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20260920 223000 UTC
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[00:00:12] was re-established. Files were opened and
[00:00:15] on some files, "liquidate" was written
[00:00:19] in red pencil. And we ask why the Sąjūdis became
[00:00:23] a powerful movement in a short time. This was the first
[00:00:26] spark, because the question was always, who should be the first?
[00:03:40] when you are watching the premiere of this history detective show,
[00:03:44] in 1989,
[00:03:47] the Lithuanian Riflemen's Union was re-established. Therefore, we
[00:03:51] decided to learn more about this
[00:03:53] story.
[00:04:03] Lithuanian Riflemen today have become a popular
[00:04:06] organization. Look how strong the Riflemen's
[00:04:09] Union is now. We have already exceeded 20,000
[00:04:13] members. However, this was not
[00:04:15] always the case. The Soviets had destroyed the Riflemen's
[00:04:19] Union and it needed to be re-established. This was certainly not
[00:04:22] a simple task, as one might think now. Files were
[00:04:26] opened and on some
[00:04:29] files, "liquidate" was written in red pencil
[00:04:31] and did you know that
[00:04:35] the first riflemen scared Kelmė communists, they
[00:04:38] were very surprised,
[00:04:41] they almost called the police,
[00:04:44] and they always felt
[00:04:48] a breathing down their necks, and
[00:04:51] as we walked in the procession, we saw flashes of
[00:04:54] cameras and flashes,
[00:04:57] however, let's start from the beginning. The Riflemen's Union
[00:05:01] was established during the interwar period, its founder was Vladas
[00:05:04] Putvinskis, and it was re-established
[00:05:07] in
[00:05:10] 1989 on September 20th. And
[00:05:14] about that re-establishment, Stasys Ignatavičius, a witness
[00:05:17] to those events, will
[00:05:19] tell us.
[00:05:23] In 1988, the Sąjūdis began
[00:05:27] and massive rallies where order needed
[00:05:30] to be maintained. That's how men with green
[00:05:34] armbands appeared. The beginning was very beautiful.
[00:05:37] In
[00:05:39] 1988, the Sąjūdis, everyone is rushing here. Those
[00:05:43] initiative groups appeared and
[00:05:47] there were perhaps even 12 of those security detachments in Kaunas,
[00:05:51] everything was fine, everything was beautiful, discipline, order, but
[00:05:54] gradually that discipline
[00:05:58] deteriorated, and we saw, when here in
[00:06:01] Kaunas at the beginning of 1989,
[00:06:05] Caritas was meeting, the re-establishment of Caritas, that
[00:06:08] re-establishment meeting, that we invite people.
[00:06:12] People, if there are 20 people in a group, three, four, five
[00:06:16] come, so that discipline deteriorated and
[00:06:19] on May 12th, such a
[00:06:23] meeting was called how to regulate
[00:06:26] that discipline, that order, so that there wouldn't be such
[00:06:30] a, when you expect 20, but only
[00:06:34] 5, 6 security detachments come, because
[00:06:37] the responsibility was great, it was necessary
[00:06:40] to protect the Sąjūdis's events and escort some
[00:06:44] responsible persons and everything, well, and
[00:06:48] on May 12th, the commander of the Kaunas security
[00:06:51] detachments, Romas Zikus, proposed
[00:06:54] such an idea, that perhaps in the future
[00:06:58] it would be necessary to re-establish the Riflemen's Union
[00:07:01] on the basis of the detachments, on the basis of the green-armband security detachments,
[00:07:04] that idea immediately struck me
[00:07:07] like a pin, because
[00:07:11] my grandfather was a Rifleman and was one
[00:07:14] of the leaders of the railwaymen's rifle
[00:07:18] detachment, however, let's remember what the
[00:07:21] situation was in
[00:07:24] 1989. The Sąjūdis was
[00:07:28] strong, but Lithuania was still
[00:07:31] officially part of the Soviet Union, Soviet
[00:07:34] laws were in effect, and the Soviet
[00:07:38] army was in Lithuania.
[00:07:41] Therefore, not everyone in the Sąjūdis approved of the idea of re-establishing the Riflemen's Union.
[00:07:44] The Lithuanian Riflemen's Union
[00:07:47] was an organization during the interwar period, take a look at the Soviet encyclopedia
[00:07:50] and you will see that it is a bourgeois
[00:07:54] organization, an organization of Smetonists
[00:07:58] and it is liquidated, by law we
[00:08:01] did not have the right to even think about
[00:08:05] re-establishing the Riflemen's Union according to Soviet
[00:08:08] Union laws, it was banned
[00:08:12] and there was that "don't poke the bear"
[00:08:15] because we are still in the Soviet
[00:08:18] Union's legal framework, so that's how it
[00:08:22] is, and, as they say, not to give
[00:08:25] any signal to Moscow. Such
[00:08:29] was the caution at that time. These arguments affected some,
[00:08:33] but certainly did not cool everyone's enthusiasm.
[00:08:37] I saw that besides me there were three
[00:08:40] other leaders for the re-establishment, so after
[00:08:44] that meeting I invited them, I said,
[00:08:46] guys, why
[00:08:50] postpone it, if we can form
[00:08:53] that initiative group and start re-establishing
[00:08:57] the Riflemen's Union. Having gathered like-minded people, things
[00:09:00] started moving.
[00:09:02] On July 8,
[00:09:05] 1989, the temporary
[00:09:08] council of the Riflemen's Union's re-establishment initiative
[00:09:12] group decided that it was necessary to fully legalize
[00:09:16] the re-establishment of the Riflemen's Union and announce the re-establishment of the Riflemen's Union, so it was
[00:09:19] decided
[00:09:23] to organize the first oath-taking at Vladas Putvinskis's
[00:09:26] grave, in Kelmė cemetery. And
[00:09:30] here, it is necessary to remember again that Vladas
[00:09:33] Putvinskis was the founder of the Riflemen's Union and
[00:09:37] a very respected man in interwar Lithuania.
[00:09:41] When he died
[00:09:43] in 1919, his funeral was
[00:09:47] filmed and a film about it has survived
[00:09:50] to this day. Putvinskis was buried
[00:09:53] in Kelmė cemetery.
[00:09:55] Therefore, this place was chosen as the site
[00:09:58] for the re-establishment of the Riflemen's
[00:10:01] Union. We had decided that
[00:10:05] this oath-taking would take place on September
[00:10:08] 20th.
[00:10:10] Because it coincides with one of the founders
[00:10:13] of the Riflemen's Union, the birthday of its founder, Matas Šalčius,
[00:10:17] and others, and
[00:10:21] we decided to organize the oath-taking on that day.
[00:10:25] We prepared quite meticulously, because
[00:10:28] we needed to coordinate with the local
[00:10:31] priest for the mass, we needed to find
[00:10:35] living Kelmė interwar
[00:10:37] riflemen, coordinate
[00:10:41] with the surrounding old
[00:10:44] riflemen, so we prepared
[00:10:48] and behold, September
[00:10:49] 20th,
[00:10:52] 1989, dawned.
[00:10:55] In Kelmė, on September 20th, that
[00:10:58] oath ceremony began with holy
[00:11:02] mass in the local
[00:11:05] church, then a procession to Putvinskis's
[00:11:09] grave and the taking
[00:11:12] of the oath, and the oath was administered by interwar
[00:11:15] riflemen, Lukaševičius, who is from
[00:11:19] Kelmė, Kavaliauskas also from Kelmė,
[00:11:23] and one of our initiative
[00:11:25] group members, Juozas Armonaitis, a partisan,
[00:11:28] they administered our oath,
[00:11:31] 18 of us took the oath and we declared that
[00:11:35] this is the date of the re-establishment
[00:11:38] of the Riflemen's Union. Of course, the KGB
[00:11:41] knew about this action and recorded everything.
[00:11:45] They followed us, black
[00:11:47] cars, of course, it was clear
[00:11:50] who was following, because as we walked
[00:11:54] in the procession, we saw flashes of cameras,
[00:11:58] flashes, so we already ended up in
[00:12:01] those archives,
[00:12:03] however, times were different and such surveillance did not scare
[00:12:07] men determined
[00:12:09] to serve their homeland, on the contrary, they
[00:12:12] scared the then communist authorities
[00:12:16] of Kelmė, and we organized such
[00:12:20] a procession, from Putvinskis's grave
[00:12:23] to the former Riflemen's Union house named
[00:12:26] Vladas Putvinskis, at that time it was the Kelmė
[00:12:30] Executive Committee, we
[00:12:32] entered our former
[00:12:35] home, demanded that they
[00:12:38] vacate it, because we re-established the Riflemen's Union
[00:12:42] and and
[00:12:45] politely asked them to leave
[00:12:49] that building, they were very
[00:12:51] surprised, they almost...
[00:12:55] "called the police, and
[00:12:58] we scared the cleaner, when such a group, you know, comes in with
[00:13:02] flags, she saw that, went down the stairs,
[00:13:05] her buckets spilled, and
[00:13:09] she started shouting "militia, militia!"
[00:13:12] So, from the oath of 18 men
[00:13:15] at Vladas Putvinskis's grave, the history
[00:13:19] of the re-establishment of the Riflemen's Union began,
[00:13:22] well, you know, we announced the oath
[00:13:25] in the press, in the deportee's newspaper
[00:13:28] and in the Sąjūdis newspapers,
[00:13:31] we announced it, well, of course, some refused to publish
[00:13:34] our articles and photos, but some, when
[00:13:37] we announced it, we gave our addresses,
[00:13:41] how to contact us, if you want to join the Riflemen's
[00:13:44] Union, and it poured in, it poured in,
[00:13:47] and by December, in
[00:13:50] 1989, from September
[00:13:54] 20th to December, we already
[00:13:57] had the re-establishment ceremonies
[00:14:01] for the Riflemen's Union units in Gargždai,
[00:14:05] in Skriaudžiai, in Panevėžys, we would already go to re-establish
[00:14:08] units and immediately
[00:14:10] had our own flag,
[00:14:13] and here is a very interesting detail that perfectly reveals
[00:14:16] the situation of that time, everyone understood
[00:14:20] that it was not possible to openly create
[00:14:23] a military organization, not even military symbols
[00:14:27] could be used, this was reflected in the first
[00:14:31] riflemen's flag,
[00:14:35] the most important thing is that the first flag, when we
[00:14:37] sewed it,
[00:14:39] the true flag is a
[00:14:42] daudutis with a rifle,
[00:14:46] we did not put a rifle on the first flag,
[00:14:50] we put two daudelės through
[00:14:54] our symbolic crisis,
[00:14:57] that we are moving away from militarism a little,
[00:15:00] because it was 1989, you know, if we came with such a flag somewhere,
[00:15:04] it would
[00:15:08] not be good.
[00:15:10] In
[00:15:13] 1989, it was not yet an official organization.
[00:15:16] The Soviet KGB monitored the activists'
[00:15:19] actions. When we had no place to gather in
[00:15:23] 1989. Algirdas Kaušpėdas
[00:15:26] lent us a hand, he was the director
[00:15:30] of the Architects' House on Vilniaus Street here in
[00:15:34] Kaunas, and Romas Zikus
[00:15:37] got along well with him and said you can come to my place upstairs
[00:15:41] in the Architects' House, it's a three-story building, on the third floor there
[00:15:45] was such a small hall, gather here, he said, and
[00:15:49] discuss your Riflemen's affairs, and there was
[00:15:52] one evening like that, we were already gathering because we used to gather
[00:15:56] in the evening, this was in November,
[00:15:59] Algirdas Kaušpėdas
[00:16:02] stands there,
[00:16:04] he says, "guys,
[00:16:08] run, because he says in the inner courtyard
[00:16:12] those goats are standing without numbers, well, of course,
[00:16:15] so you know,
[00:16:19] we left a couple of our people, Leonavičius
[00:16:23] Ausonis, we left him to inform others
[00:16:26] not to enter
[00:16:28] that building, well, and
[00:16:32] as they say, he saved us, maybe they had come to arrest
[00:16:36] our group."
[00:16:38] Thus, the ice was broken, and when the work was done,
[00:16:42] the Riflemen's Union was re-established, and relations with
[00:16:45] the Sąjūdis improved. It was desired to restore the monument
[00:16:49] to those who died for Lithuanian freedom, well, as
[00:16:52] there is the tomb of the Unknown Soldier, and
[00:16:55] that pyramid-shaped
[00:16:57] monument, they asked us, the Sąjūdis already appealed to
[00:17:01] the riflemen, because stones were being collected from
[00:17:05] the battlefields of the independence
[00:17:08] struggles and the Sąjūdis already asked us to
[00:17:11] join that action and go with
[00:17:15] the Sąjūdis and representatives of other organizations
[00:17:18] to collect stones, and we brought them. And further,
[00:17:22] as the events unfolded, you know very well.
[00:17:25] 1990 arrived, the re-establishment council
[00:17:29] was elected, where the Sąjūdis-delegated people
[00:17:32] had an absolute majority, and independence was
[00:17:35] declared. Soviet laws
[00:17:39] formally ceased to be valid in Lithuania.
[00:17:42] On March 23rd, 1990, on March 23rd,
[00:17:46] by Council of Ministers Resolution Number
[00:17:50] 78, 78, such a small number. On March
[00:17:54] 23rd, the Riflemen's Union's statutes were
[00:17:58] registered with the Council of Ministers. And we already
[00:18:01] became an official organization.
[00:18:03] The Riflemen's Union attracted
[00:18:06] people who cared about the future of Lithuania,
[00:18:09] they would later form the basis of the Lithuanian army's
[00:18:13] border guards, we were already entering
[00:18:17] 1991, when the January
[00:18:19] events began, we were already a very strong
[00:18:23] organization, so everything started with us,
[00:18:26] and the army's formation started with the riflemen, because
[00:18:29] the first volunteers, the training
[00:18:33] unit of General Jozersky
[00:18:35] and other structures were created only
[00:18:39] on the basis of the riflemen, border guards, border,
[00:18:42] everything on our shoulders, our
[00:18:45] first people were the best to serve in
[00:18:49] those structures, and
[00:18:53] in
[00:18:55] 1991, the fateful January
[00:18:58] 13th was approaching, of course, the riflemen were
[00:19:02] those who came to defend our
[00:19:04] parliament,
[00:19:07] we received a request from the Ministry
[00:19:09] of National Defense, after what
[00:19:13] happened here during the attack,
[00:19:15] we received Butkevičius's request that
[00:19:19] the riflemen should
[00:19:22] stay near the palace, and
[00:19:26] then, when we came to seemingly stand guard near the palace, it turned out that we already
[00:19:30] had to be inside, and we started from there, by the
[00:19:33] 9th, we were already inside and...
[00:19:37] On the 11th, all who gathered,
[00:19:40] not only Kaunas residents, there were also Marijampolė residents, and
[00:19:44] Panevėžys residents, and Vilnius residents, we took the oath,
[00:19:47] all defenders,
[00:19:51] so it was our second oath, because we took the first
[00:19:54] one at the grave, and then the soldier's
[00:19:57] oath.
[00:20:00] January 13th did not pass without human casualties,
[00:20:03] people who loved freedom and who
[00:20:06] sacrificed what they held dearest, their
[00:20:10] lives. An oath is not empty
[00:20:13] words, an oath is
[00:20:15] a commitment that must be kept.
[00:20:19] In the Supreme Council, we were entrusted
[00:20:22] with guarding together
[00:20:26] with
[00:20:27] officer
[00:20:30] courses, students
[00:20:33] were entrusted with the second palace to the riflemen and
[00:20:38] to the officer course students, led by Colonel
[00:20:42] Lisbaras, and we, as they say,
[00:20:45] fulfilled our duty, I myself
[00:20:48] had to be there from January 8th
[00:20:51] to February 15th without leaving, and the
[00:20:54] leadership of the Riflemen's Union also stayed,
[00:20:58] and two of our members died near the tower,
[00:21:02] the riflemen Gerbutavičius and Šimulionis,
[00:21:06] they were our young riflemen, 17-year-olds,
[00:21:09] because the palace
[00:21:11] had
[00:21:13] an excess of defenders,
[00:21:16] and some other
[00:21:20] objects still needed to be guarded, so they were
[00:21:23] the Iron Wolf's Riflemen, and they
[00:21:26] were at the tower at that time
[00:21:29] and
[00:21:30] did not die,
[00:21:33] so we truly fulfilled our duty.
[00:21:36] And that duty
[00:21:41] posed a danger, now we truly
[00:21:44] know that the KGB was preparing plans to liquidate
[00:21:48] the Lithuanian state. The re-established Riflemen's
[00:21:51] Union was one of the most important
[00:21:54] targets.
[00:21:56] In Arvydas Nušauskas's
[00:21:58] book,
[00:22:01] "Top Secret KGB," there are
[00:22:04] documents. When the Moscow
[00:22:08] unit in Lithuania,
[00:22:12] the KGB, received instructions that first it was necessary
[00:22:16] to destroy
[00:22:19] the Ministry of National Defense, the Ministry
[00:22:21] of National Defense, the State Security
[00:22:25] Department, and in third place was the Riflemen's Union,
[00:22:29] which means that if the putsch had won, then we
[00:22:32] would have all been destroyed,
[00:22:35] and we have some copies of our
[00:22:38] files,
[00:22:41] also former commander Jankus, and some
[00:22:44] active riflemen of ours, files
[00:22:48] were opened for them. And on some files, "liquidate" was written
[00:22:52] in red pencil, do you understand?
[00:22:56] The re-establishment
[00:23:01] of the Riflemen's Union required
[00:23:04] both courage and sacrifice, it is very
[00:23:07] important that today's riflemen do not lack
[00:23:11] either courage
[00:23:12] or sacrifice.
[00:23:23] After the break, you will see an interview with sociologist Ainė
[00:23:26] Ramūnaitė about the Sąjūdis phenomenon. This was the first
[00:23:29] flash, because the question was always, who should be the first, or
[00:23:33] not, who dares to do something.
[00:23:45] Without exaggeration, it can be said that our current state was born
[00:23:49] from the Sąjūdis. Therefore, it is especially important
[00:23:52] to understand how that wonderful
[00:23:55] popular movement that we
[00:23:59] called Sąjūdis came about. We talk about this with
[00:24:02] sociologist Ainė
[00:24:04] Ramūnaitė.
[00:24:11] Thank you for agreeing to participate in the history detective
[00:24:15] show, and we will talk about
[00:24:18] a truly very important period that you also researched, namely
[00:24:22] the Sąjūdis, and you published a book
[00:24:26] 15 years ago, as it turns out now, but it is still
[00:24:29] relevant, it seems, so it is called
[00:24:33] "In Search of the Origins of the Sąjūdis" about that network
[00:24:36] that fed the Sąjūdis, but still, even after reading your book,
[00:24:40] I have such a question that many people also ask,
[00:24:44] how did it happen that
[00:24:48] the Sąjūdis became
[00:24:51] a huge force in just a few months
[00:24:54] in the summer of 1988, because in
[00:24:58] May 1988,
[00:25:01] no one was talking about anything, but
[00:25:04] in August, 100,000
[00:25:07] people were in Vingis Park,
[00:25:11] in October, the whole of Lithuania was talking about it,
[00:25:15] how did that great force
[00:25:17] emerge so quickly?
[00:25:20] Indeed, I think now, one could
[00:25:23] write a second volume and a continuation of this book, because
[00:25:27] in reality, that book was dedicated
[00:25:30] more to the very origins, about how it even
[00:25:33] appeared, how it could have appeared, it seems in such a seemingly
[00:25:37] passive society, an adaptive
[00:25:40] society, how could the Sąjūdis have been born
[00:25:43] at all, but this question that you
[00:25:46] raise, what happened after that, from that, let's say, birth?
[00:25:50] In just a few months, how did it become such a great force, so I now, frankly
[00:25:53] speaking, have answers for myself, but they are not all, not all
[00:25:57] written down and perhaps a new book should be written
[00:26:00] about it, but give us a hint.
[00:26:03] I can, I can roughly reveal the very
[00:26:07] idea. In reality, two things probably worked. One
[00:26:10] thing is that in society there was
[00:26:14] such a secret
[00:26:16] dissatisfaction, there was enough, it was just
[00:26:20] not publicized, and people themselves
[00:26:24] did not know that around them there were other people who also
[00:26:27] disliked that system, because you wouldn't publicly talk about such
[00:26:31] things, so you would only talk to very close friends or
[00:26:34] very close like-minded family members, but for example, with
[00:26:38] colleagues or with someone else, they wouldn't talk about such topics, because
[00:26:41] well, everyone knew that there was definitely
[00:26:45] some KGB officer, right, in every organization or
[00:26:48] institution, and you would be reported
[00:26:51] quickly, but on the other hand, there were
[00:26:55] people who participated in such
[00:26:58] semi-secret, semi- open network.
[00:27:03] I don't mean social networks now,
[00:27:06] but various gatherings, there were already many
[00:27:10] such gatherings at that time, there were completely open ones, like
[00:27:14] for example, the philosophers' club, right, and already from
[00:27:17] 1987, there was
[00:27:19] a bubbling up, especially in Vilnius, but also in Kaunas
[00:27:23] and other places, people say
[00:27:26] that something was brewing, in what sense was it brewing
[00:27:29] here, it's because many things were happening. the highest.
[00:27:33] such discussions, all kinds of clubs
[00:27:36] were established and they were established from
[00:27:39] below, from above, because of course there were many
[00:27:42] organizations from above, right, and and the Komsomol, and the party, and
[00:27:46] trade unions, and all sorts of amateur collectives, but there were
[00:27:50] also those that were created from below somehow, or
[00:27:53] under the guise of some legal organization, then
[00:27:56] the Culture Foundation appeared when it was established thanks to Česlovas
[00:27:59] Kudaba, already through that Culture Foundation. it was possible
[00:28:03] to register some gatherings, because otherwise you wouldn't register them there,
[00:28:07] you wouldn't say, I want to establish organizations here,
[00:28:11] so it was through the Komsomol youth, sometimes there were all sorts of
[00:28:14] festivals, and rock marches were already taking place
[00:28:17] at that time, all kinds of such
[00:28:19] things were happening, and what we
[00:28:23] understood while writing this book,
[00:28:26] was that network of all sorts of
[00:28:29] gatherings, it was already quite large.
[00:28:33] and in those gatherings, in some places, people were already talking
[00:28:37] much more openly and they clearly felt who
[00:28:41] did not sympathize with that system, so
[00:28:44] this was the first spark, because it's always a question of who should be
[00:28:48] the first, right, who dares to do something, because
[00:28:51] then, when, let's say, such a
[00:28:55] snowball effect, as they say, which we saw,
[00:28:58] the Sąjūdis was formed and then that idea
[00:29:01] started to develop very quickly, develop and it infected people, because
[00:29:05] people started to see that, oh, it turns out there are many
[00:29:08] others around, just like me, who don't really like
[00:29:12] that system, but who had to be those very first ones, so here we
[00:29:16] analyze that the first ones were usually precisely those who
[00:29:20] were in those, as we termed them, spontaneous civil society
[00:29:23] networks, what does spontaneous civil society mean, it means those created from
[00:29:26] above, but born from below and they
[00:29:30] would already speak much more freely and they already understood that there were many
[00:29:33] like-minded people who didn't like that system, so here,
[00:29:36] look, you also emphasized that, can
[00:29:40] it then be said that it was a dormant civil society, because
[00:29:44] today, right, those organizations
[00:29:47] formed from below networks, without any
[00:29:50] doubt any
[00:29:53] sociologist would call them manifestations of civil society,
[00:29:56] but in the Soviet era it was a dormant
[00:29:59] civil society, we actually.
[00:30:02] even had the idea to call those gatherings civil society, but that would sound
[00:30:06] very strange, that under the conditions of a totalitarian
[00:30:09] regime, civil
[00:30:12] society, although let's look at, for example, the Poles, the Polish
[00:30:16] Solidarity movement's theorists,
[00:30:19] philosophers, they called similar things, they precisely used the term
[00:30:23] civil society, and that's why that idea was quite attractive to us,
[00:30:27] but here we can apply modern authors as well, like
[00:30:31] Robert Putnam, for example. who talks there, let's say, about completely different
[00:30:35] things, about societies in democratic countries and says that, for example,
[00:30:38] something like even some choir or, as they say, a bird
[00:30:42] watching club, which is not a political thing, it can
[00:30:45] become political, because it creates social capital,
[00:30:49] trust among those people trust, and strong trust
[00:30:52] strengthens civil society and well, that and
[00:30:56] in the Soviet era, right, there was that trust, then I would ask them.