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20261105 110000 UTC
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[00:00:00] always with the community according to our slogan, our slogan
[00:00:03] together, which is the police together with the community, and we
[00:00:07] assure you that this is all purely in the form of law
[00:00:11] enforcement, it has nothing to do
[00:00:14] with competition or
[00:00:17] anything, but this is purely for the good
[00:00:20] of the police institution that we love in order
[00:00:24] to provide service and protection to the people of the nation,
[00:00:27] viewers, the alleged wiretapping by three high-ranking police officers. It's not just about individual
[00:00:31] criminal acts, but also concerns national security, the integrity
[00:00:34] of law enforcement institutions, and even the safety of the head of state. We
[00:00:38] will discuss this with the former deputy chief of police during the 2013-2014 period,
[00:00:52] the general chairman of Gibranisti, Taufiq Bil Faqih. Mas Taufiq, how
[00:00:55] are you?
[00:00:59] Alhamdulillah, I'm fine. Thank you, Mas Iqbal, and there's also constitutional law expert
[00:01:02] Herdian Shah Hamzah. Bang Herdi, good
[00:01:13] has certainly been circulating, right? Clips from Mahfud's
[00:01:16] MD podcast, including those linking the alleged
[00:01:20] wiretapping case to certain interests, one of which is Pak Mahfud
[00:01:23] who said the wiretapping results flowed to Solo. I want
[00:01:27] to ask for your response as a volunteer. What do you think, Mas Taufiq?
[00:01:30] if the institution
[00:01:33] Uh, thank you, Pak Mahfud MD. I think he also needs
[00:01:36] to account for his statement. But what's clear is that the
[00:01:39] accusations or assumptions or whatever framing
[00:01:43] is then addressed to Solo, in this case, Pak Jokowi,
[00:01:47] we strongly reject it.
[00:01:50] ultimately it's Solo. Someone And we appreciate what the National Police and their
[00:01:52] ranks are doing. And we should all have
[00:01:55] the same understanding and perspective that this crime
[00:01:59] must then be thoroughly investigated and we should leave it
[00:02:02] to the police, right? Not then, uh, starting
[00:02:06] with accusations that we think are already too far. And
[00:02:09] what should not be forgotten is that
[00:02:12] again, I want to say that actually the conflict it's too cheap if wiretapping of the president,
[00:02:15] of the number one person in this republic who has
[00:02:19] the power to make policies and certain strategies, is then
[00:02:22] thrown to local political figures, whether it's
[00:02:26] say, maybe a former president or
[00:02:29] maybe a user in Indonesia. For me, this
[00:02:32] must also be something much bigger, because it's impossible that
[00:02:37] what is being done by the state, what is the state administration, because this if you just tap the president and then give it to
[00:02:39] figures who are actually hierarchically
[00:02:43] no longer active, especially with the type of leadership of Pak
[00:02:47] two types of Wayang Beber remain Jokowi during his presidency and even after his retirement,
[00:02:51] we believe and also we ensure that he is not the type of person who
[00:02:55] interferes, whether
[00:02:57] is, if it's reversed, if the it's with state institutions or even his current position, it's
[00:03:00] very naive if he then interferes with his former
[00:03:04] subordinates as the Chief of Police to then take actions that
[00:03:07] lead to treason, especially since
[00:03:10] Pak LSP apparently started the wiretapping
[00:03:14] incident in 2025, where Pak Jokowi is
[00:03:18] an element or public figure who even gave support not only to
[00:03:21] Probogibran but also urged
[00:03:24] his volunteers to come on, let's not only oversee this
[00:03:28] government but even if necessary this period, meaning that
[00:03:31] in 2025, Pak Jokowi, up until now, has remained
[00:03:35] consistent in providing moral and spiritual support
[00:03:38] to this government. So I think the address
[00:03:41] given by Pak Mahfud is excessive and should
[00:03:46] then it is realized what be accounted for, I think that's it. Moreover, now it's only the president, right?
[00:03:49] The wiretapping is also carried out against state officials, political figures, and also businessmen,
[00:03:54] Is it, as I said at Mas Taufiq. Now, has it ever happened that because volunteers often interact
[00:03:56] with Pak Jokowi, has it ever been said that he felt like a victim of wiretapping
[00:04:00] or perhaps he has felt wiretapped, Mas
[00:04:03] Taufiq?
[00:04:06] If Pak Jokowi, I think, is someone who has been wiretapped since he was a governor,
[00:04:10] even after he became governor and president,
[00:04:14] he admitted to being wiretapped. It's just that his expression
[00:04:17] is not the same as some other state leaders and
[00:04:21] also elite figures. I think he remains calm and even
[00:04:25] solo or Pak Jokowi, but someone higher jokes sometimes because he has no problems, he's not
[00:04:30] of power that is driven, afraid of being wiretapped, even once, because there's nothing he hides. So I
[00:04:33] think, uh, most recently we also communicated with Pak Jokowi, including
[00:04:37] today we are at the high court uh, district court in East
[00:04:41] Jakarta escorting him, and we just laugh
[00:04:44] at the information that is circulating as if it's addressed to Pak
[00:04:48] Jokowi. But the question is whether Pak Jokowi is also
[00:04:51] a target of LSP or also
[00:04:54] Matuapres. I think that is something we
[00:04:57] should wait for the police investigation for.
[00:05:00] Even though, indirectly, it has been conveyed by Pak Yusril
[00:05:04] that the names of Mas Gibran and Pak Jokowi are also, up until now,
[00:05:08] not like the others who have been mentioned. So for us, whatever
[00:05:12] it is, whether Pak Jokowi is an object of wiretapping or not,
[00:05:16] basically we still support what is currently
[00:05:19] being investigated by the police. I think that's it, bro. Okay,
[00:05:22] good. Moreover, we remember that in December 2013,
[00:05:26] there were allegedly three units of wiretapping devices in the governor's
[00:05:30] house, Pak Jokowi at that time. Now, Pak Ugro, uh, this
[00:05:33] is, if we look at
[00:05:36] the authority to tap, right? Meaning, if
[00:05:39] it's according to procedure, there are rules,
[00:05:43] there's supervision, there's monitoring, so this doesn't happen,
[00:05:46] even targeting the head of state. Now, in 2023, we
[00:05:50] heard at that time that Pak Jokowi, when he was still president,
[00:05:53] could get intelligence information, and that was also
[00:05:57] obtained comprehensively, from BIN, from police intelligence,
[00:06:00] from TNI intelligence, from BC, and information outside of that, including survey
[00:06:04] data. Everything was there. Now, what are the limits
[00:06:07] up to this wiretapping?
[00:06:11] Uh, Pak Ugro?
[00:06:15] Yes, so the wiretapping carried
[00:06:18] out by uh, three high-ranking
[00:06:22] police officers who are now detained, three people,
[00:06:26] one general and two two-star generals, and it's being
[00:06:29] developed. Uh, I start from Article
[00:06:33] 258 of the Criminal Code. Hmm, there it
[00:06:37] states in paragraph 1
[00:06:40] that it's not that easy to conduct wiretapping.
[00:06:43] So, a person, no citizen, should be wiretapped. Whoever it is, they should not
[00:06:47] be wiretapped. Yes, if for
[00:06:50] example it's disseminated, that's also prohibited, the results of the wiretap. Now, the
[00:06:53] third thing is, if the wiretapping is legal,
[00:06:57] there are rules for that too. It must be related to a criminal
[00:07:00] act. So there must be a police report, then after the police
[00:07:04] report, the case is heard, then
[00:07:07] a warrant is issued to start the investigation, SPDP, and
[00:07:11] it's followed up with a warrant for investigation. Now,
[00:07:15] can all cases be wiretapped? If all
[00:07:18] cases can be wiretapped, the rules are still unclear. For example, do
[00:07:22] pickpockets need to be wiretapped to find out where they are? That's difficult.
[00:07:25] So it should be certain criminal acts that can be wiretapped
[00:07:28] like that. Now, back to the incident, if
[00:07:32] wiretapping is carried out against the head of state and several high-ranking
[00:07:35] party officials, then their motives must be revealed.
[00:07:38] What are the motives of these wiretappers? For their own interests,
[00:07:42] or for their group, or for the interests of others
[00:07:46] there, or maybe if it's directed to something more serious,
[00:07:49] treason. If it's called treason, then we go back to Article
[00:07:53] 160 of the Criminal Code, which is an attack
[00:07:57] that has been manifested in the form of preparations,
[00:07:59] actions have been manifested. Now, if this
[00:08:03] is linked to actions, preparations, actions manifested,
[00:08:06] is this wiretapping part of the preparations,
[00:08:09] actions manifested? But once again, what is the position of these
[00:08:13] wiretappers? In the police? If in the police,
[00:08:17] this incident happened after the person concerned was no longer the Chief of Police,
[00:08:21] they were already out. Then, if it's for their own interests, are they
[00:08:25] running for politics? Oh, pardon me, are they running for
[00:08:28] 2029? Or the third thing is, to support whoever
[00:08:32] sent the message for 2029? This is interesting to analyze, so it's not
[00:08:35] just, oh, this wiretapping was
[00:08:39] done without involving other people. In my opinion, we can
[00:08:43] speculate that there must be an interest. Once
[00:08:46] again, their own interest or the interest
[00:08:49] of one party, or there's an interest of
[00:08:53] another party that also needs this information. So, once
[00:08:57] again, for me, this is an extraordinary achievement for Pak
[00:09:00] Kapolri, General Suyudi, to uncover this.
[00:09:03] And until now, I still uh, give
[00:09:06] appreciation for this uncovering. In my opinion, it's an extraordinary step
[00:09:10] that the police have taken for 80 years. And
[00:09:14] during my 35 years and 2 months of service in the police,
[00:09:17] uh, for me, once again, uh, and
[00:09:20] thank you
[00:09:23] uh, Pak Ugro, but I read an article, right?
[00:09:27] Uh, you also were once wiretapped, right? According
[00:09:31] to the quote from this article.
[00:09:34] Yes, so this wiretapping can be
[00:09:38] used as a tool to pressure.
[00:09:41] So all officials are being pressured. Because I often appear in
[00:09:44] several, uh, events related to Pak Rawisyo or Dr.
[00:09:47] Tipa. So I contacted some of my juniors, "Eh, how are things
[00:09:51] going? What about these problems? Say hello. How is the police
[00:09:54] doing? Are there any security guard problems and so on?"
[00:09:58] No one answered. Now, coincidentally, on August 21, 2026, there was a struggle
[00:10:02] day. I came and met my juniors and they said
[00:10:05] to me, "Excuse me, General, we couldn't reply to your WhatsApp or call
[00:10:09] because all of our phones are monitored by
[00:10:12] the Chief of Police." "Eh, you're already a three-star general, why are you afraid of being monitored?"
[00:10:16] Right? That's all. Don't be afraid, just open it
[00:10:18] up, right? That's how it is. So once again, besides
[00:10:22] for.
[00:10:27] Who? Oh, yes, he was still in office on August 21,
[00:10:31] 2006. Pak LSW was still the Chief of Police
[00:10:34] at that time. Whereas Pak Suyudi was on October 1,
[00:10:37] 2026. Hmm, okay, so that's why
[00:10:41] the motive is being questioned. How do you see the momentum, because we see
[00:10:45] the institutional dynamics that occurred, there was a change of Chief of Police,
[00:10:48] then there was also a large number of officials replaced.
[00:10:52] Then the report was also made. How do you see
[00:10:55] the momentum, Pak Ugro? Yes.
[00:10:59] These issues, I also, we are friends, Mas. For example,
[00:11:02] I am friends with, uh, for example,
[00:11:05] the head of the KSP who used to
[00:11:08] have a hobby of old vehicles. For example, I
[00:11:12] visited him because he gave me a greeting. We chatted,
[00:11:15] "Eh, Mas, how is this? Information,
[00:11:19] information sometimes comes out quickly from
[00:11:22] where? Everyone is still confused why these issues
[00:11:26] from around the president's inner circle can come out
[00:11:29] like that, right?" So, uh, in my opinion,
[00:11:32] this incident was carried out. Yes,
[00:11:35] maybe if the president, when he was still the Minister of Defense, would also
[00:11:39] feel it. But it wasn't
[00:11:43] too widely circulated and exploded like it is now.
[00:11:46] Now, everything is being tapped, not just
[00:11:49] the palace circle. So, for me, if this analysis
[00:11:53] can be studied with
[00:11:56] with, uh, what, comprehensively,
[00:11:59] then it will be able to reveal that things
[00:12:02] like this, uh, related to
[00:12:06] wiretapping, must really be avoided and strict regulations
[00:12:09] must be made so that it is not easy to wiretap, whether it is related
[00:12:13] to ordinary criminal acts or related to political and state issues
[00:12:17] like that. Good, so it is strongly suspected that when Pak Prabowo Dulma was still
[00:12:21] the Minister of Defense, he felt he was being wiretapped.
[00:12:25] Yes, uh, Bang Herdi,
[00:12:28] there are actually several cases of wiretapping that have affected
[00:12:32] presidents. In 1999, conversations
[00:12:35] between President BJ Habibi and Attorney General Andi Muhammad
[00:12:39] Ghalib about the handling of President Suharto's examination, although at that time
[00:12:42] the perpetrator was not released. In 2013,
[00:12:45] President SBY was found to have been wiretapped by
[00:12:49] Australia, and the wiretapping occurred in 2009. The impact was very
[00:12:52] serious, to the point of having to question the ambassador and even withdraw at that
[00:12:56] time. Now, how do you see the impact of this on
[00:13:01] is quite serious, the head of state himself
[00:13:03] was targeted, Bang Herdi?
[00:13:05] Yes, the discussion about wiretapping, I think, must be placed within the discussion
[00:13:09] or constitutional discourse, right? Eh, I feel like something
[00:13:13] is missing from this wiretapping drama. If then
[00:13:16] wiretapping is carried out on President Prabowo, it's always mentioned. So my question
[00:13:22] civil society, activists, are wiretapped.
[00:13:26] What are they called? This is what I think is missing from the discussion about
[00:13:29] wiretapping. It must be understood that from a constitutional
[00:13:33] perspective, privacy is a constitutional right guaranteed
[00:13:36] in the constitution. I think Article 28G paragraph 1 of the
[00:13:40] basic law clearly states that the state guarantees the right to privacy. Even if we
[00:13:43] compare it with several international covenants, one of which is the International Covenant
[00:13:47] on Civil and Political Rights, covenants on civil and political rights
[00:13:50] of society, Article 17 also clearly states
[00:13:53] that the right to privacy is an inviolable right and
[00:13:57] must be fully guaranteed by the state. Now, I think in
[00:14:01] this wiretapping issue, we cannot only focus on political
[00:14:05] elites. Because if the ruling is only for political elites, I think it's not
[00:14:08] fair, because wiretapping is about the basic rights of citizens
[00:14:12] or the privacy rights of citizens. Let me give an example,
[00:14:16] uh, Mas Iqbal, until now, we have not found any release
[00:14:19] from the police regarding who exactly was explicitly wiretapped,
[00:14:23] besides Parabow and uh, what, the Cabinet Secretary, for example.
[00:14:27] We don't know that. Even though what we want is for this announcement
[00:14:31] to confirm that there was indeed abuse within the police,
[00:14:34] there were unlawful actions carried out by police
[00:14:37] officers who spied on their own citizens, which clearly
[00:14:41] violates the constitution because it is a basic right of citizens, carried out
[00:14:45] by the police. The second thing, I think, is that these unlawful
[00:14:48] actions confirm that the police, even until now,
[00:14:51] are still a tool
[00:14:55] that is used, as Pakro said, as a tool
[00:14:58] to pressure. Now, ultimately, if we talk about a tool
[00:15:01] to pressure, this actually leads to efforts to control the opposition,
[00:15:05] for example, uh, if we read
[00:15:08] the genealogy of, uh, Pak Listo Sigit, for example, because he was indeed
[00:15:11] appointed and had a long history with Pak Jokowi, it's hard
[00:15:15] to deny that genealogically there is a connection with Pak
[00:15:18] Jokowi. But that is a political perspective. If we
[00:15:21] read his gene, perhaps because of the split
[00:15:25] (in inverted commas) between Pak Jokowi and Pak Prabowo, for example, then the wiretapping
[00:15:28] issue also emerges and develops everywhere, even tending to be wild,
[00:15:31] like that. For me, first, if we talk about
[00:15:35] wiretapping, it should be placed in
[00:15:37] the concept of the basic rights of citizens which were actually violated
[00:15:41] by some high-ranking officers in the police. That's one.
[00:15:43] Second, these arbitrary actions prove that
[00:15:47] even until now, we still don't have,
[00:15:51] uh, law enforcement apparatus, an institution
[00:15:54] called the Indonesian National Police, that is professional. Instead, there is
[00:15:58] a tendency to be detached. If Pak Suyudi's statement says that this
[00:16:02] is purely a legal matter, I don't believe that, because it's hard
[00:16:05] to deny that this is not just a legal problem.
[00:16:08] There is a situation where the police are indeed
[00:16:11] not professional in carrying out their duties and functions, even tending to
[00:16:15] overlap abusively with the basic rights of citizens. So,
[00:16:18] actually, I feel that this is also an opportunity for
[00:16:22] us to carry out or encourage further reform processes within
[00:16:25] the police institution with the facts that
[00:16:29] we have obtained in various cases. Okay, we'll continue later,
[00:16:32] because I also quoted Pak Ugro who once
[00:16:35] stated that this is strongly suspected to have intellectual
[00:16:39] actors behind all these wiretapping cases. We will discuss this further, but we
[00:16:43] need to take a break first. Please stay with us on Prime Time News.
[00:16:58] Presented
[00:16:59] by,
[00:17:03] supported by...
[00:17:38] top cappuccino with Italian flavor from
[00:19:03] are suspected of having conducted illegal wiretapping
[00:19:06] or illegal tapping
[00:19:09] of the telephone number of the President of the Republic
[00:19:12] of Indonesia.
[00:19:17] In this modern era, there are many ears that want
[00:19:19] to hear
[00:19:24] that this is absolutely
[00:19:27] treason.
[00:19:34] We will now continue this discussion with the resource person who has
[00:19:38] joined Prime Time News. Uh, Mas Taufiq, if
[00:19:42] we look at the relationship between Pak Jokowi and Pak Listio,
[00:19:45] it has, uh, been going on for a long time, right? Since
[00:19:49] in Solo, like that. Now, this inevitably makes people
[00:19:52] connect the dots, like that,
[00:19:55] between
[00:19:58] Yes, okay. Now, how do you respond to that, Mas Taufiq,
[00:20:02] uh, because, uh, if we
[00:20:05] look at it, Pak Listo can be said to be Pak Jokowi's
[00:20:09] trusted person. He was an aide, even became Chief of Police, whose appointment
[00:20:12] at that time surpassed more senior officers. That shows his closeness. How do you respond
[00:20:16] to that, Mas Taufiq?
[00:20:20] Uh, it's natural if there are people who then judge and make
[00:20:24] connections about the relationship between Pak Jokowi and Pak LS, or
[00:20:27] Pak LSP. When the issue of wiretapping
[00:20:30] emerged, it was as if it was linked to Pak
[00:20:34] Jokowi. Yes, of course there could be a connection, but...
[00:20:38] Please, let's read it objectively, that Pak
[00:20:41] Kapolri, or our former Chief of Police, is a soldier who
[00:20:44] will naturally only serve his superiors, he will
[00:20:48] serve his leaders, his supreme commander.
[00:20:51] Meaning, this is a matter that, in my opinion, cannot
[00:20:55] then be viewed with a straight line,
[00:20:58] just because of the coincidence of the close relationship between Pak Jokowi
[00:21:02] and Pak, uh, Sigit, that's also important.
[00:21:06] Especially since their relationship is not a family relationship,
[00:21:09] but a professional relationship. Even if from
[00:21:12] the beginning of Pak Sigit's career he was with Pak Jokowi,
[00:21:16] we shouldn't immediately conclude that whatever
[00:21:20] Pak Jokowi's political interests outside the palace are, Pak
[00:21:24] Sigit will follow them. That's the first thing. The second thing is, please
[00:21:27] also understand rationally
[00:21:30] that, uh, the relationship
[00:21:34] between Pak Sigit and Pak Prabowo, I think, is also very
[00:21:37] emotional, both as Chief of Police, as
[00:21:41] KSP, and also as fellow people who
[00:21:44] serve this country. So I think this is a matter
[00:21:47] of betrayal. I think betrayal can happen even to people who have
[00:21:51] a very emotional relationship. So we can't just scapegoat
[00:21:55] it just because of the closeness of Pak Jokowi with Pak Sigit, and then
[00:21:58] ultimately this incident is related to Solo. And I am
[00:22:01] very sure, especially since we just met with Pak Jokowi, what
[00:22:05] we saw was that when discussing this issue, it was precisely
[00:22:09] our confidence that this should be thoroughly
[00:22:12] investigated. Let's leave it to the police,
[00:22:16] right? So whatever is circulating in the media, for us, that
[00:22:19] is... normal. However, we still remind, including Pak Mahfud
[00:22:23] MD earlier, be careful, don't let it then fall
[00:22:26] into slander, don't let excessive suspicion and prejudice
[00:22:30] ultimately lead to us having a tajasus (spying) nature
[00:22:33] that ultimately leads to Solo. And we are no longer surprised. Even for
[00:22:37] trivial matters, is fired, someone is corrupt,
[00:22:41] ultimately it's Solo. The Hajj issue, ultimately it's Solo. So it's natural
[00:22:44] that this wiretapping issue ultimately involves Pak Jokowi. But one
[00:22:48] thing, thank God, we... not only believe, but we also encourage
[00:22:51] the Chief of Police to go ahead and conduct
[00:22:55] a much deeper investigation so that we know who the user
[00:22:58] is, whether it's domestic or foreign, or if it's related to
[00:23:01] political interests in 2029, as Pak
[00:23:05] Ugro suspected, or what. So I think this is important
[00:23:08] too. Once again, we are not afraid, and we are not worried. In fact,
[00:23:12] we, as part of the volunteers, encourage this
[00:23:15] to be purely a law enforcement process. Okay, Pak
[00:23:18] Ugro, uh, so where does it lead? If you happened to mention in
[00:23:22] the interview that this is strongly suspected to have intellectual
[00:23:26] actors, and you are also strongly suspected to have been a victim of
[00:23:29] that wiretapping, and the perpetrators are also those who are currently being processed, where does
[00:23:33] this wiretapping product lead, Pak Ugro?
[00:23:37] Yes, so maybe the wiretapping against me was not
[00:23:41] done, uh, maybe for, uh, let's say,
[00:23:44] people say, so I'll be a bit quiet, don't appear
[00:23:48] everywhere. Well, if I'm retired and don't appear anywhere, I'll get sick.
[00:23:52] That's a small problem for me. So I don't need to
[00:23:56] worry about it. But if it's now said that wiretapping
[00:23:59] was known
[00:24:01] to be ordered and carried out by a special team, where it's clear
[00:24:05] that three people are now detained, one four-star general, one two-star
[00:24:08] general, and two others, right? So what's
[00:24:12] the interest now if
[00:24:15] wiretapping is done by that's one
[00:24:18] rank of inspector one or first lieutenant then two
[00:24:21] brigadiers, right, this is something we can
[00:24:24] prove very quickly for what purpose, like, if they don't admit it, just call
[00:24:28] them for what, they'll surely admit it. Now, if
[00:24:32] what's happening now is some high-ranking police officers,
[00:24:36] rogue elements, not all of them, then
[00:24:39] for what purpose? For their own interests, for what?
[00:24:44] the beginning, to run themselves to become
[00:24:47] presidential candidates or vice presidential candidates in 2029,
[00:24:50] right? Can they do it alone like that? Or do they not have to conspire
[00:24:54] with existing political parties? If all political parties can, which political
[00:24:58] party will support them to become presidential candidates
[00:25:01] in 2029? Well, if we can't
[00:25:04] prove this second one, then there's another interest. Who is this?
[00:25:07] A bigger, stronger interest, which means it's above them. We're not
[00:25:11] saying this has to be
[00:25:15] up. So now, this needs to be proven
[00:25:18] by Mr. Suidi and the criminal investigation unit
[00:25:22] what was the intention of the
[00:25:25] high-ranking officials who carried out this wiretapping, who ordered
[00:25:29] this, who controlled this, for what purpose? So that
[00:25:33] the public can be more open like this. So for me, in the
[00:25:37] future, don't let the police institution be dragged
[00:25:40] into things that ultimately
[00:25:44] lead to wiretapping, which clearly will damage
[00:25:47] the good name of the police organization. The police,
[00:25:50] which has been built for years and has reached the age
[00:25:54] of 80 years, something like that. So I said, okay,
[00:25:57] my analysis is that there must be a higher intellectual actor
[00:26:01] than the general,
[00:26:03] but I can't reveal this yet because the investigation is still ongoing
[00:26:07] like that. And especially if this
[00:26:11] didn't happen since 2025, but according to some
[00:26:14] former officials,
[00:26:17] it has even been going on long before 2025.
[00:26:21] Bang Herdi, actually, if
[00:26:24] we talk about the lawful interception management system,
[00:26:27] it's legal, right? It's a system
[00:26:31] to manage the central management of listening or monitoring communications legally. So,
[00:26:34] how can we prevent this legal system from being exploited to
[00:26:38] carry out wiretapping for
[00:26:41] certain interests or being misused, Bang
[00:26:45] Herdi?
[00:26:48] Yes, I think it's important for me to clarify that in the concept of a legal
[00:26:51] system for implementing wiretapping, I think it's also
[00:26:55] important to be careful, because the instrument of wiretapping is
[00:26:59] vulnerable to infringing on the basic
[00:27:03] rights of citizens, as I explained earlier, because it is the privacy of the basic
[00:27:07] rights of citizens guaranteed by law, then the concept of wiretapping must
[00:27:10] also be regulated as detailed as possible. That's why in
[00:27:14] various laws that adopt wiretapping, they actually
[00:27:18] regulate the monitoring system strictly, because the danger
[00:27:21] is this: if then the design of monitoring through the wiretapping
[00:27:25] system is carried out without certain qualifications,
[00:27:28] then it will tend to be abusive. Moreover,
[00:27:33] given the authority to conduct wiretapping does not carry out the wiretapping
[00:27:36] process as per its function and authority, what's happening now
[00:27:39] is actually like that, where there is a group, yes, I can
[00:27:43] say a group, of high-ranking officers who then carry out the wiretapping
[00:27:46] process, but if we look and read, actually, what I
[00:27:50] mentioned earlier about genealogy, don't forget,
[00:27:54] Mr. Sigit was actually still in his capacity as
[00:27:57] police chief when the wiretapping process was carried out if it
[00:28:01] really started in 2025. That's why I said earlier, this is actually
[00:28:04] about like or dislike, there is the influence
[00:28:08] of political factions that are currently estranged,
[00:28:11] between Prabowo and Jokowi, but
[00:28:15] between both internal and political factions is useless
[00:28:19] for the public, because until now we have not found
[00:28:22] a single sentence or a single situation where we
[00:28:26] can get an explanation of what about the basic rights of citizens. Okay,
[00:28:30] for example, wiretapping against the president, it's illegal. Legally, three suspects.
[00:28:34] The question is, wiretapping against civil society, against activists,
[00:28:39] being done by friends in the police, for example, there's nothing at all. So the scope
[00:28:43] of wiretapping, I always believe that if it is managed by
[00:28:47] an institution that is not capable, it is vulnerable to
[00:28:50] being used as a tool of power, then
[00:28:54] wiretapping will end up being a situation that
[00:28:57] causes the basic rights of citizens to be seized or an abusive action
[00:29:00] by the institution.
[00:29:02] That's the first thing. The second thing I want to say
[00:29:05] is this: if we read
[00:29:08] about the purpose of wiretapping, that's what should be used as
[00:29:12] the basis, right? It's hard not to say
[00:29:15] that if then the conversation leads to treason
[00:29:19] and so on, then what's important to ensure is what the purpose
[00:29:22] actually is. If we read about Mr. Sigit and his fellow high-ranking
[00:29:25] officers who have been designated as suspects in illegal
[00:29:29] wiretapping, they wouldn't be doing it just for fun, right?
[00:29:33] They certainly have a purpose. Now, this problem of purpose is what needs to be traced by
[00:29:36] law enforcement officials, police investigators. What is the motive, what
[00:29:40] is the intention? Thus, if we understand the motive and intention
[00:29:44] of the wiretapping, we will know who is involved. If
[00:29:49] was discussed, whether there were, for example, clear preliminary actions
[00:29:53] as mentioned by Mr. Ouro earlier in Article 160 of the Criminal Code,
[00:29:56] in Article 160 of the Criminal Code, it is clear that there are clear
[00:30:00] preliminary actions, for example, taking up arms or there is a criminal
[00:30:03] conspiracy related to Articles 191, 192, and
[00:30:07] 193 of the Criminal Code. Is he, for example, planning
[00:30:10] to kill the president or make the president and vice president unable
[00:30:14] to exercise their power, or is it, for example,
[00:30:17] related to the separation of the sovereign territory
[00:30:20] of the Republic of Indonesia or perhaps there is indeed a plan to
[00:30:24] overthrow the legitimate government, well, how
[00:30:27] to understand that is only by uncovering
[00:30:30] the direction of the conversation, who ordered it, who was involved in the conversation,
[00:30:34] and what was actually discussed. Only then can we conclude that
[00:30:38] there is indeed a tendency towards that. But for me, this is actually about many
[00:30:41] political calculations that need to be confirmed in the legal realm,
[00:30:45] because no matter how wild political conversations are, if they are
[00:30:48] not legally confirmed, then issues like this, I'm
[00:30:51] worried that the wiretapping issue will just pass by,
[00:30:55] so it will just disappear like that,
[00:30:58] right.