TO CONTINUE TO OPERATE
[00:27:00] THE WAY WE OPERATED? AND THEY SAID ABSOLUTELY NOT.
[00:27:04] AND THEY WERE UNANIMOUS ON BOTH POINTS. THEY WERE CONCERNED THAT IF WE
[00:27:06] WENT UP AND ASKED CONGRESS FOR A
[00:27:10] VOTE ON THE SUBJECT, THAT THE
[00:27:14] FACT THAT WE WERE DOING IT WOULD LEAK AND WE'D IN EFFECT, BE
[00:27:16] TELLING THE ENEMY HOW WE WERE READING THEIR MAIL.
[00:27:21] SO IT WAS WAS WELL NOTICED, NOTIFIED TO THE CONGRESS.
[00:27:24] THERE WAS SOME CONTROVERSY LATER
[00:27:28] ON, BUT INTERNALLY THAT THE PRESIDENT DEALT WITH.
[00:27:31] BUT IT WAS, I'M CONVINCED, A KEY
[00:27:34] PART OF OUR SUCCESS IN TERMS OF
[00:27:37] PREVENTING FURTHER ATTACKS AGAINST THE UNITED STATES. I THINK WE SAVED THOUSANDS OF
[00:27:40] LIVES BY WHAT WE WERE DOING. I THINK IT'S ONE OF THE GREAT
[00:27:44] SUCCESS STORIES, ESPECIALLY WITH
[00:27:46] RESPECT TO NSA, HOW THEY PUT THE
[00:27:50] PROGRAM TOGETHER, DEVELOP THE CAPABILITY.
[00:27:53] NOW, ONE OF THE GREAT SUCCESS STORIES OF AMERICAN INTELLIGENCE, AND MAYBE SOMEDAY
[00:27:57] IT'LL ALL BE TOLD YOU'VE MADE THE SAME ARGUMENT ABOUT ENHANCED INTERROGATIONS.
[00:28:01] YOU'RE A STRONG BELIEVER THAT THE POLICIES, QUOTE UNQUOTE, WORKED.
[00:28:06] LET'S GO BEYOND THAT PART OF THE
[00:28:08] DEBATE AND TALK ABOUT THE EFFECTS OF ENHANCED
[00:28:12] INTERROGATIONS AND THE PERCEPTIONS AROUND THE WORLD
[00:28:16] THAT IT IS TORTURE, THAT THE THINGS THAT WE DID AMOUNTED TO
[00:28:22] TORTURE AND THE SENSE THAT MAYBE
[00:28:25] THE MORAL POSITION OF THE UNITED STATES WAS ERODED BECAUSE OF THE
[00:28:29] THINGS THAT WE DID HERE IN THIS COUNTRY.
[00:28:33] HOW DO YOU RESPOND TO THOSE ARGUMENTS? IS THAT A QUESTION OR FOR THE
[00:28:37] INVITATION TO ARGUE THE.
[00:28:40] I'VE ALWAYS OFFER YOU AN INVITATION TO ARGUE NO, THOSE
[00:28:43] ARE THOSE ARE I MEAN, I THINK THERE ARE CRAZY. THERE ARE THERE ARE SORT OF
[00:28:47] CRAZY CRITIQUES AND THEN THERE ARE MORE THOUGHTFUL CRITIQUES. AND I THINK THAT'S A MORE THOUGHTFUL CRITIQUE.
[00:28:51] DO YOU? I DO NOT.
[00:28:55] I AM PERSUADED THAT THE WAY WE
[00:29:01] WENT ABOUT SEEKING THE AUTHORITY
[00:29:05] TO BE ABLE TO EXTRACT MORE
[00:29:08] INTELLIGENCE FROM A HANDFUL OF INDIVIDUALS, WE'RE TALKING HERE
[00:29:11] NOT ABOUT YOUR RANK AND FILE
[00:29:14] ENEMY TROOP OR SOLDIER.
[00:29:16] THIS DOES NOT INVOLVE THE MILITARY.
[00:29:18] THIS DOES NOT INVOLVE THE DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE. THIS IS A PROGRAM THAT WAS
[00:29:24] AUTHORIZED BY THE PRESIDENT, SIGNED UP TO BY THE NATIONAL
[00:29:27] SECURITY COUNCIL, CARRIED OUT
[00:29:30] WITH ALL KINDS EXCUSE ME, OF
[00:29:34] SAFEGUARDS BY THE CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY.
[00:29:36] WE HAD A CASE EXCUSE ME, WHERE
[00:29:40] WE HAD A HANDFUL OF INDIVIDU
[00:29:43] REBELS WHO CLEARLY HAD NO
[00:29:45] KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT WAS IN THE
[00:29:47] WORKS FROM THE STANDPOINT OF AL
[00:29:50] QAEDA AND WHAT THEY HOPE TO BE ABLE TO DO, HOW THEY FUNCTIONED,
[00:29:54] WHO THE KEY MEMBERS WERE, WHAT THEIR PLANS WERE. IT WAS PEOPLE LIKE KHALID SHEIKH
[00:29:57] MOHAMMED ABU ZUBAYDAH, A MAN
[00:30:00] NAMED ALI NASHIRI.
[00:30:03] THE NOTION THAT SOMEHOW THE
[00:30:05] UNITED STATES WAS WILDLY
[00:30:09] TORTURING ANYBODY IS NOT TRUE. AND ANYBODY WHO TAKES THE TIME
[00:30:12] TO LOOK AT THE PROGRAM, I THINK
[00:30:15] WILL WILL COME TO THE SAME CONCLUSION.
[00:30:19] OBVIOUSLY, THERE ARE PEOPLE OUT THERE WHO DIFFER WITH RESPECT TO
[00:30:21] THAT PERSPECTIVE. BUT WHEN WE GET INTO THE WHOLE
[00:30:25] AREA, ONE OF THE MOST CONTROVERSIAL TECHNIQUES IS WATERBOARDING.
[00:30:28] I THINK THERE'S A PROTESTER OUT FRONT THIS MORNING WHEN I DROVE
[00:30:32] IN COMMENTING ON WATERBOARDING,
[00:30:36] THREE PEOPLE WERE WATERBOARDED, NOT DOZENS, NOT THREE.
[00:30:41] AND ONE WHO WAS SUBJECTED MOST
[00:30:44] OFTEN TO THAT WAS KHALID SHEIKH MOHAMMED.
[00:30:46] AND IT PRODUCED PHENOMENAL RESULTS FOR US.
[00:30:50] THERE ARE REPORTS THAT THE INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY DID OF
[00:30:54] THE RESULTS OF THE PROGRAM, WHICH WERE DECLASSIFIED AT MY
[00:30:58] REQUEST AND ARE NOW AVAILABLE ON THE INTERNET, THAT TALK ABOUT
[00:31:02] THE QUALITY OF INFORMATION THAT WE GOT AS A RESULT OF OUR
[00:31:06] ENHANCED INTERROGATION TECHNIQUES APPLIED TO A HANDFUL
[00:31:08] OF INDIVIDUALS. WE WERE TALKING ABOUT ONLY A
[00:31:12] HANDFUL OF PEOPLE WHO WERE
[00:31:16] INDEED A PART OF THE AL QAIDA
[00:31:19] ORGANIZATION AND KHALID SHEIKH MOHAMMED WAS NOT ONLY THE MAN
[00:31:23] WHO WE THEN HAD REASON TO BELIEVE CORRECTLY, HE HAD
[00:31:27] BEHEADED DANIEL PEARL, A REPORTER FOR THE WALL STREET
[00:31:31] JOURNAL, BUT ALSO HAD CLAIMED
[00:31:33] CREDIT FOR THE BEING THE
[00:31:36] ARCHITECT OF 911, KILLED 3000
[00:31:37] AMERICANS THAT MORNING.
[00:31:41] ANOTHER KEY POINT THAT NEEDED TO
[00:31:43] BE MADE WAS THAT THE TECHNIQUES
[00:31:48] THAT WERE USED WERE ALL
[00:31:51] PREVIOUSLY USED ON AMERICAN
[00:31:53] MILITARY PERSONNEL. NOT ALL OF THEM, BUT ALL OF THEM
[00:31:57] HAD BEEN USED IN TRAINING FOR A
[00:32:00] LOT OF OUR OWN SPECIALIST IN IN
[00:32:05] THE MILITARY AREA. SO THERE WASN'T ANY TECHNIQUE
[00:32:08] THAT WE USED ON ANY AL QAIDA INDIVIDUAL THAT HADN'T BEEN USED
[00:32:12] ON OUR OWN TROOPS.
[00:32:14] FIRST, JUST TO GIVE YOU SOME
[00:32:17] IDEA WHETHER OR NOT WE WERE, QUOTE, TORTURING THE PEOPLE WE
[00:32:22] CAPTURED, THE WAY THE PROGRAM
[00:32:24] WORKED WAS THE THE AGENCY CAME
[00:32:28] IN PRIMARILY GEORGE TENET AND
[00:32:31] STILL DIRECTOR OF THE CIA CAME IN. HE TALKED TO ME, TALKED TO A
[00:32:35] COUPLE OF OTHER PEOPLE.
[00:32:38] BASICALLY, HE WANTED TO KNOW HOW
[00:32:41] FAR THEY COULD GO IN TERMS OF
[00:32:45] INTERROGATIONS OF THESE INDIVIDUALS THAT WE CAPTURED AND
[00:32:50] THE. TWO YOU REALLY NEEDED TO KIND OF SIGN OFFS.
[00:32:54] ONE WAS A SIGN OFF FROM THE PRESIDENT. AND SECONDLY, WAS THE RULING
[00:32:58] FROM THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT AS
[00:33:00] TO WHERE THAT LINE WAS THAT YOU COULDN'T CROSS.
[00:33:04] AND WE SOUGHT AND OBTAINED BOTH
[00:33:06] OF THOSE PRESENT, SIGNED UP TO
[00:33:09] IT, AS DID THE OTHER MEMBERS OF THE NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL.
[00:33:13] SOME OF MY COLLEAGUES MAY HAVE FORGOTTEN THAT, BUT IN FACT,
[00:33:18] EVERYBODY WHO WAS A MEMBER OF THE NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL
[00:33:22] WAS INFORMED ABOUT THE ESSENCE
[00:33:24] OF THE PROGRAM AND AND SIGNED UP
[00:33:29] TO IT. SO YOU HAD THE PROPER GOVERNMENTAL AUTHORITIES
[00:33:33] AGREEING THAT THIS WAS NECESSARY AND WORTHWHILE.
[00:33:36] WE HAD THE KEY PEOPLE OVER IN THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT, PEOPLE
[00:33:40] LIKE JOHN YOO, WHO HAS BEEN
[00:33:43] SEVERELY HARASSED BECAUSE OF THE.
[00:33:47] FACT THE THE LEGAL OPINION HE AND OTHERS ISSUED.
[00:33:51] BUT THEY WERE LEGITIMATE LEGAL OPINIONS FROM THE JUSTICE
[00:33:54] DEPARTMENT SAID THIS IS OKAY AND APPROPRIATE.
[00:33:57] THIS ISN'T GAVE US A VERY CLEAR
[00:33:59] GUIDANCE THAT WE COULD FOLLOW.
[00:34:01] AND THE FOLKS OUT AT THE AGENCY INSISTED ON THAT KIND OF
[00:34:07] GUIDANCE BEFORE THEY WERE WILLING TO GO FORWARD.
[00:34:09] NOW THEY ONE OF THE THINGS THAT
[00:34:12] I FOUND MOST OBJECTIONABLE WITH
[00:34:15] RESPECT TO THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION WHEN THEY CAME IN
[00:34:18] WAS THE INITIAL DECISION BY THE
[00:34:22] PRESIDENT AND ATTORNEY GENERAL HOLDER THAT THEY WERE GOING TO
[00:34:25] INVESTIGATE AND PROCESS SUED THE PEOPLE IN THE INTELLIGENCE
[00:34:29] COMMUNITY WHO HAD CARRIED OUT
[00:34:33] THIS INTERROGATION PROGRAM AT OUR DIRECTION.
[00:34:36] AND I HOPE THAT IS A TERRIBLE
[00:34:38] PRECEDENT TO SET. YOU'VE GOT THE UNITED STATES HAS SIGNED UP TO IT.
[00:34:42] HE'S THE LEGITIMATE AUTHORITY IN THIS CASE.
[00:34:45] THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT HAS SIGNED UP TO IT. THESE GUYS HAVE GONE OUT AT OUR
[00:34:50] DIRECTION. AND AND USED THIS AUTHORITY TO
[00:34:53] COLLECT INTELLIGENCE AND SAID
[00:34:55] THAT WE BADLY NEEDED I HAVE.
[00:34:57] AND THE NEXT THING YOU KNOW, YOU
[00:34:59] GET A CHANGE IN ADMINISTRATIONS AND THE NEW CROWD COME IN AND
[00:35:02] SAYS, WE'RE GOING TO GO PROSECUTE THOSE GUYS WHO WERE
[00:35:06] RESPONSE FOR CARRYING OUT THOSE POLICIES.
[00:35:08] I WELL, I CAME HERE TO AEI AT ONE POINT ABOUT TWO YEARS AGO,
[00:35:13] AND AND SPOKE ON THE SUBJECT.
[00:35:16] I WILL SAY THE ADMINISTRATION
[00:35:18] APPEARS TO HAVE REVERSED COURSE.
[00:35:20] ALL OF THOSE ACTIVITIES WERE
[00:35:23] INVESTIGATED BY CAREER LAWYERS
[00:35:26] IN THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT AT THE TAIL END OF THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION.
[00:35:29] THEY HAD ALL BEEN LOOKED AT BEFORE TO MAKE SURE IT WAS
[00:35:33] COPACETIC AND THE OBAMA
[00:35:37] ADMINISTRATION DID. FINALLY, AND I THINK I HOPE THE
[00:35:39] MATTER IS NOW RESOLVED, BACK OFF
[00:35:43] AND THOSE PEOPLE THAT FRANKLY, I
[00:35:46] THINK DIDN'T DESERVE TO BE PROSECUTED AND THAT THEY
[00:35:48] DESERVED TO BE DECORATED FOR THE WORK THEY DID FOR US, IT SAVED
[00:35:54] AGAIN, MANY, MANY LIVES. LET'S JUMP FORWARD TO THAT SPEECH, WHICH, AS YOU SAY, WAS
[00:35:57] MAY OF 2009 HERE AT AEI. AND IT WAS IN PART A CRITIQUE OF
[00:36:01] THE ADMINISTRATION'S DECISIONS ON THOSE THINGS THAT YOU MENTIONED.
[00:36:05] BUT IT WAS ALSO, AT LEAST THE WAY I HEARD IT, A WARNING BY A
[00:36:09] BY STEPPING BACK FROM THE KINDS
[00:36:12] OF THINGS THAT YOUR ADMINISTRATION HAD DONE, YOU
[00:36:15] WERE, IN EFFECT SAYING, WE'RE PUTTING WE'RE CHOOSING TO PUT
[00:36:19] OURSELVES AT GREATER RISK AND YET HERE WE ARE.
[00:36:24] SOME TWO AND A HALF YEARS LATER,
[00:36:26] WE HAD, OF COURSE, THE ATTACK AT FORT HOOD.
[00:36:30] BUT IN SPITE OF ALL OF THE THINGS THAT YOU WARNED AGAINST,
[00:36:34] WE HAVEN'T BEEN ATTACKED AGAIN,
[00:36:38] OSAMA BIN LADEN'S BEEN KILLED. A TRACKMAN APPARENTLY HAS BEEN
[00:36:42] TAKEN OUT. YOU'VE HAD A SERIES OF SUCCESSES
[00:36:45] ON AL QAIDA CENTRAL IN AFGHANISTAN AND PAKISTAN HAS BY
[00:36:49] I THINK MOST ACCOUNTS, BEEN DECIMATED OR PRETTY THOROUGHLY
[00:36:54] TAKEN APART. WERE YOU WRONG WHEN YOU MADE
[00:36:57] THOSE WARNINGS IN MAY OF 2009?
[00:37:01] I DON'T THINK SO, STEVE.
[00:37:02] I WOULD ARGUE THAT THE THE
[00:37:08] POLICIES WE PUT IN PLACE BACK IN THOSE DAYS THAT WERE AVAILABLE
[00:37:11] TO US AND WERE UTILIZED OVER
[00:37:15] TIME AND I'VE SEEN SOME COMMENT
[00:37:17] TO THIS EFFECT FROM FROM CURRENT
[00:37:20] OFFICIALS OF THE OF THE
[00:37:22] GOVERNMENT HELPED PRODUCE FOR
[00:37:26] EXAMPLE, THE INTELLIGENCE THAT ALLOWED US TO GET OSAMA BIN
[00:37:28] LADEN THAT WAS OUT OF THE
[00:37:32] ENHANCED INTERROGATION TECHNIQUES THAT SOME OF THE LEADS CAME THAT ULTIMATELY
[00:37:36] PRODUCED THE RESULT. WHEN PRESIDENT OBAMA WAS ABLE TO
[00:37:40] SEND IN SEAL TEAM SIX TO THE KILL BIN LADEN.
[00:37:42] SO I THINK IT'S BEEN A CONTENT
[00:37:47] UUM, IF YOU WILL, BETWEEN ADMINISTRATIONS FOCUSED,
[00:37:50] ESPECIALLY IN THE PART OF THE
[00:37:52] CAREER FOLKS IN THE INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY AND IN THE SPECIAL OPS
[00:37:56] COMMUNITY, IN THE MILITARY THAT HAVE WORKED AT OVER TIME.
[00:38:00] IT WASN'T JUST THAT THE THE NEW
[00:38:04] ADMINISTRATION CAME IN AND GEE, ALL OF A SUDDEN WE GOT BIN LADEN.
[00:38:06] THEY HAD THE BENEFIT OF ALL THE WORK THAT HAD BEEN DONE. SURE. BUT AT THE SAME TIME, THE
[00:38:10] TERRORIST SURVEILLANCE PROGRAM ISN'T OPERATING AS IT WAS ORIGINALLY CONCEIVED.
[00:38:13] THERE ARE NO MORE ENHANCEMENTS, DEROGATIONS WE'RE BROADCASTING
[00:38:17] TO AL QAEDA AND OTHERS. EXACTLY HOW WE WILL INTERROGATE THEM.
[00:38:20] WE READ MIRANDA WARNINGS TO UMAR FAROUK ABDULMUTALLAB.
[00:38:24] ALL OF THESE THINGS THAT THAT YOU AND OTHERS HAVE WARNED AGAINST AND YET HERE WE ARE.
[00:38:28] WE HAVEN'T BEEN ATTACKED AGAIN.
[00:38:30] WE'VE HAD THESE MAJOR SUCCESSES. AND, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU WHEN THE
[00:38:34] BUSH ADMINISTRATION CAME TO AN END, I REMEMBER YOU MAKING THE ARGUMENT THAT YOU SHOULD BE
[00:38:38] JUDGED BY THE FACT, AT LEAST IN LARGE PART, THAT THAT WE HADN'T
[00:38:41] BEEN ATTACKED AGAIN, THAT THAT WAS A SIGN OF SUCCESS. WHY CAN'T WE USE THAT SAME
[00:38:45] STANDARD FOR THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION AND SAY THAT THE
[00:38:47] THINGS THAT THEY'RE DOING HAVE BEEN SUCCESSFUL?
[00:38:49] WELL, I GUESS I'D MAKE THE CASE
[00:38:51] THAT THEY'VE BEEN SUCCESSFUL IN
[00:38:54] PART BECAUSE OF THE CAPABILITIES
[00:38:56] WE LEFT THEM WITH THE INTELLIGENCE. WE LEFT THEM WITH, BECAUSE OF
[00:39:00] WHAT WE LEARNED FROM MEN LIKE KHALID SHEIKH MOHAMMED BACK WHEN
[00:39:02] HE WAS SUBJECTED. I THINK IT'S A MISTAKE, FOR
[00:39:06] EXAMPLE, NOT TO HAVE AN ENHANCED INTERROGATION PROGRAM AVAILABLE
[00:39:11] NOW, THE PRESIDENT, WHEN HE CANCELED OUR ENHANCED
[00:39:14] INTERROGATION PROGRAM, SAID THEY WERE GOING TO SET UP THEIR OWN
[00:39:18] FOR HIGH VALUE DETAINEES. BUT AS BEST I CAN TELL, I DON'T
[00:39:22] THINK THEY EVER HAVE. I DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY WOULD DO TODAY IF THEY CAPTURED THE
[00:39:26] EQUIVALENT OF KHALID SHEIKH MOHAMMED, PROBABLY READ HIM HIS
[00:39:30] MIRANDA RIGHTS. I DON'T KNOW.
[00:39:32] THAT'S NOT IN MY MIND.
[00:39:34] IT'S A MISTAKE FOR US TO GIVE UP THOSE CAPABILITIES.
[00:39:38] I HOPE THAT THERE ARE NO MORE ATTACKS.
[00:39:42] BUT EVEN AS WE MEET HERE TODAY, EVERYBODY DROVE TO WORK WITH
[00:39:45] THEIR CAR RADIO ON THIS MORNING, HEARD THAT THERE'S, YOU KNOW, A
[00:39:49] THREAT THAT'S OF SUFFICIENT CREDIBILITY, AT LEAST AT THIS
[00:39:54] STAGE, THAT THE AUTHORITIES ARE SAYING, YOU KNOW, WE THAT THIS
[00:39:57] IS UNCONFIRMED, BUT WE'RE TAKING IT VERY SERIOUSLY. RIGHT.
[00:40:01] SO I THINK SAY I DO THINK IT WAS
[00:40:05] A MISTAKE FOR THEM NOT TO STAY AS ACTIVELY AND AGGRESSIVELY
[00:40:11] INVOLVED. CHARLES KRAUTHAMMER HAS WRITTEN
[00:40:13] A BRILLIANT PIECE ON THE NOTION THAT SOMEHOW WE OVERREACT.
[00:40:17] AND I DON'T THINK WE DID. I THINK WE DID EXACTLY WHAT WE HAD TO DO.
[00:40:21] AND THAT THE RESULTS SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES. DO 1 OR 2 MORE FROM ME, AND THEN
[00:40:25] WE'LL OPEN IT UP TO QUESTIONS FROM OTHERS.
[00:40:28] YOU OFTEN MADE THE CASE THAT IRAQ WAS A CENTRAL FRONT IN THE
[00:40:32] WAR ON TERROR.
[00:40:33] LOOKING BACK ON IRAQ, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT HAVE SAID THAT THAT
[00:40:38] PEOPLE HAVE FOCUSED ON IN READING YOUR BOOK AND IN THE
[00:40:41] REVIEWS OF YOUR BOOK IS THE FACT
[00:40:43] THAT YOU DON'T THINK THAT A LOT
[00:40:46] OF MISTAKES WERE MADE, THAT THERE'S NOT MUCH YOU WOULD
[00:40:49] CHANGE ABOUT THE WAY THAT THE IRAQ WAR WAS CONDUCTED.
[00:40:52] AND I NOTICED IN MY READING OF THE BOOK THAT IN THE CRITICISM
[00:40:57] OF WHAT THE STATE DEPARTMENT
[00:41:00] DID, YOU OFTEN FOCUSED ON SECRETARY POWELL AND LATER SECRETARY RICE.
[00:41:03] BUT IN THE CRITICISM HIM OF WHAT THE PENTAGON DID, YOU FOCUSED ON
[00:41:07] GENERAL CASEY AND ABIZAID AND
[00:41:10] DIDN'T FOCUS ON YOUR FRIEND AND
[00:41:12] MENTOR, DON RUMSFELD. WHY IS THAT?
[00:41:18] WELL, I THOUGHT I WROTE A PRETTY
[00:41:19] GOOD BOOK YET I THOUGHT IT WAS
[00:41:24] RELATIVELY BALANCED.
[00:41:27] I CHOSE NOT TO DWELL AT LENGTH,
[00:41:30] SORT OF ON ON WHAT TRANSPIRED IN
[00:41:34] THE IMMEDIATE AFTERMATH OF OR
[00:41:37] GOING INTO IRAQ. I MEAN, WE HAD THERE HAVE BEEN A
[00:41:40] LOT OF BOOKS WRITTEN, SOME OF THEM PRETTY GOOD.
[00:41:41] I THINK ABOUT THE POLICY IN
[00:41:46] TERMS OF OF SETTING UP A NEW
[00:41:48] GOVERNMENT IN IRAQ OF, YOU KNOW,
[00:41:50] JERRY BREMER HAS WRITTEN ONE.
[00:41:55] SEVERAL OTHER BOOKS HAVE BEEN WRITTEN, RUMSFELD'S WRITTEN
[00:41:57] PRETTY EXTENSIVELY ABOUT IT.
[00:42:01] AND I BASICALLY TOOK THE APPROACH THAT I COULD FOCUS ON A
[00:42:05] FEW THINGS. AND WHAT I REALLY WANTED TO FOCUS ON WAS THE SURGE AND THE
[00:42:10] COUNTERINSURGENCY DOCTRINE THAT ACCOMPANIED THE SURGE THAT WE
[00:42:13] PUT IN PLACE AT THE BEGINNING OF OH SEVEN.
[00:42:16] SO THERE'S A LOT WRITTEN ABOUT THAT IN MY BOOK, BUT I DIDN'T
[00:42:19] SPEND A LOT OF TIME GOING BACK
[00:42:23] OVER WHAT THE STATE DEPARTMENT DID WITH RESPECT TO MANAGING THE
[00:42:27] SITUATION IN IRAQ OR WHAT THE PENTAGON DID OUTSIDE NORMAL
[00:42:32] MILITARY ACTIVITIES IN TERMS OF THAT. BUT IF YOU READ JERRY BREMER'S
[00:42:35] BOOK AND IF YOU TALK TO OTHER PEOPLE, I'VE TALKED TO PEOPLE ON
[00:42:38] YOUR STAFF AND ELSEWHERE WHO SAID THAT YOU WERE ASKING
[00:42:42] QUESTIONS ABOUT THE US MILITARY STRATEGY IN IRAQ DURING THOSE
[00:42:46] YEARS, THAT THINGS OBVIOUSLY WEREN'T GOING WELL BY ASKING
[00:42:51] TOUGH QUESTIONS. WHAT IS OUR STRATEGY? DO WE KNOW HOW TO WIN?
[00:42:54] WHY ARE WE DOING THE SAME THING?
[00:42:56] IS THE TRAINING EFFECTIVE AND I
[00:43:00] GUESS I'M INTERESTED ON A
[00:43:01] PERSONAL LEVEL, WHEN DID YOU
[00:43:04] START ASKING THOSE QUESTIONS?
[00:43:08] WELL, ON A PERSONAL LEVEL, AT SOME POINT WE'LL SIT DOWN AND
[00:43:11] TALK ABOUT IT. I THOUGHT NOW IS I GUESS, GOOD A
[00:43:14] TIME AS ANY.
[00:43:16] NOW I KNOW I COULD HAVE.
[00:43:20] YOU HAVE TO MAKE CHOICES IN THE BOOK, AND WE WROTE ABOUT, WELL,
[00:43:24] A LITTLE LESS THAN 600 PAGES.
[00:43:27] AND AS I POINT OUT IN MY EARLIER
[00:43:31] REMARKS, I HAD MATERIAL FOR 4 OR 5 BOOKS.
[00:43:35] WHAT I CHOSE WAS TO FOCUS ON THE HIGHLIGHTS AS I SAW THEM AND
[00:43:39] WHAT I THOUGHT WAS WAS VITAL AND
[00:43:42] IN THAT REGARD, AND OBVIOUSLY I
[00:43:44] WROTE IT FROM MY PERSPECTIVE IN
[00:43:48] TERMS OF WHAT I SAW, WHAT I
[00:43:50] BELIEVED I EXERCISED A CERTAIN
[00:43:54] AMOUNT OF DISCRETION. I DIDN'T PUT DOWN EVERYTHING I
[00:43:56] KNOW ABOUT TO WHAT TRANSPIRED IN
[00:44:01] A WHOLE RANGE OF DIFFERENT AREAS. WILL THERE BE A SECOND VOLUME? WELL, I DON'T KNOW.
[00:44:04] IT DEPENDS ON HOW THIS ONE DOES. NOW, I YOU KNOW, THERE ARE
[00:44:10] THINGS I DIDN'T TALK ABOUT, NOT
[00:44:12] JUST ON IRAQ, BUT, YOU KNOW,
[00:44:15] THROUGHOUT MY 40 YEAR CAREER. I MEAN, WHEN YOU'RE CHIEF OF
[00:44:19] STAFF TO THE PRESIDENT, UNITED
[00:44:20] STATES, YOU YOU KNOW, YOU THERE
[00:44:23] ARE THINGS YOU'RE INVOLVED IN
[00:44:25] WHERE HE EXPECTS DISCRETION AND
[00:44:27] AND DESERVES IT.
[00:44:29] AND I DIDN'T WRITE ABOUT THOSE
[00:44:32] THINGS, BUT THAT'S GENERALLY TRUE OF LOTS OF THINGS.
[00:44:35] I AND CONNECTION WITH MY TIME
[00:44:39] THE PRESIDENT BUSH'S THE I THINK
[00:44:43] IT'S FAIR TO SAY IN BOTH CASES
[00:44:48] THERE ARE CONFIDENCES THAT THEY HAD ON ME AND CERTAIN ISSUES,
[00:44:52] AND I'VE HONORED THOSE ALWAYS WOULD ON SECOND TERM FOREIGN
[00:44:55] POLICY. YOU WRITE IN THE BOOK QUITE A BIT IN A CHAPTER THAT YOU NOT SO
[00:44:59] SUBTLY CALLED SETBACK ABOUT
[00:45:03] IRAN, ABOUT NORTH KOREA, ABOUT
[00:45:06] SYRIA, ABOUT NONPROLIFERATION ISSUES.
[00:45:09] AND YOU SUGGEST AT VARIOUS POINTS IN THE CHAPTER THAT THE
[00:45:13] BUSH ADMINISTRATION LOST ITS
[00:45:15] WAY, HAD ESSENTIALLY VEERED AWAY
[00:45:17] FROM THE BUSH DOCTRINE THAT WAS SO WELL ESTABLISHED IN THE FIRST TERM.
[00:45:22] AND I WONDER IF YOU THINK PRESIDENT BUSH HIMSELF SORT OF
[00:45:24] LOST HIS NERVE.
[00:45:28] I DIDN'T SAY THAT IN MY BOOK DIRECTLY. THAT'S WHY I'M ASKING YOU NOW.
[00:45:32] YEAH, NO, I.
[00:45:34] I DID WRITE A CHAPTER CALLED
[00:45:36] SENT BACK AND I THOUGHT IT WAS
[00:45:40] IMPORTANT BECAUSE IT WAS WELL,
[00:45:43] IT WAS A SOURCE OF FRUSTRATION FOR ME.
[00:45:46] IT ALSO DEMONSTRATED PRETTY CLEARLY THAT I DIDN'T WIN ALL
[00:45:49] THE ARGUMENTS, AND I THOUGHT
[00:45:51] THAT WAS IMPORTANT TO CONVEY
[00:45:56] THAT. AND THERE WERE THIS WAS AN AREA
[00:45:59] HAD TO DO WITH NORTH KOREA'S
[00:46:01] NUCLEAR ASPIRATIONS AND
[00:46:03] ACTIVITIES, BUILDING A NUCLEAR
[00:46:07] REACTOR FOR THE SYRIANS AND EASTERN SYRIA THAT WOULD ALLOW
[00:46:10] THEM ULTIMATELY TO PRODUCE NUCLEAR WEAPONS AND SO FORTH.
[00:46:15] IT WAS ONE WHERE THERE WERE SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCES INSIDE
[00:46:18] THE ADMINISTRATION. I THINK MANY OF THOSE WERE KNOWN, BUT PART OF MY INTEREST
[00:46:24] WAS IN PUTTING DOWN THE HISTORY OF THAT PERIOD AND THE POLICY DEBATES.
[00:46:27] AND I THOUGHT THERE WERE LESSONS TO BE LEARNED. WE WEREN'T THE FIRST
[00:46:30] ADMINISTRATION THAT HAD TROUBLE FIGURING OUT HOW DO YOU GET THE
[00:46:33] NORTH KOREANS NOT TO GO NUCLEAR?
[00:46:37] THE CLINTON ADMINISTRATION FACED SIMILAR PROBLEMS.
[00:46:40] I THINK THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION WILL HAVE SIMILAR PROBLEMS AS
[00:46:44] WELL, TOO. BUT I THOUGHT IT WAS IMPORTANT
[00:46:46] TO TO PUT DOWN THE RECORD, IF
[00:46:50] YOU WILL, OF HOW WE DEALT WITH IT.
[00:46:53] NOW, IN THE FINAL ANALYSIS, THE
[00:46:56] PRESIDENT MADE THE DECISION HE HAD TO MAKE CHOICES.
[00:47:00] THAT'S WHY HE GOT THE BIG BUCKS AND LIVED IN THE BIG HOUSE.
[00:47:03] THAT'S THAT'S THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE UNITED STATES.
[00:47:09] OBVIOUSLY, HE DIDN'T ALWAYS AGREE WITH MY ADVICE.
[00:47:11] AND IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, HE
[00:47:13] OPTED PRETTY MUCH FOR THE STATE DEPARTMENT VIEW OF HOW WE SHOULD
[00:47:17] PROCEED RATHER THAN WHAT I WAS RECOMMENDING.
[00:47:21] IT'S NOT THE FIRST TIME I'VE LOST AN ARGUMENT WITH THE PRESIDENT. YOU THINK WE'RE LESS SAFE
[00:47:25] BECAUSE OF THOSE DECISIONS?
[00:47:27] WELL, I THINK THAT'S A WAY TO
[00:47:31] PUT IT WOULD BE THAT I BELIEVED
[00:47:33] I GAVE AN INTERVIEW BEFORE 911.
[00:47:35] IT WAS ACTUALLY LONG AND MAYBE
[00:47:38] APRIL OR MAY OF 2000, ONE. WE'D ONLY BEEN IN OFFICE A
[00:47:42] COUPLE OF MONTHS AND IT
[00:47:46] BASICALLY, I THINK WAS IN ATLANTIC, NEW YORK, NEW YORKER,
[00:47:52] WHERE I CITED AS THE BIGGEST
[00:47:55] THREAT THE NATION FACED POSSIBILITY OF A TERRORIST
[00:47:58] ORGANIZATION ACQUIRING WEAPONS
[00:48:01] OF MASS DESTRUCTION, AN AL QAEDA
[00:48:03] WITH NUKES KIND OF THING THAT I
[00:48:08] BELIEVE DEEPLY, ESPECIALLY IN THE AFTERMATH OF 911.
[00:48:11] AND I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT ON
[00:48:14] THE 10TH ANNIVERSARY OF 911 TO
[00:48:16] REMIND OURSELVES THAT THAT THREAT STILL OUT THERE, STILL
[00:48:20] VERY REAL AND ONE OF THE THINGS
[00:48:23] I THOUGHT WE DID WELL UP TO A
[00:48:26] POINT WAS WHEN WE WENT IN AND
[00:48:29] AND WE TOOK DOWN SADDAM HUSSEIN,
[00:48:32] OBVIOUSLY, WE ELIMINATED ONE OF THE GUYS WHO'D BEEN A PRIME
[00:48:36] SOURCE OF WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION PREVIOUSLY HAD PRODUCED AND USED THE EQUIPMENT,
[00:48:41] WHETHER OR NOT HE HAD STOCKPILES AT THE TIME WHEN IT WENT IN.
[00:48:44] HE CLEARLY WAS A PROLIFERATOR, A
[00:48:48] POTENTIAL PROLIFERATOR OF THAT KIND OF CAPABILITY. BUT WE GOT RID OF SADDAM HUSSEIN
[00:48:51] AS A THREAT. WE FIVE DAYS AFTER WE WENT IN
[00:48:55] AND CAPTURED SADDAM, MOAMMAR
[00:48:58] GADHAFI HELD A PRESS
[00:49:02] ANNOUNCEMENT THAT HE WAS SURRENDERING ALL OF HIS NUCLEAR MATERIALS.
[00:49:04] HE HAD CENTRIFUGES FOR ENRICHING URANIUM. HE HAD URANIUM FEEDSTOCKS.
[00:49:08] HE HAD A WEAPONS DESIGN.
[00:49:12] AND HE SURRENDERED ALL OF THOSE.
[00:49:14] AND THEY'RE NOW IN OUR POSITION POSSESSION. THE UNITED STATES HAS THEM.
[00:49:18] SO WE TOOK HIM OUT OF THE NUCLEAR BUSINESS PRETTY GOOD
[00:49:21] GIVEN WHAT'S HAPPENED SINCE IN LIBYA. IT WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN GOOD TO
[00:49:25] HAVE THE DIFFICULTIES THEY HAD HAD OVER THERE.
[00:49:28] SCENARIO FOR MOAMMAR GADHAFI, THEY HAD NUCLEAR WEAPONS.
[00:49:31] WE ALSO TOOK DOWN THE A.Q. KHAN NETWORK.
[00:49:35] KHAN WAS THE MASTERMIND OF THE
[00:49:37] PAKISTANI NUCLEAR PROGRAM. THEN HE WENT INTO BUSINESS FOR
[00:49:41] HIMSELF, BLACK MARKET OPERATION,
[00:49:44] SELLING NUCLEAR MATERIALS. HIS BIGGEST CUSTOMER WAS LIBYA.
[00:49:48] BUT HE ALSO WAS DEALING WITH
[00:49:49] NORTH KOREA AND TO SOME EXTENT, WITH IRAQ.
[00:49:52] SO SADDAM, MOAMMAR GADHAFI, A.Q.
[00:49:55] KHAN, ALL PUT OUT OF BUSINESS FROM THE STANDPOINT OF HAVING TO
[00:49:59] WORRY ABOUT THEM PRODUCING AND
[00:50:03] OR PROLIFERATING OR USING THOSE MATERIALS.
[00:50:06] THE ONE WE DIDN'T GET A HANDLE ON WAS NORTH KOREA.
[00:50:09] AND WHAT THE CHAPTER YOU
[00:50:11] REFERRED TO THAT I CALL SETBACK
[00:50:13] BASICALLY IS THE STORY OF HOW WE
[00:50:16] DID NOT DEAL EFFECTIVELY WITH THE NORTH KOREAN THREAT RIGHT.
[00:50:20] AND SO I THINK, YOU KNOW, IF YOU'RE KEEPING SCORE, THREE OUT
[00:50:24] OF FOUR IS NOT BAD.
[00:50:26] BUT THE PROBLEM IS THAT THREAT IS VERY REAL.
[00:50:29] AND NORTH KOREANS ESPECIALLY
[00:50:31] DANGEROUS BECAUSE THEY'VE NOW TESTED TWO WEAPONS.
[00:50:34] THEY HAVE WE WE CAUGHT THEM RED
[00:50:38] HANDED WITH RESPECT TO THEIR
[00:50:43] PROVIDE ADDING A PLUTONIUM
[00:50:46] REACTOR TO ONE OF THE WORST TERRORIST SPONSORING REGIMES ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH.
[00:50:51] SYRIA AND FORTUNATELY FOR US,
[00:50:53] THE ISRAELIS TOOK THAT OUT SO WE
[00:50:55] DIDN'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT THAT ANYMORE.
[00:50:58] BUT THE NORTH KOREANS CLEARLY ESTABLISHED THAT THEY WILL
[00:51:01] PROLIFERATE NUCLEAR MATERIALS TO
[00:51:04] TERRORIST SPONSORING REGIMES.
[00:51:06] AND THE PROBLEM THAT WE'RE FACED
[00:51:11] WITH IS THEY'RE STILL VERY MUCH THERE.
[00:51:14] AND WE DO NOT YET HAVE A HANDLE ON ON NORTH KOREA.
[00:51:18] THE PROBLEM, OBVIOUSLY, IS STILL IRAN, AND WE HAVEN'T EVEN TALKED ABOUT THAT.
[00:51:22] BUT THEY'VE GOT TO BE FRONT AND CENTER AS WELL AS THE NORTH
[00:51:25] KOREANS IN TERMS OF OUR CONCERNS ABOUT THAT THREAT.
[00:51:29] AND I DO BELIEVE STILL TODAY, AS WE MEET, THAT THAT'S THE MOST
[00:51:33] DANGEROUS THREAT. THE UNITED STATES FACES, IS THAT
[00:51:36] THAT TECHNOL AG WILL FALL INTO THE HANDS OF AN AL QAEDA TYPE
[00:51:41] ORGANIZATION. AND THEN NUCLEAR WEAPONS ARE NO LONGER BE A DETERRENT.
[00:51:44] THERE'LL BE AN INCENTIVE, RIGHT? WELL, MAYBE WE CAN TAKE A FEW
[00:51:48] QUESTIONS AND MAYBE WE'LL GET A QUESTION ABOUT IRAN, PLEASE.
[00:51:52] WHEN WHEN YOU ARE CALLED ON, WAIT FOR THE MICROPHONE.
[00:51:56] GIVE YOUR NAME AND YOUR
[00:51:58] AFFILIATION AND ASK A QUESTION. AND RATHER THAN MAKING A LONG
[00:52:03] STATEMENT. THANK YOU. YES, MA'AM.
[00:52:06] WERE YOU SURPRISED WHEN YOU FOUND OUT THAT OSAMA BIN LADEN
[00:52:09] WAS IN PAKISTAN? AND IN TERMS OF YOUR TALKING
[00:52:13] WITH PRESIDENT MUSHARRAF AT THAT TIME, THE COOPERATION THAT YOU
[00:52:16] HAD BETWEEN BOTH COUNTRIES, DID YOU AT ANY POINT FEEL THAT THE
[00:52:20] PAKISTANI AUTHORITIES HAD BEEN HIDING SOMETHING FROM THE BUSH
[00:52:23] ADMINISTRATION? I NEVER HAD REASON TO BELIEVE
[00:52:27] THAT PRESIDENT MUSHARRAF WAS
[00:52:30] INVOLVED IN ANYTHING LIKE THAT.
[00:52:32] THERE WAS I THINK THERE WAS A
[00:52:36] GENERAL VIEW THAT BIN LADEN WAS
[00:52:40] IN REMOTE AT SOME REMOTE SECTION
[00:52:45] OF OF PAKISTAN, NOT JUST SHORT
[00:52:49] WAYS FROM ISLAMABAD.
[00:52:51] I THINK WHAT WAS STARTLING WAS
[00:52:54] TO FIND THAT HE WAS LIVING WHERE HE WAS.
[00:52:57] HE WASN'T HIDING IN A CAVE SOMEPLACE LIKE THERE WAS A LOT
[00:53:00] OF THE THE IMAGERY THAT SOMEHOW HE'D GONE UNDERGROUND,
[00:53:07] FIGURATIVELY. I BUT I HAD NO REACH IN MY
[00:53:10] DEALINGS WITH PRESIDENT MUSHARRAF.
[00:53:12] AND I DEALT WITH HIM QUITE A BIT.
[00:53:14] THE QUESTION IS.
[00:53:17] HIS COMMITMENT TO THE WORK HE
[00:53:20] WAS DOING WITH US TO HELP US DEAL WITH THE THREAT THAT HAD
[00:53:24] EMERGED FROM PAKISTAN.
[00:53:26] I THINK HE CAME TO BELIEVE THAT
[00:53:29] AL QAEDA TYPES THREATEN HIM
[00:53:33] PERSONALLY, AS WELL AS HIS REGIME AS MUCH AS THEY DID THE UNITED STATES.
[00:53:36] AND I THINK THAT WAS TRUE 2 OR 3
[00:53:39] TIMES ON HIS LIFE IN A MATTER OF WEEKS BY AL QAEDA AND OR AL
[00:53:44] QAIDA AFFILIATED ORGANIZATIONS
[00:53:49] WHILE HE WAS STILL PRESIDENT.
[00:53:50] ANOTHER QUESTION, MR. WHITE,
[00:53:54] DOWN HERE IN THE FRONT.
[00:54:03] MR. VICE PRESIDENT, MY NAME IS JASON STERN. I'M A GRADUATE STUDENT OF MIDDLE
[00:54:06] EAST STUDIES AT GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY.
[00:54:09] I THINK IT'S FAIR TO SAY THAT NO MATTER WHO WAS IN THE WHITE
[00:54:12] HOUSE, THE ARAB SPRING REPRESENTED A GREAT CHALLENGE. BOTH A CHALLENGE TO PROTECT OUR
[00:54:16] INTERESTS AND A CHALLENGE UPHOLD OUR VALUES.
[00:54:20] HOW WELL IS THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION RESPOND TO ARAB SPRING? AND HOW WOULD THE BUSH
[00:54:24] ADMINISTRATION HAVE RESPONDED DIFFERENTLY IF THEY HAD STILL BEEN IN POWER?
[00:54:27] THANK YOU.
[00:54:29] WELL, I IT'S DIFFICULT TO JUDGE
[00:54:35] THE QUALITY OF THE CURRENT EFFORT WITHOUT HAVING TO
[00:54:39] SPECULATE ABOUT WHAT'S GOING TO COME OUT AT THE AT THE FAR END
[00:54:43] OF THE PROCESS.
[00:54:45] AND FRANKLY, I DON'T HAVE A
[00:54:53] ANSWERS TO A COUPLE OF KEY QUESTIONS. I DON'T KNOW WHO'S GOING TO BE
[00:54:56] IN CHARGE WHEN THE DUST ROLLS
[00:54:59] AND NEW GOVERNMENTS ARE ESTABLISHED.
[00:55:02] WHAT ARE THESE REGIMES GOING TO BE LIKE? HOW ARE THEY GOING TO LOOK AT
[00:55:06] THE U.S.? WHAT KIND OF RELATIONSHIPS ARE WE GOING TO HAVE?
[00:55:09] IN SOME CASES, SOME OF THE
[00:55:11] REGIMES THAT HAVE BEEN REPLACED,
[00:55:17] LIKE PRESIDENT MUBARAK IN EGYPT, FOR EXAMPLE, HAVE BEEN GOOD
[00:55:20] FRIENDS AND ALLIES OF THE UNITED STATES OVER THE YEARS.
[00:55:23] WE'RE CLOSELY TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE FIRST GULF WAR, FOR EXAMPLE.
[00:55:26] SO I IF YOU IF YOU'RE ÉVALUÉ
[00:55:31] RATING THE OUTCOME IN TERMS OF U.S. INTEREST, I THINK THERE'S A
[00:55:35] LOT WE DON'T YET KNOW ABOUT
[00:55:39] ABOUT THE OUTCOME IN TERMS OF WHETHER OR NOT WE SHOULD BE
[00:55:43] SUPPORTIVE.
[00:55:43] I THINK THAT IT IS IMPORTANT FOR
[00:55:49] US TO CONTINUE TO EXPRESS OUR
[00:55:51] SUPPORT OF CERTAIN VALUES, THAT
[00:55:53] WE BELIEVE PEOPLE OUGHT TO HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO LIVE BY.
[00:55:57] WE BELIEVE IN FREEDOM AND
[00:55:59] DEMOCRACY AND I THINK THAT NEEDS
[00:56:03] TO COME THROUGH THAT. BUT AGAIN, YOU GOT TO COME BACK
[00:56:06] AND BE CAUTIOUS HERE. I THINK IN TERMS OF ARE WE
[00:56:11] PROMOTING THAT PROCESS WITH
[00:56:14] RESPECT TO ISLAMIC FUNDAMENTALIST OR TO GROUPS OR
[00:56:19] ORGANIZATIONS THAT MAY HAVE WON AN ELECTION AND THEN NOW SHUT
[00:56:22] DOWN THE ELECTORAL PROCESS AND
[00:56:24] YOU'LL HAVE THE EQUIVALENT OF HAMAS RUN ON GAZA?
[00:56:29] WE DON'T KNOW YET. AND I THINK IT'S DIFFICULT TO
[00:56:32] MAKE A FINAL JUDGMENT UNTIL WE SEE HOW SOME OF THOSE THINGS DEVELOP.
[00:56:36] SHOULD THE UNITED STATES BE TAKING A MORE OUT FRONT ROLE IN
[00:56:40] PROMOTING THE ARAB SPRING?
[00:56:42] WELL, TO DO I'M I'M CAUTIOUS, STEVE.
[00:56:47] PARTLY. BECAUSE THERE ARE THINGS WE DON'T KNOW.
[00:56:52] BUT ALSO I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT FOR US TO BE A LITTLE CAUTIOUS
[00:56:55] ABOUT LUMPING THEM ALL TOGETHER
[00:56:58] AND MY EXPERIENCE OVER THE YEARS WITH THAT PART OF THE WORLD IS
[00:57:02] IT'S VERY IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER THESE ARE DIFFERENT COUNTRIES.
[00:57:04] IN SOME CASES, THERE ARE LINGUISTIC DIFFERENCES AND SOME
[00:57:08] CASES THERE ARE RELIGIOUS DIFFERENCES OR SPLITS BETWEEN
[00:57:13] SHIA AND SUNNI, AND IN SOME
[00:57:17] CASES YOU'VE GOT GOVERNMENTS THAT I THINK ARE PROBABLY VIEWED
[00:57:20] AS LEGITIMATE IN THE EYES OF THE
[00:57:22] GOVERNED AND OTHERS, WHERE
[00:57:24] CLEARLY SYRIA COMES TO MIND.
[00:57:26] YOU'VE GOT A BRUTAL DICTATOR
[00:57:28] WHO'S IN CHARGE AND USING
[00:57:31] VIOLENCE TO TRY TO PRESERVE HIS HOLD ON POWER.
[00:57:33] AND MOST OF US COULD AGREE THAT
[00:57:36] THAT BASHIR ASSAD OUGHT TO GO.
[00:57:40] SO YOU NEED TO MAKE THOSE KINDS OF JUDGMENTS. WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THE ARAB
[00:57:46] SPRING. I THINK I UNDERSTAND WHAT THAT MEANS.
[00:57:49] AND I THINK GENERALLY IT'S BEEN
[00:57:51] WELCOMED AS A FUNDAMENTAL CHANGE
[00:57:55] IN REFORM, IF YOU WILL, IN THE REGION.
[00:57:57] BUT I DO THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO
[00:57:59] KEEP IN MIND, AS WE EVALUATE
[00:58:02] THESE DEVELOPMENTS, THAT EACH
[00:58:05] AND EVERY ONE OF THESE COUNTRIES
[00:58:07] IS DIFFERENT AND NEEDS TO BE
[00:58:11] DEALT WITH ACCORDINGLY. NEXT QUESTION.
[00:58:15] YES, OVER THERE IN THE FRONT.
[00:58:23] ALLISON EVERSON, I'M YOUR AVERAGE CITIZEN WHO'S HERE.
[00:58:26] I HAVE A QUESTION. WHEN DO WE KNOW WE WON THE GLOBAL WAR ON TERROR?
[00:58:31] WHEN DO WE KNOW WE WON THE GLOBAL WAR ON TERROR?
[00:58:34] WELL, THE.
[00:58:37] FACTS ARE OBVIOUSLY, THERE'S
[00:58:40] IT'S NOT SIMILAR TO WHAT WE
[00:58:44] THINK OF AS A CONVENTIONAL WAR
[00:58:47] WHERE, YOU KNOW, WE GET THE BATTLESHIP MISSOURI AND STEAMING
[00:58:50] INTO TOKYO HARBOR. AND YOU HAD ALL THE GUYS THERE
[00:58:54] TO SIGN A DOCUMENT SAYING, WE QUIT. THAT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.
[00:58:59] AND I THINK THERE IS EVIDENCE OUT THERE THAT WE'RE MAKING
[00:59:02] SIGNIFICANT PROGRESS.
[00:59:03] I THINK GETTING OSAMA BIN LADEN
[00:59:07] VERY IMPORTANT. AND VERY USEFUL, DEMONSTRATED
[00:59:12] PART OF THAT PROCESS.
[00:59:13] BUT I THINK ALSO IT MAY BE THE
[00:59:18] KIND OF THING THAT JUST GRADUALLY FADES OVER TIME.
[00:59:21] BUT I DON'T THINK THERE'S GOING
[00:59:24] TO BE THAT THERE'S LIKELY TO BE KIND OF AHA MOMENT WHEREIN SAY
[00:59:28] THAT ARE THERE. IT'S DONE.
[00:59:32] I DON'T THINK IT'S LIKELY TO TAKE A COUPLE MORE.
[00:59:38] SURE. I SUPPOSE IF I COULD TAKE YOU
[00:59:41] BACK TO YOUR EARLIER COMMENTS ABOUT THE MIDDLE EAST AND BRING
[00:59:45] IT BACK IN HISTORY, THE GREAT
[00:59:47] CONTROVERSY AT THE CLOSE OF THE BUSH 41 ADMINISTRATION WAS
[00:59:51] GENERAL NORMS. SCHWARZKOPF ASSERTION THAT HAD
[00:59:55] WE CONTINUED, THE MARCH WAS THE PHRASE WE USED, THERE MIGHT HAVE BEEN A DIFFERENT OUTCOME.
[00:59:59] WHAT DO YOU THINK THAT OUTCOME WOULD HAVE BEEN HAD HIS ADVICE
[01:00:01] BEEN PURSUED IN THAT REGARD? HOW WOULD THAT HAVE CHANGED THE
[01:00:05] COURSE OF EVENTS? WELL.
[01:00:08] JOHN'S TALKING ABOUT WHEN HE AND
[01:00:11] I WERE IN CHARGE OF THE PENTAGON, I WAS THE SECRETARY,
[01:00:15] BUT HE WAS THE CONTROLLER WHO WERE ALL AMONG.
[01:00:20] AND THE IT WAS, I THINK, BACK ON
[01:00:24] THAT I AM CAREFUL HERE NOT TO
[01:00:28] CHALLENGE MY COLLEAGUES FROM THAT ERA BECAUSE I THINK THEY
[01:00:31] ALL DID THE GOOD WORK.
[01:00:34] BUT I MY RECOLLECTION OF THE
[01:00:38] CLOSE OF THE GULF WAR WAS THAT
[01:00:41] THERE WAS UNANIMITY ON THE PART
[01:00:43] OF THE PRESIDENT OF HIS SENIOR
[01:00:47] CIVILIAN AND MILITARY ADVISERS
[01:00:52] THAT WE GATHERED AROUND THE DESK IN THE OVAL OFFICE.
[01:00:55] WE HAD A SECURE LINE OPEN TO
[01:01:00] RIYADH, WHERE OUR SENIOR MILITARY COMMANDER, GENERAL
[01:01:04] SCHWARZKOPF, WAS. AND YOU KNOW, YOU COULD LOOK
[01:01:07] BACK ON IT LATER AND SAY, WELL, WE SHOULDN'T HAVE DONE THIS OR
[01:01:11] WE SHOULDN'T HAVE LET THEM HAVE HELICOPTERS OR THERE WERE THINGS
[01:01:13] WE DIDN'T KNOW AT THE TIME.
[01:01:17] BUT THERE WAS A GENERAL SENSE THAT WE'D DONE WHAT WE SET OUT
[01:01:20] TO DO, SAID WE WERE GOING TO LIBERATE KUWAIT. THAT'S WHAT CONGRESS HAD
[01:01:24] AUTHORIZED. SO WHAT THE U.N. SECURITY COUNCIL HAD SIGNED UP TO, THAT'S
[01:01:27] WHAT WE TOLD THE COALITION AND THAT'S WHAT WE TOLD OUR TROOPS
[01:01:29] WE WERE GOING TO DO. AND I HAD PROMISED WHEN I'D GONE OVER THERE INITIALLY TO GET
[01:01:33] PERMISSION TO PUT U.S. FORCES INTO SAUDI.
[01:01:37] I'D ALSO PROMISED THEM AS SOON AS WE'D COMPLETED THE MISSION,
[01:01:41] WE'D GO HOME. WE WERE NOT LOOKING FOR
[01:01:43] PERMANENT BASES IN SAUDI ARABIA
[01:01:47] AND SO THERE WAS A GENERAL SENSE
[01:01:51] THAT NOW, SHOULD WE HAVE GONE
[01:01:52] ALL THE WAY TO BAGHDAD, THEN
[01:01:57] CIRCUMSTANCES WERE PRETTY DRAMATICALLY DIFFERENT.
[01:01:59] TEN YEARS LATER, AFTER WE'D HAD THE EVENTS OF 911, AFTER WE'D
[01:02:04] SEEN SADDAM VIOLATE 16 ON A 17
[01:02:07] U.N. SECURITY COUNCIL RESOLUTIONS AND PRODUCE A NEWS
[01:02:11] WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION
[01:02:13] AGAINST HIS OWN PEOPLE. YOU KNOW, THE WORLD HAD SHIFTED.
[01:02:18] TEN YEARS LATER AND IF WE'D GONE
[01:02:22] IN, IF THERE WAS A WAY TO DO ONE
[01:02:26] THING I COULD THINK OF, THAT I WOULD LIKE TO HAVE CHANGED.
[01:02:30] IT WOULD HAVE BEEN TO HAVE
[01:02:33] SADDAM AT THE TABLE SIGNING THE
[01:02:35] SURRENDER DOCUMENT THAT ONE OF
[01:02:37] THE THINGS THAT EMERGED OUT OF
[01:02:40] THE WAY IT WAS DEALT WITH WAS HE
[01:02:43] HE WAS VERY CREATIVE AND DIDN'T
[01:02:48] HAVE ANY QUALMS ABOUT
[01:02:52] MISREPRESENTING THE SITUATION. BUT FOR YEARS AFTERWARDS, HE
[01:02:54] PEDDLED HIMSELF AS SOMEBODY WHO
[01:02:57] HAD DEFIED AND SUCCESSFULLY
[01:03:00] DEFIED THE GREAT SATAN, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.
[01:03:03] BECAUSE, AFTER ALL WE'D DONE TO HIM, HE WAS STILL STANDING.
[01:03:07] IT WAS THE FACT THAT HE WAS STILL STANDING, THAT HE USED TO
[01:03:11] DEMONSTRATE OR VALIDATE THE NOTION THAT HE'D WON.
[01:03:15] AND OF COURSE, HE HADN'T. BUT HE WAS ABLE TO PEDDLE THAT
[01:03:18] IN THAT PART OF THE WORLD.
[01:03:19] AND SO IF I COULD THINK OF ONE THING THAT I MIGHT HAVE LIKED TO
[01:03:23] HAVE SEEN DIFFERENTLY WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN TO GO INTO BAGHDAD AT
[01:03:27] THAT POINT, BUT IT WOULD HAVE BEEN TO HAVE HIM, YOU KNOW, SET
[01:03:30] HIS FAMILY DOWN IN THE CHAIR AND
[01:03:32] SIGN THE SURRENDER DOCUMENT.
[01:03:41] YES, SIR. MY NAME IS, SAID ERICA FROM THE
[01:03:45] DAILY NEWSPAPER I'M SORRY, FROM MY NAME SITE.
[01:03:49] ERICA FROM AMERICA'S DAILY NEWSPAPER. BUT I ALSO SERVED IN IRAQ FOR
[01:03:52] FIVE YEARS AS A UNITED NATIONS SPOKESMAN. AND I CAN TELL YOU, SIR, THAT
[01:03:56] IRAQ IS A DISASTER ZONE WITH A VERY LITTLE CHANCE TO RECOVER FOR DECADES TO COME.
[01:04:00] IRAN HAS ALMOST TOTAL HEGEMONY, AND THE UNITED STATES IS ABOUT
[01:04:04] TO CUT AND RUN. IN RETROSPECT, WASN'T IT A MISTAKE TO INVADE IRAQ?
[01:04:07] WELL, I THINK IT WOULD BE A MISTAKE TO CUT AND RUN.
[01:04:11] I DON'T THINK WE SHOULD.
[01:04:17] TURN OUR BACK ON IRAQ AT THIS STAGE. AND THE EFFORTS THAT WE'VE
[01:04:22] MOUNTED THERE OVER THE YEARS, I THINK IT'S VERY IMPORTANT FOR US
[01:04:25] TO COMPLETE THE MISSION.
[01:04:26] AND I, I THINK MY OWN PERSONAL
[01:04:31] VIEW IS THAT THERE'S A DANGER
[01:04:35] HERE OF A RUSH FOR THE EXITS UNDER THE CURRENT
[01:04:39] ADMINISTRATION. AND THAT WOULD BE REALLY
[01:04:44] UNFORTUNATE. ONE MORE QUICK ONE. SURE. RUN WITH IT.
[01:04:48] I AND THE WASHINGTON EXAMINER.
[01:04:50] PRESIDENT BUSH, IN HIS MEMOIR, WHICH DOESN'T PURPORT TO COVER
[01:04:54] THIS WHOLE ADMINISTRATION MISSION, DOESN'T REALLY MENTION
[01:04:56] IRAQ FROM THE SPRING OF OH THREE, THE SPRING OF OH SIX.
[01:04:59] WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THE CRITICISM THAT THE PRESIDENT WAS
[01:05:05] INSUFFICIENTLY MONITORING HIS
[01:05:08] GENERALS AND NOT ELICITING EARLY ENOUGH OR AS EARLY AS DESIRABLE,
[01:05:11] SOMETHING ON THE ORDER OF THE
[01:05:14] SURGE STRATEGY, WHICH WAS ULTIMATELY DEVELOPED AT THE END
[01:05:17] OF OH SIX AND OH SEVEN, EARLY OH SEVEN. COULD THAT HAVE BEEN DONE
[01:05:21] EARLIER? HMM. WELL, I.
[01:05:27] I'M INCLINED, MICHAEL, FIRST OF ALL, WHAT I REMEMBER IS THAT THE
[01:05:31] PRESIDENT WAS HEAVILY ENGAGED DURING THAT PERIOD OF TIME.
[01:05:34] HE WAS NOT BY ANY MEANS IGNORING
[01:05:37] WHAT WAS GOING ON IN THE IN THE
[01:05:40] OPERATIONS IN IRAQ.
[01:05:43] WE HAD FAIRLY REGULAR SESSIONS
[01:05:48] WHERE HE WOULD GET ON THE SECURE
[01:05:52] HOOK UP TO TO BAGHDAD, NOT ONLY
[01:05:55] WITH OUR OWN SENIOR PEOPLE, BUT ALSO WITH THE SENIOR IRAQIS.
[01:06:00] I'VE GOT A PICTURE.
[01:06:02] THERE'S A PICTURE I PUT IN MY
[01:06:04] BOOK OF RUMSFELD AND RICE AND I
[01:06:08] UP AT CAMP DAVID AND DOESN'T
[01:06:11] SHOW THE PRESIDENT BECAUSE HE'S ON THE OTHER END IN BAGHDAD.
[01:06:14] AND WE'VE GOT A SECURE HOOK UP
[01:06:16] DURING THAT PERIOD OF TIME.
[01:06:19] HE'S GONE INTO BAGHDAD AND HE'S
[01:06:21] OVER THERE VISITING WITH HAVING
[01:06:23] AN IMPORTANT SESSION WITH THEN
[01:06:27] PRIME MINISTER MALIKI. SO I DON'T THE NOTION THAT
[01:06:29] SOMEHOW HE TURNED HIS BACK ON OR
[01:06:31] WASN'T FOCUSED ON WASN'T
[01:06:34] ENGAGED, I WOULD I WOULD CHALLENGE THAT.
[01:06:37] I DON'T THINK THAT'S TRUE.
[01:06:39] LET ME TAKE THE PREROGATIVE OF ASKING ONE LAST QUESTION,
[01:06:42] BRINGING THIS SORT OF BACK TO 911.
[01:06:44] YOU'VE MADE THE CASE THAT 911 CHANGED THE GOVERNMENT, AND I
[01:06:48] THINK THAT'S OBVIOUS TO EVERYONE. IN MANY RESPECTS, IT CHANGED THE
[01:06:51] COUNTRY, CLEARLY CHANGED THE WORLD. DID IT CHANGE, YOU?
[01:06:57] THE 911 CHANGED ME.
[01:07:01] WELL, IT WAS.
[01:07:03] I DON'T THINK IT CHANGED ME IN
[01:07:07] THE SENSE THAT SOME HAVE SUGGESTED THAT, YOU KNOW, I I'VE
[01:07:11] GOT FRIENDS OUT THERE USED TO BE
[01:07:13] FRIENDS WHO SAY I KNEW CHENEY
[01:07:18] WHEN WHEN HE WAS A NICE GUY, WAS WARM AND FUZZY.
[01:07:20] BUT I DON'T KNOW HIM NOW.
[01:07:25] AND, YOU KNOW, THE OTHER NIGHT I DID JAY LENO. I DON'T KNOW WHETHER ANYBODY
[01:07:28] HERE SAW, BUT THEY HAVE WHAT
[01:07:31] THEY CALL A COLD OPEN.
[01:07:33] AND THE PROGRAM BEGINS WITH A J
[01:07:36] IN GREETING HIS GUEST FOR THAT EVENING.
[01:07:39] HE'S WEARING BLUE JEANS AND SO FORTH AND GOT HIS SUIT ON YET.
[01:07:43] AND HE ASKED ME IF I'M GOING TO
[01:07:46] WEAR THE SUIT THAT'S THERE ON A
[01:07:48] HANGER ON THE SHOW THAT NIGHT. AND AT THAT POINT, I OPENED THE DOOR AND COME OUT OF THE
[01:07:54] DRESSING ROOM AND I'M DRESSED AS DARTH VADER.
[01:08:00] WHICH HE WAS. HE WAS PART OF THE JOKE.
[01:08:02] BUT IT IT DIDN'T HELP MY IMAGE
[01:08:05] ANY AS MORE THAN I DON'T, I
[01:08:12] SUPPOSE I DON'T I CAN'T SAY IT DIDN'T CHANGE ME.
[01:08:15] IT'S PART OF MY LIFE AND IT WAS
[01:08:17] AN IMPORTANT MILESTONE FOR ALL
[01:08:21] OF US. AND OBVIOUSLY I SPENT THE NEXT
[01:08:25] SEVEN AND A HALF YEARS WORKING WITH THE PRESIDENT AND AND OUR
[01:08:29] COLLEAGUES TO TRY TO MAKE ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN THAT THAT NEVER HAPPENED AGAIN ON OUR
[01:08:33] WATCH. AND THAT MEANT WE HAD TO TAKE
[01:08:36] STEPS AND ENACT POLICIES THAT WERE GOING TO GUARANTEE THE
[01:08:39] SAFETY AND SECURITY OF OF THE
[01:08:42] AMERICAN PEOPLE. I SORT OF SEE IT AS, OKAY,
[01:08:46] HERE'S THE PROBLEM. THIS IS WHAT WE'RE GOING TO DO ABOUT IT.
[01:08:48] AND THEN WE DID IT.
[01:08:53] THE NOTION THAT.
[01:08:57] OF CHANGE MAINLY CAME TO FOCUS
[01:09:01] IN MY OWN MIND AND SAY, I'D THOUGHT BEFORE ABOUT THIS
[01:09:05] PROBLEM OF 911 STYLE ATTACK,
[01:09:09] TERRORIST ATTACK WITH DEADLIER WEAPON, SOMETHING OTHER THAN BOX
[01:09:13] CUTTERS AND AIRLINE TICKETS. BUT THE EVENTS OF 911 REALLY
[01:09:16] BROUGHT THAT HOME.
[01:09:17] AND I, I THINK IT IT HEIGHTENED
[01:09:22] MY CONCERN IF AND BE A FAIR WAY
[01:09:24] TO PUT IT ABOUT THE POTENTIALLY
[01:09:29] DEVASTATING CONSEQUENCES. I MEAN WE YOU KNOW, WE HAD
[01:09:32] ANTHRAX ATTACKS AT THE SAME TIME. TURNED OUT THOSE WERE PROBABLY
[01:09:36] DOMESTIC ONLY INITIATED. WE HAD ONE NIGHT I REMEMBER
[01:09:40] BEING AT THE AL SMITH DINNER UP IN NEW YORK A MONTH AFTER 911.
[01:09:46] AND AS WE LANDED THAT DAY TO GO
[01:09:49] DOWN TO THE WALDORF WHERE I WAS THE GUEST SPEAKER FOR THE
[01:09:53] EVENING, RECEIVED WORD THAT
[01:09:56] THERE'D BEEN A BOTULISM ATTACK AT THE WHITE HOUSE. ONE OF THE DETECTORS HAD GONE
[01:10:00] OFF SUGGESTING THAT THE PRESIDENT AND I AND AND OTHERS
[01:10:03] HAD BEEN EXPOSED TO BOTULISM
[01:10:05] TOXIN, WHICH IS DEADLY, DEADLY.
[01:10:09] AND WE DIDN'T KNOW FOR SEVERAL HOURS WHETHER IT WAS TRUE OR NOT OR FALSE READING TURNED OUT TO
[01:10:13] BE A FALSE READING, FORTUNATELY. BUT, YOU KNOW, SO THERE WAS
[01:10:17] THERE WAS A LEVEL OF OF
[01:10:19] HEIGHTENED CONCERN IN THE
[01:10:21] IMMEDIATE AFTERMATH OF 911 THAT
[01:10:24] WE HAD TO DEAL WITH. IT WAS LIKE ON 911, YOU GET A
[01:10:29] REPORT THAT THERE ARE SIX PLANES HIJACKED. TURNS OUT THERE WERE ONLY FOUR.
[01:10:33] THAT WAS ENOUGH REPORT THAT THERE WAS A CAR BOMB AT THE
[01:10:37] STATE DEPARTMENT. TURNED OUT THERE WAS NO CAR BOMB AT THE STATE DEPARTMENT.
[01:10:40] TURNED OUT THERE WAS THERE WAS A
[01:10:43] REPORT OF A PLANE THAT HAD GONE DOWN ON THE OHIO WEST VIRGINIA
[01:10:48] BORDER. NO, THAT WAS AMERICAN 77.
[01:10:51] THAT SIMPLY DROPPED OFF THE RADAR AND HIT THE PENTAGON.
[01:10:55] THERE WAS A REPORT OF A PLANE DOWN IN PENSILVA, NEAR SHANKSVILLE.
[01:10:59] TURNED OUT THAT WAS TRUE. THAT WAS UNITED 93.
[01:11:02] SO, YOU KNOW, AS WE WENT THROUGH THAT PROCESS IN THE IMMEDIATE
[01:11:07] AFTERMATH, BOTH AS WERE PUTTING TOGETHER POLICIES AND SO FORTH,
[01:11:09] THERE'S NO QUESTION ABOUT WHAT
[01:11:11] THERE WAS A SIGNIFICANT ELEVATED LEVEL OF CONCERN.
[01:11:14] AND I FELT IT LIKE I THINK MOST OF US DID. BUT I DON'T KNOW HOW I COULD
[01:11:18] HAVE DONE MY JOB IF I HADN'T.
[01:11:20] AND I FELT THAT PART OF MY JOB
[01:11:24] WAS AS THE PRESIDENT'S WAS TO
[01:11:29] MAKE CERTAIN THAT WE NEVER AGAIN
[01:11:31] GOT HIT THE WAY WE DID ON 911.
[01:11:35] WELL, WITH THAT, I'D LIKE TO THANK MR. VICE PRESIDENT AND THANK THE AMERICAN ENTERPRISE
[01:11:40] INSTITUTE FOR HOSTING.
[01:11:40] AND THANK ALL OF YOU FOR COMING.
[01:11:46] IN. WELL, THANK YOU. THANKS SO MUCH.
[01:11:50] THANKS SO MUCH, STEVEN. VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY AIR
[01:11:54] EXTRAORDINARILY GRATEFUL TO HAVE A FRIEND LIKE YOU, A SCHOLAR,
[01:11:58] STATESMAN AND MAN OF ACTION, WHICH REPRESENTS HIS AMBITIONS
[01:12:00] SO WELL. WE'RE SO THANKFUL FOR YOUR TIME
[01:12:04] THIS MORNING, MRS. CHENEY. LIZ CHENEY, THANKS FOR BEING HERE. THANKS FOR ALL OF THE QUESTIONS
[01:12:08] THIS MORNING. WE'LL LET YOU GET OUT OF HERE. I THINK YOU'VE GOT SOME MEDIA
[01:12:12] INTERVIEWS RIGHT AFTER THIS. AND THEN WE'LL EXCUSE US THE CROWD.
[01:12:15] THANKS AGAIN.
[01:12:47] FOR.
[01:12:54] ALL. VERY, VERY GOOD.
[01:12:59] GOOD.
[01:13:03] WORK YOU DO.
[01:13:09] NOW.
[01:13:16] YOU'RE. THINKING.
[01:13:20] FROM COMING OUT.
[01:13:22] SO YOU'RE BUSY.
[01:13:26] WATCHING WHAT YOU READ ARTICLES.
[01:13:31] ON THE OUTSIDE.
[01:13:35] SO GREAT TO SEE THAT EVERYONE.
[01:13:42] THAT MAKES A GREAT.
[01:13:53] AMERICAN WEEKEND. I THINK MOST PEOPLE ARE SURPRISED.
[01:13:55] THEY'VE NEVER HEARD ABOUT A LOVE STORY COMING OUT FROM SUCH A
[01:13:59] TERRIBLE SITUATION.
[01:14:09] MY NAME'S RAFE GRECO. MY NAME IS BIANCA GRECO.
[01:14:11] ON SEPTEMBER 11TH, I WAS IN
[01:14:15] TOWER ONE ON THE BEFORE LEVEL FOUR LEVELS BELOW GROUND.
[01:14:19] I WORKED FOR TURNER CONSTRUCTION. THERE WERE A GENERAL CONTRACTOR
[01:14:21] IN THE BUILDING FIXING UP THE MECHANICAL ROOMS.
[01:14:25] I HEARD THE ELEVATOR FALLING IN
[01:14:28] THE SHAFTS. AND THEN THERE WAS A RUSHING
[01:14:32] EXPLOSION SOUND THAT ENTERED OUR OFFICE.
[01:14:34] I WASN'T SURE WHAT WAS HAPPENING. WE WERE VERY CONFUSED.
[01:14:37] THERE WAS SMOKE. THERE WAS EXPLOSION. WE COULDN'T EXIT THE LOCKED
[01:14:41] DOORS AND OUT OF THE SMOKE CAME
[01:14:43] A MAN I'LL NEVER FORGET HIS NAME. ED MCCABE.
[01:14:46] HE WAS A MAINTENANCE MAN, AND HE HAD THE KEYS TO UNLOCK THE DOOR
[01:14:49] TO ALLOW US TO ESCAPE FROM.
[01:14:51] I STEPPED OUT OF THE MALL ONTO
[01:14:54] VESEY STREET. AND AS SOON AS I HIT THE
[01:14:57] SIDEWALK, THERE WAS A LOUD BOOM. AND IT WAS THE SECOND PLANE GOING IN.
[01:15:01] AND I COULD HEAR THE DEBRIS COMING LIKE RAIN APPROACHING.
[01:15:05] IT STARTED TO HIT FLAMING DEBRIS IN FRONT OF ME AS I'M RUNNING.
[01:15:09] SO I GOT UNDER A CAR AND WAITED
[01:15:11] TILL IT GOT QUIETER AND I CRAWLED OUT.
[01:15:14] AND I REMEMBER SEEING SOMEONE AND ALSO CRAWLING OUT.
[01:15:17] AND HIS BACK WAS ON FIRE. I REMEMBER JUST KIND OF SAYING,
[01:15:21] OH MY GOD, YOU'RE ON FIRE. AND I HELPED TAP OUT THE FIRE. WE LOOKED AT EACH OTHER FOR A
[01:15:25] MOMENT AND THERE WAS JUST HORROR IN BOTH OF OUR FACES. AND I TURNED BACK AND LOOK AT
[01:15:28] THE TOWERS, AND THEY WERE BOTH ON FIRE.
[01:15:31] AND MY FIRST INSTINCT WAS JUST TO GET AWAY AS FAR AS POSSIBLE.
[01:15:35] SO I GOT ON THE TRAIN AND GOT OUT OF THERE. AND AS SOON AS I GOT IN THE
[01:15:39] BRONX, ALL THE TRAINS STOPPED.
[01:15:40] I WAS WORKING IN CONSTRUCTION IN
[01:15:43] TIMES SQUARE WHEN THE PLANES
[01:15:45] STRUCK THE BUILDINGS.
[01:15:47] I ENDED UP GOING IN LATER THAT
[01:15:49] NIGHT, AND I'VE NEVER BEEN TO WAR.
[01:15:52] YOU KNOW, I'VE NEVER SEEN WAR UP CLOSE.
[01:15:54] BUT IF I WAS TO IMAGINE IT, IT WAS SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
[01:15:57] THERE WAS DEBRIS FALLING FROM OTHER BUILDINGS.
[01:16:00] I HAD BEEN WILDING ABOUT 15 YEARS AT THAT POINT.
[01:16:04] SO I GOT ON A TORCH AND I STARTED CUTTING. IT WAS VERY DISORIENTING.
[01:16:08] EVERYTHING WAS GRAY. ALL OF THE STREET SIGNS WERE COVERED UP. YOU COULDN'T TELL WHERE YOU WERE.
[01:16:12] AND I KNEW THE AREA. WATCH THE RIGHT SIDE OF YOUR SCREEN OR THEY WERE PLAYING ON
[01:16:16] THE TV WAS A RIP OUT OF THE PLANES HITTING.
[01:16:18] AND I SAID, I CAN'T STAY HOME ANYMORE. I CALLED MY COMPANY AND THEY PUT
[01:16:24] ME THERE. BY THAT FRIDAY. I WAS THERE ON SITE.
[01:16:26] I WAS STATIONED AT BUILDING SEVEN AT THE REMOVALS AND RAFE WAS WORKING FOR US.
[01:16:32] SUB-COUNTY ACTOR THAT WAS DOING THE ACTUAL DEMOLITION WORK.
[01:16:35] WE MET ON SITE.
[01:16:37] SHE WOULD CHECK THE SIGNATURES AND NAMES AND PEOPLE WOULD COME
[01:16:41] IN AND OUT. AND SO WHEN I WENT TO SIGN IN, I
[01:16:43] WROTE ON A PIECE OF PAPER, YOU KNOW, WOULD YOU HAVE LUNCH?
[01:16:49] AND WE WENT OUT TO LUNCH.
[01:16:52] I THINK MOST PEOPLE ARE SURPRISED. THEY'VE NEVER HEARD ABOUT A LOVE
[01:16:55] STORY COMING OUT FROM SUCH A
[01:16:57] TERRIBLE SITUATION.
[01:16:59] I THINK ME PERSONALLY, AFTER
[01:17:01] GOING THROUGH ESCAPING ON 911,
[01:17:04] IT WAS HARD TO TALK TO ANYONE ELSE.
[01:17:07] FOR ANYONE ELSE TO UNDERSTAND WHAT WE WERE GOING THROUGH. WE DIDN'T GET MARRIED TILL ABOUT
[01:17:11] 11 YEARS LATER, OFFICIALLY, BUT WE WERE TOGETHER.
[01:17:15] YEAH, FROM RIGHT. FROM RIGHT THEN.
[01:17:18] NOW OUR FAMILY IS THAT WE HAVE TWO KIDS.
[01:17:22] GROUND ZERO IS A BIG PART. I THINK, OF OUR HISTORY AND OF
[01:17:25] OUR LIFE. IF WE WANT TO TALK ABOUT IT,
[01:17:29] IT'S VERY EASY, EASIER FOR US TO
[01:17:31] IDENTIFY WITH EACH OTHER WHEN WE TALK ABOUT IT AND THE EXPERIENCES WE HAD.
[01:17:35] YOU KNOW, I MEAN, I'M GRATEFUL
[01:17:37] TO GOD THAT WE'RE STILL HEALTHY.
[01:17:40] I MEAN, SO MANY OF OUR COWORKERS HAVE NOT MADE IT 25 YEARS FROM
[01:17:44] WORKING ON SITE.
[01:17:46] SO I'M DEFINITELY GRATEFUL THAT
[01:17:48] WE'RE STILL HERE AND WE'RE STILL HEALTHY AND WE'RE STILL
[01:17:52] TOGETHER. SO THERE'S A LOT OF THINGS TO BE GRATEFUL FOR.
[01:17:55] 25 YEARS