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20260808 233000 UTC
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[00:00:12] Turkey's defense technology and and how important
[00:00:16] is it to the future military capabilities of this
[00:00:20] trilateral trilateral framework in your
[00:00:25] of opinion? that is critical frankly speaking Turkey in terms
[00:00:29] of uavs in terms of tanks and terms
[00:00:33] of other much needed
[00:00:35] technologies which are
[00:00:39] now
[00:00:40] of becoming part
[00:00:40] of the warfare
[00:00:41] and where turkey is needing in
[00:00:45] this regard and mind you turkey refused
[00:00:49] of to share it with
[00:00:51] a India, India then went on went on and
[00:00:54] bought the
[00:00:56] of American equipment from this so Turkey is at that level.
[00:01:01] That is critical to everybody here, to Saudi
[00:01:04] Arabia, to
[00:01:05] Pakistan. Pakistan
[00:01:09] of
[00:01:09] a course has its own capabilities which can be, which are
[00:01:13] in certain ways Turkey is helping out in this regard. So put together
[00:01:17] Pakistan is the technical know how understanding,
[00:01:21] Pakistan's geography, Pakistan's
[00:01:24] other
[00:01:26] of stents and also the fact that Turkey is located.
[00:01:30] where it is located is also a strength in terms
[00:01:33] of geography which very few countries enjoy, so there will
[00:01:37] be of course, so therefore I think we should look
[00:01:41] at it little more openly
[00:01:43] and I am
[00:01:47] very, thank you for joining us, I'm going to be moving
[00:01:51] to the second part of our program, we have with us Paul
[00:01:55] joining us, a senior fellow middle east institute
[00:01:57] of Switzerland, former US diplomat, thank you for being with us.
[00:02:01] Paul, when we look
[00:02:02] of at the US-Israel relations, I think we've spoken about this before in
[00:02:06] terms
[00:02:06] of the way that we've seen, and would you agree, the slight
[00:02:10] thowing between Washington and
[00:02:13] you know what's happening with
[00:02:15] of Israel, how how do you look at that situation, do you think that, there are
[00:02:19] ramifications, potential developments moving
[00:02:23] on from a while ago when we saw the comments coming from JD vans
[00:02:27] which were then followed by you know the telephone call.
[00:02:31] that was openly heard and and it is
[00:02:34] continued, would you agree with that, that there has been a slight
[00:02:37] of erosion? I would agree
[00:02:40] with that, and I think we're looking at several mutually reinforcing
[00:02:44] developments
[00:02:45] of that are happening simultaneously. I think first,
[00:02:49] of Israel enjoyed quite a
[00:02:51] of bit of sympathy and goodwill following the attacks of October
[00:02:54] 7th, but then proceeded to lose much
[00:02:58] of that in ' the
[00:03:01] of of American public based upon its conduct of its
[00:03:05] war in in Gaza. Um, the the second
[00:03:09] thing is that we've seen a movement on the American right, that is
[00:03:13] skeptical of foreign military assistance in
[00:03:16] general, and skeptical
[00:03:18] of the close relationship
[00:03:20] of between of the United States and Israel in particular, and so I think there's been
[00:03:24] a convergence of opposition to Israeli
[00:03:28] actions from the
[00:03:29] a left and from the right. and uh we saw some of that reflected in vice
[00:03:33] president Vance's statements. then there's the
[00:03:36] question of uh the war in Iran. um, President
[00:03:40] Trump uh took the United States to war in Iran uh without
[00:03:44] explaining his motives to the American people without seeking
[00:03:47] authorization from Congress. this war has been very
[00:03:51] unpopular from the beginning. it's been very frustrating for Mr.
[00:03:55] Trump who has consistently scaled back his uh
[00:03:58] a war objectives. "and I think there's been an effort in the White House to
[00:04:02] find someone to blame for that, and
[00:04:06] Israel has made a convenient scape coat in that regard,
[00:04:10] so I think all
[00:04:10] of these things taken as a whole have
[00:04:14] eroded what is traditionally very close relationship and
[00:04:18] security relationship in particular between the United States and
[00:04:21] Israel. When we look at
[00:04:25] you know this this thought, lot of people are saying that it's
[00:04:28] temporary, do you think that..." going to be
[00:04:30] a rebound that Israel is going to be able to bounce back
[00:04:34] uh to what has been traditionally its closest
[00:04:37] ally? um, i
[00:04:40] think that remains to be seen. um, we shouldn't
[00:04:43] exaggerate the extent of of
[00:04:49] in this skism because the level of security cooperation between the United States and
[00:04:53] Israel remains very close. Israel remains
[00:04:56] dependent upon American military technology and and
[00:05:00] American military production in many
[00:05:02] respects, but at this by the same
[00:05:05] token, I don't think we're going to see
[00:05:08] a return to the the sort of broad bipartisan.
[00:05:13] um unquestioning consensus that we saw um
[00:05:17] 15 or 20 years ago, and I think much of that
[00:05:20] has to do with choices made by prime minister Netanyahu
[00:05:24] um to get involved in American domestic politics
[00:05:28] and to uh sort of tilt his support uh
[00:05:32] toward the Republican Party which has alienated many
[00:05:35] Democrats, and I think much of that has to has to do with
[00:05:39] changes um within that Republican party and... the
[00:05:42] strengthening of a neo isolationist or or
[00:05:46] at minimum very transactional
[00:05:50] wing that is skeptical the the sort
[00:05:53] of long-term alliances that we
[00:05:57] see between the United States and Israel, so it's it's possible that
[00:06:00] relations will improve, but I don't think we're going to see return
[00:06:04] to the status quo as it once was. do you
[00:06:08] think that it it could be argued that perhaps you're right that we can't over?
[00:06:12] play or over uh sort of emphasize or or you know give
[00:06:16] it too much importance whatever has happened, but you think it's also you
[00:06:20] know possible that this is regional balance of power
[00:06:24] shift that is gradually
[00:06:26] happening um shifting against it
[00:06:29] at as far as park the Washington and the relationship between
[00:06:33] at this time Donald Trump and Netan Yahoo. Well I
[00:06:37] think it's broader than a question the relationship between Donald Trump and
[00:06:40] Netanyahu um because ' Donald Trump
[00:06:43] has um two more years uh left on the
[00:06:47] political scene, he's not eligible to run for
[00:06:49] re-election, so paying attention to what
[00:06:53] potential uh democratic contenders for the presidency have to say,
[00:06:56] paying attention to what Mr. Vans and Mr. Rubio have to
[00:07:00] say, I think is just as important as the uh personal
[00:07:04] chemistry between Mr. Trump and Mr. Netanyahu, but I think we
[00:07:07] we've also seen a shift in terms the regional
[00:07:10] dynamics, um is... Israel in the
[00:07:14] aftermath the October 7th attacks managed
[00:07:18] to accomplish several impressive military
[00:07:21] victories over Hamas and Gaza, over Hizballah in southern
[00:07:25] Lebanon, over Iran in the 12-day war last
[00:07:29] year that significantly strengthened Israel's
[00:07:32] security and strategic position within the
[00:07:36] region, but as we've seen in the current
[00:07:39] conflict, they have not been able to translate those... military
[00:07:43] victories into political victories, and
[00:07:46] there are much tenser relationships between
[00:07:50] Israel and potential partners and allies throughout the Gulf
[00:07:54] region that I think have been exacerbated by this
[00:07:58] conflict. I think the the process of gradual expansion the
[00:08:01] Abraham accords is probably dead for
[00:08:05] now, and I think Israel finds
[00:08:09] itself much more isolated politically than it... was
[00:08:13] at the beginning the current conflict in February.
[00:08:16] Right, I'm just going to come back to you Paul, we also been joined by
[00:08:20] Munir Akram, former representative to park UN
[00:08:24] and joining us now. Mr. Akram, do you
[00:08:27] think that this is you know the growing concern over
[00:08:31] Israel's policies in Gaza and the
[00:08:34] wider Middle East, can it lead to a shift
[00:08:38] in Washington's approach towards Israel? We would just...
[00:08:42] discussing that and and do you think that it could eventually affect
[00:08:46] US military and diplomatic support also?
[00:08:49] perhaps it's too early at this time, but but if things
[00:08:53] continue and the same trend follows through,
[00:08:56] could we see that happening also?
[00:09:00] well,
[00:09:01] you know, I think it's
[00:09:03] obvious that Israel has lost a lot
[00:09:07] of public support in the United States as
[00:09:11] result of... its actions in Gaza, which
[00:09:15] many consider to be genocide, and
[00:09:18] then this perception that
[00:09:22] Israel dragged the United States into the war
[00:09:26] with Iran again has had an
[00:09:29] impact on the perception of
[00:09:32] Israel, the Israel is lost a lot of public
[00:09:35] support within the United States and and
[00:09:39] therefore in the long term it could have... an
[00:09:42] impact on the degree to which the United States
[00:09:46] is committed to to Israel, at the moment,
[00:09:50] however, I do not think that there is any
[00:09:54] serious threat to the US Israeli alliance
[00:09:58] as such, in fact there are some moves which
[00:10:02] would integrate the intelligence
[00:10:05] and certain defense networks between the US
[00:10:09] and Israel and this movement towards the... "greater
[00:10:13] cooperation between
[00:10:15] the two countries is going forward, but in the
[00:10:19] future certainly I think that if Israel's
[00:10:23] perception does not change. Again if it
[00:10:26] is continues its war in
[00:10:29] Gaza and is seen to be an
[00:10:33] aggressive power whether in Lebanon,
[00:10:36] Syria and Palestine in
[00:10:40] particular, I think things could change in the
[00:10:43] future, especially with this upsarge
[00:10:47] in in anti Israel opinion among the younger
[00:10:51] voters in the in the United States.
[00:10:55] Enough, let me go back to Paul. Paul, do you think that the changing, in the wake
[00:10:59] of what also said, do you think that
[00:11:01] you know the changing democratic attitudes towards
[00:11:05] Israel could eventually affect us military
[00:11:09] and diplomatic support? well, I think it's
[00:11:13] a combination the changing democratic attitudes toward Israel and the
[00:11:17] changing republican attitudes toward Israel, because what we've
[00:11:20] seen over the course the past six months as this conflict has
[00:11:25] on is that there has been
[00:11:28] since the Israeli military action in
[00:11:32] Gaza, there has been on the left
[00:11:34] in the United States very strong humanitarian
[00:11:38] case to make against US military support of
[00:11:41] Israel, and now we've seen that dovetail
[00:11:45] with movement on the right that is making a very pragmatic
[00:11:49] realist case that the closeness of this
[00:11:52] relationship is entangling the United States states in
[00:11:56] risky and dangerous military adventures in
[00:11:59] which the US should have no interest,
[00:12:02] so I i think the the specific
[00:12:06] danger at this point in time is that we see those trends
[00:12:10] converging and we see
[00:12:13] opposition to the current Israeli government if
[00:12:16] not for the state of Israel in general
[00:12:20] um coming from both the left and from the
[00:12:23] right? enough uh, Mr. Akram,
[00:12:27] Israel does appear to be facing significant setback in the
[00:12:30] region, is could it develop into greater
[00:12:34] strategic challenge for Israel in the coming days and
[00:12:38] also of course the narrative that has been built against
[00:12:42] it, whether it gives its credence or not, but
[00:12:45] largely we've seen, if you look at Washington, we look at Europe, we
[00:12:49] look all over, do you think that that has also
[00:12:52] contributed to to its outlook at
[00:12:56] this time? yes, i think
[00:13:00] i think Israel and particularly prime
[00:13:04] minister netan yahu have miscalculated. i
[00:13:08] think the brutality the war in
[00:13:11] Gaza set back the the
[00:13:15] prospects the so-called Abraham accords in the
[00:13:19] prospect of any normalization with Saudi Arabia and with
[00:13:23] other Arab and Muslim countries. will set back because the attacks
[00:13:27] on Gaza and then top of that, once the
[00:13:30] attack against Iran
[00:13:34] started, I think that has thrown
[00:13:38] into reverse all the prospects that Israel entertain
[00:13:42] with regard to the expansion the the
[00:13:45] Abraham accords, and now Israel is seen
[00:13:49] as much of a threat by the
[00:13:53] Arab states ' as is
[00:13:56] Iran, if not more so, so if
[00:14:00] there is in the future, any
[00:14:03] normalization, normalization process between
[00:14:07] the gulf, arab states and
[00:14:11] Iran, then Israel will become the kind of soul
[00:14:14] threat, be reversed by new government, which is
[00:14:18] not Mr. Netan Yahu and his extremist
[00:14:22] cabinet members, that remains to be, needs to be seen,
[00:14:26] but I think it will have to contract its
[00:14:29] ambitions quite considerably in order to
[00:14:32] normalize with the Arab states in
[00:14:35] particular, they will have to be some sort of
[00:14:38] path towards Palestinian self determination
[00:14:42] if normalization with the Arabs
[00:14:46] is is to take place in the
[00:14:48] future, in
[00:14:51] keeping with what Mr. Munir Akram is saying, Paul, do
[00:14:55] you think that, do you also think that this could perhaps make it
[00:14:59] easier or or
[00:15:00] you know allow the Palestinians cause
[00:15:04] to to gain you know the loss that we are seeing or or you know the
[00:15:08] relationship that we are looking at as far as the
[00:15:12] US
[00:15:13] and and Israel is concerned, could be gain eventual gain for the
[00:15:16] Palestinians or do you think that's going too far and giving it too
[00:15:20] much credit? well, I, I think the
[00:15:24] Palestinian... cause as a whole
[00:15:26] has has gained in terms of external political
[00:15:29] support, and I think that applies both within the region and
[00:15:32] in the United States, the problem is that
[00:15:36] that increase. sympathy for the Palestinian cause has not translated
[00:15:40] to progress on the ground for the Palestinian people, and we've
[00:15:44] seen conditions worrison, both in Gaza and in the West Bank,
[00:15:48] which is something that's been happening more
[00:15:51] quietly during Israel's military
[00:15:54] operations, but the actions of Israeli
[00:15:58] settlers that have been happening with at least the taset
[00:16:02] approval the Israeli authorities to evict
[00:16:05] Palestinian residents from their... homes in
[00:16:09] area that had absolutely nothing to do with the Gaza
[00:16:12] conflict, I think is is making it more and more difficult
[00:16:16] day by day to envision any sort of territorial
[00:16:20] solution to the Palestinian
[00:16:22] question, but but you think that at the same time
[00:16:26] the domestic audience in the US is also
[00:16:29] reacting to to of course
[00:16:33] the the US Israel nexus and and the fact that there's a...
[00:16:37] there is at least a question being asked in the US that that are they really
[00:16:41] towing the Israel line and and to what extent is it
[00:16:45] is a US policy? yes,
[00:16:49] that's definitely true, and i think that that is
[00:16:53] likely to have tangible consequences for the
[00:16:56] US-Israeli relationship, and in particular
[00:17:00] for the level of assistance that the United States provides to Israel.
[00:17:04] um, my only note of caution here is:
[00:17:07] that so far we have not seen
[00:17:11] um that the risk of that loss of support
[00:17:15] has had any impact whatsoever on Israeli
[00:17:19] policy toward the Palestinian people either in Gaza or in the west
[00:17:23] bank and if if I look toward the
[00:17:26] Israeli elections in October yes
[00:17:30] Mr. Netanyahu is quite vulnerable but I don't
[00:17:34] really see any forces domestically in Israel.
[00:17:38] that are likely to improve the situation for the Palestinian
[00:17:41] people. Right. Mr. Akram, very quickly, do you
[00:17:45] think, and and I asked Paul this earlier also that this
[00:17:49] will last, because if we and it's not just a question
[00:17:53] the current administration, the US administration and
[00:17:56] what's happening as far as Netan Yahoo is concerned, but but a more
[00:18:00] permanent sort of pressure and that, as far
[00:18:03] as the US, machinery.
[00:18:07] overall is concern that there is there is a cognisance that they perhaps need
[00:18:11] to take a step back from this alliance,
[00:18:13] you know,
[00:18:14] at least
[00:18:14] for a while. well, you know, I
[00:18:18] think, as I said, public opinion
[00:18:21] has turned against Israel, it
[00:18:25] remains to be seen how this will be translated into
[00:18:29] any concrete policy, as far as the US
[00:18:33] congress is concerned or the US administration is concerned,
[00:18:36] remains to be: seen what sort of constraints there are,
[00:18:40] if there are real limitations on the assistance that is provided to
[00:18:44] Israel, or whether it's just public posturing
[00:18:47] that that meant satisfy public
[00:18:51] opinion, remains to be seen, but I think the larger
[00:18:54] larger issue is that the United States, I
[00:18:58] believe, now has is coming to
[00:19:02] the consensus here that they should not
[00:19:06] be entangled. in the middle east that this is not a
[00:19:09] priority, it is an Israeli priority, it's not an
[00:19:13] American priority, America has got other fish to
[00:19:16] fry, more strategic challenges,
[00:19:20] whether from China, Russia or in Latin America,
[00:19:24] so I think US policy could
[00:19:26] shift visave the middle east,
[00:19:30] and that will have an impact on the degree of
[00:19:34] its support for Israel, I'm not. sure how far it will
[00:19:38] go, it could well be that the US would
[00:19:42] begin to depend even more on Israel
[00:19:46] for the protection of what it conceives is his national interest in in
[00:19:50] the region if it itself were to withdraw is basis for
[00:19:54] example from the gulf and from other arab
[00:19:56] countries. in terms of its entanglement
[00:20:00] as far as you know the middle east is concerned, do you think it's too little
[00:20:04] too late as far as the US is concerned and they are hopelessly? angled
[00:20:08] it
[00:20:08] it will you know it take some monumental
[00:20:12] amount of effort for for the US at this time
[00:20:16] to to sort of extradite the you know extricate themselves the way that
[00:20:19] they envisage that they can, isn't that also
[00:20:22] accurate? well, i i think
[00:20:25] the us is a position, look its bases
[00:20:29] in in the gulf have been damaged, so it could very well
[00:20:33] just decide not to rebuild those bases, it could be
[00:20:37] finish its profile and just locate
[00:20:41] itself in one or two gulf countries rather than all over the
[00:20:44] place um and it could depend on
[00:20:48] friends like Saudi Arabia, Turkey,
[00:20:52] Pakistan to be able to contribute to
[00:20:55] stability in the Gulf, and I think
[00:20:59] that this is something that could be
[00:21:02] factor in the
[00:21:04] in the trilateral agreement that has been reached, these are countries
[00:21:08] which are now seeking to build their own security
[00:21:11] within the their own region, and this could also
[00:21:15] be a way in which the United States could
[00:21:19] reduce it. profile in the region, so I think a
[00:21:23] lot of things remain to be seen, but I think the
[00:21:27] US after this experience is probably going to
[00:21:30] step back and allow this region
[00:21:33] to evolve its own
[00:21:36] arrangements without the kind of
[00:21:40] military entanglement
[00:21:42] that that has for being with us,
[00:21:46] Mr. Akram, thank you for joining us, Paul, thank you for being with us, in terms.
[00:21:50] so of course at this time when we look at the US and Israel certainly there
[00:21:53] seems to be a flaw frisur as far as that relationship
[00:21:57] is concern. how permanent it is of course remains to be
[00:22:01] seen, but at this time there seems to be at least a question as
[00:22:05] far as the US is concerned that whether they can
[00:22:09] assist the Israel to the degree they seem to have been
[00:22:13] doing and whether they can necessarily continue this
[00:22:16] alliance at the level that we've seen. thank you so much. for
[00:22:20] joining us today on
[00:22:21] perspective.
[00:23:03] Mosques in India are prime target of
[00:23:06] Hindutva terrorism. Hindutva
[00:23:10] regime has demolished yet an other mosque in
[00:23:14] Samhal district in Uttar
[00:23:15] Pradesh.
[00:23:21] Modi regime is demolishing mosks across India
[00:23:25] to hurt religious sentiments the
[00:23:27] Muslims. Since 2014,
[00:23:31] there has been a sharp rise in violence against
[00:23:35] Muslims in India. International
[00:23:38] Community must act to save Indian Muslims from
[00:23:42] Hindutva
[00:23:43] terrorism.
[00:23:55] you about about the Pakistani
[00:23:57] role, thank you, how have
[00:24:01] the Iranian leadership rule been so far? i
[00:24:05] think they gen means in the
[00:24:09] regionship
[00:24:11] and i
[00:24:14] have no second thought about the fact that the man
[00:24:18] of peace.
[00:27:28] and welcome to unfold, I am. Sir is on the
[00:27:31] Israel that... is violating all the international rules and
[00:27:35] law, actually the crisis had started about
[00:27:39] two to three decades before, the United States under the pressure of Israel
[00:27:43] wants to degrade the military
[00:27:46] capacity of Iran to control the straight of
[00:27:49] homo has to decide especially now
[00:27:53] that you don't have a unified leadership, what you have on the
[00:27:57] ground is a tripatriot
[00:28:01] coalition. This is exactly the point uh, not to make things
[00:28:04] hard with the average person, but to retain some leverage in these
[00:28:08] negotiations. On the parts of Iranians, the Iranian supreme leader
[00:28:12] mumeni now finds himself pressured by
[00:28:15] both pro government uh public clamering for retribution.
[00:28:19] Mr. Witkof and Kushner and others went
[00:28:23] with the template that they designed for
[00:28:27] Gaza.
[00:28:39] In a world full of noise, clarity
[00:28:41] matters, the
[00:28:45] news never
[00:28:45] sleeps.
[00:28:49] Every minute, every second, there's something
[00:28:53] happening. Somewhere
[00:28:57] in the chaos,
[00:29:01] the truth gets hidden. every night
[00:29:05] at 10 we connect the dots. watch the news room with
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[00:30:13] Hello and
[00:30:13] a way on welcome to Pakistan TV. I am fizah with the top stories of
[00:30:17] this
[00:30:18] hour.
[00:30:33] Nationwide celebrations marks historic Makka joint defense agreement between
[00:30:37] Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Turkey. Celebrations will continue until Monday
[00:30:41] with public and private buildings illuminated in green and red lights.