FRANCE24 — broadcast
20261012 083000 UTC
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[00:00:50] tell Melina a football match that you
[00:00:54] attended and in which the football was a Russian
[00:00:57] soldier's skull, and that's one of your ghosts with whom uh you
[00:01:00] live and that you came back, yes, and and paradoxically, uh
[00:01:04] that's something that I hadn't told in my
[00:01:08] report for France 24 we were in Kupyansk and there was
[00:01:11] a body that had finally
[00:01:14] literally melted under the
[00:01:16] Despite his efforts, several sections of snow after weeks and weeks without the
[00:01:20] Russians wanting to retrieve it because we also have to explain the context and
[00:01:24] that a body that comes back that is
[00:01:27] despairing of retrieved by Russian soldiers is a dead person who at the same time... enters into
[00:01:30] statistics and can also give rise to
[00:01:33] bonuses for the women or the
[00:01:36] mothers, well, or the family, so the bodies were often
[00:01:39] abandoned on the front and after a while there were
[00:01:43] some Ukrainians who retrieved the bodies to be able to exchange them with the bodies of their own
[00:01:47] soldiers and then there were some who remained like that in the snow and
[00:01:51] so it was no longer a body, in fact it was no longer than a skeleton, but
[00:01:55] when they started playing, uh laughing
[00:01:57] moreover, it's really me, it's
[00:02:00] laughter, that's what comes to mind, uh I didn't tell myself these people are
[00:02:03] horrible they are monsters, in fact
[00:02:07] they also lost their humanity in the midst of this war
[00:02:29] is... that of reporters on the ground, is that the
[00:02:33] reality of this war in Ukraine, is
[00:02:36] the offensive launched by Russia contrary to what Russia
[00:02:39] would like to establish as a
[00:02:42] narrative that launched the large-scale offensive in February 2022, it's
[00:02:45] 4 and a half years old, but you're not
[00:02:48] driving and non-compliance with the there to sell the narrative of anyone,
[00:02:51] including Ukraine, a nation under attack, you're not
[00:02:54] doing communications for the Ukrainian army, and there
[00:02:58] you also have to find that fair.
[00:04:18] the way I delved back into archives because I
[00:04:21] was following a Chechen
[00:04:24] the MEP largely won the primary of battalion fighting alongside the Ukrainians, it was in 2023
[00:04:28] and I said to myself, well, I'm going to delve back into the archives of
[00:04:32] Chechnya, because it's also another country that was
[00:04:35] invaded by Russia, there were two Chechen wars, and I
[00:04:39] saw how my colleagues, some of whom still exist,
[00:04:42] covered Grozny in particular, and I was able to draw a
[00:04:45] parallel with the way we talked about it, because
[00:04:48] the survivors of the the question arises, what do we show, where does it become voyeurism
[00:04:51] where does it become indecent, where does
[00:04:54] the information stop, what do we do with it, are we there to shock
[00:04:58] people or are we there to? mask the reality, the reality that
[00:05:02] it can turn anyone into a monster, even if I don't like that word,
[00:05:05] and I saw that things that
[00:05:08] we showed in the past
[00:05:11] society destroy itself from are today but... but it's a paradox, we are saturated
[00:05:14] with abominable images on social networks, we see what's happening in
[00:05:18] Gaza live, we see people dying live on our phones,
[00:05:22] but when you're a journalist and you work for television, radio,
[00:05:25] sometimes you say to yourself: but can
[00:05:28] I show this, this is so horrible, and when I saw the
[00:05:31] way wars were covered years ago, I really
[00:05:35] asked myself that question and I don't have the answer by the way, we showed
[00:05:39] more things, we showed a lot more things, we weren't going to blur... there have
[00:05:42] been many debates among colleagues, among peers, among friends, what
[00:05:46] do we show, what do we blur? There's decency, of
[00:05:49] course, there are charters, there's our ethics, there's our
[00:05:53] morality, there are also our personal limits, and the question
[00:05:56] arises, what do I show to also make sure that people
[00:06:00] see and become aware of what
[00:06:56] country, there's well, and that doesn't mean that all
[00:06:59] Ukrainians are good
[00:07:02] victims, I put a lot of inverted commas around that expression, they all behave in
[00:07:06] a way, there are rights, there are possibilities to
[00:07:09] qualify certain things and we must not also. that the word
[00:07:13] uh or the battle of the word uh
[00:07:16] for certain things when the battle of the word becomes too
[00:07:19] important that it masks reality so we must at some
[00:07:24] says show
[00:07:27] reality face to face, so afterwards there are many ways to say it and I
[00:07:31] will talk about a report that was awarded at Prix Bayeux last year about the
[00:07:35] reality of rape of women in Kyiv, so what do we
[00:07:38] do, we hear testimonies from women as we already hear them.
[00:07:42] it doesn't move us at all anymore because we've heard them so much that we
[00:07:46] almost consider them almost as a
[00:07:49] fatality, what do we do because we put statistics, the statistics are
[00:07:52] phenomenal, they don't follow and well, this report showed
[00:07:56] or you show a war rape, this report
[00:07:59] showed nurses who were talking and on a table
[00:08:03] there was a small piece of dirty paper
[00:08:06] uh a razor blade
[00:08:09] uh rusty nails, there was a box.
[00:08:13] a box and this nurse said this is what we found in the
[00:08:17] vagina of a woman who came to see us uh this word
[00:08:21] that said we will exterminate you to the last of
[00:08:24] you that was put with rusty nails and all that and well
[00:08:27] that where we don't show the abominable but
[00:08:31] where we say the abominable well for me was much more
[00:08:34] powerful and I know it all the more because we did a show about this film
[00:08:38] and this scene is engraved uh in my memory and I...
[00:08:42] think of all those who saw this film Claude, indeed
[00:08:46] is it because the the the purpose
[00:08:49] of your book also Melina and it's a question we ask both of you
[00:08:53] I think when you come back from Ukraine or from well rather
[00:08:56] from Ukraine which concerns us Europeans in the first place
[00:09:00] is war at our doorstep, will this war that you saw
[00:09:03] 3 hours flight from Paris arrive,
[00:09:06] is there today in the speech of the Ukrainians you speak to or
[00:09:10] with whom you are in contact a kind of warning to us
[00:09:14] so I would say that in any case on the Ukrainian side but not
[00:09:17] only in Lebanon I was also told
[00:09:19] that there's really this thing
[00:09:23] of you don't realize Claude you
[00:09:26] said in your book the sound of boots, war at our
[00:09:30] doorstep, everyone's anxiety, and in fact I wanted to bounce back on war
[00:09:33] at our doorstep because we often use this term to talk about Ukraine, war
[00:09:37] is already here, in fact it's also what I want to explain in my
[00:09:41] essay, my essay because it's called Against War, but the subtitle is to be
[00:09:45] clear-headed, understand, act, we must clearly
[00:09:48] understand that today the
[00:09:51] notion, the boundary between peace and war,
[00:09:55] has considerably uh narrowed,
[00:09:58] blurred, it's very porous, we may not be in an
[00:10:01] open conflict today with weapons, but there is
[00:10:05] war that has seeped once again into all the interstices of our
[00:10:07] society, in fact we are in a hybrid conflict
[00:10:11] uh and... it's easier, that's what I explain in,
[00:10:14] I explain in my book, it's easier for a man like Putin,
[00:10:18] but not only to stay in his office thousands of kilometers away, to see a
[00:10:24] within. by its extreme polarization which is
[00:10:27] then exploited via interference, disinformation,
[00:10:31] everything we call hybrid warfare, which is a bit of a catch-all but which is a
[00:10:34] reality, than to put charts
[00:10:38] at the door of our borders, so I echo the sound of boots, war at our
[00:10:42] doorstep, everyone's anxiety that you wrote Claude, in fact war
[00:10:45] already has one foot in our doors, and now the question is
[00:10:49] what do we do, do we close this door by agreeing to see what
[00:10:53] is hanging over us or do we
[00:11:24] now. we need to be aware of it to be able to avoid it, do
[00:11:27] we remind what war does
[00:11:30] uh what it does what it does to living things, uh you
[00:11:34] tell this child in Lebanon Melina who knows how to recognize, he's 7 years old
[00:11:38] uh the sound of a rocket, to make a difference between the sound of a rocket and an
[00:11:41] Israeli bombing you ask yourself Claude what will become of the
[00:11:45] soldiers afterwards, uh
[00:12:28] which explains well the difficulty of making that hold in
[00:12:31] contracts, I wanted to, during
[00:12:34] the last anniversary of the war in Ukraine, I wanted to see the war from the perspective
[00:12:38] of children and grandchildren, because the war in Ukraine didn't start
[00:12:42] there, it started back in 2014 with the invasion of the
[00:12:45] Donbas and the annexation of Crimea, but for young
[00:12:48] children, what does it mean to live with sirens
[00:14:50] be fatalistic, it's just to be very realistic, peace
[00:14:53] is almost an anomaly... in fact in the history of humanity, we have this chance
[00:14:57] to have grown up, lived for the vast majority of us
[00:15:01] for 80 years on our metropolitan soil anyway,
[00:15:04] we must specify, in a country at peace, and have
[00:15:08] forgotten what that was like, even look, all
[00:15:13] Shoah are disappearing one after
[00:15:17] another, and we are in such an era of post-truth that
[00:15:20] sometimes people tell us that it never
[00:15:23] existed and... I think what's important, and that's
[00:15:27] what's happening in my opinion, is that there's an awareness that it can happen to anyone, at
[00:15:31] any time, and it shouldn't paralyze us, it should lead
[00:15:34] us to prepare for it to...
[00:15:37] avoid it, not because it's a naive and
[00:15:41] pacifist and stupid injunction, but because it's what will
[00:15:44] preserve us from the pain that all the people we met on our
[00:15:48] path with Claude and with others have
[00:15:52] been through, thank you very much to both of you for coming this morning to this set, the
[00:15:55] documentary film we were talking about earlier is called Tigray Rape, the Silent Weapon
[00:15:59] by Naba and Marianne Getti, your two
[00:16:01] books Against War at Payot Melina Huette To be
[00:16:05] Clear-headed, Understand and Act, Claude what
[00:16:13] tell us about the state of the world, we'll be back in about fifteen minutes for the rest of Let's Talk, see you later,
[00:16:32] it's the densest urban network in the country,
[00:16:35] 32,000 km of roads used by 15 million
[00:16:38] vehicles, in Delhi, traffic never
[00:16:42] stops,
[00:16:45] cars, trucks, motorcycles, rickshaws, buses and bicycles must coexist
[00:16:49] in the chaos. Managing this traffic
[00:16:52] is a challenge for the traffic police.
[00:16:55] circulation.
[00:16:58] Some drivers violate the traffic code. They should have stopped
[00:17:02] there, but they continued to move here. As a result, they block
[00:17:06] traffic from the other direction. and I have to deal with these violations, it takes
[00:17:10] time to ticket everyone while continuing to regulate
[00:17:12] traffic.
[00:17:15] the Indian capital holds a sad record, with 5,000
[00:17:19] accidents and nearly 1,500 deaths on average per year, the roads of
[00:17:23] Delhi are among the most deadly in the country. We
[00:17:26] will drive through Delhi for 2 hours to find out what really
[00:17:30] puts people's lives in danger.
[00:17:33] Quickly, we see that the most basic rules are not respected.
[00:18:12] Every day, road accidents occupy a significant place in television
[00:18:16] news.
[00:18:22] Deaths often linked to reckless
[00:18:26] traffic code. Even the simplest measures, like seat belts,
[00:18:29] are often ignored. It was only
[00:18:32] in 2022 that the Indian government made wearing seat belts in the
[00:18:36] back mandatory. after the death of a billionaire in a
[00:18:39] collision while he was not
[00:18:41] buckled up.
[00:18:46] In 2023, two-wheeler drivers accounted for half
[00:18:49] of the 17,000 people killed on Indian roads.
[00:18:53] The absence of helmet use or the use of cheap helmets
[00:18:57] sold for a few euros and not compliant is regularly pointed
[00:19:00] out. In Mumbai, Karan Desai is
[00:19:03] a road safety trainer. He warns new
[00:19:07] drivers. against these poor quality
[00:19:09] equipment, there are different types of helmets on
[00:19:13] the Indian market,
[00:19:15] look at this low-end helmet, when a car runs over it, it breaks
[00:19:19] completely, however, a good quality helmet, as you can
[00:19:23] see, absorbs the weight of the car,
[00:19:27] Karan primarily addresses young people, for him, their lack
[00:19:30] of driving experience makes them the most vulnerable group to accidents,
[00:19:34] most road deaths, most accidents... concern
[00:19:38] 18-35 year olds, so if we target them and they retain what we teach them
[00:19:41] during this training, it will clearly help them once on the road to feel
[00:19:45] safer, and it can also protect other
[00:19:48] users. The idea is really to instill in them a
[00:19:51] culture of safety from the start. Prevention
[00:19:55] campaigns may be multiplying, but another scourge
[00:19:58] continues to claim lives on Indian roads. Very often,
[00:20:01] emergency response is too late.
[00:20:04] Swarnendubos lost his best friend in a road
[00:20:08] accident in 2023. Pillouch, 30 years old,
[00:20:11] was riding his motorcycle when another driver hit him from behind.
[00:20:15] Seriously injured in the head, he lay on the ground for 30 minutes
[00:20:19] without anyone coming to his rescue.
[00:20:22] The ambulance never
[00:20:23] arrived.
[00:20:27] Nobody stopped to help him. Nobody took even a few moments for my
[00:20:30] friend, not even 5 minutes. They could have at least called the
[00:20:33] police. A life is clearly worth nothing on Indian roads today.
[00:20:38] We really need to show more
[00:20:39] empathy,
[00:20:43] in the last 10 years, the Indian government has made road
[00:20:47] safety one of its priorities,
[00:20:50] particularly by modernizing its infrastructure. The
[00:20:53] highway network has grown from 9,000 to 140,000
[00:20:57] km. But several projects quickly showed construction
[00:21:00] defects, turning some roads into deadly
[00:21:04] traps. This is what Chatania
[00:21:06] Patil observed. This 29-year-old engineer has made it his
[00:21:10] mission to identify the multiple obstacles that can endanger
[00:21:14] the lives of
[00:21:14] motorists.
[00:21:20] You see, this barrier was hit by a vehicle and there are no more
[00:21:24] reflective elements. So
[00:21:26] if it stays on the ground, other drivers risk not seeing the
[00:21:29] diversion. That's why when I come across them during my
[00:21:32] journeys,
[00:21:35] I put them back in place. Last year, Chatanya
[00:21:39] traveled more than 500 km on foot along the highway connecting
[00:21:42] the city of Mumbai to the region of Goa. Documenting on
[00:21:46] social media, every pothole, every poorly designed section.
[00:21:50] or in a state of
[00:21:50] disrepair,
[00:21:57] the goal is to raise public awareness of the state of the
[00:22:00] road network and push authorities to
[00:22:02] act.
[00:22:06] the highway have still not been
[00:22:08] repaired.
[00:22:14] But this section has not been renovated. If a motorist
[00:22:17] arrives at high speed on this lane, imagine. what that will
[00:22:20] cause, the vehicle will fall into this gap, this situation must stop, that's
[00:22:24] why I keep calling on the authorities, they must intervene and repair this,
[00:22:28] it's their duty. The government has set itself the goal
[00:22:32] of halving the number of deaths on the roads by
[00:22:35] 2030, by relying on artificial intelligence,
[00:22:38] but without detailing concrete measures, a colossal
[00:22:41] challenge, on average, one person dies every
[00:22:44] 3 minutes on Indian
[00:22:46] roads.
[00:30:07] Hello everyone and welcome to let's talk about it, here are the headlines for this
[00:30:11] Monday, the oldest market in Paris, went up in smoke, the Marché des
[00:30:15] Enfants Rouges in the 3rd arrondissement, it was ravaged by a fire last
[00:30:18] night, nothing is left, Alexandra Carini is on
[00:30:21] site. The hardest part is yet to come for Raphael Gluxmann,
[00:30:27] the so-called social democratic left, but he now needs to unite a political
[00:30:31] family that is more than divided. on the question of an alliance with La France insoumise
[00:30:35] while Jean-Luc Mélenchon gave him a show of force yesterday in Claire
[00:30:38] Montferrant and then the Houthi rebels in Yemen struck Saudi
[00:30:41] Arabia all weekend the latest drones and missiles hit Riyadh airport last
[00:30:45] night, at least one person died. Donald Trump
[00:30:49] will he come to the aid of the Saudis? The question is
[00:30:52] posed.