PAKISTANTV — broadcast
20261012 003000 UTC
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[00:00:00] in terms of some kind
[00:00:01] of of serious solution, how would you rate it? because we've also
[00:00:05] of seen of what happened in the the war
[00:00:08] recently
[00:00:10] of between Pakistan and India in which of course we saw the role
[00:00:12] of the US president
[00:00:14] of also, so so there is you a certain background to what
[00:00:17] happened, so so what are your thoughts at this time of that kind of
[00:00:21] a diplomatic success of of that kind of
[00:00:24] of a diplomatic effort?
[00:00:30] 10% uh at
[00:00:33] first, but then you bring
[00:00:37] of in the the um global powers, including the global south,
[00:00:41] including the western powers
[00:00:42] of and you start to make progress. um, and the
[00:00:46] Vietnam settlement, years were
[00:00:50] spent debating the size
[00:00:52] of the table that diplomats would set sit at and
[00:00:56] how many people would be at that
[00:00:58] of table, so... It's a slow
[00:01:01] painstaking process that requires
[00:01:04] patience, which you maybe in
[00:01:08] two years we'll say it's a 30% chance, maybe in five years
[00:01:12] we'll say it's a 50% chance. I'm not number one
[00:01:16] mathematician, but I do know these things take
[00:01:20] time, and I would, I
[00:01:24] think the world would celebrate if India and Pakistan
[00:01:28] came to some.
[00:01:32] in sort of a dat, thank you so
[00:01:36] much Richard, on that note, thank
[00:01:37] you so much for joining us, thank you for your very valuable
[00:01:39] of input, it was a pleasure having you, I want to move
[00:01:42] on, we have with us
[00:01:46] of joining of Tarushi Aswani who is an
[00:01:50] independent
[00:01:50] of journalist based in New Delhi,
[00:01:52] of India joining us, Tarushi, you've been
[00:01:55] reporting from the ground since yesterday, what have you witnessed how
[00:02:00] would you describe the atmosphere in Delhi at this time, as of
[00:02:03] course these protests continue, what are you
[00:02:06] witnessing? as somebody who's
[00:02:10] been on the ground for the last two days, I
[00:02:13] of have seen that lot of protesters are being
[00:02:16] brutally detained, but that is not stopping their
[00:02:20] courage from protesting against the government, and apart from this,
[00:02:24] you also have to know that we are currently
[00:02:27] of facing
[00:02:28] of a crackdown of sorts in the heart, of delhi
[00:02:30] so this place that we read about the jantar mantar
[00:02:33] enclave
[00:02:35] of and how it's situated in kanot place which is like the heartbeat
[00:02:38] of delhi which has our supreme court of india which also
[00:02:42] has the
[00:02:43] of president's house, the prime minister's house, the parliament of
[00:02:46] India,
[00:02:55] we also have with us Tania Bazai who's in human rights.
[00:03:00] lawyer joining us. Tanya, in terms
[00:03:03] of the Delhi crackdown, is it is is in your
[00:03:07] opinion quite frankly, is peaceful descent being
[00:03:10] criminalized? Of course thousands of people are reportedly being
[00:03:14] detained in Delhi, of course, as these
[00:03:17] reporters are wanting to demonstrate against the chief election
[00:03:21] commissioner and of course the electoral revision, the CGP
[00:03:25] leaders, CJP leaders also detained upon arriving in
[00:03:29] the cap. is it is the response in your
[00:03:32] opinion proportionate and what is it reveal about the Modi
[00:03:37] of government and of course their tolerance of peaceful
[00:03:42] of protesting?
[00:03:43] of see the if we go through the laws and constitution
[00:03:47] of the India, they have given right to
[00:03:50] of assemble and this give them protection to protest peacefully. when it comes to
[00:03:53] article 19 subsection one and article 19 subsection
[00:03:57] two, they have given them all the right to protest. peacefully
[00:04:01] and on the other hand, the supreme court has also emphasized that
[00:04:04] the protester doing protest are is the fundamental
[00:04:08] right of all the
[00:04:09] of citizen and the unreasonable restrictions can lead to constitutional
[00:04:13] crisis, so if it come to the mass
[00:04:16] disfranchisement, they can also invoke the sections
[00:04:20] of section 21, 22, 23, 24
[00:04:24] of the representation of people's act 1950, so
[00:04:27] they have all the sections, all the provisions even the
[00:04:31] constitution
[00:04:32] of the India has
[00:04:33] of given them all the rights to do the peaceful protest,
[00:04:37] even the supreme
[00:04:38] of court has the rulings that they can protest peacefully unless and until they
[00:04:42] don't
[00:04:42] of breach the law, so I think that there is no criminality
[00:04:46] in all this process, if we go through the provisions of
[00:04:50] India and the constitution, they have given them all the right under article
[00:04:54] 191 and 192
[00:04:56] of the constitution of India, how
[00:04:58] of would you look at the practical? sort of
[00:05:01] practicality
[00:05:02] of these rights in terms of how are they practically being
[00:05:05] imposed, are they being imposed the way that the
[00:05:08] constitution sort of forces?
[00:05:13] "I think practically they they should be, I
[00:05:17] think more peaceful and has there are a lot of sanction already
[00:05:21] imposed on them a lot them are detained already, even
[00:05:24] the the the the the head the Cookro Janata
[00:05:28] party has been detained and even detention itself is a crime
[00:05:32] in law, you cannot detain someone for more than 24 hours and you have to
[00:05:36] produce them before the magistrate as soon as possible, so practically I
[00:05:40] think they are very influential, if you see the opposition. leaders are also in
[00:05:43] their favor and the opposition leaders in according to
[00:05:47] article 84 and 102 the constitution allow them to join
[00:05:51] them and promote their
[00:05:53] narrative. fair enough, let me let me
[00:05:57] come back to you, let let's go to Tarushi to hear what's happening on the ground.
[00:06:01] Tarushi, what are the processors demanding,
[00:06:04] you know, why has the revision of electoral roles become such
[00:06:07] major flash point when we look at the demonstrators calling
[00:06:11] for chief election. Kumar to resign, is it is
[00:06:15] it? what is behind this this kind of
[00:06:19] protest that we are looking
[00:06:20] at? essentially we have
[00:06:24] to look a lot of factors here, because there was a story done by an
[00:06:27] Indian newspaper on September 24, after which there was
[00:06:31] a wide spread protest across India demanding that 13
[00:06:35] crore votes which have been deleted be taken back and the
[00:06:39] election commission must take accountability for it. However, what is
[00:06:43] coming to notice of protesters, citizens and opposition leaders
[00:06:47] is that there is no acknowledgement on the part of Gnyanesh Kumar who is
[00:06:51] the chief election commissioner of India and neither has there been any
[00:06:54] accountability on part the BJP on part
[00:06:58] the Modi government that there is deletion of 13 crore
[00:07:02] voters across India. What they are saying is is that procedures
[00:07:06] going on and these visions happened. However we must also
[00:07:10] understand that there. is an overwhelming
[00:07:13] sentiment that these voters were deleted in fact, there is an
[00:07:17] allegation that these voters were deleted in fact to make Mr. Modi
[00:07:21] win in these states where the elections happened with deleted
[00:07:24] voters, for example Bihar where the BJP has won in
[00:07:28] coalition and also in West Bengal where the BJP has
[00:07:32] won, so there are a lot of questions that the protesters are
[00:07:35] asking about how this is happening and India
[00:07:39] is one the largest democracies in the world. we
[00:07:42] have around 970 million registered
[00:07:46] voters, out these such a big deletion
[00:07:49] is
[00:07:56] one the a largest problem tarushi, tarushi, when you, like democracies you said, India is in the world, but as you know, we just spoke
[00:07:59] to Tania Bazai also,
[00:08:01] you know, and there are some constitutional freedoms that are granted to the
[00:08:05] citizens of India, in terms of detention, are they
[00:08:09] being followed, are they being
[00:08:11] you know in terms of are they being? abused, are they being followed? when we look at the
[00:08:15] rules regarding detention, the time periods, as far
[00:08:19] as
[00:08:19] you know the leaders are concerned, the opposition parties are, those that are protesting from
[00:08:23] the opposition parties also, so so on the ground, what is the
[00:08:27] situation with regard to those constitutional
[00:08:29] freedoms?
[00:08:36] so on the ground, the sentiment is like about detentions, i
[00:08:40] will give you very official figure which is:
[00:08:42] 700 protesters were detained yesterday, this
[00:08:45] includes former chief ministers, this includes lot of members
[00:08:49] the opposition party and also includes youth
[00:08:52] organizations, however many them were released, almost
[00:08:56] all them in fact were released late night yesterday
[00:09:00] and even early morning today Sunday on October 11, so
[00:09:03] regarding rules and regulations, the Indian constitution has
[00:09:07] stipulated sections which talk about the freedom to
[00:09:10] protest, the freedom of expression and freedom for peaceful
[00:09:13] assembly and expressing one in terms of writing in
[00:09:17] posters, using photographs, however these rights
[00:09:20] in section 19 the Indian constitution are
[00:09:23] being massively overlooked when it comes to these
[00:09:27] protests which actually point massive
[00:09:30] fingers at the modi government and what
[00:09:34] is also come to notice is that while the Supreme Court of
[00:09:38] India has intervened while they also said that internet must not be
[00:09:42] shut.
[00:09:42] down in the Indian capital while the Supreme Court also said that you
[00:09:46] must not use excessive force while battling protesters.
[00:09:50] All of this was ignored by the Ministry of Home Affairs under Mr.
[00:09:54] Amit Shah, all these orders were ignored. I was
[00:09:57] reporting from the ground yesterday from 8 am till 8
[00:10:01] pm in the night, we did not have internet the whole day,
[00:10:05] and wherever we had internet, it was very patchy.
[00:10:09] area So the whole the capital, as I explain
[00:10:12] to you, cannot place area where this is happening, it is the heartbeat of Delhi,
[00:10:16] you have the parliament of India there, you have the prime minister house, you have the president
[00:10:20] house, you have the Supreme Court of India situated
[00:10:24] there, imagine having no internet there for 24 hours, how would
[00:10:27] people move around and this would especially being done to
[00:10:31] you know nullify or zero five protesters, however
[00:10:34] protesters still gathered in massive numbers and in front of my eyes
[00:10:38] protesters were thrashed, they were beaten, they were dragged, their clothes were
[00:10:42] tone and the police was stuffing them into detention vans like one
[00:10:46] stuff cattle into vans, this is what was happening today as well as
[00:10:49] yesterday right, let me come back to you, let us go to Tania and then I'll come
[00:10:53] back to you, Tania, when we look at like you said, it doesn't seem like those constitutional
[00:10:57] freedoms, those constitutional rights when you talk about detention
[00:11:01] are being upheld, when we look at what Tarushi is
[00:11:05] telling us about what's happening on the ground, but in terms the election
[00:11:08] commission's independence and accountability, these
[00:11:11] demon demonstrations demanding that the
[00:11:15] CEC of CEC Kumar's
[00:11:19] resignation, when we look at the opposition parties questioning the
[00:11:22] transparency the electoral role division,
[00:11:25] how do you look at this? because when an institution of course is responsible for
[00:11:29] ensuring free and fair elections is and it's
[00:11:32] facing these kind of allegations of political bias, what
[00:11:36] legal mechanisms exist to hold it
[00:11:39] accountable? you now does the current controversy
[00:11:43] weaken India's constitutional freedoms,
[00:11:47] institutional safeguards, what reforms in your opinion
[00:11:51] would help restore the public confidence at this time?
[00:11:56] If I talk according to legal perspective, they have very good
[00:12:00] legal framework that comes under article 32 and
[00:12:04] 226 the constitution that they can hold the commission accountable
[00:12:07] for transparency and fostering the public engagement and on the other
[00:12:11] side if you see the the this this entire battle is
[00:12:15] the transparency and fostering the public opinion and public
[00:12:19] engagement so they have that article 32 and
[00:12:23] article 226 they can invoke. anyt the protesters and
[00:12:26] voters, they can go before the high court, they can go for the the
[00:12:30] courts can go for the suoto cognisance, so
[00:12:34] they have all the legal, you can say framework in front
[00:12:38] them, and they can adopt them, they can invoke them. on the
[00:12:42] other hand, as you know that the India is also
[00:12:46] signatory to the ICCPR, article 21 and
[00:12:50] 25, but after the invention the intervention
[00:12:53] the uh united nation or you can say the international
[00:12:57] convenient, even india,
[00:13:01] india just you
[00:13:02] can say said that
[00:13:03] we don't want any internal interference in our country, whereas it is
[00:13:07] already signatory to all the these
[00:13:10] laws and they have to abide by. let me interject here,
[00:13:14] when we look at
[00:13:15] you know on the one hand constitutional rights versus
[00:13:19] state restrictions, how would you look at the
[00:13:22] situation at this time?
[00:13:24] you know on the one and of course like you are saying there are all these statutes in
[00:13:28] place, there all these constitutional
[00:13:31] provisions that and constitutional safegards,
[00:13:34] also legal safegards that you are talking about, but when we look at
[00:13:38] practically the situation on ground, how do you
[00:13:42] look at things? let's talk about the practicality
[00:13:45] versus the you know whatever checks are
[00:13:48] procedurally in place, because we
[00:13:51] are looking a state placing restrictions, we are looking a st
[00:13:55] that seems according to what Tarushi is
[00:13:59] saying, that is ignoring what are frankly
[00:14:03] constitutional safegards? i think Modi
[00:14:07] government must engage constructively rather than dismissively. when it
[00:14:11] comes to reasonable restrictions, yes it is mentioned in article 19 subsection
[00:14:14] two the constitution, there are some reason restrictions when it
[00:14:18] comes freedom of speech when it comes to right to assemble, but on
[00:14:22] the other hand supreme court is very clear and Supreme Court ruling is very
[00:14:26] clear that there are some reasonable restrictions, but that
[00:14:29] restrictions can become disproportionate when they
[00:14:33] suppress lawful descent. If they are like protesting
[00:14:37] legally and peacefully then these provisions and
[00:14:41] these restrictions do not apply and they cannot impose these
[00:14:44] restrictions because they are suppressing lawful
[00:14:47] descents. Fair enough. Let me come back to
[00:14:51] you. Tarushi, when we look at the government's response. "the
[00:14:55] Modi government the authorities justified their handling the
[00:14:58] protests, they've you know how in terms of
[00:15:02] what they've said at this time, in terms of officials directly addressing
[00:15:06] protests concerns, have they really
[00:15:10] addressed these concerns, have the response focused
[00:15:13] primarily on maintaining public order or or does the
[00:15:17] state look like it's in mood to listen to what is
[00:15:20] being said on on such huge scale at this time?"
[00:15:26] Marok the state is not ready to listen at all, even as I speaking to
[00:15:30] you at the moment, there are protesters, men, women,
[00:15:34] children, elderly, they are all in connot place right now. we
[00:15:37] speaking, some them are climbing buses, some them are you know
[00:15:41] walking on the road, some them are demanding that the others be released who have been
[00:15:45] detained at 3 pm today, but what it seems like
[00:15:49] is that the Modi government is using the state
[00:15:52] machinery to very conveniently protect the chief election
[00:15:56] commissioner Mr. Kumar, and it appears as though they are not in mood
[00:16:00] to comment or cater to any the demands the protesters have
[00:16:03] laid forward, while the protesters have always
[00:16:07] even back in July when we had mass protest here led by the Cocker Janata
[00:16:11] Party, protesters maintained that please
[00:16:14] understand that these protests are going to be peaceful, we are the
[00:16:18] believers of Gandhi and we want to have peaceful protests here,
[00:16:22] however in my opinion the government is ready to make
[00:16:26] the experience of protesting in India very humiliating
[00:16:30] activity, they want to humiliate protesters, journalists who are
[00:16:33] covering this to the extent that we do not feel
[00:16:37] like covering the protests ever again, because the way the police has
[00:16:41] been dealing with protesters is inhuman by
[00:16:45] the max, they have been detaining protesters, journalists and they
[00:16:49] are not releasing them even when people are showing their press cards,
[00:16:53] so that says a lot about where the orders are coming from, what the state
[00:16:57] orders are, and even currently when I am moving in Delhi at
[00:17:01] the moment, there is section called 163 in place
[00:17:05] which forbids the assembly of more than four. people, so we
[00:17:08] are basically a state of undeclared emergency
[00:17:12] and rights of people are being trampled just because they are daring to question the modi
[00:17:16] government. what happens next in
[00:17:20] your opinion, are the protesters preparing to continue these
[00:17:24] demonstrations? what is the government's response like you said
[00:17:28] in terms of are they going to be continuing to confront? like
[00:17:32] you said they're even confronting and making things difficult for those that that
[00:17:36] want to cover these. protest, of course journalists like yourself,
[00:17:39] journalists who really have only one interest to tell what tell
[00:17:43] everyone, what's exactly happening, tell it like it is, in your
[00:17:47] opinion is civil liberties, democratic accountability
[00:17:50] under Modi's leadership, how how is
[00:17:54] it taking, of course it's taking a blow, but what
[00:17:58] happens next in your
[00:17:59] opinion? so
[00:18:03] today also a protest was foiled, protesters were not allowed to move beyond the
[00:18:07] point in the central location where the protest was planned, however
[00:18:11] protesters are not backing down, they have one goal which is the
[00:18:15] resignation of Gnyanesh Kumar and the
[00:18:18] other thing is that we also have a protest tomorrow in the
[00:18:22] morning led by Rahul Gandhi who is marching
[00:18:26] in the same area, is going to be marching tomorrow, so we are waiting to see what
[00:18:30] happens next, because frankly at this moment it is very
[00:18:34] difficult and unpredictable to tell what
[00:18:36] the next step is going
[00:18:37] to be, However, one thing remains certain is that the
[00:18:40] protesters are not backing down, whether it's the corporate Janata party,
[00:18:44] whether it's normal citizens, whether it's people who are engaged in
[00:18:48] politics, youth activists or opposition leaders, chief
[00:18:52] ministers, former people who been associated with the government, lot of
[00:18:55] IAS, Indian administrative service officers have also written to the
[00:18:59] Supreme Court of India asking for clarity about whatever has
[00:19:03] happened with the electoral role, so what we are
[00:19:06] seeing in is basically pointing of fingers
[00:19:10] a posing of questions and all
[00:19:14] this is unanimously questioning what the Modi government has been
[00:19:18] doing and planning to do in the last 12 years. why
[00:19:22] has it become so important for
[00:19:25] you know
[00:19:26] for for not to sort of lay off as far as this
[00:19:30] CAC, the chief election commissioner is concerned, why is it become such
[00:19:34] huge deal for the current government in your opinion?
[00:19:41] I think what one must observe, I
[00:19:45] think people who watch India globally must understand that there is
[00:19:49] pattern that the government follows, so the pattern is to never accept its
[00:19:53] mistakes, so while we saw the resignation of
[00:19:56] education minister of India Dharmendra Pradhan resignation we saw in July
[00:20:00] itself when the protesters were all over Delhi again asking for
[00:20:04] his resignation because lot of exam. government exam
[00:20:08] medical papers had been lead and that had led to the suicide of
[00:20:11] 25 students who were under pressure of giving reexams because
[00:20:15] the government's failure to contain the confidentiality of exam
[00:20:19] papers, this man who is the CEC cannot be
[00:20:22] sacrificed this time. Dharmendra Pradhan could have been
[00:20:26] sacrificed because it was about education, but what we are
[00:20:29] seeing is a man who has been alleged to have rigged
[00:20:33] elections which made the BJP win in two states.
[00:20:37] so the moment if and when Gnyanesh Kumar resigns,
[00:20:41] questions will now surface on Modi and all the election
[00:20:45] state elections he has won in the last 12 years, so I do not think that the Modi
[00:20:49] government is... is ready to face the floor when it comes to
[00:20:52] accountability over all the state elections we have
[00:20:56] had, like we just had elections in three states this year, we
[00:20:59] also have elections in two to three other states the next year, so what
[00:21:03] is coming is greater for them than what has gone by, so in
[00:21:07] order to hold to the power they have had since 12 years,
[00:21:11] they will not let Gnyanesh Kumar resign, because once he resigns
[00:21:15] he will also have to answer who are the people who
[00:21:18] you know if he has actually rigged votes, who were the people who made him
[00:21:22] rig those votes, so that's like very complicated
[00:21:26] calculation we have right now, a quick
[00:21:28] question Tanya, when we look at detention of journalists, for
[00:21:32] example, activists, political leaders, you now
[00:21:36] when what what Tarushi is saying, making it difficult for
[00:21:40] those journalists like herself who want to cover what's happening,
[00:21:44] you want to tell the world you know of course what is happening
[00:21:47] at this time, what legal protection? exist or should
[00:21:51] apply, when reporters document public protests, what
[00:21:55] remedies are available, if individuals are detained without
[00:21:58] adequate legal grounds, and what message lastly does this
[00:22:02] response send to the civil society and ordinary citizens
[00:22:06] who want to challenge these this kind of
[00:22:09] inequality, this kind of injustice that is at
[00:22:12] play? illegal detention itself
[00:22:16] is unlawful and it's not allowed in law and for
[00:22:20] illegal detention you have to go before the high court in the rit of hebious
[00:22:23] corpus and you have to file a rit and you have to produce
[00:22:27] the the
[00:22:31] whosoever the protester or voter is, you have to
[00:22:34] bef appear before the court within 24 hours, so you cannot
[00:22:38] detain someone more than 24 hours,
[00:22:42] it's illegal and pakistan even otherwise,
[00:22:46] and what i see that the journalists they have freedom of speech right?
[00:22:50] to assemble I told you under article 19 subsection one
[00:22:53] and they have all the right and Supreme Court of Pakistan is
[00:22:57] very sorry supreme court of India is very clear on this that
[00:23:01] the protest is the fundamental right and the unreasonable
[00:23:05] restrictions can lead to the constitutional crisis and you cannot
[00:23:08] stop them from protesting when it comes to peaceful
[00:23:12] protest so illegal detention cannot go
[00:23:16] beyond 24 hours you have to present that person before the
[00:23:20] magistrate within 24 hours right, fair enough, thank you so
[00:23:24] much for being with us, thank you for updating us, taushi, thank you for letting
[00:23:27] us know exactly what's happening, thank you for joining
[00:23:31] us, when we look at what's happening
[00:23:33] in India, of course under the Modi rule things seem to be in shambles,
[00:23:37] when we look at democracy, when we look at right to peaceful protest, when we
[00:23:41] look at accountability, when we look at the right to
[00:23:45] assembly, the government seems to be coming down on all those
[00:23:48] rights, country that calls itself the greater democracy, greatest
[00:23:52] democracy in the world seems to be
[00:23:56] flagrantly abusing all sorts of human
[00:24:00] rights, the right of journalists to cover the events, making it
[00:24:03] difficult like Tarushi said even report
[00:24:07] what's happening on the ground, one certainly hopes that
[00:24:11] some sort of sanity will prevail. Thank you so much for joining us
[00:24:15] today on
[00:24:16] perspective.
[00:30:00] Good morning, assalamualaikum, you're watching. on TV with the news at
[00:30:04] this hour, I'm Fair Fayaz, let's begin with the
[00:30:07] headlines,
[00:30:25] a Pakistani resident has been killed and 11 others wounded in a
[00:30:29] fresh hoothi strike on Raad's international air.
[00:30:32] reported.
[00:30:41] The Saudi led coalition says it has intercepted a hoouti launched ballistic
[00:30:45] missile targeting Amis Mushed while Saudi civil
[00:30:49] defense has declared
[00:30:50] the threat over in Abha following earlier
[00:30:53] alert.