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20261105 003000 UTC
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[00:00:00] not a single issue, that is, the single issue and I believe he says it in one of the passages of the
[00:00:03] book, he does not want to reduce this woman to
[00:00:06] tragic, and that gradually,
[00:00:10] little by little, we will
[00:00:12] open for Serbia, the door to rectify the era, but we will especially think of this woman's destiny which is
[00:00:16] extremely moving and more and more, the more
[00:00:20] delay in implementing the Court's we delve into her life, the destiny of women also and also the
[00:00:22] treatment by the police, in particular, of the investigation
[00:00:26] because she is a woman, he has a passage at one point.
[00:00:30] where he says that the commissioner, in fact, says well, she had breasts, I don't know
[00:00:33] how, and it's the only description he gives of this
[00:00:37] dead woman and at that moment Philip calls the
[00:00:40] descriptions of
[00:00:41] European Commission has proposed a reform of Maigret, in fact, of Simenon in Maigret and indeed in Maigret he
[00:00:45] quotes the senses in fact, it's very very astonishing
[00:00:49] and this play of mirrors with Maigret's investigations, he
[00:00:52] read all of Maigret and Maigret is one of the characters in the book
[00:00:54] uh creates, however, indeed
[00:00:58] a reflection on the... and especially what we have hopefully
[00:01:02] gained with regard to this view of the
[00:01:05] female condition, whether through
[00:01:09] yeah and his documentary work on it and archive is quite impressive to
[00:01:12] transcribe this era. So, Philippe Genada had in front of him
[00:01:16] Yannick Haenel for "The Solitude of Teachers Is Infinite",
[00:01:19] Clémentine Meloy for "Something I Thought I Had Lost" and Sylvain Prudhomme
[00:01:23] for "On the Other Side of the Lake". Well, I admit I had a slight preference for the latter, which took us into these
[00:01:27] mountain landscapes, there too for... an investigation, but something
[00:01:31] entirely different about our relationship with nature and the desire to live differently. Did
[00:01:35] you have a favorite from the bookstore? Well, in fact,
[00:01:38] we had, uh, after uh, a few rather
[00:01:42] tumultuous weeks, this literary season has been, we'll talk about it, eventful or
[00:01:45] rather eventful, we had arrived at a final that was actually very calm,
[00:01:49] very calm in the good sense of the term, since we had four authors with
[00:01:53] four good books that each
[00:01:55] had brought before the Court of Justice of corresponded to their own universes and truly particular universes.
[00:01:58] Uh, and it could have been any of the
[00:02:01] what it is... the primacy of Union four, in fact, the issue is not, there were four good books in the final and that was
[00:02:05] actually rather calm compared to that and for example,
[00:02:08] Yannick Haenel's is a very very beautiful book, also very
[00:02:12] well, and so, which is undoubtedly the most beautiful title of the season, "The Solitude of Teachers is Infinite."
[00:02:15] What a title, and with this resonance with current events, which
[00:02:18] necessarily attracts I imagine, readers, and we
[00:02:22] will note, however, that the laureate is again a
[00:02:25] man. In 124 editions, the Goncourt has crowned only 13
[00:02:29] women, either alone, at least once out of 10, and this rate has not
[00:02:32] changed much until today, while women, we remind you, have written 53
[00:02:36] % of the novels registered in 2025 by
[00:02:39] the legal deposit observatory of the National Library of France.
[00:02:43] Parity, we're not quite there yet at the Goncourt, it still
[00:02:46] has work to do. And since we're talking about figures,
[00:02:49] Stanislas, for 10 years, the books awarded the
[00:02:53] ambushed China, we are going to talk about Goncourt have sold at least 200,000 copies in the year of
[00:02:56] their victory. That continues in subsequent years, almost 500...
[00:03:00] for Laurent Mauvignier, so for last year, "The Empty House," you notice it, I imagine,
[00:03:04] also in bookstores, for
[00:03:07] readers, the red banner is really a
[00:03:10] disputes between states and EU guarantee of quality, this one in fact is the only prize that systematically
[00:03:13] multiplies, that is to say that even a very criticized competition, even a competition that is perhaps
[00:03:16] weak, it will be a sale, typically in
[00:03:19] the bookstore, a competition, well, it's
[00:03:21] prohibited any mention of 300 copies, he has very few books that I sell 300 copies a
[00:03:25] year in fact, so that means that even a
[00:03:28] competition not... not really important or one like that remains
[00:03:32] a very big sale and for example in recent
[00:03:35] years, Andrea Bescond's "Veiller sur elle," uh, it's coming back in
[00:03:39] January, we're very impatient, uh, sold
[00:03:42] 250,000 copies, that's it, and after that, don't forget that there's the paperback
[00:03:46] release, there's the amplification of the paperback, we're talking about Mauvignier, Mauvignier
[00:03:50] still doesn't exist in paperback, we still sell it extremely well and I think
[00:03:53] at Christmas we're going to give it away a lot again, so it's really a
[00:03:56] upheaval for the author, it's an economic upheaval, we remind you that the prize
[00:04:00] is not endowed, that's right, only a small symbolic check of 10 euros,
[00:04:04] so when Philippe Genada hopes to find his quiet and isolated life again, it won't be
[00:04:07] for right away.
[00:04:10] We can tell him, we were just talking about it, it's true that the
[00:04:14] race for this Goncourt prize 2026 was marked by the
[00:04:18] controversy that is somewhat stirring up the
[00:04:21] publishing world right now, the one concerning the book by
[00:04:24] Tellison Aurélien, it was that of Mourir, which appeared on the lists of
[00:04:28] many literary prizes, the Canadian author... of Haitian origin who was accused
[00:04:31] of using artificial intelligence for
[00:04:34] the writing of this very noticed first novel, suspicions confirmed
[00:04:37] since by his Canadian publishing house who terminated his
[00:04:40] contract and his name was therefore eliminated from all the lists of all the
[00:04:44] prizes. Stanislas Rigo, what is your view on all that,
[00:04:48] is it also a concern in bookstores for
[00:04:50] readers? No, I think, well, it's a
[00:04:54] question, this affair, it's above all a great
[00:04:57] sadness, it's a great sadness because we loved this book so much
[00:05:01] in fact, and when I say sadness it's not that he was served, we
[00:05:04] don't know exactly what happened, maybe indeed, well, I'm
[00:05:08] willing to believe that the whole book was written by AI, but at that point, go ahead and
[00:05:12] write such a beautiful book, in fact, by pressing a
[00:05:14] button. And I loved this book so much,
[00:05:17] uh, I read it twice, I received the author, it
[00:05:20] really broke my heart, really. Should there be a mention,
[00:05:23] perhaps, written with AI? Is this something we could
[00:05:27] imagine, in fact, in all the crystallization of the
[00:05:30] debates, there have been so many debates about it, in fact, what has been very, very
[00:05:34] little heard is what is, however, one of the keys, in my opinion, to the problem of the
[00:05:38] book, which is that the book is not bad, the book is formidable, in fact, and it's
[00:05:42] that which... in fact, I can't recompose myself with respect
[00:05:45] to the attitude, me, the reader, it's a book that made me cry and
[00:05:49] uh, that doesn't happen to me very often,
[00:05:51] and so I don't know what to do with these tears
[00:05:55] now that they tell me that maybe it's not him, and so
[00:05:59] on, but we'll remember the quality of the book, the quality of the book,
[00:06:02] uh, one last word, we are in the middle of the literary prize season,
[00:06:05] so there's the Goncourt, the Renaudot prize was awarded shortly
[00:06:09] after to François-Henri Des Eras for Le Palais, the
[00:06:12] Medicis prize was for Philippe Vassé, a word because we both, I think,
[00:06:16] share a love for this book, for Hanne
[00:06:19] Godard's, "Nous aussi," published by Act Sud, she received the Prix
[00:06:22] Décembre, she was gradually eliminated from all the other prizes, but
[00:06:26] it's still a favorite, a very big favorite, and many of us have a big favorite for
[00:06:30] Hanne Godard's, read Hanne Godard,
[00:06:33] "Nous aussi," it's a magnificent book about
[00:06:36] family, it's carried by brilliant writing, it's at Acte
[00:06:40] Sud, it's in the sales, it's very, very high, although the author is little
[00:06:43] known, or not known at all, and it has been at the top of novel sales for weeks,
[00:06:47] and rightly so, it's a very great book and it's true that for me it was
[00:06:50] a great discovery of this literary season and
[00:06:54] I hope we will be able to carry it for a long time yet, yes, with this refrain
[00:06:58] around the use of the pronoun "on" which, well, encompasses these
[00:07:02] silences in the family and the violence also done to children, I won't tell
[00:07:50] Hello everyone, welcome to Ici l'Europe on France 24 and Radio
[00:07:54] France Internationale. With a disruptive American president like
[00:07:58] Donald Trump who challenges international law, an expansionist
[00:08:02] Vladimir Putin and an
[00:08:05] the rule of law in Europe, and for that we welcome
[00:08:08] the president of the Court of Justice of the European Union.
[00:08:13] Hello, this institution, I specify,
[00:08:16] European, is based in Luxembourg and interprets European
[00:08:19] legislation, settles
[00:08:23] institutions, but also sometimes those opposing individuals, businesses,
[00:08:26] NGOs to an institution that may have violated their rights. The Court of
[00:08:30] Justice is composed of 27 judges, 11 advocates general and it is
[00:08:33] presided over by you since 11 years, a Belgian, so CON
[00:08:37] Leenards, hello. Do you, globally, think
[00:08:41] that the rule of law in Europe is
[00:08:45] weakened and under attack right now? I believe
[00:08:48] that the rule of law in Europe is still
[00:08:52] very strong and very respected. In
[00:08:54] reality, the European Union itself is an
[00:08:58] expression of the rule of law. These are
[00:09:01] sovereign states in Europe, who have
[00:09:04] concluded treaties among themselves to
[00:09:07] jointly exercise parts
[00:09:10] of their own sovereignty.
[00:09:13] because they can do so more
[00:09:17] effectively and more efficiently, by
[00:09:20] this, I am already paraphrasing the profound
[00:09:23] meaning of the principle of subsidiarity, that is, what can be dealt with at the local level must
[00:09:27] be dealt with at the local level, what can be dealt with at the
[00:09:31] national level, at the national level, and at the European level, well,
[00:09:34] there we deal with it at the European level.
[00:09:37] Exactly,
[00:09:39] what can only be dealt with at that level. To be
[00:09:43] effective, that means at the lowest cost and
[00:10:01] celebrated by thousands of Serbs in the street. The list of students
[00:10:05] from civil society won the legislative elections with
[00:10:08] 140 seats out of 250 against the ruling party.
[00:10:25] Tacos reacted after almost 2 years of demonstrations in favor of
[00:10:28] democracy, the rule of law and the fight against corruption, Serbs
[00:10:32] mobilized in unprecedented numbers, a new chapter can
[00:10:37] the EU is open and we are ready to move forward
[00:10:40] together. Canada is also continuing its negotiations
[00:10:43] with the EU. While some member states like France contest the
[00:10:47] associated member status which does not exist in European texts, all
[00:10:51] support this rapprochement. A summit took place on Thursday and Friday in
[00:10:55] Montreal to define the contours of this new strategic partnership,
[00:10:58] seen by both parties as an alternative to increasingly
[00:11:02] unstable relations with the United States. The
[00:11:06] the Frontex agency which would further tighten European migration policy,
[00:11:10] at stake, an increase in Frontex's budget and staff, but also
[00:11:14] the possibility of intervening outside the Union's borders to send
[00:11:18] people from third countries even before they reach the EU. This proposal
[00:11:21] raises serious concerns from human rights organizations. As a
[00:11:25] reminder, the Court of Justice of the European Union ruled in December
[00:11:28] 2025 that Frontex was responsible for guaranteeing the fundamental
[00:11:32] rights of individuals and the existence of written
[00:11:35] return decisions during joint return operations.
[00:11:39] Koen Lenaerts uh has
[00:11:41] indeed received referrals against certain countries, this was often the case against
[00:11:45] Hungary and Poland accused of authoritarian
[00:11:47] excesses. Poland now has the pro-European
[00:11:51] government of Donald Tusk and Hungary has also changed government. You have
[00:11:55] not missed it with Peter Magyar, do you have fewer
[00:11:58] referrals concerning them and above all, do you believe them capable of
[00:12:01] restoring a good rule of law? The good news
[00:12:04] here is indeed that we
[00:12:07] have fewer referrals, but above all, we have even had
[00:12:11] a case where the European Commission
[00:12:15] withdrew an action for infringement that it
[00:12:20] the European Union against Hungary because
[00:12:23] of the national sovereignty law
[00:12:27] that had been adopted during the previous government's
[00:12:31] mandate, the current government
[00:12:35] then
[00:12:37] approved by the Hungarian
[00:12:41] Parliament, a law that withdraws this
[00:12:44] former legislation, after which the European Commission
[00:12:48] withdrew the action, it was really a case of
[00:12:51] constitutional scope at the level of the entire
[00:12:55] European Union, and so it proves
[00:12:58] that finally the rule of law, the court
[00:13:01] can issue the boundaries of what
[00:13:05] the rule of law entails, but like any judicial
[00:13:08] decision, and this applies in all countries in the world,
[00:13:12] the implementation of judicial decisions is a
[00:13:16] task of the political, legislative
[00:13:20] and executive authorities. Let's take a concrete example, Mr. President, this year,
[00:13:24] precisely, uh... your Court of Justice of the European Union judged the law of
[00:13:27] 2021 intended to introduce severe measures against
[00:13:31] pedophiles and protect minors, but which de facto in Hungary
[00:13:35] restricted access to LGBT content in media and
[00:13:38] bookstores. The parliament with this new
[00:13:41] pro-European majority repealed this law which
[00:13:46] homosexuality, so jurisprudence moves the lines, right?
[00:13:50] Exactly, it's another example and I am
[00:13:53] grateful that you cited it. where therefore Hungary
[00:13:56] has adapted its legislation, so
[00:14:00] after our judgment, that is, to implement
[00:14:02] our judgment, all of this
[00:14:05] proves that the rule of law works in
[00:14:09] Europe, and that's why I also didn't
[00:14:12] speak of the rule of law in terms
[00:14:15] of conflict or in terms of conflict with
[00:14:19] our member states, no, the member states have all
[00:14:22] committed to respecting these common values that I
[00:14:26] cited, when a member state crosses the
[00:14:29] red lines, that is, the essential content of these
[00:14:33] values, the court must state it in its
[00:14:36] jurisprudence, and the member states, and the two
[00:14:39] Hungarian examples demonstrate the
[00:14:42] implementation of the Court of Justice's judgment. You have also been seized by the European Commission for
[00:14:46] infringement of the rule of law in the case of Slovakia under Robert Fico,
[00:14:50] who is a populist accused of dismantling anti-corruption measures
[00:14:53] and not giving access for defendants to a
[00:14:57] lawyer, uh, and if this state, since
[00:15:01] the government has not changed, does not comply with your binding opinions,
[00:15:04] what happens? In such a case, when the court
[00:15:08] finds the infringement, it is
[00:15:10] incumbent, in line with what I have just said, on the political
[00:15:14] power, both at the European level and at the national
[00:15:17] level, to implement the judgment. At the European level, it is
[00:15:21] the European Commission, the executive, if you will,
[00:15:24] which monitors the implementation of our judgment by the
[00:15:28] member state. If the member state were to
[00:15:31] remain in default of doing so, the Commission can
[00:15:35] launch a second infringement procedure before
[00:15:38] the Court of Justice with fines and demand
[00:15:42] exactly financial sanctions. These financial
[00:15:45] sanctions can be either a fine,
[00:15:49] technically it's called a lump sum, uh,
[00:15:52] accompanied by a penalty payment per day of
[00:15:57] judgment, and these financial
[00:16:00] sanctions really have an impact
[00:16:04] because, uh, they are collected by...
[00:16:07] afterwards by a withholding from the funds due
[00:16:11] by the European Union to the member state concerned, and
[00:16:14] so normally that is enough for the
[00:16:18] member state to comply with the rule of law here, that's what
[00:16:22] happened in Hungary, there was a yes but wait, these financial
[00:16:25] sanctions, these are the member states
[00:16:28] themselves who have foreseen this through
[00:16:31] successive modifications of the initial treaties
[00:16:34] in which there were no such fines,
[00:16:38] uh, so precisely to
[00:16:41] ensure that all member states implement the judgments
[00:16:44] of the Court of Justice because otherwise equality
[00:16:48] between member states and their citizens before
[00:16:52] Union law would no longer be ensured, that is what we are
[00:16:55] talking about when we talk about the rule of law. Let's also talk about some sensitive issues
[00:16:59] such as frozen Russian assets,
[00:17:03] especially in Belgium, they are through the clearing system.
[00:17:06] Belgium, which fears legal proceedings for its
[00:17:10] country by the Russians, does that seem
[00:17:13] to you, as a good jurist, a serious
[00:17:16] legal threat? In reality, the legal threats we are
[00:17:20] talking about are not played out directly before the
[00:17:24] courtroom of the Court of Justice of the European Union, that
[00:17:28] being said, all the decisions taken at
[00:17:31] the European level can be
[00:17:34] challenged before the Court of Justice of the European
[00:17:37] Union, so it is not excluded that a
[00:17:41] case, whatever the decision taken, will still
[00:17:44] reach us, so that's why on the specific case, I cannot
[00:17:48] comment, but the questions we have on the
[00:17:52] Russian sanctions are important, because these
[00:17:55] are generally Russian oligarchs who have
[00:17:59] been listed, as we say, so
[00:18:02] that is, included, uh, on a list of
[00:18:05] people against whom sanctions are in
[00:18:09] force, and these people obviously contest
[00:18:13] the legality of this, an example that concerns
[00:18:16] France in reality, it was Russia Today
[00:18:19] France which had been put already in
[00:18:23] 2022 on the list of EU sanctions and
[00:18:27] which attacked this decision before
[00:18:30] the Court of Justice of the European Union and so
[00:18:34] there Russia Today said, "Ah, I cannot be
[00:18:37] put on this list because I claim freedom,
[00:18:41] uh, of the press." So the Tribunal
[00:18:44] decided that freedom of the press has its limits
[00:18:48] when the media outlet is financed by a third
[00:18:51] country and is therefore an instrument of propaganda that
[00:18:55] incites hatred between peoples and
[00:18:58] war. So there you see again these values on which
[00:19:02] the European Union is founded,
[00:19:04] also frame the implementation of fundamental
[00:19:07] rights here, freedom of the press. So, precisely since we're talking about freedom, we're
[00:19:11] going to talk about another court, but this will interest you, the
[00:19:15] Sakharov Prize for Freedom of Thought was awarded to the International
[00:19:19] Criminal Court. When you see that a Trump
[00:19:22] administration, which is angry about the indictment of Benjamin Netanyahu concerning
[00:19:25] Gaza, brandishes sanctions and plans a freeze of assets in the United States and
[00:19:29] a ban on entry into the United States for all personnel of the International
[00:19:33] Criminal Court, does that frighten you, this desire to
[00:19:36] undermine the guarantors of international law, judges
[00:19:40] first? Fear is perhaps a tiny bit exaggerated,
[00:19:43] but it is a huge concern because
[00:19:47] since the Second World
[00:19:50] War, since the declaration of Robert
[00:19:53] Schuman on so
[00:19:56] the communal Europe as he saw it, concrete
[00:19:59] achievements that create a de facto
[00:20:03] solidarity, so in fact the relations
[00:20:06] between states in Europe have
[00:20:09] been based on rules, the rules of
[00:20:13] law that have been agreed between
[00:20:16] states that respect each other and are
[00:20:19] supportive. The International Criminal Court is an
[00:20:23] expression of the same idea but at the global
[00:20:25] level regarding the prosecution
[00:20:29] of the most heinous crimes which are
[00:20:33] crimes against humanity, and
[00:20:35] therefore I told you the...
[00:20:37] human is the first value of the European Union so
[00:20:41] yes the judges of the International Criminal
[00:20:44] Court are our brothers and sisters just
[00:20:48] like the judges of the European Court of Human Rights, so all
[00:20:52] these courts that strive to make
[00:20:55] the law prevail, the rule of law, to
[00:20:58] protect citizens against the arbitrariness of
[00:21:01] a power, of an authoritarian power, of an
[00:21:05] oligarchic power, those in power who
[00:21:08] make citizens believe that the rule of
[00:21:12] law is the opposite of democracy, it is in
[00:21:16] reality with a view to a
[00:21:20] capacity of judges who could limit
[00:21:23] arbitrariness in the exercise of their power, but if
[00:21:27] you look at the great powers in the
[00:21:30] world, the leaders in place
[00:21:34] are actually much more, uh,
[00:21:37] an exercise of personal power, in a sense,
[00:21:40] a personal power where the
[00:21:44] press is neutralized, judges are neutralized, political
[00:21:47] opposition is discredited, that is to say, all pluralistic,
[00:21:51] tolerant, inclusive democracy, in
[00:21:55] reality, isn't it? and therefore in fact neutralized.
[00:21:59] The European states that founded the European Union
[00:22:02] have therefore committed to this, and have even
[00:22:05] committed, it is Article 3, paragraph 5 of the Treaty on
[00:22:09] European Union, to respond to
[00:22:12] through their international relations
[00:22:16] with the rest of the world, the same values as...
[00:22:23] Uh, in France, you can see that we are on the eve of a presidential
[00:22:26] election, where the party leading the polls, the Rassemblement
[00:22:30] National, defends the primacy of national law over European law,
[00:22:33] uh, and therefore, that a
[00:22:36] state can decide alone on the rules
[00:22:39] without European supervision,
[00:22:41] indeed,
[00:22:43] what does that inspire in you? I take your question, uh, as
[00:22:47] an opportunity to express
[00:22:51] law and in reality it's very
[00:22:54] simple, when you make a
[00:22:56] contract,
[00:22:59] and this is what the member states have done with the other 26
[00:23:02] member states, each member state, France has concluded a
[00:23:06] contract with the 26 other member states
[00:23:09] uh of the European Union and we call this contract the
[00:23:13] treaties and all the rules made by the
[00:23:16] European Parliament and the Council of the European Union in co
[00:23:19] decision, the legislative acts of the Union,
[00:23:23] the primacy, it is quite simply
[00:23:25] the expression of a principle known since
[00:23:29] time immemorial in international law, pacta
[00:23:33] sunt servanda, we must respect
[00:23:36] our word, and that applies to France, to
[00:23:39] Germany, to Belgium, to Poland, to Hungary, to
[00:23:43] all 27 member states, and the reason
[00:23:46] is very clear, if a member state
[00:23:50] were to say
[00:23:52] unilaterally: no, I didn't understand
[00:23:55] it that way, I have to do
[00:23:59] what I choose now, in reality,
[00:24:02] that state breaks the contract to which
[00:24:06] it committed, just like a private person, as you know,
[00:24:09] we can't do that either, this primacy is
[00:24:13] the ultimate guarantee, once again,
[00:24:16] of equality among member states and their citizens.
[00:24:20] Citizens are equal before the treaty. National
[00:24:23] elections are also European elections, because they
[00:24:27] will determine how that member state will assert
[00:24:30] its point of view in the common exercise
[00:24:34] of those aspects of national sovereignty that have been entrusted
[00:29:36] Volunteers are trying to convince the rest
[00:29:39] of them.
[00:29:44] political and business leaders from 130
[00:29:47] countries.
[00:29:52] Today, the atmosphere is very different in
[00:29:55] the
[00:30:01] city.
[00:30:22] thank you for joining us in Strasbourg in a European Parliament, currently
[00:30:26] focused on Washington and holding its breath before the results of the
[00:30:29] midterms, the mid-term elections in the United States. which
[00:30:32] renews Congress. A majority of European leaders and parties
[00:30:36] quietly wish for a defeat of Donald Trump in this election and
[00:30:39] a weakening of his policy, which seeks to challenge international law
[00:30:43] and multilateralism. In recent weeks, the American president
[00:30:46] has once again worried Europeans by lifting sanctions against
[00:30:50] Russia and concluding an agreement to import Russian diesel to
[00:30:54] the United States, which significantly weakens Ukraine and its
[00:30:57] allies. Yes, so Donald Trump hopes.