N1SRP — broadcast
20261105 190000 UTC
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[00:00:15] Arrests of top police chiefs, leaders of state
[00:00:18] institutions, businessmen close to the former government, controversial
[00:00:22] pardons, and finally wiretapping and surveillance
[00:00:25] of journalists, prosecutors. This is what Serbia looks like ten days
[00:00:28] after the elections. the defeat of the progressives, what we
[00:00:32] lived through for the last 14 years, is all this just the tip
[00:00:35] of the iceberg, why are we only now witnessing the reactions
[00:00:39] of the prosecutor's office and the police, and how to get to institutions that will
[00:00:43] work regardless of who is at Andrić's Wreath, i.e., in
[00:00:46] the presidency, who is in the government of Serbia, i.e., in
[00:00:50] Nemanjina. I am Ivan Momčilović Odobašić, N1
[00:00:53] direct begins.
[00:01:01] "Judge Miodrag Majić, prosecutor Vukašin Vujčić, former
[00:01:04] head of the department for secret surveillance and monitoring, and now lawyer Milenko
[00:01:08] Zarić, they are guests of N1, good evening and thank
[00:01:12] you all for being here. Mr. Zarić, I would start with
[00:01:15] you, so you were
[00:01:18] at one time the head of the department for
[00:01:21] secret monitoring and surveillance, uh,
[00:01:24] these documents were published two days ago by Radar, which
[00:01:27] document..." the extent
[00:01:31] of wiretapping, probably just the tip
[00:01:34] of the iceberg, but we learn that
[00:01:37] they not only wiretapped, but physically followed journalists, that they
[00:01:41] bugged their apartments, uh, the prosecutor for
[00:01:45] organized crime in the case of canopies, how did we
[00:01:49] get into a situation where journalists, investigative
[00:01:52] journalists, prosecutors who should defend the public
[00:01:56] interest, became enemies of the state, i.e...
[00:02:00] uh spies who should be wiretapped and
[00:02:04] followed in that way, well, I simply think that the political power
[00:02:08] at one point really wanted to use all
[00:02:12] the resources of the security sector and the police
[00:02:15] in order to still maintain
[00:02:19] power and help
[00:02:22] themselves, first of all, in that sense, for me, it's only
[00:02:25] surprising that it was so massive, considering that it
[00:02:29] is a sensitive measure that is quite
[00:02:33] invasive, but that it was used
[00:02:36] so massively, and that is a surprise for
[00:02:38] me. And the state
[00:02:42] of crime in society and what we have now speaks for itself, that there was no room
[00:02:46] or resources for anyone to deal with
[00:02:49] what is the main activity,
[00:02:52] as we say, of the security service in terms of combating organized crime
[00:02:56] and also of the police in suppressing crime. So, in
[00:03:00] particular, when the student
[00:03:04] protest started and that movement and so on, of course, they
[00:03:08] were the first to be targeted, and thus journalists
[00:03:11] were targeted, journalists as someone who is in a way
[00:03:14] a control of power who should
[00:03:18] by asking questions and investigating what is not
[00:03:21] talked about, inform the public, they found
[00:03:24] themselves under the attack of these measures of secret
[00:03:27] surveillance, communication and tracking. What is characteristic
[00:03:30] here is that,
[00:03:33] specifically in Radar, the full scope
[00:03:37] of measures, the full scope of measures, was applied. Please explain that to us, how many people participate, so you
[00:03:40] worked for about ten years, you were the
[00:03:43] head of the department for secret surveillance and
[00:03:47] tracking, please explain to us how that looks in practice, how many people
[00:03:51] are needed for that, how did they get into their apartments
[00:03:55] to install listening devices
[00:03:58] there. So, how does that look in practice,
[00:04:01] it's probably even more, I worked until
[00:04:04] 2013, so that job, after that I was a lawyer,
[00:04:08] but I believe that now technology has gone much further,
[00:04:12] very easy, yes, it's very easy to
[00:04:15] get to that, but it's interesting here that it requires
[00:04:19] quite serious engagement of both personnel and
[00:04:22] technology, analytics, processing,
[00:04:25] uh uh, so you had surveillance, communication, phone,
[00:04:30] all other, all other communications, by all other technical
[00:04:33] means, what is interesting is that you had surveillance of
[00:04:37] open spaces, closed rooms where access is
[00:04:40] restricted, you had physical surveillance,
[00:04:43] physical surveillance is precisely undertaken so that you can further
[00:04:46] apply technical means in open or closed spaces,
[00:04:50] so they were certainly not wiretapped only in
[00:04:54] Radar or students in the amphitheater, which is an
[00:04:57] incredible exception that...
[00:05:00] It didn't happen that an amphitheater
[00:05:02] of a university was bugged
[00:05:06] for reasons that these uh those
[00:05:09] children are the greatest butchers of the Second World War,
[00:05:13] they call them Ustaše, for that reason as the greatest state
[00:05:16] enemies, devices are installed there that massively
[00:05:20] control, this controls access, what
[00:05:23] they talk about, who comes, where they meet, when they meet and so
[00:05:27] on, so here in Radar it's interesting that, uh,
[00:05:31] you know, when you want to uh specifically follow
[00:05:34] someone, you want to know everything about them, you can do that, but the problem
[00:05:38] is that here you learn all that
[00:05:41] about others. who are not covered absolutely
[00:05:45] by that uh measure of surveillance or court order, how the court order
[00:05:48] was given, possibly, I believe, the director said that
[00:05:52] they had a legal one, so they had an order,
[00:05:56] the question is who initiated it, for what reason, with what
[00:05:59] facts, who approved it further
[00:06:03] in the service, who in the end, did the court have full
[00:06:06] information about what was being done, is it true that, for example,
[00:06:09] the phone numbers were precisely the phone numbers they used, or are there some
[00:06:13] numbers of people who have nothing to do with that case, what does
[00:06:17] that mean, is it possible that something was planted, is it certain that there is a possibility
[00:06:20] you see, it's impossible if you have, let's say,
[00:06:24] malicious approach, there was certainly a lot
[00:06:28] of abuse here, certainly the most
[00:06:31] here the law was formally needed only to cover the proceedings, everything else
[00:06:35] probably exceeded the limits of authority or
[00:06:38] what should be done and here we had
[00:06:41] Radar, so... there is uh an editor, two
[00:06:44] journalists, but I believe that the whole editorial staff
[00:06:47] absolutely everything was followed, when the
[00:06:50] journalists left, they had to go to some uh, let's
[00:06:53] say to the one who gives them information, uh,
[00:06:57] all that was followed in their daily lives, that's right, working, so
[00:07:01] their job, working their job of, let's say, journalistic
[00:07:04] work, the service considered that as
[00:07:07] jeopardizing national security, state
[00:07:11] security, so it was necessary to monitor journalists, as
[00:07:15] it is necessary, let's ask Mr. Majić, I mean, you are in
[00:07:18] the appellate court, not in the one that would approve such cases,
[00:07:22] but you have judicial experience for so many
[00:07:25] years, uh, how can a judge
[00:07:29] approve such a
[00:07:32] request, right?
[00:07:35] Now, as it was said earlier, it would be necessary to see what those
[00:07:39] requests looked like, what was written
[00:07:42] in them, of course, one should not exclude the possibility that something
[00:07:46] was misrepresented, but on the other hand,
[00:07:50] one should not uh be too
[00:07:53] naive, we lived in a society where at all key positions
[00:07:57] loyalists of the previous government were brought in,
[00:08:00] so in the judiciary, so in the courts,
[00:08:04] prosecutor's office, there was absolutely no
[00:08:07] chance that at the position of court president, at the position
[00:08:10] of prosecutor, at the position of someone who would decide, especially in such
[00:08:13] measures, anyone would appear who was not thoroughly vetted by
[00:08:17] that government, for whom it was not said there, yes,
[00:08:21] that one is ours, he is guaranteed, so, I'm not saying this for the
[00:08:25] first time today, we've been saying it for the previous 14
[00:08:28] years, that's why it's not surprising this, at least not to me, I believe not to others
[00:08:32] exactly what we talked about in those previous 14 years,
[00:08:35] we few who said something about it, here, as you
[00:08:39] saw, as soon as the government changes, suddenly now...
[00:08:42] "it becomes clear who the suspects are and
[00:08:45] scandals surface, as if nothing was known about it, of course it
[00:08:49] was known, those same people who served to approve
[00:08:52] such measures, to persecute people in the prosecutor's office who were
[00:08:56] on the opposite side, those were, well, they were
[00:09:00] there to hold back these cases that today
[00:09:04] we see, so that nothing of that comes out to the public, that
[00:09:07] it doesn't appear in the procedure and so on, of course
[00:09:11] with..." Every day there will be more and more of those
[00:09:14] who will claim that all those years they knew they
[00:09:18] had no opportunity to work because of this, this, this and that,
[00:09:22] this one who, well, woke up, which is the best
[00:09:26] proof of what we claimed, that we were absolutely
[00:09:29] a captured state, a state captured by
[00:09:33] an organized criminal group that, well,
[00:09:36] ruled in this area, all the elements, I was on
[00:09:40] Friday, in the impression of the week, two days before... Bore said that we really,
[00:09:43] in the mildest judicial terms, have
[00:09:46] a reasonable suspicion that an organized criminal group is leading
[00:09:50] us. I would now, of course, not bother
[00:09:54] the viewers with theoretical and practical aspects of what that
[00:09:57] means, but we see this in the first 10 days, what we see,
[00:10:01] I'm afraid that what we will see in the coming period will
[00:10:04] fully confirm that thesis and even
[00:10:08] that level of suspicion, as we say, in the judiciary,
[00:10:12] will go to a much, much higher level. We
[00:10:15] really lived instead of in a state, in a regulated, legally
[00:10:19] regulated system, in a system of organized criminal
[00:10:22] organization that in... that
[00:10:25] included most institutions, placed
[00:10:29] people who were its accomplices to a greater or lesser
[00:10:32] extent, that will show,
[00:10:36] time will show, as we see, from day to
[00:10:39] day everything is being revealed, secret monitoring and I just
[00:10:43] want to say that what you started the show with, in my opinion, justifiably,
[00:10:46] and its illegality
[00:10:49] are absolutely not exclusively a specific
[00:10:53] feature of this government, but judging by all accounts, this government
[00:10:57] brought it, as well as many other illegalities, to perfection, in what sense?
[00:11:00] In terms of scope, in terms of the number of people who were involved
[00:11:04] in those illegalities, in the end, in terms of
[00:11:08] us passive people who were watched, followed,
[00:11:11] wiretapped every step of the way, that I am completely,
[00:11:14] of course, sure, I even had information and so on,
[00:11:18] but I want to tell you, as my predecessor just
[00:11:21] said, who understands it much better.
[00:11:25] Obviously, the number of people who were followed, even through those who were allegedly
[00:11:28] primarily followed, was incredibly large. You
[00:11:31] therefore had a state that followed uh uh
[00:11:35] the majority of that part of its population that, according to its
[00:11:39] criteria, disagreed with it, which
[00:11:42] is of course an additional question and why more and more, and I have long
[00:11:46] advocated for it, the question of our security
[00:11:50] service, the way it was formed, uh
[00:11:53] its tasks, the way those tasks were turned into what
[00:11:57] we have today, that we actually have a security service that instead of
[00:12:01] protecting us from external attacks from terrorism, from dangers to this
[00:12:04] society, it actually deals with since 1945
[00:12:08] to today with a part of the population that I consider
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