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[00:00:00] by Sophie Vingadasalom and Kessy Wishoptai to be seen on France
[00:00:03] other Member States of 24. France 24 and RFI present.
[00:00:15] legislative acts of
[00:00:22] Hello everyone, welcome to Europe on France 24 and Radio
[00:00:26] France Internationale. With a disruptive American president like
[00:00:30] Donald Trump who challenges international law, an expansionist
[00:00:33] Vladimir Putin and an ambushed China, we will
[00:00:37] talk about the rule of law in Europe, and for that we
[00:00:40] welcome the president of the European Union Court of Justice,
[00:00:44] year, your European Union hello, this European institution,
[00:00:47] I should specify, is based in Luxembourg and interprets
[00:00:50] European law, settles disputes between states and EU
[00:00:54] institutions, but also sometimes those between individuals, businesses,
[00:00:58] NGOs and an institution that
[00:01:00] may have violated their rights. The Court of Justice is composed of 27
[00:01:05] prohibited any mention of judges, 11 advocates general and has been presided over by you for 11 years, a Belgian, Conne Lennart,
[00:01:09] hello, do you generally
[00:01:12] consider that the rule of law
[00:01:15] the press. So precisely in Europe is weakened and
[00:01:18] attacked at the moment? I believe that the rule of law
[00:01:21] in Europe is still very strong and very
[00:01:24] respected. In reality, the European Union
[00:01:28] itself is an expression of
[00:01:30] the rule of law. These are sovereign states
[00:01:34] in Europe that have concluded treaties
[00:01:37] President of the European Union among themselves to jointly
[00:01:40] exercise parts of their own
[00:01:43] sovereignty, because they can do it
[00:01:46] more effectively and more efficiently,
[00:01:50] by that, I am already paraphrasing
[00:01:53] the deep meaning of the principle of
[00:01:56] subsidiarity, that is to say what can be dealt with at the local level.
[00:02:00] It must be dealt with at the local level, what can be dealt with at the national level, at the
[00:02:03] national level and at the European level, well, there
[00:02:07] we have we deal
[00:02:10] with it exactly, what can only be dealt with at this
[00:02:14] level to be effective, that means at the lowest cost and
[00:02:18] with the greatest result, as every week, I suggest
[00:02:21] you news from our union, it's right now Europe in
[00:02:25] brief with Florine
[00:02:26] Hosphater.
[00:02:31] It's a historic victory celebrated by thousands of Serbs in the
[00:02:34] streets. The list of students from civil society won
[00:02:38] the legislative elections with 140 seats out of
[00:02:41] 250 against the party of nationalist leader Alexander
[00:02:44] Vučić. Serbia had applied for European Union membership
[00:02:48] in 2009, but negotiations stalled over Vutric's authoritarianism
[00:02:51] and pro-Kremlin stance. European Commissioner
[00:02:54] for Enlargement Martas reacted. After nearly 2 years
[00:02:58] of demonstrations in favor of democracy, the rule of law and the fight
[00:03:02] against corruption, Serbs mobilized in unprecedented
[00:03:05] numbers, a new chapter can open for Serbia, the EU
[00:03:08] door is open and we are ready to move forward
[00:03:11] together. Canada is also continuing its negotiations
[00:03:16] delay in implementing the court's with the EU. While some member states like France contest the
[00:03:18] status of associate member which does not exist
[00:03:20] law is the opposite of in European texts, all support this rapprochement. A
[00:03:24] summit was held on Thursday and Friday in Montreal to define the outlines of this
[00:03:28] new strategic partnership, conceived by both parties as an
[00:03:31] alternative to increasingly unstable relations with the
[00:03:34] United States. The European Commission has proposed a reform of the Frontex
[00:03:38] agency that would further tighten European migration policy. At stake
[00:03:42] is an increase in Frontex's budget and staff, but also the
[00:03:46] possibility of intervening outside the Union's borders to send people
[00:03:49] from third countries even before they reach it. This proposal
[00:03:53] raises serious concerns from human rights organizations. As a
[00:03:56] reminder, the European Union Court of Justice ruled in December
[00:04:00] Frontex responsible for guaranteeing the fundamental rights
[00:04:03] of individuals and the existence of written return decisions
[00:04:07] during joint return operations.
[00:04:10] Coun des arts has indeed received
[00:04:14] referrals against certain countries, this has often been the case against Hungary and Poland
[00:04:17] accused of authoritarian drifts. Poland
[00:04:20] now has the pro-European government of Donald Tusk and Hungary
[00:04:24] has also changed government, this has not escaped you with Peter
[00:04:27] Maguiard, do you have fewer referrals concerning them and above all, do you
[00:04:31] believe them capable of restoring a good rule of
[00:04:34] law? The good news here is
[00:04:37] indeed, we have fewer referrals, but
[00:04:40] above all we have even already had a case
[00:04:44] where the European Commission withdrew an
[00:04:47] infringement action it had brought before the European
[00:04:51] Union Court of Justice against Hungary
[00:04:55] because of the law on national
[00:04:57] what the primacy of Union sovereignty which had been
[00:05:01] during the mandate of the previous government, the
[00:05:04] current government
[00:05:06] did
[00:05:09] so approved by parliament.
[00:05:12] law, a law that withdraws this old
[00:05:16] legislation, after which the European Commission withdrew
[00:05:19] its action, it was really a case of
[00:05:22] constitutional scope at the level of the entire
[00:05:26] European Union, and so it proves
[00:05:29] that ultimately the rule of law, the court
[00:05:33] can set the boundaries of what
[00:05:36] the rule of law entails, but like any judicial decision,
[00:05:40] and this applies in all countries of the world, the
[00:05:44] implementation of judicial decisions is a
[00:05:47] task of the political, legislative
[00:05:51] and executive authorities. Let's take a concrete example, Mr. President, this
[00:05:56] Court of Justice ruled on the 2021 law, designed
[00:06:00] to introduce severe measures against pedophiles and protect
[00:06:04] minors, but which de facto in Hungary would restrict access to
[00:06:07] LGBT content in media, bookstores, the
[00:06:11] parliament with this new pro-European majority
[00:06:14] repealed this law which
[00:06:18] homosexuality, so case law is shifting the lines,
[00:06:21] exactly, it's another example and I'm grateful
[00:06:25] that you cite it, where Hungary has therefore
[00:06:28] adapted its legislation after our judgment,
[00:06:32] that is to say, to implement our judgment,
[00:06:35] all this proves that the rule
[00:06:38] of law works in Europe and that is why also
[00:06:42] I did not speak of the rule of law in
[00:06:46] terms of fighting or in terms of conflict
[00:06:49] with our member states, no, the member
[00:06:52] states have all committed to respecting
[00:06:55] these common values that I have cited, when a member
[00:06:59] state crosses the red lines, that is to say the
[00:07:03] essential content of these values, the court must
[00:07:06] acknowledge it in its case law, and the
[00:07:09] member states and the two Hungarian examples
[00:07:12] show, implement the judgment of the Court of Justice. You are
[00:07:16] also seized by the European Commission for failure to respect the rule of law in the case of Slovakia
[00:07:20] of Robert Fico, who is therefore a populist who is accused of
[00:07:23] dismantling anti-corruption mechanisms and of not providing
[00:07:26] access for defendants to a lawyer, and
[00:07:30] if this state, since the government has not changed, does
[00:07:34] not comply with your binding opinions, what happens? In such
[00:07:37] a case, when the court finds the infringement, it is
[00:07:41] incumbent, in line with what I have just said, on the political
[00:07:45] power both at European level and at national
[00:07:48] level, to implement the judgment. At European
[00:07:51] level, it is the European Commission, the executive, if you
[00:07:54] will, which controls the implementation
[00:07:57] of our judgment by the member state. If
[00:08:00] the member state were to remain in default
[00:08:04] of doing so, the Commission can launch a second
[00:08:08] infringement procedure before the Court of Justice with
[00:08:11] fines. exactly, financial
[00:08:15] penalties. These financial penalties can be
[00:08:18] either a fine, technically called a lump
[00:08:22] sum, accompanied by a
[00:08:25] penalty per day of
[00:08:28] judgment, and these financial penalties
[00:08:32] really work
[00:08:35] because they are collected
[00:08:38] afterwards by a withholding tax on funds
[00:08:42] due by the European Union to the member state concerned,
[00:08:46] and so normally this is enough for the
[00:08:49] member state to comply with the rule of law. Here, what
[00:08:53] happened in Hungary, there was a "yes but" wait, these financial
[00:08:56] penalties, it was the member states
[00:08:59] themselves who provided for this
[00:09:03] through successive amendments to the initial
[00:09:06] treaties in which such fines were not found,
[00:09:09] so precisely
[00:09:12] to ensure that all member states implement the
[00:09:16] judgments of the Court of Justice, because otherwise equality
[00:09:19] between member states and their citizens before the
[00:09:23] law of the Union would no longer be ensured, that's what we're
[00:09:27] talking about when we talk about the rule of law. Let's also talk about some hot
[00:09:30] issues like frozen Russian assets,
[00:09:34] especially in Belgium, they are through the Euroclear
[00:09:38] clearing system, Belgium which fears legal
[00:09:41] proceedings for its
[00:09:44] country by the Russians, does it seem to
[00:09:47] you, since you are a good jurist, a serious
[00:09:51] legal threat? In reality, the legal threats we
[00:09:55] are talking about are not directly played out before the
[00:09:59] Court of Justice of the European Union, that being said, all
[00:10:02] decisions taken at European
[00:10:05] level can be challenged before the
[00:10:08] Court of Justice of the European Union, so it is not excluded that
[00:10:12] a case, whatever the decision taken, will reach
[00:10:16] us anyway, so that's why on the specific case I cannot
[00:10:19] comment, but the questions we have on the
[00:10:23] Russian sanctions are important because they are
[00:10:26] generally Russian oligarchs who have
[00:10:30] been listed as we say, so that is
[00:10:34] included on a list of people against
[00:10:37] whom sanctions are in force
[00:10:41] and these people obviously contest the legality of
[00:10:45] that, an example that actually affects
[00:10:48] France, it was Russia Today France which
[00:10:52] had already been placed in
[00:10:55] 2022 on the European Union's sanctions list and
[00:10:58] which attacked this decision before
[00:11:01] the Court of Justice of the European Union and so
[00:11:05] there Russia Today said, "Ah, I cannot be
[00:11:08] put on this list because I claim freedom of
[00:11:11] the press." So the Tribunal decided
[00:11:14] that freedom of the press has its limits when the media
[00:11:18] outlet is financed by a third country and is therefore an
[00:11:22] instrument of propaganda that incites hatred between
[00:11:26] peoples and war, so there you see again
[00:11:29] these values on which the European Union is
[00:11:33] founded, also frames
[00:11:35] the implementation of fundamental rights, here freedom of
[00:11:40] since we're talking about freedom, we're going to talk about another
[00:11:44] court, but this will interest you, the Sakharov Prize for
[00:11:47] Freedom of Thought has been awarded to the International Criminal Court,
[00:11:51] when you see that a Trump administration that is angered
[00:11:55] by Benjamin Netanyahu's passion concerning Gaza brandishes sanctions
[00:11:58] and plans an asset freeze in the United States and a ban
[00:12:02] on entry to the United States for all personnel of the International
[00:12:06] Criminal Court, does this will to blow up the guarantors
[00:12:09] of international law, the judges first and foremost, frighten
[00:12:13] you? Fear is perhaps a little exaggerated
[00:12:16] but it's a huge
[00:12:18] concern because
[00:12:22] since the Second World War, since Robert
[00:12:25] Schuman's declaration on
[00:12:27] then the community Europe as he saw
[00:12:31] it, concrete achievements that create a de facto
[00:12:34] solidarity, so in fact relations between
[00:12:38] states in Europe have been based on
[00:12:42] rules, rules of law that have been
[00:12:45] agreed upon between states that respect
[00:12:49] each other mutually and are in solidarity. The International
[00:12:52] Criminal Court is an expression of the same idea but
[00:12:56] at the global level for what
[00:12:59] is the prosecution of the most
[00:13:02] heinous crimes which are crimes
[00:13:05] against humanity and
[00:13:08] so I told you human dignity is the primary
[00:13:11] value of the European Union, so yes
[00:13:14] the judges of the International Criminal Court are our
[00:13:17] brothers and sisters just like the judges of the European
[00:13:21] Court of Human Rights, so all these courts that
[00:13:25] strive to uphold the law, the rule
[00:13:28] of law, to protect citizens against
[00:13:32] the arbitrariness of power, of an authoritarian power, of
[00:13:36] an oligarchic power, those
[00:13:38] in power who make citizens believe
[00:13:42] that the rule of
[00:13:45] democracy, it is in reality
[00:13:49] in view of the judges' inability
[00:13:53] to limit arbitrariness in the exercise of their
[00:13:57] power, but if you look at the great
[00:14:00] powers in the world, the leaders in
[00:14:03] power are in reality much
[00:14:07] more exercising personal
[00:14:10] power, in a way, personal
[00:14:13] power where the press is neutralized, judges
[00:14:17] are neutralized, political opposition is
[00:14:20] discredited, that is to say, all pluralistic
[00:14:23] democracy, making it inclusive in reality,
[00:14:27] isn't it? And so in fact neutralizing the European
[00:14:30] states that founded the European Union have therefore
[00:14:34] committed to this and have even
[00:14:37] committed, it is Article 3 paragraph 5 of the Treaty on European
[00:14:41] Union, to spread
[00:14:44] through their international relations
[00:14:47] with the rest of the world the same
[00:14:50] values as those on which the European Union
[00:14:53] itself is founded. In France, you can see that we are on the eve of a
[00:14:57] presidential election, where the party that is leading in the polls, the
[00:15:00] National Rally, defends the primacy of national law over European
[00:15:04] law, and therefore that
[00:15:07] a state can decide alone on the rules
[00:15:11] without European supervision, indeed, what
[00:15:13] does that inspire in you? I take your
[00:15:17] question as an opportunity to express
[00:15:22] law is and in reality... It's very
[00:15:25] simple, when you make a
[00:15:28] contract,
[00:15:30] and that's what the Member States have done with the 26 other
[00:15:34] Member States, each Member State, France has concluded a
[00:15:37] contract with the 26
[00:15:41] the European Union and we call this contract the
[00:15:44] Treaties and all the rules made by the European
[00:15:48] Parliament and the Council of the European Union in co-decision, the
[00:15:53] the Union, the primacy is simply the expression
[00:15:57] of the principle known since
[00:16:00] time immemorial in international law,
[00:16:03] pacta sunt servanda, we must
[00:16:06] respect our word, and that applies to
[00:16:10] France, to Germany, to Belgium, to Poland, to
[00:16:13] Hungary, to all 27 Member States, and
[00:16:17] the reason for this is very clear, if
[00:16:20] a Member State could say afterwards
[00:16:23] unilaterally, no, I didn't understand it that
[00:16:26] way, I have to do what
[00:16:30] I choose now, in reality, that
[00:16:34] state breaks the contract to which it
[00:16:37] committed, just like private individuals, as you know, we can't
[00:16:41] do that either, this primacy is the
[00:16:44] ultimate guarantee, once again,
[00:16:47] of equality of Member States and their
[00:16:50] citizens before the Treaty,
[00:16:54] national elections are also European elections, because
[00:16:57] they will determine how that Member
[00:17:00] State will assert its point of view in
[00:17:04] the common exercise of its
[00:17:07] national sovereignty that has been entrusted
[00:30:16] Hello everyone and welcome to this edition of Actuel dedicated to
[00:30:20] the midterm elections in the United States. The
[00:30:23] midterms are looking difficult for Donald Trump with the rising
[00:30:27] cost of living due to the war in Iran that he started in February,
[00:30:30] but his political record is also the methodical dismantling
[00:30:34] of women's rights, voluntary termination of pregnancy first, and then his
[00:30:38] support for measures that may reduce the number of women
[00:30:42] who can vote in the United States. So, how are women
[00:30:45] reacting to this policy, does this rollback on their
[00:30:49] rights change their vote? To talk about it, I am pleased
[00:30:52] to speak today with Emilie Mitrand, hello.