CURRENTTIME — broadcast
20260806 163000 UTC
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[00:00:00] strange overtones and connotations,
[00:00:03] an authoritative businessman, and so
[00:00:06] on, but Ghassan has really been involved in antiquity for many
[00:00:09] decades, and he wrote a very
[00:00:13] interesting column about Odysseus. Well,
[00:00:16] I'm just maybe because of this,
[00:00:20] referring to this column on RFI, Radio
[00:00:23] Franceis International, how
[00:00:26] truly can Helen be black
[00:00:30] or white, why is it so, why did black
[00:00:33] Helen captivate our compatriots so much?
[00:00:37] In fact, different people for different reasons
[00:00:40] might have been captivated by it. I want to make a small correction
[00:00:44] to Jan Levchenko's words,
[00:00:48] the thing is that I quoted
[00:00:52] a poem, an inscription, a Pompeian
[00:00:55] inscription from Latin, translated by
[00:00:58] Fyodor Alexandrovich Petrovsky.
[00:03:00] fallen victim to her son, that
[00:03:02] she, uh, her role is played by the same
[00:03:05] actress, they were hooked on Helen because
[00:03:09] how can this beautiful,
[00:03:12] beautiful,
[00:03:14] Helen be, be black,
[00:03:17] so there's a moment here, that is, people simply couldn't
[00:03:21] restrain themselves and in some way displayed their residual racism
[00:03:24] in this way, in the film, the
[00:03:28] skin color of the heroines
[00:03:31] has only an aesthetic
[00:03:35] function, a way, so to speak,
[00:03:38] to separate them, including from Penelope, because Penelope is such,
[00:03:42] as it were, the embodiment
[00:03:46] of virtues, in
[00:03:49] relation to Helen and Clytemnestra, it all looks
[00:03:52] different, they are a bit, they are a bit
[00:04:30] Well, there is such a truly amazing moment here, it
[00:04:34] is connected with the fact, as it seems to me, this is only
[00:04:38] a hypothesis, it is connected with the fact that for
[00:04:41] many people, well, even for myself,
[00:04:45] yes,
[00:04:47] what is happening
[00:04:49] in the so-called political reality is so
[00:04:53] phantasmagorical, so unbelievable,
[00:04:56] implausible, and I just don't want to be in this world.
[00:05:01] In this world, where, yes, Russia attacked Ukraine,
[00:05:04] is waging an extermination war, insane,
[00:05:07] absolutely,
[00:05:10] in this world happening.
[00:05:42] adaptation, a new adaptation of Odysseus, they attacked
[00:05:46] it as something authentic,
[00:05:49] they argue about it as something authentic,
[00:05:52] that is, from the point of
[00:05:56] view of history, cultural theory, it is a wonderful, amazing
[00:05:59] event, and it can
[00:06:02] be compared, with what else,
[00:06:05] about this Roman Ingarden
[00:06:08] once wrote, an aesthetician, philosopher, student.
[00:06:12] He spoke about a surprising circumstance:
[00:06:16] Renaissance
[00:06:19] artists, whom Jan Levchenko mentioned in
[00:06:22] the comment, painted, as is known, wonderful
[00:06:26] portraits, and the ordinary
[00:06:29] viewer, looking at these portraits, thinks to himself, they
[00:06:32] are incredibly similar to
[00:06:36] the original, none of us have seen the originals, these people
[00:06:39] have long since decayed, so to speak, their bones have decayed. But
[00:06:43] the portrait looks incredibly
[00:06:45] authentic, this
[00:06:49] property
[00:06:51] of human consciousness, especially, apparently, in such crisis historical
[00:06:55] moments, something that
[00:06:59] once in childhood or once in youth at
[00:07:02] school sank into
[00:07:05] the soul, remained in memory,
[00:07:07] is perceived as genuinely
[00:07:09] real,
[00:07:11] while the reality... in which this person feels
[00:07:15] like a loser or is simply dissatisfied
[00:07:18] with this reality, this reality seems to him a fiction,
[00:07:21] an illusion, this circumstance, it
[00:07:25] seems to me,
[00:07:28] determines such mass interest, the desire
[00:07:31] to watch it, and I am speaking, of course, not about
[00:07:34] people directly involved in
[00:07:37] the tragedy that is happening now in
[00:07:41] about people who... are still
[00:07:43] one step, somehow two
[00:07:46] steps, two borders removed from it,
[00:07:50] are, as it were, near, but not quite
[00:07:53] near, I am now in Germany, you are in
[00:07:57] the Czech Republic and we
[00:08:01] simply have the privilege to reflect,
[00:08:04] to reason, to go to the cinema,
[00:08:07] a privilege that our friends, acquaintances
[00:08:11] might not have. Here
[00:08:15] it's very interesting, the presence of war, it is in our lives in this
[00:08:19] film, I'm interested in discussing such a
[00:08:22] reinterpretation of war, just now, from your point
[00:08:26] of view, yes, as a specialist in antiquity, in epic, in
[00:08:29] myth, this modern reading,
[00:08:32] yes, for the ancients,
[00:08:35] war was not a moral problem as
[00:08:39] such, it was a natural state, yes, it was...
[00:09:01] as evil, certainly, but the main thing,
[00:09:03] this is clearly presented in the myth of Odysseus,
[00:09:07] the thing is that
[00:09:09] Odysseus is helped by...
[00:09:13] Athena, despite the fact that she knows he is
[00:09:16] cunning, he often
[00:09:18] deceives,
[00:09:21] because in fact his real father was Sisyphus, this is also
[00:09:25] a separate story, very
[00:09:27] interesting, but
[00:09:29] Odysseus doesn't
[00:09:32] often,
[00:09:34] in general, sin, not giving
[00:09:37] burial to his warriors,
[00:09:40] violating what...
[00:10:12] the gods turn away from man, that is, even living
[00:10:16] by the laws of war, killing your
[00:10:19] enemy, you must observe some
[00:10:23] rules, this is one.
[00:10:55] to man, such an aestheticization of war
[00:10:58] is present, of course, but it is present not only in
[00:11:01] antiquity, war is evil,
[00:11:04] an inevitable evil that accompanies
[00:11:07] man, and the only
[00:11:10] demand of such a moral nature that
[00:11:14] both Homer and
[00:11:17] the tragedians put forward,
[00:11:20] is to observe
[00:11:22] some rules, this
[00:11:26] is, for example, the need to allow
[00:11:29] the burial of a hero, yes, these are the rights
[00:11:33] of the dead, yes, the dead are endowed with rights, they
[00:11:37] are endowed with a certain dignity,
[00:11:39] and depriving them of this dignity is not allowed, so
[00:11:43] in this sense,
[00:11:46] antiquity
[00:11:50] is not so brutal
[00:11:52] as one might think. Well?
[00:12:48] about politics, about the political science of the Odyssey,
[00:12:51] because among other things, it, as I see it, is
[00:12:55] a story about the origin of power, a story about the origin of
[00:12:58] the state, yes, it's a story about
[00:13:02] a certain assertion of sovereignty, yes, sovereign
[00:13:05] right, the return of Odysseus to Ithaca,
[00:13:08] the restoration
[00:13:10] of his power, traditional power, including the refutation of Zeus's
[00:13:14] law, from this point of view we can read
[00:13:17] the Odyssey as
[00:13:20] a political statement, as a statement about the origin of
[00:13:39] the founder of sociology, has several interesting passages about
[00:13:43] how, strictly speaking, the re-establishment
[00:13:46] of social order always happens when young men return
[00:13:50] from war or a campaign, right? That is, some
[00:13:53] kind of. Uh, well, terminologically,
[00:13:57] a small social group emerges, literally 10 people,
[00:14:00] 15 people, right? They develop a very strong
[00:14:03] social bond with each other, then they
[00:14:06] fall out of the social order, that is, they go to raid someone or to fight
[00:14:10] with someone, so to speak, either on a raid or to repel a raid,
[00:14:13] and after that they return and
[00:14:16] become, as it were, a very large, incorrect, and
[00:14:20] well-noticed part of the correct whole, and
[00:14:24] Weber generally... concludes that such things, both
[00:14:27] Athenian democracy and German fellowships,
[00:14:30] rooted in what can be called дружины (armed retinue) in Russian,
[00:14:34] yes, yes, all of this is, strictly speaking, associations of veterans, yes, all
[00:14:38] these are those very small male groups, small male
[00:14:41] collectives, which rallied, lost someone,
[00:14:44] returned and did not accept the social order they
[00:14:48] had before they were ripped out, as it were, of this social order,
[00:14:51] they began to change it.
[00:15:07] 11th, yes, so there are two big wars,
[00:15:11] indeed many veterans, there are over a million
[00:15:14] people, and this is well reflected in mass
[00:15:17] culture, and mass culture in this regard provides
[00:15:21] a fork, it says either...
[00:15:37] cannot live, they are unrehabilitatable,
[00:15:40] yes, well, for example, in American cinema, about
[00:15:43] the Vietnam War, strictly speaking, they usually said so,
[00:15:47] and the change, the significant change, that happened, which, by the way, the Odyssey
[00:15:51] reflects very well, Nolan's Odyssey, is connected with the fact
[00:15:55] that there is no order at home,
[00:15:57] returning from war, being infected, yes, with this
[00:16:00] virus, that you must perceive
[00:16:04] the person with whom you were connected by the situation as an enemy.
[00:16:07] You actually have to kill him, yes, what Homer
[00:16:11] , so to speak, says that Homer, in fact,
[00:16:14] describes this situation of agon, it turns out that this agon,
[00:16:17] strictly speaking, exists in the social order exactly the same way, yes, that is, it is at home,
[00:16:21] you can't, you can't
[00:16:51] if he wants to get this social order, then yes, Sergey, absolutely
[00:16:55] right, he must establish this social order anew,
[00:16:58] yes, he must, as it were, society, having returned from the war, establish it as
[00:17:02] if from himself, and he must do this through
[00:17:55] movies, well, actually, the whole Stone universe, the key
[00:17:59] hero there is actually a veteran returned from the war, Casey Dutton, yes, that
[00:18:03] is, the son of the hero Kevin Costner. The second branch
[00:18:06] says that no, dude, no,
[00:18:09] even if you thought there was some order at home, when you return from
[00:18:13] the war, you'll realize that there isn't really any there, there's the same
[00:18:16] violence, yes, and if you want to achieve this order, you must
[00:18:19] establish it, this is very interesting, then, then it's actually
[00:18:23] a conversation about war, yes, then it's a conversation about how war
[00:18:27] is a generative form, that is, it's not just,
[00:18:30] it's as if, being a destructive form, because war is the antithesis of social order, that is,
[00:18:34] where there is war, there is no. the orgy of violence, which
[00:18:55] ends, yes, it would seem, a fairy-tale journey, the hero overcomes trials, yes, at the end peace should reign, yes, he
[00:18:58] comes home, returns to Ithaca, he returns to
[00:19:02] establish this orgy of violence, yes, and...
[00:19:05] the killing of all the guests,
[00:20:07] yes, the slaughter, the slaughter, the slaughter at the feast, that's
[00:20:11] where this is amazing, how this
[00:20:15] chain of violence goes through this film, and maybe
[00:20:19] that's why it also leaves such a very heavy, powerful
[00:20:22] impression, in fact, his son becomes
[00:20:25] a man only at that moment, not when he
[00:20:28] tries to string his father's bow, not when he goes to look for his father, yes,
[00:20:32] when he talks to Menelaus and so on with the disfigured, apparently,
[00:20:36] by Menelaus, Helen, no, his son
[00:20:39] becomes a man only when he kills one of the suitors and throws a spear to his
[00:20:43] father, if you actually watch this scene, then
[00:20:47] in this scene we see that...
[00:20:50] the threshold that the boy could not cross throughout
[00:20:54] the entire picture, he crosses only at the very end, when he takes
[00:20:57] a life, I wanted to ask two things, so to speak, naturally from your reasoning,
[00:21:01] two questions, the first one that I didn't even expect, but which
[00:21:05] arose during this broadcast, because Anton Dolin also said that
[00:21:09] someone wrote a comment that Odysseus is a hero of the SVO, a veteran of the SVO
[00:21:13] returned, and what do
[00:21:15] you think, veterans of the SVO or generally this
[00:21:18] post-war?
[00:22:24] For example, in this social
[00:22:28] order, it was not customary to kill representatives of the elite, they could not kill each other, this was a very important move,
[00:22:31] such a, uh, move, which, well, that is,
[00:22:35] only how to find these endless positions, yes, there
[00:22:38] for Shelepin, for Semichastny, what Brezhnev
[00:22:41] did, yes, to
[00:22:44] remove someone from power, to put them in charge of the All-Union Central Council of Trade Unions, or the Union
[00:22:47] of Writers, the Union of Philatelists. Uh,
[00:22:50] this is, of course, this is, of course, a veteran's story, yes, that is, it's the story
[00:22:53] of people who went through the war, who decided that they shouldn't kill each other
[00:22:57] anymore,
[00:22:59] not to repress the family, also of the exiled
[00:23:02] new children, not to touch the wife, not to touch the children, yes, that is,
[00:23:06] this is, this is important, but at the same time there were other things, for example,
[00:23:09] related to public consensus regarding the fact that
[00:23:12] disabled people should not exist in peaceful
[00:23:16] life, yes, that is, all these 101 km from...
[00:23:20] let's get rid of beggars, yes, there and so on and so on and so on, that
[00:23:23] is, here your favorite plot about biopolitics, it also plays
[00:23:27] yes social hygiene, yes, one thing is the survivors who are
[00:23:30] whole, and another thing is the survivors who are
[00:23:33] crippled, so the survivors who are whole, establishing a new
[00:23:37] social order, they prefer to forget about the crippled survivors,
[00:23:40] they prefer not to see them, yes, they would like them
[00:23:43] to simply drink somewhere on the outskirts of Moscow, beyond the
[00:23:47] hundred-kilometer zone, slowly. connection in a small
[00:24:50] group, yes, the only true, yes, the only
[00:24:53] order that a person on the front line has, is relationships with people from their unit,
[00:24:56] yes, their squad, that's what Soviet cinema
[00:25:00] showed, that strictly speaking, no, it doesn't work at all, yes, large structures
[00:25:03] win, you won't be able to build
[00:25:06] a brave new world after the war, in which, for example, your
[00:25:09] honest relationship with each other, with those you fought with, will
[00:25:13] become the core of any social relationship,
[00:25:16] yes, it doesn't work. But
[00:25:21] of course, I would say that such
[00:25:24] a deep scar on any social order, such a number
[00:25:27] of foreign bodies, and you see, Nolan shows us
[00:25:31] one simple thing, he says: the guy who returned from the war is a foreign
[00:25:35] body, no matter what's happening at home, chaos or
[00:25:38] order, he's still a foreign body, he can
[00:25:42] cause a slaughter
[00:25:44] in order, yes, this very large number of foreign
[00:25:48] bodies, it generally has...
[00:26:02] foreign bodies, or rather, these foreign bodies, having gone
[00:26:06] through the war, and we are talking, I think, about millions of people, eventually
[00:26:09] already now, it's hundreds of thousands in any case, it will already be much more than
[00:26:13] a million people, and they will need to somehow find,
[00:26:16] after all, peaceful life in some form, one would like to think,
[00:26:19] will come, and they will need to find their place in the new social
[00:26:23] order, and apparently this will become one of the main plots, yes, this
[00:26:26] return of Odysseus, I would say that this is a very big
[00:26:29] Afghan, we remember the Afghans with you. The beginning and middle
[00:26:33] of the nineties, we understand that these were people who
[00:26:37] traded their veteran status for the opportunity to trade
[00:26:40] alcohol, tobacco, protect someone and so on
[00:26:44] and so on, I think that but at the same time, we must understand that they played a big
[00:26:48] role in the formation of business in
[00:26:51] the early nineties, yes, in the destruction of old party
[00:26:54] structures, some Komsomol ones, yes, there
[00:26:57] they played a role, I would say that
[00:27:00] if they asked me to make... a forecast, putting on one
[00:27:03] side the so-called SVO, on
[00:27:07] the other Nolan's Odyssey, not Homer's, I can't say anything about Homer, I'm not
[00:27:11] sure if one can even talk about Homer, it's a difficult question, yes, I would say, guys, well,
[00:27:14] as it were, of course, if of course, that is, on one hand, these
[00:27:18] people will first increase chaos, and then they will try
[00:27:21] to build some order, that is, first a slaughter, and then
[00:28:02] laid for home, it was laid in vain, just like
[00:28:05] that pile of corpses that was laid for Agamemnon's ambitions
[00:28:09] in Troy, yes, that is, you understand, so maybe Nolan wants
[00:28:12] to say this, yes, what does he want to say, guys, it doesn't matter, yes, that is, you
[00:28:16] laid a pile of corpses there,
[00:28:20] fled, you laid a pile of corpses here, fled, well, with your wife, yes, that is,
[00:28:23] profit, you sort of fled with your family and son, yes, but the meaning is the same,
[00:28:27] you lay a pile of corpses, you need