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20261012 150000 UTC
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[00:00:00] of wealth within the reservation system where a
[00:00:03] of few chiefs or owners,
[00:00:07] you might say, are gaining most
[00:00:09] of the wealth that's being generated through these new business that have been
[00:00:13] created. there's been for over these three decades there's been
[00:00:16] a tremendous awakening in terms
[00:00:18] of the consciousness of how people view uh what
[00:00:22] what happened the atrocities committed against the
[00:00:26] indigenous
[00:00:27] of people uh in these united states. but I
[00:00:30] think uh and but and I think
[00:00:32] in a sense that that parallels what's happened the last three years for the
[00:00:35] Palestinians, that there is this increased awakening, but I
[00:00:39] think that it's been very limited in terms of what policy policy
[00:00:42] shifts uh we've had in terms of uh
[00:00:46] changing tangibly uh their lives um
[00:00:50] and and tangibly making redress for the crimes committed
[00:00:54] against them and as we see with the Palestinians no
[00:00:57] shift meaningfully in terms of US policy. lot of
[00:01:03] of of pronouncements, lot of of posturing, lot
[00:01:04] of of of backtracking in terms of rhetoric, but no meaningful shift in terms of
[00:01:08] policy, and until that changes, that's completely
[00:01:15] in of unacceptable.
[00:01:31] of
[00:01:50] of of of
[00:02:03] of
[00:02:18] of
[00:02:28] in
[00:02:47] of
[00:02:51] a
[00:03:09] of
[00:03:10] of
[00:03:16] a
[00:03:24] of
[00:03:27] of
[00:03:44] in
[00:04:03] a
[00:04:13] of
[00:04:13] of
[00:04:17] welcome back, i'm going to continue the browling coverage
[00:04:20] of the
[00:04:20] of indigenous people's day by two more steam guests here, i'm
[00:04:24] going to
[00:04:25] a introduce of my guest, miss Aviva Chomsky, historian, author and
[00:04:29] activist, joingus us Boston in the US and also
[00:04:32] Miss Alana Travers, researcher
[00:04:34] of the School of Law, Queens University, joining me from Belfast. Very
[00:04:38] good to have you both on this um special occasion and this rolling coverage.
[00:04:42] My question to you, Miss Aviva Chomsky is that after
[00:04:46] US's independence in
[00:04:49] in 1783, Westward expansion accelerated in the disposition
[00:04:53] of native Americans, how central was this land
[00:04:56] acquisition to the formation
[00:04:58] of the American state? It
[00:05:02] was absolutely fundamental to the formation
[00:05:05] of the American state, if you look at the map
[00:05:07] of the 13 colonies that rebelled against Great
[00:05:10] Britain in uh
[00:05:12] 1975, it's a tiny sliver along the
[00:05:16] east coast of what is today, the United States, so the first
[00:05:20] century after independence was the
[00:05:23] century of genocide,
[00:05:26] conquest and settler colonialism, which is
[00:05:30] what made this country and both
[00:05:33] its physical borders, but also its
[00:05:37] culture, its institutions were all
[00:05:41] formed in that first. century of setler colonialism.
[00:05:45] Miss Chomsky, from mass killings to the destruction of
[00:05:48] indigenous languages and traditions, how did colonial
[00:05:52] policies target both indigenous lives and
[00:05:55] identities?
[00:06:00] um, well, first of all, the the
[00:06:03] attempt was to clear the land, um, to
[00:06:07] make room for white
[00:06:11] settlement, and access to the resources the and
[00:06:14] access to the resources the land,
[00:06:18] but it was logical project to justify this,
[00:06:22] so it goes along with
[00:06:25] virulent anti-native racism
[00:06:28] a an
[00:06:31] explanation that indigenous
[00:06:35] people are backward and primitive and destined
[00:06:38] to die out under the advance of white suprema.
[00:06:42] see a justification for that, um, and then
[00:06:46] deliberate attempts not only to kill people, but another
[00:06:50] aspect of genocide is to um
[00:06:54] destroy and undermine and erase people's
[00:06:57] culture, so even after most the military
[00:07:01] campaigns had ended by the end the 19th century, that
[00:07:05] is after one century of of um
[00:07:08] genocide through um mass murder.
[00:07:13] comes the cultural genocide, the creation the boarding
[00:07:16] school system, which the
[00:07:20] reservation system, the boarding school system, which forces children,
[00:07:24] parents to give up their children and children to be educated, to
[00:07:27] learn how to be not indigenous
[00:07:30] people,
[00:07:34] and cultural genocide that goes through the late 20th century, and in many
[00:07:38] ways still continues, if you think about what children are taught in the public
[00:07:42] school, what textbooks say, what popular media
[00:07:45] says, and even what our president is saying now,
[00:07:49] as um, there has been debate in the United States about how
[00:07:53] we celebrate Columbus Day and what it means, and there's been a
[00:07:57] strong movement in many parts the country and among many different
[00:08:01] groups to rename the day indigenous people's day, and to
[00:08:05] tell a more um complete and
[00:08:08] complex story of what Conquest meant,
[00:08:12] but uh president um Trump is obviously highly
[00:08:16] opposed to that, he thinks of that as wokeness, and
[00:08:20] um, his statements last night were
[00:08:22] that, we are always going to celebrate the
[00:08:26] greatness of Columbus, so so that narrative, that settler
[00:08:30] colonial narrative is still being very that is an eraser of
[00:08:34] indigenous peoples and another aspect the
[00:08:37] genocide of indigenous peoples is still very prominent in the United
[00:08:41] States. Right. me to bring in Miss Alana Traverse into the
[00:08:44] conversation here, Miss Traverse, for centuries indigenous
[00:08:48] peoples have faced land disposition and forced removal
[00:08:52] of children from their families, among other things of course, to what
[00:08:56] extent have these historical injustices been addressed
[00:09:00] and how do they continue to shape today's struggles over tribal
[00:09:04] sovereignty, land rights and protection of indigenous communities and
[00:09:07] rights. Thank you, hi everybody, yeah, thanks for
[00:09:11] inviting me. i think it's quite clearly that they do
[00:09:15] continue and they have continued and i think the
[00:09:19] structure of that um abuse and historical
[00:09:22] injustice is very clear to see across the world and and
[00:09:26] particularly by the United
[00:09:29] States. um, i'm not sure if you said the
[00:09:32] beginning, but my research is on algorithmic warfare and civilian
[00:09:36] harm and i'm incredibly interested in how that's being
[00:09:40] felt, perceived, experienced. uh particularly in Iran, I would
[00:09:44] love to to connect with more people in in in the region, please
[00:09:48] feel free to reach out to me. um, and I think actually the point I wanted to
[00:09:52] make in in regards to this question is that actually
[00:09:56] it's completely almost replicable
[00:09:59] if we're thinking about modern algorithmic warfare, um, the same
[00:10:03] kind of abstraction, abuse,
[00:10:06] profiling, um, by military
[00:10:09] systems, specifically by the... the current US
[00:10:13] military um, but also you other countries, including
[00:10:17] the UK, um, developing this
[00:10:19] technology, integrating this
[00:10:21] technology, it's incredibly concerning and...
[00:10:25] think on the other hand, you still have that sort of struggle and
[00:10:29] that resistance um, kind of containing
[00:10:33] struggle to be, sovereign i guess against that kind of
[00:10:36] legal abstraction, and and then obviously we have sort of very
[00:10:40] physical um manifestations of that too,
[00:10:44] yeah right, miss chomsky, washington
[00:10:48] condemns alleged abuses abroad and while
[00:10:51] overlooking obviously its own history, how does selective historic? could
[00:10:55] memory shape US's foreign policy today, you
[00:10:58] think? um, I would say both foreign
[00:11:02] policy and domestic policy that
[00:11:05] is um, there's several
[00:11:09] studies that have called the US
[00:11:12] wars against indigenous people, the first way of
[00:11:16] war, and have looked at how all wars that the
[00:11:20] United States has fought since its founding have been Indian
[00:11:24] wars, that is... def the dehumanization the enemies, the
[00:11:27] calls for total destruction the peoples who we are
[00:11:31] fighting, the targeting of civilians, um, that that has
[00:11:35] been absolutely characteristic the idea that the
[00:11:39] United States represents good, and whoever it is that
[00:11:43] we are fighting represents evil and barbarism and just need to
[00:11:47] be totally destroyed, and I think we hear that also in President
[00:11:50] Trump's
[00:11:54] um uh uh... language about Iran um and we also see
[00:11:58] it in talking about Gaza that is
[00:12:01] the this settler colonial ideology that the people who live there just need to
[00:12:05] be eliminated so that you and US investors can go in
[00:12:09] and bring their modern technology and progress and
[00:12:13] create a white utopia on the land of a
[00:12:17] white utopia for investors that is um on the
[00:12:21] lands where they have slaughtered and eliminated the population.
[00:12:27] Mr. Chomsing, would like to turn to Palestine for second here,
[00:12:30] where do you see the most significant parallels between the
[00:12:34] disposition of native Americans and the displacement of
[00:12:38] Palestinians today?
[00:12:41] Um, there are lots of very obvious
[00:12:44] parallels, that is the idea that white
[00:12:48] Europeans are the superior people, and
[00:12:52] that the people who live a territory. uh have no
[00:12:55] rights and um no rights to be
[00:12:59] there, no political rights, um, and
[00:13:03] that the the people who bring progress and as the
[00:13:06] Israelis say, make the desert bloom, are European
[00:13:10] foreigners who are going to come in with their um
[00:13:13] technology and bring superiority and remake a place
[00:13:17] without the people who um are living there
[00:13:21] when they arrived um and obviously the...
[00:13:25] um, the US relationship with Israel is, it has
[00:13:29] many different facets and many different reasons, but certainly the
[00:13:33] ideological compatibility the settler project
[00:13:37] is a big piece behind it. right,
[00:13:41] Alana, on indigenous people's day, what concrete steps do you
[00:13:44] think the US government should take to address these historical
[00:13:48] wrongs and from honoring treaty obligations and returning land
[00:13:52] to preserving um indigenous cultures and what accountability
[00:13:55] mechanisms could turn public recognition into meaningful
[00:13:59] justice, actually um, well if
[00:14:03] you're speaking about yeah the past for sure there's of
[00:14:07] course uh
[00:14:08] you know there legal obligations and we're thinking about reparations,
[00:14:12] it's something the UK government is being called up on
[00:14:15] increasingly, there's a great project in palestine as well
[00:14:19] working, i sort of prepared to speak also a bit more about current
[00:14:22] injustices and trying to prevent. and mitigate
[00:14:26] uh harms uh at the moment as well, if that's of interest to
[00:14:30] your listeners and viewers um on
[00:14:34] like AI warfare, autonomous weapons, but if that's a little
[00:14:37] bit separate and we free to to ignore that,
[00:14:41] guess
[00:14:42] the the common thread if i was to go into that is that even under these
[00:14:45] things and conventional conventional weapons
[00:14:48] which is has review conference next next month in Geneva
[00:14:52] trying to to to possibly...
[00:14:55] get get agreement to proceed to talks a treaty um
[00:14:59] is actually being stifled by the US uh, you know,
[00:15:03] 130 states want some kind of
[00:15:06] treaty um setting limits or prohibiting
[00:15:09] this - lethal autonomous weapons, killer
[00:15:13] robots, that kind of threat that people can be killed now
[00:15:16] without human being making that
[00:15:18] decision, you know, obviously the
[00:15:22] US could be being more proactive, but it's hiding. i think behind
[00:15:26] it international humanitarian law kind of get
[00:15:29] out um and ultimately along with Russia and along with
[00:15:33] China seeking military leverage about.
[00:15:37] of uh actually building something that could meaningfully hopefully
[00:15:41] protect human beings into the future, not just thinking about the harm that's
[00:15:45] been caused in the past and that's incredibly concerning, i
[00:15:49] think it should be a concern to all of us that um something is
[00:15:53] fundamentally awful as you know killer
[00:15:57] robots is not even
[00:15:59] being uh
[00:16:02] prevented um so that's one example and then of course
[00:16:06] you could give ' more examples of on treaties and and
[00:16:10] you now law that it's that's quite literally being
[00:16:14] broken and ripped up and rewritten in front of our eyes by by the current
[00:16:18] US administration um of course
[00:16:21] yeah the great comments there on gaza the same
[00:16:25] things happening and of course
[00:16:27] you know by by the IDF and the Israeli government currently and I
[00:16:31] think it somehow as vagas this sounds that trying to make the
[00:16:34] connections between past you thinking about
[00:16:38] indigenous people's day and then current
[00:16:41] abuses, it just seems so clearly
[00:16:44] relatable to me, but maybe it's also in, but maybe
[00:16:48] it's also in as dark as it is, it's
[00:16:52] quite val, disturbed by this for very very long,
[00:16:56] disturbed by this for very very long time, and
[00:16:58] I hope more people are being able to also see and make those
[00:17:01] connections um themselves and I'd be very
[00:17:05] happy to talk to to you more or any... He wants to reach out to me.
[00:17:09] Right, allow me to bring in Miss Chomsky into the conversation. Mr. Miss
[00:17:13] Chomsky, how do settlement expansion, land confiscation
[00:17:16] and restrictions on movement help us understand settler
[00:17:20] colonialism as a continuing political process rather than
[00:17:24] merely a historical
[00:17:25] episode.
[00:17:31] Um, well, I would say there's several different ways that we see it playing
[00:17:35] out in the United States today. One is: with foreign policy, as we
[00:17:39] were just talking about, that is the ideologies that justify
[00:17:42] settler expansion, um, and
[00:17:45] the uh, the military
[00:17:49] strategies of settler expansion, um, still
[00:17:53] inform US foreign policy. um, the
[00:17:57] second area would be extractivism, and again we see
[00:18:01] that is native lands need to be made available
[00:18:04] for profit making. industrial
[00:18:08] extraction for the benefit of non-indigenous
[00:18:12] people, and we see that happening both inside the United States, that
[00:18:16] is native lands are still being taken for
[00:18:20] extractive industries in the United States as well as
[00:18:23] by US companies around the world, with this
[00:18:27] idea that indigenous peoples um aren't productively
[00:18:31] enough using their land, so it is justified for for
[00:18:35] people to go in and ' extract the resources of those
[00:18:39] lands. um, and finally, I
[00:18:42] also see it in U.S. immigration policy, that is
[00:18:46] most the immigrants who are being targeted
[00:18:50] right now, uh, and uh, I mean, the very
[00:18:53] idea that national borders need to restrict freedom of
[00:18:57] movement, um, we, it's, it's a kind of
[00:19:01] a global apartide system that the United States is
[00:19:05] enforcing that, um,
[00:19:09] people, predominantly people of color,
[00:19:12] people from the former colonies, even if the colonies are now
[00:19:15] independent, um, that the United States thinks of all of those
[00:19:19] people as indigenous people, a way, people of color who do
[00:19:23] not have a right to be in this country, and if they
[00:19:27] are, they need to be rounded up and detained, and
[00:19:30] that only white people should have freedom of movement, um, and
[00:19:34] that white people's mobility is something that all of us policies need
[00:19:38] to promote, and the mobility of people of color is something that all of
[00:19:42] our policies need to restrict, so in the
[00:19:46] border regime and the immigrant detention regime, I see very strong
[00:19:49] echos the reservations, the boarding
[00:19:53] schools, the genocides of indigenous peoples, and um,
[00:19:57] not to mention the fact that many the people coming from Latin America right now
[00:20:01] are in fact indigenous peoples. Right, Alana,
[00:20:05] why do some colonial atrocities? receive um
[00:20:08] widespread international recognition while others remain
[00:20:12] marginal in public education and also political
[00:20:14] debate. think i mean that's
[00:20:18] a brilliant question. i think
[00:20:20] a lot of
[00:20:23] it in my opinion is also based on
[00:20:26] who people sort of
[00:20:30] connect with or understand or have opportunities to learn
[00:20:34] from and of course you know the simple answer. probably
[00:20:38] the broad answer to your question is obviously racism and and the
[00:20:42] fact that
[00:20:42] you know people do inherently
[00:20:45] sympathizes um
[00:20:48] you dramatically with communities
[00:20:52] that they have already maybe come into contact with or feel like they understand
[00:20:55] more or um have kind of some kind of
[00:20:59] connection with and i think for
[00:21:03] obviously very many reasons that's deeply dangerous and destructive and
[00:21:07] we've seen the consequences of how you even that
[00:21:11] kind of separation can th
[00:21:12] need to humanization that can need to genocide um it can also
[00:21:16] lead you see we've seen i don't even how many...
[00:21:20] examples i could give you, but even in just the last few years,
[00:21:24] like um, probably virus will remember you
[00:21:27] the the russian invasion of Ukraine, and and of course
[00:21:31] that you know it's
[00:21:33] a terrible thing. was in um mosul at the
[00:21:36] time on
[00:21:37] the on the day, i remember speaking
[00:21:39] to to irakis and they're so so sympathetic, they've already been invaded,
[00:21:43] they understand, there was this solidarity, and i think
[00:21:47] what kind of upset people the most... including myself
[00:21:51] is also how like the media coverage the the
[00:21:54] invasion particularly i have today by us
[00:21:58] outlets was incredibly racist
[00:22:02] um and quite sort of referred to other states or people a very
[00:22:05] humanizing way so i remember some agents
[00:22:09] saying you this is a civilized society talking
[00:22:12] about kief and actually in
[00:22:16] friends
[00:22:17] who who are watching that in in in Baghdad saying to me
[00:22:20] how how outrageous and unfair and and so I think the thing that probably
[00:22:24] hurts in this quite almost more destructive is the fact that of course
[00:22:28] everyone sees the double standards you don't you can't really hide
[00:22:31] that um that's a very longwinded answer to
[00:22:35] say of course it's structural of course it's
[00:22:39] racism but it's also this this disconnection that we
[00:22:42] maybe have from each other and that's something that I think we're seeing more and more and more and more
[00:22:46] if I keep laboring the point but with algorithmic warfare. and
[00:22:50] it's not only the you know the on the military
[00:22:54] side, not seeing the human or the civilian or the civilian
[00:22:58] populations now, as I'm trying to try and write and explore more about
[00:23:01] having to almost show their civilian status as opposed to
[00:23:05] that being an obligation on military and how disturbing and horrific that
[00:23:09] is as well and dehumanizing and psychologically you
[00:23:13] know horrendous, but it's making
[00:23:17] us all more do human. organized in the sense
[00:23:21] that we are, even among lawyers, IHL lawyers,
[00:23:24] activists, well-meaning people are struggling to
[00:23:28] engage, I think with civilian
[00:23:31] harm caused by AI or algorithmic
[00:23:35] warfare or this kind of disperate way of conducting the same
[00:23:39] harm that's always been conducted, but through different mechanism, and we're
[00:23:43] all so focused now on the process as opposed to the
[00:23:46] consequence,
[00:23:47] and I think that's something we all need to think about
[00:23:49] and all check. because that shouldn't that should not
[00:23:53] be excuse and of course we can go and talk about the menab school strike and
[00:23:56] others, but the fact that so many of my in, i think
[00:24:00] profession have have jumped on that as a way to say no, it can't
[00:24:04] possibly have been a war crime, because because there was no intent or
[00:24:07] because the us didn't you know it was the technology and you
[00:24:11] know or uh of course feasible precautions weren't taken,
[00:24:15] but that's not necessarily the point the military, that's you know what what
[00:24:19] about this? what about maven? what about the wrong targeting
[00:24:22] data? right? actually, we don't know that for sure. the US
[00:24:26] doesn't come out with investigation. why are we so quick to jump on
[00:24:30] this idea that it wasn't a war crime? i don't think there's a
[00:24:34] single parent in mark who believes that was an
[00:24:37] AI accident. lot of people still don't even particularly understand how this
[00:24:41] technology works. like i spoke to another person recently
[00:24:45] whose family were who who found out the strike
[00:24:49] um again. the sun in Iraq may or may not have
[00:24:52] been uh result of AI decision support
[00:24:55] system um this yeah this thing called may the smart system and
[00:24:59] they're saying well what are they you know and okay that's
[00:25:03] a very sort of an example of of having to sort of think
[00:25:07] about explaining that but it's a very good question
[00:25:11] because for people on the receiving end of this it's not
[00:25:15] stratch it's not algorithmic it's not AI it's still you
[00:25:18] know um myself, guess my point is, i think
[00:25:22] we all need to think about how talking about current
[00:25:25] harm, to not fall into the historic patterns of
[00:25:29] harm, and i've really value the opportunity to think and talk
[00:25:32] about um on indigenous people's day, because do see these
[00:25:36] patterns being repeated, and hope i've explained it a way that's not too
[00:25:40] abstract, but i'm very keen to again, like i said, connect with people and
[00:25:44] Aron and please reach out to me, um, and also it's lovely
[00:25:47] to yeah, hear
[00:25:48] the the other speaker, thank you, for me
[00:25:52] right, miss anana travers, miss Aviva Chomsky, it was
[00:25:56] indeed a pleasure to have you both on this special occasion and on this
[00:26:00] rolling coverage and with that we come to... conclusion of this part, but let us
[00:26:04] continue a rolling coverage the indigenous people's day by
[00:26:07] reviewing the US atrocities against other nations, the ones that
[00:26:11] resemble the crimes against the indigenous people, from attack
[00:26:15] hitting a school in the southern city of Minab, as my guest just
[00:26:19] explained to an act of aggression a sports hall in Lamed to
[00:26:23] a strike targeting a wedding party in Sirick, the recent us Israely
[00:26:27] war on Iran contains manifestations the definition of
[00:26:31] crimes against humanity. One of those attacks was a strike under Denna
[00:26:34] Frigate in international waters that killed more than 100
[00:26:38] people. Let us now watch an interview with an Iranian woman whose
[00:26:42] husband Bahman Isfandi was about the warship and was
[00:26:46] killed in the attack.
[00:26:49] Hello and welcome. It was on March the 4th this year that the Iranian
[00:26:53] navy frigate IRS Dana was torpedoed
[00:26:57] and sunk by the US military in the Indian Ocean. The
[00:27:01] attack was launched and the US in his roody war in Iran, it took the lives
[00:27:05] of over 100 crew members, this act of
[00:27:08] aggression was among a serious of US war crimes against
[00:27:12] Iranians, now in our studio we are hosting the wife
[00:27:16] of an Iranian sailor who was killed in this
[00:27:18] attack, um, Miss Malihe Pahlewanizade,
[00:27:22] wife to murtered Bahman Espandieri, thank you so much for your
[00:27:26] time today, my first question is, the dinner worship
[00:27:30] entered the international waters, at the invitation the Indian
[00:27:34] army to participate in this training exercise. It
[00:27:38] is important to note that the ship's primary purpose was
[00:27:42] training and participation in this
[00:27:44] exercise. Um, in fact, they were
[00:27:48] there just at the invitation the Indian army, again I want
[00:27:51] emphasize in this point, please explain the attack to us
[00:27:55] and what happened on that day and what you have been going through
[00:27:59] ever since. Bismillahirrahmanirrahim.
[00:28:12] merciful, as you mentioned, my husband took
[00:28:17] the the part official most invitation review international 2026 in fleet exercise at the Indian
[00:28:21] Navy for a peace and friendship drill, but unfortunately
[00:28:25] the main issue is that while our husbands had gone there for
[00:28:29] training and to enhance scientific and maritime skills.
[00:28:33] "they were faced not with a military confrontation, but
[00:28:37] with what i believe was a war crime. why a war
[00:28:40] crime? because under international law and
[00:28:43] conventions, training vessels are not supposed to be
[00:28:47] targeted. our husbands had gone there to improve their professional
[00:28:51] skills, yet they came under attack. this
[00:28:55] shows that the enemy knows no limits in its aggression
[00:28:59] and it's willing to target even the real..." knowledge and
[00:29:03] peace, and it doesn't matter what the target is,
[00:29:07] their only goal is destruction and achieving their objectives
[00:29:10] even at the cost of violating international
[00:29:13] law. I lost my husband a mission of
[00:29:16] peace. I have six-year-old son who cannot
[00:29:20] understand why this happened in a world where a child should be living
[00:29:24] in peace and security, immersed in the joys of
[00:29:28] childhood, he's face with one heartbreaking
[00:29:31] question: "if dad went away for training and a piece
[00:29:35] exercise, then why was he killed? and
[00:29:39] honestly, i have no answers for him. as a
[00:29:42] wife of a martered sailor, i am faced with a profound
[00:29:46] injustice, violation of principles and laws
[00:29:50] that he simply cannot comprehend. unfortunately, our
[00:29:53] husbands had gone there for training, but instead they became
[00:29:57] victims of a war crime and betrayal of gas who
[00:30:01] had come.
[00:30:13] and we had other similar attacks uh on the first day the war on
[00:30:17] the school in the city of minob that killed
[00:30:19] 168 civilians on the first day the
[00:30:23] war, february 28th, most of those people were
[00:30:27] killed were children. um, despite these acts of
[00:30:30] aggression, Iran stood...