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[00:00:22] thank you for joining us in Strasbourg in a European Parliament currently focused
[00:00:26] on Washington and holding its breath before the results of the
[00:00:30] midterm elections in the United States, which are renewing
[00:00:33] Congress. A majority of European leaders and parties quietly hope for a
[00:00:37] defeat of Donald Trump in this election and a weakening of his
[00:00:40] policy, which seeks to challenge international law and
[00:00:44] multilateralism. In recent weeks, the American president has once
[00:00:47] again worried Europeans by lifting sanctions against Russia and by
[00:00:51] concluding an agreement to import Russian diesel to the United States,
[00:00:55] which significantly weakens Ukraine and its allies. Yes, so
[00:00:58] Donald Trump hopes. to thus lower gasoline prices on the American
[00:01:02] market and resolve an energy crisis that he himself
[00:01:05] provoked by starting the war in Iran without consulting his European
[00:01:09] allies. He also attacks international institutions, symbols of
[00:01:13] multilateralism that he doesn't like. Latest
[00:01:16] target: the International Criminal Court. And finally, in Europe, he tries
[00:01:20] to boost far-right parties favorable to his anti-immigration,
[00:01:24] anti-woke values, interfering in electoral campaigns
[00:01:27] with the power of social networks and American digital platforms.
[00:01:31] To discuss this today, three MEPs: Chloé Ridel, hello.
[00:01:34] Hello, you are a French socialist MEP, author of the book
[00:01:37] "Gémininisme" which explores the links
[00:01:40] interests of all of between patriarchy and international relations, a book published by Stock editions. Facing you,
[00:01:44] András László, hello. Hello, you are a Hungarian MEP, member of the
[00:01:48] Patriots for Europe group, located on the far right of the European
[00:01:52] responsible today for the increase in energy Parliament, a group, we specify, founded by Marine Le Pen and Viktor Orbán,
[00:01:55] the former Hungarian Prime Minister, a fervent supporter of Donald Trump. And with us
[00:01:59] also, Željana Zovko, hello, you are a Croatian
[00:02:02] MEP, Vice-President of the European Parliament and member of the European People's
[00:02:06] Party group on the right of the Parliament. So, Chloé Ridel, does
[00:02:09] the European Parliament and the European Union
[00:02:13] in their majority hope for a clear defeat
[00:02:16] of Donald Trump in the midterm elections? Donald
[00:02:20] Trump, who has constantly sought to weaken Europe since his return to
[00:02:24] Washington. It would clearly be in the interest of the European Union and
[00:02:27] Europeans for Donald Trump to stumble
[00:02:30] in the midterms because Donald Trump has only gone against
[00:02:33] European interests. He wages war everywhere, he is still
[00:02:36] responsible for the fact that the price of a liter of gasoline has reached nearly €3
[00:02:40] in some EU countries, so he impoverishes us, he makes us
[00:02:43] insecure, he destroys, as you said in the introduction, international
[00:02:47] judicial institutions like the International Criminal Court, whose headquarters
[00:02:51] are located in The Hague in Europe, by sanctioning its judges and
[00:02:55] now by sanctioning the institution itself. So I
[00:02:59] hope... that this type of brutal
[00:03:02] power stops, takes a symbolic blow. If Donald Trump
[00:03:06] loses his midterms, it will be more of a symbolic blow than anything else,
[00:03:09] because the reality is that he can continue to
[00:03:12] govern with notably decrees against
[00:03:16] which the House and the Senate are powerless. I take
[00:03:19] the example of the decree that provides for sanctions against the
[00:03:22] International Criminal Court. Congress can do nothing against that.
[00:03:26] So we shouldn't hope if
[00:03:29] there's a victory for... that everything will change for us Europeans,
[00:03:32] that Trump will stop abandoning Ukrainian
[00:03:35] civilians who were
[00:03:37] 98 which killed in September, plus 85% of Ukrainian
[00:03:40] civilians killed, 400 civilians per month. We shouldn't hope that
[00:03:44] all this pro-Putin policy of the United States
[00:03:47] will stop, like the deeply
[00:03:51] anti-rule of law and freedom
[00:03:54] policy of Donald Trump, unfortunately. What are the
[00:03:57] expectations of the European right regarding these midterms?
[00:04:09] European judges of the European
[00:04:14] and we have parliamentary diplomacy. I agree that the loss of
[00:04:17] two of
[00:04:21] two chambers does not mean
[00:04:24] a change in US
[00:04:27] foreign policy. We must remember
[00:04:31] that these elections are elections for each state
[00:04:34] by state, and there is division even
[00:04:37] within the Republicans, there is within
[00:04:40] the MAGA movement that is against the Iran war because
[00:04:44] they see what it brings to the
[00:04:46] United States, and also, there is a great
[00:04:50] division among the Republicans
[00:04:53] on the behavior towards Ukraine because they are also, they
[00:04:57] have great support for Ukraine, and
[00:05:01] I would not confuse these
[00:05:04] elections with a change, a pro or anti-Trump referendum.
[00:05:08] You say it's not that, it's also national and also
[00:05:11] regional elections.
[00:05:20] Would a victory for this president in the midterms, a
[00:05:23] victory that, according to polls,
[00:05:26] is nevertheless fading, be good news for Europe when we see
[00:05:30] that he has constantly made us a scapegoat? Ultimately, he constantly attacks
[00:05:34] Europeans. Well, in the last two years, what we have
[00:05:38] seen is that President Trump's
[00:05:41] administration wants a
[00:05:43] rebalancing of the transatlantic
[00:05:45] relationship. US foreign
[00:05:49] policy and American strategy
[00:05:51] demand that European allies take more
[00:05:55] responsibility for their security, for our security
[00:05:59] here in Europe. I think that expecting an American
[00:06:02] president, whether Democrat or Republican, to
[00:06:06] prioritize European interests and try to
[00:06:09] resolve the conflicts in Europe that affect
[00:06:12] us the most, that's a bit naive. Their
[00:06:15] strategy is very clearly, and it was published in their
[00:06:18] strategy, that they want a new partnership
[00:06:22] with Europe. They want a Europe that is more powerful,
[00:06:26] that is more independent, that is strong in its identity,
[00:06:29] and that can weigh in when necessary and that can help the
[00:06:33] United States, because precisely the power relations at
[00:06:36] the global level are changing, and the United States needs
[00:06:40] an ally in Europe that is strong, that is independent, that
[00:06:44] is responsible, that is capable, which it is
[00:06:47] not for now,
[00:06:50] independent. You say Donald Trump wants an
[00:06:54] independent Europe while interfering in elections when they
[00:06:57] happen in Europe. You say Donald Trump wants a
[00:07:00] strong Europe when he extorts us with customs
[00:07:04] duties and brutal commercial negotiations that
[00:07:08] subject us to permanent blackmail, that
[00:07:11] weakens the purchasing power of our fellow citizens by launching
[00:07:14] thoughtless and
[00:07:16] inconsiderate wars. The war in Ukraine was not
[00:07:20] launched by Mr. Donald Trump. He was elected in
[00:07:23] 2020. We cannot say, in fact, he was the only one to
[00:07:27] say that he wants to do something to restore peace in
[00:07:30] Ukraine. European diplomacy refuses to do anything.
[00:07:34] It was Mr. Orbán in 2024 who tried to
[00:07:37] negotiate, and this house, this parliament
[00:07:40] attacked Mr.
[00:07:57] we will talk about the relationship between
[00:08:00] Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin and this agreement he concluded to
[00:08:03] import Russian diesel to the United States. He is trying to
[00:08:07] lower the price of gasoline on the American market and in Europe, even
[00:08:11] Donald Trump's allies were outraged by this lifting
[00:08:14] of sanctions against the Kremlin. Let's listen to the Italian leader Giorgia
[00:08:18] Meloni.
[00:08:21] We must take into account the agreement on Russian diesel announced by the President of the
[00:08:24] United States, Donald Trump. This is a
[00:08:27] choice that I consider very risky. The outcome of this
[00:08:31] choice is uncertain, while the risks are evident: a
[00:08:35] legitimization of Moscow while its bombs continue to
[00:08:38] fall on Ukrainian cities, new revenues allowing for...
[00:08:51] as you said, but also traditionally close to the United States, reacted to
[00:08:55] this lifting of American sanctions against
[00:08:59] Russia, this agreement to import Russian
[00:09:01] gas concluded with Vladimir Putin, while we have based
[00:09:05] our entire strategy on precisely an embargo on Russian
[00:09:09] oil. I see this as
[00:09:13] a bad situation for Ukraine. We
[00:09:16] do not approve of this lifting of
[00:09:20] sanctions, and we think that we
[00:09:23] really need to get out of this situation, which is
[00:09:26] really sending a strong
[00:09:29] message to Ukrainians who are suffering at this
[00:09:32] moment, and there is no solidarity
[00:09:36] with them. But I see this, and I
[00:09:40] think that this situation
[00:09:43] must be overcome, but we need Republicans in Congress,
[00:09:47] in the Senate, to apply pressure
[00:09:50] to
[00:09:54] resolve this. It doesn't seem to be working for now. Donald Trump does
[00:09:57] strictly what he wants. It will work, it will work
[00:10:01] badly if he is left alone
[00:10:04] without any leverage after the
[00:10:07] military elections. and specifies that Hungary benefits from a
[00:10:11] derogation within the European Union to import Russian
[00:10:14] oil. Do you understand this agreement between Trump and Putin
[00:10:18] on Russian diesel and the American
[00:10:21] desire to weaken the Ukrainian president Volodymyr
[00:10:25] Zelensky more than ever, and even claim that the current
[00:10:28] fault, even though there is a war in Iran triggered by the
[00:10:32] United States? Well, our responsibility
[00:10:35] is European to ensure that energy
[00:10:38] prices in Europe are
[00:10:42] such that families and businesses in Europe
[00:10:45] can pay, can continue their activities,
[00:10:49] businesses, that families can pay for heating, for diesel,
[00:10:53] for oil, etc. Even if we have to buy Russian
[00:10:56] oil and finance Vladimir Putin's war, the
[00:10:59] promise from President Ursula von der Leyen and Joe
[00:11:03] Biden in 2022 when they announced the
[00:11:06] first sanction, the first sanctions
[00:11:09] against Russia, was that the sanctions would bring
[00:11:13] Russia to its knees and that they would have to end this war in
[00:11:17] Ukraine. It's been 4 years now, more than now, not
[00:11:21] won, they haven't won, but the effectiveness of the
[00:11:23] sanctions to end the war in Ukraine is
[00:11:27] terrible, the effect on the European economy is enormous,
[00:11:31] the price and the proportionality are not
[00:11:34] there, that's all that's happening, why, why in
[00:11:37] this situation don't European
[00:11:40] leaders do more, don't they try
[00:11:44] to do something to lower prices in
[00:11:46] Europe? So when we listen to you, it's always the
[00:11:50] fault of the Europeans, it's crazy to self-flagellate to this extent, it's never Putin's
[00:11:54] fault, it's never Trump's
[00:11:55] fault.
[00:11:59] content, you are very happy to be able to continue to
[00:12:02] buy Russian oil against the
[00:12:05] Europe, you act on your own, but you have nothing to
[00:12:09] say about the blockade of the Strait of Hormuz, which is the
[00:12:13] result of Donald Trump's policy and which is
[00:12:17] prices in Europe.
[00:12:20] Regarding Ukraine, I find that it is a terrible
[00:12:24] humanitarian situation, we must remember that because we don't talk
[00:12:28] about it, we don't talk about it anymore, we don't say anymore that people
[00:12:31] continue to die in Ukraine, innocent civilians, energy
[00:12:35] infrastructures that are constantly bombed by the
[00:12:39] Russians, the Americans have cut off
[00:12:42] intelligence and so they abandon Ukraine for the umpteenth
[00:12:45] time. There is only Europe left to support the Ukrainian resistance because it is
[00:12:49] in our interest because Putin is starting a war not only against
[00:12:52] Ukraine but against Europe as a whole. So we cannot
[00:12:55] give in to this Russia
[00:12:59] and we must continue to denounce it and be
[00:13:03] deeply supportive of Ukraine and
[00:13:07] and and maintain sanctions and finally
[00:13:10] diversify our energy supplies,
[00:13:14] that is why we must continue to support the Green Deal and in fact the right and
[00:13:17] far-right today in the European Parliament are doing the opposite,
[00:13:21] that is, we are not supporting Ukraine.
[00:13:36] We really need to be flexible, we need to tell people what we're doing here in Parliament to be flexible for the import of American
[00:13:39] gas. So, American gas
[00:13:43] to grant more American gas and always
[00:13:47] further delay the exit from energy. In the meantime, it's absurd. The International
[00:13:50] Criminal Court under sanctions. That doesn't shock you? The Criminal
[00:13:54] Court had problems with all American
[00:13:58] administrations. There was Article
[00:14:02] said that all American soldiers cannot be
[00:14:05] punished, but that's a very long story.
[00:14:08] I am already old enough to know the entire
[00:14:12] history of the International Criminal Code, and that's not something
[00:14:15] we're going to resolve here. András, Donald Trump
[00:14:19] decided on sanctions against the International Criminal Court. What do
[00:14:23] you think of these attacks against international justice? And
[00:14:27] finally, isn't it the same as when Viktor Orbán, when he led
[00:14:30] Hungary, also attacked
[00:14:34] Court of Justice? Isn't it an attack against our international law?
[00:14:38] The United States has never joined the International Criminal
[00:14:41] Court, and despite
[00:14:44] that, the International Criminal Court tries
[00:14:47] to punish Americans who are not
[00:14:51] under the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court, obviously.
[00:14:55] There will be measures taken by the
[00:14:58] United States. Same thing, the International Criminal Court tries
[00:15:02] to go and punish Israeli leaders who
[00:15:05] have also never joined
[00:15:09] the International Criminal Court. This is unacceptable. There
[00:15:12] are, there are international
[00:15:14] organizations that are created by certain states and then
[00:15:18] take on competencies or claim to have
[00:15:22] global, universal competencies that were never
[00:15:25] given to them. The International Criminal Court was created on
[00:15:29] the rubble of the 20th century, the worst crimes committed against
[00:15:33] civilians, many in Europe, and it carries an
[00:15:36] ideal that crimes of genocide, war crimes, crimes against
[00:15:39] humanity should not go unpunished. And it does not prosecute
[00:15:42] states, it prosecutes individuals, criminal
[00:15:46] individuals. I have been working for 2 years on American
[00:15:50] sanctions against the International Criminal Court, trying to alert the European
[00:15:53] Commission in Europe, public opinion, to
[00:15:57] push the European Commission to act by activating what is called the blocking
[00:16:00] regulation, which would allow to protect the International Criminal
[00:16:03] Court against the effect of American sanctions, and nothing has been done, nothing has been
[00:16:06] done. And Donald Trump started by sanctioning the judges, now he is sanctioning
[00:16:10] the entire institution, and it is a death threat against the court.
[00:16:14] So Donald Trump's intentions are clear. You say
[00:16:18] the American administration has always had a problem with the ICC, but
[00:16:21] today Donald Trump wants to dismantle the International Criminal Court,
[00:16:25] he says so in those terms, we cannot
[00:16:28] accept it. It took 50 years to build this court which is the heir to the Nuremberg
[00:16:31] tribunal that judged Nazi crimes, and
[00:16:35] here we are not only on a matter of European sovereignty but much
[00:16:39] broader, of a certain idea of human rights and international
[00:16:42] law, and that must be our task as Europeans
[00:16:46] and you say you are pro-European center, you must be in this
[00:16:50] fight. Thank you for having at least very well
[00:16:53] illustrated this debate, we will do specifically on the International Criminal
[00:16:57] Court next time. Very good continuation of programs on our
[00:17:00] channels.
[00:29:05] The jury pronounces,
[00:29:58] hello everyone and welcome to this edition of Actuel dedicated to the
[00:30:02] elections. midterms in the United States, the midterms
[00:30:05] are looking difficult for Donald Trump with the rising cost of living
[00:30:09] due to the war in Iran that he triggered in February, but
[00:30:12] his political record is also the methodical dismantling of
[00:30:16] women's rights, voluntary termination of pregnancy first and then his
[00:30:20] support for measures that will perhaps reduce the number of women
[00:30:23] who can vote in the United States, so how do
[00:30:27] women react to this policy, does this setback
[00:30:30] on their rights change their vote?
[00:30:33] To talk about it, I am pleased to speak today with Émilie Mitrand,
[00:30:36] hello, you are a historian and Americanist, professor at
[00:30:39] the University of Toulomb, and also with us Bris
[00:30:43] Lambert, you are a journalist and director, you notably signed the
[00:30:46] documentary "Weak Sex: America at War Against its Women" for
[00:30:50] which you have just received the Albert Londe Prize, congratulations to you and
[00:30:54] thank you both for responding to Actuel's invitation. Émilie, Donald
[00:30:57] Trump is directly attacking women's rights with...