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20260915 083000 UTC
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[00:00:00] Yes, it's the same thing, that one follows very closely, presumably has
[00:00:04] contacts with other countries to
[00:00:07] inform about what has happened, uh, and see and
[00:00:11] hear how they view the situation, and then the
[00:00:15] Russian ambassador will, as said, go to
[00:00:18] a meeting at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, this typically takes place with
[00:00:21] the Permanent Secretary of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, where it is made
[00:00:24] clear that this is completely
[00:00:27] unacceptable, uh. And then
[00:00:30] one probably also considers if there are other things one
[00:00:33] should do, anything else one can do.
[00:00:37] And Christine, what kind of signal is it to ask the Russian
[00:00:41] ambassador to come for a
[00:00:44] the Russians are provocative, they are meeting?
[00:00:46] Well, it's a diplomatic
[00:00:49] step, uh, that one can use. There is such a
[00:00:52] diplomatic ladder, you can also start
[00:00:55] expelling diplomats, you can, if it's the really big
[00:00:59] scale, break off diplomatic relations with
[00:01:02] a country, and this, this is still quite low
[00:01:06] on the scale,
[00:01:09] but it's a diplomatic way to make it clear that
[00:01:12] this is unacceptable, that
[00:01:15] uh, that one is dissatisfied with what is happening, uh, so it's, it's
[00:01:19] such - one of the lower steps in the
[00:01:22] diplomatic handbook, and it's not something you can send an
[00:01:25] answer key for this, but still, some people probably
[00:01:29] think:... Hmm, where, where on the scale are we with
[00:01:33] such a conversation? Who, uh, who decides
[00:01:39] what the government is doing right here is that? So, it's usually always
[00:01:43] the Permanent Secretary of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs who
[00:01:46] handles these types of conversations, it's
[00:01:49] not, it's not Lykke herself, it's not the Foreign Minister, it's at
[00:01:52] an official level, but of course the
[00:01:55] highest official in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, who
[00:01:59] normally conducts these types of
[00:02:02] conversations, uh, and it, it is, yes, it is such
[00:02:06] a diplomatic step, which is a
[00:02:09] marking that Denmark will not tolerate
[00:02:13] this, and the situation as the government sees it
[00:02:17] with Russia is that they are constantly
[00:02:20] trying to provoke NATO
[00:02:23] countries, that there are many
[00:02:26] hybrid attacks, not all of them we hear
[00:02:30] about, not all of them succeed, but that there
[00:02:33] is a constant
[00:02:36] provocation from
[00:02:39] say, their finger on the trigger, I mean, they are Russia, which they are now trying to respond to in this
[00:02:41] way, and how serious a political situation is
[00:02:44] that?
[00:02:48] Well, I think at least the government and many of
[00:02:52] the parties in parliament see the whole situation with the
[00:02:55] way Russia is acting now as very serious
[00:02:59] and... potentially even more dangerous than what we are experiencing
[00:03:03] now. You can also hear from the parties that there is
[00:03:07] very, very strong support for the government and for the way
[00:03:10] the government is acting, and in such foreign policy
[00:03:14] situations, security policy situations, it is usually
[00:03:18] a sign that people take it very seriously, so
[00:03:21] seriously that the parties do not feel the urge to make
[00:03:25] politics out of this. Yes, we have also heard from the various
[00:03:29] politicians - all morning, all
[00:03:32] forenoon, that they support the government's line.
[00:03:35] Christine, this is also a balancing act for
[00:03:38] politicians, because they have to deal with the seriousness, which we also hear from
[00:03:42] experts, as it is, but still,
[00:03:46] one should not talk the population into
[00:03:49] worry, what kind
[00:03:50] of balancing act is that?
[00:03:54] Well, it's difficult with everything that's happening right
[00:03:57] now, that you, you want
[00:04:01] Danes to be aware of how serious the situation
[00:04:04] is, also to ensure continued
[00:04:07] support for the very massive aid to
[00:04:10] Ukraine, which the government and many parties
[00:04:14] see as a shield against
[00:04:17] Russia, that one starts, uh, meaning if
[00:04:21] Russia wins, it goes on, and now the politicians are coming
[00:04:25] out, we'll hurry over to them, won't we, Christine, let's see if we
[00:04:28] can get one of them to talk. Were you less worried than when you went in? No,
[00:04:32] the situation is, uh, just as serious as it has been all
[00:04:36] along, uh, it's clearly an
[00:04:39] escalation from the Russian side, but it doesn't end there,
[00:04:43] that the way we have handled it from a military
[00:04:46] professional point of view, we are very confident, and you are also confident in the way the Danish helicopter acted, yes, so it is
[00:04:50] purely a Russian provocation, this
[00:04:53] is, so my own analysis is that Russia is currently in the process
[00:04:57] of moving on what is called normally. And that
[00:05:00] means that they strive for
[00:05:04] NATO countries to start lowering
[00:05:06] their guard when aggression occurs, it is then
[00:05:10] simply important that we are ready. And we have close cooperation
[00:05:13] continuously both in the Nordic countries, in Europe and of course also in NATO, but you are
[00:05:17] not more confident after you came out of this, so the seriousness is the
[00:05:21] same, and what this briefing was about was solely a
[00:05:24] military professional briefing, and where did it take place, the
[00:05:28] incident itself? Well, I have nothing substantive to
[00:05:31] add.
[00:05:33] How, in relation to whether it was a
[00:05:37] poorly manned crew, or whether it was a deliberate action from Russia's side, that is,
[00:05:41] Putin's side? Yes, so purely military professional
[00:05:44] assessments, I have nothing to contribute
[00:05:48] with. We have spoken with an expert who says that it is clear that
[00:05:51] the Russians react when the Danes provoke by
[00:05:55] sending a helicopter to take pictures. What do you think about that?
[00:05:58] Well, it's completely normal that we, uh, have
[00:06:02] helicopters out and photograph military
[00:06:05] vessels, and the helicopter is allowed to be there, the Russian vessel is allowed to be
[00:06:09] there, but it cannot be perceived as a provocation to fly over and
[00:06:13] take pictures of a frigate, no, what happened here is an aggression, it's completely
[00:06:17] normal, also for that particular vessel, that
[00:06:19] we, uh, encounter it and photograph it, so
[00:06:23] it is a, uh, a Russian escalation that one
[00:06:27] actually shoots at a military helicopter, but they
[00:06:31] don't shoot, they just react, meaning they send up some
[00:06:33] warning flares, couldn't it be
[00:06:36] like that?
[00:06:39] Inger Støjberg, Inger Støjberg, you have just been to a
[00:06:42] military professional assessment or briefing here in the Ministry of Defense, are you
[00:06:46] less confident than when you, or more confident than when you went in? I feel exactly
[00:06:50] the same as when I went in, that I think the government is acting completely correctly in this
[00:06:54] matter, uh, and that it simply proves
[00:06:57] that we must continue to arm, it proves
[00:07:01] that we must stand together in Parliament, and there must not be a
[00:07:05] piece of paper to put between
[00:07:07] the parties in Parliament when it comes to our
[00:07:11] rejection of Russia, uh, and that it also
[00:07:15] means that we must continue to support Ukraine, because
[00:07:19] Ukraine's fight for freedom is also our fight for freedom, but is it a viable
[00:07:23] path we are on right now, when we see these Russian provocations or attacks again and
[00:07:26] again? Excuse me, is it a viable path we are
[00:07:29] on, I mean, now we see a Russian provocation again, and it
[00:07:33] is becoming, there are more and more of them, we see them all over Europe, how can it be the
[00:07:37] right way to go, that we should just summon an ambassador in Ny? Yes, but it
[00:07:41] is not just summoning an ambassador, it is
[00:07:45] one of the tools in the toolbox,
[00:07:49] and it gives the opportunity that if the situation becomes
[00:07:52] more serious, then there are also more
[00:07:56] tools in the toolbox, so I believe that it is completely proportionate and completely
[00:08:00] correct what the government is doing, yes, other sanctions could, or other things in reverse,
[00:08:04] could be sanctions, is that what you see being used next? Well,
[00:08:07] that's not where we are with this incident,
[00:08:11] but, uh, but one cannot say that in the future, I mean, the only thing we can
[00:08:15] say with certainty is that the Russians are aggressive, and they
[00:08:19] are also constantly becoming more aggressive, and that they are always
[00:08:22] trying to see where the limit is before
[00:08:25] NATO reacts uh,
[00:08:28] harder than this, so but I think it's the absolutely
[00:08:32] right way the government has handled this case. Yesterday it was a signal flare that
[00:08:36] was sent towards a Danish
[00:08:38] military helicopter,
[00:08:41] do you see it as a provocation or do you see it as an
[00:08:43] attack? I see it as a
[00:08:47] provocation in reality,
[00:08:50] and what we can see with the Russians at the moment is
[00:08:54] that they are becoming more and more intrusive, uh, we saw it
[00:08:57] here a few days ago, also very close to the
[00:09:01] Polish border, uh, and there have also
[00:09:04] been other similar incidents elsewhere,
[00:09:08] uh, so there is no doubt that the Russians
[00:09:12] are... uh, I mean, they are aggressive and they are
[00:09:15] testing us, and that's also why, when we are tested by
[00:09:19] an aggressive party, uh, and a
[00:09:22] malicious party like Russia, well, then we must also stand together, and that's
[00:09:26] of course also why I fully and completely support the government in this. You've said a lot of
[00:09:30] times that we must stand together, and stand together with the government in this, is it also
[00:09:33] to send a signal to the Danes that they shouldn't be worried about this?
[00:09:37] Well, that's what it is, too, I mean, but now it's also
[00:09:40] addressed to the parliamentary parties, that it is absolutely crucial
[00:09:44] that there is no, that there are no questions raised about
[00:09:47] our distancing from the
[00:09:50] Russians. What did you learn about the incident in there
[00:09:54] today? For good reason, I cannot say anything about what we learned about the incident, but
[00:09:58] I think we got an excellent briefing about it, and I
[00:10:02] am fully satisfied with what the government has presented. We have
[00:10:05] spoken with an expert on TV2 who says that it is clear, yes, and Alexandersen, whom
[00:10:09] we are now going to hear from, probably can't go into more detail. But let's just
[00:10:13] hear how he perceived
[00:10:15] the briefing. Alexandersen, what kind of
[00:10:18] briefing was this? It was a briefing about the incident that happened
[00:10:22] yesterday, where a uh. Fenec
[00:10:26] uhm helicopter, uh, I can also
[00:10:28] do this, what came out of this briefing for you? I came out of the briefing, we
[00:10:32] were informed that a Russian
[00:10:35] frigate had fired signal flares at a
[00:10:38] helicopter, and if they had hit, the crew might have been in
[00:10:42] danger onboard the helicopter, and that is of course not acceptable, it is being
[00:10:45] communicated, and we will strengthen surveillance, we
[00:10:49] will not back down, that is an important signal, and it is also important to
[00:10:52] say that we are not activating article four and five.
[00:10:56] "And in the Danish People's Party, we agree with the government not to do that, and why
[00:10:59] is that? Because we
[00:11:02] are, it's too violent
[00:11:06] a reaction, but
[00:11:09] aggressive, and we don't know if the
[00:11:13] captain overreacted, or if it's part of a larger
[00:11:16] aggression from Russia, we don't know. Is it
[00:11:20] your impression that the Danish helicopter did what it was supposed to do, I mean
[00:11:24] can this?" "No, the Danish helicopter has done what it
[00:11:28] always does, and what we always do, and what is done internationally, when a
[00:11:31] vessel arrives, one monitors it. In this case,
[00:11:35] they were closer due to technology, it's completely
[00:11:38] common maritime law, so it is the Russians who overreacted, and they will be
[00:11:42] told that by the government. The last
[00:11:45] question, can't we just keep talking, I mean, shouldn't there be a
[00:11:49] harsher reaction at some point towards a Russia that goes further and further? Yes, but now
[00:11:53] you're talking about a harsh reaction.
[00:11:55] "There will also be a reaction, the Russian ambassador will be
[00:11:58] summoned, and we will strengthen surveillance, we will
[00:12:02] not back down, and that is an important signal to send, but we
[00:12:06] should of course not go to war with
[00:12:08] the Russians because of some signal flares sent up by an aggressive
[00:12:12] Russian frigate captain, that's not acceptable, and they will be told that, and now we are strengthening
[00:12:16] surveillance.
[00:12:18] And we shall hear from Markus Knutt from the Conservative People's Party,
[00:12:21] Defense Spokesperson,
[00:12:24] Markus Knutt. A briefing that you were keen on when you went in, what came out of
[00:12:27] it? Well, the most important thing for me was to express support for the
[00:12:31] government's line regarding summoning the Russian ambassador, but also that
[00:12:35] what we have requested, that on the one hand, article four or five is not activated,
[00:12:38] but that in addition to that, a conversation is held
[00:12:42] with our NATO allies, consult them, inform them,
[00:12:46] uh, so that this is not a unique Danish
[00:12:49] event, but something that should be seen in a larger
[00:12:53] context with the activities that have, among other things, happened in Germany at the Polish
[00:12:56] border and so on, but isn't that what article 4 is about? No, article 4, that's where you
[00:13:00] formally summon the member states to uh, to a
[00:13:03] consultation, and why is that too much? We believe we are not
[00:13:07] there yet, and it is also important for us to maintain calm and not escalate towards
[00:13:10] the Russians, but that parallel to that, we have informal
[00:13:14] conversations with our NATO allies - both to
[00:13:17] express their support, but
[00:13:21] also to have a dialogue about what we do
[00:13:24] together, I think that's the right level, of course there are many things you can't say, which we probably learned in there,
[00:13:28] what more can you say about what you learned about the Danish reaction to this,
[00:13:31] also in defense terms? Well, I think the Danish reaction, also from
[00:13:35] the defense side, has been the right one, you don't escalate
[00:13:38] unnecessarily, you also protect our soldiers who are out there, that is very, very
[00:13:42] important, so I think the defense has acted completely correctly here, uh,
[00:13:45] and what I have, as I said, requested, that we also have an informal dialogue with our
[00:13:49] partners without activating Article 4, I can then learn
[00:13:52] this morning from the minister that they are also doing that. What is your
[00:13:56] impression of what caused this situation to arise? I mean, is it
[00:14:00] a Russian, a Russian ship that shoots
[00:14:03] unprovoked, is it a Danish helicopter that does something it shouldn't? I mean, what is your impression of what really
[00:14:07] happened here? My impression is that the Danish defense, the Danish
[00:14:10] helicopter acted completely according to the international guidelines and according to
[00:14:14] the custom and routine that has been in place for many years in
[00:14:17] the area, but that the Russians, for one reason or another, choose to
[00:14:21] escalate very, very aggressively, and it is difficult not to also
[00:14:25] see it in the light of the incidents that have occurred at the Polish-Ukrainian border with
[00:14:28] drone attacks against trains, the incidents that have occurred in Leipzig in Germany, but that
[00:14:32] is of course just an observation I can make, now you have become a little wiser here in
[00:14:35] the ministry, do you see this as an attack from the Russian side? It is at least
[00:14:39] a very, very strong provocation, and these
[00:14:42] flares could very easily have hit this helicopter, which, as I
[00:14:46] understand it, was flying with the door open, and to get such a huge
[00:14:49] fireball inside, it could have resulted in fatalities, so
[00:14:52] it - it's hard not to see this as a very, very.
[00:14:57] Why won't you call it an attack? They're shooting fireballs through the air at a Danish
[00:15:00] helicopter? I don't think I'm the right person to say whether it's
[00:15:04] an escalation or an attack, I mean, this is by its very
[00:15:08] nature a distress flare used to signal that a ship is
[00:15:11] in distress at sea. But
[00:15:14] if it hits a target, it can do a lot of damage, and that's why it's
[00:15:18] serious. Last question from my side here, how close is your impression that it was,
[00:15:21] I mean, we hear they shot at this helicopter, how close is your impression
[00:15:25] that they were to hitting it? Yes, I can't say how close they were to actually
[00:15:29] hitting it, but they were certainly close enough that it wasn't just a random shot
[00:15:33] in the air, I mean, the helicopter flew at a distance that it
[00:15:36] has flown many times before, this was
[00:15:40] a routine flight, and they were close enough to
[00:15:44] hit it that this is a very, very serious incident. Yes, that's what Markus Knutt said, and of course there are
[00:15:47] details that he doesn't tell
[00:15:51] about, and we hope to hear from Defense Chief Michael Hylgaard,
[00:15:55] and the Defense Minister, we are of course trying to catch them to learn
[00:15:59] more about these details. For Niels Fastrup, when you sit back and
[00:16:03] listen to the few details that the politicians come out with, what would you like
[00:16:06] to have an answer to? Well, it's clear, I mean, this question of how,
[00:16:10] what exactly happened in the situation, what kind of Russian ship was it, where exactly
[00:16:14] was it, and how did the Danish helicopter fly, or
[00:16:18] did it not, and then of course also, I mean, as also emerges
[00:16:21] here, have the Russians, the Russian naval ships, have they received a new
[00:16:25] order of conduct from their, from their supreme
[00:16:28] commander, their headquarters, stating that they must now escalate when these
[00:16:32] incidents occur, and for example use this, this distress
[00:16:36] signal flare. Step, I mean, if someone comes and wants to take pictures of
[00:16:39] them, is there a change in the picture out there? I think that will also be really interesting
[00:16:43] for, but is it something we can ever be
[00:16:46] 100% clear about if they
[00:16:49] have it? It is, it is something that some people have insight
[00:16:53] into, uh, and I mean, they get that kind of information, whether such
[00:16:56] new orders come to the Russian fleet, and then there is also, if it
[00:17:00] happens again, or if something even more violent happens next time, uh,
[00:17:04] that, that is also something I will certainly be following, or. And this in itself,
[00:17:08] and if there is a little more calm, even though the
[00:17:11] background, as I have also said earlier, is of course that the situation in
[00:17:14] the Baltic Sea, including in the Danish straits, is very tense at the
[00:17:18] moment. It was a military professional briefing,
[00:17:22] so I assume that Michael Hylgaard definitely
[00:17:25] spoke. What would you like to have an answer
[00:17:29] to? If you were at that briefing, Mads, what would you like to have an answer
[00:17:32] to? I would really like to know if there was anything at all in
[00:17:36] uh, so to speak, the operational pattern of both
[00:17:39] military units that stood out, meaning that was unusual. What could
[00:17:43] that be? For example, if the Danish helicopter came
[00:17:47] to fly a little closer than usual,
[00:17:50] uh, it doesn't sound like that from what we can hear
[00:17:54] the politicians say, uh, we hear at least
[00:17:57] some of them say, well, it happened exactly as
[00:18:01] usual, there was no, there was nothing that stood out, but
[00:18:03] still, uh, we also know in hindsight that...
[00:18:07] experiences from before, that the Russians, they sail around also in
[00:18:11] Danish waters, with, uh, I was almost about to
[00:18:16] vigilant, partly because of shadow fleets, but also because the Russians
[00:18:20] have learned the hard way that they can be attacked by drones, so to
[00:18:24] speak, anywhere, and we have also seen that they have fired
[00:18:27] warning shots at a buoy in the English Channel, so
[00:18:31] one knows that one should not get too close to Russian naval ships,
[00:18:35] has it happened here anyway by a far? Maybe there's no indication of it, but we're not
[00:18:39] completely clear yet, uh, completely
[00:18:42] clear, sorry, about the actions. Can we
[00:18:46] ever get that clarity, because now I'm thinking, is there simply
[00:18:50] video material, image material, just like a plane has a black
[00:18:53] box, can we in any way, uh, become clear about
[00:18:56] the specific incident?
[00:18:59] I mean, I would say, no, uh, maybe, we don't know, but
[00:19:03] given that it was a Fenec helicopter that was out, Fenec helicopters usually
[00:19:07] don't have permanently mounted video equipment
[00:19:11] or infrared cameras, uh, Seahawk
[00:19:14] helicopters, for example, do, some of the large rescue helicopters can also
[00:19:18] have that, it is equipment that records
[00:19:21] video, so you would typically be able to find video recordings of
[00:19:24] it, given that we hear the head of the air force say that they were sitting and taking
[00:19:28] pictures out of an open door, and given that I know that usually Fenec
[00:19:31] helicopters don't have permanently mounted equipment, it was probably
[00:19:35] a regular handheld
[00:19:37] camera, uhm, whether it was a video camera or a still camera,
[00:19:41] I don't know, but looking at the helicopter type, I don't think
[00:19:45] we should expect to get a video recording of this,
[00:19:49] and this is the Fenec helicopter we see
[00:19:52] pictures of here, this is from an exercise, it's archive, that's also why we
[00:19:56] always write it up in the corner there, so
[00:19:59] that one doesn't think that this is a direct picture or doesn't think that it is from
[00:20:03] the incident yesterday, the incident, which I still
[00:20:06] lack a clear answer to, whether it happened in the evening,
[00:20:10] when we actually got the message from the Defense Command, I believe it
[00:20:14] was, or whether it was in the afternoon, there is some doubt about that, I will certainly
[00:20:18] uh say so as soon as we know, the word "they"
[00:20:21] is constantly used, Niels Fastrup, so I assume there was
[00:20:25] more, of course there was more than one person in the helicopter, there was both someone to
[00:20:29] pilot, there was of course also someone to take pictures, do we know anything about how many are
[00:20:32] normally, uh, normally in such helicopters when they
[00:20:36] uh fly around? around and take pictures,
[00:20:39] I mean, that's exactly the kind of question we should probably ask my good colleague Mads Korser, who
[00:20:43] has a deeper military professional knowledge of
[00:20:46] that kind, I certainly don't know, maybe Mads knows. So
[00:20:50] normally there are two crew members, there's a
[00:20:53] pilot, and then there's an assisting pilot or a
[00:20:56] navigator, uhm, and then it can be
[00:20:58] configured in different ways, it could easily be that there was another
[00:21:02] observer in the back seat, maybe even two observers, when they
[00:21:06] when they fly out, I mean, uh, so they open the
[00:21:10] rear side door, as we can see there, someone sitting there waving, uh,
[00:21:13] you can open it like that, and then point a camera out, so I would say,
[00:21:17] roughly between two and four onboard. Normally, they can
[00:21:21] manage with two onboard, they can also profile into
[00:21:23] it. Niels, uh, or
[00:21:27] Mads, do you know what the other Nordic countries do, do they
[00:21:30] also have helicopters of that kind, where they simply, uh,
[00:21:34] yes, fly around and move into those pockets, as
[00:21:38] you also talked about before, meaning away from their own waters, but
[00:21:41] uh, the pockets between their own waters and
[00:21:45] international waters, do they operate in the same
[00:21:47] way?
[00:21:49] I would say, probably, I mean, we know that there is increased
[00:21:52] activity in the Baltic Sea, uh, we know
[00:21:56] that NATO has been engaged in, and still is,
[00:21:59] still, still is engaged in an operation called
[00:22:02] Baltic Sentry, also in the form of such fixed
[00:22:06] surveillance capabilities, they test some, some, some
[00:22:09] drone equipment, they also patrol the air,
[00:22:12] uh, naval ships patrol around, so there is heightened
[00:22:16] vigilance, it happens in different ways with different tools. And
[00:22:20] it can be ships, it can be planes, it can be helicopters, it can even be drones, I think
[00:22:23] we can venture to say that, yes, I mean, all
[00:22:27] the Scandinavian countries do it to some extent, whether it happens exactly
[00:22:31] in the same way, I mean, a
[00:22:34] helicopter out, taking images, we don't know that, but
[00:22:37] one wants to physically have a rope and visually look at what kind of ships they are,
[00:22:41] so one, one, one, uh, one doesn't trust
[00:22:44] radar images alone, one especially doesn't trust
[00:22:48] these various Marine traffic surveillance sites, because
[00:22:52] the Russians typically don't appear there. Niels, does one
[00:22:55] have reason to be surprised about such a Russian frigate that
[00:22:59] is located in international
[00:23:02] waters? It could be that they were just on their way from A to
[00:23:06] B? Well, one does, at least in this way, that,
[00:23:09] according to my information, the Russians have,
[00:23:13] I don't know exactly when they started,
[00:23:17] but within a few years or within a few months,
[00:23:20] they started a new naval operation in our
[00:23:23] nearby waters, which aims to patrol and
[00:23:27] deter Denmark and other European countries from boarding
[00:23:31] the shadow fleet tankers, and there they have divided, among other things, the Baltic Sea, also the
[00:23:34] Danish waters into so-called patrol zones, that is what
[00:23:38] the Russians have done, and in each of these patrol zones there is a
[00:23:41] Russian warship, more or less permanently, which
[00:23:45] has the task of deterring Sweden or Germany or Denmark
[00:23:48] or Great Britain or France from boarding these uh,
[00:23:52] Russian, uh, excuse me, Russian shadow fleet tankers, and this
[00:23:56] military operation that Russia is conducting now, such a
[00:23:59] naval operation, is something new, that is, and something
[00:24:03] unusual, and a form of escalation,
[00:24:06] uh, and I think, without being sure, I could imagine that this is the
[00:24:10] context in which this incident should be seen, and just to be
[00:24:14] completely clear, when you say shadow fleet, what does that cover,
[00:24:17] well, these are these uh, typically old uh
[00:24:21] tankers that Russia operates and that Russia uses
[00:24:25] to sell, sail oil out of through the Danish straits to
[00:24:29] the world market to finance, among other things, the war in Ukraine. See, now we have
[00:24:33] again been in the archive. We like
[00:24:35] that archive, of course, when there is something relevant. Now I can't sit and point out
[00:24:39] what this is, these are Russian frigates, but it is at least
[00:24:42] relevant archive material, so what are we to
[00:24:45] imagine when Russia has a, a shadow fleet
[00:24:49] in place? Well, it's because the EU and
[00:24:52] other countries have introduced sanctions on Russian oil trade and have tried to
[00:24:56] shut down Russia's ability to sell oil and make money in that
[00:24:59] way, so Russia has launched a huge operation, where
[00:25:03] they have, I don't know if they have purchased or otherwise acquired
[00:25:06] hundreds of old
[00:25:09] oil tankers, which they now operate from the Russian side through
[00:25:12] shell companies in a way that bypasses these sanctions from the European
[00:25:16] side, so there are always tankers sailing in and out of
[00:25:20] the Baltic Sea loaded with oil to the world market, and that is the
[00:25:24] way Russia earns a very, very large part of the money right now, which they use for
[00:25:28] the war in Ukraine, and that is, in turn, also, so Russia has a
[00:25:32] strategic interest in these ships being able to sail, and
[00:25:35] conversely, Europe and NATO are also trying to shut this down, so
[00:25:39] that generates a very, very tense situation in the Baltic Sea and also
[00:25:42] in Danish waters, and it could be something like what we see here,
[00:25:46] now we are not very close to it, but well. so it
[00:25:50] could be Niels, that was actually the question,
[00:25:53] Niels, it could be, yes, that, that, those are some,
[00:25:57] some, some tankers, as we see here, large, large
[00:26:01] tankers, I don't know, 200, 250 meters long, uh, typically a little
[00:26:04] older, that sail up through Storebælt almost daily, I would
[00:26:08] think, uh, that is, and which Russia wants to sail and which
[00:26:12] NATO, from the European side, wants to shut down, and that generates some tension,
[00:26:16] without me being able to say for sure that the incident yesterday is
[00:26:19] related to it, it is at least a context around what is happening
[00:26:22] now, we certainly can't say
[00:26:25] at all, now we go to Christiansborg to my good colleague Anja
[00:26:29] Westvald, because you have caught - is it conservative? Mona
[00:26:32] Jul,
[00:26:35] It's the conservative Mona Jul, what's happening here at Christiansborg is that
[00:26:38] the parties are going to group meetings, that's where you get the most
[00:26:42] up-to-date information about what's going on in Danish politics, and one must say,
[00:26:46] that the most important thing today is last night's incident, Mona
[00:26:49] Jul, uh, you have received a briefing, your defense spokesperson has received
[00:26:52] a briefing over at the Ministry of Defense, maybe you have too, what do you say about the way
[00:26:56] Denmark has reacted, have we been sharp enough by
[00:27:00] summoning the Russian ambassador for talks. Yes, I think
[00:27:04] it's a very serious situation, we see Russia trying to intimidate
[00:27:07] us, and we must not let that affect us in any way, but we
[00:27:11] also recognize that there is a pattern now,
[00:27:14] Leipzig Halle, uh, we had a
[00:27:17] plane over Litown recently that was supposed to shoot down a drone, we
[00:27:21] had the train between Ukraine and
[00:27:24] Poland, and now we see this with Flares, which
[00:27:28] are enormously dangerous, and shooting up, you can't be very
[00:27:31] precise, but it could of course have destroyed a helicopter
[00:27:35] and created a very, very serious situation,
[00:27:38] fortunately that didn't happen. I think
[00:27:42] to make sure to address it at the level that needs to be addressed in the
[00:27:46] first instance, and that is the Russian ambassador, who needs to have a
[00:27:49] really thorough talk with the Danish government, because we certainly cannot keep
[00:27:53] watching this. He has already been in talks several
[00:27:56] times at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs about various previous incidents. Is
[00:27:59] it good enough when one now sees something that resembles direct attacks from
[00:28:03] a military vessel on a military
[00:28:06] helicopter? Well, in this situation, that is exactly what
[00:28:09] is needed, but it is clear that we also have a clear expectation that there
[00:28:13] will be cooperation, a dialogue across NATO countries, it's good that we are
[00:28:17] members of NATO, it's good that we are members of the EU, so we have someone we
[00:28:20] can talk about this with, with whom we can stand together, and possibly also return
[00:28:24] together about it. Um, we have, as you
[00:28:28] say, seen a number of cases around Europe, and most recently here
[00:28:32] in Denmark, but isn't it time that NATO says,
[00:28:35] now we must activate some of these
[00:28:38] solidarity clauses we have, for example the one that says we must
[00:28:42] react collectively and significantly, not militarily, but in the form of collective
[00:28:46] protests, but there is no doubt that what we are trying to
[00:28:49] avoid, I imagine, is to avoid activating precisely some of these
[00:28:53] pacts, because then you also escalate the situation, and what is really important
[00:28:57] now is to hit it precisely, and I think the government is doing that here by
[00:29:00] bringing in the ambassador, but it's not like we should keep
[00:29:04] watching as we receive threats, and something very, very serious
[00:29:08] could actually have happened here, we cannot keep watching that. We are in full swing with an
[00:29:12] arms build-up in Denmark, buy, buy, buy, said the Prime Minister, we still
[00:29:15] lack a large number of purchases, for example at sea, do
[00:29:19] you think it's going too slowly with us getting started with our arms build-up?
[00:29:23] Yes, I think it is. I think everything has gone too slowly, there is
[00:29:26] no doubt that the intentions have been there. I think we stand together in the
[00:29:30] Danish Parliament, most of the parties fortunately, that we must arm
[00:29:34] Denmark, but there is also no doubt that patience is wearing
[00:29:38] thin from some of our sides. I usually say that there is
[00:29:42] nothing that anyone can propose that we don't want faster and more of, and that is precisely
[00:29:45] the situation with the Danish defense still. Is this something,
[00:29:49] do you think, that calls for accelerating and you, who are
[00:29:52] in the defense committee, pushing for some of this to be implemented
[00:29:56] faster, for example frigate purchases,
[00:29:59] well, you can't just buy a frigate unfortunately, I mean. it takes
[00:30:03] years, and therefore one must find out what else we need to
[00:30:06] do, but there is no doubt that the pressure that the Conservative People's Party
[00:30:10] is putting on this government, as we did on the previous one and the one before that and
[00:30:14] many years ago, is to strengthen the Danish defense, it is
[00:30:17] truly the eleventh hour, we need to gear up on that. Good, so
[00:30:21] when do you expect something concrete to happen,
[00:30:25] that means that next time we have such an incident, we will be
[00:30:28] perhaps better able to respond in some way instead.
[00:30:32] you can't attack a Russian frigate, but are we well
[00:30:35] enough equipped to react in the situation? Well, I
[00:30:39] think the Danish defense, with the means and resources available,
[00:30:43] has an understanding of what needs to happen, also in
[00:30:46] concrete situations, also this dangerous situation we have just
[00:30:49] experienced, so I am not worried about that, everyone knows what they need to
[00:30:53] do, but I am worried that the Russians will continue to
[00:30:56] make threats against us. That.