N1BOS — broadcast
20261102 193000 UTC
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[00:00:00] anti-Semitic ideology, and
[00:00:03] what has been happening since October 7,
[00:00:05] 2023,
[00:00:07] are attempts by Israel and defenders of Israel to
[00:00:11] silence critics
[00:00:13] of Israeli politics on university
[00:00:17] campuses across America and Europe.
[00:00:20] They claim, and simply claim that such
[00:00:23] protests against violence are anti-Semitic. A large
[00:00:26] majority of them were not. And this created
[00:00:30] a boomerang effect and
[00:00:32] these protests were silenced due to
[00:00:35] accusations of anti-Semitism, and so they
[00:00:39] made space for true
[00:00:41] anti-Semitism, not just for accusations
[00:00:45] on that topic, so they somehow
[00:00:48] 50% of that gave permission for the growth
[00:00:51] of anti-Semitism,
[00:00:55] which is now attributed
[00:00:58] to some people who are assumed
[00:01:02] to be Jewish, nobody asks who they are, what their
[00:01:05] actual opinion is, and currently, as a result
[00:01:09] of all of this, in America and
[00:01:12] Europe,
[00:01:14] there are those who traditionally have
[00:01:17] anti-Semitic claims regarding Jewish
[00:01:20] financing, dual loyalty, that
[00:01:24] Jews support Israel and
[00:01:27] more than just national interests. of the country where they
[00:01:31] live,
[00:01:32] simply, Israel's activities
[00:01:36] have given permission for such a rise
[00:01:39] in anti-Semitism. From the very beginning, the state
[00:01:42] of Israel claims that it is the representative
[00:01:46] of Jews worldwide, and if they
[00:01:49] behaved as they should and if they
[00:01:53] were considered a refuge for social
[00:01:56] justice and the renewal of Jewish
[00:01:58] identity. That would be fine, however, if
[00:02:02] Israel behaves as it behaves today, violently
[00:02:06] and racistly, precisely because
[00:02:08] they claim to be representatives of Jews worldwide, without
[00:02:12] asking for their opinion, that gives
[00:02:16] an excuse for anti-Semitism.
[00:02:19] Anti-Semitism existed even before the creation
[00:02:22] of the state of Israel.
[00:02:26] Simply, even if Israel no longer exists, anti-Semitism
[00:02:30] will still be there. Israel gives the best excuse today
[00:02:33] to anti-Semites worldwide,
[00:02:36] and one way to stop that is for
[00:02:38] reform.
[00:02:41] So, if I understood you correctly, uh,
[00:02:44] correct me if I'm wrong, according to your assessment,
[00:02:48] Israel actually today,
[00:02:51] uh, generates anti-Semitic sentiments worldwide.
[00:02:55] svijeta.
[00:03:01] Absolutely,
[00:03:02] yes.
[00:03:05] We'll return to the conversation after a short commercial break. Stay with us.
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[00:05:31] Omer Bartov, probably
[00:05:33] one of the most famous and very likely
[00:05:37] the most influential Holocaust
[00:05:40] historian, is with us... in the show "Beyond
[00:05:43] the Frame". Professor, you are a genocide
[00:05:46] historian and you choose your words very precisely.
[00:05:50] The term genocide has almost been normalized in the Western public
[00:05:54] space when talking about Gaza. However, there are
[00:05:57] lawyers and international law experts who
[00:06:00] claim that, despite the devastating
[00:06:03] nature and massive scale of the crimes, the legal
[00:06:06] criteria for genocide have not been met. Is there
[00:06:10] term will weaken its historical and legal weight?
[00:06:26] Yes, it's true that ever since
[00:06:29] Lemkin coined this
[00:06:32] term in 1944, a Polish,
[00:06:35] Polish-Jewish lawyer who fled from Poland to
[00:06:39] America, and ever since the UN
[00:06:43] adopted that term through the 1948
[00:06:47] convention,
[00:06:49] that concept is often used
[00:06:52] to express
[00:06:55] horror towards certain
[00:06:58] crimes. It is not always used precisely in accordance with
[00:07:02] the definition. However, there is
[00:07:04] a definition
[00:07:07] contained in the UN Convention of
[00:07:09] 1948.
[00:07:12] And that definition must be applied to
[00:07:16] different cases. In the case of Gaza, I say this in
[00:07:20] my
[00:07:20] own name.
[00:07:24] I have thought about this
[00:07:27] for a long time,
[00:07:30] already in November
[00:07:31] 2023.
[00:07:35] After 10,000 people
[00:07:38] had already been killed in Gaza during the first four weeks
[00:07:43] of violence, I said then that there was evidence of
[00:07:47] crimes against humanity, that if the operation was not stopped,
[00:07:51] it could become
[00:07:52] genocidal.
[00:07:56] Israeli political and military leaders
[00:07:59] had already made some statements that speak of genocidal
[00:08:03] intent and incitement to genocide.
[00:08:06] However, my warnings,
[00:08:08] and the warnings of others,
[00:08:12] Israel did not listen to them,
[00:08:15] nor did their main defenders, America. And by
[00:08:19] May of that year, I was already coming to the conclusion
[00:08:23] that simply, evidence of
[00:08:27] intent is now emerging. And the very definition
[00:08:30] of genocide from the UN Convention
[00:08:34] is that it represents activities carried out with the intent to
[00:08:37] destroy a specific national, ethnic, religious,
[00:08:40] or racial group, partially or in whole, the group
[00:08:44] as such.
[00:08:47] And when we talk about what Israel was doing in Gaza, they
[00:08:51] expressed their intention
[00:08:53] at the very beginning. The International
[00:08:57] Court
[00:08:58] of Justice
[00:09:02] spoke of intent
[00:09:05] that could be proven between October 2023 and the summer
[00:09:09] of 2024, because it was clear
[00:09:13] that Israel's goal was ethnic cleansing,
[00:09:16] that it would become impossible for the population to live
[00:09:20] in Gaza anymore. They were systematically relocating from
[00:09:23] north to south, and everything was being
[00:09:26] destroyed - houses, universities,
[00:09:30] mosques, schools, museums,
[00:09:32] parks, electricity, water
[00:09:36] - in order to prevent that group from
[00:09:39] continuing to live there after the violence ended.
[00:09:44] Ethnic cleansing did not succeed because Palestinians have nowhere
[00:09:48] to go. The border with Egypt was closed,
[00:09:52] and of course they were not allowed to cross into Israel. As in
[00:09:56] many other cases of genocide, it started as
[00:10:00] ethnic cleansing, which
[00:10:04] turned into a genocidal operation. When I
[00:10:07] wrote that in August
[00:10:09] 2024,
[00:10:12] everyone agreed with me, but many were
[00:10:16] still reserved. And when I wrote that
[00:10:19] again in the New York Times in July
[00:10:22] 2025, I think
[00:10:26] most lawyers, international scholars
[00:10:30] agreed with me, those who study genocide,
[00:10:33] and there is that
[00:10:35] consensus.
[00:10:39] Of course, it's hard to ascertain and we don't have all
[00:10:42] the facts, but I think by now, today,
[00:10:46] most experts consider it to be
[00:10:49] genocide, and we don't know
[00:10:52] in what direction things are now moving. So
[00:10:56] it's not all over.
[00:10:58] The population in Gaza lives in terrible conditions
[00:11:01] in less than half of the space in
[00:11:05] Gaza, because it was one of the most densely populated
[00:11:09] parts of the world before the war. Now they live in less than
[00:11:13] territory, without basic
[00:11:16] living conditions and for
[00:11:19] survival. So it's still
[00:11:22] not over, but I think so.
[00:11:30] It seems that after October 7, a kind of moral suspension
[00:11:33] occurred, as if Israel's trauma
[00:11:37] became for many an argument that
[00:11:40] suspends universal rules. It reminds
[00:11:44] me a little of the idea
[00:11:48] that ideology works best precisely
[00:11:51] when we think we are acting out of pure moral
[00:11:55] necessity and duty. Is
[00:11:58] Israel today trapped in its own trauma, perhaps?
[00:12:10] Yes, I wrote about it in my
[00:12:13] book,
[00:12:16] not only Israeli politicians and
[00:12:19] the far right and those who are currently in power,
[00:12:23] I would say that a large majority of Israelis, even those who are
[00:12:27] more inclined to the left, are now
[00:12:29] trapped in that idea of their own
[00:12:32] sacrifice. It must be
[00:12:36] said. The Hamas attack on October 7,
[00:12:39] 2023, was a war crime and a crime against
[00:12:43] humanity. Around 800 civilians were
[00:12:47] massacred. Women, children,
[00:12:50] elderly people. There were
[00:12:53] reported cases of rape. And that feeling
[00:12:56] of insecurity and rage that was created
[00:13:00] after that, Israeli
[00:13:02] media and government used to
[00:13:06] present it as a Nazi act similar
[00:13:09] to the Holocaust.
[00:13:12] And they talked about Hamas as Nazis, and all that created
[00:13:16] a feeling of sacrifice, danger, and the need
[00:13:20] for revenge, for endless,
[00:13:23] unlimited revenge.
[00:13:25] And with the complete destruction of Gaza, and there was
[00:13:28] a consensus in Israel about it, it's not just government
[00:13:32] policy.
[00:13:34] That of course means it's impossible to look at
[00:13:38] things rationally.
[00:13:41] Israel would usually not get away with
[00:13:43] it, because many thought that at
[00:13:47] some point Israel would try to ethnically cleanse
[00:13:50] Palestine, but it was thought that after a few
[00:13:54] weeks, the international community would get involved and stop
[00:13:57] Israel. However, that didn't
[00:13:59] happen now,
[00:14:01] and that, it simply contributed to that feeling
[00:14:05] of victimhood in Israel. You know well from experience in your
[00:14:09] region that it's the best way to justify
[00:14:12] violence, when you claim you're always right
[00:14:16] because of what was done to you in the past,
[00:14:19] that your violence is therefore justified.
[00:14:22] And
[00:14:25] also the international community did not
[00:14:28] stop Israel, not only did it not stop them, but it
[00:14:32] helped them, providing weapons,
[00:14:34] economic, diplomatic aid.
[00:14:37] And now we are in
[00:14:40] the current
[00:14:43] situation where the state of Israel
[00:14:47] can no longer rely on the memory of
[00:14:49] the Holocaust to justify its
[00:14:52] actions.
[00:14:55] Because simply, when you use the memory of the Holocaust to
[00:14:58] justify genocide, you
[00:15:00] undermine, you undermine your own legitimacy, and
[00:15:04] I think Israel will long-term have to find
[00:15:08] another way not
[00:15:11] to refer anymore to the horrors of the Holocaust
[00:15:14] to justify its genocidal
[00:15:17] activities. You grew up with the memory of
[00:15:20] the Holocaust, you served in the IDF, and today
[00:15:24] you speak of Israeli crimes, with language that many in
[00:15:27] Israel probably perceive as
[00:15:30] betrayal. How does Professor Bartov
[00:15:34] psychologically endure the moment when...
[00:15:37] he concludes, uh, he finds that the community
[00:15:41] he belongs to no longer represents the values he believed in?
[00:15:57] It's difficult, of course.
[00:16:01] I don't think I'm the only one who feels
[00:16:04] that way. I have friends, colleagues in Israel
[00:16:10] who are brave and
[00:16:12] speak loudly about this, but they are
[00:16:15] a minority.
[00:16:18] And they
[00:16:19] are really
[00:16:22] deeply disappointed by the events in
[00:16:26] the state they once believed in, in which they
[00:16:29] invested so much energy. Like me, I was
[00:16:33] four years in the army, seriously wounded,
[00:16:36] I could say that I shed blood for that
[00:16:39] state.
[00:16:41] I spent the first half of my life there, I have friends
[00:16:45] and family there and I truly care deeply
[00:16:48] about them and it is truly very
[00:16:51] difficult. What keeps me and many
[00:16:55] others going is the conviction that nothing
[00:16:58] is inevitable and that things can
[00:17:01] change,
[00:17:04] but first you have to face the facts,
[00:17:08] with what is currently happening, because if
[00:17:11] we don't acknowledge the facts, we cannot move
[00:17:13] forward. And when we acknowledge
[00:17:17] the facts, then we can think about how to
[00:17:20] fix it. We cannot bring back all those who
[00:17:24] died, we cannot undo the suffering,
[00:17:27] but if you recognize the basic
[00:17:30] problem, and the problem is in the relationship between
[00:17:33] Israel and Palestine, where we had
[00:17:37] a situation from Israel's side, then
[00:17:40] you realize that this is a problem that can be solved in order to
[00:17:44] improve life for both Jews and
[00:17:47] Palestinians. Then
[00:17:51] you can say what might not be popular
[00:17:54] now, but can help people long-term.
[00:17:57] So then we can face
[00:18:00] reality and build a better future. When
[00:18:03] you talk to young Americans and European students, do you
[00:18:07] have a feeling that
[00:18:10] the attitude towards Israel has irreversibly
[00:18:12] changed, and if so, what
[00:18:16] does that mean long-term for the very idea of Israel as a project that for decades
[00:18:20] depended on the moral support
[00:18:23] of the West?
[00:18:30] Yes,
[00:18:35] yes, there has been a change in Europe
[00:18:39] and in America, you see it among young people and generally,
[00:18:42] i
[00:18:45] and there is an interesting division
[00:18:48] between political, intellectual, and media
[00:18:51] elites,
[00:18:55] those largest media outlets that still
[00:18:58] largely protect Israel, and public
[00:19:02] opinion. Public opinion has
[00:19:04] changed.
[00:19:07] In my opinion, numerous surveys show this. What does
[00:19:10] that mean?
[00:19:15] I think that's a good thing in a certain
[00:19:19] sense.
[00:19:21] The main
[00:19:24] problem was that
[00:19:28] many of Israel's spheres of influence
[00:19:31] were defined in Washington, and
[00:19:34] as long as that was the case, there were no restrictions.
[00:19:38] Israel could decide there was no
[00:19:41] diplomacy or politics at all. They could choose
[00:19:45] a combination
[00:19:46] of propaganda,
[00:19:49] meaning that any criticism of Israel was anti-Semitic,
[00:19:53] and they could choose to use violence,
[00:19:56] bombs, and never work
[00:20:00] on resolving that fundamental
[00:20:02] issue. If the boundaries
[00:20:05] of Israeli authority were returned to Jerusalem where
[00:20:09] they belong, Israel would no longer have a choice
[00:20:12] but to return to politics. And when
[00:20:16] they do that and when they understand the limits
[00:20:19] of their authority, then it will be
[00:20:23] possible for new political
[00:20:26] leadership to emerge among Jews, but also among
[00:20:30] Palestinians. It is true, Israel has
[00:20:33] lost much of what it previously had and will have
[00:20:37] to somehow get it back. It can only get it back
[00:20:41] by reforming,
[00:20:45] redefining itself and saying that
[00:20:47] Zionism has now become an ideology of machismo and
[00:20:51] violence, that we reject that
[00:20:53] ideology, that we will re-form our state
[00:20:57] as a state of all citizens,
[00:21:01] based on moral, ethical, democratic
[00:21:05] standards. That will take a long time, but that is the only way
[00:21:09] for Israel to regain its place among the nations
[00:21:12] of the world. What is the political
[00:21:15] landscape in Israel today? Are there in the opposition's
[00:21:20] ranks, uh, political, moral
[00:21:24] voices that try to draw attention
[00:21:28] to the scale of the crimes being committed by the current
[00:21:31] government?
[00:21:41] Unfortunately, no.
[00:21:45] Today in Israel we have
[00:21:47] a coalition that belongs to the deeply
[00:21:51] corrupt and
[00:21:53] violent right wing.
[00:21:56] The people who want to
[00:21:59] replace it represent a coalition
[00:22:02] of parties, some of which are
[00:22:05] right-wing and are connected to Netanyahu's
[00:22:08] party. Some belong to the center
[00:22:12] and somewhat to the left.
[00:22:16] They are somewhat less corrupt.
[00:22:20] They could offer some solutions for Israeli
[00:22:24] society, among other things,
[00:22:28] for Palestinian
[00:22:30] citizens who are under enormous pressure from the current
[00:22:33] government. However, they have not made
[00:22:37] any credible plan on what to do with
[00:22:40] the occupation and oppression of Palestinians who are
[00:22:44] under Israeli military rule. They have not offered
[00:22:47] any ideas for Gaza.
[00:22:53] And some of them are just as extreme as
[00:22:56] members of the government itself.
[00:22:59] From that perspective,
[00:23:01] a change of government would not bring any significant
[00:23:05] change in Israeli policy regarding Palestine,
[00:23:09] but in that way it would somehow
[00:23:13] clear up the deep corruption we've seen in
[00:23:15] every corner of Israeli society during two
[00:23:19] decades of Netanyahu's rule. That
[00:23:22] would be a beginning and an opening of pathways for
[00:23:26] more moderate voices in Israeli
[00:23:30] society itself. However, the main change
[00:23:33] in Israeli politics can only come through
[00:23:37] external pressure. Because in Israeli
[00:23:40] society itself or Palestinian society, there is currently no
[00:23:43] such dynamic that would offer
[00:23:47] a fundamental paradigmatic political
[00:23:50] solution. That can only come under pressure from outside, mostly from
[00:23:53] the United States. I expect that to
[00:23:57] happen in the next day or
[00:24:00] two, but I believe that the new
[00:24:03] American administration, whether
[00:24:06] Republican or Democratic, will
[00:24:09] be much
[00:24:11] more critical
[00:24:14] regarding its wartime support
[00:24:17] for Israel. Opinion is changing
[00:24:20] in America, and when Israel is exposed
[00:24:24] to greater pressure in the form of sanctions due to its
[00:24:26] behavior - military, economic, political
[00:24:30] sanctions -
[00:24:33] that will bring the beginning of changes in Israeli
[00:24:36] society. So, political change
[00:24:40] would not necessarily imply
[00:24:44] the necessary moral renewal, not just
[00:24:48] of politics in Israel, but moral renewal of society.
[00:25:01] I hope that in
[00:25:04] October,
[00:25:07] the current government will be replaced. I hope this for personal reasons, because
[00:25:10] I would like to go to
[00:25:13] Israel, I don't intend to go there
[00:25:17] while Netanyahu is prime minister.
[00:25:22] And as long as we have the current Minister of National Security,
[00:25:26] I don't think I would personally feel safe
[00:25:28] there. I would like that change to happen,
[00:25:32] but it will not
[00:25:35] bring big changes in Israeli politics. That will be
[00:25:38] the beginning of a process. Netanyahu has been prime minister
[00:25:42] for so long. Most Israelis don't remember
[00:25:45] anyone else ever being prime minister. It
[00:25:48] must
[00:25:50] change.
[00:25:55] Maybe the moral and political
[00:25:58] pillars of Israeli society will
[00:26:02] begin to clear up in some way. That will be
[00:26:04] a big first step, but there will not be a big
[00:26:08] change. You must understand that
[00:26:12] Israeli society is currently in
[00:26:16] a state of denial. They are not able
[00:26:18] to face the crimes committed
[00:26:22] in Gaza, which are committed daily in the West
[00:26:25] Bank, with the displacement of over a million people
[00:26:29] and in Lebanon.
[00:26:33] You have a whole series of villages that have been destroyed,
[00:26:36] and the gasification
[00:26:40] of Lebanon. So, Israeli
[00:26:43] society is in deep denial. That will not disappear when
[00:26:47] the government changes. That
[00:26:49] must come exclusively through pain, much more
[00:26:53] pain, like a kind of shock
[00:26:56] therapy, and that can only come
[00:26:58] from outside. It is necessary for Israeli society
[00:27:03] to face the mistakes of the past in order
[00:27:07] to reform internally. That
[00:27:10] is a much longer process. It will not happen
[00:27:13] in October, even if the government changes.
[00:27:16] In
[00:27:19] the best case, we have a 50% chance that it
[00:27:22] will happen. I ask myself, can a society that has been
[00:27:26] organized around security for decades
[00:27:30] even imagine peace without an enemy?
[00:27:43] That is something that people in Israel have been saying
[00:27:46] for a long time, that enemy holds the whole
[00:27:50] society together. As I wrote in my
[00:27:54] book, there are two elements
[00:27:57] that have become crucial for Israeli society and
[00:28:01] for understanding
[00:28:04] itself. One is
[00:28:06] the Holocaust
[00:28:09] which began to play a large role in
[00:28:12] Israeli identity, not immediately after
[00:28:16] the Holocaust, but from the 80s
[00:28:19] onwards.
[00:28:23] And as Israel
[00:28:25] became militarily superior to
[00:28:29] its neighbors, the Holocaust began to play a
[00:28:32] role as a kind of social glue, which
[00:28:36] bound together opposing
[00:28:38] factions in Israeli
[00:28:41] society,
[00:28:43] Jews from different parts, young and
[00:28:47] old. So the Holocaust as something that
[00:28:50] happened in the past, but as an immediate
[00:28:53] threat, a threat of extermination.
[00:28:56] Of course, that is not true,
[00:28:59] it is not true. Since 1973, Israel
[00:29:03] has not fought any
[00:29:05] foreign army. There were only
[00:29:09] guerrilla organizations that were not capable of
[00:29:12] threatening Israel itself. However, it
[00:29:15] became the main element of Israeli
[00:29:18] rhetoric, both internally and externally. The Holocaust played a very
[00:29:22] important role in solidifying Israeli
[00:29:25] society in a negative way.
[00:29:28] And the other thing that changed Israeli society
[00:29:32] over time is the occupation,
[00:29:35] the dehumanization of others,
[00:29:39] because when you rule over others, you must
[00:29:41] dehumanize them, and while you are doing that,
[00:29:44] you dehumanize yourself. themselves. Decades
[00:29:47] of Israelis, men, women
[00:29:50] participated in the occupation
[00:29:53] and oppression of others, because that's how
[00:29:56] you do it, you put people in one place, you show them that you are
[00:29:59] the boss, so, you treat them like... people who have fewer
[00:30:03] rights or who have no rights at all
[00:30:06] it had consequences for
[00:30:10] society in Israel. Can Israel be
[00:30:13] two
[00:30:15] elements?
[00:30:18] obvious, but we must
[00:30:22] historical cases, for example, France
[00:30:25] against Algeria, when they
[00:30:28] smatrali da Alžir mora ostati francuski nakon tog.
[00:30:32] horrible war, when
[00:30:35] ljudi, Francuska je konačno otišla i do
[00:30:39] Alžira i tek tada se moglo modernizovati, postati bolje
[00:30:42] citizens,
[00:30:46] the end of the Second World
[00:30:49] rata, ko bi pomislio da
[00:30:52] Njemačka, kojom su vladali nacisti koja je
[00:30:55] uništila čitavu Evropu, ko bi
[00:30:58] pomislio da se ona može.