SUDAN — broadcast
20261012 030000 UTC
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[00:00:00] welcome to a new episode of the Political
[00:00:04] war in Forum. In this war, many positions have changed,
[00:00:07] and the Justice
[00:00:10] aware of what and Equality Movement
[00:00:11] The first stop in this is one of the most changing its position. The
[00:00:16] years of war began on the lives, then it took up arms alongside the armed forces,
[00:00:20] and today it says
[00:00:24] that its battle is a defense of the state, and that the end
[00:00:27] of the road must be one army
[00:00:31] alone. But here, specifically, the
[00:00:34] questions begin: if there
[00:00:37] is one army, what will happen
[00:00:40] to the armies of the movements? And if the Justice and Equality Movement
[00:00:43] is heading towards becoming a political
[00:00:47] party, then why the rifle,
[00:00:50] and when will it put it down? And what
[00:00:55] first. The movement remains of the Juba agreement after a war that brought
[00:00:58] pressure in the armed movements back to the battlefield? Once
[00:01:02] again, the questions of the present
[00:01:04] that gathered at the tonight lead us, in one way or another, also to the past,
[00:01:08] to 2008, to Omdurman
[00:01:11] specifically, and to
[00:01:14] and the military component remained a man who was at the heart
[00:01:14] asked them in one of one of the most brutal stations of the
[00:01:18] occurred in Darfur from Sudanese conflict. Between that day and today,
[00:01:22] an experience in which he spent years
[00:01:26] entire nineties. And this, in of his life behind bars and lived under a death sentence.
[00:01:30] Then he came out to find Sudan facing
[00:01:34] that position. They spoke with the ambassadors. The new transformations and another war,
[00:01:37] and questions that end
[00:01:40] after. I welcome my guest,
[00:01:43] Dr. Abdelaziz Noor Asher,
[00:01:46] advisor to the head of the Justice and Equality Movement. Welcome, Doctor. Welcome, brother
[00:01:49] Talal. And greetings to you
[00:01:52] and the brothers present with us,
[00:01:56] people used to farm. They would meet in and to the esteemed viewers. Welcome.
[00:01:59] I want to say that I welcome the mysterious man. This is how
[00:02:02] he describes you, and your political opponents describe you as a man
[00:02:05] Perhaps for hundreds of years who rarely appears, sparing in his
[00:02:10] arms shoulder to shoulder appearances. And perhaps he is even called, in the manner of adventurers,
[00:02:13] "Leader Zero," and the keeper of Dr. Jibril Ibrahim's secrets,
[00:02:16] alongside Sultan Bishara Suleiman
[00:02:18] Therefore, it and others. Welcome, Doctor.
[00:02:22] Welcome, we are happy to extend a welcome in this episode
[00:02:26] to my esteemed guests on the commentary platform. I welcome Mr. Abdel Hafeez.
[00:02:31] Koddary, Deputy Head of the Justice and Equality Movement
[00:02:34] and Secretary of the Northern Region. Welcome.
[00:02:37] Welcome, my dear brother, and all the brothers in television. We thank God that we are now
[00:02:41] in the television building after what it has been
[00:02:45] subjected to by the
[00:02:49] that there were indeed embassies involved Janjaweed or the militias. You saw the extent of the destruction, the extent of the destruction.
[00:02:52] The welcome also extends to my guest, Mr.
[00:02:56] Soufiane Al-Basha,
[00:02:59] The group that participated in Deputy Head of the Justice and Equality Movement, Secretary of the Central Region. Welcome.
[00:03:03] pressure on us, but we rejected this Welcome. the And peace, mercy, and blessings of God be upon you. And I am happy today
[00:03:07] to be a participant in this
[00:03:11] forum, with the presence
[00:03:13] of Dr. Asher and Mr. Abdel
[00:03:16] by an external Hafeez in one of
[00:03:21] Sudan, we would the platforms for deliberation and political engagement.
[00:03:23] And I believe this is a new stage
[00:03:26] are the ones who announced that that has now begun in Sudan. And I hope that this
[00:03:30] episode will be one of the episodes
[00:03:34] different regions of Sudan, from that add
[00:03:36] to the political engagement in Sudan. God bless you. Thank you. I also, in particular,
[00:03:40] and on behalf of the program's family, thank you for your eagerness to attend from
[00:03:43] Al Jazeera and for bearing the hardship of travel despite your
[00:03:47] fever. I ask God to grant you a speedy recovery, God willing. Thank you.
[00:03:50] A welcome also extends to the commentators tonight,
[00:03:55] in Darfur. In to the debaters on the discussion platform. I welcome my
[00:03:58] guest, Mr.
[00:04:02] that They took place in the Nuba Mountains, and they took place in Amir Abdelmajid, the journalist, and the general editor of Al-Sahafa newspaper. Welcome, Mr.
[00:04:06] agreement Amir. Our presence today,
[00:04:09] And and our presence today in the spotlight,
[00:04:12] and as you said, Doctor,
[00:04:16] rarely appearing,
[00:04:18] and the talk about the issues. And I hope
[00:04:21] that people will be able
[00:04:24] to address the concerns
[00:04:27] of the street, in addition to
[00:04:30] the concerns of the movement itself, God willing. Welcome. Are you ready tonight?
[00:04:34] I am ready. I have no problem with
[00:04:38] I mean, to go into journalists represented today by Amir. Also,
[00:04:41] the welcome extends to the young participant
[00:04:45] and Equality Movement in with us always in the program, Hassan Abdel
[00:04:47] Rahman, researcher in international relations and specialist in
[00:04:51] colonialism. geopolitical studies. Hassan, strongly raised as a state welcome. Welcome, Professor
[00:04:54] Talal, and welcome to the family of Justice
[00:04:57] peace forces coming and Equality. And I hope it will be a wonderful episode, full of information
[00:05:01] and details that will be important for the political
[00:05:05] arena and for all the Sudanese people, God willing. Of course, we were keen
[00:05:08] on your participation because you say
[00:05:10] component was closer to reaching peace than that political figures like this never give us a chance
[00:05:13] for a confrontation between you as a young generation and them. Today, the
[00:05:17] opportunity is fully open to you, God willing. Okay,
[00:05:20] Dr. Abdelaziz, what should we start with?
[00:05:23] meeting, after more than 20
[00:05:28] arms, war,
[00:05:31] peace, and power, then again
[00:05:34] a new war, has the Justice and Equality Movement
[00:05:38] reached the state for which it took up arms
[00:05:42] effectively? This is a good opportunity for
[00:05:45] in-depth dialogue about the fundamental issues in the country,
[00:05:49] including the political
[00:05:50] reality.
[00:05:53] In this context, the movement's presence
[00:05:57] as a political actor in the political
[00:06:00] arena comes. The movement did not start
[00:06:04] by taking up arms
[00:06:07] is originally a movement for political and social change in Sudan,
[00:06:10] and it started with
[00:06:13] dialogue, but in
[00:06:17] light of the stubbornness that existed under the former regime, it led to reaching a stage
[00:06:20] where the movement's leaders
[00:06:23] were subjected to
[00:06:26] violence
[00:06:29] from the authorities at that time, to prisons,
[00:06:32] to displacement, to pursuit.
[00:06:35] Therefore, the movement finally resorted
[00:06:38] to the option of armed struggle.
[00:06:42] This was after the door to dialogue was closed. Yes, therefore, the movement's
[00:06:46] project is originally a political project, not a military
[00:06:49] project. The military project came later. We were forced
[00:06:53] into it. And this is why it is natural
[00:06:56] for the movement to return to the original
[00:06:59] project, which is political discourse
[00:07:03] and political dialogue as a means of social and political change in Sudan.
[00:07:06] Who forced you? The former regime.
[00:07:10] Of course, we started
[00:07:12] the dialogue. And the dialogue led to addressing very
[00:07:16] fundamental issues, issues of marginalization, issues
[00:07:19] of imbalance of power and wealth in Sudan. All
[00:07:23] these issues, the regime at that time
[00:07:26] was not prepared to discuss.
[00:07:31] was common in political circles that whoever
[00:07:34] wants to confront us should go
[00:07:37] and take up arms. That is why
[00:07:40] it was not the Justice and Equality Movement.
[00:07:43] I mean, those who took up arms before us were in the
[00:07:46] Democratic National Alliance, and before the movement,
[00:07:49] there was the
[00:07:53] SPLM and the movements that arose, and all
[00:07:57] these movements, in my opinion,
[00:08:00] were a natural development
[00:08:04] of the civil rights movement
[00:08:07] that began in the 1950s, as
[00:08:11] you know. Demands
[00:08:15] for federalism emerged
[00:08:17] in southern Sudan, and this was the main
[00:08:21] issue
[00:08:23] that was raised at the
[00:08:25] Juba conference in 1947, the Nuba
[00:08:29] Mountains Union, before the Nuba Mountains Union. The Beja conference was
[00:08:32] in 1958. The Nuba Mountains Union was in
[00:08:36] 1959. The Darfur Renaissance Front was in
[00:08:39] 1964. And all of these
[00:08:42] formed demands from
[00:08:46] the west, and from Kordofan, and from the south, and from
[00:08:49] the east. But by persisting in not
[00:08:52] responding to these legitimate
[00:08:54] demands,
[00:08:56] these movements later transformed
[00:08:59] these civil, societal demands
[00:09:03] related to development and
[00:09:06] stability at that time,
[00:09:09] all transformed into
[00:09:14] the East, and they took place in Darfur,
[00:09:17] and there were also many
[00:09:21] other military attempts other than
[00:09:25] these
[00:09:27] armed struggle movements. There were also attempts
[00:09:30] to change power by force, such as the coups
[00:09:34] that Sudan witnessed. And therefore, I believe
[00:09:37] that the background of this matter
[00:09:40] is related to our ability
[00:09:43] and the generation that governed Sudan at that time to respond
[00:09:46] to the vital demands
[00:09:50] of dialogue, and managing dialogue,
[00:09:52] and responding to the
[00:09:55] entitlements
[00:09:59] that were
[00:10:01] that emerged from
[00:10:04] And many
[00:10:07] of the countries that emerged from colonialism were able
[00:10:10] to meet the demands of their people for development and well-being, and were able
[00:10:14] to find a path to national unity, and
[00:10:18] thereby were able to avoid
[00:10:22] internal wars and stabilized. I mean, there are many models
[00:10:25] in Africa and in the Third World that were able
[00:10:28] to respond to these societal
[00:10:32] and political demands.
[00:10:35] But of course, this era was called the post-
[00:10:38] colonial era, which is an important era. And later, of course,
[00:10:42] unfortunately, many countries witnessed military
[00:10:45] coups
[00:10:49] repeatedly in many countries. I mean, I believe that this issue
[00:10:53] is an issue related to the social history of Sudan
[00:10:57] to a large extent. Yes, movements that begin with demands,
[00:11:00] dialogue is absent, the voice
[00:11:02] of the rifle rises.
[00:11:05] Perhaps the Juba peace finally came with a different vision
[00:11:09] that made the movement temporarily put down its weapons
[00:11:12] and conclude an agreement that led to the
[00:11:16] Juba peace. Throughout the life
[00:11:19] of the movement since its establishment
[00:11:22] in 2001. And of course,
[00:11:25] the idea started before this,
[00:11:28] before 2001. And the movement
[00:11:31] was established in 2001, and the armed
[00:11:34] struggle began in 2002. Throughout
[00:11:37] this period, until we reached the Juba
[00:11:41] peace station, the movement did not close any
[00:11:44] opportunity for dialogue and negotiation.
[00:11:48] There were many rounds in Abuja, in Dar es Salaam, in
[00:11:51] Tanzania, in Tripoli, in Abéché, and
[00:11:56] in Doha. All these
[00:11:59] forums were responded to
[00:12:02] by the movement, but the regime
[00:12:06] at that time was not ready to reach a real
[00:12:09] peace agreement. Therefore, the movement continued until
[00:12:12] we reached this agreement, which came
[00:12:15] after the fall of the former regime. But you didn't
[00:12:18] get a break. I mean, seven months later, you found
[00:12:21] yourselves now facing a new war after you broke
[00:12:25] neutrality in November 2023.
[00:12:29] During the seven-month period, the movement was neutral, and then
[00:12:32] it moved to taking up
[00:12:35] with the armed forces.
[00:12:38] Of course, it is natural that the movement,
[00:12:42] when it returned to Khartoum
[00:12:45] and to the homeland, its concern was to participate in building
[00:12:49] the homeland, consolidating
[00:12:53] peace, and achieving
[00:12:55] stability, because
[00:12:58] the war, I mean,
[00:13:01] certainly affected everything
[00:13:05] throughout 20 years. Therefore, it is natural
[00:13:08] that the thinking was in a different direction, but
[00:13:11] before the last war, brother Talal,
[00:13:15] there was
[00:13:19] the political crisis that was ongoing.
[00:13:25] transitional period, the Freedom
[00:13:28] and Change, did not have
[00:13:32] a desire to reach peace
[00:13:34] with us.
[00:13:37] We spent about a month in Addis Ababa before
[00:13:40] the Juba peace agreement, and they refused
[00:13:43] to reach with us a formula
[00:13:47] that would allow the armed forces to enter the country and be
[00:13:50] part of the political process. What was their argument? Their argument
[00:13:54] without without
[00:13:56] I mean,
[00:13:59] there was no clear argument or clear justification.
[00:14:03] But while we were discussing
[00:14:07] a common vision or
[00:14:10] debating in Addis Ababa with most of the Freedom
[00:14:13] and Change leaders, the Political
[00:14:17] Declaration was announced,
[00:14:18] and the Political
[00:14:22] Declaration was the foundation upon
[00:14:25] which the issue of the Constitutional Document was built.
[00:14:29] Therefore, it was a rejection
[00:14:31] of the entire issue of peace. That is why
[00:14:35] we resorted to the Juba agreement. It was possible
[00:14:39] to shorten the time and the
[00:14:42] period and reach peace
[00:14:45] more quickly, but
[00:14:48] the rejection and abstention of the Forces of Freedom and Change at that time. But why,
[00:14:51] Doctor, when at that time it was a demand
[00:14:55] for the people? Why was it rejected? It is the same prevailing
[00:14:59] understanding now. Why were they insisting that this framework agreement
[00:15:02] should be a limited agreement for a small
[00:15:05] force? Why were they driven by the idea of monopolizing power
[00:15:09] and they believed that overnight,
[00:15:12] they found power, and therefore they were not
[00:15:15] willing to share this transitional period.
[00:15:19] That is why they rejected
[00:15:22] and being part of the transitional period itself.
[00:15:28] That is why we spent a whole year in Juba,
[00:15:31] and in fact, the military
[00:15:35] the other group, the Forces of Freedom and Change. You make this testimony
[00:15:39] in favor of the military component despite the war between you. Yes,
[00:15:42] yes, despite that, without them, we would not have reached peace.
[00:15:46] So they were closer to reaching
[00:15:50] peace with us. And this led to the Juba
[00:15:53] peace agreement. And when we came, we
[00:15:56] formed the government with the three
[00:16:00] components: the military
[00:16:03] component,
[00:16:05] the Forces of Freedom and Change,
[00:16:09] and the Juba peace forces. And this
[00:16:12] triangle, of course, witnessed
[00:16:16] an amendment to the Constitutional Document, and
[00:16:19] the Juba peace forces were added.
[00:16:23] And the partnership became tripartite. And this
[00:16:25] partnership did not continue due to the conflict
[00:16:29] that arose between the Forces of Freedom
[00:16:32] and Change, the military component, and the military component. And this led
[00:16:35] to
[00:16:38] the gatherings
[00:16:42] palace and led to the October
[00:16:45] decisions, and thus the departure of the Forces of Freedom and Change.
[00:16:48] And the peace forces
[00:16:51] in power.
[00:16:54] And of course, the
[00:16:57] so-called framework agreement
[00:17:01] was designed, and this is very important, to bring this group
[00:17:04] back to power by means of
[00:17:08] the embassies or what
[00:17:09] was called the Quartet at that time.
[00:17:14] These embassies were determined very strongly
[00:17:17] to bring these people back
[00:17:21] through this vision that was designed.
[00:17:23] And
[00:17:25] they were
[00:17:27] refusing the idea of
[00:17:30] expanding the base of participation,
[00:17:33] despite the other's
[00:17:37] vision that expanding the base of participation
[00:17:40] in the transitional period would lead to the stability of the government
[00:17:44] and the stability of the transitional period, and then
[00:17:47] the transition towards democratic transformation. This matter was not
[00:17:50] acceptable to them, and therefore it led to the political deadlock
[00:17:54] at that time, and led to
[00:17:58] I mean, the polarization
[00:18:01] of the Rapid Support Forces
[00:18:07] from the military component by those same embassies
[00:18:11] and the creation of an alliance between
[00:18:15] the Rapid Support Forces and the Forces of Freedom and Change. And this ultimately
[00:18:18] led to the outbreak of war due to external
[00:18:22] support, and due to your reports that you had
[00:18:27] in inviting us to the dialogue. They asked us to participate in this government
[00:18:30] and share, and we refused this. I mean,
[00:18:33] in these ambassadors, the Quartet ambassadors were
[00:18:37] present and they were insistent and they exercised
[00:18:41] agreement because the agreement was made by embassies.
[00:18:44] We cannot accept
[00:18:47] that our national will
[00:18:50] be managed
[00:18:53] force. Therefore, we rejected this. And those who
[00:18:57] accepted this, and those who insisted
[00:19:00] on this,
[00:19:03] either you accept this agreement or
[00:19:07] war. And in the end, the entire Sudanese people
[00:19:11] are witnessing a real and declared
[00:19:14] presence. I mean, videos exist that were
[00:19:17] one of the arguments that were used after that, so
[00:19:20] that they were the ones who wanted to ignite the war. You said
[00:19:23] a witness was fabricated. From where, according to
[00:19:26] your testimony? You, the media people, can distinguish
[00:19:30] between what is fabricated and what is real. I mean, this is
[00:19:33] easy. This is completely consistent with
[00:19:36] their position and their insistence
[00:19:39] yes, this
[00:19:44] must be implemented.
[00:19:47] some forces entered
[00:19:51] and exercised immense pressure on us,
[00:19:54] but we rejected this. And we are witnesses to that. And we are witnesses to what
[00:19:58] was said and the insistence of these Quartet
[00:20:00] embassies on the importance, on the necessity
[00:20:03] of implementing this framework agreement. We are witnesses to that
[00:20:07] completely. And you are in agreement with the military component. I
[00:20:11] just do not want to
[00:20:15] details of where these meetings took place,
[00:20:18] in which embassy, in which embassy
[00:20:21] is currently this Dr. Asher.
[00:20:23] This is very important. These are
[00:20:27] occurrences. These are occurrences, and there has also been a change.
[00:20:31] I mean, I do not want after the change has happened,
[00:20:34] how, I mean, the general atmosphere has changed.
[00:20:38] After these countries, their position has changed now to
[00:20:41] a positive position, always supporting the unity of Sudan.
[00:20:45] Therefore, we do not want to hold them accountable
[00:20:48] for what happened at that time. It is better
[00:20:51] that these embassies are known and the role of the Quartet
[00:20:55] in designing and making
[00:20:58] the framework agreement was known, and all this is known.
[00:21:01] I mean, it was live on air.
[00:21:04] You don't want to disclose more. This explains everything
[00:21:07] to the mysterious person I told you you always store
[00:21:10] secrets. I want to use this episode to the greatest extent
[00:21:14] possible and get details from you
[00:21:17] for history. You are now talking about something
[00:21:21] that is surrounded by a lot of ambiguity and a lot of facts are distorted. The viewer
[00:21:25] who is watching us now also says, "I hear Asher's words, and I hear
[00:21:29] different words from the Forces of Freedom and Change, and I hear different words from the military component,
[00:21:32] and each sings to their own tune." So sing
[00:21:35] to us about the real tune. I mean, as you were
[00:21:38] an eyewitness. Brother Talal, there is no more singing than that. I mean, these
[00:21:42] countries are known, and the Quartet was known, and they exerted
[00:21:48] the framework agreement. And they were the ones who insisted,
[00:21:51] and they were the ones who convinced. He was strongly
[00:21:55] attached to them. All of them without
[00:21:58] exception, the Quartet, all of them were
[00:22:01] insistent. And we even
[00:22:04] of the sessions, why are you insisting
[00:22:07] that you knew
[00:22:10] a group was present? The experience was a failure. They
[00:22:14] participated in power and failed to
[00:22:16] manage the state due to their lack of experience and their inability
[00:22:20] to deal with Sudan's issues. No one was defending
[00:22:24] ambassadors were silent. They were present. They were present. We ask
[00:22:27] the ambassadors, why do you insist that
[00:22:30] instead of us presenting a government that is based on a broad
[00:22:34] base and wide participation of the Sudanese people, this government
[00:22:38] calls for continuity
[00:22:42] and greater permanence than a government of a minority and a small
[00:22:45] group of activists? And you insist that they
[00:22:48] be so clear? And they were present, as I said. All
[00:22:51] of them were present.
[00:22:53] And
[00:22:56] an ambassador from the Quartet ambassadors
[00:23:00] was present, and we spoke
[00:23:03] to them about this, and
[00:23:06] they did not answer. They were concerned about these
[00:23:09] ambassadors, and the ambassadors spoke on their behalf. This was
[00:23:13] strange. I mean, we are in a dialogue between
[00:23:16] Sudanese, between Sudanese political forces, and the dialogue
[00:23:20] is in their presence. They
[00:23:22] are people whose will has been taken away. And this is, of course,
[00:23:26] one of the additional
[00:23:29] motives that made us reject the framework agreement, that this
[00:23:33] is a foreign product intended to control
[00:23:36] the administration
[00:23:37] of the country
[00:23:40] in a way that exploits these weak
[00:23:43] elements and exploits
[00:23:47] I mean, considering that they are the political force and
[00:23:50] the people who can run the country,
[00:23:54] and therefore they lack real will. This is one
[00:23:57] of the things that made us reject the framework agreement. If the
[00:24:01] framework agreement had been a comprehensive agreement and included the main
[00:24:05] political forces and included the broad formation of Sudan
[00:24:08] and the broad diversity of have agreed and we would have exited
[00:24:12] the political crisis with an agreement. But
[00:24:16] the framework agreement was a small and limited
[00:24:19] agreement, intended only to bring back
[00:24:22] those who left power to serve foreign agendas. I've spent a lot of time on this topic
[00:24:26] because there are very important statements. I will continue
[00:24:29] to follow up on it, but I want to move
[00:24:32] to Mr. Abdel Hafeez.
[00:24:35] Kedgrie. I will be transparent and clear,
[00:24:38] and perhaps I will adopt the voice of many viewers who are watching
[00:24:41] the episode. I was surprised
[00:24:44] that you are the Deputy Head of the Justice and Equality Movement. Honestly,
[00:24:48] if we are talking about transparent dialogue, as Dr. Asher said, let's
[00:24:51] start it in this episode. For me, it is very striking,
[00:24:55] and for many who may be watching the episode now, that he is now
[00:24:58] a person from River Nile, with no connection to Darfur,
[00:25:02] or to the demands of the movement, or
[00:25:05] and the same applies to Mr.
[00:25:07] Soufiane. What is your relationship with
[00:25:11] the Justice and Equality Movement? I mean, is the project so attractive?
[00:25:15] Are we facing a political structure that requires
[00:25:18] us to rally around this movement as a comprehensive political party?
[00:25:22] Please forgive me for this question, but I assure you that
[00:25:25] it is a question of many who are watching this episode, and I want to be
[00:25:29] completely transparent with you. Please go ahead.
[00:25:32] First of all, I joined the Justice 2017,
[00:25:35] approximately.
[00:25:37] I mean, before the fall
[00:25:40] of the former regime. So where were you
[00:25:43] at that time? I was a civil servant
[00:25:46] and responsible for the peace program director.
[00:25:50] I worked in DDR. I worked in peace initiatives before that,
[00:25:53] and I was aware, honestly,
[00:25:57] of all the problems that
[00:25:59] Sudan was facing, whether
[00:26:03] during the first
[00:26:06] the South. I was,
[00:26:10] I mean, in working circles,
[00:26:13] was happening in the war and its repercussions,
[00:26:16] and also what was happening in the Darfur war.
[00:26:19] It took place in Darfur after 2003, approximately.
[00:26:23] And though the war was in Darfur, I am very
[00:26:26] familiar with the details of the beginning
[00:26:29] of the war in Darfur, and we know
[00:26:32] that it almost started after
[00:26:35] 1986,
[00:26:38] approximately. Resolution No. 20 in the Constituent
[00:26:41] Assembly was issued
[00:26:44] during the government of Sadiq al-Mahdi. What did the resolution
[00:26:47] say? It established the Sudanese
[00:26:50] Peace Forces and was established by
[00:26:54] the Minister of Defense at that time.
[00:26:57] And it might have been intended to support
[00:27:01] the army, like the current Shura. This was an embryo
[00:27:04] at that time. Yes, indeed, at that time it was done,
[00:27:08] and he armed
[00:27:11] certain issues that were
[00:27:14] then the nucleus
[00:27:18] for the calamities that
[00:27:21] the armed robbery that took place from approximately the late
[00:27:24] eighties and continued until the
[00:27:28] the end, had a significant impact.
[00:27:31] An armed movement, and after that, the community was
[00:27:35] divided. The community, after Darfur was
[00:27:38] one thing, a single community,
[00:27:41] the community of Arabs, the community of African
[00:27:44] tribes, all of them were one interwoven
[00:27:48] and intermarried thing, and they were living as one.
[00:27:51] These people used to herd
[00:27:54] sheep, and these
[00:27:58] seasons and exchange benefits, common interests, and Darfur was,
[00:28:02] by the way, one of the safest lands of God, absolutely.
[00:28:07] in the past, until the eighties. This is true. Yes, until the eighties,
[00:28:11] Darfur's ancient history was one of the safest lands
[00:28:14] of God, a very safe country, and there was no
[00:28:17] weapons, no conflict, no fighting, etc. Rather, it
[00:28:21] used to supply the holy lands
[00:28:24] with Sultan Ali Dinar's caravan, and it used
[00:28:28] to supply the entire Islamic world
[00:28:30] with written copies of the Quran. Sultan Ali Dinar's caravan, and even
[00:28:34] before him, before Ali Dinar, the
[00:28:37] caravan used to carry more than a thousand written
[00:28:41] copies of the Holy Quran annually. by the hands of
[00:28:44] the Juniya. Of course, you say Juniya in Darfur. Juniya
[00:28:47] means that his ancestors, up to the 11th generation,
[00:28:51] must have been memorizers of the Book of God. That's what a Juniya
[00:28:54] is, but the term Juniya, I mean, the meaning
[00:28:57] of this term Juniya, but with an
[00:28:59] exception. All this work
[00:29:02] happened. I will prove to you that security was complete
[00:29:06] and very deep. It was not available anywhere
[00:29:09] in the world, and a country
[00:29:12] that was living on this image. This calamity happened,
[00:29:15] and I personally am very transparent about the reason.
[00:29:19] I am not here. I hold the Umma Party responsible. The
[00:29:22] Umma Party, you brought me back to '86 with Dar Hummel
[00:29:26] Party. I am very transparent in these matters,
[00:29:30] and I do not try at all to give anything because this history should not
[00:29:33] be attributed to me. It tells the present. If you do not
[00:29:37] set this history straight in its place, it will cause confusion
[00:29:40] for future generations. So that's why I will speak clearly. After that, the Umma
[00:29:44] Party has the historical responsibility, the historical responsibility for the armed looting
[00:29:48] that happened in Darfur, or it was perhaps
[00:29:51] the prelude to the war that happened after,
[00:29:54] approximately 2003,
[00:29:57] the end, it happened, a matter of
[00:30:01] burning, looting, and attacking many villages
[00:30:04] that were destroyed. And now most of the original inhabitants of
[00:30:08] Darfur, I say this because I am not being diplomatic. This is a matter of testimony,
[00:30:12] testimony before God and history. And God will ask
[00:30:15] us about it. And if we do not say the right thing and give testimony
[00:30:19] so that the Sudanese people know these meanings, this is harsh, very harsh talk, but we have
[00:30:23] to say it. It is also a historical party and a party that has its base and popularity,
[00:30:26] and so on. They bear responsibility. As if it was the nucleus,
[00:30:30] the Janjaweed was created by the Umma Party. Let me tell you,
[00:30:33] the beginning, the beginning of the Janjaweed, frankly, it started,
[00:30:37] it did not start, by the way, after.