N1HRV — broadcast
20261012 130000 UTC
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[00:04:07] Good day and welcome once again to the N1 television program, our
[00:04:11] Zagreb studio, welcome to a new day, we will now go to
[00:04:14] Germany where our colleague Srećko Matić from
[00:04:18] Deutsche Welle is waiting for us, who of course follows all the
[00:04:22] most interesting, most important events in Germany,
[00:04:25] recently it has been a spy scandal. Srećko, good morning and welcome
[00:04:29] to our program.
[00:04:31] Good morning Hrvoje, thank you for the invitation and warm greetings to your viewers.
[00:04:35] So, one of the biggest spy scandals in
[00:04:38] the last few decades, some would say, maybe even
[00:04:42] a century, but it's hard to say it's bigger than the one that
[00:04:45] led to the change of the German
[00:04:49] Chancellor, more than fifty
[00:04:51] years ago now, but again
[00:04:54] I repeat, one of the biggest spy scandals in
[00:04:57] Germany.
[00:05:00] The man who for seven years led the BND, the most important,
[00:05:03] the most significant German
[00:05:07] recent incident in Leipzig, at intelligence service, was arrested and accused of high treason, what
[00:05:10] happened, what is it about? Where do all the branches of this
[00:05:14] story lead?
[00:05:17] Well, the branches lead in various directions, as far as can be judged, this is still, of course, not
[00:05:21] officially confirmed because the investigation is still ongoing,
[00:05:24] but there are certain indications that the
[00:05:27] branches are spreading to different countries,
[00:05:31] some countries that are officially perceived here in Germany
[00:05:34] by the German executive power as, among
[00:05:37] other things, a competitor, a rival, and even
[00:05:41] a system opponent country, for example, like
[00:05:44] China or Azerbaijan, these are two potential
[00:05:47] principals, i.e., intelligence services or bodies from
[00:05:51] those countries who, according to indications,
[00:05:54] were likely the principals of August Hanning in obtaining
[00:05:58] certain information, preparing certain analyses, a man who
[00:06:02] from 1998 to 2005 was at the head of the BND,
[00:06:05] the Bundesnachrichtendienst, the most important German foreign intelligence service, meaning a service
[00:06:09] that operates abroad, not within Germany.
[00:06:12] Apparently, from what it seems, in a period
[00:06:16] of at least 10, 12 years, he obtained more than
[00:06:19] 200 documents from the
[00:06:22] BND marked confidential, highly confidential
[00:06:25] or state secret in cooperation
[00:06:28] with his companion Manfred D, and the
[00:06:32] information he obtained in this way, which was for internal
[00:06:35] use, apparently, he used as
[00:06:38] a private individual, he worked as a private individual and produced these analyses.
[00:06:42] as a private individual for his own account and apparently
[00:06:45] sold them to third
[00:06:47] countries.
[00:06:50] Uh, one of the things that also made
[00:06:54] its way to the public, which is perhaps an additional reason for concern when it comes to
[00:06:58] German institutions, is
[00:07:00] that his activity and this whole story
[00:07:04] were discovered by chance as part of another investigation, not because
[00:07:07] someone specifically went after
[00:07:10] the former head of the BND.
[00:07:14] It really is these days, one has the feeling of being in some
[00:07:17] kind of telenovela or a bad crime thriller,
[00:07:21] a really bad crime thriller, because when we see the circumstances of how it happened, you're
[00:07:25] right that it happened more or less by chance, let's say
[00:07:28] by chance, rather than intentionally, it was an investigation in
[00:07:31] a completely different case, an investigation in which the services of the federal state of Hamburg
[00:07:35] were active, it was
[00:07:38] about a love drama, to simplify
[00:07:41] it like that mm... about a lady who is
[00:07:44] the heiress of an empire of restaurants that are known primarily
[00:07:48] for their steaks, a chain of
[00:07:50] restaurants that offers steaks, that lady who is a rich heiress apparently
[00:07:54] had certain love problems with her husband, they divorced,
[00:07:58] then the question of who would get custody of their
[00:08:01] two children became relevant, apparently the father
[00:08:05] won the right and the mother was apparently very resentful and
[00:08:08] planned the abduction of her own
[00:08:12] children from her husband, and Hanning was a private individual at that time and, among
[00:08:15] other things, he was one of the people she hired
[00:08:18] to, as indications say,
[00:08:21] and for which Hanning himself is accused of,
[00:08:25] planning the abduction of their two children. Hanning later
[00:08:29] denied this, but there are again very strong indications that his
[00:08:32] company, meaning his private entrepreneurial company
[00:08:36] was also involved in attempts to defame that gentleman, meaning
[00:08:39] the father, in order for the mother to obtain custody of
[00:08:43] those two children in the framework of that investigation
[00:08:47] - the authorities of the federal state of Hamburg raided his house,
[00:08:50] searched his documents, his computers, and by chance they came across
[00:08:54] documents that were much more interesting than those they
[00:08:57] were looking for, and as it later turned out, this is what
[00:09:01] led to this move, the unique
[00:09:04] move that the former head of the BND
[00:09:07] was arrested, he is currently in pre-trial
[00:09:10] detention and the judge of the investigation
[00:09:14] ordered him to remain behind bars indefinitely.
[00:09:17] Is there any unofficial or rough estimate of the extent
[00:09:21] to which the German intelligence system has been
[00:09:24] compromised by this?
[00:09:26] There are, it's quite clear from this
[00:09:29] very moment, at the latest from this very moment, that it is
[00:09:33] more than compromised, because the biggest problem with this case is actually
[00:09:37] not the fact that August Hanning, as the former head of the BND,
[00:09:40] obtained some documents
[00:09:43] and actually sold these documents to some third
[00:09:46] countries that benefited from it, meaning
[00:09:50] it was, among other things, about information about the state of
[00:09:53] the Russian army or the Iranian
[00:09:57] nuclear program, meaning very sensitive information for which someone
[00:10:00] was certainly willing to pay a considerable
[00:10:04] fee. The problem is that it is, of course,
[00:10:07] an embarrassment, nothing less than a great embarrassment for the German
[00:10:10] intelligence system. precisely at a time when the
[00:10:14] BND, under the current leadership of Martin Eger, is trying
[00:10:17] to recover from numerous reputational blows in recent years, meaning this
[00:10:21] embarrassment is compounded by the fact that a few years ago there was another
[00:10:25] case from the BND, one of their intelligence officers leaked
[00:10:29] information, apparently to Russian intelligence services, and precisely
[00:10:32] in these days, months, this case is being unraveled before a Berlin
[00:10:36] court, and they are trying to find out the actual
[00:10:40] extent of the case, the extent of the guilt of their
[00:10:43] intelligence officer. Apart from the embarrassment, what is much more important for
[00:10:47] all of us actually in Europe, not only in Germany but in
[00:10:50] the European Union, is the fact that this
[00:10:53] case undermines trust in the BND as
[00:10:57] a key security agency in Europe.
[00:11:01] I remind you that this is a service that is responsible for
[00:11:04] cooperation abroad and for activities abroad, among other things, it is, for example, the counterpart
[00:11:07] of the American CIA,
[00:11:10] and as such, the agency is responsible for cooperation and
[00:11:14] for cooperation with similar agencies in other countries, partner
[00:11:18] countries, exchange of information, among other things, for example, on the
[00:11:21] issue of preventing possible terrorist
[00:11:25] attacks. In a situation where something like this happens, trust in the BND
[00:11:28] is lost, and some other services in friendly
[00:11:32] countries will probably think twice about whether they will share
[00:11:35] confidential information related to possible terrorist
[00:11:39] activities, the situation in Russia, in Iran, in
[00:11:42] China or some other countries,
[00:11:46] with German services, with German colleagues from the BNDD, when
[00:11:50] they are not sure whether that information will remain
[00:11:52] confidential within
[00:11:55] the BND structure, or whether it will perhaps be released to third
[00:11:59] countries, precisely the countries that are concerned about this information?
[00:12:02] Yes, the question was there, of course, before, but now it's pretty
[00:12:05] clear that there's a problem for allied services,
[00:12:09] not just for the German service itself, that their
[00:12:12] agents might also be compromised.
[00:12:15] Uh, another topic that is perhaps related in some way
[00:12:19] to this and to German institutions,
[00:12:23] uhm, the new, or relatively new, British Prime Minister
[00:12:27] yesterday stated that he had received
[00:12:30] confirmation from his intelligence services that Russia had indeed
[00:12:33] influenced that infamous Brexit referendum due to
[00:12:37] which the United Kingdom ultimately left
[00:12:41] the European Union. Uh, we can now
[00:12:44] perhaps connect this with another event from
[00:12:48] two days ago, Ukraine reportedly hit several
[00:12:51] facilities in Russia which were so-called troll
[00:12:55] farms, and a drop in traffic, a drop in
[00:12:58] support, a drop in discussion about, for example, Alternative für
[00:13:01] Deutschland in Germany in the last two days, their
[00:13:05] activity on social networks, liking
[00:13:07] statuses, and so on and so forth, now uh
[00:13:11] this Andy Brinham says this is
[00:13:14] important information for our allies, our friends
[00:13:18] in Germany and France who are going to
[00:13:22] elections soon and where some political
[00:13:25] changes are expected. Is this all that I have mentioned a topic in
[00:13:28] Germany? The attack on Russian
[00:13:31] troll farms leads to concrete and very visible
[00:13:34] political uh consequences or consequences for
[00:13:38] political communication, as well as this
[00:13:40] warning that came from London?
[00:13:43] It is current, of course, because it is actually nothing new, these are just some
[00:13:47] new indications, it is something that has been continuously developing in recent
[00:13:51] years, I remind you that a few years ago... there was a big story here in the European
[00:13:54] Union and here in Germany about possible
[00:13:58] activity of such troll farms that were located in
[00:14:01] North Macedonia and influenced the outcome
[00:14:05] or election activities in the United
[00:14:08] States. Uh, the links between the AfD and
[00:14:12] Russia are nothing new, there are documented
[00:14:16] analyses, reports, among other things, in the German press for
[00:14:19] years, that there are direct financial flows
[00:14:23] and, to put it mildly, support
[00:14:27] between Russia or Russian authorities, even high-ranking
[00:14:30] state institutions, among others, the AfD in Germany,
[00:14:34] and some other parties in the European Union, or rather
[00:14:38] in Europe. Now you mentioned Brexit, that is, the departure of the United Kingdom, at that time
[00:14:41] the United Kingdom was still in the European Union, whose
[00:14:45] goal was, of course, simplified, speaking, to weaken the European Union,
[00:14:49] Germany has long been perhaps the first to be
[00:14:52] targeted. Let's call it that, because Germany is
[00:14:56] defined as the largest country of the European Union, as the largest
[00:14:59] economy, the calculation is quite
[00:15:02] clear, just like in the times of the
[00:15:06] Cold War, if someone succeeds, of course, in
[00:15:09] quotation marks, that's at least how it's interpreted, to bring down Germany, then it will be easy
[00:15:12] to bring down all other countries of the European Union. Germany is
[00:15:16] particularly interesting in this context because it provides the greatest assistance to Ukrainians
[00:15:20] in Europe, both financial
[00:15:23] and political and military,
[00:15:26] of course, in that context we should also remember the very
[00:15:32] Leipzig airport when the authorities
[00:15:34] discovered a Russian drone, or drones, near the planes
[00:15:38] that were delivering aid to Ukraine, meaning a whole complex of these
[00:15:42] activities that leads to the fact that the authorities in Berlin, that is, the federal government,
[00:15:46] have actually been claiming for a long time that Germany is in some
[00:15:50] kind of uh conflict, or rather
[00:15:53] attacks, among other things, from Russia.
[00:15:56] Intelligence agencies, of course, work in all directions, surely European
[00:16:00] or American intelligence agencies work
[00:16:02] in the opposite direction, just as Russian ones work in this direction,
[00:16:06] this reminds us of an old uh
[00:16:09] good example to illustrate how far this can go, you mentioned
[00:16:13] it briefly in the announcement, but let's explain it to the viewers as well, because it's very
[00:16:16] interesting, it actually shows the extent of how far it can go,
[00:16:20] the biggest spy scandal in Germany's recent history, it's not
[00:16:24] this one with Hanning and the BND, but with Willy
[00:16:27] Brandt, that was the scandal that actually led, as you said, to Willy Brandt's
[00:16:31] resignation or withdrawal from the position of German Chancellor. Why did he leave?
[00:16:35] Because he took political responsibility
[00:16:38] in 1974 for the exposure
[00:16:42] of the Stasi spy Günter Guillaume, who was
[00:16:45] practically his personal assistant in the Chancellor's office in
[00:16:49] Bonn. Guillaume worked from 1972
[00:16:53] until 1974, when he was
[00:16:56] exposed. He worked in the Chancellor's office, he was a close
[00:17:00] associate of Willy Brandt, but his principal
[00:17:02] was the Stasi, East German, practically
[00:17:06] secret police. Yes, there are no shortages
[00:17:09] of such scandals in Germany,
[00:17:12] we will see how this one will ultimately end and in which direction
[00:17:15] it will go, just for the end, the last question, when it comes to
[00:17:19] Russia and Germany and how high
[00:17:23] and how far these connections go, and when it comes
[00:17:26] to former German Chancellors, Gerhard
[00:17:30] Schröder happily celebrated with Vladimir
[00:17:33] Putin, that is a scene that, of course, went around all of Germany,
[00:17:36] all of Europe, this is nothing new, we know that Schröder was also
[00:17:40] on the supervisory board of Gazprom and we know that this connection
[00:17:43] is extremely strong and we know how the current
[00:17:47] German Chancellor Friedrich
[00:17:49] Merz reacted to it.
[00:17:52] Well, he wasn't happy, let's put it that way. Germans,
[00:17:55] actually, when we look at it, and the reactions to this latest
[00:17:59] scene, meaning a happy Schröder with a perhaps
[00:18:02] less happy, but he certainly
[00:18:05] didn't dislike that Schröder was in his company with Vladimir Putin celebrating their
[00:18:09] birthday, precisely at a time when Russian missiles
[00:18:13] are practically killing dozens of Ukrainian civilians again,
[00:18:17] a difficult image to bear, especially for people in
[00:18:20] Germany who in recent years have
[00:18:23] advocated for a peaceful resolution of that conflict or at least in some
[00:18:27] way to freeze that conflict just so that civilians on
[00:18:31] both sides do not suffer and that the killing and those horrific attacks,
[00:18:34] especially on the civilian population, stop. Uh, the question
[00:18:38] of Schröder and his relationship with Russia and his
[00:18:41] activities is a saga that has been going on practically since
[00:18:44] the day after he left the Chancellor's office.
[00:18:48] We should not forget the fact that he, as a former Chancellor, is still
[00:18:51] uh financed by German
[00:18:54] taxpayers, as a former Chancellor he still receives
[00:18:58] certain compensations, let's say, which are not
[00:19:02] so small, on the other hand, uh he also
[00:19:05] earns well from.
[00:19:07] "Russia receives money, of course, from Moscow for his activities, especially in
[00:19:11] the energy sector and here he is actually called
[00:19:15] Vladimir Putin's most important lobbyist, many people actually would not
[00:19:19] perhaps mind it so much if uh
[00:19:22] Schröder, with such good connections and access to Vladimir
[00:19:25] Putin, would not use that influence in a productive
[00:19:29] way and in some way, whatever it may be, influence
[00:19:33] Vladimir Putin to, among other things, stop
[00:19:36] the killing. "Yes, we will, of course, follow all of this
[00:19:40] further, and we will soon see in the continuation of our
[00:19:43] show what is happening between Russia and Ukraine currently, with, of course,
[00:19:47] the mediation or without the mediation of the
[00:19:50] USA. Srećko, thank you in any case for being our
[00:19:53] guest this morning. Thank you for the invitation.
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[00:25:22] Good morning and welcome once again to a new day in the
[00:25:25] Zagreb studio of N1 Television, we will dedicate the next
[00:25:29] few minutes to the development of events between Ukraine and Russia,
[00:25:32] of course with the mediation, or somewhat
[00:25:36] shocking decisions of Donald Trump to lift
[00:25:38] the ramp, or to suspend sanctions against
[00:25:42] Russian energy sources let them go
[00:25:46] to the rest of the world. In the background of that decision is, of course...
[00:25:50] "the question of American mid-term elections, or
[00:25:53] so-called elections that come halfway through
[00:25:57] the term and where Trump and the Republicans are doing
[00:26:00] pretty badly, right? in a small part due to high
[00:26:04] inflation and high energy prices precisely in the
[00:26:08] USA. Now, what will that actually
[00:26:11] mean for geostrategic relations in
[00:26:14] the world, for the consequences for those same relations, what will
[00:26:18] of that oil that Russia sells end up
[00:26:21] financing attacks on Ukraine, what will
[00:26:25] go to Iran, what will go to China and so on and so
[00:26:28] forth, all of that is somewhere on the third or
[00:26:32] tenth place for Donald Trump, but high on
[00:26:35] his priorities, on the list of his priorities is
[00:26:39] the question of elections in Ukraine, that is, the intention to
[00:26:42] remove Vladimir Zelensky. We will talk about all of this
[00:26:46] soon with our guest, but before that let's hear what Zelensky himself
[00:26:49] had to say based on this latest
[00:26:53] development of events, that is, based on the fact that Donald
[00:26:57] Trump announced that an infrastructural agreement
[00:27:01] has been reached.
[00:27:19] there is a statement from the President of the United States that an energy
[00:27:23] ceasefire has been achieved. This
[00:27:26] is good news for everyone. It is important that
[00:27:29] this becomes part of reality.
[00:27:32] Ukraine is ready not to strike Russian
[00:27:36] energy, and we expect
[00:27:39] similar readiness
[00:27:41] from Russia. We welcome such an agreement. Unfortunately, throughout the whole day
[00:27:45] today there were Russian Shaheds in the sky, now
[00:27:48] there are also Shaheds in the sky, and there were strikes, unfortunately,
[00:27:51] of air bombs, and there were strikes on our
[00:27:55] energy infrastructure. Let's go now to Kyiv to
[00:27:59] our guest, so... Professor Maksym Kamenyetsky from the Institute of
[00:28:02] International Relations in Kyiv. Professor, good day to you and welcome to our
[00:28:06] program.
[00:28:10] Good day to you and your
[00:28:13] viewers. Let's start by first
[00:28:17] seeing if this ceasefire mentioned
[00:28:20] by Donald Trump was really respected, meaning
[00:28:23] no attacks on energy infrastructure
[00:28:26] either in Russia or in
[00:28:28] Ukraine.
[00:28:31] Uh... for me, it's a bit strange, uh
[00:28:35] what Trump said, actually he didn't mention
[00:28:38] any
[00:28:41] Russian statements regarding that, because that's the
[00:28:45] main, main thing, whether
[00:28:48] Russia accepted what Trump said, that's where
[00:28:52] I have the biggest doubt, the biggest doubts, because from
[00:28:56] the Russian side, what I heard last
[00:28:59] night was that Russia would consider it. Only
[00:29:02] about uh such, about such
[00:29:05] things, however, what they did last night already
[00:29:09] after this statement by Trump they hit several
[00:29:12] places, as far as Kharkiv is concerned,
[00:29:15] uh, they hit one
[00:29:19] power plant that, that there, I don't know,
[00:29:23] I mean, I'm in Kyiv, but in Kyiv they
[00:29:25] hit one, one
[00:29:29] part of this electrical system of the city,
[00:29:33] which is responsible for supplying
[00:29:37] apartments for approximately hundreds of thousands of Kyiv residents
[00:29:40] and somewhere around half
[00:29:43] of Kyiv's supply
[00:29:47] of water pumps that
[00:29:49] supply residential buildings with hot and
[00:29:52] cold water after this strike, about
[00:29:56] a hundred Kyiv residents were left without electricity and
[00:29:59] half of the city of Kyiv. until
[00:30:03] overnight it was without any water, that was already
[00:30:07] after, after this statement by Trump about
[00:30:10] the energy ceasefire, so
[00:30:13] for me it's a bit
[00:30:17] premature or something he said, it's
[00:30:20] most likely, as it often happened, it's
[00:30:24] a wish of Trump to believe that he achieved
[00:30:27] some agreement, that is, Ukraine and Russia
[00:30:30] certainly didn't achieve anything because there
[00:30:34] were no such bilateral
[00:30:37] agreements, it's something that was most likely at the level
[00:30:41] between Ukraine, USA,
[00:30:44] USA, Russia, but Russia has not yet confirmed
[00:30:47] that it has really stopped with or is ready
[00:30:50] for these strikes and
[00:30:53] a very important thing, uh
[00:30:56] there is no, no
[00:30:59] presentation.