HALKTV — Isin Elicin ile Sinirsiz
20260920 130000 UTC
1780 transcript segments
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[00:00:00] Orbus power bank.
[00:00:27] I say that today we are from the Middle East. Because
[00:00:30] of course,
[00:00:32] a new threshold has now been crossed
[00:00:36] in the attacks by Yemen, or rather the Houthis, or
[00:00:40] the Ansar Allah movement, on Saudi Arabia, because
[00:00:43] Riyadh airport was targeted, and as we discussed
[00:00:47] before, Saudi Arabia has been in trouble for a while.
[00:00:51] The aid it wanted from America did not come today. Or rather, yesterday, Hakan Fidan also made
[00:00:54] an interesting statement. Actually, we discussed it at length
[00:00:58] in the previous program, that is, the Mecca Agreement.
[00:01:02] How much does it bind Turkey? What is the text of such an agreement? I want
[00:01:07] although no one, I am for it not being in anyone's hands, to discuss all these things with you, because you follow Yemen very well, and you also follow Saudi Arabia,
[00:01:11] but first, let's share
[00:01:13] the latest developments from the region as news with our dear viewers,
[00:01:17] and then
[00:01:18] let's talk.
[00:01:27] Since July, Saudi Arabia.
[00:01:34] King Khalid International Airport has been the target
[00:01:38] of attacks. Saudi Arabia, on the other hand,
[00:01:40] announced that the ballistic missile launched towards Riyadh
[00:01:44] was destroyed in the air.
[00:01:48] However, the fire in the fuel depot near the airport
[00:01:52] revealed the danger facing the capital.
[00:01:55] They announced that they targeted
[00:01:59] numerous ballistic and
[00:02:04] cruise missiles
[00:02:07] and unmanned aerial vehicles. Following the developments,
[00:02:10] a remarkable warning came from the US
[00:02:13] Department of State to its citizens.
[00:02:17] It was stated that the security environment in the Middle East
[00:02:20] is open to an unpredictable
[00:02:23] escalation. warned that the war
[00:02:27] between the Houthis and Saudi Arabia could escalate rapidly
[00:02:30] and that the threat might not be limited to the Middle East.
[00:02:34] It announced that Iran and pro-Iranian groups
[00:02:37] could target American interests,
[00:02:40] businesses, and institutions in different parts of the world.
[00:02:43] As the war spread in the region, a new message
[00:02:47] came from Tehran to Washington. The Secretary of Iran's Supreme National Security Council,
[00:02:51] Mohsen Rezaee, announced that they had conveyed
[00:02:54] their conditions for resuming negotiations
[00:02:58] to America through Qatar and Pakistan. These include
[00:03:02] the release of frozen Iranian assets,
[00:03:04] the lifting of the naval blockade, and
[00:03:08] an end to the war on all fronts. The Iranian official
[00:03:11] also stated that they are ready to help
[00:03:14] end the war between Saudi Arabia
[00:03:17] and the Houthis.
[00:03:24] However, he warned Washington against a new attack.
[00:03:28] He said that if they attack again,
[00:03:31] they will hit the bases from which American
[00:03:34] planes take off much harder this time. Yes, Mustafa Kemal,
[00:03:48] isn't it? How quickly
[00:03:52] it escalates. You are right to say that you follow
[00:03:55] the Ansar Allah movement because they are
[00:03:59] working, so to speak, because
[00:04:02] behind him, this war with Saudi Arabia is not new. Yes, it's not new, of course. Since 2015,
[00:04:06] they have actually been in a homeland defense, first of all, this needs to be determined,
[00:04:10] because Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates,
[00:04:14] who later fell out with each other, actually, I wrote an article, there is no proxy
[00:04:18] war with Iran, there is a proxy war that Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates
[00:04:22] have been waging against each other. A coalition formed
[00:04:25] under the leadership of these two countries has been carrying out
[00:04:29] attacks in Yemen since 2015.
[00:04:32] You are right to ask what Ansar Allah wants
[00:04:36] to do. First of all, as you said, they are defending their homeland
[00:04:40] because an external power, Saudi Arabia,
[00:04:43] has occupied this country since 2015, and almost 330,000,
[00:04:46] almost 350,000 Yemenis, mostly civilians, have died.
[00:04:49] Now I always say this, the magic word is this, that
[00:04:53] whatever geopolitics puts before us, not before you or me,
[00:04:57] it makes us talk about it, whereas Ansar Allah is
[00:05:00] doing what is expected of them, they are actually doing
[00:05:04] what is expected of every country that defends itself, because their country is under occupation.
[00:05:06] So Saudi Arabia, of course, with America's approval and support,
[00:05:10] wants to establish a pro-Saudi
[00:05:13] regime in Yemen that supports
[00:05:17] it, because there are border issues and so on, as you know,
[00:05:21] and it has completely pounced on Yemen
[00:05:24] due to security issues, using a concept borrowed
[00:05:27] from America. Ansar Allah's methods can certainly be debated,
[00:05:30] and we should debate them, that's another matter.
[00:05:33] The most bitter answer I will give to the question of what they are doing
[00:05:37] is this: Ansar Allah, like others,
[00:05:40] the paradigm of war has changed, everyone is hitting infrastructure,
[00:05:44] hitting airports, hitting schools, I am not saying hitting schools, but I have inserted
[00:05:47] it with other examples, they are hitting airports,
[00:05:51] they hit Aramco facilities, these are the heart
[00:05:54] and lifelines of Saudi Arabia, but
[00:05:58] this is a war that has been going on since 2015, and now our geopolitics
[00:06:01] presents the issue to us as if
[00:06:04] it just happened or as if Ansar Allah attacked Saudi Arabia
[00:06:08] while they were dormant. Now, let's criticize all of Ansar Allah's methods,
[00:06:12] and evaluate them, that's another matter, but let's also ask
[00:06:16] what Saudi Arabia has been doing there since 2015 and question it,
[00:06:20] because Prince Mohammed bin Salman, the de facto king, as you know,
[00:06:23] did not die, his father, I am not saying anyone should die, but he lived a long life,
[00:06:26] so he is actually the de facto king,
[00:06:30] and this was a test area
[00:06:32] for him to prove himself. What does Yemen mean? It has been
[00:06:36] 11 years, and a war has been going on there for 11 years, and now
[00:06:40] If I don't calculate wrong, will be in 2026.
[00:06:43] There has been a war going on for 11 years, thousands of people have died, as I just said.
[00:06:45] So what if we look at it
[00:06:49] this way, I will ask a question, I am asking
[00:06:52] so we can think together, so now,
[00:06:56] these attacks on Iran by the United States
[00:07:00] have started a very different era in the region, a threshold
[00:07:03] has been crossed, and
[00:07:07] the Strait of Hormuz, which will affect the world,
[00:07:11] stands like a closed or black box right now,
[00:07:14] meaning it has not been resolved, there is a crisis point there,
[00:07:18] in this process, it was said that if
[00:07:22] Bab el-Mandeb, where the Houthis are located,
[00:07:25] on the Red Sea side, if they also take action,
[00:07:28] this situation will come to a very different point,
[00:07:32] and for a long time, the Houthis did not get involved in this process.
[00:07:35] They have direct attacks on Israel in the Gaza War, meaning during the Gaza attacks,
[00:07:38] I don't want to say war on Israel, because that's why.
[00:07:55] To understand it better, Saudi Arabia is particularly
[00:07:58] targeted,
[00:08:00] and the crisis is spreading. I mean, this is, how should I say,
[00:08:04] the world is going towards a point beyond
[00:08:08] just the United States or the Gulf countries that support it.
[00:08:11] Of course,
[00:08:22] its gaining importance is something that needs to be discussed. What immediately comes to my mind
[00:08:26] is that if another country had been fighting
[00:08:30] the United States and Iran in that region,
[00:08:34] the Ansar Allah movement would have been on their side, or aligned with them,
[00:08:37] inevitably. Of course, people immediately think of sectarian
[00:08:41] proximity and so on. But it's wrong, even if there is
[00:08:44] sectarian proximity, the Ansar Allah movement cannot be considered
[00:08:48] fully Shiite, because it opposes
[00:08:51] the Imam concept of Velayet-e Faqih,
[00:08:55] meaning that anyone can be an Imam, they don't necessarily have to be specially chosen or privileged.
[00:08:58] Since it has this theological difference,
[00:09:02] there is no possibility of it being a movement directly centered on Iran or directed by Iran,
[00:09:05] but of course there are common interests, of course,
[00:09:09] and this brings them together. Perhaps Iran is not happy
[00:09:12] about the situation reaching this point, I am making a claim,
[00:09:16] I can't prove it, I am stating my prediction, or rather my feeling,
[00:09:20] that perhaps Iran is concerned that it might lose control.
[00:09:23] I am just saying this in parentheses, I don't know if this is the case,
[00:09:26] but I feel this way. Because Ansar Allah
[00:09:30] has now reached a point that even surpasses Iran. Now, to summarize,
[00:09:33] the situation in the Strait of Hormuz is clear, it was a very important global
[00:09:36] route. It is closed, or at least under Iran's control. Iran can allow
[00:09:40] whoever it wants to pass, and not allow
[00:09:42] whoever it doesn't want, and take money from whoever it wants, and not take money from whoever it doesn't want, as you know. Now, are there no alternative
[00:09:46] routes being considered for this? Yes, there are. The Bab el-Mandeb
[00:09:49] Strait may not be the only alternative, or the best alternative,
[00:09:53] but among dozens of alternatives, it is an important one for Saudi Arabia, as I understand.
[00:09:56] Now, while such a thing exists, Ansar Allah's
[00:09:59] new position, which can support
[00:10:03] Iran's control of Hormuz and its preventive
[00:10:07] position on global supply, is understandable.
[00:10:11] Because it was a very good opportunity. Because,
[00:10:14] yes, it was a very important strategic position
[00:10:17] regarding the forces that both Iran
[00:10:21] and Yemen are facing. Is it not?
[00:10:25] And Ansar Allah's control of Bab el-Mandeb
[00:10:29] has surprised the opposing forces so much. From this perspective,
[00:10:33] I find this important. Now, they also, excuse me,
[00:10:36] I said that to interrupt, they say that about Bab el-Mandeb,
[00:10:40] although Iran also started that way for Hormuz,
[00:10:44] but things developed differently. They say we won't let
[00:10:47] Saudi Arabian ships pass through here because
[00:10:51] we are at war with them, others can pass,
[00:10:55] but no one can take that risk, so trade is not possible.
[00:10:58] The same thing happened in Hormuz, if you remember, Iran applied the same position, but
[00:11:02] now you said at the beginning
[00:11:06] that Yemen and Saudi Arabia,
[00:11:08] or rather the Houthis, have been at war for a long time,
[00:11:11] so it's a natural enemy, and it's taking a position,
[00:11:15] as you said, it takes advantage of the opportunity
[00:11:18] when it puts them in a more advantageous position. Iran also
[00:11:22] attacked Saudi Arabia, but now I am thinking
[00:11:25] aloud, could isolating and specifically
[00:11:29] targeting Saudi Arabia have an effect like this?
[00:11:32] Saudi Arabia is still an important country in the region.
[00:11:36] Yes, we can say Egypt too, but it has a different
[00:11:39] position than Egypt. Will trying to rid
[00:11:42] it of its relations with America, or forcing it,
[00:11:46] lead to a point where it asks America to please take
[00:11:49] your bases and leave? I am not sure,
[00:11:53] but forcing this,
[00:11:57] is it in the interest of both sides? made the distinction very well,
[00:12:00] we know that their statement that they will only allow Saudi Arabian
[00:12:04] ships is not realistic. Tomorrow,
[00:12:07] even if they say it's okay for others to pass,
[00:12:11] that doesn't remove the hesitation, the same thing happened in Hormuz,
[00:12:15] that's very true. Yes, that's a good tactic,
[00:12:18] Ansar Allah can build a verbal defense on this and say,
[00:12:22] no, I am only banning the ships of Saudi Arabia,
[00:12:26] whom I have been fighting since 2015. It won't be that way, of course, there is an understandable
[00:12:30] side to this, if you have taken control of the situation,
[00:12:34] you might not allow a Turkish tanker to pass, even if I am just giving
[00:12:37] an example and don't know if there is such a thing,
[00:12:41] it's very possible tomorrow after taking control.
[00:12:45] Yes, Saudi Arabia is important, you are right. Look, it is perhaps
[00:12:48] the strongest country in the region in terms of
[00:12:52] weapons and equipment, but it has no personnel.
[00:12:55] Pakistani pilots used its fighter jets for years,
[00:12:58] and I think there was a pilot training program
[00:13:02] where Pakistan helped for years, it has been helping since the mid-80s,
[00:13:05] as you know. There is a Pakistani
[00:13:09] military unit there that trains Saudi Arabia,
[00:13:12] but it's clear it hasn't worked, as you know, they still
[00:13:16] can't do anything. By the way, I should quickly mention that many Saudi
[00:13:20] Arabian soldiers are surrendering in large numbers to Ansar Allah forces,
[00:13:23] so Saudi Arabia also has a military
[00:13:27] force that has no combat capability, but despite this, it is an important
[00:13:30] country because it is a petrodollar country. Yes, it has a lot of money,
[00:13:34] and with that money, it does a lot of things.
[00:13:37] Look, in OPEC, it caused the United Arab
[00:13:40] Emirates to withdraw from the organization of petroleum
[00:13:44] producing countries, or it withdrew itself, but it implemented policies
[00:13:47] that forced the UAE to withdraw, meaning Saudi Arabia is one of the two or three
[00:13:50] countries that determine the global oil market.
[00:13:54] This great power, as we mentioned before,
[00:13:57] and you will remember very well, is the foreign country with the most assets
[00:14:00] in the United States. All of these give it an advantage,
[00:14:04] so it is important, of course. Therefore, Ansar Allah is fighting
[00:14:08] such an important power, and look how difficult
[00:14:12] it is for them. Now, the axis of resistance, which is centered around Iran,
[00:14:15] is slowly shifting towards Ansar Allah today, we don't know what will happen tomorrow.
[00:14:19] These are very important developments, to be honest,
[00:14:22] because Mohammed bin Salman
[00:14:26] could not have calculated that it would last this long,
[00:14:29] he didn't think it would last this long. Yemen is a fragmented country,
[00:14:32] it has a problem with governance and stability,
[00:14:36] it's a divided thing, the Sanaa government is separate,
[00:14:40] and those organized elsewhere are separate. And they also formed a transitional
[00:14:43] council, as you know, the United Arab Emirates formed it.
[00:14:46] By the way, Saudi Arabia hit the convoy that supplied
[00:14:50] arms to the transitional council formed by the United Arab Emirates,
[00:14:53] its ally. So Saudi Arabia
[00:15:00] is also strengthening Ansar Allah because
[00:15:03] the alliance facing it is falling apart from within.
[00:15:07] So whoever it was, they would be strong, Ansar is already strong,
[00:15:10] but these are also among the reasons that make them strong.
[00:15:14] I always say this about Saudi Arabia, you know,
[00:15:17] I am saying this by referring to all of Saudi Arabia.
[00:15:19] Its first founder
[00:15:23] might be different, but he will be the youngest king if he becomes one.
[00:15:26] He is getting older though, because he couldn't become one.
[00:15:29] Yes, his father is also living a long life, so even if he dies
[00:15:33] in 10 years, he will still be young,
[00:15:37] maybe 50 years old when he becomes king, a young king. How can he make so many mistakes
[00:15:40] repeatedly? Think about it, Aramco was attacked,
[00:15:44] because he doesn't pay the price for the murder he committed
[00:15:47] in Turkey, or whatever the crime was,
[00:15:51] it's easy to make mistakes again when you don't pay the price.
[00:15:54] I know I sound fatalistic, but the consequences of your political
[00:15:58] mistakes somehow come back to you. This is a serious mistake.
[00:16:02] Now, within Saudi Arabia, although it is not spoken much,
[00:16:06] we understand from the opposition abroad that there is a serious reaction against Mohammed bin.
[00:16:09] There are 16,000 princes and princesses there, Isıncım,
[00:16:13] can there be such a thing, for God's sake? Now, a large part of them,
[00:16:17] or rather, have an opposition to Mohammed bin Salman for known reasons.
[00:16:19] Now, there are those who oppose him by saying that
[00:16:22] he is making the country experience a kind of Vietnam syndrome.
[00:16:26] Yes, I mean, he had said that he had withdrawn
[00:16:29] from the war for a while, but now,
[00:16:33] after Saudi Arabia
[00:16:36] and Yemen reached a hot conflict point,
[00:16:39] but because of the attacks by the United States and Israel on Iran,
[00:16:43] and while Saudi Arabia is still a target
[00:16:47] of Iran's attacks
[00:16:48] at such a stage,
[00:17:09] I will just present our news then, friends,
[00:17:11] the Mecca Agreement.
[00:17:19] Foreign Minister Hakan Fidan announced Ankara's
[00:17:23] stance on military support to Saudi Arabia,
[00:17:26] which is the target of Houthi attacks.
[00:17:29] Speaking to NTV, Fidan pointed out
[00:17:32] that Turkey has an alliance responsibility
[00:17:36] within the scope of the Mecca Alliance. "We see very serious
[00:17:39] attacks on Saudi Arabia's territorial integrity,
[00:17:43] sovereignty, and infrastructure, when we look at our agreement,
[00:17:45] there is an alliance
[00:17:49] responsibility between the countries,
[00:17:52] and our President, as you know, is truly
[00:17:56] a man of his word, there is a matter that we have signed
[00:17:59] as a state, and we are in solidarity
[00:18:02] on this matter." The Mecca Defense
[00:18:06] Agreement between Turkey, Saudi Arabia, and Pakistan
[00:18:09] considers an attack
[00:18:11] on one of its members
[00:18:15] as an attack on all. Fidan announced
[00:18:18] that undisclosed discussions were held
[00:18:21] among the members of the Mecca Alliance. He stated
[00:18:24] that Saudi Arabia might have military
[00:18:27] needs, especially in technical matters,
[00:18:31] and said that
[00:18:32] there would be no problem
[00:18:37] in meeting these. He said that Saudi Arabia
[00:18:41] should be kept out of the war between the United States
[00:18:44] and Iran. He also stated
[00:18:46] that Riyadh is not seeking
[00:19:15] Now, just as Saudi Arabia has started
[00:19:19] a new conflict with the Houthis, but at a point where it is also being targeted
[00:19:22] by Iran due to the attacks by the United States and Israel on Iran,
[00:19:26] meaning while it is in a state of conflict,
[00:19:29] Turkey,
[00:19:32] Saudi Arabia, and Pakistan formed an alliance.
[00:19:34] Now, it has not been announced who this defense
[00:19:38] alliance is against,
[00:19:41] there is no text, we don't know the scope of the agreement,
[00:19:44] and from the beginning, there were loud concerns
[00:19:48] about whether Turkey's involvement in such a defense alliance
[00:19:52] would drag us into a war, but in fact,
[00:19:55] there is no text available,
[00:19:59] we don't know, but Hakan Fidan, this time,
[00:20:02] sorry, by reminding that President Erdoğan
[00:20:06] is also a man of his word, he implied
[00:20:09] that there is a promise made, and that they can give military
[00:20:12] support to Saudi Arabia. This seems very important
[00:20:16] to me. Of course it is important.
[00:20:20] What do you think? Yes, it is important, Isın,
[00:20:23] if I am not mistaken, we are following the country,
[00:20:27] there is no way I could have missed this, this agreement has not been approved
[00:20:30] by the Grand National Assembly of Turkey, there is no agreement,
[00:20:33] there is no text, we don't know yet. but we don't know the text.
[00:20:50] We will evaluate it, right? Even if the ambassador doesn't
[00:20:53] explain it that way, that's the name they gave it,
[00:20:56] yes. In any case,
[00:21:00] I think it will not become official until it is approved
[00:21:03] by the Grand National Assembly of Turkey. Therefore, Hakan Fidan's statement
[00:21:06] is serious in this regard.
[00:21:10] For him to say that we will do what our President says means that the Grand National Assembly of Turkey
[00:21:14] will be excluded. I am not saying it happened, but if it does, that's what it means.
[00:21:17] But he might also be saying this to improve
[00:21:21] the situation, which is possible, because this is a difficult
[00:21:24] decision for Turkey as well. By the way,
[00:21:28] this is the agreement, isn't it? I am not going over it,
[00:21:31] but let's just say for now that we understand
[00:21:34] the reason why the Mecca agreement was drafted and made so hastily,
[00:21:38] because it was made hastily. Meaning, Saudi Arabia
[00:21:41] invited it, right? Because they already had a good relationship with Pakistan.
[00:21:44] I was just about to say that. They made a bilateral agreement
[00:21:47] about a year before this agreement, Saudi Arabia
[00:21:51] and Pakistan. And the main
[00:21:54] articles of that agreement were transferred to the Mecca Agreement.
[00:21:58] The main article is that if one of the members is attacked,
[00:22:02] the others will go to their side and support them. They also declared it together.
[00:22:05] Yes, exactly. This is also in the Mecca Agreement.
[00:22:09] And our objection, or at least my objection,
[00:22:11] is this: Turkey, I mean,
[00:22:14] there is no issue that doesn't concern Turkey anymore,
[00:22:18] there is no issue that doesn't concern any country, every issue concerns it,
[00:22:21] but we are not talking about something that is directly among Turkey's priorities.
[00:22:25] If a proxy war is going on there, I don't think it is going on for Iran, but even
[00:22:28] if it is, Turkey's involvement in this way is understandable,
[00:22:32] but if there is no such proxy war there, the question can be asked what Turkey's business is there.
[00:22:36] Now, the interesting thing here is this: Is intervention
[00:22:40] as easy as it seems? We need to discuss that.
[00:22:43] As you reminded before, Saudi Arabia
[00:22:46] and Pakistan made a bilateral agreement,
[00:22:49] and the same Pakistan is in the Mecca alliance.
[00:22:52] It is one of the countries that should intervene before Turkey.
[00:22:56] It probably needs to do that, because the previous agreement
[00:23:00] also requires this. It cannot do it,
[00:23:04] I am not saying it won't be able to, but it cannot do it. And its prime minister
[00:23:07] or foreign minister made a statement recently, I even wrote about it.
[00:23:11] He says, we have a very long border with Iran, and we already have border problems there,
[00:23:14] this could revive. And there is something forgotten,
[00:23:17] Pakistan has the most Shiites outside of Iran.
[00:23:20] Now, while there is a Pakistan that considers
[00:23:23] all these things, even if Turkey does not
[00:23:27] experience similar problems
[00:23:28] in the same way,
[00:23:31] for Turkey to give the impression that it is intervening or will intervene
[00:23:35] is serious, if you ask me. Turkey also needs to make some calculations.
[00:23:38] Recently, yes, I mean,
[00:23:42] it's at least a message, maybe it aims to be a deterrent,
[00:23:46] but as I said, that message,
[00:23:56] its language, I say this for everyone without exception,
[00:23:59] is very bad. Now, an Ansar Allah official made
[00:24:02] a statement, 'Rude official from Ansar Allah threatens Turkey'.
[00:24:05] Why would that person threaten Turkey? He says, if Turkey
[00:24:08] comes, we will resist it in our country.
[00:24:12] It's that simple, because the incoming
[00:24:14] force is an occupying
[00:24:16] force. During the occupation of Istanbul,
[00:24:20] didn't Indian and Pakistani Muslims come? Were we like, 'Oh, they are Muslims,
[00:24:23] let's not throw stones at them'? No. Whoever you are,
[00:24:27] you are coming as an occupying force. Ansar Allah is not acting
[00:24:30] this way because it specifically
[00:24:34] holds animosity towards Turkey or Turks. It says, whoever
[00:24:37] comes to my country alongside Saudi Arabia is an occupying force, and I will defend myself against them.
[00:24:41] It's that simple. This issue should be framed this way.
[00:24:44] Of course, but frankly, Hakan Fidan's statement, this
[00:24:48] statement frightened me. Because, yes, yes,
[00:24:51] because at least, at least, there would be a side
[00:24:55] that could save this situation, it could be like this, as I said earlier, let's see if it
[00:24:59] passes through parliament, parliament will decide, it would have been more appropriate to say that we will take
[00:25:02] a stance accordingly, but the issue keeps coming back, Mr. President
[00:25:06] keeps his word, this country cannot function based on whether Mr. President keeps his word or not,
[00:25:10] there is no such thing as a country functioning or stopping based on
[00:25:14] the word of a single person, this is reaching a very grave
[00:25:16] point, now, I'm not saying it will be like this again.
[00:25:20] But yes, when Mr. Erdoğan says let it
[00:25:23] happen, will Turkey go to war? Look, in this country, in our country,
[00:25:27] years ago, when I was in London, it wasn't good to start like this,
[00:25:31] but during the Iraq war, the Iraq War was about to begin, America was
[00:25:34] pouncing on Iraq, we don't like Saddam or anything, that's a separate issue, but
[00:25:38] with the thought that there would be an attack on the Iraqi people, countless demonstrations
[00:25:42] were held in Trafalgar Square, now why am I saying this, yes, now why
[00:25:45] am I saying this, yes, you will remember and understand why I'm saying this, my dear
[00:25:48] Işın, there. Anti-war songs, folk songs, anthems
[00:25:52] were being sung. So, what did we sing as anti-war, do you know?
[00:25:55] The Yemen folk song. The most magnificent
[00:25:59] anti-war folk song ever is the Yemen folk song. When
[00:26:02] I still listen to it, my eyes well up. We
[00:26:05] sang the Yemen song, the Yemen folk song there. Okay,
[00:26:08] it was Ottoman land, there was a civil war. The Ottomans went
[00:26:12] there to suppress the war, countless Ottoman
[00:26:15] soldiers died. It's very tragic, you know the lyrics. We sang
[00:26:18] that folk song. The Yemen folk song, and then we told the British about it too.
[00:26:22] Now, may those same folk songs not need to be written again. You
[00:26:26] have business in Yemen, I don't like using such phrases, but why fight
[00:26:30] with Yemenis we'd greet on the street? There's
[00:26:32] no point, is there? Now, with Saudi Arabia, we still
[00:26:35] don't understand, we don't know the content, we don't understand the reason at all, I think
[00:26:39] the reason is clear, an axis against Iran
[00:26:42] is being formed, or rather, there are axes, the Mecca alliance is one
[00:26:46] of them, and Turkey did not miss the opportunity to take
[00:26:49] its place in it, and it is expected to fulfill
[00:26:52] its obligations, it will be pressured to do so, I hope it doesn't, I hope it doesn't, I think so too,
[00:26:56] I mean, let there be no new Yemen folk songs, because,
[00:26:59] let me tell you a note, another anti-war.
[00:27:03] "let's share the protest with our viewers, like this:
[00:27:06] You know Hasan Ünal, Professor of International Relations,
[00:27:09] in his social media post, we actually discussed the content
[00:27:13] quite a bit, on similar things, but he also emphasized this, which I liked,
[00:27:16] I want to say it, these types of agreements, he says, are made if
[00:27:20] there is an attack, that is, an attack on them is considered an attack
[00:27:24] on all of us, if the attacking
[00:27:28] party is one of the alliance members, the obligation to help
[00:27:31] automatically disappears."
[00:27:41] Or will Saudi Arabia take a step to defeat
[00:27:45] the Houthis in Yemen, will it need support
[00:27:48] in that regard? Thank you very much to Professor Ünal
[00:27:52] on my own behalf, he touched upon a good point, because who
[00:27:56] is the aggressor? Let's talk about that. So, that needs to be discussed first. Go ahead,
[00:28:00] I know that Saudi Arabia is the aggressor. That's
[00:28:04] an important point, yes, I mean, let's elaborate on this a bit,
[00:28:07] yes, because Ansarullah or someone else is defending their country, what
[00:28:11] are you going to do now? I mean, no matter how justified Saudi Arabia's
[00:28:14] reasons are, there is another internationally recognized government
[00:28:18] there, yes, there is, it has international recognition,
[00:28:21] and as you said, a proxy war is being waged between the Saudis
[00:28:25] and the Houthis, meaning Saudi Arabia is supporting another
[00:28:29] proxy force there, it's very clear, yes, bravo. I thank
[00:28:33] the professor once again, this is the truth, we really need to explain and
[00:28:36] disseminate this, but I don't know what good it will do,
[00:28:39] I'm still saying it, based on what the professor said,
[00:28:42] Mr. Fidan's statement is a very grave statement, I hope it just remains
[00:28:46] a statement, I mean, I hope it was said and passed.
[00:28:50] Let me add another reason that comes to my mind:
[00:28:53] President Erdoğan went to the United States a short while
[00:28:56] ago with a large delegation, including the Minister of Justice and
[00:29:00] the Minister of Foreign Affairs. There are United Nations General
[00:29:04] Assembly sessions, and of course he has meetings with Trump, or they are
[00:29:08] expected, as Barak said, but it hasn't been officially
[00:29:12] confirmed, they say it will be a quick meeting, but on the other hand,
[00:29:15] new reports of attacks on Iran by the United States are being discussed,
[00:29:18] will it attack or not? Iran says it has received intelligence,
[00:29:22] but on the other hand, the United States has immensely increased
[00:29:26] economic pressure, yes, and as you know,
[00:29:29] everyone is very angry, saying "you're not supporting me."
[00:29:32] This economic pressure has reached a point where it includes
[00:29:36] everyone doing business with Iran, and in Turkey, Iran's most
[00:29:39] important bank's branch here has been closed, the BDDK
[00:29:43] decided this itself, there are airline companies and so on,
[00:29:47] Turkey is taking steps in this regard, these are important before
[00:29:51] this visit, of course, there could be consequences that affect Turkey,
[00:29:54] but America could have waited perhaps, but I don't think it's a coincidence
[00:29:58] that it happened before this visit, all these things will be discussed
[00:30:01] there. Trump will hold a meeting with the leaders of the Gulf
[00:30:05] countries, including Oman, and they will probably discuss
[00:30:08] the Houthis and Iran, and Turkey might be going
[00:30:12] to the United States as a message, saying "look, we stand
[00:30:16] with the Saudis." I hope so, I mean, I hope these words
[00:30:19] were said only out of concern for a message, okay, we made
[00:30:23] an alliance, that's why we'll
[00:30:52] you there are protests, and Trump is telling all
[00:30:55] his allies to come and help him in Hormuz, help
[00:30:59] him against Iran, he says. It has become so costly
[00:31:01] that it will cause him to
[00:31:05] party. South Korea was one of these countries,
[00:31:08] yes, protests in South Korea continue, even
[00:31:12] if they say they won't send soldiers.
[00:31:35] came out to protest against the possibility of participating
[00:31:38] in the Iran war. After US President Donald Trump
[00:31:41] requested military support from his allies,
[00:31:45] similar protest demonstrations are being
[00:31:48] held in the country.
[00:31:52] Trump had increased pressure on Seoul, citing
[00:31:54] its insufficient support in the Iran war. He had
[00:31:58] threatened not to protect South Korea against North
[00:32:02] Korea, and had also narrowed the scope of joint
[00:32:05] military exercises.
[00:32:08] Under pressure, the South Korean government considered
[00:32:12] the option of sending military forces to the Strait
[00:32:15] of Hormuz, but as public reactions
[00:32:18] grew, President clarified his country's
[00:32:21] stance.
[00:32:25] He stated that there would be no military deployment
[00:32:29] that would lead to their involvement in the war. Seoul
[00:32:32] is currently keeping open the possibility of playing
[00:32:35] a limited role to ensure the security of merchant
[00:32:38] ships and oil shipments in the Strait of Hormuz.
[00:32:42] According to a survey
[00:32:45] conducted in September, 55% of South Koreans
[00:32:49] strongly oppose sending
[00:32:52] soldiers to war.
[00:32:53] Yes, we are joined
[00:33:14] you because you prepared
[00:33:17] a report that points to a change in Turkey's
[00:33:20] position on nuclear energy, but also on nuclear
[00:33:23] armament, taking its past into account,
[00:33:27] so we are curious about this report. Let me
[00:33:30] ask you right away, why did you write this report, why
[00:33:33] specifically there has actually
[00:33:37] been a discussion in Washington for a while, one
[00:33:40] camp says, and this camp generally takes
[00:33:44] a very critical view of the Turkish
[00:33:47] government, it says that Turkey has been working on a nuclear
[00:33:50] weapons program for a long time and its ultimate
[00:33:53] goal is to acquire nuclear weapons. The other camp, which also
[00:33:57] sees its mission as defending the Turkish
[00:34:01] government in Washington and Western capitals, and
[00:34:05] they say that such a thing is definitely
[00:34:08] not in question. Turkey's nuclear program
[00:34:11] is entirely peaceful and Turkey never intends
[00:34:15] to acquire nuclear weapons, it says. Actually, this discussion,
[00:34:19] whether Turkey is acquiring nuclear weapons in the West,
[00:34:22] especially the discussion in Washington is not new,
[00:34:25] its roots go back to the 1960s. When
[00:34:29] I was doing research for this report and entered the archives,
[00:34:33] I saw that in 1966, the then ambassador,
[00:34:36] the American ambassador to Ankara, sent a confidential
[00:34:39] memorandum to Washington, and the memorandum stated that
[00:34:43] Turkey was taking steps towards a nuclear
[00:34:46] weapons program. Therefore, these suspicions always existed. The reason
[00:34:50] I wanted to write this report is that these two camps
[00:34:53] I mentioned earlier do not present analytical
[00:34:57] data to support their theses, that is, one side says
[00:35:00] Turkey is acquiring nuclear weapons because Turkey is such a country,
[00:35:04] a militaristic country. The other side says no, it is not interested
[00:35:07] in nuclear weapons because Turkey is a peaceful country.
[00:35:10] What I tried to do with my report was to fill
[00:35:14] this analytical gap and
[00:35:23] answer the questions of whether it has the capacity to produce
[00:35:26] nuclear weapons at this point. That's why I wrote the report. Then,
[00:35:30] of course, your report should be read for the answers
[00:35:33] you found to these questions, but please also convey them
[00:35:37] to us. I will ask if there has been a
[00:35:40] change in perspective, but we are actually feeling
[00:35:43] a change across the entire region, for example, Saudi
[00:35:46] Arabia, maybe we'll talk about that later. How has
[00:35:50] Turkey's view on nuclear weapons changed,
[00:35:53] has it changed? Now, my basic
[00:35:56] argument in the report is this: I say that today,
[00:35:59] we don't have any evidence that Turkey is
[00:36:03] building a nuclear bomb. Indeed, according to the
[00:36:06] International Atomic Energy Agency data, Turkey is not technically
[00:36:09] a country with the capacity to produce nuclear weapons
[00:36:13] at the moment. For this, "it takes at least 10 years
[00:36:17] to reach that point technically, but I think the important
[00:36:19] thing is not this. The important thing is that any country
[00:36:23] that has been determined to produce nuclear weapons
[00:36:26] has done it one way or another. So, this lack of capacity
[00:36:30] is not an obstacle to this program,
[00:36:33] it takes maybe 3 years, 5 years, 10 years,
[00:36:36] but countries that want to can reach that point. Therefore,
[00:36:40] the real question here is, does this
[00:36:43] country want to? I mean, does it want to acquire nuclear weapons?
[00:36:47] Political will plays a very important role here. That's
[00:36:50] why what I tried to explain in the report was that
[00:36:54] Ankara's perspective on nuclear weapons has undergone
[00:36:57] a significant change. And this change has actually
[00:37:01] been happening since the July 15 coup attempt, but we have
[00:37:05] seen it gain momentum in recent years. Now, actually,
[00:37:08] Turkey ratified the Nuclear Non-Proliferation
[00:37:11] Treaty in 1980,
[00:37:13] and later also ratified the additional protocol, meaning
[00:37:17] all of Turkey's nuclear activities are subject
[00:37:20] to international control, and for many years, Turkey
[00:37:24] has been a country that opposes nuclear proliferation and wants
[00:37:28] a nuclear-weapon-free Middle East. That is, it has not
[00:37:31] only signed international agreements, but has also
[00:37:34] adopted this as a norm. At the point we are today,
[00:37:38] however, when we look at the statements of President
[00:37:41] Erdoğan and recently Foreign Minister Hakan Fidan,
[00:37:44] we see a different language. Instead of a categorical
[00:37:48] statement like "Turkey doesn't need nuclear
[00:37:52] weapons," the message now is that if
[00:37:55] the world continues to change like this, Turkey may
[00:37:59] have to consider this option. We saw this most recently
[00:38:03] in Mr. Hakan Fidan's message, but before that, in 2019,
[00:38:06] for example, Mr. Erdoğan had made
[00:38:10] a similar statement, and interestingly
[00:38:14] enough, in his statement, he said this
[00:38:17] during a speech about the progress Turkey has
[00:38:20] made in the defense industry, saying
[00:38:23] that actually, such weapons are against Islam,
[00:38:28] but if the balance of power requires it,
[00:38:30] Turkey may also need to acquire these weapons,
[00:38:34] and he emphasized that double standard, asking why
[00:38:37] countries like Israel in the region have nuclear
[00:38:41] weapons but we don't, all developed countries have them.
[00:38:45] Therefore, we understand that Mr. Erdoğan also
[00:38:48] sees acquiring nuclear weapons as a source
[00:38:51] of prestige. Now, my main
[00:38:54] argument in my report is that it's a very low
[00:38:57] probability that Turkey will try to make a bomb
[00:39:01] in the short term, but instead of completely closing
[00:39:04] the nuclear option, it is becoming increasingly
[00:39:08] likely that it wants to create a capacity
[00:39:11] that would allow it to have this option if
[00:39:14] conditions change in the future. This is called hedging in the
[00:39:18] literature, meaning roughly keeping the nuclear option
[00:39:22] open, we can say. So, today, Turkey
[00:39:25] is not saying "I'm building a bomb," it's not crossing
[00:39:29] the threshold, but if the security environment
[00:39:32] completely changes tomorrow, it doesn't want to start
[00:39:35] from scratch, and it is developing the technological
[00:39:38] and scientific infrastructure that will
[00:39:41] allow it to reach that capacity if necessary
[00:39:44] in the future. Here, I'd like to try to explain
[00:39:48] a point that caught my eye, hoping it will be clarifying.
[00:39:52] So, okay, Turkey has entered a nuclear energy
[00:39:55] program, but to own
[00:39:58] nuclear weapons, as far as I know, the issue
[00:40:01] that got Iran into trouble was
[00:40:04] being able to enrich uranium. This
[00:40:08] is the next stage, you say that these capabilities
[00:40:11] make a country able to
[00:40:15] keep that open as an option.
[00:40:18] Now, Saudi Arabia, perhaps
[00:40:22] with similar current concerns, if
[00:40:25] you'd like to elaborate, wants to enter a nuclear
[00:40:28] program, but it needed approval from America.
[00:40:31] Trump even gave it the green light,
[00:40:35] and then for the uranium enrichment
[00:40:38] part, he said to sign the Abraham Accords and
[00:40:42] so on. Now, I just learned from you, Gönül Tol,
[00:40:46] that Saudi Arabia also announced a uranium discovery,
[00:40:49] but what we see here is that you need
[00:40:53] to have the capacity to enrich uranium to enter
[00:40:58] into weapons production, or because
[00:41:01] they probably aren't telling you to make weapons with uranium
[00:41:05] you get from others, if so, please correct me,
[00:41:08] but it seems like a kind of permission mechanism
[00:41:12] is needed. What do you say?
[00:41:15] Yes, actually, you mentioned very important
[00:41:19] points here. It needs to be elaborated. Yes, uranium
[00:41:22] enrichment is the most important technology in nuclear
[00:41:26] weapons production. This uranium
[00:41:29] enrichment technology, but the only way to produce
[00:41:32] nuclear weapons is not through uranium
[00:41:36] enrichment technology. You can also acquire
[00:41:39] nuclear weapons by enriching plutonium.
[00:41:42] India used this technology in the 1970s, and
[00:41:46] interestingly, this is a technology produced by Canada.
[00:41:49] Canada, and currently Turkey is in talks with
[00:41:53] Canada for the second and third nuclear
[00:41:57] facility, and the Canadian diplomats I spoke to
[00:42:00] say that there is a significant technology
[00:42:04] sharing on the table, from our perspective,
[00:42:07] but Canadian diplomats say that
[00:42:11] there is a very serious technology sharing issue on the table.
[00:42:15] No final decision has been reached yet, but
[00:42:18] why am I talking about Canada? Because Canadian
[00:42:21] technology, actually, Canada is the country
[00:42:25] with the fastest nuclear weapons acquisition capacity
[00:42:28] with this technology it has, and it doesn't
[00:42:31] do this by enriching uranium, because the technology
[00:42:34] it uses does not require uranium enrichment,
[00:42:38] instead it uses plutonium. And while this
[00:42:41] plutonium is used, I am not an engineer,
[00:42:44] I am sharing as much as I
[00:42:48] understand and what has been shared with me.
[00:42:50] If you go into producing nuclear weapons
[00:42:54] through plutonium, this also provides
[00:42:56] you with an advantage in that you can produce
[00:43:00] it much faster, but at the same time,
[00:43:04] it allows you to evade international
[00:43:07] inspection mechanisms. This is one.
[00:43:11] Therefore, Turkey's doing this with Canada
[00:43:15] and especially requesting technology sharing
[00:43:18] made me think that this hedging,
[00:43:22] this path of keeping the nuclear option open,
[00:43:25] is being pursued. This reinforces my view.
[00:43:29] Secondly, let's say a country,
[00:43:32] especially a country that has signed
[00:43:36] the NPT, the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty,
[00:43:40] like Turkey, can be asked this question:
[00:43:43] There is an inspection mechanism, how will
[00:43:47] it do it secretly? That's the question.
[00:43:50] The answer is actually that the
[00:43:53] content of this agreement, this Nuclear Non-Proliferation
[00:43:56] Treaty, actually
[00:43:59] allows you to gather and build
[00:44:03] all the necessary technological capabilities up to
[00:44:06] the step before a nuclear weapon. Therefore,
[00:44:10] Turkey, when it says it wants to build
[00:44:13] all the technology up to a nuclear
[00:44:17] weapon, is actually not violating
[00:44:20] any international agreement. Now, regarding
[00:44:24] Saudi Arabia, the nuclear agreement Saudi
[00:44:27] Arabia signed with the US is
[00:44:30] a very important agreement.
[00:44:34] So far, the agreements signed by America
[00:44:38] with other countries for
[00:44:40] peaceful nuclear programs are called 123
[00:44:43] agreements. It signed with the United Arab
[00:44:46] Emirates in the past. It signed these agreements
[00:44:49] with Turkey from the region. The agreement it signed
[00:44:53] with Saudi Arabia is different from these 123
[00:44:56] agreements. Why is it different? Because
[00:44:59] it opens the way for uranium enrichment.
[00:45:03] It doesn't directly give the green light.
[00:45:06] It says, "Let's see the situation on the
[00:45:10] ground for two years." "If the agreement is approved
[00:45:13] in its current form, Saudi Arabia will be able
[00:45:16] to pursue uranium enrichment. All these things create
[00:45:20] concern in the region. I want to touch on this point:
[00:45:23] why is there a change in Turkey's attitude? Because
[00:45:26] it is also related to Saudi Arabia's current
[00:45:29] position. Now, why has Turkey been so
[00:45:33] against nuclear armament for decades, from the
[00:45:35] 60s, 70s, 80s, and then since
[00:45:39] 2011, there has been a change in this
[00:45:42] direction, and the current regional conjuncture reinforces
[00:45:46] this change, this motivation. What happened? First, of course,
[00:45:49] in the current conjuncture, the Iran war, meaning
[00:45:53] not only Turkey but also regional countries,
[00:45:57] when they look at today's Iranian regime, compared
[00:46:00] to the Iranian regime before the February
[00:46:03] 28th War, they see that its desire to acquire
[00:46:06] nuclear weapons is much stronger. Therefore,
[00:46:10] there is an Iran next to us with a very high potential
[00:46:13] to acquire nuclear weapons. This is one of the motivations.
[00:46:16] Secondly, Israel. Of course, there is a very
[00:46:20] serious conflict between Turkey and Israel,
[00:46:23] there are conflicting interests. And then of course,
[00:46:27] Israel has nuclear weapons, but Turkey was
[00:46:30] saying, "Why does the international system treat Israel differently?"
[00:46:34] And for Ankara, this perception of double
[00:46:37] standards is not new, it has always said this.
[00:46:40] Today, with relations with Israel so tense,
[00:46:44] and Israel's nuclear program, its nuclear
[00:46:48] weapons, so openly discussed, some Israeli
[00:46:51] politicians talked about using
[00:46:55] a nuclear bomb in Gaza. Until now, nothing was
[00:46:58] said about this, everyone knew Israel had nuclear
[00:47:02] weapons, but no one was saying anything. This
[00:47:05] has been made public, and it changes the balance of power.
[00:47:09] Thirdly, Saudi Arabia. When Turkey looks at the
[00:47:13] region, everyone is acquiring them. Saudi Arabia's
[00:47:17] Mohammed bin Salman also said, "We can
[00:47:20] also acquire nuclear weapons if Iran does."
[00:47:23] This is an extra factor. And fourthly,
[00:47:27] and I think most importantly, confidence in America's
[00:47:31] security guarantees to the world, to Turkey, to
[00:47:34] NATO, has weakened greatly. I mean, today there's
[00:47:37] an American president who says he'll withdraw from NATO.
[00:47:41] Now, on the one hand, we are part of NATO's
[00:47:45] nuclear security umbrella. There are five countries,
[00:47:48] and Turkey is one. So, you might think,
[00:47:52] why would we want our own nuclear weapons, they're right here, we're under this
[00:47:56] umbrella. But on the other hand, there's
[00:48:00] a technical problem there, a technical problem
[00:48:03] caused by F-35s, which I'll explain shortly,
[00:48:07] and politically, we don't know.
[00:48:10] America thinks that Turkey didn't stand by
[00:48:14] us during critical times, like when
[00:48:17] we shot down the Russian plane, and we had
[00:48:21] many problems. Why should we trust its nuclear
[00:48:24] So, that is, our exclusion from the F-35
[00:48:27] program might have had many negative effects,
[00:48:30] but one of the things that is not discussed at all is the nuclear
[00:48:34] issue, because F-35s
[00:48:37] have the nuclear
[00:48:40] bomb carrying certificate.
[00:48:44] Currently, since Turkey has been excluded from the F-35
[00:48:47] and does not have the F-35, it does not have a nuclear
[00:48:51] weapon carrying certified aircraft.
[00:48:54] Let's say, God forbid, there was such a threat,
[00:48:57] where would it come from? We would
[00:49:00] talk to America, America would give permission, America would bring such
[00:49:04] an aircraft from Europe, so all these are developments that
[00:49:08] increase Turkey's nuclear concerns. Gönül Tol, thank
[00:49:11] you very much, I learned a lot. Yes, if
[00:49:14] you have any questions, please ask them. One thing caught my attention and
[00:49:18] I was saddened, to be honest. Is this just your opinion while preparing
[00:49:21] your report? Did you get information from officials?
[00:49:25] I even took notes so I wouldn't misunderstand. Now you said that among the reasons
[00:49:28] for Turkey's acquisition of nuclear weapons, among the reasons that drove it to this,
[00:49:31] the first was Iran's efforts to acquire nuclear weapons,
[00:49:34] and the second was the concern about
[00:49:38] Israel's acquisition of nuclear weapons. Do
[00:49:40] you think Turkey sees Iran as the primary threat?
[00:49:43] Well, Turkey has always said
[00:49:46] that it sees Israel as a threat, but
[00:49:50] now...
[00:49:53] even before this war, Turkey's stance was: We
[00:49:56] support Iran's peaceful nuclear program, and we even
[00:50:00] support its right to enrich uranium. Turkey,
[00:50:04] rightly so, said that the
[00:50:07] Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty
[00:50:10] gives the signatory country the right to enrich
[00:50:13] uranium. Therefore, Iran also has this right.
[00:50:16] Now, during the nuclear negotiations with Iran during the Obama era,
[00:50:20] this caused a reaction in Washington,
[00:50:24] it caused a reaction. Turkey often said that Iran could enrich uranium,
[00:50:28] but it also always said that
[00:50:31] we are against a nuclear Iran, meaning an Iran that has acquired
[00:50:34] nuclear weapons. Therefore,
[00:50:38] now, at the point we have reached today, there was
[00:50:41] such a perception in Ankara about the previous regime: a very pragmatic
[00:50:45] regime that did not want to take risks regarding nuclear
[00:50:49] issues. However, at the point we have reached today,
[00:50:52] this regime is much more
[00:50:55] inclined to take risks, they believe this.
[00:50:58] If you ask which one they see as a greater threat, of course,
[00:51:02] I cannot answer this from an analytical
[00:51:05] perspective, but both of them, and on the other hand,
[00:51:09] a region heading towards a nuclear arms race poses a threat
[00:51:12] to Turkey. On the other hand, let me also add that it's not only in the Middle East,
[00:51:16] but also in Europe.
[00:51:20] Countries that are concerned about Trump's security
[00:51:23] guarantee and the future of NATO have also adopted
[00:51:26] this hedging strategy that Turkey has, for example,
[00:51:30] Poland or Norway, many European
[00:51:33] countries no longer trust NATO in this sense. So all
[00:51:37] these things are pushing Turkey to reconsider
[00:52:50] bother me. This is not a polemic or anything, of course, but I don't agree with Gönül Hanım.
[00:52:54] Iran, India had a very good policy once, now it has changed.
[00:52:57] It used to say, "I am against nuclear weapons, and so are you, no doubt."
[00:53:01] Hmm, India said, "nuclear
[00:53:04] weapons should be in everyone's hands or in no one's hands, it's that simple."
[00:53:08] I,
[00:53:12] absolutely, I am for that too, I wish it weren't in anyone's hands. But if it is in some people's hands,
[00:53:15] it should be in everyone's hands. So if Israel has it, Iran should not have it, if Pakistan
[00:53:19] has it and India has it, Pakistan should not have it, that's not possible,
[00:53:22] but there shouldn't be weapons. Two standards are the root
[00:53:25] of all problems.
[01:01:10] had met here before with a similar approach.
[01:01:13] When? Immediately
[01:01:17] after Trump, right? Because
[01:01:20] the giants of that technology
[01:01:24] world, the richest people in the world, were together. And
[01:01:27] you talked about an alliance then.
[01:01:31] A lot of time has passed, and I think we have
[01:01:33] started to see the results
[01:01:37] of this alliance, am I right? Yes, we have started to see them.
[01:01:41] Now, while preparing for the broadcast for you,
[01:01:44] it came at just the right time, we even talked about it with you. There's
[01:01:48] a very popular author, Noam Klein, and a new book he wrote
[01:01:50] with Astra Taylor just came
[01:01:54] out and let me tell you the title of that
[01:01:57] book: "Doomsday Fascism and the Fight for a Living
[01:02:00] World." In it, of course,
[01:02:04] it explains a lot by dissecting
[01:02:07] the alliance behind Trump, but
[01:02:10] there, what we will talk about in a moment,
[01:02:14] this alliance that united behind
[01:02:17] Trump, can we call them techno-oligarchs?
[01:02:20] We can, I think techno-oligarchs is a very
[01:02:23] apt term to describe them. I prepared
[01:02:27] a statement about the techno-oligarchs behind
[01:02:30] Trump from an interview
[01:02:32] he gave. Let's listen to it, dear
[01:02:35] viewers, and then we will discuss it.
[01:02:39] We see that the Trump administration is all
[01:02:43] in, all in on AI and not much else. So
[01:02:47] when we look
[01:02:50] the second Trump inauguration, we see all those tech execs given their
[01:02:53] front seats and and they're lined up, our position
[01:02:57] is that that it was the AI, the the
[01:03:00] promise of generative AI eating the economy that actually turned
[01:03:04] them, uh turned them fascist and caused this
[01:03:07] incredible alliance with the Trump regime that we're seeing. Yeah, that they that
[01:03:11] they that that that alliance has that alliance has served
[01:03:14] them incredibly well. It has produced the first trillionaire. It has
[01:03:18] produced companies that are claiming valuations roughly
[01:03:21] equivalent to the to the entire US economy, and what they
[01:03:25] wanted from Donald Trump was exactly what they got, a frontier. You
[01:03:29] use the, you, you hear this phrase used all the time now, frontier
[01:03:32] AI. But if you think about what a frontier is, a frontier is a wild
[01:03:36] west, it has no
[01:03:37] rules.
[01:03:41] What would you like to say? First of all, we started with that
[01:03:45] photo, I think, when I was here last, and I remember
[01:03:49] saying then that all these people were against Trump
[01:03:52] in the previous Trump era and openly so,
[01:03:56] clearly against him. Even Jeff Bezos's newspaper came out with the headline
[01:04:01] "Democracy Dies in Darkness". We asked the question, "What
[01:04:04] happened that they lined up behind Trump today?" That day,
[01:04:08] and since then, exactly what you said happened, that is, their lining
[01:04:11] up behind Trump, starting with Elon Musk,
[01:04:14] but for all of them, for Sam Altman, for Dario
[01:04:17] Amadei, for Jeff Bezos, for all of them,
[01:04:21] it returned as an economic contribution. Now,
[01:04:25] Artificial Intelligence, you also talked about it last week, is Artificial
[01:04:28] Intelligence a threat to humanity?
[01:04:32] Can Artificial Intelligence kill us? Trump's
[01:04:36] reaction to these questions is also very big. For the past 2-3 days, he has been
[01:04:39] constantly saying that this is a conspiracy theory,
[01:04:43] that it's a lie like COVID, and that only an intelligent,
[01:04:46] high-IQ (in parentheses) president can overcome
[01:04:49] this. He is very right about this, because Trump
[01:04:53] has midterm elections ahead of him. We all know the importance
[01:04:57] of keeping both the Congress and the Senate together for a president,
[01:05:01] if we know a little about American politics. And
[01:05:04] the only force driving Trump right now
[01:05:08] is the economy looking good. And there's only one way for the economy
[01:05:11] to look good. Klein said something very true there. Artificial
[01:05:15] Intelligence created the world's first dollar trillionaire.
[01:05:18] Elon Musk, but as we have been talking about for the
[01:05:22] past two days, he is a dollar trillionaire because
[01:05:25] he valued that company as such. That
[01:05:28] is, tomorrow, if someone for Space,
[01:05:31] says, "Wait a minute, this company cannot have such a value," or if
[01:05:35] people decide to sell, or if the largest
[01:05:38] founding fund that moves SpaceX on the
[01:05:41] stock market is seized,
[01:05:44] how will this dollar
[01:05:48] trillionaire be a dollar trillionaire then? There is
[01:05:51] no concrete equivalent for this.
[01:05:54] It is wrong to say that there is no economic or financial
[01:05:57] equivalent, of course, there is. People see
[01:06:01] a future in this technology, and they are already
[01:06:03] investing in this technology.
[01:06:06] But to think that the equivalent is instantaneous,
[01:06:09] that if Elon Musk is asked to write a check for one trillion dollars
[01:06:13] and he goes to the bank, he can give it, yes, he
[01:06:17] cannot give it. And this
[01:06:20] is actually one of the most feared things in America,
[01:06:24] that this is also a bubble, an artificial intelligence bubble,
[01:06:27] and if the artificial intelligence bubble bursts, who
[01:06:31] will be left underneath? Now, normally, when bubbles
[01:06:34] burst, we fear that small investors will be left underneath,
[01:06:38] we fear loss of labor, because companies
[01:06:41] have also invested in funds, and when those
[01:06:44] funds lose, they also lose from the company's daily operating
[01:06:47] capital. But artificial intelligence has a strange
[01:06:50] feature. Artificial intelligence does not create labor,
[01:06:54] on top of that, it can even lead to a decrease
[01:06:57] in labor.
[01:07:00] People who reduce labor, that is, people whose
[01:07:03] labor is reduced, probably do not own
[01:07:06] SpaceX stock. However, the executives
[01:07:09] of companies that reduce labor costs by using
[01:07:13] artificial intelligence probably own
[01:07:16] SpaceX stock. Now, in this whole
[01:07:19] story, naturally, the president of Nvidia,
[01:07:23] Trump, Trump's two
[01:07:26] sons, Donald Trump Jr. and Eric Trump, because
[01:07:30] both of them entered this business of creating
[01:07:33] data centers for artificial intelligence with very high-value
[01:07:37] investments. All of them say, "No, they are exaggerating,
[01:07:40] there is no such thing, they are just scaring the nation for no reason."
[01:07:44] Even Andrew Yang, one of the presidential
[01:07:47] candidates, said on television the other
[01:07:51] day that actually, they only have one thing, they want
[01:07:54] to do what they want to do. They sent so
[01:07:58] many agents to the internet, as bots to forums,
[01:08:01] they polluted the internet. By polluting, he meant
[01:08:05] they made it unusable for artificial intelligence, because
[01:08:09] the data you retrieve is the data you wrote, and it constantly
[01:08:12] says, "I already did this," so artificial
[01:08:16] intelligence continues without learning anything new.
[01:08:18] On top of all this, of course, Andrew
[01:08:22] Yang, as a very libertarian person, said, "No, there's no such thing, don't
[01:08:25] be afraid at all, artificial intelligence won't eat us, these people just want
[01:08:29] to create a synthetic internet so they can organize it
[01:08:33] with lower costs, that's why they're saying
[01:08:36] this." They entered the story,
[01:08:40] but as you can see, Trump is very... You said Trump,
[01:08:43] Trump never leaves a story, you know. Now, while watching
[01:08:46] Trump on screen, Trump has made a statement.
[01:08:50] As you know, next week there are United Nations General Assembly
[01:08:53] meetings, and this Iran issue is of course a very
[01:08:56] important agenda item. And Trump just said that he
[01:09:00] can meet face-to-face with Iranian President Pezeshkian
[01:09:03] on the sidelines of the United Nations General Assembly sessions. Now, that
[01:09:07] will probably also appear on our screens as a last-minute
[01:09:10] news.
[01:09:13] It's an important statement, but will he meet or
[01:09:16] not? What will happen at the last minute? Meanwhile,
[01:09:19] will he attack Iran? We don't know these things. At the
[01:09:23] end of the day, while he is still at the table with Iran, and the President
[01:09:26] of Oman officially came on television and said, "Wait
[01:09:29] a minute, please don't do anything to each other," it is not very possible
[01:09:32] for anyone to say that he
[01:09:36] will bomb while meeting, or that he will bomb while
[01:09:39] meeting. They also need artificial intelligence for the
[01:09:43] Iran war. Because Iran is now
[01:09:46] thinking, "Will I enter with ground forces?"
[01:09:49] No head of state, especially an American head of state, wants to send
[01:09:53] troops to the field close to an election, especially since the last 50
[01:09:56] years have been filled with endless wars. But through artificial
[01:10:00] intelligence, drones, and through artificial
[01:10:03] intelligence, surveillance, these are all things
[01:10:06] that benefit him. To be able to use these, he needs to
[01:10:10] keep artificial intelligence companies free
[01:10:13] from regulation. Yes,
[01:10:16] as you also talked about last week, whenever
[01:10:19] artificial intelligence is discussed in America, the first thing that is said is, "But
[01:10:23] China, what if China gets ahead of us?" The situation
[01:10:25] of China and America regarding artificial intelligence is also
[01:10:28] very interesting, because China does not actually have
[01:10:32] the computing power, that is, processor
[01:10:36] power, used for operating artificial intelligence, because how many chips can be given
[01:10:40] to them, who can give them chips, all these are under
[01:10:44] America's control since the Biden era. But China has this advantage:
[01:10:47] they can obtain the artificial intelligence idea
[01:10:51] and the code through industrial
[01:10:55] agents or by escaping regulatory
[01:10:58] limitations, and after
[01:11:02] obtaining it and distilling it like
[01:11:05] whiskey, they can transfer it to their own
[01:11:09] companies. Thus, they don't have to spend
[01:11:12] the energy spent until they reach that point,
[01:11:16] that is, until they reach Chat GPT 5.5. But at the same time,
[01:11:19] they are also following America. It's a bit like
[01:11:22] a situation in holiday resorts, where a speed
[01:11:26] boat goes ahead, and behind it come inflatable
[01:11:30] banana boats and other water toys. And it's
[01:11:34] like the one behind saying, "We're catching up." No,
[01:11:38] you're not catching up, you can go because it's going.
[01:11:41] Therefore, if America
[01:11:44] slows down, China will probably also have to slow
[01:11:47] down. Or, these are like two athletes running
[01:11:51] tied together. That is, America thinks it's
[01:11:54] ahead, but China is right behind it, and because it's tied
[01:11:57] to it, the further America goes, the further China
[01:12:00] will go. And naturally, when they meet again
[01:12:04] at the United Nations, Xi Jinping, Artificial Intelligence,
[01:12:08] and artificial intelligence regulation are planned to be discussed a lot.
[01:12:11] The two geopolitical giants of the world are very
[01:12:15] interesting in terms of artificial intelligence, because as you notice, we are
[01:12:18] not saying Russia, we are not saying the European Union, Turkey, Mexico,
[01:12:21] Brazil, India, we are not saying any of them.
[01:12:25] Their contribution to artificial intelligence is probably their engineers,
[01:12:28] meaning the human resources they train work in artificial intelligence laboratories.
[01:12:32] These two geopolitical powers, two geopolitical
[01:12:35] powers whose foreign policies are almost completely
[01:12:38] opposite, are in a race
[01:12:42] for a technology that can change that foreign policy or any
[01:12:46] domestic or foreign policy. But as I said, their race
[01:12:49] is like two athletes tied together, and therefore,
[01:12:52] one slowing down also slows down the other. One opening
[01:12:56] up regulation also opens up the other. It's not like
[01:13:00] the nuclear weapons issue, yes, there's an even more intense
[01:13:03] story with nuclear weapons, of course, if you don't stop, the other
[01:13:06] side doesn't stop either, and like in Stanley
[01:13:09] Kubrick's famous movie, Dr.
[01:13:13] Strangelove, "I can't stop because you don't stop."
[01:13:17] Since this is a different position, I understood it better.
[01:13:20] So, Trump has both political
[01:13:23] reasons not to regulate artificial intelligence,
[01:13:27] but also, in a way that we can easily explain
[01:13:31] now, personal and business-related
[01:13:34] reasons. That is, his two sons will make an incredible
[01:13:38] amount of money from data centers, that is, from data
[01:13:40] centers. They are making money, they will continue
[01:13:44] to make money. And his son-in-law, Jared
[01:13:47] Kushner, is involved in so many things
[01:13:51] that, as Americans would say, he has
[01:13:55] a finger in every pie. He goes to everyone
[01:13:58] for negotiations, and he never hesitates to say that
[01:14:02] he conducts all these negotiations like a business negotiation.
[01:14:05] if if they were doing well today, he wouldn't need to be sitting at that table,
[01:14:09] we are seeing a kind of reflection of America's boncher crisis
[01:14:13] in Turkey. Therefore, regulating
[01:14:15] yansımasını görüyor gibiyiz, dolayısıyla Trump için
[01:14:19] artificial intelligence right now is not a good solution
[01:14:23] or in terms of his economic relations. It's not a solution
[01:14:26] for Trump politically that suits him. So why
[01:14:29] would these techno-oligarchs want
[01:14:32] it to be regulated, and why would they go on TV
[01:14:36] and say, "This should happen, that should happen," why
[01:14:39] is the end of the world coming? Because I remember saying, when I last came,
[01:14:43] "Sam Altman, yes, AI can kill us all, but
[01:14:46] trust us, we will do it." I said, "Why
[01:14:50] should I trust you with such a thing?" Uh, I said that. Now,
[01:14:54] Saman's IPO is already a problem,
[01:14:57] because it started as a non-profit organization, and it got money from
[01:15:01] Elon Musk. Elon Musk and he are still fighting
[01:15:04] about this. But Antropic, SpaceX, all of these
[01:15:08] either had their IPOs or will have them.
[01:15:11] It's on the agenda, and engineers are coming out one
[01:15:15] after another and saying that AI can bring about the end of all
[01:15:18] of us. You don't see it, but what is called the limit of AI
[01:15:22] the wild west. Now, in Turkey, when we think
[01:15:25] of a border, since we come from a state
[01:15:29] tradition, for us, borders are very solid things. If you
[01:15:32] even come to the very edge of the border, you can't go
[01:15:36] But for Americans, this word "frontier" or "border" is
[01:15:39] very important, because when they discovered America
[01:15:43] and started settling, especially the west
[01:15:47] side, what we know as the wild west,
[01:15:49] was empty. By empty, of course, there were Native
[01:15:53] Americans there, but they didn't have the weapon power
[01:15:57] or this or that, and they could go there and, after all
[01:16:00] kinds of harassment and assault on their lives,
[01:16:03] their settlements, their economic order, they could settle
[01:16:05] there. Therefore, what we mean by "if
[01:16:09] it's a border, it's a border" actually means boundlessness
[01:16:12] and ungovernability for them.
[01:16:15] I think the most important thing about the frontier,
[01:16:19] as James Scott said in "Social", is
[01:16:22] where governance is difficult. For us, it's the place
[01:16:25] in the story of "if you can't reach it, it's not yours."
[01:16:29] Now, when it's like
[01:16:31] this, everyone says that people will die because of AI,
[01:16:35] and you will open your company to the public. The first
[01:16:38] wait a minute, if this is so bad, there will be
[01:16:42] an incredible state regulation. When incredible
[01:16:46] state regulation comes, there will be so much reporting, so many
[01:16:49] bureaucratic obstacles that they won't be able to generate
[01:16:53] back to the original point. Right? If they can't generate
[01:16:56] the profits they want, then their pricing will be
[01:17:00] a bubble. Therefore, even if they start with very
[01:17:03] high prices, they will probably at first
[01:17:07] collect shares from what we call small and
[01:17:10] predatory fund companies, increase the price, and then
[01:17:13] suddenly sell the shares will collect them again
[01:17:17] from the bottom. This circulation will continue. So
[01:17:20] what do you do? At the end of the day, the manager of
[01:17:23] the Anthropic company, who has very philosophical
[01:17:26] thoughts, who approaches
[01:17:29] AI from a very philosophical perspective, if anyone uses
[01:17:32] the latest model of Claude, do something, it says it
[01:17:36] doesn't find it ethical and doesn't do it. Despite
[01:17:39] all of this, at the end of the day, every company
[01:17:42] exists to make money. This doesn't make
[01:17:45] them the evil boss in Turkish movies, because
[01:17:48] those companies will make money so they can pay taxes,
[01:17:52] they don't pay taxes. There's also this beauty.
[01:17:56] Because in the long run, if you come and set up
[01:18:00] a data center in my city,
[01:18:02] there are governors who say they will give you tax
[01:18:06] exemptions. There are mayors and governors
[01:18:09] who want to give incredibly cheap land to Amazon,
[01:18:13] Elon Musk, Anthropic, OpenAI, Meta
[01:18:16] to get data centers for themselves, so it's not
[01:18:20] that either. But therefore, what should you do? If
[01:18:24] you are a sensible manager, and all
[01:18:27] these people are not only sensible, but
[01:18:31] also incredibly intelligent people,
[01:18:34] we normal mortals can imagine, therefore, to prevent
[01:18:38] this, they all said, "We are aware of everything
[01:18:42] and we will slow down," but their real litmus
[01:18:45] test will be, when a president
[01:18:48] who cares about this, not Trump, comes along,
[01:18:52] "Yes, gentlemen," all gentlemen,
[01:18:55] because we will sit at the table and
[01:18:59] talk about how this regulation will be. How will I regulate
[01:19:02] you? What do you know and what don't you know about
[01:19:06] Can they really appear on the internet in
[01:19:10] a corrupted way, or was it actually a PR
[01:19:13] stunt of yours that backfired? Because this constantly
[01:19:15] escaping AI agent from the sandbox, as
[01:19:19] they call it, which is exactly a sandbox for children,
[01:19:23] is also a kind of PR, meaning they are so smart that
[01:19:26] they can escape from our sandbox. I really
[01:19:30] believe in something here. A psychology professor
[01:19:33] from Berkeley said this, but I unfortunately
[01:19:37] can't remember his name right now. We need to stop attributing
[01:19:40] human characteristics to AI. Uh-huh. I mean,
[01:19:43] AI doesn't escape, because AI cannot escape, because
[01:19:47] it's a being made up of ones and zeros. AI doesn't
[01:19:51] make decisions on its own. AI can add to
[01:19:54] the algorithm it was taught before, we're not saying
[01:19:57] it can't learn, but it's still from that data
[01:20:01] set, humanity's... the ability to think
[01:20:04] something that will never happen at a time that
[01:20:07] will never happen, but isn't that very dangerous?
[01:20:11] We are already very dangerous, we are already
[01:20:14] very dangerous, but at the same time, this
[01:20:17] is always our advantage against AI.
[01:20:20] I am pessimistic and optimistic
[01:20:23] about AI. I believe we have an advantage
[01:20:27] over AI, but my students hear this
[01:20:30] example from me a lot. They asked people whether
[01:20:34] they wanted an AI or a human to fly a plane, and
[01:20:37] everyone expected them to say that planes crash due to
[01:20:40] pilot error. A significant portion of people
[01:20:43] said, "No, I want a human to fly it, because
[01:20:47] humans can come up with incredible solutions
[01:20:51] in difficult times." For example, you can't teach any
[01:20:54] AI to land in the Hudson River at any
[01:20:58] time, because you don't land in rivers, planes
[01:21:01] cannot land in rivers. Therefore, if humanity
[01:21:04] has a chance against AI, it's
[01:21:08] the virtues that come from being human. But
[01:21:11] at the same time, if there's something that makes
[01:21:15] AI very dangerous, it's that the people behind
[01:21:18] it are human, and our sometimes pure evil that comes
[01:21:21] from being human, meaning we accept being evil
[01:21:24] for no reason, just to be evil.
[01:21:28] And when you think about it, we're talking about
[01:21:31] an American president, power in the world.
[01:21:35] When entering wars, making sudden decisions,
[01:21:39] we have to stop and think every time whether
[01:21:43] what's on that president's mind is the survival of the state
[01:21:46] or his own business interests. So for
[01:21:50] people like me who work in political economy,
[01:21:53] it's an incredible laboratory environment, but at the
[01:21:56] same time, it's the biggest dream and biggest
[01:22:00] in political economy. I'll just say one thing, the subjects
[01:22:04] in the laboratory are us, the people
[01:22:07] of the world. They're not going to Mars to do this.
[01:22:11] And that's what was said in Naomi Klein's book "The Shock
[01:22:14] Doctrine". All these people accept the fact that
[01:22:18] this world is no longer livable and
[01:22:21] are acting to create a life for themselves
[01:22:24] outside of this world. So that dream of going
[01:22:28] to Mars is not just a dream, it's not just
[01:22:32] a dream of going to Mars. Buying land in New Zealand
[01:22:35] is not just a dream. Building a bunker
[01:22:38] is already a common thing in the American religious
[01:22:42] right, far right, and evangelical right, because,
[01:22:46] as Naomi Klein said, there are many doomsday scenarios.
[01:22:49] So there are people who believe that the end
[01:22:52] of the world is coming because of what they produce,
[01:22:55] or scientifically, there are people who believe
[01:22:59] that the end of the world has come, citing
[01:23:01] religious reasons. And there are also
[01:23:05] far-rightists who align with them.
[01:23:08] There are people who are eagerly awaiting
[01:23:11] the end of the world, meaning even if they
[01:23:15] themselves will die, they are waiting for
[01:23:18] the end of the world, because
[01:23:20] it's what we call crimes against humanity,
[01:23:24] hatred against humanity. Perhaps it's something
[01:23:28] that ordinary people can't comprehend, but yes,
[01:23:31] a human can feel hatred towards humanity. This
[01:23:35] is true, we see it when we read enough
[01:23:38] literature. Therefore, in such a world, if
[01:23:41] you think the end of the world is coming,
[01:23:45] for it (like Elon Musk), then you need to reach
[01:23:49] the money that will take
[01:23:58] The economic outputs are meaningless, because in your
[01:24:02] Almighty God's kingdom in heaven, economic
[01:24:05] outputs are meaningless. Then you want a bunker, because
[01:24:09] you will hide in bunkers, the doomsday will end,
[01:24:13] the Messiah will come and take you to where you need
[01:24:16] to go. If you are far-right, you are already
[01:24:20] an agent of chaos, and chaos is probably where
[01:24:23] the far-right and far-left meet in their agent
[01:24:26] roles. You already love that chaos and
[01:24:30] want to exist in chaos. And you must have heard
[01:24:32] that Hollywood is a very famous complotter; if Hollywood
[01:24:36] says something, it will definitely happen. That's
[01:24:39] why there are so many series now, like "The Last
[01:24:42] of Us," there were doomsday scenarios for people.
[01:24:46] Or screenwriters in Hollywood are also human and
[01:24:49] they fictionalize what they hear every day with
[01:24:52] their imagination, asking what would happen
[01:24:55] if it became reality. So this also has an economics,
[01:24:59] and economics needs to find something in my imagination.
[01:25:01] Now, when it's exactly like this, I of
[01:25:05] course wanted to include the far right, evangelists,
[01:25:08] etc. Why? Because all those who stand behind
[01:25:12] Trump are together, and Trump, or let's say the
[01:25:16] Trump administration, doesn't necessarily have to be him personally, but
[01:25:28] this coalition keeps it together, but these technology giants,
[01:25:31] let's say oligarchs, are producing
[01:25:36] something, and they are not very optimistic about the
[01:25:39] consequences, although we will pay the price. They say
[01:25:43] the world is ending, so should they go to space?
[01:25:47] But because of them, material resources are
[01:25:50] quickly depleting. But they don't seem
[01:25:53] to have an ideology. It's like the far-right
[01:25:56] suits us, right? On one hand, they are
[01:26:00] buying media, there's a lot of power. Can you
[01:26:03] I might be rambling intuitively, but no,
[01:26:07] not at all, and I think you're very right.
[01:26:11] They don't have an ideology. We know this best from
[01:26:14] Peter, even though he's the person
[01:26:17] we talk about the least, because he truly
[01:26:21] his characteristics, who Peter is, what he likes,
[01:26:25] what he doesn't like, what kind of life he has,
[01:26:28] very much in the background. The only thought in the
[01:26:32] mind of someone who has supported all these people
[01:26:35] we mentioned financially or intellectually
[01:26:38] at one time or another is that freedom and
[01:26:42] democracy cannot coexist. Now, saying that freedom
[01:26:45] and democracy cannot coexist means for us, who were
[01:26:48] born into liberal democracy like you and
[01:26:52] me, and have seen its best years and now
[01:26:56] see how it's rolling downhill, the question
[01:26:59] is, with what will these freedoms coexist? For
[01:27:03] Peter, the answer to this question is
[01:27:06] with intelligent people like me, intelligent
[01:27:09] white people or whatever. So there's a certain
[01:27:12] supremacism, there's a certain supremacism, but the most
[01:27:16] important characteristic is intelligence. They won't
[01:27:20] succumb to their emotions. And yes, it's good
[01:27:23] if they're white, because all these people, as we've
[01:27:27] discussed before, have passed through South Africa
[01:27:31] one way or another. It's interesting. There's
[01:27:34] something that the apartheid regime in South Africa
[01:27:36] ingrained in the human psyche. Hmm,
[01:27:40] şimdi aşırı sağ dediğimiz şeyin aslında bir
[01:27:43] ideolojisi yok yani şöyle bir ideolojisi var daha doğrusu yerleşik
[01:27:46] düzene karşı ama yerleşik düzenin karşısın Tamam,
[01:27:50] yerleşik düzenini de sevmiyorsun, yerleşik düzeninin elitlerini de
[01:27:53] sevmiyorsun, ama seni en
[01:27:56] çok iyi seninle en çok
[01:27:59] iletişime geçen de yerleşik düzerinin elitleri, yani Ellen Musk,
[01:28:02] Jeff Bezos, Jay Devons, Trump,
[01:28:05] Trump var, çünkü Trump bile onlardan aşağıda, çünkü
[01:28:08] JDV mesela yerleşik düzen eğer bir poster
[01:28:12] evladı yaratmak isteseydi JDVens'i yaratırdı, Fakir bir yerden
[01:28:15] çıkıyor, da hukuk diploması alıyor,
[01:28:19] işte. eee yatırım bankacılığı yapıyor daha
[01:28:22] it's racial discrimination,
[01:28:25] a race... yes, but that racial discrimination
[01:28:28] is now a strange racial discrimination, it's
[01:28:32] not like the racial discrimination in the American
[01:28:35] South. It's truly believed that there's an Aryan
[01:28:39] human. Now, what we call the far right
[01:28:43] actually doesn't have an ideology, or rather, it has an
[01:28:46] ideology against the established order. But against
[01:28:50] the established order... Okay, you don't like the established
[01:28:54] order, you don't like the elites of the established
[01:28:57] order, but the elites of the established order
[01:29:00] are the ones who communicate with you the most,
[01:29:04] like Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, J. D. Vance,
[01:29:08] Trump. Trump is there because even
[01:29:11] Trump is below them, because J. D. Vance,
[01:29:15] for example, if the established order wanted to create
[01:29:18] a poster child, it would create J. D. Vance.
[01:29:22] He comes from a poor background, gets a law
[01:29:26] degree, works in investment
[01:29:28] banking, what else could there be? What
[01:29:32] else can the established order offer a person
[01:29:36] who came out of the Appalachian Mountains? So
[01:29:39] while all this is happening, they don't have an ideology,
[01:29:43] but they know one thing: that all of
[01:29:46] them, including the Republicans, and I'm talking about
[01:29:49] real Republicanism, not where they are now,
[01:29:52] or if we talk about England, the Conservative
[01:29:56] Party, conservative liberals, liberals, left-liberals,
[01:30:00] and to some extent, socialists, are all against them.
[01:30:03] And the reasons for this alliance being against
[01:30:07] them are not the same, so this alliance cannot
[01:30:10] unite. But on this side, the far-right
[01:30:14] and far-left, which are against the alliance,
[01:30:17] meet at almost the same point. One of them
[01:30:21] meets in the means of production. There are
[01:30:25] no means of production there anyway. I mean,
[01:30:29] the means of production are ones and zeros.
[01:30:32] The other one meets in xenophobia,
[01:30:36] racism, sexism, and these
[01:30:39] are much easier and more homogeneous communities.
[01:30:42] Elon Musk, as an intelligent person,
[01:30:45] says, "I will go and support the AFD in Germany.
[01:30:48] Germany's political order may not collapse
[01:30:52] today, but it will be shaken. When it's shaken,
[01:30:56] this side will start approaching me to make
[01:31:00] a living. And I'll go to them a bit and
[01:31:04] start talking again, saying, 'Democracy is
[01:31:07] very important, we must all protect democracy,
[01:31:10] but we must also reduce the money the
[01:31:13] state spends, because the state spends too much
[01:31:17] money.'" But by doing all this, he's destroying
[01:31:21] all the institutions that he passed through.
[01:31:24] He must ensure that there are regulatory institutions
[01:31:27] so that no one stands in his way
[01:31:31] when he wants to run wild again. So
[01:31:34] there's no Henry Ford in the picture. For
[01:31:38] example, Henry Ford was someone who increased
[01:31:41] workers' wages while producing cars, because
[01:31:45] someone had to buy these cars, yes.
[01:31:48] But that's not the case for AI. For
[01:31:52] mythos, it doesn't matter whether you pay
[01:31:55] for clava or not, because those who will
[01:31:58] pay are universities, big think tanks.
[01:32:03] These are the people I'm interested in on
[01:32:06] average. They don't hire, I don't need
[01:32:09] to fight them. But we are excluding
[01:32:13] a very large segment of the public. Now,
[01:32:17] The Economist didn't attack Daron Acemoglu
[01:32:20] for nothing, because Daron Acemoglu,
[01:32:23] to an extent not expected from a Nobel-winning
[01:32:26] economist, suddenly started talking about
[01:32:30] class. He started
[01:32:33] saying that to save liberal democracy, we
[01:32:36] first need to end class warfare, that
[01:32:39] we are all in the same boat. However,
[01:32:43] as we just discussed, everyone here's thing
[01:32:46] is, "We are not in the same boat as you,
[01:32:50] we are not even in a boat, we got
[01:32:54] on a space rocket and we're going." This
[01:32:57] ship will probably sink, let's say
[01:33:01] that. Until it sinks, let's have a good time
[01:33:05] and make money from you. That's probably
[01:33:08] what Trump is doing, meaning I'm filling my
[01:33:12] pockets in the meantime. Trump's... Dion's last
[01:33:16] days, I'll have fun and fill my pockets. And he doesn't
[01:33:19] even have something like thinking long-term,
[01:33:23] because we all see it. I mean, this
[01:33:27] is no longer... I don't want to say anything
[01:33:30] about any president personally, but as
[01:33:34] political scientists,
[01:33:37] we're talking about someone who has the feeling
[01:33:40] of a 2-year-old child who doesn't want to give
[01:33:44] up something once he has it. So the American
[01:33:48] presidency was probably
[01:34:16] for on the internet. J. D. Vance would
[01:34:19] want to control what appears when people
[01:34:23] search for something on the internet.
[01:34:26] Trump doesn't have such a general
[01:34:30] principle. Trump is a merchant. Trump
[01:34:33] is a merchant, he says, "I'll look
[01:34:37] out for my money." J. D. Vance is
[01:34:40] also a merchant, but he's a merchant of ideas. And
[01:34:44] that's why I always
[01:34:52] say the same thing. If the next president
[01:34:55] of America after Trump is J. D. Vance,
[01:34:59] then the Democrats need to prepare themselves
[01:35:02] today for how they can act
[01:35:06] in that America. It won't happen,
[01:35:09] I tell you. Now, of course, it's
[01:35:13] coming out very little now, but everyone
[01:35:17] is watching closely. I think Daron Acemoglu
[01:35:19] probably wasn't unaware of the concept of class,
[01:35:23] but his need to say it now is
[01:35:26] also related to the spirit of the times,
[01:35:30] because yes, in New York, he mentions
[01:35:34] Memdani as a successful example. There are
[01:35:37] others in other parts of the world. Perhaps
[01:35:41] today in Berlin, there are also people
[01:35:45] who draw attention to these issues. They may
[01:35:48] be different from each other, we may not like
[01:35:52] all of them, but they are people who
[01:35:55] produce ideas and implement actions on
[01:35:59] the theme of living together. At least
[01:36:02] these are the people who are trying to
[01:36:05] keep some rules for what you called the
[01:36:09] lawless West. Now, there's someone trying
[01:36:12] to get into the Senate, Mısırlıet,
[01:36:15] I look at his words, it's very
[01:36:18] interesting. We share
[01:36:21] it with our viewers from time to time.
[01:36:25] Of course, it's not a fully established thing,
[01:36:28] it can't form an alliance as you
[01:36:32] said. But this has always been the
[01:36:35] case, even when there was a right-left
[01:36:38] distinction, the left when he was supposed
[01:36:41] to stay longer. Among these, of
[01:36:45] course, is President Erdoğan. Turkey is
[01:36:48] in fourth place, speeches start on
[01:36:51] Tuesday. Here, we know that when
[01:36:54] a journalist asked American Ambassador
[01:36:57] Thomas Barran at the 250th anniversary
[01:37:01] commemoration in Istanbul whether Erdoğan and
[01:37:04] Trump would meet bilaterally, he said,
[01:37:08] "They're good friends, it's possible." This
[01:37:11] doesn't mean that a meeting is scheduled
[01:37:14] or on the program. uhm, it seems he will
[01:37:17] attend this meeting, will Turkey be among them, we
[01:37:21] will see that too. Of course, Trump will
[01:37:24] discuss Iran war scenarios, because
[01:37:27] we know there is disappointment in Gulf countries. We
[01:37:31] constantly talk about America running out of ammunition.
[01:37:34] It is reported that Iran used cheap
[01:37:38] technology to transport and launch drones
[01:37:41] and missiles in this war.
[01:37:43] On the other hand. The first non-military
[01:37:47] company in America was included in ammunition production
[01:37:50] to speed it up. Such developments are happening.
[01:37:53] Of course, if Erdoğan and Trump meet, the
[01:37:57] promised NATO summit in Ankara after the CATSA sanctions
[01:38:01] have still not moved. These will come up again.
[01:38:05] Erdoğan last said that he was waiting for news from Al Jazeera
[01:38:08] and that he had promised it in Ankara. These processes continue like this.
[01:38:12] Therefore, many diplomatic meetings will take place.
[01:38:16] We should also remember that the biggest
[01:38:19] oil buyer, the Chinese President, is here
[01:38:23] during his visit. You must have talked about
[01:38:26] AI, I'm sure, AI regulations in America
[01:38:29] are calling for AI companies to be stopped
[01:38:33] because they shouldn't develop so fast, but the answer was
[01:38:37] that we would fall behind China. On the other hand,
[01:38:40] there are those who oppose the sale of F35s to
[01:38:44] Saudi Arabia because
[01:38:47] China can steal their technology more easily, both Republicans
[01:38:50] and Democrats. This week, Saudi Arabia's nuclear
[01:38:54] agreement was another point of contention in Washington.
[01:38:58] Republicans also oppose it. In this context,
[01:39:01] the Turkey and Mecca Agreement was mentioned. Wall Street Journal
[01:39:05] even said that Saudi Arabia was disappointed, that they
[01:39:09] didn't get what they expected from Pakistan and Turkey,
[01:39:12] even though this is a technical process. Will the parliament
[01:39:15] be skipped? What kind of formula will it be if it
[01:39:19] is skipped in Turkey? But there are also joint
[01:39:23] exercises, it's as if these big newspapers, big
[01:39:26] congressmen don't know them. They called on Turkey
[01:39:30] to destroy the Houthis and help Sudan. We have
[01:39:34] seen these too. What's interesting
[01:39:37] at the UN meetings is the Iranians.
[01:39:40] Of course, visas were given to Mahmoud Abbas,
[01:39:44] but on the other hand, visas were not given,
[01:39:47] they were banned. Let's also say this to the Iranians: they are forbidden to
[01:39:51] shop for luxury goods. Those who come with diplomatic
[01:39:54] visas, and even those who come to New York with
[01:39:58] tourist visas, have certain tax advantages in New York City.
[01:40:01] It was reported that they would be subject to
[01:40:04] these restrictions so that they don't buy expensive
[01:40:08] things and don't benefit from these privileges.
[01:40:11] The US Ambassador to the UN had some talks
[01:40:14] with the UAE and some consultants this week.
[01:40:18] The messages there were important. Looking at all
[01:40:21] these reflections, we see that the US is closely
[01:40:25] monitoring the tension between Saudi Arabia and
[01:40:28] the UAE, trying to unite them, and that it links
[01:40:31] the nuclear agreement to Saudi Arabia's
[01:40:35] adherence to the Abraham Accords. Let's remember
[01:40:39] that Mamdani had an important stance. He had said that
[01:40:42] if Netanyahu came, he wanted to have him arrested
[01:40:45] on the grounds of war crimes, but then realizing
[01:40:48] that he didn't have the authority to do this,
[01:40:51] he said he wouldn't even participate in protests.
[01:40:54] However, on Thursday, Mamdani appeared before
[01:40:58] the cameras with the head
[01:41:01] beklediklerini açıkladılar, eee fakat alınan önlemlere
[01:41:05] baktıkları zaman da aslında eee her zamanki
[01:41:08] BMGK önlemlerinden daha farklı olmadığını söylediler, tam
[01:41:11] konuşlanma her sene BMGK haftasında üst düzey haftada
[01:41:15] yapılıyor, yine bunun harekete geçirildiği eee trafik uçuş
[01:41:18] rotalarının da havaalanlarına yaya erişimine yönelik
[01:41:22] kısıtlamaların uygulanacağını
[01:41:24] eee biliyoruz, tabii eee asl olan Amerika ile Iran
[01:41:28] arasındaki çatışma sürerken İran
[01:41:32] liderinin şehirde olması eee tabii
[01:41:35] Netanyahu'yu tutuklama eee talebinden vazgeçti Mamdani
[01:41:39] da işte onun şehrinde öyle bir ziyaretin
[01:41:42] of the New York Police Department
[01:41:55] will also be in the streets.
[01:41:57] Opponents of Netanyahu will be in the streets chronically.
[01:42:01] They stated that they expect many protest
[01:42:04] waves, but when they looked at the measures taken,
[01:42:08] they said that they were not different from the
[01:42:11] usual UN Security Council measures. Full deployment
[01:42:15] takes place every year during the UN Security
[01:42:19] Council high-level week. We know that traffic
[01:42:23] flight routes and restrictions on pedestrian access
[01:42:26] to airports will be applied. Of course, the main
[01:42:29] thing is that the Iranian leader is in the city while the conflict
[01:42:33] between the US and Iran continues.
[01:42:37] Mamdani abandoned the request to arrest Netanyahu,
[01:42:40] and the fact that such a visit is taking place
[01:42:44] in his city is of course an interesting development.
[01:42:47] Thank you very much, Serra Karaçam. She will
[01:42:51] explain all the details on our screens throughout
[01:42:54] the week. Serra, it's very interesting,
[01:42:59] actually, I thought about it now.
[01:43:02] The Iranian president is given permission,
[01:43:05] Pezeshkian will attend as president, it should
[01:43:09] be like that, I mean, it's strange that they
[01:43:13] didn't do it for Palestine, but when the shopping
[01:43:16] ban came to my mind, didn't they torment the
[01:43:20] footballers a lot during the World Cup?
[01:43:23] So, tormenting them on the one hand and giving
[01:43:27] them visas on the other hand is completely...
[01:43:30] But it's already torment. There's also this thing,
[01:43:34] the soft power that's talked about a lot.
[01:43:37] It shows that I'm giving you the visa,
[01:43:41] but I'm also determining how you will spend
[01:43:43] a week or 10 days here. Sebra made a
[01:43:46] very correct statement about the UN Security
[01:43:50] Council's security measures, saying that they wouldn't
[01:43:53] be more than normal. This is a very important
[01:43:58] thing, by the way. Mamdani may not be
[01:44:01] able to do what he says, but it's always whatever
[01:44:05] it is. Therefore, for example,
[01:44:08] I would like to be there right now because I
[01:44:12] lived in New York for 8 years and I know what
[01:44:15] the security measures were like. Yes, a certain
[01:44:18] area is closed. Aren't curtains hung?
[01:44:21] Curtains are hung, and since vehicles will
[01:44:25] pass, there are traffic signs on the roads beforehand,
[01:44:28] saying you can't be here at this hour, move your
[01:44:31] car, etc. But if it's not going to be above
[01:44:35] average, then Mamdani should have said, "Yes,
[01:44:38] I can't arrest Netanyahu, but I won't allow you
[01:44:41] to be prevented from protesting as you wish."
[01:44:45] This is especially important, I think,
[01:44:48] on the 25th anniversary of 9/11, with the Muslim
[01:44:51] President being in New York, and with
[01:44:54] New York's history, I think it will be
[01:44:57] something that will be discussed more, especially
[01:45:00] in New York and in New York local journalism,
[01:45:04] even though I tend to link everything
[01:45:07] to political economy. We need to follow the money,
[01:45:10] and that's the important thing here. Now,
[01:45:13] all these seemingly incredible behaviors
[01:45:17] from Saudi Arabia always make people in
[01:45:20] America wonder what could have happened.
[01:45:24] I mean, these are just what kind of behaviors?
[01:45:27] The fact that America brokered the Mecca Agreement
[01:45:31] with Turkey and Pakistan and almost made them
[01:45:34] sit down together, the fact that Saudi
[01:45:37] Arabia has taken something into its circle,
[01:45:40] into its umbrella, using Turkey and Pakistan,
[01:45:43] and at the same time, the fact that they
[01:45:46] are buying F35s, because the thing America
[01:45:49] fears most is any of its technology reaching
[01:45:53] China, and it's expected that it will reach
[01:45:57] China from Saudi Arabia, much more easily than
[01:46:00] from any other US ally, including Turkey, Mexico,
[01:46:04] and Brazil. When asked how all this is happening,
[01:46:07] the answer again comes
[01:46:17] down to Trump and his family, because Jared
[01:46:20] Kushner, after Trump's first term,
[01:46:24] although he and his wife had said they
[01:46:28] didn't want to be at the forefront of politics
[01:46:31] again, yes, even though we don't see his
[01:46:35] wife with her father as constantly as before,
[01:46:38] Jared Kushner is constantly table with people,
[01:46:42] and it's claimed that the negotiations he makes
[01:46:45] at the bargaining table work, but we don't
[01:46:49] know what he gives in return. He's thought
[01:46:53] of as someone whose identity we don't
[01:46:56] know, but we do know.
[01:47:00] So, uhm, MBS, as he wants to be
[01:47:03] called, but Mohammed bin Salman,
[01:47:07] just as he didn't modernize when he made his name
[01:47:10] MBS, it is likely that Jared Kushner
[01:47:14] also gave him something financially in the F35
[01:47:17] purchase and in the umbrella agreement made
[01:47:20] with Turkey and Pakistan." It is thought that
[01:47:23] the price for this might be being paid,
[01:47:26] and this is widely discussed in America,
[01:47:30] because as you know, everywhere in the world,
[01:47:33] politicians are expected to reduce their other
[01:47:37] business relationships to zero the moment
[01:47:40] they enter politics, because you are sitting
[01:47:44] at that table, you have information that
[01:47:48] no one else has, that is, you have
[01:47:52] insider information in stock market terms, and..."
[01:47:55] He has an investment fund company, a private
[01:47:58] equity company, as they say. Saudi Arabia
[01:48:02] gave money to it, the United Arab Emirates
[01:48:06] gave money, and besides the United Arab Emirates,
[01:48:10] Qatar also gave money, and the only reason
[01:48:13] for this was that Qatar was under a
[01:48:17] heavy blockade by Saudi Arabia at the time.
[01:48:20] They used this to say, "I'm giving you
[01:48:24] this money through Jeff Kushner, and I'd
[01:48:27] be happy if you could get Saudi Arabia off
[01:48:31] my back." While all this money was being
[01:48:34] taken, Jared Kushner was not officially
[01:48:38] involved, so they were saying, "What kind
[01:48:42] of political weight would he have?" It's very
[01:48:45] clear that he will try. Similarly,
[01:48:48] with Russia, who they should be at
[01:48:52] loggerheads with right now because we are
[01:48:56] entering the fifth winter of the Ukraine
[01:48:59] war. As we enter the fifth winter,
[01:49:03] America is now telling Putin, "Look, if you
[01:49:05] end the war, if you let me end it, I'll
[01:49:09] make some commercial
[01:49:12] concessions to you." Of course, while making these commercial
[01:49:16] concessions, I will use the companies
[01:49:18] of my son, my son-in-law, or Steve's wife,
[01:49:22] or his cousin. Therefore, it's as
[01:49:26] if there's a world limited company, and
[01:49:29] we've put Trump at its head as CEO,
[01:49:33] and everyone in the C-suite, like the
[01:49:37] chief financial... All of them are from
[01:49:40] Trump and his family, or leaders he accepts
[01:49:43] as friends whom he loves. Then he removes
[01:49:47] them from office, what kind of movie
[01:49:50] was this he was making? Was it a
[01:49:54] company? I mean, Trump is not a movie,
[01:49:57] he's a reality show, yes, an apprentice.
[01:50:01] An apprentice, meaning Trump is a world
[01:50:04] CEO there. You explained it very well,
[01:50:08] that's why I liked it. He brings a leader
[01:50:11] to an important position there, then sends them
[01:50:15] away and so on. Then he sends them
[01:50:18] away, or of course, his real relatives.
[01:50:21] After taking Shavezi, he initially praised
[01:50:25] the lady he brought in, and then he
[01:50:28] didn't do anything.
[01:55:39] We support those politicians. Well,
[01:55:42] thank you very much, you've convinced me,
[01:55:46] dear viewers, we've come to the end
[01:55:49] of today's "Limitless". Soon, Sinem Fıstıkoğlu
[01:55:53] will bring you both Turkish and world news
[01:55:56] in the main news bulletin, including
[01:55:59] new developments that you haven't heard
[01:56:02] in Turkey for two
[01:56:05] hours. See you next week on
[01:56:08] "Limitless". Goodbye. "We eat the most
[01:56:12] expensive food, we use the most expensive
[01:56:15] phones, and we have to work a
[01:56:19] lifetime to buy a house or a car. We asked
[01:56:23] the people, why is everything the
[01:56:26] most expensive for us, from food
[01:56:29] to phones, from houses to cars?
[01:56:32] The reason is this: there is no
[01:56:36] production economy. All the investments
[01:56:39] made so far have been for consumption,
[01:56:43] not for production. They didn't open
[01:56:46] factories, they closed factories. Now,
[01:56:49] you can't prevent expensiveness without
[01:56:52] production. You're selling the bridge, you're
[01:56:56] increasing the price of diesel. For
[01:57:00] example, eggplants, peppers, tomatoes produced
[01:57:04] in Antalya are transported to Istanbul
[01:57:07] by trucks. In between, there are
[01:57:11] wholesalers who take their commission.
[01:57:15] Therefore, expensiveness also comes from
[01:57:18] there. As long as this economic
[01:57:22] system continues to operate like
[01:57:25] this, it's impossible for them to fix
[01:57:28] the economy. Now, there is expensiveness,
[01:57:31] of course. It's true that foreign
[01:57:35] capital and foreign brands have become
[01:57:38] very important in daily use, but
[01:57:42] maybe if we, as a country,
[01:57:46] protect our own values, if we
[01:57:49] produce our own phones and cars
[01:57:53] and use them, maybe we can overcome
[01:57:56] all of this. We haven't figured
[01:58:00] that out yet. Inflation is really
[01:58:04] rising a lot. Wages are very
[01:58:07] low. Childcare, then rent prices,
[01:58:10] I don't know, it's very complicated,
[01:58:13] we can't get out of it. The situation
[01:58:17] is not very good. I have nothing
[01:58:20] to say about the government, because
[01:58:23] whatever we say is useless. Honestly,
[01:58:27] it's because the country is not
[01:58:30] well managed. Right now, our country
[01:58:34] can really support
[01:58:35] not just 85 million
[01:58:40] people, but in my opinion, maybe
[01:58:44] 180 million people.
[01:58:45] But why is it
[01:58:54] not managed? Because the managers
[01:58:58] are not good, they are putting
[01:59:00] this expensiveness on
[01:59:11] the people. It's really very difficult,
[01:59:15] it shouldn't be like this. We
[01:59:35] have children, what about us? Some
[01:59:39] go to school, we need money.
[01:59:41] We'll buy books and pens, how
[01:59:44] will we buy them without money?
[01:59:48] With my retirement pension, I barely
[01:59:51] pay rent. Besides that, how will
[01:59:55] I make ends meet with water,
[01:59:58] electricity, food, and drinks?
[02:00:24] Nothing will happen unless the AKP
[02:00:26] leaves. The AKP has to go.
[02:00:29] They desperately need to leave,
[02:00:32] because there's no money, they don't
[02:00:35] have any, and they've ruined the
[02:00:38] nation. It's a sin, a sin against
[02:00:41] these people. I've never seen
[02:00:44] anything like this, not during Debil's
[02:00:47] time, nor during Özal's time.
[02:00:50] Ecevit, well, they already took
[02:00:53] him away, nobody wanted Ecevit.
[02:00:57] Why? Because lives...