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20260915 220000 UTC
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[00:03:46] Hello, an excellent evening to you, on air, News 19 hours is starting, as it
[00:03:50] couldn't be otherwise, very hot news. The Supreme Federal
[00:03:53] Court began to evaluate today whether it will investigate Minister Alexandre de
[00:03:57] Moraes for an alleged exchange of messages with... former banker Daniel
[00:04:02] political electoral bias in the way the Vorcaro, but the session, as you followed throughout our programming,
[00:04:04] just ended and without a conclusion. Minister Flávio Dino
[00:04:08] asked for an adjournment while the score was 4 to 3 to maintain the
[00:04:12] division of the judgments of the actions against Mendonça also
[00:04:15] against Moraes. We're going live to Brasília, to talk to reporter
[00:04:19] Paloma Carvalho, who has the information about this
[00:04:21] judgment. Paloma, a great night to you, what a
[00:04:25] Tuesday.
[00:04:31] Really, really an intense day here in the Federal
[00:04:34] District, here in Brasília, but more specifically in the Supreme Federal
[00:04:37] Court, with this extraordinary session called by
[00:04:41] Minister André Mendonça, Edson Fachin,
[00:04:44] in fact, who is the president of the Supreme Federal Court,
[00:04:48] right, Rafa? And, as you well said, Minister Flávio Dino made the
[00:04:52] request for an adjournment, and now he has 90 days to better analyze this
[00:04:56] case, and this judgment was suspended, a judgment that would
[00:04:59] address... this alleged close relationship
[00:05:03] between Minister Alexandre de Moraes and former banker Danielar. So what
[00:05:06] happened? When this judgment resumed at
[00:05:10] 3:30 in the afternoon, because it started at 10:30 in the morning, so
[00:05:13] it was a very tense atmosphere, arguing between some ministers, a
[00:05:17] really tense atmosphere, and when they returned to
[00:05:20] the judgment around 3:30 in the afternoon, Minister Flávio Dino
[00:05:24] argued that Moraes's case should be analyzed and
[00:05:28] judged together with Minister André
[00:05:31] Mendonça, that is, on next September 23rd. So
[00:05:33] it would be the analysis, the analysis of the alleged relationship between
[00:05:37] Minister Alexandre de Moraes and former banker Daniel Vorcaro, with that Federal
[00:05:41] Police report. The intelligence report that exposed those
[00:05:45] message exchanges, right, those 52 messages
[00:05:48] sent by the former banker to Minister Alexandre de Moraes,
[00:05:52] and also the conduct of Minister André Mendonça in relation
[00:05:55] to the Master case. So during the judgment, what happened? Minister
[00:05:59] Flávio Dino sent an official letter to Minister Gilmar
[00:06:03] Mendes asking him to take the necessary measures,
[00:06:06] because Minister and President of the Supreme Federal Court,
[00:06:09] Edson Fachin, was infringing the
[00:06:12] internal rules of the Supreme Federal Court and even the Federal
[00:06:16] Constitution by conducting this case irregularly.
[00:06:19] So he sent a
[00:06:23] statement, an official letter to Minister Gilmar Mendes asking
[00:06:26] for the postponement of this judgment to September 23rd, the
[00:06:29] merging of the two cases, both that of Minister André Mendonça
[00:06:33] and that of Minister Alexandre de Moraes. What happened
[00:06:36] shortly after? Minister Gilmar Mendes accepted this
[00:06:39] statement, accepted Minister Flávio Dino's position and...
[00:06:43] made a point of order, so for this
[00:06:46] vote on the point of order, who voted on
[00:06:49] this point of order? Minister Gilmar Mendes voted for the judgment to
[00:06:53] be postponed to the 23rd, to join the two
[00:06:57] cases. Gilmar Mendes was accompanied by Ministers
[00:07:00] Cristiano Zanin, Alexandre de Moraes, precisely to
[00:07:04] join the two cases and postpone the judgment to the
[00:07:07] 23rd. The president, Minister
[00:07:10] Edson Fachin of the Supreme Court, he voted for
[00:07:13] the two cases to be separated, really, that the
[00:07:17] judgment be separated, both that of Minister André Mendonça,
[00:07:21] and that of Minister Alexandre de Moraes. The vote of
[00:07:24] Minister Edson Fachin was accompanied by Ministers Luiz Fux
[00:07:28] and Minister André Mendonça. Minister Cármen Lúcia, in
[00:07:32] her vote, in her speech, which was truly
[00:07:35] sad, Minister Cármen Lúcia apologized to the Brazilian
[00:07:38] people, said she was ashamed of... this
[00:07:42] situation that has been happening in the Supreme Federal Court, which is experiencing
[00:07:46] its biggest crisis in history, right, which must decide, define
[00:07:50] whether it will really open an investigation against Minister Alexandre
[00:07:54] de Moraes within these messages, these alleged
[00:07:57] messages exchanged with the former banker Daniel
[00:08:00] Vorcaro. Now, the ministers, Dias Toffoli
[00:08:03] said he is suspicious, did not participate
[00:08:06] in the vote due to privileged forum. Minister
[00:08:09] Cássio Nunes Marques said he could not also participate, said he did not
[00:08:13] feel comfortable because he presides over the Superior
[00:08:17] Electoral Court, and also defended himself saying that there was never an
[00:08:20] exchange of messages between him and former banker Daniel
[00:08:24] Vorcaro. So, just to conclude, what was the
[00:08:27] score? So, this assessment is from
[00:08:30] our reporter Gabriela Coelho: a 4 to
[00:08:34] 3 score to judge Moraes on the 23rd, so they voted to
[00:08:38] judge everything together, to combine these two
[00:08:41] and Alexandre de Moraes's. The ministers
[00:08:45] Alexandre de Moraes participated in this vote, voted to combine the
[00:08:48] two cases and postpone the judgment to the 23rd, Minister
[00:08:51] Cristiano Zanin, Gilmar Mendes and Flávio Dino, but
[00:08:55] the vote of Minister Flávio Dino is not
[00:08:58] counted, since he made the request for an adjournment and has 90 days to
[00:09:02] analyze the case. Now, to separate the
[00:09:05] judgments, the minister and president of the Supreme Court,
[00:09:08] Edson Fachin, Minister Cármen Lúcia, Minister André Mendonça,
[00:09:12] and Minister Luiz Fux voted. So, on the
[00:09:15] 23rd, we will follow the judgment of
[00:09:18] Minister André Mendonça, because the ministers of the Supreme Court
[00:09:22] have not even entered into the merits of the issue in
[00:09:25] relation to the mass case, these messages, right, alleged
[00:09:28] messages exchanged between Minister Alexandre de Moraes, he
[00:09:31] suspended, right, Flávio Dino, Minister Edson Fachin
[00:09:34] suspended this judgment, this extraordinary session, since
[00:09:38] Minister Flávio Dino requested an adjournment. So
[00:09:41] it was really... a very tense judgment, Rafael. Ministers
[00:09:45] exchanged barbs, Minister André Mendonça and Minister Alexandre de
[00:09:49] Moraes in the morning, regarding the Federal Police's actions.
[00:09:52] Minister André, eh Alexandre de Moraes even
[00:09:56] asked André Mendonça who would be afraid of the Federal
[00:09:59] Police. So it really was a, a kind of,
[00:10:03] I don't know, we could say, open quotation marks, a washing
[00:10:07] of dirty laundry, you know? It really was a very tense atmosphere among the ministers,
[00:10:10] President Edson Fachin always there trying to conduct it in the best
[00:10:14] way possible, and of course we will continue following it because the score is
[00:10:18] 4 to 3. I'm back with you, Paloma, thank you for the
[00:10:21] information. It was one of those sessions, we had two poles
[00:10:25] that we cannot ignore, very strong statements coming from
[00:10:29] Minister Gilmar Mendes, his statements were the most tense and
[00:10:32] delicate moments. And already at the beginning in the morning, what we saw,
[00:10:36] at least Flávio Dino also being very clear,
[00:10:39] very incisive with President Edson Fachin
[00:10:42] and questioning the attitude of changing the
[00:10:46] rapporteurships, anyway, we, of course, continue following, this will be the central
[00:10:49] theme of our newspaper, any other information, just let us know, good
[00:10:59] bickering, as I was just talking to Paloma, Alexandre de Moraes, André
[00:11:03] Mendonça, they even sat
[00:11:06] dynamic of the Supreme Court there, they interrupted each other several
[00:11:09] times, on one occasion Moraes again accused Mendonça of irregularities
[00:11:13] in the conduct of these investigations. Mendonça reacted to the
[00:11:16] provocations, and as I said,
[00:11:19] President, it's very easy, it's very
[00:11:23] easy to know if what is in the intelligence
[00:11:27] report is true or not, just
[00:11:30] summon the witnesses, and why is that? all
[00:11:34] over the world, all over the world, intelligence
[00:11:37] reports are treated
[00:11:40] as means of obtaining evidence, just like plea
[00:11:44] bargains. Minister André is absolutely
[00:11:47] right, an intelligence report is not
[00:11:50] evidence, it's not a means of obtaining evidence, it's not even... just
[00:11:53] call, just
[00:11:57] call the police officers who participated
[00:12:00] and who several and several times
[00:12:03] affirmed that Minister
[00:12:06] André inquired and requested that I be included in the
[00:12:10] investigation, my goodness, and here, President, here it's
[00:12:14] also important to say here that the fact is
[00:12:17] objective, my goodness, Minister André just
[00:12:21] said that the Federal Police sent data...
[00:12:25] eh about eventually the Prosecutor General
[00:12:29] and from that it arose, isn't
[00:12:33] that right, President? There was another tense
[00:12:36] moment in this session, the clash between Ministers André
[00:12:40] Mendonça and Gilmar Mendes. It was precisely during
[00:12:43] this discussion, around 6 PM,
[00:12:47] that Minister Flávio Dino then asked for an adjournment. Nobody would like to
[00:12:51] be here, we are here by duty.
[00:12:55] And so we can even evaluate if, oh, I shouldn't have done
[00:12:59] that, maybe today knowing the facts, it's impressive,
[00:13:02] President, that a person eh of the
[00:13:04] stature of the stature of
[00:13:07] Paulo, of Paulo Guedes, suffers this kind
[00:13:11] of insinuation. This yes, is
[00:13:14] frivolous. This yes, is
[00:13:16] frivolous. The subject invested with a
[00:13:20] policing sentiment along with
[00:13:23] his delegates, now I have the floor.
[00:13:28] It's impressive,
[00:13:30] it's impressive the blatant dishonesty of this subject, ah,
[00:13:34] the blatant dishonesty of your Excellency, Minister André.
[00:13:37] Respect me, Minister André. It's no joke, I'm not crying
[00:13:40] here, Minister, no crying here, Minister Fachin,
[00:13:44] respect Minister Fachin. If your Excellency, with all due respect, I need
[00:13:47] just one minute, Minister, I'm going to
[00:13:50] ask for an adjournment, no, I'm going to, I just need
[00:13:53] to clarify
[00:13:55] in this way we will, Minister Fachin, Minister Fachin,
[00:13:59] please, so you can understand a little of the mood of what we
[00:14:02] followed today, there was another moment, an exchange of barbs between Gilmar Mendes
[00:14:06] criticizing the selective secrecy of the documents of these
[00:14:09] investigations, he accused a political bias in the conduct
[00:14:13] of the decisions of his colleague André Mendonça, a delicate
[00:14:16] moment. Even the stones
[00:14:20] know
[00:14:23] that there is an unequivocal
[00:14:27] issue was conducted in the records of this PC of
[00:14:30] 1662 50 with all
[00:14:33] sincerity choice of date September
[00:14:37] 7th all this
[00:14:39] scenario
[00:14:43] involving this court in an election campaign, Your Excellency is being frivolous,
[00:14:46] Minister, frivolous, unduly frivolous.
[00:14:49] Frivolous. You don't have the floor, eh, let's
[00:14:53] wait, I will grant Your Excellency the floor. Your Excellency does not have the floor,
[00:14:57] Minister Gilmar, to conclude and will listen with
[00:14:58] tranquility.
[00:15:02] Evident political-electoral
[00:15:05] conduct, choice of September 7th,
[00:15:08] even bichulecos,
[00:15:13] this is not done, decent people don't do
[00:15:17] this, don't point fingers at me, Minister
[00:15:20] Gilmar, don't point fingers, you're not talking to just
[00:15:24] anyone, respect this court, whoever doesn't respect themselves doesn't
[00:15:27] deserve respect. The session had several questions about
[00:15:31] the rites that were adopted, with these criticisms involving,
[00:15:34] especially at the beginning of the session, around 10:30 AM.
[00:15:38] All the criticisms at that time involved Minister Edson, who is presiding over the
[00:15:42] Court at this moment. Minister Alexandre de Moraes alleged that there was no
[00:15:46] request for him to be investigated. He argued that this
[00:15:49] session would be dedicated to an evaluation of the PGR's request
[00:15:52] for nullity and also the extinction of this
[00:15:56] petition. The president of the Court, Edson Fachin,
[00:15:58] responded. First of all, regarding the delimitation
[00:16:02] of the object that I tried to do when
[00:16:06] I was concluding the report this morning, I
[00:16:11] topic, in fact I read the integral opinion of the
[00:16:14] PGR, all these terms that Your Excellency referred to,
[00:16:18] were by me, I, I didn't want to repeat so as not to be tiresome, right, from
[00:16:21] the prosecutor's office, no, but feel free and
[00:16:24] eh, therefore, that there is a raising of nullity
[00:16:27] and with the acceptance of the nullity, this leads
[00:16:31] to extinction, therefore, this plenary
[00:16:35] needs to examine this matter, there is no doubt whatsoever...
[00:16:38] if hypothetically the plenary
[00:16:41] does not accept this nullity, what is
[00:16:44] the consequence? I understood
[00:16:47] that as I received a referral to
[00:16:51] bring to the plenary in the terms,
[00:16:53] considering when then
[00:16:57] Minister André Mendonça was the
[00:17:00] rapporteur, that the information
[00:17:03] brought by the Federal Police in the report that is here
[00:17:06] in question... would be able to prompt the adoption
[00:17:10] of a proper procedural modality given the necessary
[00:17:14] observance of the rule contained in Article 5, paragraph 1, therefore
[00:17:17] the competence of the full court for what? Here
[00:17:21] Article 30, 33, alias
[00:17:24] of the sole paragraph, which is what I
[00:17:27] took into account, says: when in the course of
[00:17:30] an investigation there are indications of the practice of a crime by a
[00:17:34] magistrate, police authority, civil or military, it shall refer
[00:17:37] the respective records to the court, the special competent body for the
[00:17:41] judgment, in order to proceed with the investigation, that is, the
[00:17:45] court, if it does not
[00:17:47] accept the preliminary raised by the
[00:17:50] PGR, will decide, in my opinion, it needs to
[00:17:53] decide what the consequence will be, it can be those
[00:17:57] that Your Excellency is indicating. In the interpretation that
[00:18:01] I made, if the court does not accept the preliminary,
[00:18:04] it would be up to the court to say: I authorize, or I do
[00:18:08] not authorize the continuation of the investigation, and that is why
[00:18:12] when I delimited the object, I made reference to these two
[00:18:15] circumstances, the court needs to decide on the
[00:18:17] preliminary and, by rejecting the
[00:18:21] preliminary, it eventually needs to decide what it will do. In my opinion,
[00:18:24] the court, the plenary in this
[00:18:28] case would say: the investigation proceeds, or for
[00:18:31] some other reason the investigation does not
[00:18:34] proceed. You must remember that when the
[00:18:37] Federal Police issued those reports that were then delivered
[00:18:41] to Minister André Mendonça's cabinet, two names were
[00:18:44] mentioned. We have something that would be a reference to the
[00:18:48] Prosecutor General of the Republic, and we also had the
[00:18:51] Director General of the Federal Police, who was even removed. The PGR
[00:18:55] was present at today's session, spoke a little
[00:18:58] more about the accusations that were made,
[00:19:01] lamented this assimilation that was made of his image and a
[00:19:05] proximity with former banker Daniel.
[00:19:09] "There is no, nor did I
[00:19:12] have a close relationship with Mr. Vorcaro. The only
[00:19:16] encounter I had with Mr.
[00:19:19] Vorcaro took place with several authorities in
[00:19:22] April 2024. The only
[00:19:26] contact mediated by a
[00:19:29] lawyer was very brief and
[00:19:32] trivial." We are now going live with images from
[00:19:36] Brasília, 20.4 degrees there. To tune into Record News
[00:19:39] when you are watching our channel
[00:19:42] from there, just put it on channel 46 on your open TV to watch all our
[00:19:46] programming for free. I'm going for a short break and I'll be back soon
[00:19:50] to bring more information about what happens from then on with the
[00:19:53] request for an adjournment by Minister Dino and what rite should be followed,
[00:19:57] including for next week, the 23rd, to analyze
[00:20:00] this moment that happens with Minister André Mendonça. Don't go away, it's right
[00:20:04] after the break.
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[00:24:46] News 19 hours is back to discuss the debate we had today
[00:24:50] in the plenary of the Supreme Federal Court regarding the judgment of Minister
[00:24:53] Alexandre de Moraes in the Supreme Federal Court. We are now going to talk
[00:24:57] with Flávio de Leão Bastos, Professor of Constitutional Law at
[00:25:01] Presbyterian Mackenzie University. Professor, a great
[00:25:04] evening, it's a pleasure to have you
[00:25:06] here with us.
[00:25:09] Good evening, thank you all for the invitation and
[00:25:12] greetings to the Record News viewers. Professor, I wanted to start our
[00:25:16] interview by explaining to those at home from this
[00:25:20] moment, we have a decision that initially, when we heard
[00:25:23] the votes that were cast, a score of 4 to 4, where
[00:25:27] we would have a tie, when we look at it from this perspective,
[00:25:30] where today's session at the Supreme Court did not analyze
[00:25:34] the object, but rather a point of order, it is possible at this
[00:25:38] moment to make an interpretation and reach a conclusion, how
[00:25:41] this tie-breaking vote will be carried out, whether it favors
[00:25:45] a possible defendant, who would be the figure of Minister Alexandre de
[00:25:48] Moraes, or an... administrative matter, where in this
[00:25:52] case, Minister Faquim would be the
[00:25:55] one responsible for bringing us a
[00:25:58] verdict in this case.
[00:26:01] Well, uh. First it should be noted
[00:26:04] that the procedure we are
[00:26:07] observing is largely
[00:26:11] regulated by articles 134,
[00:26:14] 135 of the internal rules of the Supreme Federal
[00:26:17] Court. However, uh this is
[00:26:20] an unprecedented case, uh with
[00:26:23] some situations not regulated. This was much
[00:26:26] discussed today, uh during the heated
[00:26:30] debates we had. Now with the
[00:26:33] request for a view by Minister Flávio
[00:26:36] Dino, we will have to wait up to 90
[00:26:40] days for the minister to form his
[00:26:43] conviction, because in theory, uh Flávio
[00:26:46] Dino, uh and any minister has the right
[00:26:49] to request a view when they understand that
[00:26:52] they need to better study the process or the
[00:26:55] preliminary matter in today's case. So he forms his
[00:26:59] conviction in up to 90 days. He needs to
[00:27:03] present uh his
[00:27:06] form his conviction the debate on this
[00:27:10] preliminary matter and be
[00:27:13] reinserted in the agenda. If within
[00:27:16] 90 days, uh the minister remains without any
[00:27:20] decision, which should not happen, uh the
[00:27:23] process, the debate, alas, is again
[00:27:27] reinserted in the agenda for uh discussion of this
[00:27:30] preliminary matter. Here another point.
[00:27:33] We are talking so that the population understands well that we have
[00:27:37] a main request and a preliminary request by
[00:27:41] order, as they say, that is, before
[00:27:44] discussing the main request, uh, the
[00:27:46] ministers propose, some of them, that this preliminary matter
[00:27:50] be decided. And what is the main request? It is whether or not to
[00:27:54] authorize an investigation uh about
[00:27:57] uh Minister Alexandre de Moraes based
[00:28:00] on indications, because we don't have any proof yet,
[00:28:04] of the indications, however, that arise uh in the report
[00:28:07] of the federal police in the in the inquiry, in the
[00:28:10] investigation into the master case. Well, uh
[00:28:14] today when the session began and this was
[00:28:17] expected, the ministers who are, let's say,
[00:28:21] tending, I'm being very
[00:28:23] very careful here, tending
[00:28:27] more towards Alexandre de Moraes, unfortunately the Court is
[00:28:30] divided.
[00:28:32] They, uh I say here, I mention Zanin, uh
[00:28:36] uh Flávio Dino himself,
[00:28:40] Gilmar Mendes, uh these ministers
[00:28:43] added to Carmen Lúcia's vote, right? who voted
[00:28:47] for the consolidation of processes,
[00:28:50] proposed a preliminary question. Before we talk
[00:28:54] about the main issue, let's decide a preliminary question. And
[00:28:57] what is it? They understand that uh the
[00:29:01] authorization for about Minister Alexandre de
[00:29:04] Moraes must be decided in
[00:29:07] conjunction with a possible or perhaps
[00:29:10] probable authorization for investigation into
[00:29:14] Minister Mendonça uh from
[00:29:17] uh the reaction of Minister Alexandre de
[00:29:21] Moraes as soon as that material
[00:29:24] published by Mendonça became public. In
[00:29:27] other words, what we are seeing today is
[00:29:31] whether the Supreme Court will determine
[00:29:34] or not the consolidation of the two cases, of the
[00:29:38] two decisions to be taken in
[00:29:41] the same session. And
[00:29:45] then, uh the decision on
[00:29:48] whether or not to authorize an investigation against both is
[00:29:52] conditioned, it cannot be decided before
[00:29:55] this preliminary decision presented today and
[00:29:59] voted on today. We had the vote of... uh for
[00:30:03] uh the consolidation of Zanin, of
[00:30:06] Gilmar Mendes, uh Carmen Lúcia
[00:30:10] also. Uh now Flávio, Minister Flávio
[00:30:14] Dino should also vote for the
[00:30:16] consolidation. Fux uh voted for
[00:30:20] maintaining the separation, right? As should
[00:30:23] Faquim, who should follow uh this
[00:30:26] voted for separation.
[00:30:30] Therefore, we have to wait now.
[00:30:33] the return of the debate after the view requested by
[00:30:36] Minister uh Flávio Dino. Now we can
[00:30:40] comment in a little while that there is a political content
[00:30:44] that is guiding, that is directing this
[00:30:48] this debate today directed, in addition to the technical-legal
[00:30:52] issue. Professor, I want to address that point in a moment,
[00:30:55] but first, so we don't change the subject, I want to bring to those who are watching us.