ETVPLUS — broadcast
20261012 203000 UTC
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[00:00:00] This raises the suspicion whether the three-member group of citizens from Belarus, India
[00:00:03] and Kazakhstan are legally passing
[00:00:06] through the country.
[00:00:13] Okay, how long you plan to stay there? Maybe
[00:00:17] tomorrow come back, tomorrow come back. The illegal migration that intensified
[00:00:20] this summer made Estonian authorities react more actively,
[00:00:24] and now those entering Estonia
[00:00:27] by land are being checked more carefully.
[00:00:30] Only here at the port, how did you
[00:00:32] meet? This is my one company, your
[00:00:36] company, one, one company.
[00:00:40] One company, okay, well, our job is actually to
[00:00:43] screen out from
[00:00:46] this crowd the people who would need
[00:00:50] more attention in terms of control. Migrants who
[00:00:53] have come, maybe they don't feel
[00:00:57] so comfortable here, and therefore they behave
[00:01:00] a little bit in a way that is not like a typical
[00:01:03] tourist. Well,
[00:01:06] we generally recognize it, although
[00:01:09] identification takes time, and the Finnish border guard, who is assisting
[00:01:12] in Estonia, must also be involved. An unusual trio going by boat
[00:01:16] on a ship.
[00:01:21] I haven't seen such an interesting combination, what kind of Belarusian,
[00:01:24] Kazakh and Indian, I have never seen such a combination.
[00:01:28] The work continues
[00:01:30] with those who board the ship on foot. At
[00:01:33] the port.
[00:01:37] Based on appearance, nervousness, and the language spoken, it is assessed
[00:01:40] who needs checking and who does not. In a couple of months,
[00:01:44] nearly 20 illegal immigrants have been caught at the port,
[00:01:48] but extreme situations do not come with a warning. It depends
[00:01:51] on the situation, it depends, it can happen all of a sudden
[00:01:54] and then it can happen
[00:01:58] that actors start playing.
[00:02:00] That they feel bad and call an ambulance, as soon as
[00:02:04] you go to the emergency room with them, then everything is
[00:02:07] fine. During the summer, several illegal immigrants were caught based
[00:02:11] on tips from people, for example, when a large group was reported in Nõmme
[00:02:15] or hideouts were seen in the tunnel during an evening bike ride.
[00:02:18] This weekend there was such a case in
[00:02:21] Tallinn, where in fact, these
[00:02:25] distressed migrants themselves turned to
[00:02:29] a city resident for help, asking that,
[00:02:32] essentially, they be given help. One thing is that Estonia strengthened
[00:02:36] its border control, but another is that we went to the epicenter of illegal
[00:02:39] migration on the Belarus-Latvia border.
[00:02:42] That this Latvia-Belarus border today is
[00:02:46] very active and is active precisely
[00:02:49] because on the Belarusian side there are many
[00:02:53] people who want to enter the European
[00:02:56] Union. Rain Järv led the 11th rotation for Estonia
[00:03:00] in Latvia in mid-August. If in the news we have seen how tunnels
[00:03:03] have even been dug at the border, then according to Järv, when walking
[00:03:07] at the border, on the other side, rustling in the bushes can be seen in
[00:03:10] the literal sense. Visually,
[00:03:12] they are visible, there is not one, there are significantly
[00:03:16] more. If we can say it with a bit of humor, then
[00:03:19] it's a cat-and-mouse game, that
[00:03:22] they try to find these
[00:03:26] weak spots where
[00:03:28] it is possible to cross the border illegally,
[00:03:32] there are different mechanisms, they try with self-made
[00:03:35] ladders, they cover razor wire,
[00:03:38] they try to climb over, they try to come through the fence
[00:03:42] under the fence, that is,
[00:03:45] all possible ways. Although there were no very big
[00:03:49] escalations during Rain Järve's time at the border,
[00:03:52] what is happening there is a conscious activity of the Belarusian state,
[00:03:56] and therefore those moving to Europe can also be considered victims of migration
[00:04:00] pressure, and we don't really know with what promises,
[00:04:04] with what steps they have reached
[00:04:07] that Latvian forest, that is, what
[00:04:10] exactly has been told to them, what has been promised,
[00:04:13] right? Well, they certainly
[00:04:17] reach a situation at the border where they are actually
[00:04:21] in a relatively forced position, that
[00:04:24] if a person can move freely in the forest and a fence
[00:04:27] appears, a forced situation arises, right? Well, in a very
[00:04:31] generalized way, one could say that they are victims,
[00:04:33] tied his wife to a radiator in Haapsalu, poured right, in a sense, what to say to those people who say,
[00:04:36] well, why are we going to Latvia to check the Belarusian border,
[00:04:40] close this Estonian border properly here and go and close
[00:04:44] that one, then it's not us and you,
[00:04:47] right, in this context, that
[00:04:51] we all contribute to one
[00:04:54] European border, we have the
[00:04:58] Schengen area, this applies
[00:05:01] to everyone, regardless
[00:05:03] of whether we are in Estonia, Latvia,
[00:05:15] "Eero Janson, how should we treat people who come to our country and
[00:05:19] immediately start lying? One is the issue of lying about being a minor,
[00:05:23] we also heard that they go to the emergency room, get well,
[00:05:26] if a person really needed
[00:05:29] protection, then yes, it would be
[00:05:32] the most useful for him, and also for us, if he told
[00:05:36] his story immediately and honestly, and thereby helped
[00:05:40] the police border guard to do
[00:05:43] their work, and in fact, the European Union's
[00:05:47] law also allows to take into account
[00:05:51] those false statements that a person may
[00:05:54] have made during the procedure to his disadvantage,
[00:05:58] so I think, as said, it is useful for everyone if a person
[00:06:01] does not lie, and of course, it is in everyone's
[00:06:05] interest that people use
[00:06:08] only legal and documented
[00:06:13] ways to cross the border. However, the 1951 Refugee Convention
[00:06:16] also stipulates that if a person truly
[00:06:20] needs international protection, then in certain cases, illegal
[00:06:24] border crossing may be justified, or at least they should not
[00:06:28] be punished for it alone,
[00:06:31] provided that they immediately make themselves known to the border
[00:06:34] authorities and apply for asylum. Veiko Komussar,
[00:06:38] that really among those 269
[00:06:41] there were also 70 people who claimed to be minors, and
[00:06:45] then, upon closer examination, it turned out that only two were actually
[00:06:48] minors according to statistics, so why do they still
[00:06:51] lie to us? Yes, one reason is
[00:06:54] definitely playing with statuses,
[00:06:58] that in the course of this,
[00:07:01] they hope to get better protection conditions,
[00:07:05] and of course, when we talk about vulnerable groups in this
[00:07:09] context, that older people,
[00:07:11] women, and minor children, then they
[00:07:15] certainly also have higher
[00:07:19] due diligence requirements for international protection applications,
[00:07:23] and this is how they try to escape the actual situation,
[00:07:27] but, well, if it was also mentioned here that
[00:07:30] I very much agree with the previous speaker Laura, that Sandra,
[00:07:34] sorry, very much agree with Sandra, that
[00:07:38] our main effort must still be at the external
[00:07:41] border of the European Union, and to be strong there,
[00:07:45] because, well, if we draw a parallel from that, that
[00:07:48] if someone breaks into
[00:07:51] your home, and comes uninvited
[00:07:54] to your house, then generally we call
[00:07:57] the police, that and similarly
[00:08:00] in the context of illegal border crossing, that if you take
[00:08:03] this journey, where
[00:08:07] you basically hit the helper in the eye with a stone first, and then ask for help, right, what happens
[00:08:11] at the borders, right, that... well, what help should we figuratively
[00:08:14] provide to these criminals, right,
[00:08:17] that and and well, in today's context
[00:08:21] to bring tens of thousands
[00:08:25] of people into your country or the European Union and then start processing
[00:08:28] them here, knowing that there is actually
[00:08:32] no potential for this
[00:08:34] protection, well, that's not perhaps the right approach. Sandra
[00:08:38] Laur, the question also arose in the story, should we restore
[00:08:41] border control between Latvia and Estonia, considering that migration
[00:08:45] pressure is increasing in Latvia, what is your position?
[00:08:48] Yes, first of all, I would add that if illegal people
[00:08:51] come here and the first thing they do is lie to us,
[00:08:55] they want to exploit us, then don't think that if we now let them
[00:08:59] loose into society, then suddenly they will become
[00:09:03] law-abiding and exemplary citizens, but I guess no one is letting
[00:09:06] these illegal immigrants loose, and on the other hand,
[00:09:09] human rights were also mentioned. Look, if
[00:09:12] for example, a hostile state uses people as part of a hybrid attack
[00:09:16] and sends thousands of people to the border, then we cannot
[00:09:20] treat this hybrid attack as a humanitarian operation
[00:09:23] just because people are the weapon.
[00:09:26] War today is very dirty and people are exploited,
[00:09:30] but if there is an attack, it must be repelled, and our first duty is, but there were also children among them,
[00:09:33] still two people were minors, and now the law also
[00:09:37] discusses that these children should be sent to school, but specialists have
[00:09:40] pointed out today that if these children were to enter our education system, then they
[00:09:44] would be a threat to our own people, but
[00:09:47] we should also look at this concern more broadly,
[00:09:51] that if today, for example, TARO asks
[00:09:54] us to essentially report suspicious people
[00:09:57] in our society, then this is actually a direct
[00:10:01] admission that the state no longer controls the situation, and
[00:10:04] this is for people, people are worried, and this worry is, but then
[00:10:08] border control would be the solution. Of course, temporary
[00:10:11] border control should be considered. With Latvia, and don't get me wrong, this would not
[00:10:15] be revenge on our ally or punishment for Latvia, this is a completely
[00:10:18] normal practice. We see how, well, Germany
[00:10:21] controls its internal borders, Poland controls its border with Germany
[00:10:25] and Lithuania. The same opportunity is used by France, Austria, Denmark,
[00:10:28] Sweden. This is a practice stipulated by Schengen rules,
[00:10:32] and today it is important for us to control our borders, that our first priority
[00:10:36] must always be the security of our own country. Thank you.
[00:10:39] I wanted to elaborate on the question of restoring
[00:10:42] temporary Schengen border control. That in our society,
[00:10:45] it is indeed sometimes, when someone dares to bring up the idea that maybe
[00:10:49] internal borders should be restored,
[00:10:52] temporary control should be restored at internal borders.
[00:10:56] breaks out, that oh, oh, what will happen now, but if we look
[00:11:00] more broadly at Europe, then today more
[00:11:03] than one third has
[00:11:07] additional control imposed
[00:11:10] at internal borders, that is, Germany is,
[00:11:14] France is, Sweden is, and now, if we come back
[00:11:17] to the migration attack, then here
[00:11:20] there is an interesting context, namely
[00:11:23] it all started when Poland came under a very large migration attack in
[00:11:27] 2024, in 2024, and in
[00:11:31] 2025, from Belarus to Poland,
[00:11:34] somewhere around 20-30,000 people
[00:11:38] came per year, and then Poland
[00:11:41] decided that they would implement temporary
[00:11:44] additional border control in the Schengen area, and today the situation
[00:11:48] is that fewer than a thousand
[00:11:51] people come to Poland per year, and the timeline also shows that
[00:11:55] at the time when Poland implemented internal control
[00:11:58] with Lithuania first, this
[00:12:02] temporary border control, and from the same side also with Germany, then it made
[00:12:05] it more difficult for immigrants to reach Germany,
[00:12:09] because first they had to cross the Lithuanian border into Poland, and then again from Poland
[00:12:13] to Germany.
[00:12:16] Is it not true that the police actually also currently check cars
[00:12:19] coming from Latvia on those roads, so in some sense, we already
[00:12:23] have border control, even though we don't call it
[00:12:25] border control, but I would like to say to my friends and Latvians that it is very good that we have actually
[00:12:29] gone to help at the Belarusian border, and it is our clear
[00:12:32] duty, because even today, Latvians, it is just news that
[00:12:36] the saboteurs of our military
[00:12:39] company Vilrem were actually caught in Latvia by the Latvian
[00:12:43] police, so sometimes there are also cooperation points here,
[00:12:46] and trolling those individual roads coming from Latvia, if
[00:12:50] we were to say it completely, then of course the first priority is what Estonia is currently doing, that
[00:12:54] it helps to guard
[00:12:57] the external border of the European Union and operate there, but if it should happen
[00:13:01] that if we see, as Veiko, police Veiko
[00:13:04] said, that this year over 10,000 have come to Latvia,
[00:13:08] but last year over 10,000 came to Belarus, and if they no longer
[00:13:11] go further towards Lithuania or Poland, then that
[00:13:15] pressure can increase significantly more for us, and perhaps it is
[00:13:18] reasonable to consider it for some time, if there are no
[00:13:21] other measures, compensation measures.
[00:13:25] "And Viko Komussar, I understand that currently random checks are carried out
[00:13:28] on cars and people coming from Latvia, but what
[00:13:32] resources would it require to restore such full border
[00:13:35] control? Yes, first of all, that part
[00:13:38] where the strength of the European Union should
[00:13:42] lie and could lie in us very strongly guarding our European Union
[00:13:44] external border. The second question that is often
[00:13:48] raised is that there is temporary
[00:13:51] border control between countries within Schengen.
[00:13:55] We need to understand a bit what is behind this, that no
[00:13:59] classical border has been closed between any country
[00:14:02] within Schengen, that these are still measures of
[00:14:06] additional compensatory measures, additional patrols, additional
[00:14:09] checkpoints, mostly on major roads,
[00:14:12] in addition to all sorts of information sharing
[00:14:16] and all other stories, that today no border is still
[00:14:20] closed between any member state, that we can move freely, and if we move around,
[00:14:24] then perhaps... "Estonia sometimes becomes a target of control,
[00:14:28] but undoubtedly this movement or this activity has an impact,
[00:14:31] and Estonia is no exception here, that
[00:14:34] does the PPA even have the resources to check everyone
[00:14:38] coming from the direction of Latvia? Yes, if we wish, the Estonian
[00:14:42] state should reach a situation where we would have to
[00:14:45] close the border with Latvia, I don't know how that
[00:14:48] would help Latvia, or
[00:14:51] the migration attack problem in Europe as a whole, that
[00:14:55] we would create an isolated island of Latvia,
[00:14:57] this is definitely at least we feel that it is very unreasonable
[00:15:01] to do, rather to invest in the strengths
[00:15:05] on the Latvian and Belarusian borders, but if we talk about the price or the price tag
[00:15:08] now, then 30 days is 8 million euros. But would this
[00:15:12] border guard see that, for example, our Schengen area's
[00:15:16] external border, the eastern border, should be helped by other Schengen area countries,
[00:15:19] that, well, they operate on their own in Germany, but that they would also come
[00:15:23] to this side, and if we now look at Latvia, then Latvia has been helped by
[00:15:27] our colleagues from Finland,
[00:15:31] Lithuania, and last week
[00:15:34] Polish colleagues also reached the Latvian border,
[00:15:37] that the Latvian army,
[00:15:40] the Latvian police help to guard
[00:15:44] this whole Belarusian border, and that is the right
[00:15:47] way. Eero Janson, how is Estonia prepared for a situation
[00:15:51] where there should be really thousands
[00:15:53] of people at our border, that if this migration
[00:15:57] pressure somehow changes course?
[00:16:00] I think that public officials
[00:16:03] would be in a better position to answer how the state is prepared
[00:16:07] for this. However, if we think back
[00:16:11] from a human rights perspective, how would you act in such a situation?
[00:16:14] We are also prepared for various crisis scenarios,
[00:16:18] we are a humanitarian organization,
[00:16:21] we operate very
[00:16:24] extensively in Ukraine, Syria,
[00:16:27] Sudan, and now also in Palestine, meaning
[00:16:31] that we are ready to respond to crises, including
[00:16:34] in Estonia, truly, if such a need arises,
[00:16:37] and we very much hope that it will not. However, if we now think back
[00:16:41] to 2022 and onwards, then
[00:16:44] I think how the European Union as a whole coped
[00:16:48] not with 200 people, but with
[00:16:51] hundreds of thousands and millions of people
[00:16:55] in a very short timeframe, then we know that we can
[00:16:58] actually cope as a collective with such
[00:17:02] situations if they arise at our borders.
[00:17:05] I would like to add that, well, every
[00:17:08] country has the right to guard its border, there is
[00:17:12] no question here, but a country has a border,
[00:17:16] but I think that the limit of our empathy should not end where the state
[00:17:19] border ends. When we talk about Estonia's eastern border, well, Katrin
[00:17:23] Raik, there were also cases in Narva and
[00:17:26] Luhamaa this summer, where people came to our border whose documents had suddenly
[00:17:29] disappeared or been destroyed during the border crossing.
[00:17:33] So, well, does this actually worry local government leaders there
[00:17:37] on the spot? Or was the Narva border crossing point also
[00:17:41] closed for a couple of hours to resolve this specific
[00:17:43] incident? Of course, it still worries
[00:17:47] them, that people in the border area feel this border
[00:17:50] problem and concern more than people who
[00:17:54] but closing the border altogether, a final closure, actually
[00:17:58] closing the border, closing Estonia, is a difficult decision. Here one must
[00:18:02] consider that
[00:18:05] besides the physical border, the border is often also a question
[00:18:08] of identity for Narva people, that Narva people are used to living,
[00:18:12] and their whole identity is built on the fact that we are between St. Petersburg
[00:18:16] and Tallinn, you come from St. Petersburg to Tallinn, you go to Narva, you go from Narva
[00:18:20] to Tallinn, you go to Sillalinn 2022, when the border
[00:18:23] closed, partially closed in Narva,
[00:18:27] then this bridge function and bridge feeling
[00:18:31] disappeared from Narva, so for Narva, closing this border would be important
[00:18:35] from a security perspective. I
[00:18:39] don't believe it, here I would believe what Veiko says and
[00:18:43] would certainly acknowledge Veiko's words as correct, I don't
[00:18:46] believe that we have to completely close Estonia and isolate it,
[00:18:50] because what do we actually achieve with that, the border queue is no longer
[00:18:54] so long, people cross the border less often, repeated
[00:18:56] border crossings have decreased, let's be honest, Narva people cross less often,
[00:19:00] because there are so many goods that are not allowed to be transported across,
[00:19:03] when in between the main commodity, I understand, was cheese, which could be taken out of Estonia.
[00:19:07] You couldn't take it to Russia either, you had to tie it around
[00:19:11] your body in the toilet between the two borders,
[00:19:14] so now this trade, right, that fewer people are going, who are tourists
[00:19:18] coming from other countries, Narva is full of Finnish cars, because
[00:19:21] the border from Finland is closed, so 140 km
[00:19:24] from Narva to St. Petersburg, so it's not just a problem for Narva people,
[00:19:28] but a big part of Europe who wants to move towards St. Petersburg,
[00:19:32] and I don't know what we will achieve if
[00:19:39] that when looking at Europe more broadly,
[00:19:43] no, I don't know, is this assessment correct, that
[00:19:47] the European Union has handled this migration attack since 2015
[00:19:50] or these migration flows in the big picture,
[00:19:53] with registration, we have probably managed, but whether
[00:19:57] we have really managed with all the solutions
[00:20:01] during the last 11 or 12 years, well, here I
[00:20:04] certainly have a number of questions about what you mean? That
[00:20:08] well, all this giving international protection to individuals,
[00:20:12] actually determining the need for help, and well, the bigger question, even if these
[00:20:16] people have received this help, the question of their integration
[00:20:19] into societies, and on the other hand, if
[00:20:22] we look today, then the rates
[00:20:25] of returns are constantly increasing, that the European Union
[00:20:29] as a whole has actually made a significant turning
[00:20:32] point in this regard, that not everyone is
[00:20:36] any longer subjects of international protection,
[00:20:40] and Europe has still realized that coping with these masses
[00:20:42] is no longer something that was perhaps initially thought,
[00:20:46] and today no country has dealt with this issue
[00:20:50] alone, and if it was said here that
[00:20:54] we close this southern border, then from our perspective,
[00:20:57] it actually means that not only the police
[00:21:00] border guard is involved in this issue, but the entire state apparatus,
[00:21:04] from the armed forces, the Defense League, to local governments and
[00:21:07] other state institutions
[00:21:10] put their main emphasis on guarding
[00:21:13] the closed border. Are we today at a point where
[00:21:16] such a decision should be made? Definitely not. Sandra Laur, yes. The Russian
[00:21:20] border, it should have been closed a long time ago, that here we are not
[00:21:23] only talking about migration pressure, we are talking about the Milrem terrorist
[00:21:27] attack, we are talking about Russian fighters in our airspace and so
[00:21:30] on, that look my personal opinion is of course
[00:21:34] that we should also militarize our border guard, because
[00:21:37] any weakness in our border guard directly
[00:21:40] endangers the security of other countries
[00:21:43] in our region, and we see this especially
[00:21:47] in the case of using immigration as a weapon, we saw how
[00:21:50] Morocco used the Ceuta border as a geopolitical blackmail
[00:21:53] tool. Today, Russia would not even have to send any
[00:21:57] tanks across the border, but it would be enough if they loosened
[00:22:00] the border regime. That thousands of people, just let them go towards Estonia.
[00:22:04] That we should be immediately ready at the border
[00:22:07] to react to such a hybrid attack, and
[00:22:10] the army could react much more forcefully
[00:22:14] to it, meaning our task today is not only to guard our border,
[00:22:17] but also to protect it from the very first meter,
[00:22:21] from the very first minute, because cannot guarantee security.
[00:22:24] Let's dare to protect our people. I also wanted to say
[00:22:28] that I would rather say that we have
[00:22:31] not coped with this migration crisis that was in 2015.
[00:22:35] One thing is that if simply Estonia or more broadly?
[00:22:38] More broadly, more broadly, and well, it eventually
[00:22:42] reflects here in Estonia. That if it's one thing to
[00:22:46] try to give a person asylum and you process it, but you also have
[00:22:49] to find school places for him, you have to find housing for him,
[00:22:53] you have to ensure that he socializes
[00:22:55] into society, that crime doesn't
[00:22:59] run rampant, and first of all, you also
[00:23:03] have to make sure that society doesn't polarize, what we see today
[00:23:06] during various, for example, elections,
[00:23:08] how such very
[00:23:11] extremist parties come to
[00:23:15] power, then this is actually one consequence of that,
[00:23:19] and we can actually already say today that
[00:23:22] extremism can actually sometimes only be assessed retrospectively,
[00:23:26] and we can say that Merkel's behavior, in today's picture,
[00:23:30] how we look at how she coped, was at the time, today we can say it was
[00:23:33] extremism, to say to millions
[00:23:36] of people, come to Europe, we can handle it. Eero Janson, do you agree that Europe
[00:23:39] has thus failed, it seems to others? just in this
[00:23:43] area? Was 2015-16, when there was the so-called
[00:23:46] Syrian crisis, handled well?
[00:23:50] No, I think the Temporary Protection Directive should have been implemented
[00:23:53] for the first time back then,
[00:23:56] as it was finally done for Ukrainians in 2022.
[00:24:00] However, Veika also mentioned
[00:24:03] repatriations, and here I completely agree
[00:24:07] that the basis for the legitimacy of the right to asylum
[00:24:10] and asylum policy is actually that we
[00:24:13] are able firstly,
[00:24:16] to quickly identify people who need protection,
[00:24:20] and provide them with that necessary protection. Secondly, people who
[00:24:23] do not need protection should be swiftly,
[00:24:27] effectively, and humanely repatriated to their home country, or
[00:24:31] at least to a country with which they have a sufficient connection, so that they genuinely
[00:24:34] have a reason to return there. So,
[00:24:38] repatriation is not
[00:24:39] some kind of, well, let's say it's the
[00:24:43] basis of legitimacy for the entire asylum system, but
[00:24:46] it's just a common occurrence that repatriation, when we talk about failure,
[00:24:50] which we did, then repatriation is one example of how we have failed in the European
[00:24:53] Union, because only about
[00:24:57] 30% of people can be sent back, for example, in Germany.
[00:25:00] And people still find ways to delay
[00:25:04] not being sent back to their home country, perhaps also cooperation
[00:25:08] between countries. So, is this currently on the table in many countries,
[00:25:12] how to facilitate sending people
[00:25:14] back to their home country more effectively?
[00:25:18] Well, one extreme in that sense... one such interesting approach is
[00:25:22] where the European Union has taken the position that we should establish
[00:25:26] asylum centers in countries outside the European Union,
[00:25:29] so we move them there. For example, there has been talk of Rwanda,
[00:25:33] Uganda, Albania, and
[00:25:36] then on the one hand, this should also act as a deterrent, so there is no pull factor to come to Europe, so that
[00:25:39] people know that they will be taken there, and this might
[00:25:43] also encourage this phenomenon, that we are
[00:25:46] more successful in deportations. For example, Sweden currently pays
[00:25:50] children money to return to their home country, but most still don't
[00:25:53] want to go, because it's comfortable to dip into the state's purse and ride
[00:25:57] on the back of society. Katrin Raik. My heart ached
[00:26:01] because of what Sandra said, that if our state border was not protected, our
[00:26:04] state border is actually protected, and increasingly so, every year
[00:26:08] we are not blind anymore and we see what happens on the border,
[00:26:11] not as ordinary people, but by the Police
[00:26:14] and Border Guard Board. The cooperation between the Police and Border Guard Board and the defense forces is actually
[00:26:18] very strong. I have seen that as
[00:26:21] the mayor of Narva, that currently in protecting
[00:26:23] the state border, a very good and strong job is being done. We
[00:26:27] must be very grateful to the people who do this work every day,
[00:26:31] and also to the Tax and Customs Board people as well. But
[00:26:34] perhaps we should discuss for a moment, if
[00:26:37] we currently have one detention center, am I right in saying it's overcrowded currently
[00:26:41] in Raevalla, then do we actually
[00:26:45] still need to expand this capability? Would you be willing
[00:26:48] to accept it in Narva, considering what obligations would arise? As we know, the correct answer is
[00:26:52] no, no, for God's sake, anywhere else, not here. So it was such
[00:26:55] a difficult topic, it isn't, but we have survived in Narva in 2022,
[00:26:59] 2023. Again, I'm not comparing illegal
[00:27:03] immigrants and war refugees from Ukraine, when people
[00:27:06] came, you know, across the border in tens and hundreds, children were born,
[00:27:10] people, unfortunately, died. People came with parrots,
[00:27:13] try bringing a parrot into the European Union, it wasn't that
[00:27:17] easy, and problems had to be solved
[00:27:20] around the clock. The city government's drivers were working around the clock,
[00:27:23] social welfare officials, social
[00:27:25] workers were working around the clock. It
[00:27:29] was a huge burden, and even then, a very strong
[00:27:33] question arose: what is the obligation of the local government? Does the local
[00:27:36] government put some of its own money, so to speak,
[00:27:39] into play by feeding people, providing water, providing
[00:27:43] food? Is the state then so
[00:27:45] honest, gentlemanly, that it will pay that money
[00:27:49] back later, under what scheme? These things
[00:27:52] definitely need more precise discussion, because we truly live
[00:27:56] in a time when hybrid attacks are an everyday
[00:27:59] part of life, we don't know what's next, so there are certainly
[00:28:02] more opportunities for cooperation. Yes, I think
[00:28:06] we cannot call a system a failure that has actually helped
[00:28:10] millions and millions of people
[00:28:14] over the years, giving them
[00:28:16] protection in this difficult situation.
[00:28:19] Similarly, I think there
[00:28:22] are many stereotypes related to migration that have already been expressed here at the table, and
[00:28:26] and also false
[00:28:28] claims spreading on social media, and so on.
[00:28:32] "The vast majority of people who leave their home country due to war or
[00:28:36] persecution do so within their home country or
[00:28:40] in neighboring countries. So this notion that
[00:28:42] there are masses of people everywhere who all
[00:28:46] want to come specifically to Europe, I think we think a little too
[00:28:49] highly of ourselves in this regard.
[00:28:52] The entire image of an immigrant as
[00:28:56] a kind of Schrödinger's immigrant, who at the same time comes and steals
[00:29:00] our jobs, and then at the same time also relies
[00:29:04] on support, who is dangerous and at the same time
[00:29:07] helpless. Well, I think that, well, I think we can do
[00:29:10] better. Is this country, or I don't know, society at large, also somewhat
[00:29:14] hypocritical, in that it treats Ukrainian refugees one way? If we
[00:29:17] remember 2015, when a wave of refugees also
[00:29:21] came to Europe, they were treated differently. But in the case of current illegal migration,
[00:29:24] we also know from social surveys that
[00:29:27] such an image of a stranger is always a bit alienating, right?
[00:29:31] That always... a person who looks
[00:29:35] a little more like us, or who has some characteristics
[00:29:38] similar to us, it is easier to feel
[00:29:41] empathy for them. But I think that
[00:29:45] says something about our society if we cannot show empathy
[00:29:49] towards people, towards people
[00:29:52] who look a little different, or whose stories
[00:29:56] are tragic and difficult. Sandra Laur, yes, I
[00:29:59] think at this point we need to take off our ideological glasses and look at what is happening,
[00:30:03] that the limitations and rapes associated with immigrants
[00:30:06] have already reached Estonia today. CAPO has warned for years
[00:30:09] about the risks of radicalization, about the growing Muslim community
[00:30:13] growing, and we see that today. In Tartu, a hundred
[00:30:16] Muslims gathered for Eid al-Adha prayers, and they confirmed that they had
[00:30:20] previously illegally skinned animals
[00:30:23] for this holiday in Estonia. But what rapes are you talking about? Yes, last
[00:30:27] year, Ghanaian citizens raped intoxicated
[00:30:29] women in Estonia. A Syrian war refugee
[00:30:35] lighter fluid over her, and threatened to set her on fire. The notorious
[00:30:39] Sudanese Bolt driver, who was also
[00:30:42] a refugee, raped a schoolgirl, and he still cannot
[00:30:46] be deported from our country. So the question is, how long can we
[00:30:50] deny reality in the name of ideology, and how long can
[00:30:53] we ignore these conflicts simply because left-wingers should
[00:30:57] admit that their boundless tolerance endangers the entire
[00:31:00] society.