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[00:00:00] Sax is the director of Columbia University's Center for Sustainable Development,
[00:00:03] of President
[00:00:04] of the UN Sustainable Development Solutions Network and former advisor to UN Secretaries
[00:00:08] general, General
[00:00:09] of Kofinanan, Bankimoon and Antonio Gutierez, he's in Rome in
[00:00:12] Italy. Professor Sax, thanks so much for coming back on going
[00:00:16] underground, it's quite quite a while, I'm not going to ask you why you're in Rome
[00:00:20] immediately, but four years then since the UN general assembly
[00:00:24] of resolution against Russia, I mean apart
[00:00:27] from threats of mass killing from Trump and Netanyahu at the UN General
[00:00:31] of Assembly, which we might talk about. What did you detect
[00:00:35] uh 12 years on since the coup in Ukraine at the UN General
[00:00:39] Assembly in New York? Well, these wars continue
[00:00:43] to rage because it seems nobody wants to speak the
[00:00:46] truth, and nobody wants to acknowledge
[00:00:49] ground realities. The war in Ukraine is a
[00:00:53] war that came as as you mentioned with a coup
[00:00:57] that overthrew a Ukrainian president, so
[00:01:00] of NATO could enlarge all
[00:01:02] the way to Russia's border?
[00:01:04] when the United States pushed the
[00:01:08] Europeans to agree to commit to Ukraine's
[00:01:12] membership in NATO, then German chancelor
[00:01:16] Merkel wrote in her diary that this was, as
[00:01:20] she knew,
[00:01:21] in tanto amount to a declaration of war. That's the way that the Russians would
[00:01:25] see it, and she was right, she
[00:01:28] of wasn't strong enough to resist George. W. Bush, she
[00:01:31] should have, we have been a slide to war
[00:01:35] ever since 2008, when US push for this
[00:01:39] NATO enlargement, 2014 started the war with the
[00:01:43] US backed coup on February
[00:01:46] 22nd, 2014,
[00:01:50] and Europeans have gone
[00:01:53] with gusto, denying truth, denying logic,
[00:01:57] denying
[00:01:58] me the off-ramps to peace - and till today they are the
[00:02:01] war-mongers right now, they're championing the war, they're
[00:02:05] of talking about escalation, they're talking about
[00:02:07] remilitarizing Germany, God forbid, but this
[00:02:11] is the way things go. The
[00:02:14] of only glimmer, the only glimmer
[00:02:17] of light at the UN General Assembly was that
[00:02:21] the German foreign minister at least sat down
[00:02:25] for 20 minutes with his Russian
[00:02:27] of counterpart. It doesn't seem like much, but was the first
[00:02:31] time in years that that has happened. i've
[00:02:34] been pressing and writing open letters to chancelor
[00:02:38] merts and publishing pretty much non-stop in the german
[00:02:42] media hawk hawk because
[00:02:44] remember german reunification in
[00:02:48] 1990 came because you, the German leaders
[00:02:52] promised that NATO wouldn't move one inch
[00:02:55] eastworth. go talk, go learn what the
[00:02:58] Russian... point of view is, and when
[00:03:02] you understand the Russian point of view, this war could stop
[00:03:06] in a day on sensible terms that are sensible for
[00:03:09] Russia, for Ukraine and for Europe, and that's
[00:03:13] what I continue to hope for. You did advise Antonio Guteres, so did
[00:03:17] you get to manage to see him in New York and ask him
[00:03:21] why, as many have around the world, why the UN has not taken a
[00:03:25] more
[00:03:27] of muscular role and conven some kind of conference
[00:03:29] of in a new? space of course i mean we're hoping there'll be a conference here in the
[00:03:33] uae soon, well sure hope so,
[00:03:36] you know, all
[00:03:38] of of these wars that are raging right now,
[00:03:41] actually have, if i may put it this
[00:03:44] of way,
[00:03:45] of straightforward of exit ramps, the war in Ukraine
[00:03:49] would end by Ukraine returning to
[00:03:52] neutrality, which is what it was before the US
[00:03:55] of backed coup by NATO saying, okay, okay, we
[00:03:59] won't. to
[00:04:00] of Russia's border, and having an armistice
[00:04:04] line where both sides say, we have
[00:04:07] disagreements on borders, but we're not going to pursue them
[00:04:11] through
[00:04:12] in military means, the war in Gaza, the
[00:04:16] genocide in Gaza will end one of two
[00:04:20] ways a state of Palestine alongside a state of
[00:04:24] of Israel, or one binational state in which
[00:04:28] both the Palestinian. arabs and the Israeli
[00:04:31] Jews live in one state, either way,
[00:04:35] we need that, because the current way of a
[00:04:39] ruthlessly murderous Israeli state backed by
[00:04:42] of Europe and the United States is unforgivable, absolutely
[00:04:46] unforgivable, and the war in Iran is the
[00:04:50] of dumbest
[00:04:51] of all possible wars. President Trump
[00:04:55] brags that six previous presidents
[00:04:58] resisted it, but he... did it, I don't think that's a matter of bragging,
[00:05:02] I think it's a matter
[00:05:04] of the most shocking inconfidence that we probably
[00:05:07] of ever had in that office, but the war
[00:05:10] in with Iran, which... was a
[00:05:14] war of aggression and murder the Iranian leadership
[00:05:18] on February 28 uh of this
[00:05:21] year will end simply when the United
[00:05:25] States leaves. We don't even need an agreement,
[00:05:28] because if the US leaves, Iranians are going to open the straight
[00:05:32] off for moves wide open to sell oil and the rest
[00:05:36] the Gulf region where you are and all the rest will go
[00:05:40] back to normal life. "It's the US that provoked
[00:05:44] this with Israel, it's the US that kept it going, there
[00:05:48] is no reason for this war to continue, another hour, the United States
[00:05:52] should turn around and go home as far as I'm concerned, nobody has to agree
[00:05:55] anything, if you've done something unbelievably stupid, stop
[00:05:59] doing it. Yeah, but did you get to speak to Antonio Gateras, are you
[00:06:03] used to advise, why is he not organizing anything? I didn't, I
[00:06:07] didn't, I, I, I didn't speak to him this time because he was
[00:06:11] sitting on the podium."
[00:06:12] I was there cringing with every word of my
[00:06:16] president Donald Trump who said he had a hard
[00:06:19] choice to make, whether to make Iran a great
[00:06:23] country. I don't think he realizes Iran was
[00:06:27] a great country 2500 years ago, 10 times older
[00:06:31] than the United States, thank you, but any event, whether to do that
[00:06:35] or whether to annihilate Iran and send everybody to
[00:06:38] help, and this is a president the United States speaking this way.
[00:06:43] so yes, the UN has
[00:06:46] huge role, fundamental role, but the United
[00:06:50] States really blocks the role, yes, so the un, the UN
[00:06:54] has no role arguably, I mean back to Ukraine, I understand Jake
[00:06:57] Sullivan told you before Russia went in in
[00:07:01] 2022 that there'd be no NATO expansion, I'm just thinking
[00:07:04] what, what he said to me, specific, yeah, go ahead, I'm
[00:07:08] just the reason I'm talking is like, why has
[00:07:11] the UN secretary? had done absolutely nothing to stop a war in Europe,
[00:07:15] the UN was only created because the end of another war in
[00:07:18] Europe. I believe the UN should do
[00:07:22] lot more and can do lot more, but the reason that
[00:07:26] it is paralyzed as it is, is essentially the
[00:07:30] United States says we don't obey any
[00:07:34] rules, and the you, even Trump said, by the
[00:07:38] way, people will remember, when he was asked, are you
[00:07:42] bound? by international law, he said, I'm not
[00:07:45] bound by anything but my own morality, he said, by
[00:07:49] my will, that's the only thing that binds me, this
[00:07:53] is kind of madness, frankly, this is an old
[00:07:56] man who doesn't have all the
[00:08:00] marbles together as far as although
[00:08:02] it should be said, Trump has done a lot more for peace arguably than
[00:08:06] anything the UN has done as regards the war in Europe, at least Trump has set
[00:08:09] up meetings, at least Trump set up meetings. anchorage
[00:08:13] and tried rhetorically, rhetorically while at
[00:08:17] the same time supplying the weapons. I won't go that far,
[00:08:21] because he said in anchored
[00:08:23] privately, well NATO won't
[00:08:26] enlarge, but he didn't say it publicly because he's
[00:08:29] incompetent, and then when he was opposed by the military
[00:08:33] industrial complex in the United States and in Europe
[00:08:37] and by Zelensky, rather than being president the United States, he just
[00:08:41] back down and... That's why the Russians are saying, okay, what
[00:08:45] is all of this, you told us things you don't follow
[00:08:48] through, this is unfortunately the way it goes, unless you have a
[00:08:52] competent president, so I don't unfortunately uh
[00:08:56] give give many points for having a meeting and
[00:09:00] failing to follow through, and I give even fewer
[00:09:04] points for a complete, total failure
[00:09:07] to communicate basic truths, what is needed to end
[00:09:11] this wars. for a president the United States and a chancelor of Germany
[00:09:15] to say, NATO won't enlarge, that's the one
[00:09:19] sentence that's going to end this war, they won't say
[00:09:22] it. I'll get back to Europe a second, so do you want,
[00:09:25] do you think Putin made a mistake when he uh went to anchorage
[00:09:29] to meet Donald Trump, you think the Russians don't fully understand
[00:09:33] Trump? No, I don't, no, I don't, I don't
[00:09:36] think you make a mistake by trying, but I
[00:09:40] think that they are not sure. that it didn't work,
[00:09:44] putin famously said an interview that he gave
[00:09:48] in 2017 that he had by that time worked with
[00:09:52] three American presidents and
[00:09:55] they come into office with ideas, but then men in dark suits and blue
[00:09:59] ties come to tell them the way the world really is, and
[00:10:03] then you never hear of those ideas again, so Putin is
[00:10:07] very experienced with American presidents, he knows that they do
[00:10:11] not follow through. "and I don't think they're shocked
[00:10:15] by Trump's failure to follow through, I think they're disappointed, I
[00:10:19] think they hope, and I think it's always worth trying
[00:10:22] to have diplomacy. so I don't think
[00:10:26] that that's a matter of regret, to
[00:10:30] take that extra mile is extremely important, in fact what I
[00:10:34] completely think is the huge mistake of Europe
[00:10:37] is they don't even try diplomacy, they don't even know what it is, you
[00:10:41] you've been talking to the officials, I mean you've been writing letters, but you also have been
[00:10:45] talking to EU officials as far as I understand it, what is your, I
[00:10:49] mean, you're unable to persuade them, but what is your
[00:10:52] impression of why they don't even... seem to be that fearful
[00:10:56] the prospect of nuclear war? well, first of all,
[00:11:00] we have pundits and we have officials that say, oh, that's a
[00:11:04] bluff,
[00:11:05] you know, this threat of nuclear weapons. these
[00:11:08] people are so unbelievably
[00:11:12] reckless with your life and my life and my children's lives
[00:11:16] and my grandchildren's lives. i can't even tell you how disgusted I
[00:11:20] am by this blase
[00:11:23] attitude. we are. 'we are
[00:11:27] at dire risk of blowing ourselves up and
[00:11:31] to deny it and then just talk
[00:11:33] provocatively and Russia hate talk
[00:11:37] and oh yes maybe we can take Kaliningrad and on
[00:11:41] and on this kind of recklessness is
[00:11:45] shocking don't these people understand anything
[00:11:49] apparently not this is but by the way when I
[00:11:52] spoke with ' one very
[00:11:56] nice European official, and I said, just
[00:12:00] say NATO is not going to enlarge. He said,
[00:12:04] um, oh, well,
[00:12:05] you know, the United States has has said
[00:12:08] that to to President Putin, I said,
[00:12:12] uh, yeah, it may be true, they said it privately, they
[00:12:16] didn't follow through, and your government has never said it, so
[00:12:20] why don't you say it publicly, and he looked at a little
[00:12:23] quizically. like that was new thought,
[00:12:27] oh that's interesting, yeah, let me think about
[00:12:30] that, do they not understand
[00:12:34] what's going on? i don't know, i really don't know, it's a
[00:12:38] shocking to me that this is continued in this
[00:12:41] way for years, but i think that there is
[00:12:45] a tremendous amount of incompetence
[00:12:49] and awardices and unwillingness
[00:12:52] these politicians to... admit basic
[00:12:56] truths and that that keeps this going, it's just
[00:13:00] absolutely disastrous. professor Jeff Sax, I'll stop you there
[00:13:04] more from the director of Columbia University Center for sustainable
[00:13:07] development after this
[00:13:09] break.
[00:13:18] With joy in my heart and determination in my mind, I
[00:13:22] strive to keep the beautiful legacy of... My father, Samara
[00:13:26] Machel, alive and relevant to Africa today. My dad
[00:13:30] was visionary leader who fought tirelessly and
[00:13:33] selflessly for the liberation of our people in
[00:13:37] Mozambique and in Africa from colonialism. That's
[00:13:40] commitment to panafricanism taught us the strength of
[00:13:44] unity and collaboration across borders. Let us
[00:13:48] honor his memory by continuing his fight
[00:13:52] for better Africa, a continent that's strives for
[00:13:55] the renewed liberation, true independence and
[00:13:59] stands united for the betterment of all. this is
[00:14:03] our continent, the future is in our
[00:14:06] hands.
[00:14:18] welcome back to going underground, i'm still here with the president the UN sustainable development
[00:14:21] solutions network, professor Jeffrey sacks. professor sacks, you tell... me in part one
[00:14:25] about uh how a unnamed EU official seems surprised
[00:14:29] that uh the uh declaration of uh no
[00:14:33] expansion of NATO might be helpful in the situation. I
[00:14:37] don't suppose you could tell me who the EU official is. I i could,
[00:14:41] but I won't buse it was a conversation, but
[00:14:44] but but just to just to
[00:14:47] say you oh it's
[00:14:50] so odd because this is actually someone I've known for a long
[00:14:54] time.
[00:14:55] "i i
[00:14:56] this was foreign minister, i know his leader also very well,
[00:15:00] i think actually they probably want peace, but they cannot
[00:15:03] bring themselves to say basic truths,
[00:15:07] and this comes back to the conversation you
[00:15:10] mentioned before the break that i had with Jake
[00:15:14] Sulvin, which was one the most surrealistic
[00:15:16] conversations uh that i've had. now Jake
[00:15:20] Sullivan was the national security advisor under
[00:15:23] byiden." and Putin put security
[00:15:27] agreement on the table to try to avert
[00:15:31] this escalation he did that in December uh
[00:15:35] 2021 and it didn't have everything the
[00:15:38] US would ever accept, but it had lot of good stuff,
[00:15:42] including stop the NATO enlargement, so I called
[00:15:45] Sulovan and and I had a long
[00:15:49] conversation with him, and the gist of it was,
[00:15:52] I said, Jake, just just announce NATO is not going
[00:15:56] to enlarge and uh and avoid a war, and he
[00:16:00] said Jeff, Nato's not going to win large, I said,
[00:16:03] Jake, are you kidding? you're
[00:16:07] gna have a war? oh, he said, first, we we can't announce that NATO is
[00:16:11] not going to win large, we have an open-door policy.
[00:16:15] so Jake, NATO's open-door policy is the biggest
[00:16:19] bunch of BS imaginable. does the US have an
[00:16:22] open-door policy for Mexico that it can have a Chinese
[00:16:26] military base, or Canada can have a Russian military base, there is that
[00:16:30] America's open-door policy. how about a little bit of
[00:16:33] principle here? there is no principle of open door. "you
[00:16:37] don't put your military on Russia's border just like you
[00:16:41] don't want Russia to put their military on the US border,
[00:16:45] and we almost flew up the world when Russia, the Soviet
[00:16:49] Union did that in October 1962,
[00:16:52] so just say Jake
[00:16:55] that NATO is not going to enlarge. He said, Jeff,
[00:16:58] NATO is not going to enlarge. I said, say it
[00:17:01] publicly, said, "No, no, it's not going to happen, you know
[00:17:05] that, Jeff, I said, 'okay, we're going to have a
[00:17:09] war because of something that's not going to
[00:17:11] happen, he said, don't worry, don't worry, there's not going to be a
[00:17:15] war. this is the same national, what
[00:17:18] do you make of that? this
[00:17:19] is the same national security advisor who wrote to clinton that
[00:17:23] the USA was on the same side as al-qaeda in
[00:17:27] Syria, do you think he was just lying to you or he
[00:17:30] was that in competent that he didn't realize what the policy
[00:17:34] was? no, i think
[00:17:37] that um, I think the level of
[00:17:40] incompetence in our governments is
[00:17:43] staggering, actually, just staggering,
[00:17:47] and they believe that they can say anything without
[00:17:51] consequence, so they can twist
[00:17:55] things, they can create their own realities. It's a
[00:17:58] staggering incompetence is my my view of this, I don't
[00:18:02] think it was just line to me, because he was saying things that weren't
[00:18:06] exactly. lies, they were just foolish, foolishness,
[00:18:10] sounds like a lie, it sounds like a lie to many people, I mean, I've
[00:18:14] got to say that Sikoski, the Polish foreign minister will be at the Warsaur security
[00:18:18] conference today, famously saying you can kill lot of people, but you cannot win,
[00:18:22] the Russian empire is fallen, Russia lost the crimean war, lost the
[00:18:25] Russia, Japanese war, lost the first world war in Afghanistan, lost the
[00:18:29] cold war, Ben Hodges, the former US Army, Europe
[00:18:33] commander, said Finland alone would crush Russian
[00:18:36] forces. "the European Union Defense and space commission said, if we
[00:18:40] continue to be afraid of Russian escalation, we'll encourage Putin escalate
[00:18:43] more,
[00:18:45] time and time again, the speakers at this forum will be
[00:18:48] saying, I mean, the ex-nato military committee
[00:18:52] chair admil said, our whole of society, he's talking about
[00:18:56] western Europe, I presume, our whole of society effort must now be
[00:18:59] structured to withstand a hot conflict with
[00:19:03] Russia, these people are
[00:19:06] so..."
[00:19:08] going to, I'm going to double down, these people are so inconfident, it's
[00:19:11] beyond belief, it's not only war profiteering,
[00:19:15] although some them do that, it is
[00:19:18] incredible incompetence, I know these people, I know
[00:19:22] many them, not all them, I, I
[00:19:23] know, I, I won't go into
[00:19:27] personalities, but I know people for many, many decades, in fact
[00:19:30] I had was senior advisor to the Polish government, I helped them a
[00:19:34] lot, thank you, in the late 80s. in the early
[00:19:38] 1990s at the same time that I was meeting with the
[00:19:41] chancellor Cole and the same time I was advising President Gorbachov and the
[00:19:45] same time I was advising president and the same time I was advising
[00:19:49] Ukrainian President Kuchma and I
[00:19:52] know how the United States so
[00:19:55] profoundly messed up yes it's incompetence
[00:19:59] mixed with humorous all these people are arrogant they
[00:20:03] don't know history they're kill they're taking other people's
[00:20:06] lives. "of course they have no accountability, so there are
[00:20:10] many different dimensions to it, but I'm going to double down on
[00:20:13] incompetence is being a very major factor. We need governments
[00:20:17] of people who know what they're doing, and of course they
[00:20:21] have to care not to get lot of people killed, and so it's two
[00:20:25] criteria, some decency and some competence. I
[00:20:29] mean, the Trump administration is sending the former special
[00:20:33] presidential envoy, Keith Kellog, and the
[00:20:36] commissioner." for US European Command,
[00:20:40] Alexas Grinkovic, Kellog
[00:20:44] is, Kellog is a hardliner,
[00:20:46] Kelog, absolutely. could not
[00:20:50] put together a coherent thought when he was the formal
[00:20:54] advisor uh, last time I saw Kellog was on
[00:20:57] the uh on on the floor the UN general assembly year
[00:21:01] ago schmoozing with
[00:21:03] the with mr with the minister Sakorsky uh this is
[00:21:07] not someone who was pursuing peace or who knew what he was doing well in
[00:21:11] fairness Trump demoted him arguably but the current US Nato representative
[00:21:15] is guy called Matthew Wittaker who's on the record for saying the answer to Russia should be
[00:21:19] more support. for Ukraine. I suppose my question to you
[00:21:22] is, you know that there was a fair degree of opposition to
[00:21:26] Putin now within Russia, that he's not prosecuting this as
[00:21:30] well as he might do, and is being too
[00:21:33] liniant as the drone attacks on Moscow,
[00:21:36] the civilian casualties caused by MI6 and
[00:21:40] CIA Intel guided drones. What do you think Russia
[00:21:44] should do given that uh this is the kind of thing they say? This is you
[00:21:48] know Gabriel - Lansburgus the ex-Lithuania, foreign minister,
[00:21:52] Lithuania, just changed their nuclear weapons doctrine, said we are merely
[00:21:56] postponing a war that will swallow the rest of Europe if we don't defeat Russia on
[00:22:00] the battlefield. From Lithuania, can
[00:22:04] you believe, it's just
[00:22:07] so unbelievable,
[00:22:09] what is, it it's a little bit like Israel, but even
[00:22:13] even radically more so, which is they think the
[00:22:17] US, that they can say anything, that they can spew... as much
[00:22:20] anti-Russia hatred that they can talk about defeating
[00:22:24] a nuclear superpower with the
[00:22:27] 1,600 deployed nuclear weapons and
[00:22:31] about 6,000 in total, that they can say all of this because they
[00:22:35] think the US has their back. this
[00:22:38] is actually not how the world works and they
[00:22:42] are so reckless and stupid to talk in these
[00:22:46] terms and please i don't want anyone to call me a
[00:22:50] Putin apologist on this, because I have a
[00:22:54] presidential award from Estonia because I helped the Baltic
[00:22:57] states, I worked with Estonia, helped them introduce their national
[00:23:01] currency, got an award from their president, one the highest
[00:23:05] civilian awards, I'm not anybody's apologist,
[00:23:08] I just find what is being said right now,
[00:23:12] suicidal and unbelievably stupid and
[00:23:16] unbelievably devoid of historical awareness.
[00:23:20] and unbelievably reckless, just reckless
[00:23:24] and who the hell is lithuaniaa
[00:23:26] to talk about defeating Russia, come
[00:23:29] on, we absolutely
[00:23:33] have to behave like grown ups if we're going to survive and if we're going to
[00:23:37] save this world for our children and grandchildren, and these people are
[00:23:41] not behaving like grown-ups. anyone who's watching this program who also
[00:23:44] watches lot of uh western European broadcasts or American
[00:23:48] broadcasts, well the wire age Reuters associated press will say
[00:23:52] everything you've said is kind of Putin talking point. How is the
[00:23:55] media helped to promote the continuation
[00:23:59] of this war and the horrific numbers of
[00:24:03] dead and wounded on the front? the
[00:24:06] media is mouth piece for the military
[00:24:10] industrial conflicts in the United States
[00:24:12] and I counted in
[00:24:16] 2022 to 2023 in the first year the war.
[00:24:20] "the New York Times used the word unprovoked to
[00:24:24] refer to Russia's invasion, unprovoked, it used that
[00:24:28] word 26 times on the opinion
[00:24:31] pages, so I asked the
[00:24:33] editor in the opinion pages, let me
[00:24:37] write one high 700
[00:24:41] words to explain why this war was
[00:24:45] provoked, and she wouldn't let me do it, and I went around and
[00:24:49] around and..." for months, i couldn't get 700
[00:24:53] words, didn't even care if it was in print, i said just make it online, you
[00:24:57] have endless capacity online, these
[00:25:00] places don't want to hear facts,
[00:25:04] they don't want to debate, it's all closed up,
[00:25:08] and that's just the propaganda that we're living with right now, that's the
[00:25:12] tragedy, just finally, by the time this is being broadcast, we don't
[00:25:15] Israel or the united states might have deployed a nuclear attack on
[00:25:20] Iran, how would you advise the Iranian government in the
[00:25:23] circumstances given the seismic
[00:25:27] impact of this war? billions pushed - well,
[00:25:31] into poverty partly because the high inflation, let alone the mass
[00:25:35] casualty events we've seen in this region in the buzd uh
[00:25:38] since February. Look, Iran is, Iran
[00:25:42] is facing
[00:25:44] a an existential war. It was attacked in a
[00:25:48] brutal aggression. uh by the United States
[00:25:52] in Israel, I think people should
[00:25:55] remember that on the first day the attack, the
[00:25:59] leaders of Iran were together because the... were
[00:26:02] discussing the next round of negotiation,
[00:26:06] because
[00:26:06] there was a supposedly negotiating
[00:26:09] process underway, that's the American and
[00:26:13] Mosad style, which is, oh, get the other side
[00:26:17] to negotiate, and then when they're together, kill them, that
[00:26:20] is literally the policy that they followed,
[00:26:24] they were together to discuss what to say or how to respond in the
[00:26:28] next round of negotiation that was to take place in Vienna, the follow...
[00:27:02] years old, the history is that Persia has been there a
[00:27:06] very long time, and the Persian and the Iranian negotiators
[00:27:10] are very dignified, very intelligent, very well
[00:27:14] educated people, and the United States in Israel think that they're just
[00:27:18] targets for assassination, professor, professor Sax, unfortunately we
[00:27:22] run
[00:27:22] out of time, we'll have to have you on again to explain what what the
[00:27:26] advice might be, but thank you so much for joining us from Rome, thank you so much,
[00:27:30] great, thank you, thanks lot, that's it. for the show, our condolences
[00:27:34] to all those of you berieved or affected by NATO wars of aggression, we'll be back on
[00:27:38] Saturday with a brand new show, until then keep in touch
[00:27:40] of all our social media, if it's not censored in your country, head to our channel going underground tv on
[00:27:44] rumble.com to watch new and old episodes of going underground here
[00:27:46] saturday.
[00:30:27] welcome to crossstock bns where all things are
[00:30:30] considered. and its infrastructure
[00:30:33] being destroyed, the American administration makes an energy deal with Russia.
[00:30:37] Meanwhile, NATO Brass gathers in Kieve to assess the
[00:30:41] damage they have brought about. Also, can the Mecca defense Alliance
[00:30:45] save the House of Saad? Is new order coming about in the
[00:30:49] Middle East? To discuss these issues and more, I'm joined by my
[00:30:53] guest George Samueli in Budapest, he's a podcast for the Gogle, which be found on
[00:30:56] YouTube in Locals and here in Moscow, we cross the marks.