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20261105 013000 UTC
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[00:00:00] from the investigator, right? The investigator is different because he is theoretically
[00:00:04] biased towards that in the sense
[00:00:07] that he is the one who then drafts the indictment articles.
[00:00:11] How can he indict and then not be sure about the evidence?
[00:00:15] Because if the perspective is from the investigator, we cannot
[00:00:18] trust it. If the
[00:00:21] Well, the victim here is the one who perspective is from the public prosecutor, because
[00:00:22] is presented, who in this case, we are in opposition,
[00:00:24] is awaited by the public, who we are on opposite sides. Therefore, there must be an independent third party
[00:00:27] to test that diploma. Okay. Okay.
[00:00:31] Later,
[00:00:33] it will show what is
[00:00:35] something that is doubted because the item has not been presented
[00:00:38] all this time. What will happen later,
[00:00:42] will your client really be ready
[00:00:45] to undergo his legal process? Why are you constantly directing it there?
[00:00:49] I'm confused.
[00:00:52] This you... oh
[00:00:55] no,
[00:00:56] the diploma that is no. First, you
[00:01:00] said, right, whether you are ready to be punished, or I have already
[00:01:04] said that our client is innocent. Our client
[00:01:08] has no single article that can be applied to
[00:01:11] them because they work, they research based on
[00:01:14] public interest. Second, they did not slander
[00:01:18] because whether the diploma is original or not, until now, it's still
[00:01:21] questionable. They cannot be charged under the ITE Law
[00:01:24] because there is no such thing as physical document testing.
[00:01:28] pengujian dokumen fis.
[00:01:36] forensic science? It is a science
[00:02:00] The proof in the trial is one moment,
[00:02:03] right? One eh, screen only from the entire
[00:02:06] trial process. Of course, we will see the quality
[00:02:10] of the evidence, because if you tell a story, you can
[00:02:13] just tell ABC and so on and so forth,
[00:02:16] but later we will cross-check with other witnesses and
[00:02:20] other evidence or exhibits.
[00:02:23] two statements are From there, we will then confirm
[00:02:25] whether Mr. Joko's story is true or not. Of course,
[00:02:29] yes... our client, he has prepared a story
[00:02:33] about studying at Uge, about this and that and so on and so forth,
[00:02:36] even though we caught an oddity, for example, about the
[00:02:40] sequence of time between when he graduated from college,
[00:02:44] then the proof or statement then he went to Aceh, then he came back and gave birth
[00:02:47] to Gibran and so on. That itself doesn't match,
[00:02:50] the timing, even though it came from eh, Jokowi's own
[00:02:54] YouTube, right? Thank you very much for the information this morning.
[00:02:58] Well, there you go. Yes, Jason, regarding
[00:03:02] the statement from Roy Suryo's legal team and also Dr. Tiva, they
[00:03:05] said that Roy Suryo's side or camp
[00:03:09] still believes that the diploma
[00:03:12] or experience that Jokowi will later present
[00:03:16] is something that is not necessarily
[00:03:19] convincing, right? And
[00:03:22] at this moment, we hear
[00:03:26] that the 7th President of the Republic of Indonesia
[00:03:31] earlier, one important point also has arrived at the East Jakarta District Court. We are currently
[00:03:35] showing you
[00:03:39] what the situation is like. Well,
[00:03:41] on the screen, Jason, it's already visible
[00:03:45] that there's a crowd of Jokowi supporters from
[00:03:48] various groups, right? There are also
[00:03:52] from Projo, and they are already waiting in front of
[00:03:56] the gate or the main area of the District Court
[00:04:00] in East Jakarta. Besides that, we, the media crew, are still
[00:04:03] waiting to see if we can get
[00:04:07] a statement or ask Jokowi himself.
[00:04:11] Well, the situation is
[00:04:14] quite safe.
[00:04:16] amanan
[00:04:19] Mr. Jokowi,
[00:04:20] Mr. Jokowi, we
[00:04:23] are trying, we are trying to ask, Mr.
[00:04:27] Jokowi.
[00:05:01] Mr. Jokowi, how are the preparations for the diploma today, sir?
[00:05:05] All good,
[00:05:07] be? Will all good.
[00:05:12] Sir, a little bit, sir, may I go there, sir? Yes, they will listen later.
[00:05:16] They will listen later. Later, when they bring
[00:05:19] it down.
[00:05:29] All right, please.
[00:06:23] Still going up,
[00:06:23] bro.
[00:06:28] The phone was cut off. Viewers,
[00:06:31] we just witnessed the arrival of the 7th President
[00:06:35] of the Republic of Indonesia, Joko Widodo, who arrived at the East
[00:06:38] Jakarta District Court. According to
[00:06:41] the SIPP, or the schedule listed in
[00:06:45] the SIPP, the trial against the defendant Roh Suryo
[00:06:49] will start at 09:00 AM Western Indonesia Time.
[00:06:52] And later, the second session will be held at 2:00 PM Western Indonesia
[00:06:55] Time with defendant Dr. Tiva.
[00:06:59] And later, the 7th President of the Republic of Indonesia, Joko Widodo,
[00:07:02] will be a witness for two different trial agendas.
[00:07:06] Viewers, and if we look here, indeed,
[00:07:10] all supporters, both from both sides, both from
[00:07:14] Roy Suryo's camp and also from Joko
[00:07:17] Widodo's camp, have indeed gathered and crowded the area
[00:07:21] of the East Jakarta District Court. Viewers, therefore,
[00:07:24] security is indeed tightened, even with three rings already prepared,
[00:07:28] viewers, because today's agenda is that the 7th President
[00:07:32] of the Republic of Indonesia, Joko Widodo, will give
[00:07:35] his statement as a witness in this trial,
[00:07:38] viewers. And the question is, indeed, later,
[00:07:42] will Joko Widodo bring his original diploma?
[00:07:45] Because according to circulating information, later, Jokowi
[00:07:49] will bring his original diploma and
[00:07:52] show it to the judge,
[00:07:55] viewers. And later, the
[00:07:58] trial proceedings will also be conducted openly,
[00:08:02] viewers. And if we look
[00:08:06] until now, indeed,
[00:08:09] from the statement also already delivered by Roy Suryo's camp,
[00:08:13] where earlier, Roy Suryo's legal counsel Refle Harun
[00:08:16] stated that this trial is expected
[00:08:20] to truly be a confirmation of all the polemics that
[00:08:24] have been rolling, viewers. Where his side itself earlier already
[00:08:27] stated that they prepared approximately 500
[00:08:31] questions, and it is hoped that this trial will not
[00:08:34] have time limitations so that then
[00:08:38] the proof can be carried out more completely and
[00:08:40] comprehensively. And
[00:08:44] conveyed by Roy Suryo's legal counsel Refle Harun
[00:08:47] stated that there is no single
[00:08:50] article that can be applied
[00:08:53] to his client, including articles on defamation
[00:08:56] and also slander related to the diploma of the 7th President
[00:08:59] of the Republic of Indonesia.
[00:09:16] And viewers, to discuss the presence of Joko Widodo
[00:09:19] as a witness in this trial, we will discuss it with
[00:09:23] criminal law expert Prof. Hipnu Nugroho via virtual connection.
[00:09:27] Good morning, Prof. Hipnu. Good
[00:09:30] morning, sir. Thank you for
[00:09:34] Hipnu, let's get straight to it. How important is the presence of Joko Widodo as
[00:09:38] a witness this time for him to be able to
[00:09:41] provide or then find proof in this trial?
[00:09:44] Yes, in the concept
[00:09:48] of law, the presence as a victim, as
[00:09:51] a complainant, is very,
[00:09:55] very important. Because in a trial,
[00:09:58] there are four indicators: one, the existence of a defense,
[00:10:02] which is currently ongoing; then, a public hearing
[00:10:05] to listen; then, eh, proof;
[00:10:08] and finally, independence, the independence
[00:10:12] of a trial. Well, as a public hearing
[00:10:15] for the victim, it is where the victim who
[00:10:19] feels, who makes the report,
[00:10:22] who makes the complaint, must
[00:10:25] be present to provide an explanation
[00:10:28] to what extent regarding the feelings, regarding
[00:10:32] the condition of the victim, because in a legal context, there are four
[00:10:35] pillars, sir. One, there is the act,
[00:10:39] there is the perpetrator, there is the criminal sanction,
[00:10:43] and there is the victim.
[00:10:49] is awaited by the court to at least
[00:10:52] clarify, to at least give later
[00:10:55] with the statements of the defendant, to confront with other
[00:10:59] witnesses. Thus, as the concept of justice now
[00:11:02] is a concept of justice that seeks material truth,
[00:11:06] the real truth about what the object
[00:11:10] that is currently being examined is, sir. Okay, Prof. Hipnu,
[00:11:13] is Joko Widodo's position currently as the complainant or, as
[00:11:17] you said earlier, as the victim? This means that when he gives a statement,
[00:11:21] its weight becomes heavier, right,
[00:11:24] for... to then be able to fight or confront what
[00:11:28] has been conveyed by the defendant's side all
[00:11:31] this time? Yes, if we look at a concept
[00:11:35] of proof in a new paradigm
[00:11:38] of evidence, there is no weight, but
[00:11:42] it has the same qualification of evidence, it has the same
[00:11:45] evidence as other witnesses,
[00:11:48] only because this is a form of complaint,
[00:11:52] as a form of certainty, as a form of classification, as
[00:11:56] a form of earnestness, because if we look at
[00:11:59] an old criminal procedure code, the victim who reports
[00:12:03] is actually the first one, the first one who must be examined,
[00:12:07] right? Because with the first examination, it's to ask whether to proceed
[00:12:11] or not, whether there are alternatives or not? This is what we
[00:12:14] see in the first criminal procedure code, but with the new criminal procedure code
[00:12:17] now, it's not like that, all evidence is handed over
[00:12:21] to the public prosecutor, that's if we look at article 160, therefore...
[00:12:25] That was in the proof yesterday, the question was why hadn't Mr. Jokowi attended? That's
[00:12:29] part of the prosecutor's strategy for when to present him, of course, with
[00:12:31] the permission of the head of the court. Therefore, with the panel of judges who asked
[00:12:35] when he would be presented
[00:12:39] by the legal counsel, he is presented today
[00:12:43] as a form of clarification, as a form of
[00:12:45] confrontation against what has been accused
[00:12:49] all this time, including the evidence presented
[00:12:52] by the counsel. Hmm. Prof. Ibnu, it is also said
[00:12:56] that later, Joko Widodo will show
[00:13:00] his diploma in front of the judge when there is indeed
[00:13:03] physical evidence of the diploma that has been brought.
[00:13:07] How do you analyze this? Will it then immediately
[00:13:11] break the accusations that have been circulating in
[00:13:15] the court?
[00:13:18] Yes, if it is a complaint
[00:13:21] regarding feelings, then the proof... is quite
[00:13:25] personal proof, personal proof regarding the feelings of
[00:13:29] the victim, but since the accusation is
[00:13:32] defamation and slander, slander
[00:13:35] is about whether a situation is true or not true about an
[00:13:39] item, then regarding the item, the diploma,
[00:13:42] it is necessary to show
[00:13:45] it. Well, that's the question. Well, it's necessary
[00:13:49] to show it, there will be a lot of commotion later, will there be
[00:13:52] a form of testing? Well, that depends
[00:13:55] on the judge, because in the current judicial concept,
[00:13:59] there is a paradigm shift, the judge is
[00:14:02] active, but provides equal opportunity,
[00:14:06] legally known as adversarial,
[00:14:08] adversarial in proving. Well, the question
[00:14:12] is, will the legal counsel request
[00:14:15] a test, and will the public
[00:14:18] prosecutor or the panel of judges agree? We will see. But at
[00:14:22] least, as a form of slander,
[00:14:25] an opportunity is given to prove the object that caused
[00:14:29] the slander. Well, this is where the excitement will be, sir.
[00:14:32] Will it be granted or not, will an opportunity be given
[00:14:36] or not? If it's about statements, I have no problem. Later,
[00:14:39] Mr. Jokowi will give a statement, it will be clarified, it will be refuted, sir,
[00:14:43] but when it comes to the diploma, is it enough
[00:14:46] to just show it, or does there have to be a
[00:14:49] test of the diploma? Because all this time, the counsel
[00:14:53] has stated that the diploma... is actually not the original diploma received
[00:14:57] at the time, but a photocopy in the court.
[00:15:00] Well, this is what will create a situation where the court will later
[00:15:04] find a middle ground, providing a facility, giving equal
[00:15:08] opportunity to prove the diploma.
[00:15:11] Yes, Prof. Hipnu, speaking of giving a statement,
[00:15:15] it's possible that later, if the legal team
[00:15:19] of the defendant wants to test what Jokowi
[00:15:22] has stated as a witness, it's possible. Questions related to
[00:15:26] his educational background, the process of issuing his diploma, and
[00:15:30] his academic documents. Are questions like
[00:15:34] these required to be delivered and explained in detail
[00:15:37] by Joko Widodo?
[00:15:41] Well, actually, if we look at it as a form of
[00:15:45] a prologue to obtaining a diploma, right?
[00:15:48] That's why later, the Panel
[00:15:51] of Judges also has to be skillful in seeing whether
[00:15:55] this is relevant or not, right? So, if
[00:15:59] it's indeed to convince, I think Mr. Jokowi must
[00:16:03] convince the public, convince the
[00:16:06] defendant about the chronology until his diploma
[00:16:09] and family are legitimate. Because no matter what, the victim
[00:16:13] who is now sleeping must prove that his diploma
[00:16:16] was obtained legitimately with the existing stages
[00:16:20] until the diploma was issued, right? It has to be like that. But
[00:16:23] the question is later how the legal counsel, because in a
[00:16:27] court's view, it's always contradictory. If the legal counsel
[00:16:31] thinks objectively about the law, but
[00:16:34] subjectively about their interests, but the public prosecutor is
[00:16:37] objectively representing the state, subjectively about the law, subjectively representing
[00:16:41] the state, objectively about the law, the judge is objectively about the law,
[00:16:45] objectively about the case. That's it. Later, the moderator as
[00:16:48] the panel will be there to see if what is explained
[00:16:52] is relevant, because what is being asked is about whether it's original or not
[00:16:55] regarding the slander earlier, right? That's it, sir.
[00:16:59] Prof. Ibnu, let's move on to another topic. So, for today's agenda,
[00:17:02] the 7th President of the Republic of Indonesia will be present in
[00:17:06] two trials. So, the trial for Roy Suryo and also
[00:17:09] the trial for Dr. Tiva. Is it possible for him to be a witness
[00:17:13] for two trials simultaneously at the same
[00:17:16] time? Well, if we look at
[00:17:19] the mechanism of trials, it is indeed
[00:17:23] rarely done, rarely done, rarely done
[00:17:26] because the indictments are different between
[00:17:30] Tifa and Mr. Roy Suryo, and the case numbers
[00:17:33] are different. But as a form of modern justice,
[00:17:38] and then as a form of quick
[00:17:41] principle, simple, low-cost,
[00:17:45] it is possible. So the key is later with the panel of judges.
[00:17:48] If the panel of judges states that the judges are the same, perhaps,
[00:17:52] it can be done. Oh, everything is the same, the prosecutor is the same,
[00:17:56] the legal counsel also has similarities, it can
[00:17:59] happen. This is a form of quick principle, because the object being dealt with is
[00:18:03] the same regarding the diploma, right? It's about feelings.
[00:18:07] Feelings related to slander, defamation.
[00:18:10] This is an alternative to various trials
[00:18:14] being combined into one as a statement as a form of quick
[00:18:17] and simple principle. Well, that's why later, at least,
[00:18:21] the panel will also ask the legal counsel if this can be combined. Well,
[00:18:25] that's the question. Oh, if the legal counsel says, "Oh, no, it must
[00:18:28] be one by one," I think this is quite difficult. Similarly, the public
[00:18:32] prosecutor, can they? If the public prosecutor is okay with the quick principle because it represents the same
[00:18:35] interest. But the legal counsel
[00:18:37] is the key. Can it be combined or not, one by one or
[00:18:41] not, right? That's what I think needs
[00:18:44] to be anticipated by the panel. If they say no, then inevitably,
[00:18:48] it has to be one by one because the case numbers are different, the subjects of the suspects are also
[00:18:52] different, right? But Mr. Jokowi's wish is
[00:18:55] one, which in a legal context is also a problem because as a quick,
[00:18:58] simple principle, he only provides a statement on the same object,
[00:19:01] but the subjects of each suspect, the defendants, are different,
[00:19:05] right, sir? Okay, later I will
[00:19:07] ask Prof. Hipnu again when Joko Widodo has given
[00:19:11] his statement in Roy Suryo's trial, because this is
[00:19:14] the first one. Now, can the statement that has been given
[00:19:17] be used again to become evidence in
[00:19:20] Dr. Tiva's trial? How will this mechanism work? We will
[00:19:24] discuss it again after the following break, viewers. Stay with us on Breaking News Metro
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[00:21:20] Moments before the arrival of the 7th President of the Republic of Indonesia, Joko Widodo,
[00:21:23] who is present as a witness in the trial of Roy Suryo and also
[00:21:27] Dr. Tiva today at the East Jakarta District Court, where
[00:21:31] Joko Widodo arrived around
[00:21:34] 8:45 AM Western Indonesia Time and was immediately escorted
[00:21:38] to enter the courtroom because,
[00:21:41] according to information, the trial will
[00:21:45] start at 09:00 AM Western Indonesia
[00:21:48] Time. Of course, security has also been in place
[00:21:52] since morning. There are thousands of supporters
[00:21:55] who have also crowded the court area, both
[00:21:59] supporters of Joko Widodo and supporters of
[00:22:03] Rohisuryo. And later, viewers,
[00:22:06] the agenda is that Joko Widodo will act as
[00:22:10] a witness and is expected to provide information
[00:22:13] related to the polemic of the fake diploma that
[00:22:16] has been directed at him all this time. We will
[00:22:20] return to discuss the presence of Joko
[00:22:23] Widodo as a witness in this trial. We rejoin
[00:22:27] Prof. Hipnu. Prof., let's continue the dialogue. My question
[00:22:31] earlier was, can the statements
[00:22:34] already given in Roy Suryo's trial be used again,
[00:22:38] can they be delivered again
[00:22:41] to Dr. Tiva's trial or the afternoon agenda, or
[00:22:44] does there have to be a different record or a different mechanism,
[00:22:48] Prof.?
[00:22:50] Yes, this is how it is, sir. If we look at a
[00:22:54] trial, there is one subject
[00:22:57] witness, there is one. Thus,
[00:23:00] if we look at it as a form of
[00:23:03] alternative trial with two indictments, there are two
[00:23:06] indictments, there are two case numbers, right?
[00:23:10] If we talk about ideal,
[00:23:13] given, because a statement
[00:23:15] evolves, it
[00:23:18] evolves regarding... the object that is being examined,
[00:23:22] it evolves regarding the process of obtaining
[00:23:25] the diploma, it evolves regarding the feelings that
[00:23:28] are possible for the complainant, namely Mr. Jokowi. This is something
[00:23:32] different, so it seems not common, right,
[00:23:36] if it's separate? But that's in the usual
[00:23:39] practice, but if, as I said earlier, there is an
[00:23:42] agreement, the key is whether the legal counsel
[00:23:46] and the suspect are willing for the statement, what has been...
[00:23:50] delivered in front of Mr. Tiva
[00:23:53] to be the same as Jokowi, to be the same as
[00:23:56] whether or vice versa. It depends, because as I said
[00:24:00] earlier, our justice system is
[00:24:03] adversarial,
[00:24:05] meaning the judge is active in providing equal
[00:24:08] opportunity. Well, the question is, later, will the public
[00:24:11] prosecutor and legal counsel accept that the statement that has been given
[00:24:15] will be delivered in another case number or vice
[00:24:18] versa? That will be the agreement
[00:24:22] later, and that's where I think the panel of judges will decide
[00:24:26] whether to include it or not, because in a concept, since
[00:24:29] the legal subjects are different, the case numbers are different, it also has to be different,
[00:24:33] even though the statement will be the same, but at least he will be present to give
[00:24:37] a statement about the same object, right, sir?
[00:24:40] Yes, Prof. Ibnu, now I will
[00:24:43] invite us to flash back again. If I read this again,
[00:24:47] previously, the National Police Criminal Investigation Department had already conducted
[00:24:51] forensic examination results that concluded that at that time,
[00:24:54] Jokowi's diploma was actually an original
[00:24:58] diploma. If this has been revealed, how strong is the position
[00:25:01] of the forensic laboratory examination results to then be presented
[00:25:05] in court?
[00:25:09] Yes, if we look at a document,
[00:25:12] we must think that a document is considered
[00:25:16] true unless proven otherwise. And
[00:25:20] that is all that we see in a document. Well, the question
[00:25:23] yesterday was the document results that
[00:25:27] had been carried out by the forensics department, it is valid
[00:25:30] and has strong legal force. The question
[00:25:34] now is, the opposing party is given the opportunity
[00:25:37] to state that the document is not valid. Thus,
[00:25:40] as a concept of balance,
[00:25:43] there must be something, it must be based
[00:25:46] on a judgment from the public prosecutor and a judgment from the legal
[00:25:50] counsel. That opportunity is given in a trial. Later, from
[00:25:53] that document, what will the result
[00:25:57] A or B be used? Later, the panel will
[00:26:01] judge, or will both turn out to be the same? But at
[00:26:04] least, the opportunity given to the legal counsel, as a representative,
[00:26:08] will surely take
[00:26:11] actions to provide a test.
[00:26:15] The question is whether that opportunity will be granted or not. If
[00:26:18] not, then it's over. But if it is, the case will be delayed
[00:26:22] again. This is what will cause a problem in the trial. But
[00:26:26] the question later will be, "Sir, this is not a
[00:26:29] question of testing documents, is it? This is a question
[00:26:33] of a case about defamation, about
[00:26:36] slander, why does it go to document testing?" Well, that's
[00:26:40] where the dialogue in a trial must be clear,
[00:26:43] there must be an agreement that this is enough to be done like that,
[00:26:46] or there is a mutual desire
[00:26:50] to prove it. That's what makes it interesting in this
[00:26:53] trial, sir, right? Okay, Prof. Hipnu, let's say
[00:26:57] Joko Widodo brings said to be
[00:27:01] the original diploma. But then Roy Suryo's side,
[00:27:04] if they have a counter-analysis, what is the legal mechanism
[00:27:08] to then test this in court,
[00:27:11] right? Yes, in the
[00:27:14] formal law of criminal procedure, that
[00:27:18] auxiliary science, forensic science, whether it is
[00:27:21] digital forensics, medical forensics, language
[00:27:25] forensic is to back up
[00:27:28] in a proof, so the law will not move
[00:27:32] without supporting sciences, auxiliary sciences,
[00:27:35] forensic science. What is
[00:27:39] used for the benefit of justice, in the context
[00:27:42] of digital forensics or its relation to forensic
[00:27:46] diplomas, judges, judges, public
[00:27:49] prosecutors, legal advisors do not understand
[00:27:52] forensics, that's where the judge will see that
[00:27:56] the statement given by the forensic expert, whether it is
[00:28:00] original or not with the statement? The
[00:28:03] question is free, it's because it's an expert statement, the judge assesses
[00:28:07] it freely, it can be used, it can't, that's it, man,
[00:28:10] unlike transactions, witnesses are binding, because it concerns what they
[00:28:14] see, hear, experience, forensics is not, now the question is
[00:28:18] judges are law graduates, what do they know about forensics, prosecutors are also law
[00:28:21] graduates, what do they know about forensics, legal advisors, legal advisors
[00:28:25] are also law graduates, well, that's what we see in a
[00:28:28] proof, the expert's statement has a free value, the judge can...
[00:28:32] use it or not, that's where the panel of judges can interpret oh
[00:28:36] I'll use this with reasons ABC oh I won't use this with
[00:28:39] reasons ABC that's roughly it Mr. hm okay Prof Hipnu
[00:28:43] later we will both see how
[00:28:47] delivered by Joko Widodo with what he said was
[00:28:50] his original diploma and how this will unfold we will still monitor it
[00:28:54] in the future thank you Prof Hipnugroho criminal law expert
[00:28:57] has joined us on this breaking news Metro TV
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[00:30:25] viewers, to monitor the current situation, we rejoin metro TV
[00:30:28] journalist Rona Marina, good morning, Rona, joining
[00:30:31] again, has the trial participants
[00:30:35] arrived and are there any signs the trial will
[00:30:37] begin?
[00:30:43] Yes, Jason, right now it's almost 9:00 AM
[00:30:47] or it will soon be 9:00 AM Western Indonesia Time,
[00:30:50] where the trial for the defendant Roy Suryo and also
[00:30:54] presenting the witness, former President of the Republic of Indonesia
[00:30:57] Jokowi and his aide Syarif Fitri.