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20261105 083000 UTC
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[00:00:00] that the presiding officer should continue the session, then he gave up
[00:00:03] on that. Yesterday, we didn't see anyone trying to
[00:00:07] protect the integrity of a body like REM
[00:00:10] by not allowing Vučićević to behave that way at that session. It
[00:00:14] was scandalous, and it was certainly one of
[00:00:17] the targeted functions of yesterday's gathering and
[00:00:20] his arrival and entry into that hall and so on. But how much does that speak
[00:00:24] about the delicacy of making
[00:00:28] such decisions at a time when... We also have that gathering. Does it seem to you that
[00:00:31] it was instrumentalized, i.e., that
[00:00:35] yesterday's REM session was instrumentalized by
[00:00:39] supporters of the Serbian Progressive Party for some
[00:00:42] agenda of theirs at this moment? No, what it seems
[00:00:45] to me is that people are shocked because the law is being applied, so the law
[00:00:49] on electronic media is being applied. It should have been
[00:00:52] applied long ago, ever since the law
[00:00:55] on electronic media was passed. It really has precise provisions about what
[00:00:59] ORO also talked about, what measures from a warning to
[00:01:03] a temporary imposition of a certain measure to
[00:01:06] the license. The REM
[00:01:10] Council, which for a very long decade was
[00:01:13] blocked, was not constructive. There were
[00:01:16] some individual measures taken, but the REM Council
[00:01:19] which at that time was chaired by Olivera Zekić could also
[00:01:23] have taken a lot of
[00:01:26] measures to prevent what we
[00:01:30] have come to today. So we have here a media owner who
[00:01:33] complains that this is the most scandalous and most difficult measure.
[00:01:37] In fact, it is on that scale of one to five, at level three. So
[00:01:41] you couldn't immediately go to revoking the license. A larger
[00:01:44] institution, like SAVEMA, could only
[00:01:47] decide that way. And the issue of instrumentalization here
[00:01:51] refers more to political instrumentalization, not
[00:01:54] only of that television, but
[00:01:57] many other tabloid media and televisions that for years here
[00:01:59] supported the government, who were spokespersons
[00:02:03] for the government, who served in their time for a kind of showdown with
[00:02:07] many dissenters, for targeting, for
[00:02:10] examining various conspiracy theories, for examining
[00:02:14] various political topics and for somewhere
[00:02:17] maintaining the political spectrum in the sense that
[00:02:20] you have such a television or such a tabloid in
[00:02:24] which you have the most severe
[00:02:27] insults, which from the front pages or from... from those
[00:02:30] headlines or from those broadcasts propagates hate speech,
[00:02:34] slanders people, labels them and so on, so that the government in
[00:02:37] that case would appear as a factor of stability, as
[00:02:41] someone who rises above it, who says, "Wait, we will now
[00:02:44] stabilize," and so on. How many times have we heard from such televisions
[00:02:48] that a civil war is starting, that the constitutional order is being overthrown, that these are
[00:02:51] haters, that these are traitors? Of course, over the years
[00:02:55] it was completely logical that a very large
[00:02:58] number of citizens and various organizations would file
[00:03:01] complaints against the violation of their own dignity
[00:03:05] or their own personal integrity. So
[00:03:08] it is an accumulation of inaction, an accumulation
[00:03:12] of unresolved issues for which the previous REM
[00:03:16] Council was primarily responsible. We have come to
[00:03:20] this situation where you now have a completely
[00:03:23] swollen performance, a
[00:03:26] practically reality program that is happening in front of the building
[00:03:30] but if if the REM Council uh the previous
[00:03:34] convocation is responsible for what you are saying, for ignoring
[00:03:37] for many years those piles of uh uh
[00:03:40] hundreds of code violations and complaints, now the same
[00:03:43] body uh in the same composition, which is incomplete,
[00:03:47] incompletely uh before the elections during the pre-election
[00:03:51] campaign, does not have a majority to make a decision that that
[00:03:54] Informer television uh be monitored during the pre-election
[00:03:58] campaign and after the elections has a majority to make such measures,
[00:04:02] how do you view that moment of awakening and
[00:04:06] applying the law, as you began, that's right, so first, just to
[00:04:09] correct, the body is not in the same composition, it cannot be in the same
[00:04:12] composition uh by uh the people who
[00:04:16] sit there, but it was very concerning to me that in the same
[00:04:20] sense, immediately before the elections and now, the same eight, the same eight
[00:04:23] members did not make a majority decision to
[00:04:26] silence, now it has a majority decision to.
[00:04:30] That's right, the question arises, what would that monitoring of Informer
[00:04:34] have revealed and are there capacities for it or not? I listened to
[00:04:37] the president of the REM Council, this REM Council, who says that the expert
[00:04:41] service does not have the capacities to include Informer in the monitoring
[00:04:44] of the pre-election campaign, because if it did, then some things
[00:04:48] could have been alarmed, marked red, then it might have been
[00:04:51] said that this cannot be, this is a violation of the rules
[00:04:55] of pre-election behavior, because there is certainly
[00:05:00] political culture." a medium on an expert service for monitoring the work of broadcasters which has a mandate for that, and it was
[00:05:04] very problematic for me because the vote was then four to four,
[00:05:07] it was clear to you that people did not want to vote for Informer to be
[00:05:11] put under some kind of supervision, not only that
[00:05:14] television, but many other televisions for which there was a need
[00:05:18] to be supervised in their own way during
[00:05:22] the campaign. Then also from that
[00:05:24] institution which really cannot say that it is independent,
[00:05:28] a statement appears that no one signed, that no one
[00:05:32] saw, allegedly everyone washed their hands of it in the end and said,
[00:05:35] "No, we have no idea who wrote this." That is the statement in which N1 and Nova violate
[00:05:39] the pre-election silence, first on what basis and on the basis of whose
[00:05:43] analysis. So here we are talking about a captivity,
[00:05:46] not only of the media space, but of the captivity of institutions
[00:05:50] which the government, now the outgoing government, has
[00:05:53] set up so that it simply has the entire media sector under control by
[00:05:57] controlling independent institutions, and what we are seeing today
[00:06:01] is actually the result of that captivity and
[00:06:05] such an attitude towards the media, that everything could be
[00:06:08] talked about, except for a free media space, about freedom of the media as
[00:06:12] such. Let's omit to comment
[00:06:15] on what we saw, and that is somewhere a question for both of you. On the one
[00:06:18] hand, what we hear from
[00:06:21] representatives of the outgoing government and from people from
[00:06:25] Informer, how someone is allegedly forbidding them free speech,
[00:06:28] free thought. On the other hand, that
[00:06:32] defense of Informer is happening from that
[00:06:35] screen, but also physically, so
[00:06:38] in front of the REM offices where we
[00:06:41] had an attack on our journalist. So
[00:06:44] the story about the alleged prohibition of freedom, our
[00:06:48] journalist Anđela Čolanić could not finish her report because of
[00:06:52] the interference caused by people. It was indeed an attack
[00:06:56] also on Rodoljub Šabić as a member
[00:06:59] of the REM Council. How far
[00:07:02] does that defense of Informer
[00:07:05] go and why was it necessary to harness that entire
[00:07:10] machinery, including that
[00:07:13] gathering? Well, I think the biggest news from
[00:07:17] that event is that verbal attack on
[00:07:20] Mr. Šabić and
[00:07:22] the obstruction, which is a kind of attack on your
[00:07:26] journalist, because that actually shows what the
[00:07:30] essence of that politics and that
[00:07:33] political performance they organized yesterday is. Those
[00:07:37] people who obstructed your journalist are actually
[00:07:40] victims of this propaganda that Informer
[00:07:43] has been sowing for years, propaganda that affirms hatred,
[00:07:47] that makes people feel that they can
[00:07:50] just obstruct someone who is doing their job, first of all, and second
[00:07:53] that they obstruct journalists
[00:07:57] in spreading news who work
[00:08:00] in a professional manner, that they are completely comfortable that
[00:08:04] they saw who was targeted and that it needs to be attacked. That is the
[00:08:08] atmosphere of lynching and attack that they organize, as well
[00:08:12] as that staged attack on Informer for which it was very quickly
[00:08:15] clear who organized it and what its goal was. And
[00:08:19] that's why it's good that citizens actually don't fall for it, because now that
[00:08:22] it didn't work for them and what happened with Pink, now they have
[00:08:26] organized an attack on REM, they brought
[00:08:29] several loyalists, they brought all their
[00:08:33] top people, the first lineup, only Vučić was missing to appear
[00:08:36] there. That actually shows what message they
[00:08:40] want to send. Uh... "This is part of a broader
[00:08:44] political picture. I will quickly return to REM and
[00:08:47] Informer, but uh the way the government
[00:08:51] is behaving now, it looks like when the Germans were retreating from Belgrade
[00:08:54] in '44, everywhere you go, a landmine. So
[00:08:58] now you have to work very carefully with that, not to fall for their
[00:09:01] provocations, because they no longer actually have
[00:09:04] control over everything, it's falling apart on all sides, that's
[00:09:07] clear, with the fact that now they are offering a little finger so as not to give
[00:09:11] a hand, because this punishment yesterday, when it was pronounced, it's strange
[00:09:14] that all eight vote
[00:09:17] unanimously. The best way actually, this
[00:09:21] member of the council Garić,
[00:09:23] perhaps unconsciously explained what it is that they did. When he spoke at
[00:09:27] the beginning, he first told Vučićević that they had gone a little
[00:09:31] too far. In fact, it ended with him mentioning
[00:09:34] N1, Nova and so on, which are not
[00:09:37] the subject of discussion on that agenda item, and from that it
[00:09:41] can be seen what their... "this trouble and what really hurts them,
[00:09:44] and that's why I don't believe that they will go all the way with
[00:09:48] Informer, let REM fall apart
[00:09:52] rather than impose a ban where they will prohibit
[00:09:55] Informer. This is in a symbolic sense,
[00:09:58] because Informer can continue to broadcast its program
[00:10:02] through, for example, a YouTube channel or in other ways. They
[00:10:06] want to demonstrate here that they do not give up
[00:10:09] first the symbol of their
[00:10:13] which anyone can say whatever they want, attack whoever
[00:10:16] they want, because not only according to the Law on Electronic Media but also according to some
[00:10:20] other laws, you have freedom of speech, but only to the
[00:10:23] extent that you do not endanger someone else. It is precisely defined what
[00:10:27] you are not allowed to say, and they say it as if it's nothing. Then
[00:10:31] when you criticize it, they say you are introducing censorship or
[00:10:35] you want to restrict freedom of public speech. You can speak
[00:10:38] publicly, but you cannot say just anything, and that is precisely what
[00:10:42] REM is for, to set some rules for how to
[00:10:45] behave. And also, this was supposed to be some
[00:10:49] demonstration of their power. They want to increase
[00:10:53] the homogenization among their loyalists.
[00:10:55] They managed to bring them there, how many, 100, 200, it doesn't matter,
[00:10:59] that's nothing, but they can be dangerous.
[00:11:02] And what they started with Mr. Šabić
[00:11:06] after that is actually a true picture of what
[00:11:09] would happen if they could spread their wings. I
[00:11:13] hope they will be erased from
[00:11:16] the history of Serbia from the political scene, so that we will no longer have to watch
[00:11:19] such scenes. It is a shame for all these leading people
[00:11:23] from the SNS who came yesterday...
[00:11:26] came, and the woman who is the acting president of the republic came
[00:11:29] to such a gathering to make some statements to further
[00:11:33] provoke such an atmosphere. Aleksandra, let me add to those
[00:11:36] scenes we saw outside, so
[00:11:39] the effects of that reporting under
[00:11:43] the guise of alleged
[00:11:45] freedom of speech, so it's clear to us here that we can
[00:11:49] call things by their real name, what is journalistic
[00:11:53] work, what is not journalistic work.
[00:11:55] "But still, if we take into account those effects, one million and
[00:11:58] seven hundred thousand people still voted for the Serbian
[00:12:02] Progressive Party. So how do we
[00:12:05] remedy the consequences of what we had in the media
[00:12:08] space, so vulgar expression, and
[00:12:12] targeting people, hate speech, so everything that is
[00:12:15] unacceptable in the public space, which
[00:12:18] for some population has been normalized as
[00:12:22] media, as journalism." How
[00:12:25] to remedy those consequences? Well, that is a really difficult question and it will take
[00:12:29] years, it's not a job that can be done overnight,
[00:12:33] and here we are not just talking about remedying the terrible effects
[00:12:36] and consequences that such hate speech from these tabloid televisions, many
[00:12:40] tabloid media, causes and propagates for years, but also
[00:12:44] the question of returning journalism to the media.
[00:12:48] So you have many propagandistic
[00:12:51] propaganda organs and propagandists who are not journalists among
[00:12:55] people who are some self-proclaimed analysts who
[00:12:58] only serve to support the government, in this sense
[00:13:02] the outgoing government, that
[00:13:05] the government of the Serbian Progressive Party
[00:13:08] missed an opportunity to truly
[00:13:11] democratically regulate the media space. We had
[00:13:15] great chances to deal with
[00:13:17] that, but unfortunately that chance was missed, and when you talk
[00:13:21] about the performance of the president Ana Brnabić yesterday
[00:13:25] uh... "I remember her first exposé when she became
[00:13:28] prime minister, when it was her first mandate in that
[00:13:32] exposé in that first period of 2017.
[00:13:36] she advocated for media freedom, she said that
[00:13:39] a lot would be invested in the media
[00:13:42] industry, issues of digitalization, gaming and so
[00:13:45] on, I don't know if you remember that, but it actually very quickly became
[00:13:48] clear once Serbia received the first assessments of the terrible
[00:13:52] violation of media freedom from internationally recognized..." institutions, the government
[00:13:56] began to ignore such assessments. That government continued to
[00:13:59] ignore all assessments of the violation of media freedom,
[00:14:02] the targeting of independent journalists, and so on. So you had a
[00:14:06] government that on the one hand ignored it, and on the other hand did everything to
[00:14:09] spin it so that in the end, now, what we saw yesterday,
[00:14:13] presented media freedom from a completely different, spun
[00:14:17] architecture
[00:14:19] which, which cannot, should not be freedom of the media, hate speech is not
[00:14:23] freedom of the media. This is what uh uh and the professor
[00:14:26] said in that sense, you cannot
[00:14:29] speak or act if it endangers the security and integrity of someone
[00:14:33] else, if it endangers the dignity of a person. All European
[00:14:36] conventions, United Nations
[00:14:40] conventions on human rights and so on, speak about this. We had numerous
[00:14:43] shortcomings in our laws. Of course, on the other hand, you cannot have
[00:14:46] in one program, freedom of speech or freedom
[00:14:50] of the media cannot be considered the display of explicit photographs of my
[00:14:54] female students or the targeting when female students'
[00:14:58] faces are put on screen and it is said she is whatever,
[00:15:02] and then all the worst insults and worst words are spoken just
[00:15:05] because someone is a female student who supported the protest and so on. How many
[00:15:09] times have people in this public life been crucified in
[00:15:13] such shows? But what is a much bigger problem here is
[00:15:16] impunity and simply the absence of law enforcement
[00:15:19] in all the past years, which is why such media
[00:15:22] were allowed to operate completely freely, unpunished,
[00:15:26] because no sanction was imposed
[00:15:29] except through private lawsuits when such televisions can be ordered
[00:15:33] to pay 100,000-200,000 dinars for,
[00:15:36] for example, in such a court procedure. But excuse me,
[00:15:39] now we have seen that 100,000-200,000 dinars is nothing for such media that
[00:15:43] receive monthly pumped-in money from Telekom and from the state,
[00:15:47] factually at some completely unbelievable levels,
[00:15:51] some abstract figures that we as citizens of Serbia cannot. Now, do
[00:15:55] we then come to the point where, uh, if we know that
[00:15:58] the financing of such media often went through additional financing from
[00:16:01] public funds through public procurement, local
[00:16:05] tenders, and even state enterprises. There is that
[00:16:08] economic model where any kind of punishment
[00:16:11] is simply irrelevant and can only
[00:16:14] serve as a piece of paper that says that some
[00:16:17] kind of law is being respected,
[00:16:21] but uh the financial effects are much greater and the political
[00:16:25] effects. Do you see any signs now of changing that
[00:16:28] practice, uh breaking up? Then some
[00:16:31] kind of market would actually
[00:16:34] regulate what perhaps the council. "cannot and
[00:16:38] should not. I think it's too early, I don't see any signs of that,
[00:16:41] because REM should be doing many other things to
[00:16:44] regulate the entire scene. You know that
[00:16:48] we actually had two waves of privatization
[00:16:52] of local media which led to the fact that they are all now
[00:16:55] concentrated under
[00:16:58] practically one paw or let's say two, and
[00:17:02] that it is clear that in
[00:17:05] fact the media..." "function of those
[00:17:09] outlets has been lost, it is weakened. I don't know
[00:17:13] what it's for at all. Many of these small media are highly
[00:17:17] dependent on the small amount of funds they receive in some tenders and
[00:17:20] then they are blackmailed and similar. This actually
[00:17:24] fundamentally endangers free
[00:17:27] journalism, journalism as a profession, and this should be
[00:17:30] dealt with seriously, although it is also necessary
[00:17:33] to review the total number of these media that."
[00:17:37] exist. As I have said many times, we need to re-examine whether we
[00:17:41] actually need five national frequencies for
[00:17:45] electronic media. There is a lot of work there. I, I
[00:17:48] certainly leave it to my colleague to give more
[00:17:52] grounded judgments on that because it is not, it is not my field, but
[00:17:55] politically speaking, that requires
[00:17:59] fundamental reform, a change in REM's own approach.
[00:18:02] It is not the main player in all of this, but it can of course take care
[00:18:06] primarily of programs, these status issues, whether someone meets all
[00:18:10] the conditions to even exist as a media outlet, not to
[00:18:13] mention how many radio stations there are and so on. There
[00:18:16] is a lot of work, because usually in the media you see these
[00:18:20] key things that are politically effective, and
[00:18:23] actually, every SAVEMA at every session processes
[00:18:27] a bunch of other issues that really concern the status,
[00:18:30] work, functioning, and survival of small media. We
[00:18:33] need to preserve and revive, it seems
[00:18:37] to me, the local media scene. It is very
[00:18:40] important for citizens, for their local issues, because
[00:18:44] these national media cannot deal with all that is
[00:18:47] important for their daily lives, so that should not be overshadowed
[00:18:51] by such events. And, well, another function of what
[00:18:54] Informer did yesterday is to push those things into the shadows.
[00:18:58] Imagine that you have to deal with some Vučićević there where in fact
[00:19:02] we have economic problems, infrastructure problems, health
[00:19:06] problems. We are dealing with what he says and does. I think
[00:19:09] we can only briefly answer, so both of them, at
[00:19:12] the beginning of the story,
[00:19:16] a quick question: why is Informer important to Vučić at this moment
[00:19:19] of interregnum, at this moment I would say for damage
[00:19:22] control? Uh, the student list won by over
[00:19:26] 600,000 votes, uh, in relation
[00:19:29] to the Serbian Progressive Party, that is a truly enormous
[00:19:32] difference. This is now damage control, just as it was necessary to
[00:19:35] maintain that... that government narrative
[00:19:39] and for various, I mean, it was a classic political
[00:19:43] instrumentalization of a media outlet, or a propaganda organ,
[00:19:46] to test various things and to control the narrative in that
[00:19:50] sense. And now it is truly necessary because
[00:19:52] for the former government, now we see from these
[00:19:55] various events in recent days, it is that
[00:19:59] in order to control the damage and, it seems
[00:20:02] to me, to protect Vučić, that is actually the most important brand, it is
[00:20:06] him, so personally, by name and surname in that sense. That is why such
[00:20:09] a media outlet is needed to continue to
[00:20:12] propagate everything that the former government itself did
[00:20:16] earlier, because now, we have seen, the media
[00:20:20] space has narrowed. Many of these televisions with national frequency have
[00:20:23] very quickly, very easily changed their
[00:20:26] angle. Very quickly they either shut down their news program, like
[00:20:30] B92, or they, like Prva, I don't know, started
[00:20:34] broadcasting now, I don't know, everything about the student list. You have RTS.
[00:20:38] "Their website and the news that is now completely different. I think that people who watch
[00:20:41] RTS wonder what BIRN is, I mean,
[00:20:45] and so on. On the other hand, I must say that for me the most important
[00:20:49] story which..." "When we look at the control of everything, the wiretapping
[00:20:52] of journalists, radars and mass wiretapping
[00:20:55] of people, which we are only now seeing is opening up, it raises
[00:20:59] the question of the extent to which digital authoritarianism in Serbia, besides
[00:21:02] this political authoritarianism, went
[00:21:05] in parallel as a huge lever of power to control
[00:21:09] the entire media space, to intimidate journalists and
[00:21:13] especially investigative stories to be pushed aside so that you come to this, that
[00:21:16] now actually on the same day we have a story about..."
[00:21:20] uh that blockade in front of REM, i.e., about that protest in front of
[00:21:23] REM, at the same time on the day when we have a story about mass
[00:21:27] wiretapping of citizens, that is the main thing for me, excuse me, no,
[00:21:31] we don't have much time, professor, just briefly, why is Informer important
[00:21:34] to Vučić? Well, I've already said a few things. You said at
[00:21:38] one point his 1,700,000 votes. I
[00:21:42] think we will very soon know how many votes he actually had in the elections,
[00:21:46] because I believe that a good part of that was stolen. He
[00:21:49] now needs to stop the erosion, he is buying
[00:21:52] time, because they are now trying to cover up the traces
[00:21:56] that will lead to indictments. You saw that
[00:22:00] arrests have already started. I think this is still just
[00:22:03] scratching the surface, but now this group
[00:22:07] and Žmirić were arrested, my party
[00:22:10] Serbia Centre filed a lawsuit on August 25 and all those eight
[00:22:13] names are now, so completely what we sued for is
[00:22:17] covered by this arrest. Plus
[00:22:20] Žmirić, this
[00:22:24] they preserve, they maintain that culture of violence which
[00:22:28] they constantly nurture, and I expect the radicals will continue to do so even when they are in
[00:22:32] opposition, that is their manner, that is their culture, everything, so
[00:22:36] it was all combined in that move that was
[00:22:39] made yesterday. That's why it's important to him, but I think it's important for him to
[00:22:43] maintain homogeneity among loyalists, because he will need a group
[00:22:46] of people he can bring out into the street to protect some
[00:22:50] misdeeds, and he is buying time, because
[00:22:53] they are now covering up everything they did. These manipulated,
[00:22:57] instrumentalized people
[00:23:00] don't know that they are actually serving so that tomorrow they will be discarded,
[00:23:03] as Vučić usually does. Thank
[00:23:07] you very much for this conversation, this was our topic
[00:23:10] this morning. Our guests were professors Aleksandra Krstić and Slobodan
[00:23:14] Cvejić. Stay with Novi Dan, we will be back soon with new stories after the
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[00:29:13] precautions, adverse reactions to the medicine, consult a doctor or pharmacist. You are watching a new day. Parents
[00:29:28] of students of Jovan Gymnasium Zmaj in Novi Sad
[00:29:32] announced that today at 10 o'clock they will come before the
[00:29:36] Ministry of Education in Belgrade, demanding
[00:29:39] the immediate dismissal of the director of that school, Radivoj
[00:29:42] Stojković, whom the court prohibited from entering the
[00:29:45] gymnasium and approaching certain professors.
[00:29:49] If Minister Dejan Vuk Stanković does not act on their request,
[00:29:52] they will file a criminal complaint against him. In front of the Ministry
[00:29:56] of Education is N1 reporter Anđela
[00:29:59] Čolanić, Anđela. "It's 10
[00:30:03] o'clock, what do the parents specifically demand from the Ministry of Education and what will
[00:30:06] they do if the minister does not dismiss the director
[00:30:08] of the gymnasium?
[00:30:11] That's right, Milan, it's 10 o'clock, a delegation of parents
[00:30:14] of Jovina Gymnasium came to the door of
[00:30:18] the Minister of Education, they demand
[00:30:21] the dismissal of director Radivoj Stojković,
[00:30:25] they gave the minister 48 hours previously to do so, given that
[00:30:29] they did not receive an answer from the minister..." they will repeat these demands, we
[00:30:32] will talk about it in more detail with Jelena Kovačević
[00:30:36] Vorgučin, she is the mother of one of the students of this
[00:30:39] gymnasium, so we are again following the situation with Jovina
[00:30:42] gymnasium, uh, what is currently happening and first let's say what
[00:30:46] are the demands that you address to the Minister
[00:30:50] of Education? Good day and thank you for following this
[00:30:52] situation at the gymnasium, so we are not here for the first time to...
[00:30:56] situaciju na gimnaziji, dakle mi nismo prvi put ovde da...