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20260808 230000 UTC
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[00:00:54] in the series of broadcasts, legal historian Petr Jarvilayt
[00:00:57] draws attention to
[00:02:00] the President of the Russian Federation, so, before the whole world, the world
[00:02:03] is watching, Boris Yeltsin takes the oath of president, he
[00:02:07] becomes the head of the country, just a little more, and the USSR
[00:02:11] will collapse, and the Russian Federation becomes
[00:02:14] the legal successor
[00:02:16] of the USSR, this also happens within the framework of the USSR, this is
[00:02:20] a much bigger event, imagine the Chairman of the Supreme
[00:02:24] Soviet, the RSFSR never had such a status
[00:02:27] as the President of the Russian Federation. So
[00:02:31] this also explains that, as it were, from this moment on, we
[00:02:34] should talk, and we can, with such a perspective, read
[00:02:38] books about Yeltsin, from June
[00:02:41] 12, 1991, we are dealing with a different
[00:02:45] Yeltsin, Yeltsin, who is the President of the Russian Federation, he
[00:02:49] reached a new level, yes, a thousand problems,
[00:02:52] he stands at the head of a country that needs
[00:02:55] to undergo reforms, which are all ahead and are difficult
[00:02:58] and complex, but... he is president, if
[00:03:02] we read what Arnold Rüütel says
[00:03:05] in articles, interviews, he says,
[00:03:08] "We talked with Yeltsin,
[00:03:11] say, a few months, half a year, or a year
[00:03:15] before that, we agreed on this, this, this, that," starting
[00:03:18] from June 12, Yeltsin is already a different person, he
[00:03:21] protects the country, and one can say, every meter of this
[00:03:25] state, of which he became president, so what do you mean by Pechory?
[00:03:29] Well, Pechory and the territory beyond Narva, beyond
[00:03:33] the Narva River and so on, that is,
[00:03:35] they talked before June 12,
[00:03:38] 1991, Rüütel with Yeltsin about
[00:03:42] Estonia getting
[00:03:45] back the lands beyond Narva and
[00:03:49] the Pechory region, and the monastery, and so on, because
[00:03:52] well, there are such conversations, or it is often
[00:03:55] mentioned in literature, but again, before
[00:03:58] June 12, or even earlier, Yeltsin
[00:04:02] spoke of such things in a completely different status, this is theoretically,
[00:04:05] so to speak, he had no status, no such
[00:04:08] responsibility, there were no generals around him who
[00:04:12] would ask: "Wait, what are you doing, Mr.
[00:04:15] President?" It's always, well, when a person sits in one chair,
[00:04:19] he has responsibility, then he looks at the world and even at every
[00:04:22] meter of his country differently, when he, when he
[00:04:26] is theoretically, that's another matter, understood, understood, that is, in...
[00:05:12] Therefore, the world had to reconsider
[00:05:15] its positions, its relations with Yeltsin, the Russian Federation
[00:05:19] and so on. So, the policy
[00:05:22] towards both the Soviet Union, and Gorbachev, and
[00:05:26] Yeltsin changes radically, so,
[00:05:29] for example, these problems which are so very close
[00:05:33] and very important and seem almost
[00:05:36] existential to us in Estonia, they
[00:05:39] are no longer viewed at the world level, at the
[00:05:42] level of the Russian Federation, in that way.
[00:05:45] Here, the question of the border, or the customs
[00:05:49] territory, or the control
[00:05:52] line, as politicians or in documents
[00:05:55] it is written, rises to a new status.
[00:05:59] So, the Russian Federation was
[00:06:02] interested in protecting these
[00:06:05] borders, well, economically this is important, so for
[00:06:09] Yeltsin, for his system, it became...
[00:06:42] our post will stand where we will check documents. That's how
[00:06:46] it happened that the Russian Federation
[00:06:49] was interested in a control line,
[00:06:53] at least a control line for the future border with
[00:06:56] Estonia.
[00:07:42] people, many, who had not yet decided who they were, who they were
[00:07:46] for, they traveled a lot to Russia, for goods,
[00:07:49] for something else, they set up some joint
[00:07:53] ventures, there, here, in our
[00:07:56] country, for example, newspapers were printed, I know for sure, for example,
[00:07:59] Russian, our businessmen, then
[00:08:02] aspiring businessmen, were running
[00:08:05] some productions in Russia and so on, here
[00:08:09] there is another very important question, all of you? these
[00:08:12] broadcasts, well, they didn't scare, but they always
[00:08:15] mentioned that Estonia avoided
[00:08:18] bloodshed, but that it was very
[00:08:22] real, very close. This is the second
[00:08:25] point. The third point, the border. The thing is that all
[00:08:28] border troops were under the aegis of the State
[00:08:32] Security Committee. What was happening in Estonia
[00:08:36] and who was establishing the borders, from whose side they wanted
[00:08:39] to draw this border, from the side.
[00:10:12] to raise their heads to the world and develop
[00:10:15] their own, they began to decide which
[00:10:19] territories would give bread, and
[00:10:22] of course, different groupings from...
[00:10:25] I don't know, Siberia to Central Asia, wanted
[00:10:28] to divide the Baltics too, as there was no border yet,
[00:10:32] so this was no longer quite a question
[00:10:34] of whether Estonia would be there or not, but it was also a question for the Russian
[00:10:38] Federation to establish some
[00:10:41] control, and moreover, there was a political
[00:10:45] discussion, the Russian Federation, as it were, had
[00:10:47] no interest in waiting
[00:10:51] for Estonia to negotiate, whether there would be
[00:10:53] a border according to the Tartu Peace Treaty or
[00:10:57] so on, we were already close to a conflict
[00:11:00] in 1990, when Kaitseliit
[00:11:03] conducted a staff exercise on how to set
[00:11:06] up border posts on the border according to the Estonian
[00:11:09] constitution of 1920 or the Tartu Peace Treaty, after that,
[00:11:12] the Soviet Union immediately reacted and somehow
[00:11:15] this conflict was resolved. Wait, are you saying that Kaitseliit
[00:11:19] in 1990 was setting up border posts beyond
[00:11:22] Narva? It was a staff exercise. They
[00:11:25] were putting them on the map, well, there are exercises that are
[00:11:28] in the field, so to speak, there are exercises that are
[00:11:31] on the map, when it's being worked out,
[00:11:35] all border guards, military, they play on the map, and
[00:11:38] then they go out to train, that's
[00:11:42] a staff exercise, like that, but how did Moscow find out about
[00:11:45] staff exercises of an organization it had
[00:11:48] no connection with? Well, KGB
[00:11:51] intelligence officers, and so on, had equipment and...
[00:11:55] Of course, if we recall, if we recall
[00:11:58] 1991 and Kaitseliit, Kaitseliit was
[00:12:01] dangerous because there were few
[00:12:04] weapons, it was accidental, very different
[00:12:08] people ended up in Kaitseliit and what it ended with, we opened
[00:12:11] the newspaper in the morning, and there was again
[00:12:14] a report that someone in Kaitseliit, probably not quite
[00:12:18] understanding what he should be doing, got drunk
[00:12:21] or consumed alcohol or was not well
[00:12:25] trained during his conscription service,
[00:12:28] forgot how to clean a weapon,
[00:12:32] forgot that he had not unloaded the weapon,
[00:12:35] fired a shot, a comrade died, he
[00:12:38] himself died, it might be a little embarrassing to recall this today,
[00:12:42] but open the newspapers of 1991,
[00:12:46] or the following years, we will see all this,
[00:12:49] good, let's go back to 1991, how did Russia
[00:12:53] establish the border? It put up posts, it put
[00:12:56] up not posts initially, but just control points, because
[00:13:00] if our head of border, well,
[00:13:03] as border troops or border guards, took
[00:13:07] office only on April 8, 1991,
[00:13:11] it didn't mean that it was completely at zero,
[00:13:14] but border troops were only
[00:13:17] being created, because Estonia didn't have its own border troops, it
[00:13:21] was the USSR, the KGB, that was dealing with it, these troops...
[00:14:05] well, by sea, at least, border guards
[00:14:08] of the Russian Federation appeared on
[00:14:11] the border with Estonia, so to speak? Yes, but
[00:14:14] conditionally speaking, border points, yes,
[00:14:17] border points, because it was an internal
[00:14:20] border, it was drawn on the map, people
[00:14:23] knew, but if someone... went to Pechory, he didn't think he was
[00:14:27] crossing a border, starting in 1991,
[00:14:30] suddenly there was a checkpoint, so,
[00:14:33] some border guards had to be transferred to the internal
[00:14:36] border, the internal border was in Peter the Great's time, in the time of Peter
[00:14:40] I, at the beginning, when these territories were included in the Russian
[00:14:44] Empire, Peter II, just in case, left an internal
[00:14:48] border, which was also protected or
[00:14:50] checked, and then it was removed, so, for centuries,
[00:14:54] well, no one... thought of going to Peter to the market, selling cucumbers or
[00:14:57] fish, or potatoes, well, no one thought that
[00:15:01] suddenly you needed to have documents and customs and so on, so
[00:15:05] this began, it was certainly a shock for
[00:15:08] a certain region, for example, to Lake Peipus,
[00:15:11] this is the entire internal economy of Estonia,
[00:15:15] these people, they lived on this, by transporting
[00:15:18] products to Leningrad, feeding Leningrad not
[00:15:22] by order, but to earn money. Fish from
[00:15:26] Lake Peipus went there, meat and so on, but suddenly it
[00:15:29] was a big shock, you had to understand, what will I do now,
[00:15:33] where is my market then, where will I sell this
[00:15:36] produce, or... onions or potatoes, cucumbers and so
[00:15:39] on, understood, well, the problem here was that Yeltsin had a map,
[00:15:43] or the Russian side did, they set up their checkpoints, and the
[00:15:47] Estonian side, as it were, had no other option,
[00:15:50] because behind these border guards it was impossible
[00:15:54] to set up their own checkpoints, so what was left,
[00:15:58] to put up their own
[00:16:02] booth opposite the booth
[00:16:05] of the Russian Federation border guards, that's how it appeared.
[00:16:07] училища, но произнести его я не могу, можешь сначала сказать аббравиатуру, а потом уже расшифровать.
[00:16:25] Alexander Povodov, cadet of a military
[00:16:28] academy, but I can't pronounce its name, can you first say the abbreviation and then decipher it?
[00:16:38] LV and Us. Leningrad Higher
[00:16:41] Military Engineering School of Communications named after
[00:16:44] Lensovet. How did you manage to get into a military
[00:16:47] academy in Russia in 1991?
[00:16:50] A boy from Estonia? Well, that's the point, he was
[00:16:53] a boy. Boys always like such military,
[00:16:57] strong professions. In fact, there was a choice: go to the army or go
[00:17:01] to study. Did you dodge it? No, military
[00:17:04] academy is certainly not dodging. That was
[00:17:08] a joke, of course, the question, probably, is also that in those
[00:17:12] years it seemed that having received an engineering education,
[00:17:15] even a military one, you still remained an engineer in civilian life,
[00:17:19] that's precisely why I chose precisely
[00:17:22] an engineering academy, regardless of whether you wore shoulder
[00:17:26] straps or not, yes, but 1991 became
[00:17:29] a turning point in the history of Russia, and Estonia,
[00:17:32] and the military played quite
[00:17:35] a definite role here, that is... as a boy from Estonia,
[00:17:39] born here, you suddenly found yourself after
[00:17:43] August in the territory of another state, exactly,
[00:17:47] and I had a choice at some point,
[00:17:50] either I stay in Russia, finish
[00:17:53] the academy, take Russian citizenship, in
[00:17:56] theory sign a contract, become a soldier, or
[00:18:00] go home. Why did you choose Estonia? Oh,
[00:18:04] difficult question, actually, I realized that after all...
[00:18:07] my homeland is here, our mentality is no longer the same, I was really
[00:18:11] drawn home, actually, a military academy is not a stroll,
[00:18:15] it's the same army, the same barracks, the same
[00:18:18] reveille, taps, actually I was very, very tired
[00:18:22] by that time, so I returned to Estonia, didn't get into the army,
[00:18:26] naturally, yes, I served my time, it was counted
[00:18:29] here, I was put in the reserves, oh, really?
[00:18:33] What rank are you in the reserves? Private.
[00:18:36] Still a private, right? They didn't take into account,
[00:18:39] you were a squad commander. Okay, but tell me, how did you
[00:18:42] actually return and what do you remember about August
[00:18:46] 1991? There was a coup in Russia,
[00:18:49] and all the troops were standing, well, how to
[00:18:53] put it mildly, well, they were agitated. I will
[00:18:56] start with the coup precisely, because
[00:18:59] I returned after it, yes, naturally, you couldn't
[00:19:03] return during the coup, yes, it was a completely incomprehensible
[00:19:07] time, we were told that we were going to a summer
[00:19:11] camp, to our academy's training ground, actually a very
[00:19:15] wise decision by the academy's leadership,
[00:19:18] the general, I don't remember his rank, I think he was a lieutenant general,
[00:19:21] I don't remember his name either, unfortunately, yes, he decided
[00:19:25] to take all of us, along with our weapons, everyone had personal
[00:19:28] weapons, also assault rifles and ammunition, he took
[00:19:31] everyone to the forest for that time, when no one completely
[00:19:35] understood what to do next, especially the military...
[00:19:39] So, I understand that you could be gathered, figuratively speaking, in 2
[00:19:42] hours, on what date? Oh, I don't remember, honestly, I don't remember,
[00:19:46] that is, time is measured in hours, essentially, yes, it was
[00:19:50] somehow very fast, but not in hours, actually,
[00:19:53] I, yes, I was sent a little earlier to prepare the camp, that is,
[00:19:57] literally 2 hours later I already left to prepare a small tent
[00:20:00] camp there, the main academy
[00:20:04] arrived, I think, the next day, that is...
[00:20:38] It's quite possible, because most likely the military organized this coup,
[00:20:42] and I think it's quite possible that
[00:20:46] he knew, because he made a decision for himself, just
[00:20:49] about the page. Most likely to protect his
[00:20:52] guys, yes, the guys, but protect from what? Someone
[00:20:56] could come to you and say: go fight,
[00:20:59] go to the putschists, could someone send you somewhere
[00:21:03] other than the head of the academy? I can't answer, actually, because
[00:21:07] at that time it was all very quick, we
[00:21:11] learned about everything, actually, if you
[00:21:14] think about it, probably the most correct decision was to do it and
[00:21:18] that's it, yes, to protect the personnel, good,
[00:21:22] you returned from summer camp, when did that happen, also in
[00:21:25] August or already in September, or were you left to marinate there? We were
[00:21:29] there for probably about a month, then we returned
[00:21:32] and a new life began for
[00:21:35] you, for everyone, for everyone, the academic
[00:21:39] process began,
[00:21:42] and how long did you study? I literally
[00:21:45] studied for about another two months,
[00:21:48] and how did they send you back? Did they say, "Get out of here"?
[00:21:52] Actually, I made this decision myself, since no one
[00:21:56] came around and announced to us, "Who is from Estonia, leave,
[00:21:59] Balts, for example, leave," we all knew about it, and so
[00:22:03] they were already preparing contracts for us, those who
[00:22:06] wanted to continue studying, they signed contracts,
[00:22:09] accordingly, took Russian citizenship and continued
[00:22:12] their studies, and were there many such people from the Baltics?
[00:22:16] On my faculty there were three.
[00:22:20] Four - one
[00:22:22] was a very good friend of mine, he was from Paldiski, he stayed,
[00:22:26] well, apparently a military family also from Paldiski, yes, Paldiski is
[00:22:30] a well-known military post, yes, many left
[00:22:33] from there, one guy was from
[00:22:36] Pärnu, he left even earlier than me, but he left more due to
[00:22:39] academic failure, he was expelled, I think somehow
[00:22:42] he managed to go home, usually when they expelled someone, the person
[00:22:46] immediately went to the army, oh, well, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes,
[00:22:50] and one more also returned, but honestly,
[00:22:53] they were in different platoons and didn't really get along, after
[00:22:57] me, that is, essentially everyone returned except
[00:23:00] one, yes, from my faculty, and how did Estonia
[00:23:04] receive you? You arrived with shoulder straps. Well, I
[00:23:08] was in civilian clothes. Well, figuratively speaking, you had a passport, I had
[00:23:11] a story with my passport, when I was enrolling, here in the
[00:23:14] military commissariat, I was enrolling from the Rapala military commissariat,
[00:23:18] they told us to give our passports, because
[00:23:22] anything could happen, then it would be hard to go home, our
[00:23:26] military commissar said that, he
[00:23:28] insisted, in fact, that I enroll, this was probably his victory,
[00:23:31] because I resisted for a very long time, but good, they
[00:23:35] told you not to give your passport, and I couldn't not
[00:23:38] give it, because they said to give your passport by
[00:23:41] order, yes, by order,
[00:23:44] and when I was traveling
[00:23:47] back, I was traveling with a military ID, and where is your passport? Why
[00:23:50] didn't they give it back to you? I didn't have it, because it was lost,
[00:23:54] they said they sent it back to Estonia, they lied?
[00:23:57] Yes, I even asked here, when I returned,
[00:24:00] they didn't find it, so you, oh, you were allowed
[00:24:04] through with a military ID, yes, when
[00:24:07] I was sitting on the train, border guards came up to me, the first
[00:24:11] border guard, a young boy, he told me, well, how, what does
[00:24:15] young mean, I was also young at that time, younger, let's say
[00:24:18] so, he said, we can't... let you through, and I said, I'm
[00:24:21] going home, I said, I'm going home,
[00:24:25] and I said, call your superiors, we'll sort it out, I said,
[00:24:29] if you don't let me through, I'll swim across the Narva and still
[00:24:32] get home, I have nowhere else to go, I have one home, the
[00:24:36] senior officer came and said that if
[00:24:39] a person was born in Estonia, then we are
[00:24:42] obliged to let him through, even with a military ID at that
[00:24:45] time, and since I was born in Estonia and my place of residence is in
[00:24:49] Estonia, they let me through. How did you get
[00:24:52] citizenship with a military ID? Here I actually
[00:24:56] looked for my passport, no, I went to the passport office, said that this
[00:24:59] is the situation, I came from a military academy, lost
[00:25:02] my passport, went to the former military commissariat, met, there were already new
[00:25:06] people, of course, they actually offered me to continue studying
[00:25:10] in Finland, so why did you
[00:25:14] refuse? Sometimes I even regret it.
[00:25:17] Were you scared?
[00:25:51] I'll tell you honestly why it was scary, were there some five-minute meetings or
[00:25:54] what were they called, political discussions,
[00:25:57] political hours, did they scare you, did they
[00:26:00] tell you not to stick your neck out or what was there? They
[00:26:04] actually protected us, that's the thing,
[00:26:07] they protected us, because actually we had weapons, weapons at that time,
[00:26:11] well, the nineties, so what were they afraid of, that you would go to
[00:26:14] the barricades or become bandits? No, that we would be attacked and our
[00:26:17] weapons taken. Who, who, who would attack? Bandits,
[00:26:21] after all, yes, yes, the nineties were still wild years,
[00:26:24] plus St. Petersburg, to top it off, plus St. Petersburg, yes, that is, when
[00:26:27] I was on guard, protecting these weapons, alone in
[00:26:31] the dark. It was creepy for you,
[00:26:34] 1991 is memorable, I understand, very,
[00:26:37] very much so, but when you returned to Estonia,
[00:26:41] tell me, did you feel a difference between the Estonia
[00:26:44] you left, Soviet Estonia, and returning to
[00:26:48] independent Estonia, was there any difference for you? You returned
[00:26:52] home, everything was as it was before, the same apartment,
[00:26:56] the same streets, well, when you haven't been home for a year, for you
[00:26:59] it's a big difference, everything, well, nothing to build.
[00:27:35] when did it change for you, when did you realize that Estonia was independent, that
[00:27:39] it was a different country? I think in about three years, three years
[00:27:43] later, yes, that is, they were already giving you kroons, but you were still living,
[00:27:46] but you were still living, no, well, I'm not talking
[00:27:49] about the kroons appearing, I'm talking
[00:27:53] more about people, probably, about what was happening, you
[00:27:57] said that well about people, that
[00:28:00] many people felt... This was even
[00:28:03] later than when they changed, for example, rubles to
[00:28:24] about booths on the control line
[00:28:27] between the Russian Federation and the Estonian
[00:28:30] Republic, here we cannot but recall
[00:28:34] the events of July that took place
[00:28:38] in Ida-Viru County related, by the way, to
[00:28:41] one of the booths, yes, that's how it was, and Ida-Viru County
[00:28:45] is written more and more, but I'm still
[00:28:47] waiting for a very serious study to appear,
[00:28:51] and this is generally a very interesting topic,
[00:28:55] but what happened, precisely the Narva region or
[00:28:58] the Narva River, the bridge, where on one side...
[00:29:42] that you can live, so this small business, it's vitally
[00:29:46] much more important, in numbers it might even be
[00:29:49] ridiculous, but for a person it's not ridiculous, he can only live
[00:29:52] by selling cigarettes, selling alcohol,
[00:29:55] selling gasoline and so on and so forth. Peter, but in 1991,
[00:29:59] cigarettes still cost the same?
[00:30:12] but the trend itself, the trend itself: a person who is used to it, he is a free person, he never liked it, I must
[00:30:15] say that if, for example, before 1991
[00:30:19] a policeman came up and said: "Open your bag, please, I
[00:30:23] want to see what's in your bag," this, in principle,
[00:30:26] no one liked, but what changed was that
[00:30:29] now people wouldn't like it either, they never
[00:30:32] like it, it was suddenly at the crossing
[00:30:36] from Narva to Ivangorod a booth was set up, where it said
[00:30:39] customs control, so when you walked from
[00:30:42] Narva to Ivangorod, of course the person said: "What's it
[00:30:46] to you, I'm going to Ivangorod." I always walked here. Returning
[00:30:50] from Ivangorod, again, again customs control.
[00:30:53] The question is, we could, probably, write a similar story,
[00:30:57] but I just don't know such literature, did he write it?